Bicycle and Pedestrian Coordination Committee Meeting   10/15/2020

Okay, and yeah, I thought we would just go around really quickly and do introductions.

Just since there's a few folks, just a few folks who might be members of the public who might be new, I'm going to stop sharing my screen for a second and just really quickly introduce myself.

I'm Jessica and I am a transportation planner at the TJPDC.

And then I guess I'll call on people because that is probably the easiest.

Hello, my name is Bob Brown.

Hi, I'm Peter Ohms.

I'm with the Virginia

Thanks, Peter.

Hi, I'm Michael Barnes.

This is Amanda Poncy.

I'm the bicycle and pedestrian coordinator with the city.

Hello, I'm Brian Becker.

Thanks, Brian.

I thought you might be our member of the public, but I'm glad to see Albemarle County has some GIS folks here.

All right, next.

We'll just continue with introductions anyway.

Dan Mahone, Greenway-Blueways Supervisor for Albemarle County Parks.

Yeah, Sandy Shackelford with the PDC.

And I'll apologize right now.

I'm going to be multitasking.

Sandy.

Good morning, everybody.

Hey there.

Great.

Thank you for joining us.

So that's everyone.

And I appreciate us doing that because it helps me take attendance to include in our meeting summary.

So that was very helpful.

Great.

So our first item on our agenda is to talk about one map.

And thankfully we have Bob and Brian here to talk about what that looks like right now.

So I'm going to share my screen real quick.

Can we see it?

Yes, we can see it.

All right, so we have the county's data as well.

I haven't included it in here yet.

So everybody's done their part for the most part.

What we're waiting on at this point is the city and the county for COVID did this really interesting thing where we linked our ArcGIS online accounts and we can share certain

things for that and that we want to use that same technology but in its own outside of COVID basically so the county is working on getting permission to set it up and then once that's set up we're going to put it all in there and then

Right, so you'll be able to symbolize it, which means change how you want it to display.

Like right now, UDA stuff's green and the bike layers over here are blue, that kind of thing.

You get to make the decisions on what it'll look like, how you want to convey certain things.

And it'll all be ready.

Everything that we've agreed upon in that

Metadatasheet where it's like column values, everything.

I think that really gets at one of our comments from our last meeting where Ann Malik had some concerns about how shared use paths were going to show up and specifically those paths that might not officially be shared use, things that should be just for pedestrians or just for bikes or something like that.

Just checking with you, Bob, that that will be something that we will be able to do with that symbolization that we can show certain features as just being open to pedestrians or vice versa.

I'd imagine that's correct.

I just have to see.

Yeah, so we have this ownership type field and then there's a shared use.

I know I'm not exactly sure where it is.

And one of these fields indicate shared use.

You could filter for private shared use and then pull those out, that kind of thing.

But

You should have that ability.

If everybody's data is valid and has all that stuff filled out, you'd have the ability to filter out certain things you don't want to show.

Great.

If you don't mind, this is Kevin McDermott, Albemarle County.

Do we, and this maybe isn't necessarily for you, Bob, just for the group or maybe Jessica, do we know how we're planning to make this available to the public?

Is that something that is gonna be through the TJPDC or possibly through all of us?

And with that, I wanna just make sure getting to Anne's

issues with it and other issues maybe that she can bring up how we can make sure, be confident that what we're showing is what we want the public to be aware of and knowledgeable.

Like we don't want to direct the public to private trails or if there's planned trails out there that are, you know, maybe just

So I'll hand it over to Bob in just a second to answer all those technical questions.

But first, yes, the TJPDC is going to host it on our website.

I mean, we're going to do some sort of work around where we're actually using our GIS account or ArcGIS account to host it.

Bob can fill in the technical details on that, but it sounds like that will work and we will be able to host it on our site.

So you can always direct people to our site and there'll be a link that people can interact with the map.

through the TJPDC site.

As for your other questions, I think that that's something Bob can answer a little bit better.

But basically any, it sounds like, and Bob correct me if I'm wrong, anything that you've put into this master data sheet will be something that we can sort by.

So if there's anything that's currently labeled private or whatever else, we could say that's not going to show up on the public version.

Yeah, the only thing that I heard in there that I know for a fact we won't do is that we don't have the ability to filter out for restrictions like no biking.

We didn't agree on that for our metadata sheet.

So like, I know at Ragged Mountain, you can't mountain bike there, but we don't capture that anywhere in the data, so I can't put it up on, you can't filter by that on the map.

Bob, another question for you.

It is possible, but everybody is going to have to do a lot of work.

I mean, it's not a huge deal for me to set that up, but that's the kind of thing where you want to be careful based on the value proposition of it.

Because once you start doing that,

You don't want to end up doing it for everything.

I would suggest that, because there's no real difference between doing it now and say doing it after you guys have already seen the data.

I would take what we have now, which is already a wealth of information.

You're not going to be able to display in a literal one map at this point to convey all the information that we have.

I would just take what we have and then work with that.

And then if you realize after

Just one point, I think when we were first conceptualizing the One Map several years back, one of the strengths was to have, you know,

Call them daydream trails, just stuff that we weren't actually thinking you'd want to put out for the general public's consumption.

So, you know, I'm wondering how much work it is to have a column that this is sort of like available for public viewing and have yes, no, just a column there.

So you could have a bunch of stuff in the no column that might be conceptual trails that are being talked about or something that might be a possibility.

We have a planning status bar and you can filter out for things that are in the planning phase.

And then we just, I know for a fact, we just don't have that specific mountain biking restriction field, but we do have

I like Michael's idea though is like a final check because it's not that every planning, every planned route is something we don't want to show to the public.

There could be lots of planning planned routes that we show to the public, but there's also some that are just so conceptual that could be crossing private property at this time because we don't know the exact route of it.

And then you can filter out what the public gets.

You don't need to do it by adding a new column, which is like not necessarily a good data practice.

But if you guys were to say like these features, whatever they may be, say if you wanted to take one map, which is one data set, and you want to make several maps from it, one of them being say like a planned infrastructure,

Matt, but there are some where they're so convoluted you don't even want to put it up there.

You can certainly filter those things out, but you don't need to start adding a bunch of columns to it to do that.

I agree.

One more question if you don't mind, and just real quickly on the last one.

I understand about the filtering.

I just would caution that maybe something as simple as a yes, no, public or non-public might be simpler for a lot of lay users, lay staff people who are willing to just want that simple yes, no kind of thing.

But if we can use the filtering system and it works, it's fine.

The other question I had was,

and the potential for using this as an analytical tool to try and select projects that are going to be the you know the highest choice for the future rounds of grant applications or city county funding whatever it is.

How hard is it going to be to add new columns to this data set so that we might be able to put certain attributes like proximity to schools or you know close to density or

So are you asking if you can take the data set as it is at a certain point in time and do what you're talking about or are you asking if

No, I understand your point.

I think you're right.

Incredibly, we're talking about that.

I mean, an hour.

I'm going to give Dan Mahon a chance to ask his question.

Yeah, thanks.

This is a great project.

by the way.

But the question of being able to demonstrate on the map where and where you can't ride bikes is going to be pretty critical to a lot of folks.

Ivy Creek is one example where bikes just simply aren't allowed.

And it could be deceiving for someone who sees a map that doesn't indicate that.

They'd show up with their bikes and not be able to go there.

Anyway, I just wanted to put my two cents in on that.

So I have a question because this seems to be more of an issue for the county.

And Amanda, you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but are you fully aware of the list of, like, do you have a list of places that should not be bike done?

It's not a long list, but it's a volatile list.

It's kind of a critical list to some folks.

And it involves sensitive areas or issues.

or management policies, long-term management policy.

Sure, and I think my follow-up question would be, is there anything, is there any shared feature among that short list of critical areas that's already in the metadata that would allow us to take those off of a public map?

Well, I mean, you've got the Ivy Creek trails on there and the Ragged Mountain trails and at this point, neither of those trails are officially open to bikes.

Those are the only two that I can really think of that I see.

Bob, is there a way to, is there a comment field?

I mean, because I recognize the sensitivity, but identifying the bikes as a like primary sensitivity we have to monitor is only because who's in the room and who showed up to the last meeting.

A different sensitivity might be

Dogs Allowed Without Leash.

That's a different set of trails that have that restriction.

Or Handicapped Accessible might be another person's concern.

So it would be far easier, I would think, to capture that stuff in a comment and then have the comment easily show up.

Well, and you know, I think a lot of this too gets to the point of what is the purpose of the One Map?

Is the purpose of the One Map for people's use?

Like in terms of where do I go?

Or is it in terms of people?

Because I think this was designed initially in terms of the planning function and where are we in the process for different things and kind of understanding

The building of the network or completing of the network.

So I think, you know, there's kind of we're talking about two different functions of the one map, both of which can be achieved with the line work.

Amanda, I think that's a good point and it really gets back to some stuff that Bob said earlier that this might be an iterative process where you guys started with this idea that it was going to be for planning purposes.

Let's finish that work being sensitive to this idea that members of the public are going to use it for figuring out where to ride and walk and then work to improve the map from there to make it

meet that secondary goal of having something that people can access for most likely on their phones to bike and walk around the community.

Yeah, I certainly agree with that.

I would say that if you, it would be a good idea to collectively, you know, I think we're four different groups here, keep a list of the fields that you feel should be added.

And then after we get to a point where we're

We put it out, or at least we're reviewing a product that could be ready to be put out.

Then we would all sit down and like go through that list.

Sure.

Also, before I forget, I want to answer Peter's question.

There's a notes field, so you could add something like what you're getting at.

It doesn't say common.

It says notes.

So if we were to utilize it the way that Peter is describing, that's where the appropriate place would be in the notes field.

So as far as timeline goes, it's dependent upon the city county link.

So as soon as that happens,

which I hope would be in the near future, I mean, 2020 timeline.

It wouldn't take me long at that point to do the rest of it.

It's just getting that place where we can share our data and then I would then process them all together into one map.

And then at that point, without getting too into the weeds,

So do you think we could tentatively talk about having you back at our December meeting to see a finished product?

I can be here as soon as that link is set up, essentially.

That's the only thing in my life that's holding this process up, is as soon as that's there, I have about a day's worth of work making sure everything is

It's good to hear and I guess Amanda will just count on you to keep us updated about when Bob is ready to come back.

Sound good?

I know you have to find your unmute button.

Yeah, it does.

Great.

Before we let Bob go, I just want to give everyone an opportunity to ask any additional questions that we haven't covered regarding the One Map.

OK, I'm hearing none.

Thank you so much, Bob.

All right.

Thank you, everybody.

Hopefully, we won't all disappear.

It looks like it worked.

All right.

Bye, Bob.

All right, for everyone else, our next item on the agenda is to talk about the bicycle and pedestrian count.

So what I'm going to bring up on our shared screen is this document that lists out the locations that I've identified based on conversations with you guys and based on our last meeting.

There are four options for long before project count locations, five options for before and after count locations, so things that we're going to have some sort of project in that area in the near future, and then three spots for after project only count locations.

In the notes, I tried to indicate whether that was city or county and whether or not there was a historic count location either there or nearby.

I have highlighted over here that for Preston, I think when I sent you guys this table, I originally thought there was no historic count location, but Peter Krebs corrected me and there definitely is a nearby historic count location.

which I think is an ongoing location where there's a counter that the city has put up.

So just highlighting that that is a change from what you guys originally saw.

I'm also going to stop sharing and move you guys over to a map that we've created.

Hold on one second, talk amongst yourselves.

Are you all seeing this map?

So this is the map that I created a while ago that just showed the historic count locations.

I've changed colors because apparently green is used for parks and stuff.

So all the historic count locations are in either red or yellow.

Red if they were listed as a historic count location, but I never found any data for those locations.

and Yellow if it was a historic count location and there was at least some data from 2015.

All right.

Got to make everything smaller here.

Back this out.

I'm letting two more people into our meeting, so just hold on a second.

Okay.

And then in purple are all the suggested count locations that were on that table that I shared with you guys.

So at this point, I'm really just looking for feedback from everyone out of all of those count locations.

If we were ideally to pick three from each category, which three would those be?

And if, you know, it doesn't have to be three from everything, it could, you know, maybe some of those locations just don't make any sense based on information I don't have.

So I'm flexible, but ideally we're gonna get down to nine.

Okay, so I'm just gonna open the floor and we can take a look at the locations on the map if we need to.

But I'm just curious to hear from everyone.

Is it the three things with blue check boxes on this screen?

Nope, I made it more complicated than that.

Hold on.

Okay, so.

What I tried to do, and Peter I don't think you were at our last meeting where I was trying to explain my whole philosophy behind this new refocused bike and pedestrian count.

So for anyone who's forgotten or didn't understand it the first time, basically rather than doing a bicycle and pedestrian count that tried to get a sense of the whole region and how many people are biking and walking in every single place, I tried to recognize our limitations as a PDC

and focus on count locations that are going to give us before and or after project information.

So I've identified three different categories.

One is the long before project count locations.

So these would be locations where we've talked about some sort of bike and pedestrian focused project happening in that area.

Like in the far future, like we're going to apply for smart scale the next round.

And then if that's funded, this is what is going to happen there or something like that.

So long before project count locations.

Ideally, we would count there this year.

We'll count there next time we do a bike count.

And then the vet will just keep doing that until the project happens.

And then we'll have plenty of before project data.

And then we'll have some after project data.

The before and after project count locations represent places where a bike and ped focused project is going to happen.

in the near future, so the next year or two.

And then finally, after project only count locations was a category where some sort of bike and ped project has gone in.

And we'd really like to know how that infrastructure is being used.

And we don't necessarily have before information, but it's still valuable to count there and get a sense of whether or not that infrastructure is working.

I hope that helped.

So now I'm just going to kind of hand it over to you guys again.

Out of all these, which ones do you definitely want to see?

Which ones do you think we can cross off the list?

This is Chris.

I just briefly saw the map but there's like three along 250 at McIntire.

We've got active automated counters there already but that would be one of those sites where as that trail stitches together this is kind of not fully before and not fully after.

We still need a little bit of money to finish those trail projects so we're counting up there for that reason.

So I don't know if

And I just logged on, I was sorry, I was out in the woods getting ready for a project this weekend.

If the counters we have there are good enough already and that means they just come off this list completely because we already have it covered or if we need one there for your purposes.

But I know Shane and VDOT have put some up there and we've got a few up there.

So this would be the one at the parkway, the one at the skate park bridge and the one there.

It's a little bit more complicated.

So when you're looking at the map, the blue just represents, that was information put in by the city to show where they currently have automatic count sites.

Okay.

That's fair.

Jessica, could you go back to that other list?

I find that one a little bit easier to choose from.

I mean, I think all of these make a whole lot of sense.

I guess, from my perspective, from the long before the Preston, Grady, and 10th would be a city preference for me, personally.

Chris might know differently about the market in Riverside.

I think from the before, I mean West Main I feel like is just one that feel like we should continue to get data on that because we don't really have pedestrian data except for the ones that we have done with our counts.

So even though we have a permanent bike counter we're not necessarily counting.

The Pedestrians, 24 Hours.

Yeah, and then, I mean, I don't know, do we have to choose the other three since there are only three on that list?

Those would be my top ones, I guess.

Okay.

Perhaps it might be,

easier or it'd be more beneficial for me if you told me which projects we could knock off the long before project list and the before and after project list.

Just so we could get it down to three each.

I wanted to leave things open, just in case like

There were four from the before and after project list that were just so important to city and county, but you know, maybe only two from the after project list.

I'm just trying to leave it open.

I see Dan Mahon, you've raised your hand.

The Old Mills Trail.

I believe we've got a counter out there right now and have been been keeping track of that.

But it would be good to document or include that in this primarily because it sort of helps inform our plans for a bridge across the river downstream.

I think at this point, we're not adding anything to the list.

We are just choosing from what's left in the list.

OK. Gotcha.

Can I ask a couple questions before I comment?

Oh, sorry, Chris.

Go ahead, Chris.

For the county's talking points, I don't know that Rio

Chris, go ahead, Kevin.

Bike lanes in the travelway.

So anyone biking on the roadway in the bike lane or on the sidewalk will be counted.

Anyone walking on a sidewalk or not a sidewalk in the roadway will be counted.

So that 5th Street under the first, the green column you have there, where was that?

So where is that located again?

So that I will always complain about how the streets are labeled here, but there is an intersection where it's like Fifth Street and then Old Lynchburg and then Old Lynchburg is like at a 90 degree angle to Old Lynchburg.

Okay, you know what, let me bring it up.

Here it is.

When you zoom in, it's...

Yeah, yeah.

Old Lynchburg used to turn and go under the highway and then Fifth Street came in and they realigned it like that.

So that's an interesting place.

And I'm not exactly sure how the count could work.

But I think we can talk through it and make it work.

So where you show that red or that purple dot right now is the site where the Albemarle Business Campus was just approved by the board.

And they're moving forward pretty fast.

Currently, there is a really poor

I guess if you're going to, that could be a really good place to put one.

And it doesn't have to be right at the corner.

It could be maybe on Fifth Street a few hundred feet north of that corner just counting the pedestrians on that really poor path right now.

And I think you'll get some.

But come next year, I mean, it's going to go under construction probably in about maybe

three or four months they might start clearing and stuff so that you know next year you could go back and count it on that brand new shared use path and I have a feeling we're gonna see a lot you know we're gonna be able to see the difference there between a really poor shared use path and a really good one you won't be able to get really any bikers in the road located right there because there's a guardrail separating

Okay.

Well, that feels like kind of a lucky pick because all I did, I didn't know about that project you were just describing.

I just picked something along the corridor study that you guys have just completed.

So it doesn't have to be right here, but based on what you just said, it sounds like, you know, maybe moving it right just up here makes it a great count location.

Okay, cool.

So that sounds like a priority for you guys.

No.

I mean, I think you'll get some.

There are people that walk along that path.

There's not a lot, but we'll get a lot more.

And we'll get bikers once it's converted to the high quality shared use path, because bikers will be using that then.

So that's a good one from the green column for the county.

In the blue, you have that rider road, which Chris mentioned.

And maybe it would help, once again, the rider road, Penn Park, if you can pull up the map as to where you were thinking so that I could give a little direction.

And when are these going to go out?

Fingers crossed.

Okay.

Okay, good.

Then you won't, because we are really close to going to construction on this one.

This one, I think, came, this recommendation came from you, I think, when we had our one-on-one conversation

Yeah, there's existing sidewalk that goes along that along Rio right there.

What is that?

Sawgrass or something?

Yeah, so on Rio, adjacent to that road, there is an existing sidewalk that ends right about where you see that 637, and so it dead ends right there.

We're going to extend that sidewalk all the way to John Warner Parkway, and that's going to be under construction real soon.

So I guess if you're going to count, you could count that sidewalk

how when it's not really providing a lot of use and then after we install the rest of the sidewalk find out how making that additional extension of it actually improves the use of it.

The other thing is that you could put it where there is no sidewalk because I think there's like a

what do they call them, cattle trails or desire lines up on there where people are already walking off the edge of the sidewalk and just keep walking along the front of the houses.

Okay, great.

And I would probably add

I would add if you put it at the corner you're going to catch a lot of people crossing from the Waldorf School over to Penn Park.

There's a lot of east-west going on at the corner.

So that was going to be our next topic of conversation.

They will be mostly intersection counts.

I think that there was one location on the list that I suggested might be screen line or a segment count.

Maybe I got that one out.

Yes, they're mostly gonna be intersection counts.

And to Peter's point, let me show you guys, let me show you guys a potential count sheet option.

So new share.

I'm sure by the time the pandemic is over, I will know how to use it.

Okay, so this is just a quick mock-up of

of a count sheet that I have in mind.

And I'm really looking for feedback from people who are smarter than me about this kind of stuff.

So in the city I used to work in, we had lots and lots of volunteers for bike ped counts.

And what they did is they simplified the bike ped documentation projects, the bike ped documentation projects count sheets.

So again, I'm going to show you another

I just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

I'm bringing you back to the map, but hopefully you guys will be able to see.

Are you guys seeing the bike ped count sheet?

Yes, okay.

So this is what the bike ped documentation project recommends and this is definitely best practice if you have someone very knowledgeable going out and counting bikes and peds at an intersection.

It breaks down the intersection into 12 different parts and you account for not only the direction of travel into the intersection but also the direction of travel out of the intersection and then so you have this map of what it looks like to go into the intersection and out of it and then as the counter you go down and you tally it on this separate sheet.

This I think can be really really difficult for volunteers

And it gets progressively more difficult if you have more folks biking and walking through the intersection.

So what I've seen done before is a simplified version where you lose some of that information, but you make it a lot easier to count everyone.

So this is the alternative option where we could document by 15 minute increments just the direction of travel into the intersection.

It still gives you a lot of really useful info, but it frees up the counter to also document this demographic information.

So what the counter would do is for every bicyclist or pedestrian entering the intersection, they would document that person in one of these boxes.

And then they could tally in each of these boxes as many, you know,

They can tally as many times as they need to.

So you would have someone perhaps entering the intersection from the east.

And then that person, so you put a tally here.

And then that person is also wearing a helmet.

So you're gonna put a tally here.

That person is clearly under 18 years old.

They're riding a child's bike and they look like a child.

So we're gonna put a tally here.

It's a little girl in a pink dress.

You're gonna put a tally here.

And she is sidewalk riding.

So you can put a tally here.

I think that that still gets a lot of useful information and I'm really eager to also collect this demographic information as the PDC is interested in improving our efforts towards achieving transportation equity.

But I'm very curious to hear what everyone's thoughts are on this.

I also recognize, you know, the city I used to work in was a pretty perfect grid and Charlottesville and Albemarle are not, but I still think this is useful.

But I'm curious to hear what you folks all think about the count,

Potential Count Sheet.

Good point.

I would definitely try to.

I'm going to adjust this count sheet to make it clear that there would be bikes and peds, some perhaps.

Each of these four columns would be divided into two, with one column being for bikes and one for peds.

Is there value in collecting minority data, partly to pitch, in my role for trails at least, that you know a lot of this is

Affordable Living infrastructure, not just dog walking, Subaru driving people going out there enjoying the woods for trails.

Would it help to have some minority column in there that begins to show that, you know, who's using it?

Absolutely, and I really struggled with that.

What I envisioned putting on, if we're going to include that data, I would have a column that would just be a tally mark for non-white.

I just, I think that it's a, I don't know, I don't know that it's any harder than any of the other things to guess, but I'm not sure.

I appreciate you mentioning it.

Is there anyone else who really would love to see that or has any reason not to include it?

I was going to also make a suggestion to that effect as well.

The other thing I was gonna say is I do think that this simplified version is, I would love to give it a try and see.

I know I counted Belmont Bridge site a couple, one of the last times, and it is pretty difficult to capture all of the different movements and all the different things.

You know, it is useful data.

It is incredibly useful data, but it's almost more useful when you know a specific project is going to happen.

So maybe it is like that long before count where you're maybe doing the more detailed stuff because those that are in design or almost under construction, we've already made some of those decisions about how an intersection is going to be

Design.

I think that's a really interesting idea and I'm totally open to this concept of using different count sheets for these different categories.

That was just, I'm not necessarily advocating that.

That was just more me thinking through the different counties.

So we'll, we'll take a closer look at that.

Yeah, I'll just say, this is Bill Palmer.

Yeah, I think this simplified sheet is probably the way to go.

My recollection from doing this in the past, like actually counting the bikes and peds is, and maybe it's because I was doing it around UVA during full class change times, but the pedestrian aspect can get really overwhelming really fast.

The bike aspect is pretty steady.

You're not really worried.

It's easy to make all the check marks, but the pedestrian ones,

It can get pretty overwhelming.

And so as simplified as it can be is a good thing.

And I don't know, you know, I think in the past, we always just did numbers of pedestrians, never really tried to characterize them per se.

I would assume, is that what you're thinking with the pedestrian side of it?

Yeah so I think that typically I've seen these demographic attributes be most just for the bicyclists and clearly that's where my brain was this morning when I was creating this simplified count sheet.

I think that that has been historically for because bicyclists just tend to be tend to skew so much more male and like middle-aged so having this information was particularly useful for that whereas pedestrians seem to you know it's a wider range of people yeah

So I think that's probably what we would do.

These demographic things would just be for bicyclists.

The only additional thing I might include for pedestrians that I, well, no, that's it.

I'm going to stop there.

And I do want to say, Bill, the map that I put together, the suggested count locations, I realize are not super focused on the university.

And that was partly on purpose just because of the COVID situation and knowing that people are not moving in their regular patterns.

And in the way that you're thinking about how these counts are going to be used,

planning tool for local transportation projects.

That really falls more in the city, county, VDOT realm than the UVA.

But I did like to see the Emmett Ivey

intersection there because in the next few years there's a lot that's going to be happening there so I think that's probably a good one to keep on the list.

Jessica, this is Shane.

I do have a couple questions concerning the layout of the simplified form.

I do agree that a simplified form will probably be good.

and mostly the turning movements on the one diagram.

But anyway, I guess the way it's laid out here now, you're basically saying it's gonna be an intersection, but I think it's important to know, for instance, if it's Preston and Grady, and basically you're getting an intersection count, and I guess you can determine it via the entering from east or west

But it would be good to know was the person actually on Preston or were they actually on Grady versus the intersection?

Again, it'd be good to denote.

Yeah, Preston Grady is a very confusing one.

And I think we will not have a volunteer count that.

I'm not sure that any count sheet, simplified or not, is going to be particularly helpful for that intersection.

Yeah, I wasn't referring to that one in general.

I mean, specifically I'm saying just that any intersection, it would be good to know, did the person enter the intersection from

One road or the other?

I mean, if you just count the intersections, the number of people in the intersection, you're not gonna know how they got there, I guess.

I mean, did they get their own Rio Road or did they get there on the Parkway?

I'm not sure that I'm 100% understanding.

Let me bring up the map.

Let me bring up the map and then we can... Well, can you...

I was just trying to clarify that it'd be good.

I think you can get it from the entering form and entering those columns.

However, I think it would be good to know when the person entered the intersection, were they entering it from which crossroad?

So for this one that you're looking at on the map with, what was this one?

This is Ryo crossing Waldorf School Road, Penn Park Road.

So for the person counting here, if they were counting here,

So what you see record that road and make note of what road it is I mean that would be I guess you can know that but again as I said if they're a little further away from the intersection and they were counting you know

And they would only be counting on Rio or I guess it's Rio.

But if you put them at the intersection, yeah, that would work.

Yeah.

Jessica just that if you have the time

It would be great to personalize each of these for the nine intersections, just because we're not a north-south grid city.

So instead of entering from east-west, it would say entering from, and then the road name, or maybe a landmark, you know, coming from Bodo, something like that.

Yeah, so that's exactly what I was thinking, what I envisioned doing.

And since I'm only looking at nine count locations, I'm going to make a cheat sheet like this so that people, and I will use the landmark stuff, you know, looking towards Alderman Road or looking towards the BODOs or something like that for each intersection.

So that will be available and that way the count sheets can still be just a random thing people can easily print off that'll work for any particular count location, but they'll have that cheat sheet information available to them as well.

Okay.

Can you just show back to the list, the Excel list, I guess.

Do you have John Warner Parkway in Rio?

Okay.

This category only has the three, so I'm going to do all three if that's what everyone wants.

Unfortunately, our counters aren't going to count the home street.

at that location.

Okay.

Okay.

Then that's fine.

Sounds good.

Also, you're saying we're not, Jessica, you're saying we're not going to add to the after project list because we were thinking

On the south end of Berkmar, we have the shared use path that's in design now south of Hilton Heights.

OK.

Anyone else?

All right.

If you have any other thoughts, comments, questions, as always, feel free to email me.

I'm going to stop sharing this screen.

I'm going to just double check.

It is very clear that we need to do a public workshop that has been scheduled for November 12th.

It's a Thursday at 6 p.m.

It'll be by Zoom.

Make my life difficult.

We now have a bicycle and pedestrian transportation planning page.

So on our main page, if you go to program areas under transportation, now there is a full page just dedicated to bike and ped stuff.

And on that page, which is where you can find our meeting recordings and our meeting agendas for the future, we also have these active projects.

And that is where the Rivanna River Bridge Feasibility Study currently lives.

You can send people here so that they can read the memo that we discussed in our last meeting if they want to take a look at that.

And that is what we'll be discussing in the public workshop.

Prior to that public workshop, remember this was kind of being absorbed a little bit by the Rivanna River Corridor Study.

So Sandy, heads up, we're talking about your stuff now.

They are going to be hosting two public workshops at the end of this month, one on Saturday the 24th at 10 AM and another one on a Tuesday or Thursday.

Perfect.

So at those meetings, Sandy and other team members are going to be talking about the corridor study really broadly.

And at the end, I get like three minutes to encourage people to come to the Bridge Feasibility Study Public Workshop.

So what I will have for all of you guys in the next

A day or two is a social media post for that public workshop and a press release that is going to go through both the county and the city and hopefully we will be releasing one press release for everyone.

talking about the feasibility study public workshop.

I'd like to use the next five minutes or so or however long it takes to just hear from folks about what do you want, and especially from VDOT, what do you want on the agenda for this public workshop?

So my initial thought had been to

do something like an expanded version of the presentation I gave you guys at our last meeting.

So that would be some sort of historical context setting at the beginning where I talk about all of the planning studies and all of the public engagement that's already gone into identifying this particular crossing

as an important one for the community for both the city and the county and then go into the details of the feasibility study.

Emphasizing that we are talking about whether all we are talking about is whether or not these locations will work from an engineering perspective to build a bridge in those locations.

Things like design and all the details are still yet to be worked out and then going over the next steps for how we will proceed forward.

specifically going into some details about if this project is going to go into if this project is going to be if we're going to be applying for SMART SCALE funding for this kind of a project this is the timeline and these are the next steps we would be taking in order to be ready to make that funding request.

So does that sound good to people?

Are there specific questions you want asked of the public?

What do you want to hear from them?

What kind of feedback do you want to get from them?

This is Chuck.

It sounds good.

I was just, something the way you worded it.

Yes, we're not in the design phase.

These are the two locations that we initially identified based on the topography that would work best.

So I mean, part of it is getting comments on the location at this point.

Which one of these locations do they favor the most?

and or the least and what are the comments on both of them.

So I mean I guess focus on that more so than on the aesthetics and the design.

We can work through those later in a separate forum.

That makes sense and I really appreciate you

laying it out like that.

That's very helpful.

Chuck, this might be a question that you'll have to follow up with the consultants on.

But one question that came up at our meeting last time was for those two locations, there were two very different style bridges recommended.

The question is, are those styles, is that the only style that will work at those locations?

Can the styles be changed?

and I'm speaking really like engineering style like one was a truss bridge and one was a different style bridge.

I think yes, those are something that could be worked out at either location.

Hey Jessica, just based on some of the comments I'm getting from the website for the Rivanna River Project in general, I'd say one thing just to be prepared to answer questions about are things like how will this connect to other trail systems, where's the access, is there parking nearby, things like that that might impact other land owners in the area.

I don't know that you have to go into detail but

Great.

Thanks, Chip.

Yeah, that came up during even during the when we were doing the study, we had questions about that.

That came up about parking, especially at the Riverside Park.

But definitely both of them, because Woolman Mills is going to be limited to from

I think

As a spin-off to this, as we look at, we're putting a restroom there anyway and some other things, as the bridge project moves forward, I think our department will take note of that because there's been a constant push and pull between adding parking to a popular park and taking away green space from a popular park and, you know, this project will be one of those things that we have to figure out what's the fine line balance on that.

So yeah, I'll be listening very keenly to

I would hopefully be careful of what you ask, what type of input that you ask for.

Again, is the input going to be on these two alternatives specifically?

Meaning, or do you want to rate which one they like more?

And if so, how are you going to do that in terms of

If you just get written comments, how are you going to, I guess, how are you gonna capture the comments?

And I guess, again, just specifically, what are you asking for?

Again, are you, if you don't specifically lay it out, people are gonna be proposing other locations for it.

It's just, it could, so I guess there's, the gist of it is, again, are we asking people to rate the two alternatives that we are providing

Or is this a larger discussion of a crossing in the area?

That's exactly what I was going to ask for this workshop.

Is there an expectation of

of a voting for a preferred alignment.

And I just, I think that's, we need to iron that out.

Yeah, cause we did have some questions come up about why didn't we look at further south or further north up by the free bridge?

Cause that there was a proposal for that previously too,

as a separate bridge parallel to the roadway.

Right.

Chuck, I believe the study area was just kind of centered around Riverview Park.

Do you have any more information on why that study area was chosen?

That was during the discussions.

We don't have minutes, so we don't have that information anymore.

But that was part of the discussions about where are we looking at this from a location standpoint.

And we focused in, during the discussions, the group decided that we were looking at this area between Riverview Park and Woolen Mills, not looking up by Free Bridge.

Yeah, I think the reason for it was that all these precedent plans that we've talked about, including now the Jefferson area plan, pretty clearly identify three slash four locations.

And again, the Rivanna Corridor Study is in that mode as well.

There's a Penn Park, Garden Towel Park, that was viewed as mainly recreational.

Transportational, but mostly recreational.

Then free bridge, that one was downgraded because it's an enhancement, it's not a new connection.

I think the other piece of that would be

The Freebridge area has its own study going and it may or may not include its own bridge, but like to other people's point, that doesn't solve the Willam Mills Market Street area.

Like in the end, we need Freebridge, Willam Mills and Penn Park and Darden to all have bridges in a certain sense in the long-term plan.

I think to Shane's point and others, this meeting is A, to make sure everybody knows that they know how to comment.

And I think B, just sitting back and

taking all the comments even if they're like I'd rather it be a free bridge or I'd rather it be purple or I'd rather it be a hula hoop bridge you know like I think we just have to open up and go so we don't get caught in the route 20 thing like everybody knows how to comment everybody knows where to send their comments just send them all in and then we sort it out in the end that you know we're probably always going to get some I want a rope swing like Tarzan has comments that's fine we just need to make sure that person had the ability to speak and then who to speak to

So that if it does go any further forward, people don't raise their hand and go, I've never heard of this.

What are you talking about?

I didn't get the comment.

I would imagine, Jessica, this is two thirds public information about, hey, this study's going on and one third, now that you're aware of that, tell all your friends, here's the email address, tell me what you think tonight, send in your comments.

You know, this thing isn't going to construction or further planning, you know, anytime in the immediate future.

And actually, the third, I think, has to be a major pillar is gathering data to build the design brief for the project.

So we're making a whole lot of assumptions.

And there could be issues at work that could change what the whole thing is about.

I think one assumption a ignorant viewer or someone coming in seeing the feasibility study would say, well, I just want to get across the river.

I'm not trying to get to Martha Jefferson.

So like is this to what degree is this a small connection?

To what degree is this a huge connection?

It's really assumptions on our part and we can get that information from the public.

So I think it would actually be useful to come up, us as a group, to come up with some prompting questions like, if this bridge existed, would you use that trail on the other side of the river from Riverview?

That type of thing.

We just don't know.

Well, again, that goes back to my point about the study has basically been done.

I mean, basically we're at this point, we're offering alternatives.

So again, those other questions are larger than

and this, but for this specific project and the products that we have on hand,

Again, are we going to put these two alternatives out there and be like, if you had to choose based on this study, based on these two designs, which one do you want?

I mean, is that something that we're gonna prompt people to do?

Or if we get general comments and it's like, oh, let's study a bridge somewhere else.

This study is at that point obsolete because it did not cover that.

Part of that might be that we've known we want to bridge in the generic area and I believe one of the outcomes of the current products is the two locations.

People say Riverview, people say Market, we study those locations, we found out they're feasible, we have ballpark costs.

This may be to your point, Shane, kind of not speak now if you ever hold your peace, but like, is there a preference of these two locations?

and in a certain sense saying yeah we looked at some other opportunities for locations and these two arose to the top for these reasons because if we don't at some point nail the location we're gonna play this game forever and never build a bridge so yeah how to ask that question Shane is tricky because it's basically saying yeah we looked at that other one and it's off the table because so how do you ask the public I'm not saying pick

Pick one of the two, but say, are you comfortable with us moving forward to the next phase of design?

And if so, what sort of inputs would you give us if we are going to start actually designing one of these two locations?

And I imagine one of the responses might be, I like the bridge in option A, but I'd rather have it built in location B.

One thing just to keep in mind as you're sorting this out is to the extent possible, like if you want to get information on a consensus, I think having closed ended questions that people can respond to via a poll is a good way to get like sort of a feel for how many, you know, what, you know, kind of the equivalent of how many people in the room support such and such that you might do at a meeting.

So it might be a mixture, like do what you can to,

Have people kind of force them into making a choice between one or the other so you can get a feel.

And then you can facilitate some open ended, you know, back and forth comment as well.

But I think, you know, to the extent that there are sort of discernible choices and you want to, you know, get, get, you know, you, you can, you can sort of help define that to move a project forward.

I think those are all really helpful comments.

So to repeat back to you guys what I've heard so far.

This public workshop is going to be in large part to share information about the process and about the feasibility study itself.

and the results of that study.

And then we are going to be looking to the folks in attendance, the public in attendance at that, to get a very clear sense of which of the two locations do they prefer.

And we may do that with a series of closed-ended questions, maybe through some like consensus building where people can say they really, really like option one, or we can work out exactly how that will be.

We'll also ask some questions about design and what kind of designs people are interested in pursuing if we take this to the next step.

And then we would also have time for open comment.

Jessica, I think you might want to ask them if we could contribute this stuff later between now and the meeting.

But one thing that I think would be very interesting to know

That's a good point.

I'll write that down.

And then I see someone asked, would you consider keeping the polling window open beyond the time of the live meeting?

Yes.

So again, on that bike ped transportation planning page, where you can find the memo about the feasibility study, we will also have a place for people to submit comments.

Just like we did, if anyone's familiar with the public workshops we did for the SMART SCALE applications back in May.

So yes, short answer is yes, it will still be open.

So do you envision this, whatever feedback you're feeding, do you envision it being in an actual online survey or just an online place like blog type thing where folks, again, you're going to reach considerably different amounts of people depending on

We would have folks at the public workshop be able to voice their opinions or type them into the chat box and then we'll have the opportunity for people to go online to our website and offer feedback that way kind of like through an email system.

If it is determined that we want to move forward with a SMART SCALE or transportation alternatives or whatever funding, if we want to move forward with any sort of funding application, that's when I would propose putting in the time and effort to do a broader online survey.

Does that sound good to people?

Again, I would just take the lessons from route 20.

You know, it's a very small handful of folks basically dictated the outcome of that.

So again, public meetings are great, but I think it definitely, you need some other way

of eventually getting input.

Well, I was going to say, I mean, putting together the MetroQuest surveys, I don't think is that difficult if we wanted to go that route and do that also.

and then it's just a matter of sending the link out to all the different media services and social media accounts for people to take it and it shows up as geofence so it'll hit everybody who's got a cell phone for the most part.

I appreciate the offer.

I guess I'm just concerned that it's premature without having a clear path forward to request funding.

Yeah, I think the last city-county joint meeting we had, you know, a decade ago before the world got weird, but I think it was like just a year and a half ago.

It might be why we did this study on the timing that we did it, because both board of supervisors and counselors were like perked up when this project came up and like, ooh, Rivanna River Bridge, Neat Pantops area, like, yeah, yeah, let's do that.

So I think even to Shane's point and some others is,

This particular meeting is going to be and when we go to them and say okay we've got some locations we're ready to go to a smart scale and they say what has been your public input we'll be able to go we did all these things we have a survey we have some information we sent mailers to all these people

Yeah, I'm in support of as many portals from public input as possible.

Again, even if the input we get is too far into design or says I'd rather have it over there, at least when we send it up the ladder, we can say this is the feedback we got from your constituents about this project.

And then again,

Yeah, I definitely agree.

I brought Serena in.

She works with the county and community engagement.

Yeah, I would just echo that the more opportunities people have to participate, the better.

And I also want to say what Chris said.

This was brought up to the joint City-County meeting.

And this is when the bike-ped plan was recently adopted.

And so they were interested in this City-County collaboration.

And so I think we are taking the right steps with the public workshop and just learned from L-20.

So Serena, I kind of want to tap you for your expertise in public engagement.

Would it be best practice for us to simultaneously run an online survey around the same time that we're doing the public workshop in middle of November?

Or do we want to hold off until perhaps after the holiday period looking at January?

Well, I don't know what your timeframe is for using the input that you do receive.

So I would probably, if there was some deadline that you had to be responsive to direct around that time.

But I think if you have momentum around the Zoom meeting slash workshop, then I would kind of go alongside that.

Is this something that we want to

have the corridor study collaborate on?

Like, do we want to have another survey that asks these kinds of questions about the bridge in addition to any questions that you guys want to ask?

Well, the challenge we have for there is that there's an expectation from Albemarle that we'll have the majority of the project done by the end of December, so at the end of this year.

So I think probably what makes sense is to have some really high level recommendations or alternatives, regardless of whether or not there's a full recommendation to move forward on.

I think probably we're going to say, well, public consensus at this point is around here.

Okay, so it seems like we have a plan for the relative plan for the agenda for the 12th.

and I will follow up with Chuck regarding doing a MetroQuest survey starting either on the 12th or soon after that to ask these questions and potentially that can help the corridor project as well but if it doesn't make it into your final documents that's okay too because it'll be helpful for this project moving into potential funding applications.

If anyone has any additional comments or questions pop them in the chat or feel free to email me

Later, or give me a call.

With our last 20 minutes, I wanted to give a little time for round table updates.

So let's start with VDOT.

We hope you get to take a break soon.

I'm just hoping to get Rugby Avenue out to bid next and the Washington Park Madison Avenue bike ramp connector project.

Those are the next two.

Well, we finished the striping on Monticello and Emmett.

So if there's comments or feedback on that, let me know.

Emmett Street now has a permanent bike counter as well that was put in over the weekend.

So that's exciting and working well.

I think that that's it.

Oh, and of course, our Belmont Bridge Safe Streets pilot.

So if you've got feedback on that so far, seems to be well received.

And congratulations on that pilot project.

I can't think of anything to record along the bike ped front.

So I think Amanda, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the bike counter you're talking about is in kind of in front of like near Mem Gym and the

what we call the International Residential College.

Correct.

Great.

Well, thanks.

And then I know PEC wanted to make some comments.

Hey, thanks.

Thanks, Jessica.

Just a couple of things.

One that I'd like to, just as an announcement, so the next meeting of the Active Mobility Alliance is on October 27th.

I'm going to post a link to that.

That'll be a Zoom meeting.

And like Jessica has done with this group,

It's moving into a much more forward public facing meeting and we've really benefited from surprising people who have showed up to that.

So that's Monday, October 27th and the link is coming.

One of the big topics we're gonna talk about is an active mobility summit in January.

And I've talked about that a couple of times in this group.

Update for that is I've identified and received proposals from three facilitators and I reached out to another one today.

So I hope to have a decision about that next week, definitely in time for that active mobility alliance meeting.

One of the things that I wanted to talk to you guys about, get quick input is,

The original idea for the summit was, back when it was live, was to have it be an all-day thing where we go to the Omni or something and we have a motivational speaker and then a facilitated discussion to create a joint action plan or small groups having action plans that can have measurable progress in the time of one year.

to be revisited at the next summit.

In the virtual world, I was wondering, do you all think it would make sense to do something that's like a four hour thing that would just be a facilitated discussion and devising that action plan, or

Would you guys think it would be better to have something that's a little bit longer and include a motivational speaker?

I agree.

I think two, you know, probably shorter is better, like two hours max, maybe.

Okay.

I know that's hard to, you know, especially like you and I both have the experience of the Harrisonburg Bike Summit.

And so we know what that involves.

Okay.

Thank you for that.

So the facilitators have all been confident about their ability to keep people's attention by like having breaks and changing things around.

But what that does tell me is optimally having something that's short and having a motivational speaker would be like most optimal.

And yeah, so thank you for that.

Then the other topic I just wanted to to raise and this is related.

Sorry, Peter.

It just occurred to me another thought or idea is maybe it's like

The summit is kind of a building opportunity, do you know what I mean?

And so it's like you do a one to two hour thing to kick off and there are multiple opportunities to kind of check in and have breakout sessions or work groups or whatever so that it ends over a month period, say, and it's once a week or once every two weeks.

I don't know how you would structure it.

Um, you know, to capture people's attention, keep them engaged, but also, um, you know, get the work out of it.

Um, yeah, no, I had thought about splitting it that way as well.

That, that would also be, um, super helpful.

So almost all of you all show up at the Mobility Alliance.

So we'll talk about it somewhere there.

And this will give me a chance to run these ideas past the facilitators also.

And I'm hoping to have whoever we choose be there as well.

So that'll be good.

Other thing I just wanted to mention, this is related to the Rivanna River crossing.

And I'm saying it knowing that I've got

and VDOT planners on the call and also TJPDC.

I met with the developer of the Presidio project, which is on the Pantops side of that project.

And they're actually going to get started pretty soon with their development.

and they're building a retaining wall that's right next to a proposed path that would go down to the Rivanna River.

The VDOT feasibility study doesn't implicate the Presidio property at all, but that's a third of the trail and it's just, it's like 50 yards away.

While ground is broken for this Presidio project might be a really good opportunity to make that pan tops down to river piece of that project.

We saw with 5th Street Trail Hub, in fact, it's the same developer, how difficult it was to go back after the fact of a retaining wall being built in a stream valley

and saying, oh, we actually want to trail there.

They are willing to make their resources available, their team or modify the site plan as necessary.

But it's going to have to actually be the locality doing that.

So we could talk more later about it, but let's keep that in mind as an opportunity.

Figure out how that can work.

Thanks for all of that, Peter.

And I'm sure people can follow up with you if they have any additional thoughts about the summit.

And most of us will see you on the 27th.

Anyone else want to make any comments or announcements or anything?

All right.

Well, that concludes our meeting.

Again, I want to thank all of you guys for your attendance today.

I've learned a lot.

I think we've put together some good next steps.