Budget Committee - April 16, 2025   4/16/2025

Roll Call

• • 00:00:01
    St Paul, City Council, Budget Committee
• • SPEAKER_04
  • 00:01:04
    City of St Paul, City Council, Budget Committee
  • 00:01:42
    St Paul, City Council, Budget Committee
• • 00:02:58
    St Paul, City Council
  • 00:03:21
    St Paul, City Council,
• • Nelsie Yang
  • 00:04:13
    We're going to get our Finance and Budget Committee started here.
  • 00:04:22
    I hope that folks are starting off their morning on a cheerful and bright note.
  • 00:04:26
    I'll just repeat a few things from our first meeting that we had a couple of weeks ago, which is that welcome, everybody.
  • 00:04:33
    And also, I'm asking for folks to show up with questions and also to share your expertise and wisdom at the table here to stay present with us.
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    and to also come ready to learn.
  • 00:04:43
    I will also be moving forward for all of our Finance and Budget Committee meetings, be having the presentations wrap up at 11.15.
  • 00:04:53
    That way we have 15 minutes of dedicated discussion time at the very end.
  • 00:04:59
    And we'll be sure that we get out of here no later than 11.30.
  • 00:05:04
    So to start off our morning, we have an exciting opportunity to learn about how labor relations works in the city of St. Paul.
  • 00:05:11
    This was something that the council members were very interested in.
  • 00:05:14
    We'll hear from the Department of Human Resources about the overview of what the state law, city charter, and administrative code says about labor relations, contracts, and bargaining.
  • 00:05:24
    also understand the roles of the mayor, human resources, and the council, understand the bargaining process and timeline, and lastly, key considerations that influence negotiations and the current state of the city's existing labor agreements.
  • 00:05:37
    So I would like to introduce you all to a very familiar face, our labor relations manager, Jason Schmidt.
  • 00:05:43
    So welcome.
  • 00:05:44
    We'll head right into the presentation.
  • 00:05:46
    And if you all have any questions, comments, feel free to
  • 00:05:49
    ask it during the presentation.
  • 00:05:51
    If not, you are welcome to leave it for the last 15 minutes of discussion and over to you.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:05:57
    Thank you very much.
  • 00:05:58
    Good morning everyone.
  • 00:05:59
    Again, Jason Schmidt, deputy director of talent and equity.
  • 00:06:04
    So labor relations is one of the divisions within the department and we have, uh, myself and there are two negotiators.
  • 00:06:12
    One of my coworkers, Christy Harriman is, is also joining us here as well as our director, Tony newborn,
  • 00:06:18
    So the three of us really run the labor relations function within the city of St. Paul, and we are responsible for negotiations for Grievances and just for a lot of advice to managers about how labor relations works in the city of St. Paul so I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and and have a chance to talk about labor relations a little bit and what we do for the city so I
  • 00:06:42
    I did try and follow your outline as best I could so we'll kind of walk through and hopefully I answer your questions that we have here so with that come on please that's not a good start there we go that'll work okay legal framework essentially there are two pieces of governance that deal with labor relations in the city of St Paul
  • 00:07:09
    The first part is the city charter and that is chapter 23.
  • 00:07:13
    That assigns the day-to-day functions of labor relations to the office of the mayor and it specifically calls out the planning, scheduling and actual negotiations part of the process.
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    On the other side, it is administrative code spells out that this body is responsible for approving all of the agreements that happened through labor relations.
  • 00:07:40
    That is going to mean the collective bargaining agreements, it's going to mean any memorandums of understandings, it's going to mean all of the wage rates.
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    All have to come through this body for approval.
  • 00:07:52
    that happens in a two-step process.
  • 00:07:55
    That's the resolutions that we put forward to this body and they have to have two readings to become final.
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    The other thing that is specifically called out that is the responsibility of this body is the city's position in interest arbitration must be approved by the council before we proceed into that legal forum.
  • 00:08:16
    of the state
  • 00:08:32
    This has been around since about 1971, so we have 50 plus years of this law being in place and having unions around in the city of St. Paul.
  • 00:08:42
    It establishes the relationship between the employer, the exclusive representative, which Chapter 23 puts with the mayor, and the union, which is typically the business agent, the responsible entity that negotiates on behalf of employees.
  • 00:09:01
    it establishes things like negotiating you must negotiate in good faith i.e.
  • 00:09:06
    you're trying to get a deal on these kind of things reach an agreement and it's over the terms and conditions of employment now when you think of terms and conditions think wages think benefits think having a grievance process maybe uniform reimbursement those are the kind of things that are negotiable that is a term and condition of employment but it also separates some things like management rights
  • 00:09:29
    So it says that the employer gets to run the operation, i.e.
  • 00:09:34
    selection, direction, number of personnel, use of technology, your budgets.
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    Those are all management rights.
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    You can negotiate them, but if you do, they become a term and condition, i.e.
  • 00:09:47
    now you have to negotiate them.
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    So we try very hard to stay out of that realm.
  • 00:09:52
    it also prohibits just a couple of things it says we don't get to negotiate para rates which is a very positive thing there are states where unions can negotiate the actual para rate well that can get you into a lot of trouble so it just says in the state of Minnesota nope everybody pays the same thing this is the split that you're going to do I think that's a very positive part of our state law
  • 00:10:13
    Agreements are typically between one and three years long in the city of St. Paul or other public jurisdictions.
  • 00:10:21
    It doesn't have to be that way.
  • 00:10:23
    The state of Minnesota only has two years and in the private sector you can have anything you want.
  • 00:10:28
    You can have a five-year agreement but the framework that we have is one to three years.
  • 00:10:33
    Typically we prefer a three-year agreement because it provides more labor stability and we know what's going on for the next couple of years.
  • 00:10:42
    It also does talk about the essential status of groups and this is a state term, this is not my term, but essential means that there are some groups that you simply cannot have going out on strike.
  • 00:10:53
    You do not want the firefighters out on strike and we have no EMS service in the City of St. Paul.
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    So I will list those specific groups.
  • 00:11:01
    We're pretty evenly split in the City of St. Paul, essential and non-essential.
  • 00:11:08
    Okay, current status.
  • 00:11:11
    So, what I would say is the City of St. Paul has a complicated labor relations environment.
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    And that is because we are so heavily unionized.
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    We have 25 unions organized into 22 contracts.
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    We are about 98% unionized.
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    That is extremely high.
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    Essentially, you only have the non-reps which are
  • 00:11:35
    directors, a lot of the deputy directors, the mayor's staff, your legislative aides, those folks are not in a union.
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    Everybody else is.
  • 00:11:47
    What that means is for a manager who works in the City of St Paul, especially in some place like Public Works, they have to know a number of contracts.
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    They may have 10 contracts that they need to follow, which is why the advice part that I mentioned earlier in my presentation, that's what a lot of what Christy will do.
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    She will work with managers to walk them through the different requirements in each one of those contracts.
  • 00:12:15
    Now when I talk about unions, we typically break them up into two types, trades and traditional unions.
  • 00:12:22
    The trades unions are closely aligned with the outside.
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    So think of it for an outside contractor, an electrician.
  • 00:12:30
    An electrician at a union contractor, it doesn't matter which contractor they work at, they're going to have the same pay and benefits.
  • 00:12:38
    the city also follows that model so that provides a ready rate labor pool for us that wasn't always the case but that means that they do not get city benefits like your city health insurance they have their own health insurance they have their own sick time they have their own pension contributions when I talk about traditional unions that's what you think of when you mention AFSCME professional employees, police officers, firefighters
  • 00:13:08
    and those two groups, if you look on the slide, it lists the breakdown and it's pretty even.
  • 00:13:15
    So it's AFSCME, the two AFSCME clerical and technical units, the machinists, operating engineers, professional employees, our tri-council group.
  • 00:13:25
    And on the other side, it's the essential units.
  • 00:13:27
    Those are the units that may not strike, police officers, firefighters, attorneys, our supervisory units, okay?
  • 00:13:37
    So who is open?
  • 00:13:38
    So our fun stuff is about to start here.
  • 00:13:41
    we have actually five trades contracts that open up at the end of the month so Christie will be negotiating all of those and then we also at the end of the year have 12 of the 13 traditional unions are open the only group that is not open who has settled through 2026 are the police officers so they're on a slightly different schedule than most of our groups and that happened because we had an arbitration a few years ago
  • 00:14:12
    okay so a little bit about the actual bargaining process and I'm going to use the traditional unions when I talk through this model just for simplicity so understand that the collective bargaining agreement is enforced until the end of the year it doesn't go poof at the end of the year or at the end of the period it's still in force so nothing magical happens when it ends the parties are still here the relationship continues
  • 00:14:40
    so prior to the expiration of agreement the union must request to open negotiations and they do that between 120 and 60 days prior to the expiration that's called the open window period and that's under PELRA so they're basically saying hey we want to negotiate the terms and conditions of this collective bargaining agreement now typically
  • 00:15:06
    negotiations begin late summer, early fall.
  • 00:15:10
    There is no magic about starting earlier in it.
  • 00:15:13
    In fact, it can be detrimental to the process because you can negotiate, reach an impasse, and you still, again, have the collective bargaining agreement in force until the end.
  • 00:15:24
    So then you're kind of stuck.
  • 00:15:25
    That's hard on relationships.
  • 00:15:26
    So no magic with that part.
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    Remember, each negotiation is different.
  • 00:15:32
    We can have two negotiations, we can have twenty negotiations.
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    It just depends on each union, what they bring to the table, how fast they can work through issues.
  • 00:15:43
    That's all part of the process.
  • 00:15:44
    It doesn't mean it's better with two, it doesn't mean it's better with twenty meetings.
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    It's just how things work.
  • 00:15:52
    Okay, so once we have notice of this and we start to get together, each side typically has a bargaining team.
  • 00:16:00
    Now on the union side, that is typically union president, probably some stewards, maybe some committee members, maybe an attorney that they hire, maybe a professional business agent.
  • 00:16:12
    They get to choose that.
  • 00:16:13
    Some groups will come in with three people, some groups will come in with 20 people.
  • 00:16:18
    It's up to them to decide how that process works.
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    On our side, it's typically the labor relations staff.
  • 00:16:25
    One of us will lead it and then we work with departments.
  • 00:16:28
    So a group, a department like Public Works, is probably going to be very busy because they will have somebody assigned to each one of these negotiations.
  • 00:16:37
    They may be involved in 13 negotiations.
  • 00:16:40
    We will also drag in, we may need to talk to some of our own HR people.
  • 00:16:47
    We may need compensation people there, we may need payroll people there.
  • 00:16:51
    Again, we're trying to look for a good process and we need experts at the table.
  • 00:16:56
    So that's how we work through things.
  • 00:17:02
    Okay, issues.
  • 00:17:05
    again remember each group has different priorities so and that's how we get very different collective bargaining agreements in over 50 years they continue to diverge and as much as we try and standardize and that is a request we get from our managers a lot it is very difficult because each group has different priorities so the union is typically going to go talk to all their membership they're going to come back with this big basket of ideas
  • 00:17:32
    some of them are going to narrow them down to we want these five other groups are going to say nope we're going to take all 40 of them and we're going into negotiations now typically when they do that those negotiations take a little bit longer because you have to work through all of those issues again I'm not saying one way or another is better but you have to let the union work through their process for negotiations however that may be
  • 00:17:58
    Not all issues are bargainable, but sometimes they get caught up in negotiations.
  • 00:18:03
    So, some of you may know that we are changing over to a different time and attendance system.
  • 00:18:08
    Well, when we originally put TAS in, that caused a lot of concern with the unions.
  • 00:18:13
    That's technology.
  • 00:18:14
    We get to do that.
  • 00:18:15
    However, it is a best practice to talk about it.
  • 00:18:18
    You don't have to necessarily negotiate it, but it does get caught up and not everybody understands the technical process involved with it.
  • 00:18:26
    we talk about it we discuss it we try and get to a good place not always possible but that's an example of a non-bargaining issue on our side how the city approaches this is we typically we keep track of things throughout the process whether it's one year or three years all the issues that come up then we talk to our departments and say over this period what have you experienced a department may come back and say
  • 00:18:52
    This seniority language is killing us.
  • 00:18:54
    We don't like this.
  • 00:18:55
    Can you change it?
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    Those are the kind of things we would then take to the table and see if we can come up with an agreement on.
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    The bargaining process.
  • 00:19:12
    The union is the moving party in this, so they will come to the table with all of their issues.
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    They start this out
  • 00:19:21
    and they will present that proposal to the city.
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    The city receives it and typically you will have some sort of a break because we will need to go back and we will have to talk to everybody about this proposal.
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    What does this mean?
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    What would be the impact of it?
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    Would you be interested in it?
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    Would you be willing to trade something for it?
  • 00:19:42
    And we also have to balance public works maybe in favor of this.
  • 00:19:46
    Parks hates the idea.
  • 00:19:48
    so it's a balance of what is best for the City of St. Paul because the contract goes across the entire city.
  • 00:19:56
    Once we have that established, once we have our own priorities, the city will come back, costing is another part of it, we need to make sure we understand what the cost of this is, we will actually present a response to their proposals and the city will present our proposals.
  • 00:20:12
    At that point, this is a very formal process.
  • 00:20:15
    You're actually exchanging pieces of paper or it's electronic of everything that you want to trade, everything that you're willing to agree to, because this is what will hold in court, in arbitration, whatever it may be, whatever you agree to.
  • 00:20:30
    That exchange goes back and forth.
  • 00:20:33
    Again, as I mentioned, this process can be two meetings, it can be 20 meetings, it can be two hours long, it can be all night long, we can go.
  • 00:20:41
    But you will continue to exchange those documents until you come to what is known as a tentative agreement.
  • 00:20:49
    What that means is the city accepts this, the union bargaining team accepts this.
  • 00:20:54
    At that point, the union needs to go back and have all of its membership vote on this agreement and say, is this something we want to do or not?
  • 00:21:03
    In my experience, it typically passes.
  • 00:21:05
    However, it doesn't always pass.
  • 00:21:07
    Sometimes the membership says, what are you folks doing?
  • 00:21:11
    This is not something we are willing to agree to and it will be rejected and then you go back to the bargaining table.
  • 00:21:18
    Assuming you get to a tentative agreement, it passes.
  • 00:21:22
    We go through the contract, make sure we have everything agreed, and then that is what is brought to you for approval.
  • 00:21:28
    That is the tentative agreement, that is the proposal that would go through, and the Council votes on it, then it becomes ratified.
  • 00:21:37
    Now, if you do not reach that tentative agreement, there's a couple of things that may happen.
  • 00:21:43
    You would go to the Bureau of Mediation Services, which is an outside independent agency run by the state.
  • 00:21:49
    and what they do is they try and get the parties to come to an agreement whatever that may be and they're usually very good at doing that and they will beat up both parties and make sure everyone understands all the issues on the table so you can get an agreement at that point however if you do not then you have one of two ways to go remember I talked about the essential groups if you cannot get an agreement with an essential group they would proceed to interest arbitration
  • 00:22:17
    and that's where we would have to come to you to have our position in that certified.
  • 00:22:22
    What that means is we are going to an outside independent person and that person is going to make a decision on what the contract will say.
  • 00:22:32
    It is a last resort because whatever that individual says whether you like it or don't like it or both of you hate it that is what you will live with.
  • 00:22:41
    Arbitration is the final answer on any of this so it has significant risks.
  • 00:22:47
    On the other side, you would proceed, there would be a 10-day cooling off period that the Bureau would declare, and at that point a union could proceed to a strike.
  • 00:22:57
    We've been very fortunate in the City of St. Paul that we've had challenging issues, but we've always worked through them.
  • 00:23:02
    There hasn't been a strike in the City of St. Paul.
  • 00:23:04
    I believe the last one was in the 70s.
  • 00:23:06
    So we've been very fortunate in that.
  • 00:23:10
    We have good union partners to work with, so we've worked through our issues to this point.
  • 00:23:19
    Alright, key considerations.
  • 00:23:23
    Negotiations do not occur in a vacuum.
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    Now each jurisdiction is unique, has its own challenges, and we are no different.
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    However, we are compared to other jurisdictions.
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    We cannot escape that.
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    The City of St. Paul is most comparable in our area to the City of Minneapolis.
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    Most folks accept the fact we are not Edina.
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    We are not Eden Prairie.
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    So we don't often get compared to those jurisdictions, but they are also in the market.
  • 00:23:55
    So there is some of it that does happen, especially with the way the labor market is.
  • 00:24:00
    But typically Minneapolis, Ramsey County, the state, those are going to be the comparables for the City of St. Paul.
  • 00:24:08
    But arbitrators will also look wider as well.
  • 00:24:12
    Now the way the City of St. Paul bargains is referred to pattern bargains.
  • 00:24:17
    and what that means is, remember, we are dealing with, we'll have 12 traditional contracts open.
  • 00:24:23
    Once a pattern is set, we try very hard to stay to that pattern.
  • 00:24:29
    It doesn't mean it's going to be exactly the same.
  • 00:24:31
    There are going to be some differences.
  • 00:24:33
    There are going to be some what we call quid pro quo trades where things are done differently.
  • 00:24:39
    But if you do not pattern bargain, then why would
  • 00:24:43
    of the city of St. Paul.
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    We try very hard once that is established to follow that pattern.
  • 00:24:56
    Labor market considerations that was one of the questions.
  • 00:24:59
    As you may well know the labor market is still kind of in turmoil.
  • 00:25:05
    The labor workforce participation
  • 00:25:13
    of the city of St. Paul.
  • 00:25:14
    The city of St. Paul is one of the most difficult jobs to fill.
  • 00:25:22
    It is difficult to fill.
  • 00:25:24
    It is difficult to fill.
  • 00:25:26
    It is difficult to fill.
  • 00:25:28
    It is difficult to fill.
  • 00:25:30
    It is difficult to fill.
  • 00:25:32
    It is difficult to fill.
  • 00:25:33
    It is difficult to fill.
  • 00:25:35
    on the positive side, sometimes the market reacts better.
  • 00:25:39
    So for decades it was very difficult to hire IT folks.
  • 00:25:44
    Well, the supply of those has improved, so that's not quite as bad as it was previously.
  • 00:25:49
    So it does go both ways.
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    The labor market.
  • 00:25:54
    So here's an interesting one.
  • 00:25:55
    For the first time in my experience working for the City of St. Paul, we have decided to do a market study.
  • 00:26:00
    We have hired an outside agency
  • 00:26:03
    to come in
  • 00:26:24
    It applies to everybody.
  • 00:26:26
    It doesn't account for major shifts in the marketplace.
  • 00:26:29
    So job A may have just gone through the roof, where B and C have not changed at all.
  • 00:26:36
    But we're still applying the same increase to all three jobs.
  • 00:26:40
    You may also have a situation where, quite frankly, the market doesn't value job C at all, and we're still paying for that one.
  • 00:26:47
    So now we're going to be high on that job.
  • 00:26:50
    so what the market study will do is go through and look at everything and say okay this is where we think you're out of line with the marketplace and that will give us a chance to kind of reset gives us a chance to look at everything in a more global scale now
  • 00:27:14
    One of the interesting things is, and this goes back to the previous slide on the labor market, is you can have the greatest wage rates around, but if your hiring practices don't allow you to go out and get those folks, you still have a problem.
  • 00:27:30
    The City of St Paul has a civil service rule system that dates back to about 1914.
  • 00:27:36
    This is a merit hiring process.
  • 00:27:39
    This is something that you want to have.
  • 00:27:41
    You want to prohibit political patronage.
  • 00:27:45
    In my time here, and I've spent about 25 years here, we have not had a full-scale review of these rules.
  • 00:27:54
    We have tinkered with them, we have made some changes, but we cannot continue with the same hiring practices that we had in the 1980s.
  • 00:28:01
    It doesn't work anymore in this workforce.
  • 00:28:05
    So we have been meeting regularly with a number of stakeholders going through saying, how can we change this?
  • 00:28:12
    Sometimes it's as easy as just saying, why do we have this archaic language?
  • 00:28:17
    So with, as an example, in our discipline section, I can't even understand what are you talking about in this?
  • 00:28:22
    Let's list some of the actual things.
  • 00:28:25
    Now, as you'll recall, we did make a change to like the length of the list that were available.
  • 00:28:31
    We went from one year down to six months.
  • 00:28:35
    well that's an improvement it means a lot more work for HR however it's still not reactive enough for the marketplace that's the type of thing that we need to look at again and say are we in the best place because waiting for someone expecting someone to wait six months for a job it's not a great spot to be in so those are the kind of changes we're looking at we are near completion of that we will be coming around we will talk to the council about this one
  • 00:29:03
    this isn't a negotiation item however you must give notice to the unions on this so we will be talking to the unions as we go through with the proposal but ultimately this body is responsible for approving changes to the civil service rules and how we proceed on that so it will be coming back to this group eventually all right final thoughts
  • 00:29:31
    Negotiations is really competing interests.
  • 00:29:35
    It is going to be contentious.
  • 00:29:37
    I cannot make this all a happy place.
  • 00:29:40
    It's going to be conflict.
  • 00:29:42
    However, in St. Paul, we're actually blessed to have well-funded, well-organized unions.
  • 00:29:50
    That means typically they negotiate hard, which they're supposed to for the membership.
  • 00:29:57
    And there will be competing interests on it.
  • 00:29:59
    So, you know,
  • 00:30:01
    it is going to be difficult at some points however it does get through I don't need to tell this group that what is going on on the national scene also complicates things it adds stress to this process which is it's not something that's needed but it happens so that's also going to drive some of the things that happen in negotiations this round we can't get around that
  • 00:30:23
    but what I would say to you is this is a process you have to let it work through and ultimately there is an endgame to it either we will come to a decision or if we need to there is the opportunity the unions have a right to strike the unions have a right to arbitrate it will get resolved might not always be pretty but we will get to a resolution of these things and we'll keep the workforce intact
• • Nelsie Yang
  • 00:30:53
    Council Member Johnson.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 00:30:57
    Okay.
  • 00:30:57
    I'm short.
  • 00:30:58
    Okay.
  • 00:30:59
    I don't sit in the corner often.
  • 00:31:00
    I see you now.
  • 00:31:01
    I'm like, come over there.
  • 00:31:03
    That's a long reach.
  • 00:31:05
    So can you just share a little bit about like how, so if a department, you share kind of like you've touched base with departments, but if a department or even let's say the council has like questions or thoughts about maybe a particular thing in the union agreements or something that we want
  • 00:31:21
    for the Department of Human Resources to look into like how do we what does that process look like from an initiation standpoint is that just something that we like call you up and we're like hey this is something I want you to know for whenever the negotiations come back around or is there something is there a formal process to initiate that?
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:31:40
    Council, council members so what I would say is we canvas all of the departments on this
  • 00:31:46
    and this is also a department.
  • 00:31:49
    So yes, you can absolutely make requests and these kind of things.
  • 00:31:52
    You have AFSCME represented employees that work within the Council.
  • 00:31:57
    So you have just as much right to express your opinion on that as any other department does.
• • Matt Privratsky
  • 00:32:07
    Thank you, Chair Yang.
  • 00:32:08
    Really appreciate this breakdown.
  • 00:32:10
    Even in my time as an aide, I don't know that I ever specifically saw a presentation about this item or if I did.
  • 00:32:17
    Apologies for not remembering.
  • 00:32:19
    I particularly am curious about early on you spoke to some of the difference between the trades and traditional.
  • 00:32:25
    and I want to make sure I'm appreciating the full picture on the trade side.
  • 00:32:29
    One small element I was curious about, I noticed the operating engineers and laborers, and labor is obviously part of the Tri-Council, were considered part of traditional.
  • 00:32:39
    I think in conversational, anecdotal conversation, I think I've found them to be grouped with the trades, but I'm assuming there's sort of historical context for why they wouldn't be in that trade group.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:32:51
    Yes, Council Member.
  • 00:32:52
    My response to
  • 00:33:01
    In the outside world, those are probably considered more of a trade group.
  • 00:33:05
    However, here, they are considered more traditional because we negotiate terms and conditions of employment with them.
  • 00:33:12
    We are not party to an outside agreement like an electrician would be.
  • 00:33:16
    So again, that electrician would have the same wage rate, the same benefits across all the contractors.
  • 00:33:22
    Here, they would be very specific to the City of St Paul.
  • 00:33:26
    So like the laborers also operate in Minneapolis.
  • 00:33:29
    They would have a different contract.
  • 00:33:32
    If it were a true trades setup, we would have the same rates, the same benefits as Minneapolis would.
  • 00:33:38
    It is a historical context to how this is set up.
  • 00:33:41
    So you're correct in that.
• • Matt Privratsky
  • 00:33:44
    And thank you, Chair Yang.
  • 00:33:47
    And then more generally, just to make sure I fully appreciate, because that's very helpful.
  • 00:33:51
    And so to make sure I'm fully processing this correctly, all of those trades, the folks who are built into the trades versus traditional category, all of the negotiation and contract work the city does then is through the actual local.
  • 00:34:04
    And those folks would be considered to, even if they are city workers, are we, is it sort of, I'm just curious to make sure I'm processing this correctly.
  • 00:34:12
    You mentioned we're not paying
  • 00:34:14
    benefits in the same exact way, you know, all the things are categorized or sorted slightly differently.
  • 00:34:19
    I'm just trying to make sure I appreciate sort of what that categorization means in terms of that relationship with the...
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:34:26
    Okay.
  • 00:34:26
    So Chair Yang, Council Member, I'll take a step back.
• • Matt Privratsky
  • 00:34:31
    Yeah.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:34:31
    Let's look, let's look at the electric, uh, pipe car, carpenters are open this round, aren't they?
  • 00:34:38
    Okay.
  • 00:34:38
    So the carpenters, carpenters union.
  • 00:34:41
    We pay the outside rate.
  • 00:34:43
    So that is one number.
  • 00:34:46
    And let's just say it's $90 an hour.
  • 00:34:49
    In that $90 an hour, it is broken down into wage, health and welfare, vacation, pension, probably a couple other things.
  • 00:35:00
    We don't care what the breakdown is.
  • 00:35:04
    We only care about that top line.
  • 00:35:07
    So we send that $90 an hour for every employee we have to the union, and then they deal with it.
  • 00:35:13
    That is their wages and benefits.
  • 00:35:17
    Let's take AFSCME.
  • 00:35:20
    AFSCME is a traditional union.
  • 00:35:22
    For that group, we are negotiating their wage rate, then we are negotiating their health insurance contribution,
  • 00:35:30
    their pension is separate but let's say uniform reimbursement any shift differential any of those kind of things so we don't really have a true outside rate or total package number we could certainly figure it out but it would be different for each job whereas an electrician or a carpenter you have one homogeneous group and you're paying this amount okay does that
• • Matt Privratsky
  • 00:35:57
    I mean in my head I'm trying just to make sure I know how to internally categorize and I think even talking about that macro global rate versus all the micro individual numbers to go through is a good way for me to sort it because I once it gets too complex you know I can only handle so much so even that even that simplicity is actually really helpful
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:36:22
    It's very complex for us as well and what I would say is the the negotiations with the true trades are typically less contentious because oftentimes that happens on the outside and that's where you once in a while you will actually see a strike for carpenters on the outside or a group.
  • 00:36:40
    We're kind of at the tail end of that.
  • 00:36:42
    Now there are some earn safe and sick some of those type benefits we do have to put in.
  • 00:36:48
    However, what you really think of as the terms and conditions of employment are already established by the outside agreement, that total package number.
  • 00:36:58
    Whereas all the other groups, we negotiate every aspect of the agreement, in a tentative agreement, any terms and conditions.
  • 00:37:08
    Those are negotiated by the three negotiators approved by this body.
• • Saura Jost
  • 00:37:14
    Thank You Jerry I had a question about the you talked about like Interest arbitration or strikes and you said we hadn't had a strike since the 1970s, but have we had interest arbitrations with the any of the essential essential groups Council chair council member yes, we have had interest arbitrations in fact I wasn't around for the last round of negotiations, but I
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:37:42
    There was actually an interest arbitration with the firefighters local 21 union in the last round.
  • 00:37:49
    City Council, and
  • 00:38:14
    You pattern bargain, but it doesn't mean that everyone is going to get exactly the same You have to pay attention to market focuses.
  • 00:38:20
    You have to pay attention to the little things that happen So sometimes you will get different rates.
  • 00:38:26
    What I would say is essentially The rates that are provided are equivalent not equal that makes sense so and again Councilmember sometimes I will say on the union side that
  • 00:38:44
    they want to
  • 00:39:06
    and City Council.
  • 00:39:28
    We have had some unions that have gone to interest arbitration and come out in a worse spot than what they were offered in negotiations.
  • 00:39:36
    And part of that is, that's a good thing too.
  • 00:39:40
    I don't mean to malign some unions on that, but you have to understand that it's expensive, it's time consuming, and you might not get what you want.
  • 00:39:48
    It is better, it is always better to have a negotiated agreement.
  • 00:39:52
    But sometimes you can't get to that point and you will need an outside party to make that decision.
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 00:40:00
    Council Member Bily.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:40:18
    So in the City of St. Paul again it is contentious one of the patterns that has been developing over the last few years and I've talked to the
  • 00:40:29
    the Commissioner of the BMS about this is there are more intent to strike notices that have been going on but there are actually not as many actual strikes.
  • 00:40:39
    A strike is a huge step for both parties to take because employees are not paid during that period.
  • 00:40:46
    That's a huge hardship for employees to go through and on the city side or on the employer side you're doing without the labor.
  • 00:40:53
    Now we can we'll
  • 00:40:54
    If that ever happens we will be in a position to manage it the best that we possibly can but it will be ugly so what I would say is we have experienced a number of Notices so remember I talked about when you get to that Period where you can't come to a tentative agreement you go to the Bureau of mediation services they are gonna beat up both parties trying to get to an agreement because we want that and
  • 00:41:20
    if that doesn't happen basically the Bureau of Mediation Services will say okay you two are now at impasse 10 days cooling off period and then union you have a right to strike.
  • 00:41:34
    The union has a right to strike for the next once that 10 days is over they have a right to strike I believe it is for the next 30 days and they what and as an example a
  • 00:41:44
    to the point where a union might do it right before a big event or they might do it if it's a laboring group, maybe before a snowstorm.
  • 00:41:52
    They're going to use that kind of pressure.
  • 00:41:54
    That's their right.
  • 00:41:54
    They're being smart about it.
  • 00:41:56
    But they don't have to.
  • 00:41:58
    If they give an intent to strike, it means they have the ability to.
  • 00:42:03
    They're primed.
  • 00:42:03
    They're ready to go.
  • 00:42:05
    That is happening a lot more in the state of Minnesota.
  • 00:42:08
    More and more groups are getting to the point
  • 00:42:11
    We're not happy with you, we don't like this, this is our intent to strike.
  • 00:42:16
    But ultimately there are not that many strikes.
  • 00:42:18
    For as many unionized employees as there are in the city and the state of Minnesota, and Minnesota is one of the more heavily unionized states, we still don't have that many strikes.
  • 00:42:31
    Which is positive, but ultimately it's part of the process, it can happen.
  • 00:42:37
    Thank you, Chair Yang.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 00:42:43
    Thank you, Jason.
  • 00:42:44
    Well, I have a question.
  • 00:42:46
    I know it came in when you were talking about the civil service rules.
  • 00:42:49
    Out of curiosity, just because I know in City Council, civil service rules apply in terms like the central staff.
  • 00:42:58
    I'm just curious, what are the positions that the civil service rules
  • 00:43:03
    Chair and
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:43:25
    The civil service rules essentially apply to the certified positions in the City of St. Paul.
  • 00:43:30
    And when I say certified, what that means is you have taken some sort of exam, whatever that may be, written test, interview, whatever, to become a certified employee.
  • 00:43:43
    That would not include department directors and most deputy directors.
  • 00:43:49
    that's when I go back to those are the non-rep folks in the City of St Paul so they have no ability to be in a union.
  • 00:43:57
    They are not covered by the civil service rules and again this is set up as a to prevent political patronage but the state also recognizes that when an administration comes in they want their own folks in the top positions.
  • 00:44:12
    So typically it is just that top layer that would not be covered by the civil service rules.
  • 00:44:18
    Unless a group chooses to negotiate away the civil service rules that is an example for the trades So all of the trades are not part of the civil service process Okay, so it means I'm a great deal more flexibility in hiring process and we're still a merit system That's in the charter that we must be a merit system
  • 00:44:40
    but the civil service rules that prescribe step ABC, you know how you hire, that doesn't apply.
  • 00:44:46
    So we can actually hire a lot faster with the trades employees.
  • 00:44:51
    What we are talking about in reforming the civil service rules is not the elimination of it.
  • 00:44:57
    We still need a process to go through.
  • 00:45:00
    But again, we don't want to be in a 1980s hiring mode.
  • 00:45:04
    It doesn't work anymore.
  • 00:45:06
    It's not responsive enough to the marketplace.
  • 00:45:08
    We need to make changes.
  • 00:45:10
    There will be individuals that will not be happy with this because it's change.
  • 00:45:15
    But the city has changed.
  • 00:45:17
    It's time to put a new set of rules in place.
• • Matt Privratsky
  • 00:45:23
    I'm curious you mentioned at the top and then it was referenced again the 98% unionized and the 25 you know union units I'm curious even for context you said a lot of the times and once we get to arbitration it's a more formal process the comparisons given would be like a Ramsey County a Minneapolis the state of Minnesota
  • 00:45:49
    It really depends upon who you're talking about.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:46:10
    I'll answer it this way.
  • 00:46:12
    So I previously worked for the Metropolitan Airport Commission and down there about they have about 700 employees that actually work for the airport half of them were organized Now they had police unions.
  • 00:46:29
    They had a fire unit.
  • 00:46:30
    They had a local 70 operating engineers type unions
  • 00:46:37
    The organizations that don't have as heavily unionized workforce have a lot more ability to make changes, set rates.
  • 00:46:46
    But we are still going to be compared to them.
  • 00:46:49
    that's just how it happens especially the biggest one police and fire are homogeneous groups okay so a firefighter here is essentially a firefighter here is essentially firefighter here now ours have an EMS service so they're a little bit different but we will be compared to Minneapolis we will be compared even in those situations to a Bloomington those comparisons are made
  • 00:47:13
    and as much as we are going to say, are you kidding me, we're a much bigger organization, you still are compared.
  • 00:47:21
    It especially happens, the hardest comparison is probably with police officers.
  • 00:47:26
    The union that represents our police officers, their attorney typically takes the rates of every police officer and just goes through a 30-year career and says, well, you're number 29, how can this be?
  • 00:47:39
    Well, okay, not quite the same.
  • 00:47:42
    and the
  • 00:47:58
    is
  • 00:48:20
    I would tell you that in arbitration, the arbitrators typically focus mainly on Minnesota.
  • 00:48:31
    They're not as inclined to go further than that.
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 00:48:35
    Chair Yang, could you speak to the number of unions represented in Minneapolis and Ramsey County compared to us?
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:48:47
    I wouldn't have them exactly.
  • 00:48:50
    I do know Minneapolis has got a similar number of unions but I do not believe that they are as heavily unionized as we are.
  • 00:48:59
    So what that means is they might have 20 unions as well over there so they have a significant labor presence but if only two-thirds of your workforce is unionized it's not the same situation.
  • 00:49:12
    and being heavily unionized, it's not a bad thing.
  • 00:49:14
    I mean, unions, they represent employees, they advocate for them, they actually hold our managers accountable because you can't do dumb stuff when you're a manager because the union is going to be there and they're going to correct those kind of things.
  • 00:49:26
    That isn't a bad thing.
  • 00:49:28
    It does mean that you can't necessarily change everything on a whim.
  • 00:49:32
    You are going to have to work through certain processes.
  • 00:49:35
    That's not, excuse me, that's not a bad thing.
• • Rebecca Noecker
  • 00:49:40
    Council Member Nieker.
  • 00:49:41
    Thanks, Chair Yang, and sorry for being late.
  • 00:49:43
    Thanks so much, Mr. Schmidt, and don't answer this question if you already have, but I have to imagine that there are a number of factors that go into negotiations besides just sort of the cold, hard, objective negotiations over things like wages and benefits.
  • 00:49:57
    You mentioned here there's a lot of other terms and conditions of employment, and I'm thinking about the scenario in which those negotiations happen, how people are coming to the table probably has a lot to do with some of those
  • 00:50:09
    Committee.
  • 00:50:25
    So, Council members, what I would say is, again,
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:50:52
    The national scene has an impact on what we do here.
  • 00:50:57
    It adds stress to the process.
  • 00:50:59
    It increases the anxiety of the employees.
  • 00:51:02
    And to be blunt, when we're talking about federal grants being cut, that could trickle down to jobs here because we are reliant on that.
  • 00:51:11
    So those kind of things will put an added
  • 00:51:15
    item on the table.
  • 00:51:16
    They may want to talk more about layoff language.
  • 00:51:19
    They may want to talk about severance pieces.
  • 00:51:23
    So you cannot negotiate in a vacuum.
  • 00:51:26
    It just doesn't happen.
  • 00:51:28
    So that's an example of an impact.
  • 00:51:31
    What I would say is, again, this is a contentious process.
  • 00:51:38
    You have to have a fairly thick skin to work in this line of business, but
  • 00:51:44
    Employees should expect a zealous union representing them.
  • 00:51:50
    It's their interest.
  • 00:51:51
    And we liken it, when I talk to new employees at New Employee Orientation, I actually encourage them to get involved in their union.
  • 00:51:59
    It is your future that we're talking about here.
  • 00:52:02
    And it's just like the people that don't vote.
  • 00:52:04
    If you don't vote, you shut up.
  • 00:52:07
    No.
  • 00:52:07
    You have to be part of the process and have your voice heard.
  • 00:52:12
    what that does mean for negotiations and it depends upon the union is sometimes a union will not put any filter on the issues that come into negotiations so there are certain groups that will come in with 40 issues and they know that they're if you if you come to me and you try and say we want to go after this management right you're not going to get very far with me I will not negotiate away our rights we have to be able to manage the city
  • 00:52:40
    but that is going to delay negotiations.
  • 00:52:43
    That's going to be more difficult.
  • 00:52:44
    So I have been here long enough to know most of the people that represent the unions, a lot of the presidents, a lot of the employees and I think we have built up a reputation that you might not like what I have to say but I'm not here to, you know,
  • 00:53:05
    make your life more difficult.
  • 00:53:07
    We have a job to do.
  • 00:53:08
    We need to be responsible to the taxpayers, but we have an organization to run.
  • 00:53:12
    So part of that is you need to pay people appropriately.
  • 00:53:16
    You need to have the appropriate rules in place, but you also need to be able to manage it.
  • 00:53:21
    And I can't give you an answer of what will come out of this round of negotiations.
  • 00:53:26
    It is challenging.
  • 00:53:27
    The economic environment is kind of all over the place.
  • 00:53:31
    we know what some of the other jurisdictions have settled at but it is kind of all over the board at this place right now so I'm optimistic that we can get through this process without too much consternation but it could be very difficult we just don't know at this point
• • Nelsie Yang
  • 00:53:49
    Thank you.
  • 00:53:49
    I have a few comments to make here.
  • 00:53:51
    I first want to say thank you, Jason, for the baseline knowledge that you are sharing to the Council here about our bargaining process.
  • 00:53:59
    Seven years ago, I was a former union steward when I worked at Take Action Minnesota, so everything you have shared just brings up so much nostalgia for me.
  • 00:54:07
    and I really commend you all.
  • 00:54:09
    I mean it's a team of three really steering such an important process here on behalf of our city.
  • 00:54:14
    This is the body that approves the contracts and I sort of imagine that when you are at the bargaining table you are
  • 00:54:24
    and the City Council.
  • 00:54:41
    knowing that we haven't passed a budget for the next year yet, but for sure, like I said, there's budget implications with decisions that are made.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:54:50
    Absolutely, Council Chair.
  • 00:54:51
    So what I would say is we typically go into negotiations with a game plan.
  • 00:54:58
    So we're looking at the marketplace and where we have to be to attract and retain talent.
  • 00:55:04
    that is balanced with our own economic environment and what we are able to do.
  • 00:55:09
    So again, I would look to the mayor's office and the Office of Finance of what kind of parameters we're looking at here and what can we reasonably expect in negotiations.
  • 00:55:20
    Now that may all go south very quickly depending upon what the union's expectation is in those negotiations.
  • 00:55:29
    So I mean what I'm answering is that
  • 00:55:33
    Again, I mentioned previously we prefer a three-year agreement So once we have a three-year agreement, we know what we are managing to Now that might create more budget pressure and might create less budget pressure So when we settled with the police a couple of years ago, we were out three years so the settlement that we have for 2026 is now in place and that that kind of forms our pattern moving forward unless everything goes to hell and then we have to make some changes so
  • 00:56:02
    that's kind of how we work
  • 00:56:11
    to take my direction from the mayor and where he wants us to go on those kind of things, knowing that if we get into a potential strike situation or we get into an interest arbitration, the arbitrator will not care.
  • 00:56:26
    The arbitrator can make the decision based on what he or she feels is appropriate.
  • 00:56:31
    So you may have settled every contract at 3%.
  • 00:56:34
    The arbitrator can literally say, no, five is appropriate and you have no recourse.
  • 00:56:40
    so interest arbitration is not something you go into lightly and that's why we have our position approved by the council before we go into it.
• • Nelsie Yang
  • 00:56:50
    Thank you and just one last question for from me I know earlier you mentioned we as council members we can have conversations with you I mean it sounds like pretty much about things that we're hearing from from city workers which is very common I mean even when we have our budget public hearing process out in the community
  • 00:57:09
    we're also seeing city staff come and testify to.
  • 00:57:12
    I know that sometimes that might be out of the bargaining process and that's okay.
  • 00:57:19
    And I basically am wondering, I know that in the presentation here and even based off of my experience during the Council here that there is, it clearly lays out the role that we play as a Council which is approving the contracts
  • 00:57:35
    And you mentioned we can come to you can have discussions with you, too What are your thoughts though about how the council can get involved?
  • 00:57:44
    Not in a way where we're at the bargaining table with you But but like I would just say in general you know because we are hearing from folks And I know we can certainly have conversations with you about it But are there other ways to that the council here can show up to be?
  • 00:57:59
    be in I would say
  • 00:58:03
    of the city of St. Paul.
  • 00:58:05
    I think we need to be involved more collaborative and also to showcase we are not just here doing the traditional thing of approving contracts that come our way automatically but then if folks are wondering what more we can do what are those things?
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:58:20
    What I would say to that is again I will go back to the original slide is the mayor'
  • 00:58:31
    However, your relationship with the mayor and how you interact and the roles that you play would be a question much better directed to him about how that process can work.
  • 00:58:41
    What I would say is that we have, there are several unions that have a high percentage of employees that actually live in the city of St. Paul.
  • 00:58:49
    So they are going to have these other rights.
  • 00:58:51
    That might be outside of the negotiation process, but that's their democratic right to come here and talk to you about those things as well.
  • 00:58:58
    That's not negotiations.
  • 00:59:00
    That is them acting as a citizen.
• • Nelsie Yang
  • 00:59:03
    Thank you.
• • Rebecca Noecker
  • 00:59:04
    Council President Aker.
  • 00:59:05
    Thanks Chair Yang.
  • 00:59:06
    Just to follow up on that, so it sounds like what you're saying is there are informal conversations that we can have, but the formal council influence is the vote on the contract.
  • 00:59:16
    What would happen if we did not approve a contract?
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:59:22
    If the city did not approve the agreement, it would go back to the negotiations process.
  • 00:59:32
    Since it has been reached in good faith, that would be a question that could be raised by the union.
  • 00:59:38
    That would be a legal process that would happen.
  • 00:59:40
    and I would defer to the city attorney on where we would go to there.
  • 00:59:44
    But similar to negotiations that happen, the union has to have their agreements approved.
  • 00:59:50
    Sorry, we have to have our agreements approved as well.
  • 00:59:54
    So in my perspective as a negotiator, I would simply go back to the table on that.
• • Saura Jost
  • 01:00:02
    Thank you, Chair.
  • 01:00:04
    Kind of similar question, so
  • 01:00:08
    Committee.
  • 01:00:23
    for the collective bargaining, and it says that it's approved and ratified by administrative ordinance.
  • 01:00:29
    So is that, and I don't know if you know the answer to this question, but does that mean that it's actually an ordinance being three readings?
  • 01:00:38
    Because I just haven't seen that happen before, and so I was just curious about that process.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 01:00:44
    Council, Chair, Council Members, my understanding is, and I've seen some memos out of the City Attorney's Office on this, is that it is basically governed by the two documents that I listed.
  • 01:00:57
    Now I believe there are some changes that would require three readings.
  • 01:01:01
    I can
  • 01:01:05
    I'm sorry, off the top of my head I cannot come up with those, but the collective bargaining agreement, memorandums of understandings, wage rates, those are done by resolution, which is two readings.
• • Saura Jost
  • 01:01:17
    Okay, I guess I have one more question that Chair Yang made me think about when we're in the budget process and a lot of in this last budget,
  • 01:01:26
    what was already in the budget was based on previous agreements that had already been decided that we you know we we are part of this process it looks like you know because we approve the resolution or ordinance these agreements but I think I'm just thinking that you know we we we would want to be involved in some way just because it's related to to the budget I don't know really what that would look like but it can be challenging for us when
  • 01:01:52
    you know like this this past year the majority of the the levy was due to like wages and salaries and those things that we you know we weren't a part of which I think that makes sense because you know this is negotiated in good faith and through an agreement that everybody comes to but it just it can put us in a little bit of a challenging position and I don't know like what that's looked like in the past or what how we've been involved or what we've been able to do but that was just something that I recognized this past year
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 01:02:20
    Council Chair, Council Members, I do appreciate that part of it.
  • 01:02:24
    Again, I will go back to the chapter 23 defines the mayor as in charge of labor relations.
  • 01:02:30
    So I'm going to take my direction from him and your relationship with the administration and how that works is something to be worked out by the two bodies.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 01:02:40
    Council Member Bui.
  • 01:02:41
    Thank you, Chair Yang.
  • 01:02:42
    Thank you, Deputy Director.
  • 01:02:43
    I'm Jason.
  • 01:02:44
    I just wanted to piggyback off of the comments and the questions, particularly around the informal and formal process.
  • 01:02:51
    And I guess just give an example to make it real in terms of how Council is figuring out our role.
  • 01:02:59
    Even last year with the budget that we had voted on, one of the things that we saw was there was an increase in salaries.
  • 01:03:10
    and also with the overtime.
  • 01:03:11
    And one of those things that informed it was the police contract that we voted on in beginning of February.
  • 01:03:19
    And many of us, a new body coming in on the wave of the hoorah and everything and the police contracts, it was several labor contracts that was in consent.
  • 01:03:34
    on the consent agenda.
  • 01:03:35
    So I'm just wondering, particularly as a body, if we can move forward with getting more efforts and intentionality around getting those briefings.
  • 01:03:45
    Because that police contract that we voted on, I never received a briefing on it.
  • 01:03:50
    I mean, that was something pretty serious.
  • 01:03:54
    And I understand the thoughts that went into it and the good faith that went into it to make our
  • 01:03:59
    and the
  • 01:04:11
    I understand the the the the context of like the mayor's authority, but I think also what I'm hearing is that council at least want to be briefed about certain Agreements that's taking place and so I'll leave that there, but also I want to highlight something that's on the agenda for
  • 01:04:34
    that I think is part of the labor relations is item number, item 11, which is approving the memorandums of agreement between the City of St. Paul and AFSCME, and it's like piloting a equitable language compensation premium.
  • 01:04:51
    I heard briefly about it when I was at a meeting at Rondo Community Library, but that's just like kind of another example where a lot of these contract agreements are on consent and
  • 01:05:02
    I mean unless we have capacity and interest but I think that's something that we should bring before whether it's the budget committee or org committee if people are interested.
• • Nelsie Yang
  • 01:05:15
    Council President Nieker.
• • Rebecca Noecker
  • 01:05:16
    Thanks Chair Yang.
  • 01:05:16
    Ms. Bui, I really appreciate that thought.
  • 01:05:18
    I was having a similar line of thought about just what information is daylighted in the agendas that we get once we actually get to the point of approving a contract and to your point it's not
  • 01:05:30
    It's on consent and it's a really big decision that affects our budget, that affects even just our understanding and the public's understanding of the unions that we have, the negotiations that we go through.
  • 01:05:39
    So I would certainly be in favor if others were interested in this and having contract approvals not automatically beyond consent, but beyond discussion and have a brief staff report that just highlights what happened in that negotiation, what's included in the contract.
  • 01:05:56
    I appreciate what Mr. Schmidt is saying about these contracts happening between the two parties in good faith.
  • 01:06:01
    I would be hesitant to step in at the last minute and undo any of that, but I do think understanding what happened and what we're approving and what implications that may have later on might be useful.
• • Matt Privratsky
  • 01:06:15
    Chair Yang, I would agree with Council President Aker and I really appreciate Council Member Bui bringing that up because even in my days as an aide or early days as a member, those items feel so fully cooked or fully baked that I actually traditionally haven't even asked the labor relations team to come in to do a briefing like that and actually just the awareness part is the part that I'm most
  • 01:06:42
    being familiar with a new pilot program or a new element or even hearing about how the discussion went, I think that that information sharing for sure is something I agree with.
  • 01:06:53
    You can tell by the basic nature of my original questions how very lean I am on appreciating the nuances of this.
  • 01:06:59
    So I think even on our own end, asking for those briefings is a really smart thing that I'll definitely take to heart.
• • Nelsie Yang
  • 01:07:08
    Council Member Johnson.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 01:07:10
    And I guess just in regards to that, are you, um, council member Bui, I think the part of your question of whether or not that's a part of the labor agreements.
  • 01:07:20
    So for item number, um, 11 it's resolution 25, 4, 6, 6.
  • 01:07:25
    I'm just wondering, is that a part of the labor negotiations that's on the item today for council?
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 01:07:35
    So council members, um, what I would say is,
  • 01:07:39
    A collective bargaining agreement is typically what you will see and that encompasses all of the agreements that were reached between the parties.
  • 01:07:47
    A memorandum of understanding or memorandum of agreement is typically something that happens during the dependency of the collective bargaining agreement.
  • 01:07:58
    It varies the terms of the collective bargaining agreement.
  • 01:08:01
    So it's a binding agreement reached between the parties that
  • 01:08:06
    Basically says you know what the contract says X, but we're actually going to try Y for whatever period Thanks chair Yang.
• • Rebecca Noecker
  • 01:08:19
    This is why these committee meetings are so helpful would it be possible mr. Schmidt is someone available today to To speak to number 11 on our agenda.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 01:08:26
    Just what it is and what I can certainly check on that Any other questions or comments
• • Nelsie Yang
  • 01:08:35
    All right, well, I will just close off our committee meeting here by sharing that I am very supportive of getting, I would say, like recaps of the contracts that do come before us.
  • 01:08:48
    I mean, I know that you all, if I remember correctly, you do have attachments, but even just getting like bullet points on here are the highlights of
  • 01:08:56
    Council Member Johnson,
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 01:09:15
    Council.
  • 01:09:32
    it's a little hard for me to know like when like when um estimate is coming up or when uh the police union is coming back to the council like some of those things that i should be um usually until they get in front of our our um our agendas it's always hard to know like what is coming is do we have like a like when things are expiring and when terms are gotta be reconsidered
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 01:09:54
    So, Council Chair, Council Members, I do have a document that I can certainly share with the Council that lists the status of each individual contract.
  • 01:10:04
    I think that would be helpful for you to see.
  • 01:10:06
    One of the other things you often see coming through are, for those trades contracts that I talked about, every year we are required to come back to you with the adjustments.
  • 01:10:19
    So we may know that
  • 01:10:21
    the contract the total package goes from say 90 to 92 the city attorney has determined that we need to come back and show you where that two dollars is going so that's why you'll see more of those so that'll also be on the document
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 01:10:37
    okay thank you I think that would just be really easy it would be easier to anticipate you know I see the you know we have 25 but we have 25 unions and 22 bargaining units but I wouldn't know that the timelines of when they're gonna be coming through and I would say on the relationship standpoint like I understand and appreciate your reference to chapter 23 it's easier for me to talk to the mayor about an upcoming bargaining negotiation if I know what's coming so I if I can get that timeline space I think it'll be really easy for me to be able to make that adjustment
• • Nelsie Yang
  • 01:11:08
    Yes, can you come to the mic?
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 01:11:14
    I have a few things that I want to address.
  • 01:11:18
    So last year, 2024 was like a bye year for me because I had a baby, so I don't remember some stuff.
  • 01:11:22
    But right before I went on maternity leave, we did briefings with you all except for, we did with Council President Jalali.
  • 01:11:32
    I can't remember her last name, goodness.
  • 01:11:34
    But Council Member, we will need to do that briefing with you all.
  • 01:11:38
    In that handout that we gave you has that timeline of when the contracts came up.
  • 01:11:42
    So you do have it, and we are happy to provide it to you again.
  • 01:11:47
    I think that that would be helpful.
  • 01:11:49
    And so that was the purpose of those briefings that we had, to both talk to you about the civil service rules, but to give you kind of a mini version of this, of what Jason just did today.
  • 01:11:59
    So I just wanted to remind you of the fact that you have access to that.
  • 01:12:02
    We can provide it to you again, but it does highlight what that timeline is.
  • 01:12:07
    the other thing that I want to lift up that Jason highlighted while we're talking about rules and responsibilities who's on first and who's on second as it relates to the contract negotiations we all understand that I think it's important just to highlight again
  • 01:12:22
    to for the electives to talk at the level of about how we want to proceed and the plans because we're at the staff level doing what the mayor told us to do right and I think there's an opportunity to coordinate and to collaborate for sure because you are going to be faced with those those questions from the unions they're going to lobby you.
  • 01:12:40
    and say, hey, Jason, we're mad at Jason, we're mad at Tony and what are we going to do about it, right?
  • 01:12:45
    And we know that that's going to happen and we don't want to put you in a position or we don't want to be in a position where we don't operate in good faith with getting to a settlement, which is our ultimate goal.
  • 01:12:55
    so I think that there's an opportunity there and just to highlight what we do on the staff level across departments is we do have a negotiation strategy session of some sort Jason does bring and collaborate with the department directors and ask like what do you want what do you want and I think that there's an opportunity there because you all are in this case seen as a department so to speak but then you have that added layer with with the elected so my recommendation is
  • 01:13:25
    for us in order to start this and be intentional and to collaborate across the board if you and the mayor, you all, this body and the mayor have the conversation about how we proceed and then for Jason and I it's just a matter of how you all are included because it's going to be tricky.
  • 01:13:40
    What Jason didn't say but was kind of saying I think is kind of the elephant in the room around this is that the unions are going to lob you all.
  • 01:13:47
    we're on the other side right and it can be very contentious and so how do you all show up how versus how we all show up so it's very tricky of how we negotiate how we navigate through that and we want to be respectful of that because uh you know the and you and Chair Yang I know you have this experience of being unions they will if they're seeing like some dividedness or like we're not all on the same page
  • 01:14:11
    committee.
  • 01:14:31
    Council.
  • 01:14:50
    and we are going to be coming back to you all on those briefings and the timing of when we do that will also be the timing of budget, will also be the timing of negotiations, so lots of things are going to be happening at the same time and so it's going to be really important as we mentioned to you all when we briefed you last summer
  • 01:15:10
    that you know what's going on.
  • 01:15:13
    You may disagree with us, but you know what's going on and that you have the information that you need.
  • 01:15:18
    And so I just wanted to lift up a few of those things as Jason talked about, but we're here to collaborate with you all as much as possible with that, but just want to make sure at the top levels, your level with the mayor, that we understand and have an agreement about how we're going to proceed knowing what our different roles are, and that we're happy to come in and collaborate with you all as needed.
• • Nelsie Yang
  • 01:15:41
    Thanks, Chair Yang.
• • Rebecca Noecker
  • 01:15:44
    Just one request when it comes to the information about the civil service rules because I recognize that's going to be a significant change.
  • 01:15:50
    It's probably going to be a lot for us all to digest as well.
  • 01:15:53
    And to your point about it happening potentially at the same time as negotiations and budget, I would just ask that you get that information to us with plenty of time for us to think about it and go back and forth with you because I think
  • 01:16:05
    Council President
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 01:16:21
    and the City Council.
  • 01:16:39
    will be engaging with staff as Jason talked about with other stakeholders and then you all are a part of that that process well in advance because we know as Jason mentioned earlier and as we said it during our briefings last summer we're really this is a nervous time right this is going to be really tricky to do this because these rules were brought in in 1914 and we haven't made any significant changes since that time
  • 01:17:02
    and so we understand the sensitive nature of it and we want to give you time to be able to digest so no issues with that.
  • 01:17:10
    Look to hear from us.
  • 01:17:11
    I won't commit to anything right now with Jason in front of me but relatively so.
  • 01:17:18
    Thank you for allowing me to step in for Jason as well.
  • 01:17:22
    Thank you for the opportunity.
  • 01:17:23
    We haven't been asked to do this type of presentation very often and it's so important.
  • 01:17:28
    We've been waiting.
  • 01:17:29
    Invite us because we want you to know you're voting on things and you need to know what you're voting on.
  • 01:17:34
    Hearing Councilmember Bui talk about you came in in February and signing off on that.
  • 01:17:40
    we want you to know it's not just like a you know just approving things and not knowing that we want you to know that because the union members and the folks are going to come and ask you about it and we want you to have the right information so we have a vested interest in that along with you all.
• • Nelsie Yang
  • 01:17:56
    Last round for questions or comments.
  • 01:17:59
    All right well thank you for the rich presentation and the conversations around the table today we are adjourned.