City Council Meeting   8/27/2024

I call our Tuesday, August 27th, 2024 City Council meeting to order.

May I read?

Vice Mayor Dent.

Here.

Council Member Robinson.

Here.

Chief Tobia.

Deputy Chief Pollard.

Here.

If you would please stand for the invocation, if you wish.

Let's see here.

Father in Heaven, we ask for your wisdom as we begin this meeting.

We acknowledge that we need your wisdom and insights as we welcome your presence among us.

God has sent our discussions and decisions, helping us to seek what is best for all involved.

We trust in your perfect wisdom and ask that you direct our meeting according to your will.

In James 1-5, it says, if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously, to all without reproach, and it will be given him.

We claim this promise as we start our meeting and trust in your provision.

Thank you for being with us always.

Alright, we do have a special recognition this evening, so I'm going to ask for Chief Topia to come forward.

Let's be honest, Noel is probably the most important person here tonight, so hey sweetheart, happy birthday Councilwoman.

Oh, thank you.

Yep.

Members of Council, thank you and good evening.

It's an opportunity to talk a little bit about

Pizza Night and the success that we had with that event and you had asked for an update on what we were able to accomplish in the four hours that Pizza Night ran for this year and I want to give you a few numbers but I want you to please understand that the numbers don't tell nearly the entire story because in and of itself the numbers are just an output.

It's the outcomes that we look for and the opportunity to engage with our community

and help make them safer and educate them about the criticality of how they can be partners in saving their own lives.

And so we really see this as just an amazing opportunity.

And the reality is that it is all coordinated by a single individual.

And that is Lieutenant Aaron Staley.

In the four hours that we operated this year, we checked 307 residences were checked.

888 smoke alarms were checked 78 smoke alarms were replaced 51 smoke alarm batteries were replaced 42 carbon monoxide alarms were checked 27 carbon monoxide alarms were replaced 2 carbon monoxide batteries were replaced

We intervened in 140 owned properties and 167 rental properties and of course we received calls from both city and county residents and were always mindful of the focus that we have.

There were nearly 100 volunteers involved in this year's efforts, included not only members of the Harrisonburg Fire Department and we are extraordinarily proud

to be able to wear this uniform, but it also included representatives from other departments across city government.

We took advantage of numerous individuals who serve as Spanish language interpreters, which is the second most common language that we encounter.

And not only were those individuals involved in receiving phone calls, but they also were embedded in the crews that went out.

And I think it's important to just note that

We literally are complete strangers to individuals when we knock on their door and they give us unfettered access because they trust us because they know that we are here for them and our Spanish language interpreters are critical in how they are able to bridge that gap of language and you cannot imagine the value that people see when they know that we are willing to speak their language

We also had dispatchers from the Public Safety Telecommunicators from the HRECC were also involved in helping us and we had numerous local businesses engaged in helping us as well whether that was shuttling pizzas or doing live on the air broadcasts, promoting the event while it was going on and this is a true effort among all of the members.

But I do want to take a moment and just speak about Erin.

First and foremost, as you see, Erin is the mother of a beautiful little girl, Noelle, who is the light of many of our lives.

But beyond that, Erin holds a master's degree, which she earned while she was working here full time.

She's a 13-year employee.

She is responsible for helping us fill our CRR mission, which is really focused on reducing risk at every opportunity.

She is one of those individuals who lives our expectations, which is work hard, strive for perfection in everything that we do, and demonstrate compassion.

The overwhelming majority of school-aged children in the city have no idea who I am.

But they know Aaron.

That's exactly right, Madam Mayor, because when we go to schools or they see us in uniform, somewhere out in the public, they don't ask about us or the fire engine.

They don't ask about anything.

I served on a panel with Aaron as the mayor.

Nobody cared about me.

You remember that at Bluestone?

But that speaks to her connection, right?

And not only do the children recognize her, but even when they grow up and are no longer in school or they go to James Madison University, they remember Erin and they remember her message and that is as important as anything.

She also spearheaded the now very successful Camp Lit program, which identifies opportunities for young women to see other individuals be successful and see themselves in those individuals as they explore the possibility of a career in public safety.

Erin would be the first to say that she does not do any of this alone.

And that is true.

There is an incredibly dedicated team of individuals that follow her leadership, but it takes leadership.

It requires an individual who is willing to work hard, roll up their sleeves, and make things happen.

And Lieutenant Staley is most assuredly that person.

So I just wanted to take the opportunity to not only report out on pizza night, but make sure that you all are aware of the individual who's responsible primarily for that success.

So, Lieutenant Staley.

Do you want to introduce your husband?

My husband, John, is back there.

He's a force system.

I couldn't do what I do without him, so thank you.

I'll just say so.

I went on a crew out that night with folks and two of the firefighters were someone who had been on the training for two weeks, a Harrisonburg high school graduate, and someone who had relocated to Harrisonburg.

And one, they were just bubbling up with excitement.

It was really just inspiring to see.

And then the professionalism, which they carried out that role, was also just very reassuring.

They went in with confidence into the houses.

I will say that Erin and I have done a lot of work together, especially on the road.

She has been

served as a career teacher for years for on the road as well as we've been on panel discussions together and so she is a great leader and very valuable part of our community and for our children.

So thank you so much for what you do.

Thank you for your service and

Thank you for loving on our kids.

You take care of our kids.

You really do.

If I may, um, I'll just repeat what happened before seven o'clock.

Um, and so my most mostly everybody knows my wife was pregnant when I first got elected.

So my son is eight and Seth, um, he's meeting people that he's met every year for the last eight years because he's growing up and doesn't remember them, but he remembers Aaron.

and as soon as she walked in the door, he says, I know you.

And so to the mayor's point, your impact and influence has been critical.

And so we really appreciate it.

And another small anecdote was because Seth was born three weeks early after waiting to my wife and went to sleep.

I drove to Target and bought a Britax and I can't even spell that word.

So I brought it to Aaron and she put it in and I snuck back into Centera and Terra was never the wiser that Aaron put in his baby seat for him to get home nine years ago.

So thank you, thank you, thank you for all that you've done.

I'm sure you strapped in a many a child as well as protected and followed up and we greatly appreciate it.

I hate it that we missed the pizza night.

We just tried to sneak in one last family vacation.

I've been before.

I've got my t-shirt piled.

Thank you for everything you've done.

I was so thankful and impressed.

Thankful that I was able to attend that night.

Hadn't been on that side of it before, so didn't quite understand how the wheel turns.

It turned most efficiently.

So there were command stations and posts in here and there and pizza and okay, so where do I need to stand?

I learned a lot that night.

I like to think I know everything.

There were so many small things that we could do, checking batteries and so forth.

The crew that I was with was a young lady who is a firefighter now.

She used to be doing something else.

It was her whole family.

We will now go to our consent agenda.

Consent agenda, any item placed on the consent agenda shall be removed and taken up as a separate matter if so requested by any member of council.

Otherwise, all items will be voted on with one motion.

Any discussion?

Roll call please.

Council Member Fleming.

Aye.

Council Member Jones.

Aye.

Vice Mayor Dent.

Aye.

Council Member Robinson.

Aye.

Mayor Reed.

We have no public hearings this evening.

We'll go straight to our regular items.

Good evening, Mayor, Council members and staff and happy birthday, Council Member Robinson.

Thank you.

My name is Kristen McComb and I'm the Community Development Block Grant Program Manager for the City of Harrisonburg.

I am here tonight to bring an amendment to you to consider approval.

There we go.

Due to staffing changes at the suitcase clinic, they reached out earlier this summer to let us know that they would like to have their CDBG funding for the 24-25 program year reallocated to another project.

I brought this item to you for discussion and public comment last month.

This request is to move funding that was allocated to the suitcase clinic to the new homeless services center medical project and for guest area furnishings.

It's not really working very well.

The public comment period ended yesterday and no comments were received.

Any questions?

Council?

Roll call, please, Amy.

Council Member Fleming.

Aye.

Council Member Jones.

Aye.

Vice Mayor Dent.

Aye.

Council Member Robinson.

Aye.

Mayor Reed.

We'll go to Item 7B.

Madam Mayor, while they come to the podium, I think some of the background of this project really kind of falls on my shoulders.

So going all the way back to 2014, the city entered into an agreement for the purchase of what was believed to be the Thomas Harrison House on Brewstreet.

At that time, we entered into an agreement with Asbury to purchase the property, but also importantly with the Margaret Gratton Weaver Foundation, which is a nonprofit organization that has focused

a lot of resources over the years toward historic preservation.

This project has taken a lot of twists and turns over the years, but this is primarily this evening as kind of an update on where we are with that project, but then also, more importantly, a grant that Dr. Carol Nash, who's in the audience this evening, shared with us about pursuing for some additional funds for this project.

Just really quick before I turn it over to Mr. Morgan.

Again, as I said, there have been some twists and turns.

The early years were done.

We completed a lot of what I call the hard sciences.

We did soil testing, water testing, paint analysis.

Dr. Nash led some archaeological work in the basement and around the site of the building.

and then ultimately one which was a new one to me but it was called dendrochronology which is I'm not going to bore you but in essence they take wood borings from structural pieces in the house and they can match that up with tree rings and identify almost, well no, not almost, down to the season and the year in which that tree was felled.

After those hard sciences, Dr. Nash did an amazing job a number of years ago by pulling all that together and giving a presentation to the community and to City Council.

What that analysis showed us was, unfortunately, that the house was constructed in 1790, five years after Thomas Harrison passed away.

It was still on Thomas Harrison's property and could have been at the direction of Thomas Harrison or his family constructed and we still have a lot of history to dig into there.

And if anything, I think actually that kind of opened the door for a new twist on this project.

I think it allows us to use this to highlight the larger community and the history of an early Harrisonburg in the late 18th century, which might combine very well with some of the efforts currently underway in expanding the history of the African American community.

It might also provide an opportunity for the Historical Society to find space back in our downtown.

And so with that, Luke Morgan has been digging into this.

The project stands, the Weaver Foundation proposed half a million dollars, the City at the time proposed half a million dollars, and that could be potential seed money that could lead to some additional grant funds.

At the very end, Mr. Hartman, who I wisely put in charge of this project when I had failed after 10 years,

Mr. Morgan, take it away.

Sure.

So I'm Luke Morgan, the Grants and Programs Analyst.

I get the boring part of going to the grant with you while Tom gets to show you all the fun pictures.

You'll be coming in a minute.

So the purpose of this grant is the Virginia 250 Preservation Fund

It's administered by the Virginia Department of Historic Resources.

It serves to award $20 million through grants to support improvements at significant historic sites, and history museums in Virginia in anticipation of the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution and the 1776 United States Declaration of Independence.

So we're here tonight because we're in the middle of a fast-paced process to apply for this grant.

The application process consists of a pre-application, then a full application if our pre-application is approved.

The pre-application opened in mid-July and closed in just a few days on August 30th.

If our pre-application is approved, we'll be able to begin working on the full application in early September to submit it by mid-October.

Grant awards will be announced later this year, and if we receive funds, the grant-funded project must be complete in June 2026.

The grant program's rules outline eligible project activities, which include

That's not even the most fun one.

Go back one more, Amy, if you can.

Yeah, thank you.

So the grant program's rules outline eligible project activities, which include rehabilitation and or stabilization of historic resource, undertaken in accordance with the Secretary of Interior's standards, ADA accessibility improvements to the building, infrastructure improvements to an historic site, site works such as landscaping or parking improvements,

Reconstruction of and Historic Building and Fabrication and Installment of Museum Exhibits.

And I will note that eligibility is not limited to properties related directly to the American Revolution.

Let me skip ahead again.

I do.

They're good.

Yeah, that's the thing.

Thank you.

So if a project is deemed eligible, there are different grant conditions and requirements that we would have to follow.

First, regarding matching funds, a minimum one-third match is required.

This means that if we ask for $750,000, we must provide a $250,000 match.

Second, there must be a measurable public benefit associated with the project.

Examples of a public benefit include a perpetual historic preservation easement, preservation covenant, additional days open to the public or free admission days,

or an enhanced visitor experience such as increased accessibility or site interpretation.

A third grant condition and requirement relates to eligible costs which include but are not limited to architectural or engineering plans, reports, renderings, or drawings, construction costs including labor and materials, project or finance management, and costs associated with the preservation easement such as title searches or title insurance policies.

So the application evaluation criteria include the things listed here on the screen.

So priority will be given to applications that include improvements to historic properties, projects that have a strong argument and metrics to support how the project will assist with increased visitation due to the semi-quincentennial of the US, products that will have a measurable impact on their local and regional communities, projects that support buildings that are open to the public on a regular basis without an appointment, and projects that can support an overmatch and projects that are shovel ready.

and that's all I have for you.

Good evening, Tom Harbour and Public Works.

So prior to the VA 250 being announced, we'd already been working on a way to highlight the Harrison House and the area around it to the public.

We had done that with work with Fraser Associates, who had previously worked with other city management to get to this point.

So we took their ideas and we expanded them a little bit to just look on

How we can improve access to the outside of the structure knowing that eventually we would want to get inside the structure to highlight the history behind it and the different aspects of the basement area with the spring and the different components.

So what we came up with with the Fraser Associates was the plan that's on the screen with everything that starts with demolition.

So we would demolish the hall house which is highlighted in the hatched area.

Except they found black people in the house.

That's a presentation club.

So with the demolition of the hall house, it opens up the space to add in a terrace area that would then make the ability to see all sides of the Harrison house from both Bruce Street and the terrace area.

So on the bottom of the screen is Bruce Street.

Main Street is over to the right.

This terrace area would connect Bruce to the area so you could see Harrison House around to the back and then ultimately connect to Denton Park, which is where it says concept plan that is Denton Park.

It would be an open space.

It would provide connections to the existing structure that would remain of the Yale Button area and then provide open to the facade of the Harrison House as well as plan for the future with access to the basement eventually.

So with the VA250 grant, we're able to not only do this project that we were planning to get underway, it allows us to leverage those funds to open up ability to get inside of the structure.

Right now, we know we want to renovate it and we know that we can request $3 million additional funds to be taken to the project.

That'll be the hard work we do in September and October to figure out exactly what is that scope if we're allowed to move forward with the grant and if we're approved to the pre-application process.

then we'll make the formal proposal and then we'll have to really start running and get moving quickly because these grant funds have to be expended by June of 2026 to hit that 250-year mark, which is extremely fast for us in public works.

This is just a 3D rendering of what the terrace would look like.

You're looking at it from the church in Bruce Street.

You can see all the terraced area, the plantings, the fencing and the connection back to Denton Park.

I think it really opens up the Harrison House

and then with the additional funds the grant provide, allow us to get into the Harrison House, both the main floor and the basement and really highlight the history of the structure and all the different things that Dr. Nasser is able to find and allow her to find even more through the grant process.

So where we at funding?

As Andy mentioned, we had a million dollars of city funds committed, 500,000 or 50% from city funds.

and the other 50% of the community foundation, which now holds the Weaver Foundation funds.

The tears was estimated around a million dollars of design and construction.

Knowing that we can leverage that to get an additional three million, we would propose to place all of that within the additional restoration efforts that will be better tuned out if we're able to submit an application to get that ready.

Timeline, as Luke mentioned in his presentation,

So hopefully we'll hit the submit button tomorrow morning.

Can I ask a quick question?

Sure.

So it says it has to be a one-third match?

Correct.

Can I hear from Dr. Nass?

Oh, she's waving her hand anyway.

Come on up here, Dr. Nass.

I want to talk to you.

I mean, I love y'all.

I've been itching since you made us all pass out when you told us that.

So for the folks at home, while I wasn't being quibbed, we did find African-American evidence and that wasn't me being as smooth.

Me and Andy were sitting there like ready to pass out when you told us that the first time.

We did.

And just to back up for a moment, this does not involve the demolition of the Hall House.

I want to be very clear with that.

It's okay.

It's a small part of the Hall House that will be going, but the bulk of the Hall House will still be there.

But in terms of trying to understand the African-American presence at that house, which we believe to be very strong, it looks like it was the Hall family who, as part of their household, had enslaved members.

And so the Hall family bought the Thomas Hare...

I call it the Thomas Harrison model home because it was built to his specifications.

Thomas Harrison was very specific as to what he wanted Harrisonburg to look like because of course he gave the land for the town itself and we've measured that building time and time again and it matches the specs that are in his will and so that was a pretty powerful piece of evidence but what we

We're trying to figure out is it looks like the house was going back and forth between being used as an inn that was associated with the Valley Turnpike and then purchased by the Hall House and used as an extension of their household.

And those are the enslaved families.

Those are the enslaved families.

So looking at approximately

Post 1805, something like that.

Yeah.

Do you think that there's a connection to the plantations that were in the Northeast neighborhood area?

I think that we've got a really interesting story in that there were multiple African American communities in Harrisonburg.

And so when you look at

The families who were affiliated with the downtown area who were enslaved, many of them were emancipated by 1820 or so as the Methodist Church began to take over.

Exactly.

But it looks like the earliest establishment of a free black community in Harrisonburg may have been along High Street.

going over toward, what is now High Street, going over toward West Market Street.

And that's where it looks like there.

And the Shendo Valley Black Heritage Foundation published a book of research that was done on that community.

So I'll give you this last name.

So would you see if you can pull on the thread of Bishop?

Edgar Amos Love, so he, as much as I love him, he's one of the founders of Opportunity, and he's a Harrisonburg native, right?

So he's a huge figure for African-American and Americans are general, but his father would have been of that generation.

I'll just give you that name if you can pull in.

This has been a treat.

We could talk all night about this, but you've got business to take care of.

But yes, there are many, many avenues that we can take with this project.

And I think what it will do is provide us with a vision of Harrisonburg as a community that was multicultural from its earliest days.

And so as we look at that story today,

With that, no actions needed.

We just wanted to give you an update on what we're doing.

And that will submit the grant.

We'll let you know how it goes.

I really love the way it looks.

You're right.

Tearing out that one section of the whole house really highlights the house itself.

It shows the front.

It shows it as a discreet, separate building.

and all the more reason to have it as a museum piece really for telling the story that's so rich.

Thank you.

Thank you all.

Thanks.

Good evening.

Thanks for the opportunity to present.

Happy birthday.

I didn't get this much love at home.

I know, right?

It's not the way parents are, though.

When they found out the cake was happening tomorrow, they were like, well, I guess we'll save it for tomorrow, then.

We have a tradition in my house that it's happy birthday month.

And so my oldest daughter and I were always like, happy birthday month to you.

Anyway, thanks for this opportunity again to present to you.

What I want us to talk about tonight, do I do this?

OK, there we go.

Just present some preliminary data that we're going to have.

And that is just going to get, as time progresses, it's going to get a lot more robust.

And so this will give us a good track line and give you all a good track line of what's happening right now as it relates to those that have housing insecurity and food insecurity.

and Harrisonburg.

So just to reiterate, our mission is to build a safe, loving community of restoration and hope for all, especially those facing homelessness and other adverse experiences.

And I tell people that we're in the business of hope.

When life gets hard, when things happen that are uncontrollable, they come to us asking and wanting hope that tomorrow or later today will be different than what they're experiencing right now.

and so looking at some of our recent data going from the last part of June then all of July and then the first part of August.

These are unique individuals that OCP is coming to OCP.

So the last part of June we had 115 unique individuals that were either a part of our community center coming in for mills, coming in for laundry services or showers

or many of the other things that we have at the community center or part of our case management and housing program.

In July we had 158 so that number increased and then in the first two weeks here in August we're sitting at 138 so I imagine once the data is completed all the way through August 30th that that number will definitely be closer to 158.

and Total, and those are just per month, right?

So we count a person that if they come in on Monday of August, August 1st, and they come back August 15th, we only count that person once.

But Total, if you took those two months period from June 14th through August 16th, we have seen 238 unique individuals, Total.

And so what that breaks down into, and I'm sorry, that's smaller than I imagined, but what that breaks down into when we look at race, 79% in the last little bit of June is white, 79 individuals are white, Hispanic, Latino and Latinx, eight, African American, 28, and then Alaska Native one.

And we're just gonna kind of roll through these.

In July, those numbers grew a little bit.

As you can see, 100 were claimed Caucasian, one native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander, Hispanic, 17, African American, 45, and then Alaska Native, and then in race in August, the first two weeks of August, 80.

Mina, Middle East, North Africa, four, Hispanic, 17, Black, 34, and Asian American are sitting at it.

I gotta ask you, North Africa, not a part of Africa?

It's not, yeah, I hear you, but it's not how they classify it.

White people don't, Black people don't.

Yeah, white people telling everybody what's a part of Africa and what's not a part of Africa.

I just want to make sure we all say that out loud.

I'll say preach on that one.

How that breaks down into gender is, and all of this is self-identification across the board, so we take their word for it.

In June is 74 men and 41 women.

In July we had 101 men and 57 women.

In August we were sitting in this, you know, the first two weeks, 80 men and 58 women.

The one of the big things for us is, y'all are familiar with the point in time survey that the COC does, Western Virginia COC does normally in I believe in January and so it just measures that one night of the year.

We took many of the questions that are on that survey to be a part of our daily intake And so now instead of having just a one night Survey of data now we are continually gauging every day where people are sleeping

that come and interact with us.

So in June, 41 people are living somewhere with a rental apartment or a rental house here in Harrisonburg.

77 are what we would say is chronically homeless or homeless living somewhere that is not

considered to be an appropriate shelter.

And then there were six in an emergency shelter which is right currently our only emergency shelter at Salvation Army.

In July, those numbers increased.

We had two people that were in Rockingham County and with that we really tried to ask them if they do identify Rockingham County.

Harrisonburg went up to 108 and 9 people in the emergency shelter

and then in August, Harrisonburg, Reynolds House and apartment was sitting at 34 Harrisonburg Cartent Street was sitting at 92 the first two weeks there and then we had a larger number at the emergency shelter with 20 and so with all of that and this is a stat that I think in conjunction

with other organizations

And so for us, any given night in June, the last two weeks in June, there were 77 people that were interacting with us at OCP that were sleeping outside somewhere, inside Harrisonburg city limits.

In July, that was 108.

And then the first two weeks in August, we were sitting at 92 people sleeping inside Harrisonburg somewhere that is considered

Sheldon Deanna, Joe

Yeah, and these these numbers are just unsheltered right and so but if we went back to Here I'll just do it on my mind, but if we went back to Even August of sheltered We were sitting at 92 20.

That's a hundred 112 and 34 146 ish 140

A lot of times, many of those are coming from public housing.

So so they do come for all of that The times I've been to OCP I was always fascinated with how far away people had traveled to be here and so of the

77 to 150.

How many of them are from Harrisonburg?

Because it seems like usually it was like, this is me being anecdotal, like 50% or sub 50%.

That was just my experience.

I'm just literally anecdotally handshaking meeting people, you know, at a couple dinners or at a couple lunches or when I use the mechanic across the street.

So when I'm over there, I'll walk across the street.

So that's how I, and then the summer of 2020, we were having some issues and so I kept driving around during the daytime.

We were having like, I forgot what exactly the issue was.

I just knew I needed to go over there.

And so I went over there every, every so often.

Anyway, so I have found that to never change.

Has that changed?

Does anyone have any data on, on that?

Cause I've had residents ask me about the folks we serve.

And so we want to

Yeah, with us, with this data, we're only keeping up where you slept last night.

Like I was saying, other organizations here in town, and I can't speak for all of them by any means, there are other organizations that do ask the question, where was your last residence, official residence?

And then that's when you get the data that this person, last official residence was maybe in Stanton, and then they came up to here.

So that's what I'm saying.

With the combination of other data that other organizations collect, these two sets of numbers together gives a city a whole lot more comprehensive picture about where people are coming from, how many people are sleeping on a nightly basis here in Harrisonburg.

We know where they're sleeping, but yeah.

I'm looking at two pages of organizations that we help We have more people on these pages than you do people Everybody just literally took a person, you know, figuratively speaking Yeah, and again, yeah, and this is just people that are coming to OCP And so there's there's a percentage of the population that doesn't even know OCP exists and there's a percentage of the population that

that wouldn't

We exist.

The invitation is to anybody.

And so when I say that there's a group of people that don't know us, I have conversations on a weekly basis with residents of Harrisonburg that don't even have a clue that OCP has been in existence for 24 years or even what we do.

All I have to say is, hey, we're the blue building.

And it's like, oh.

You know, because it's not really aesthetically pleasing.

But at the same time, we also know that there are populations, or I should say we're growing in our knowledge, that there are populations that we know there are homeless people or unhoused people that are not connected to the homeless services, all of the services in us, and so we are trying to find

The Navigation Center is going to help with that for sure.

It's going to be a big boost for this community.

But also, how can we all in our own organizational strengths reach all the different populations that are out there that are experiencing some type of housing insecurity or food insecurity?

Our hours.

Monday.

Mondays and Wednesdays are 9 in the morning to 2 p.m.

Then Tuesdays, if people choose to stay for a work day, it's our work day.

So if people choose to stay for a work day, then it's 9 a.m.

to about 1.30.

Thursdays, it's 9 a.m.

to 11.30 a.m.

because we shut the community center down so that we can prepare for Friday lunch restaurant.

on Friday.

A.m.

A.m.

9 a.m.

Yes.

Then you have the lunch.

And then we have the Friday lunch after that.

Is there, I've been fighting this for years about trying to get y'all to extend your hours.

Funding.

Funding right now.

Councilman Jones, I will speak to what you were just asking about who actually is from the city.

I was on the board for OCP right up until Mack got hired and so

Prior to that, it's been quite a few days at OCP and people did seem to matriculate down from Stanton or from Roanoke and when I talk with folks, the most common answer I would get in terms of like why have you come here is because our services were so much better.

And so that was one of the reasons that people just seemed to end up here in Harrisonburg.

Looking for a better place.

And that is one of the unique things of also being on the part of the COC is at our last general meeting, one of the big things that was queried to everybody that was attending was, you know, what is your biggest need?

And obviously people are going to say housing.

for sure, but a homeless service center, a shelter.

Many of the communities don't have something that like our new navigation center, they don't have that.

They only have like a rescue mission or something like the Salvation Army and so even the communities that

that the Western Virginia Continuum of Care is from here to Winchester over to Front Royal and down.

The amount of beds that people can access and the services, Harrisonburg easily has more and has more wraparound network services.

to really help people get back on their feet or remove some of the barriers to help them become more stable.

They do not.

They have the rescue mission up there and then they have a thermal shelter that's open obviously during the thermal season.

And also one of the things here, you know, we hear it all the time, you know, especially when the navigation center opens up, you know, this mad rush of people are going to come down here.

I'm going to tell you they're already here.

They're already here.

Yeah, y'all know that.

You know, I took a phone call just last week of an aunt in Stanton.

There's a misnomer that you build navigation centers and support services and you attract people.

Anecdotally, they'll say, yeah, this is why I came.

But typically they also come because they're unsafe and can't get to certain domestic violence.

These are the other pieces.

that come out, you know, they're not gonna tell Counseling Robinson or me that, you know, like, right off the bat, you know what I mean?

They'll say, oh no, you got better services, because I got Norfolk at Roanoke, is what I used to hear.

And so it's interesting, you heard more of the West stuff, I heard some East stuff in North Carolina, so I was just always shocked.

But I think most of the public assumes, I mean, you look at Mission, that was at Mission Avenue in San Francisco,

That was a great idea 30 years ago or 20 years ago, but you look at it now and it is like literally frightening and it's the antithesis of the help.

So I think what you just said will be critical to make sure Harrisonburg doesn't look like a San Francisco or an LA where you never want your good to be evil spoken of.

So we don't want the work we're doing.

to create a different problem and I don't think that's going to be the case because of leadership like that and what you just said.

And just to, I don't want to hog the time by any means, but just to go into the National Alliance to End Homelessness,

Rd.

and one of the things that I do appreciate about Harrisonburg is we understand that this is a social complex problem.

And so all the many conversations that have been a part of affordable housing and that kind of stuff.

you know continue need to need to continue to happen for sure are important but we also have to look at the the mental health toll that homelessness takes on people I mean we see it we see it day in and day out the longer they stay homeless their mental health deteriorates

and so on.

Our context and thinking about as we address people who have housing insecurity and food insecurity is there is definitely a mental health side of this.

But also economic mobility is a portion of this too.

I was talking to somebody today

He reminded me I forgot to drop off a baby stroller at where his partner is renting.

And he goes, Matt, I can't do it.

I can't take it to me because I have to go to my second job.

Nasser Alsaadun

There's the panacea.

It's going to cure everything.

One thing that's important is what you said.

Unhealth doesn't mean unemployed, which I think we know is that income isn't sufficient often, right?

So they're working.

The income is not sufficient.

That's that second piece of income and housing affordability is because of the wages that some of our clients are earning.

It's food, it's clothes and those types of things, the necessities that they're going to prioritize over rent.

and those types of things and so they're in a situation because of the limited income that they have.

They're having to make what am I going to pay for today or this month and what am I not going to pay for?

And it's huge, right?

And nobody, those are situations that our people are experiencing and living in day in and day out and those are impossible.

and

I'm hoping that number of unhoused individuals, like was last month at 108, goes down to 20 or 30.

And then we can navigate that from going forward.

Questions?

Any other questions?

I don't want to hog the time.

We can talk about this all night, trust me.

And tomorrow.

Good evening.

I'm Liz Webb, Housing Coordinator.

Happy birthday.

I am here to continue our conversation

about using city-owned land for affordable housing.

I'm going to start with a strategy, review, and then we'll talk about central NF and then I'll go over a proposed basis for a more formal process for evaluating city land.

And first, because, you know, for better or for worse, affordable housing can have different definitions.

Right now, for this conversation, I'm not talking about just general affordability related to any one person or subsidized housing like Section 8.

Right now, we're talking about housing that is expressly made available at less than what the market rate would be, where that discount in the rent or sale, it might be tied to serving specific populations like by income,

but it doesn't necessarily tie into income-based assistance with those costs.

Okay.

Why affordable housing on City on Land?

Just refresher.

There's only so many acres of Harrisonburg and suitable development sites are limited commodity.

And so to help expand the housing supply, the city can consider just making public land available for residential growth.

The city can also condition the land disposition and set terms based on identified housing objectives and goals like accessibility and affordability, even density.

And cities can make public land available at below market rates and that investment can help developers leverage other funds and contribute to the affordability

of the rent and sale prices down the line by reducing the project's upfront costs.

And by reducing or eliminating the costs of the land, that could be the difference between a project that pencils out and one that doesn't.

Using public land for affordable housing and mixed income housing has been done by other localities.

So we've got a lot of good examples that we've been able to look at for

Best Practices and Advice.

As far as which land we're talking about for affordable housing, this is limited to what I'm very loosely referring to as surplus, so parcels that are undeveloped, underutilized vacant, effectively not needed or being used.

And then specifically, land that could make its way into that process and evaluation could include

parcels identified in the housing study, remnants from projects such as roads or schools or other sites where determination is based on a closer look because the city's plans and needs change over time.

Whether a piece of land is effectively surplus is a question where the answer can sometimes change.

And as we know, most land that the city owns is not surplus.

everything from this building to where the new fire station is going and even lots that seem empty may have passive use like related to stormwater management for example.

And there could be sites where public ownership has the effect of restricting the use or development because the site might not be safe for that path.

But for city on land that really is surplus, evaluating the potential for affordable housing means looking at the site's value, the property details, and the potential for its use.

And those all seem to impact and are impacted by one another.

what you would pay for the land, what it costs to develop it, whether there's the demand for the product or project that you would do.

Those are the questions the developer would consider when evaluating a site's feasibility.

And just remember, affordable housing feasibility is different than market rate projects because the income that you'd make back by sale or rent is going to be lower than what you would on the market.

So it's a different kind of math that you're doing.

Basically, you need more investment up front.

Anyway, in any case, identifying the constraints has the effect of narrowing down the site's potential to scenarios that are realistic and what those opportunities are.

And I have this here to say, just because you can do something anywhere doesn't mean that you should.

and so you might be able to pull something off but the costs you know the cost doesn't work what you would have to spend to make it safe or whether there's a market for your product or there's just a use that fits a lot better even though I'm really sad about the uphouse because you know if I could stay there we would all be okay with that and so we start learning about a site as you know

We got a Virginia Housing Community Impact Grant to study Central Avenue and Neff Avenue.

We had a whole Site Plan Engineering Report feasibility study from our consultant.

That's the big, robust version that was fitting for these large parcels.

To the extent that we're looking at possible smaller remnants under different scenarios, we could consider looking

with a more limited review, just really scoping out the basics.

But so we looked at, through the study that we got, all of this with Central and Neff, and got a real sense of what's possible based on those constraints, and what's realistic, and came up with some next steps.

So just to refresh, our analysis of Neff Avenue,

It is suitable for residential use.

There are some needs and some challenges.

But basically, the big things that we saw, you know, it's got a big elevation difference and also the census data sort of makes it a good fit for

to be competitive for low-income housing tax credits.

So that is this site through these constraints, sort of telling us what it's a good fit for as far as housing and affordable housing.

And I know we looked at this picture a while ago, but it is, and this is just a rendering, this is like an early from the consultant rendering, this isn't what a developer might actually do, but it's a version that they

That was the drawing.

No, it's a really hypothetical study of the math, but it's basically a project in that location with that build with tax credits could work.

Things change over time, and that's part of where to the extent that you all recommend that we go forward with

with what's here, that would be part of like a, just like the drawing was, you know, very rough.

Someone would do more in-depth analysis.

So the first thing, right now, the undeveloped part and three-in-crem true playground are all part of the same parcel.

So the first step is subdividing it into two so that the playground is a separate parcel and getting an updated assessment.

for just the part where the development would be.

And then the recommendation that we have for you is that staff would draft a request for proposal using the Public Private Education Facilities and Infrastructure Act, PPEA, which our lawyers have reviewed.

And it is a tested approach that offers the city some flexibility

and we would envision in this that the city would play a close visible role but the project efforts would be developer led.

Now in this RFP we would make use and sort of lean into the goals and criteria that we created as part of the ARPA Housing Fund Project in terms of prioritizing experience, capacity, effective use of resources and so on.

and we would spell out some must-haves, some needs like in terms of affordability and also leave a lot of things open to see what we've received.

We spoke to other localities and one of the challenges especially with doing something like this for the first time is putting out an RFP and nobody responding.

So we want to keep it open and simple enough that we can get some responses in, leave things open-ended but be clear on how we would evaluate it and that would include

things like measuring, you know, the difference between a request where somebody, you know, for the land at full price versus a discounted price versus different contributions and expectations and things tied to the affordability in the term.

So we have a lot of that from the samples that we've looked at but also a lot of the basis of that in terms of

With the PPA, would that still leave it open to grants for DHCD or for reaching a housing, potentially with the city as a partner?

That leaves that open.

Because the prep work is often very expensive and the analysis works.

And there would be, you know, there would be some, in this type of RFP, we would spell out kind of more clearly our expectations for a developer to pursue tax credits with, you know, the contingency scenario of what would happen, you know, should someone be selected and they not receive tax credits.

Those are all the kinds of details that we would, you know, go into, but the expectation would be that a developer with the experience and skill to build, what's it called, to stack, to bring in all the different, yeah, the capital stack, to bring in all the different funding sources to make the affordable housing work.

We know that, or you know, everything that we've studied about the site tells us that it can be done here and it can be done well, so we want to see

you know, what kinds of scenarios we could receive.

And so, let's see, with your support for this, we can immediately start drafting an RFP with the goal of issuing something in the fall.

I had a really big coffee earlier.

It's okay.

This is a real reaction.

Yeah, that one.

Okay.

There we go.

So just briefly want to talk about Central Avenue.

Generally, to say that even with the needs to connect it to water, it's less constrained.

There's more, there's broader opportunity.

It would probably cost less per unit to develop than enough just based on it being flat and some other factors.

And so, in other words, it's a really good opportunity for affordable housing.

And we really, you know, it's really important, I think, that we really look at maximizing its potential.

So we're continuing to research a range of options, including whether it's feasible to do a community land trust model.

And I would like to come back for further discussion

The people in Richmond are constantly trying to tweak and adjust

keep the formula so that the best projects are received credits.

One of the challenges that you might have heard in other ways is that sometimes our census data doesn't tell us exactly who we are the way we, you know, might somewhere else.

So actually the Neff Avenue site, one of the benefits that it has, it's like, it's like hot, wait,

It's a low rate of family poverty, but a high rate of overall poverty, which to us tells us it's an area with student housing.

But the way that that's calculated for tax credits, it gets points there in a way that the central site right now just misses by a little.

So I don't know.

I mean, I think, you know, any site with a good plant could be competitive for tax credits.

But we know that Neff would be a good case for that.

And we think central could be.

But, you know, if we're looking to do something, you know, really impactful, different, you know, that's why we're considering all options.

It would be great if we could find something, you know, home ownership related.

That's also a long term investment in affordability that's like really truly sustainable.

I remember when we were developing the R8,

and Dany Fleming.

So, I mean, this is what I'm hoping to get to with the research, I think

because it is public land, the idea of can we do something here that isn't going to happen elsewhere otherwise?

Right.

You know, we know that there are other, you know, we've got, so what is that, what is the version of that?

And so that's like one of the reasons why looking into community land trust makes sense because we have examples of first time home buyers accessing affordable home ownership.

Last night at CSPDC, they talked about land trust as part of the overall housing report that they're still finalizing.

Yeah, yeah, no.

And that's part of some of some of the strategies that we would consider tie into, you know, where would there be capacity to do this or that?

You know, and so some of the recommendations in the regional study

Well, there could be, I mean, if something like that, you know, has an umbrella that's related to the region, you know, that's, that's something that isn't like a do it, you know, totally do it yourself.

I think this speaks to

Yeah.

No, that's true.

Yeah.

Let's see.

When it comes to evaluating other sites, the first step is establishing that the land is actually impact surplus and then assessing the site's specific details and analyzing the value and potential uses.

So like a site that's suitable for residential use is suitable for affordable housing if the math pencils out.

and sometimes what makes the affordability work is how the land disposition plays out.

Would it only work at a discount?

Is the discount what makes it work in conjunction with other factors?

There can be different considerations there.

What we would never want to do is make land available for affordable housing

in such a way that sets someone up for failure because the cost of remediating certain concerns with sight are too high.

You saw that picture of that house on the landslide or whatever the hill.

If you're building a multi-million dollar mansion, you can put those things in and those protections.

Well, I was actually surprised that the bullet says on Central Avenue, no wetland or flood zone issues because there is that, I don't know if it's part, it's not Black's run right there.

The whole tail end of the back part there wouldn't be housing there.

That part would be the stormwater.

And that's another benefit of that site.

Whereas Neff, there's going to be costs stormwater might have to be underground based on the parcel at Central.

It's sort of a natural floods, you know, stormwater management, whereas an F is really steep and you'd have to build it in.

and so if we have sites that we think would be feasible for housing and affordable housing, we would want to be really clear about how we might offer any discounts for that affordability.

You know, really often, you know, land sales are just based on what is the best value you can get in terms of price, but when you're looking at

you know, the public benefit of affordable housing, it's a different metric.

And so to get the clearest picture of what could be done on any public land, we would want to make any such parcels available and advertise publicly as far as what scenarios we would be willing to entertain.

And I think we're in a good starting place with that.

our policy and planning documents support using public land this way, broadly speaking.

There's established legal authority to support a range of land disposition scenarios.

And while ultimately we might, the goal is to have a more detailed written process for site evaluation analysis.

This is a basic framework, which really gives us just some guardrails for how to consider any parcels that we're looking at.

and as we move forward with Central and Neff and as we potentially identify other parcels to consider, we can spell out details and expectations in any listing or request for proposal.

That's, that's really, that's what I got.

It's been kind of occurring to me lately, generally,

Public funding has strings attached, almost by definition.

Like, we'll help fund this provided you make it affordable, in this case.

That's because we're making policy decisions of what we're willing to fund and why it's not market-based.

And it's important that it's a clear metric.

Sure.

Of course we want you to do more work for it.

I mean, I think we want to know

about both, because they keep coming up, especially Central.

Central always comes up.

I didn't see if, and make sure that there isn't, well, anyway, I'll say that offline, never mind.

We can, yeah, we can move on Neff.

We can start drafting that proposal and getting that out there this fall.

I guess Neff is telling me what it wants and Central is telling me I'm open.

Telling you what it wants, how?

Because of the, you know, because of the Hill,

It's steep and so, you know, you're gonna have to either build retaining walls or you're gonna have to build multi-family that's sort of built into the hillside and building multi-family into the hillside maximizes one thing where the ability to access li-tech and be competitive in that points category is another reason.

The sites just, you know, we can, I mean, you know, with the study there was one of the things that they said we could do

Central, you know, it just didn't, it didn't come up with one, it didn't point to one thing and so we really, you know, it really could work for so many things that we want to have a really good recommendation and not just the housing, you know, that, you know, we want to really evaluate all the options and bring you the best.

or explain why we think a certain range of choices is the best.

I think the Central is such a perfect spot right next to the school.

What you're saying, Liz, people have been saying that I can say for ten years or longer than that about the Central Avenue.

And these are for-profit individuals.

I do think, you know, what can, because it's public land, what can we do that really, like, what's something that wouldn't happen?

Yeah, I appreciate that, and I think, you know,

How you reduce the margins of the costs is what we're trying to get at here, right?

This is land that we own And so that reduces potentially a cost for a developer in a pretty significant one that way So I think I like the idea of putting it out to see what we get in response to that I know working on the housing For what's coming up in the General Assembly next year both between universities and the Virginia Municipal League

really the piece of legislation that we've really focused in on a lot is a program that isn't funded currently but that is to give grants to do site development so cities can do that and there is legislation there for that but it's just not funded as they often do and so but I think within the cities that we work with that's become a focus to see if we can make sure that becomes a priority and then

Land Like This, then it can become a really prime candidate for making it even more site ready for someone to come in, much more attractive to do work on now, whether that happens or not.

We don't know if that's something we're certainly working on with the General Assembly.

But yeah, I think trying to make this more and more palatable.

I mean, we know it's not going to happen without public support and public dollars.

We don't have a housing trust fund funded yet.

So we can't dip into that.

Maybe there's some future point that will be something we can do.

And I think it's a good, you know, it's a goal we have and a vision we have for doing that.

You're good to move forward.

No, you might as well stay up there because you got the next one.

And again, if I could just tack on one thing that's sort of related, one of the nice things about the work that Liz has been doing.

She's been working with me and members of the Public Works Department, identifying a lot of the little parcels the city owns.

And most of those we obtained as a result of road projects or in one case, building the high school that

We are not suitable for housing.

In many cases, they are very small, non-conforming lots, can't be built on, and we really ought to go ahead and try to move those on to most cases, the neighboring property owners, get them back on the tax roll.

Now, there are some, for instance, the property just south of the new high school, like the El Panos restaurant, we bought that.

We used it as a staging ground and now we need to sell it out.

The high school is finished.

A couple of other lots like that, but most of the lots we need to deal with again are the smallest livers that nothing can be done with.

Maybe could join it to a neighboring property and they could do something.

So we'd like to bring back a proposal to council probably the next meeting.

And it will probably be something along the lines for the bigger parcels with some values.

Again, not the ones that can be used for housing.

Let's pick a date, 120 days from now, work with Mr. Schell to really stir up some interest and make sure

It's well publicized until folks give us your best offer and counsel can then look at those.

I'm here to put before you a request from the Housing Authority to convert a $1.3 million ARPA Housing Development Fund Award which was awarded to be a 3% interest only 30-year loan into a grant.

The staff recommendation is to maintain the award as a grant.

I can walk through this memo.

SAF recommends maintaining the award as a loan and I can walk through the memo with you and go over some of the details of it.

So just as a refresher on the process that we went through in December of 2022, Council approved appropriating $2 million of ARPA for Housing Development Fund.

and the goal of the fund was to support preservation and new construction of affordable housing including home ownership.

The city issued a notice of funding opportunity or NOFO last August and we accepted applications through last October 6th and that NOFO spelled out the priorities and the evaluation criteria for its applicants which included overall project feasibility and readiness, contribution to affordable housing,

effective use and leveraging of funds, consistency with identified housing needs.

And the fund used a competitive process to review and score applications based on the details that we received from applicants, including the type of funding structure the applicants sought.

We did have that as a question on our application saying, you know, these are probably going to be alone unless you want something different.

And so we did receive that information.

We

We received 10 applications.

They were evaluated by committee that included me, the director of community development, the deputy city attorney, grants and programs analyst, and two external people, one from another locality and one from a bank.

And the evaluation committee last December 2023 recommended two awards, $700,000 grant to Habitat for Humanity

for 11 homeownership units at Souter Street and a $1.3 million loan to the Housing Authority for 16 rental units that would comprise Commerce Village Annex.

The Housing Authority had applied for $1.5 million loan, structured with interest-only payments for 30 years of 3% interest.

And then as we were drafting the funding agreement,

Michael Wong, Executive Director of the Housing Authority, communicated that he would like the city to consider changing the loan to a grant with the funds available up front, saying that that would reduce the project costs and reduce the administrative burden related to reporting and interest tracking.

The agreement that was drafted kept to the original terms at which time

Mr. Wong responded that the Housing Authority's ability to support interest payments was limited and asked if the city would negotiate.

And so here we are.

Because we went through a competitive loan process, allowing the Housing Authority to revise the requested funding structure

after the competitive process could appear unfair to other applicants who are not given an opportunity for reconsideration.

It could potentially change our role depending on, you know, from, you know, an entity that's awarding funds to more of a partner and let's make sure this gets built.

and then if we convert to a grant those proceeds the loan which would have been $39,000 per year that was planned to be used for housing activities and serve as seed money for an ongoing housing fund really just to create the mechanism for a future expansion of a housing trust fund converting to a grant would remove that opportunity and

Other investors in the project like Virginia's Department of Housing and Community Development are not converting their loans into grants.

Under the ARPA rules, we're entitled to make a loan as we did here.

I just want to make sure I heard the last part who kind of stammered a little bit.

Ultimately, you found that it's a loan.

So, I mean, we had 10 applicants and we're not, you know, we based our decision, you know, we gave one grant, one loan, we based it on what information we were making the decision with at the time.

If we updated

the one, you know, one, I don't know if we went, you know, if we went back and looked at all of them again based on updated circumstances, how many are still moving forward, whether that would change things or would change our decision.

That's all really hypothetical.

But, um, yeah.

What is the, go ahead.

If you said this, I apologize, but the calls of the time frames are dealing with now.

No, I mean, there would certainly be a time issue with all funds need to be allocated by the end of this year.

And so we've been talking about different ways, different backup plans and different contingencies, but it would starting

Thank you for letting me speak and thank you for the opportunity to listen to the request to modify the offer funds terms.

You know, it's kind of appropriate that I'm speaking here after the other presentations by our community place because, as you know, Commerce Village 2 is really focused on some of those most vulnerable in our community.

We have eight units designated for veterans and the other eight units for those needing supportive services.

And we have successfully received funding from the federal level.

from San Juanal, Central Cane from Congressional Direct Spending.

We successfully received funding on a state level.

We received $1 million in Department of Housing and Community Development funds, Housing Trust funds, in addition to $100,000 in highly innovative energy efficiency funds.

and then with the 1.3 million from the city really shows that partnership and the recognition on that national, state and local level of the need to be able to address affordable housing specifically for this targeted population.

So I do look at this project as a true partnership between the city and the housing authority.

The housing authority has also donated the land to make it affordable

has contributed funds to support it and deferred its developers fee to be able to make sure that the project runs properly.

But just like every affordable housing project, it's challenged by pricing, cost, and the ability to raise rents to be able to address increased cost.

I related to City Attorney Brown and Ms.

Webb when I met with them.

that when we initially submitted the proposal for the offer funds with the higher amount, we did not anticipate having a gap issue.

But with the reduced funding we see from the city, other funding sources we had displayed funding from the House of Milwaukee MCSP, which did not come through.

it reduced the gap and then we also elected to go for Earthcraft certified silver which had a higher design cost associated to the project.

So it brings out to about a half million dollar what we anticipate gap fund issue that we're going to have to fix within the program.

And when we ran the analysis, paying the $37,000, $39,000 to the city, it put us about $20,000 to the negative in regard to our operating.

And when an affordable housing project runs in a negative in operation.

What does it do?

It reduces staffing to be able to cover it or reduce the salaries associated with that.

It defers maintenance expenses and reduces the number of support services available for the residents there.

It's not a good way to be able to start a brand new project.

and so that's really the primary reason that I'm coming to you today to request that the funds be a grant versus a loan and also if the funds can be provided upfront and will have a significant reduction in regard to the construction interest associated with the project.

So this would allow us to be able to backstop that gap financing, about half a million dollars, and then be able to keep the project moving forward.

We are almost in a position to be able to start construction.

We are finalizing the environmental review and properly boundary line adjustment.

And once that's completed, we are able to

assigned the commitment documents and installed the site book and the building permits will be released.

So again, we're very excited about the partnership and working with you.

Without the relationship that we have, we will not be able to move this project forward.

We will be very challenged.

You know, we still want to figure out how to make the project work.

We did apply for

in this past summer, spring back to the Department of Housing and Community Development and also to another grant funding source but was unsuccessful.

So we would probably have to borrow the funds and maybe cut expenses like I talked about to be able to make the project work.

One thing you said about if it were a grant, the funding would be up front.

Even if it were a loan, a city attorney, wouldn't we give them the loan, the cost, the funding up front?

Good, yes.

That's what I figured.

You know, sewing 16 units, total amount of operating income is about $190,000 annually.

You know, $39,000 paying the debt service in the city is almost, you know, 20%, 25%, and then paying a similar amount to the Department of Housing and Community Development.

That's where it puts us at the limit in regard to the amount of debt service that we do.

And then if we have to go out and do bank-qualified taxism financing to do the SCAP financing, that's where we get into the negative.

We've always

Unfortunately, just because of the timing of the agreements, we had signed off on the DHCD funding back in January.

So we have limited ability to negotiate with that.

And as you know, banks are very difficult to negotiate rates or terms with in regard to that.

This is a very much a community project too.

It's a local architect.

Blue Line is a local builder that is scheduled to construct it by Nasser Alsaadun and then we're using the local bank, Bank of James for the construction of finance.

So you know it's about three and a half million dollar project total.

So thank you for that help.

I just want to make sure we're clear, because you came to us and you accepted the loan because you thought that would make the project go forward.

And so it will still go forward.

It will just be more challenging for you financially, but instead you... We, yeah.

I don't think we're giving, we're not giving any different amount, it's we're not going to be accepting.

I know, it won't be coming back.

Yeah, and you wouldn't be getting the entire 1.3 million back.

It's just the inputs that you would be seeing.

Yeah, annually.

Yeah, so I guess I'm at a loss.

I'm trying to understand why we would even consider it.

I mean, I'm talking to council now, but I'm confused as to why we would even consider it.

Because we really, I mean, we invested a lot of time and money in how we even spent or allocated any dollars.

I guess I'm at a time I'm trying to figure out well if everybody could come here and we redo every decision we've ever made if we're gonna look you know if we're gonna play backwards if you're gonna play hindsight 2020 now that would be saying okay chief you know we should have got you two engines instead of one for our engine

You know, we should get you... I mean, we can do that with every single item.

I mean, looking in this building, I'm like, Andy, man, we should have got TVs.

I've said that to him like 10 times.

I never said, Andy, we really need to go buy TVs, right?

That's just one of those things you look at after you've done it and you live in the future.

Because we didn't know everybody would be really get addicted to these big screens, you know, 10, 12 years ago when we bought them.

Well, and one of my favorite things about this is the interest payments coming back and funding the housing trust.

That's right.

So it keeps recycling the affordable housing funds.

We've been looking for ways to fund that and I really like the loan model for just that reason.

That's why I was confused.

So, you know, I feel conflicted in a lot of ways.

You know, I'm excited about the Commerce Village project itself.

I think this Commerce Village has been extremely successful.

I know this will be, you know, likely just as successful when it's a real need for us.

So the project itself, I think, is really both needed and I have kind of ensured, as much assurance on this being successful.

And I think any other project I've seen, just because given that the Commerce Village history there,

The other thing that, you know, I just thought about this, but Senator Warner also gave money for this.

If this doesn't happen, that money goes away.

So we did get, you know, money for that.

Now, it doesn't mean we have to change the terms for where to get that.

can be done at the same way.

What I don't like doing, and what's given me the most concern, is that the staff did put together a process to go through, an enormous amount of time and effort went into that.

And so while we have the authority to make a change, overriding that to me is something I'm, you know,

We had a child care application process that went through and Norm's amount of time went into that, putting that together.

And so the idea that we would override that work, it doesn't sit well and I think it's, you know, set something to staff if we do that.

Which, again, for me leaves me conflicted here on what to do.

I don't want to jeopardize the project or jeopardize the success of this project.

I think the loan amount that we were anticipating getting was part of the calculation that awarded the grant or awarded the loan in the first place.

And we're not losing money through this, but this is something we're anticipating getting over a period of time.

I do wonder if there are

some other ways in between a loan and a grant that is still workable.

We're still pretty new in getting this information to change.

I don't know what's, I know you say it's feasible to do, or potentially feasible to do as a grant.

I don't see it going away, but I also wonder if there are other ways we can make this work

So for example, you know, you mentioned that, you know, 39,000 I think was the, and at this point you're kind of 20,000 operationally in the negative, right?

So there's some amount, 19,000, then

that could be used by that calculation, right?

So the 39,000 loan could be maybe 19,000 for some period of time.

Potential of it would be, again, I think the opera request within the grant would talk about 2% interest.

We put in 3% because that was what we felt like we could comfortably handle, but with 3% it was only.

That's what we had proposed.

The City has proposed, but I think if we could agree to a 1% interest payment, that will allow us to at least break even with the project, which would be very critical.

But you knew the terms when you went to Tibet, so to come, did you just think that, oh, I can

That's how it works

Correct.

And that's why you go through negotiations like this.

And, you know, this is a, you know, this is a, you know, it has four different funding stacks on it, the capital stacks.

So it's a challenge to align up all these different processes within itself to make it work.

So it is one of the things, you know, this was in August of last year.

We hadn't went out on bid yet in regard to the time of project.

So there is a funding gap.

But I don't want to sound insensitive because

Well, I mean, I've been trying to work with Michael, yeah.

No, I understand that.

Right, so how do I make this before?

So, you know, I want to try... How can we continue to get this loan?

For us, the issue is how do we continue getting that $39,000?

No, we don't have an issue.

No, it's not all that.

But we don't have an issue.

I know we don't.

Okay.

I know.

I just... Can I finish?

Yes, sir.

Thank you.

The goal is how we can, you know, get that...

Housing Trust Fund, for example, he says, get that $39,000 generated in there.

Is there a way, and I'm asking Attorney Brown, for a deferment for some period of time?

Senator, that was mentioned in there.

So we don't eliminate this as a loan, right?

So we keep it as a loan, but the period when that might start, and I don't know if that has any impact

on the upfront costs, Michael, that you're talking about incurring.

I heard him say expenses, and if we ran to take that... I heard him say expenses and staffing, and so if that's his choice because they miscalculated or penciled it wrong,

that shouldn't become our burden.

I mean, we literally just finished talking about other ways and means in which we want to invest.

So we can't turn around and then become lenient on the very first person that owes us.

I mean, you can't, we're never going to get anywhere if we, you know, there isn't, the answer is, I think the answer is no, because he said he can build a project

It's just maybe uncomfortable for him.

But look at all the other uncomfortable projects that were worked.

Every project is uncomfortable.

So I guess I'm just trying to figure out what's unique about him being uncomfortable versus the things we want to do with Liz versus the things we want to do with the private developers.

There's no difference if we care about housing people.

So his difference is no difference than the money

that I want to use to figure out how I can help the people from not coming from Norfolk and Roanoke to go to OCP so then we don't have to build a navigation center.

It's a non-stop cycle.

So we could like back up and really staff or really source one element or like give favoritism to one element, but then it just hinders the rest of the dominoes.

They're never going to fall, in my opinion.

And it seems like we run into this with HRHA.

But maybe it can be lenient in those cases.

But would we do that to Liz's point earlier?

You would have to open up the books for everybody else just to even feel like we were being fair.

So to me, it's almost a non-starter because you're not even giving the other people that applied the same opportunity.

Well, I would suggest that a private developer isn't the same as working with HR.

No, I meant the people on her list.

No, I meant the other people on her list.

Right, so that we're in agreement with, right, that there was a process that we went through.

Opening that process up again, we really can do.

We're up to a December timeline, likely.

And I want to see this go through.

I agree that I'm not looking to change the process.

I'm just wondering if there are ways that don't limit what we're going to get, but maybe some of the time when we might get it through a deferment, for example, still allow this to move forward.

That $39,000 still comes to us, but I understand the challenge.

When you're building fully affordable housing, the margins just are such that we don't have other folks coming to us.

You know, saying we were building a form of housing we've had, you know, habitat for humanity, right?

Who does that?

And they put in a model, which is a lot of sweat equity there.

Well, we actually don't know because we don't know who the other other people were that they, um, fair enough, right?

That applied.

We don't know who else is on that list.

There might have been somebody else on that list that we could have gave to.

And that wouldn't be and wouldn't be standing back here putting the pressure back on us.

Right.

That's what I mean.

We live in this world that we don't know at that point because we we backed it.

But there's no contingency in giving the money where if it doesn't work out, you can come back and say, let's change the terms after.

If that were the case, maybe others would have applied with a maybe I have a project that I might get enough stackable funding to make happen.

I'm just really concerned with the fairness of what we're being asked to do.

I understand that you're in a crunch.

I understand that that amount of money could possibly reduce staffing.

There's really a ton of options.

Staff and services is really the only options you have or all capture improvements in regard to reducing operating expenses.

You really don't have too much other choice other than that.

to be able to do that.

And it is a natural, it's not a full market project.

It's the nature of these types of affordable housing.

Well, you know, you do have to go back.

I don't know any affordable housing project deal.

Does not have to go back and have to negotiate and consider.

It's just part of that process.

When we initially put in our grant application, the normal debt ratio is like 1.4.

in regards to debt service and ratio.

And we were at 1.2, recognizing that we would never get to 1.4 because it's an affordable housing project.

And those margins don't exist.

We aren't able to raise rents.

You know, I could raise the rents and address this gap financing really easy.

I can't do that in this situation.

Rent's unlimited.

You know, so that's the reason I'm not trying to place a book on you.

I appreciate the partnership that we have, but it's a consideration of how we can make sure that this project runs smoothly and that we can all be proud of it as a resource to the community.

So I want to get a response from Attorney Brown on two things.

One, a deferment, for example, or the idea of we continue as it is, but at some future point, we decide we make some adjustment.

You know, people do forgive loans at points or they do change the terms at some later point if that were to get to that point.

At this point, we're not entirely sure whether the fund, at the end of the day, what the available funds are or not.

And again, just to be clear, this is a forgivable loan.

In other words, they'll pay interest annually.

in the 30 years the debt goes away.

So we don't get the principal back, it's the interest.

And I was going to ask Michael, Michael, I can't remember, and maybe I never knew, but your private bank financing, what's the term of that?

15 years.

Yeah, we can go in for those 15 years for bank qualified taxes and financing.

Yeah, and that could be an option, you know, if we could pay after the 15 years, we could have the ability to pay, you know, and defer for 15 years and then pay.

That would be an option.

But I want to be responsive to Councilman Fleming's question, which is, yes, we have options.

of course it's up to council completely.

What council wants to do, if you want to do something different than a 3% loan, you do have some options, including reducing the interest rate for the first 15 years or something like that and then increase it.

Well I noticed that.

In the recommendation, city staff recommends maintaining the existing funding award.

Alternatives are converted to a grant.

I was interested in option B, direct city staff to negotiate new terms such as that kind of delay to maintain a loan but with a lower interest rate and or reduced term and or delayed deferred payment schedule.

Now, I'm not interested in reducing the rate.

I like that $39,000 coming to us.

I was thinking, would it make enough difference to defer the first payment for a year or two while the upfront costs are being absorbed in the building of it?

I think there's been negotiations already going on correctly.

Well, no, it's been fine between the lawyers.

I would say we've been back and forth to get some general information to sort of broadly consider.

I think one of the challenges of getting into the space that isn't the application is how do we know, you know,

Where's the right space?

And so, you know, we have that information and Michael's provided answers to the questions that we've had, but then we have that information and not knowing how to consider, you know, how do we take that information in?

And how is the decision made in terms of what is or isn't feasible?

And I think that's where we get into questions of, okay, going the route that is the application process that we did,

We know that this is what was the request and this is what we're doing.

And anything else, I think we are committed to finding what works in a way that is a negotiation that is outside of the scope of what we had planned to do as our role.

So we have the information.

It's really a question for account.

Yeah, I think Liz.

So in essence, I mean, whether we kept it as a loan now

and so we keep it as a loan and then continue negotiating terms or we delay decision, continue negotiating and then return will make a whole lot of difference really.

We can still negotiate after at this point, right?

So we can say we keep the terms as they are and if there's any reason, if the project hits financing concerns,

discussion can open back up.

You're able to open that up.

Well, yeah, it's what you're asking.

We go forward as is.

And of course, yeah, I mean, we will have given them the money and we'll be working.

But I assume at some point, Mr. Walker, come back and say, I really meant it, but it's not working.

And will you lower the interest rate or will you defer interest payments, something like that?

Where have you ever had a loan?

Good God.

I'm trying to figure out where y'all want to bury me.

It must be real different being black and white.

I promise you mentally I can't even comprehend the conversation we're having right now.

What is it?

I don't agree with Laura very often, right off the bat, but when we agree off the bat, I think we just need to go ahead and vote.

And she thought, what I thought, is we need our housing trust fund money.

That's the answer.

I don't even understand how we are getting to a different term because we wouldn't even treat the tenants that live in there with this type of exception.

No, we have no... If I can preach for just a second, if you ain't gonna treat the people that live there like this, my goodness.

I mean, we're not deferred.

I tell you what, I could see deferring it if he's going to pay a higher interest at the end, right?

So if we ballooned it out, that would mathematically make sense to me.

But like we just, I flipped to those pages earlier when we were looking at community contributions and you know, different organizations and social services that we help.

It's like we tell every one of those executive directors, we know the work you're doing is great.

We appreciate you, the folks that work for the state that we chip in to help with the county.

We appreciate what social services does, but at the end of the day,

We can't ever fully fund them.

And because humans always need community and health and mental health services, we're going to always be at a deficit.

Because even if you fund it at 100%, somebody's going to have a baby and somebody's going to have a problem.

So even if you get it all the way to full, somebody's having a baby at Centera and they're going to live in Harrisonburg or Rockingham County and we're going to have to deal with it.

So at some point, there's a law of just

And so not just expenses, expenses to be able to manage the output.

The expenses is really coming from the financing

from the Capitol Stat.

So then can't we just not do the project?

And I understand that.

I truly understand that.

There's not a guarantee you're going to get what you asked for.

So you asked for 1.5, you got 1.3.

You can't base a project off of assuming that you're going to get what you asked for.

We all know that, right?

That's what we did.

That's what you did.

That's what we always did.

But you didn't get 2 million from us and you lost another

funding, but then it feels like we're supposed to take the burden of that.

That is not our burden.

He gets to 1.3, we get our $39,000 that we think we're gonna get and that's it.

He's cost us opportunity, so to then turn around and make it even easier.

And he's cost us all, because someone else could have a shovel in the ground.

Maybe, I mean, there was a vetting process for this and I get that part of how they got this vetting was this $39,000 and so I agree with that part of this.

You know, the idea that, you know, four-in-a-four to a housing project, if you don't get the money, you figure it out, that actually doesn't happen really.

If the money doesn't come, the public dollars, then the project's stopped and of course that's what's happening in Harrisonburg.

We've seen a number of projects that have looked for light tech funding or look for additional funding.

Because people want to still make profit.

When he says the word expenses, that's just profit.

So you either got to shrink it or the project is just going to have to cost more money.

It is profit because he's paying it out as he just literally said staffing.

So why did you say staff?

Because you have project management, you have supportive services you pay for, you have maintenance that you have to pay for.

All of that is staff that will have to be impacted because those are the only things.

So that's not profit.

Those are requirements of the project to be successful.

You'll have property managers,

Then you can't certify people.

You can't manage a property.

You don't have maintenance staff.

You don't have supportive services.

You can't keep the people in.

Well, so this is supportive housing, I guess is one of the things.

This is housing that comes with, you know, specifically staff to support the residents who are there to be able to maintain that.

Often on their understanding that

maintaining their own housing apart from this doesn't happen so that those funds or what happens just like with Commerce Village 1 right now.

So I wouldn't view that as a profit that seems to be kind of the required expense to make the you know Commerce successful.

I don't like the idea again of changing Malone to a grant.

I agree with that.

I understand that.

That's not fair.

No, not even close.

That's not fair.

It's not fair, Dany.

No, but why is that?

Because, Dany, that's not fair.

And I know that you're attached to this.

I do.

Well, I'm not attached to this.

I'm actually trying to figure out how to make it work.

I mean, it seems like you are.

Well, I'm trying to figure out how to make it work.

But if you're trying to make it work with Michael, then you have to try to make it work with anybody else that comes up here.

And that's the problem.

That's what we're saying is not fair.

That's the fairness.

Because if we do this,

Not at all.

And I agree, so I'm not suggesting changing the term of the 3%.

And if it doesn't work to find another way to do that that doesn't prevent us from getting that 3% loan, I get that.

And I'm supportive of keeping it that.

I'm just wondering if there's a way to do that, whether it's a deferment or changing that.

And if that's not workable, that's fine.

I'm just wondering if there's a way to do that, if there's not.

I also don't like the idea of overriding staff who've put in the time to develop this process, so I agree with that part of it.

The thing that I put on the table potentially is

Could we defer the first payments of the interest for a year or two, not 15 years?

You know, an affordable housing project, everything makes a difference.

I mean, that's what we do.

We try to put every, you know, every level of time together so that we can make it work.

So it definitely would help.

And, you know, anything that can reduce the burden will be helpful to the project.

You know, you don't get

Like we're trying to derail this project and we don't do what you want.

That's not fair.

That's not fair.

We gave you $1.3 million as a loan with what you requested.

And so now if we stand to that, now all of a sudden, oh, City Council is not trying to work with us.

City Council is not for affordable housing.

City Council is not, that's not fair.

That is not fair because that's not what's happening here.

What's happening here is we're saying

that we're trying to stay with what we said for others.

Because if we do this for you, I guarantee you, whoever those eight or nine that didn't get picked can come back and be like, oh, so now y'all changing again.

That's not fair.

And our staff did all this work.

We put the trust in them to handle this.

So don't make it sound like we're not for this project.

We're against affordable housing.

You're not going to do that.

You're not going to do that.

because that is not what's happening here.

We're trying to make a fiscal decision of a loan that you agreed upon.

And it's interesting to me an interest only loan as in you don't have to pay the loan itself back.

So it's more like a grant with payments over time.

The tax payers have already won $23 million.

If we want to see these things happening in our community, we trusted him when he came to us and said he wanted a loan.

We didn't go to him and say, you should take a loan out.

He came to us.

So if it's short, I mean, I'm just trying to figure out where in government.

I got one for you.

For all the kids that don't have daycare or for school care or after school care, we're not like going to their parents' houses and going.

All right, you ain't got nowhere to stay.

We gon' find you one.

Right?

They're just short.

For every business owner, they're just short.

So I'm trying to figure out what the difference is in this equation with Michael versus everybody else who has to either be accountable or not accountable.

Like, I mean, that's just kinda it.

It's not, this isn't that, I'm lost as to how this is a burden for counsel to discuss at this level.

Because to me, honestly,

Because I was confused, this seems administrative.

I appreciate that, since it's money, I saw you turn your head real fast, Andy, I know why I told you.

Since it's money, it's in front of us.

But, to me, this is administrative.

Like, we literally hired her to tell him no in this scenario.

That's why she did that, because professionally, there's no one that's not going to tell him no in that scenario.

Again, I'm just at the basic equity piece of it, right?

And is it fair?

Like, if you can't even get off of that page, I don't even know how we get into possibly deferring payments and things of that nature, because we got to be able to stand on the fact that we treated everybody the same.

I tell you what, if you didn't, you wasted a lot of money on me going all these equity conferences and talking about inclusion and diversity and all this other stuff.

We can't even pass the paper bag test on are you are you treating Bob the same way you treat Jane as the same way you treat Billy?

I mean if we're not doing that, I mean what we got to stand on.

So while I but here's the thing I appreciate your passion of trying to make the project work.

So I hear you on that part, but I guess I'm equally as passionate about

We made a decision on the dais.

You gotta move forward on that decision because there are tons of people operating their daily lives based off the decisions that we made and they move forward.

I'm not opposed to doing that.

I'm opposed to changing that.

I do think we have a process, we have to have some integrity to a process we set up and we do have other folks who applied for this.

Okay, so is there any more?

You know, whether that is a diversion from our intent or not, whether

You know, there was some deferral of two years, five years or not, would be the same as telling the other applicants that, you know, the rules change afterwards.

I mean, I guess that can be the case.

I hear what you're saying.

Now, you know, we still would have the ability at some point later on if the fund for the supportive housing side of this of working with HRIJ and trying to figure out

You know, how it is that that gets supported in some way and it may not be that the city does that, but you know, I understand that.

I don't want to see this project because I know how Commerce 1 worked and I know there's experience in making that work.

So I know that can work, which doesn't mean that these funds are the same as those funds.

So, you know, under the model of how that works exists in HRHA.

and I want to make sure that works as well, certainly.

I remember Michelle Obama saying we helped like produce homelessness in Harrisonburg.

It was a great moment, right?

After Commerce Village 1.

So I get it.

But I guess we've got to live beyond even those moments of

I guess it shouldn't necessarily be a victory for us because we know we're fighting something that's not going to go away.

So the goal is to constantly reduce it, right?

So it's just like energy consumption.

No matter what you go with, you're still going to consume energy somehow, right?

So the goal is to figure out how to do that in the most sustainable way, right?

In a conservative way.

It's the same thing with the housing piece and it's the same thing with the money.

But like I said, I just want you to know, I hear you're bashing on it, I just think that this is his deal, this is his terms.

Yeah, I was just trying to gauge whether there is some desire to have even a slight negotiation or just accept it as it is with the possibility to revisit later if necessary.

Well, that'd be a council decision whether they, you know, you know,

Go to the next meeting and see if there's something palatable in the middle.

Again, it still does change the terms.

I get that, right?

And whether that's viewed as an unfair part of the process or not, it may not change how much money comes in to the trust fund.

Maybe when it comes in at some point is what that might mean.

Well, just to be clear, I don't want to defer it.

I'm just wondering where there might be some room that could make the project more feasible.

and I don't know if that's enough to make a difference.

I'm not I'm not sure why we I'm not sure why we're doing this.

I'm really not.

I don't know.

Go ahead.

I don't I don't know.

It seems to me like if we have a set of guidelines that say how we're going to do something, I do not want the public, the constituents

the people, the loose faith in us, loose trust in our ability to do what we do it's like we can't say this is what we're gonna do and then oh but you can come back and then ask to change the terms it's just it's just to me it's just a real it just seems to me it's like hanging right there on the edge of something that's to me that's kind of funky that would years ago make me say

There's some back room conversations going on.

So maybe I'm looking through a different lens, but I don't want to have my credibility be questioned.

like that I'm putting my face in the process.

I'm sitting up here voting and putting my face in the process that you can keep coming back asking me to change because you can get your checkbook, the balance out.

No one's at my house saying keep coming to the bank saying oh you can't make your payment, you better rob Peter to pay Paul or something, make it work.

but we don't get those chances to keep coming back and there's just something that just borders right there on the edge.

It's just, it's not fair.

It's just, it's not fair.

I don't even know any other way to say it.

We have said fairness, we have said integrity.

It is not fair.

And so, I understand, like Councilman Jones said, I understand a passion.

I understand all that.

We all sit here and talk about we need affordable housing.

We have said that.

But you cannot come up here, and this is what makes me frustrated, is if we don't do this, then there's going to be some type of talk out there that this council didn't want to support affordable housing.

Councilwoman Robinson, Mayor Reed, Councilman Jones, doesn't support affordable housing.

That's not what this is about.

So please get that in the back real clear.

Thank you.

That's not what this is about.

Because if that's the fact, we need to open this back up so the other people... There you go, Mayor.

That literally is the only way it would be fair, but here's the problem with that.

We're only opening it because he asked, not one of us, so it's a non-starter, which is why I said it should be administrative.

We shouldn't even be talking about it, in my opinion, except

it's a financial change so then Andy wants us to see it and the lawyer wants us to see it but the fact of the matter is if none of us put this in motion then there was no even better if none of us put it in motion and none of our staff put it in motion and direct staff in the ELT and even their direct employee which is Liz if she says no then this never gets to us you understand what I'm saying like if this wasn't I guess

Quite honestly, I feel like if it didn't say affordable housing, we would have figured out a way to not get it on the agenda.

Let me just be real plain.

But because it says affordable housing, it made the agenda.

Because Andy don't want to hear our mouth if it didn't make the agenda.

And he made the decision on the back door.

But the fact that a matter is, I hate talking about you while you're sitting here and you're like that.

But the fact that I'm not disrespecting you.

But the fact that a matter is, we've been doing the things we said we would do.

and the people that are at home, keep it score.

Like the mayor said, I'm gonna take this and run the wrong direction.

Because, and I think it should be, I think the majority of taxpayers at home should be

Happy that we're able to defend the decisions that we make.

I mean, we didn't go buy any daycares, even though I asked to actually buy one.

We didn't go buy any.

We said, we all agreed and said, OK, we're going to create daycare providers.

We're going to educate them.

We'll create a fund for them.

We didn't waver when they asked us.

to come outside of the window where you could join in on a daycare class, the fund and additional pulling funding from somewhere else.

We have that's what I'm saying.

We have precedent.

I could keep doing you finishing my sentence.

So this is year two.

So this is what I'm saying.

So we have been working on this stuff the whole time you guys have been here and they're proud to be in here.

So we've been working on stuff for four years.

together and separately.

So it's just hard for me to stomach that.

I mean, we have been on panels and nationally and statewide and applauded for how we handled ARPA.

Like, we can never feel bad for that.

People have looked at us as a great example.

The mayor speaks on them all the time.

And I think all four of us have in some way too.

So I just, I don't know, I just feel like ARPA is when we nailed and got right.

Not I. I think 58,000 people should be able to sleep easy at night that we did the right thing with that money.

And if someone didn't like the process, it was all public.

It was all open.

Like you just didn't miss anything.

And even so much so that we then did presentations on what we agreed on.

You remember that?

So I'm ready to call the question.

And I think, Madam Mayor, unless Council wants to agree to change terms, you don't really need to take an action.

This is the commitment, if you will, and unless that's going to change, I think that stays in place unless Council wants to change it.

Yes.

I agree that our staff have done this work and it's important that we override something.

We have to take very seriously.

I'm glad you opened that door.

I'll say this then.

If we make mistakes, if we see that we've done something wrong, if we've created some injustice, obviously, we need to open those things back up and look at those things again.

If I could just say one thing, I do want to apologize if I created heartburn in regard to bringing this request forward.

As I stated at the very beginning, I really appreciate the partnership that we have with you in regard to building Commerce Village too.

It's a real opportunity for our community.

I did, when we did the grant application, I did put in our grant notice that, you know, we would like to negotiate the interest in our proposal.

And then when I initially met with Liz, Ms.

Webb, I did also ask, is there an opportunity to negotiate?

And that's when she said yes, and we could be able to move forward.

I do apologize.

I did not want to put you all on a difficult position.

I know that you all

You understand about housing, the needs of affordable housing, but it's, you know, these types of projects are really challenging.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Council, some, some council members have asked me to prepare an amendment to our zoning ordinance, which would authorize the city to accept cash proppers as a part of the conditional zoning.

and I have done so.

Attached to the agenda is a proposed amendment to Harrisonburg City Code section 10-3-123 and that is the section that allows us to do conditional zoning.

So in our, our zoning is when someone proffers something it's an additional requirement or restriction on the parcel that becomes part of the zoning ordinance.

Section 10-3-123 specifically says the city will not accept cash proffers, even though we are authorized under state law to do so.

So again, what I've done is eliminate the language prohibiting cash proffers.

And I also included an election to use the procedure sent forth in Virginia Code Section 15.2-2303

I could sit here the next hour or so and try to explain conditional zoning and I'm not being funny when I say this, we have in Virginia old conditional zoning, new conditional zoning, and new slash old conditional zoning.

Three different state code sections that grant various localities the authority to have.

Conditional Zoning, and generally it's based on population.

If you've grown more than 10% the last 10 years, you can do one or the other.

But we're authorized under code section 15.2-2298.

But a few years ago, they tucked a little sentence in there and says, and if you qualify for this section, you can also elect to use 2303.

which is what we call the old conditional zoning.

You can read through those two code sections and try to figure out what is the difference.

I'm not sure at the end of the day there's a practical difference, but 2303 seems to have a little bit more flexibility as far as how tightly the cash proffer has to be tied to the project that is generating the need.

and again we'll get into all this down the road if after planning commission looks at this and brings it back to you we'll have a much more in detail discussion.

I say there's probably not a lot of difference because there's another section of the Virginia Code 15.2-2303.4 which applies to conditional rezoning to any residential rezoning in Virginia and that section again we have to follow

sets out some pretty strict standards as to when we can accept cash proffers.

I included the memo.

Again, we'll talk about it in detail at a different time.

So what this is, is a way to start the process, to start the discussion.

And this would be referred to Planning Commission to study as all zoning amendments have to be referred to Planning Commission.

And then they will look at it and bring a recommendation back to city council.

which you can then act on and, as always, recheck the recommendation or accept it or change it.

I think the thing about striking this is, well, potentially is that it doesn't require us to do anything for accepting cash proffers.

It just makes the opportunity available there, which is available for about half of Virginia, like currently.

And that half mostly accepts cash proffers, but

It doesn't require that we do accept it.

That's right.

And again, we'll get into more details at a later date.

But if council does decide to accept cash proffers on any given project, there is the analysis that has to be performed.

But we'll talk about that later.

Alright, second.

Any more discussion?

Council Member Jones.

Vice Mayor Dent.

Aye.

Council Member Robinson.

Aye.

Mayor Reed.

Alright, Amy is you.

Good thing I'm also not filling in for the city manager tonight.

Let me get real back and forth.

Computer to fight.

Amy Snyder, Deputy City Manager.

I am very excited to be bringing forward to you all tonight a resolution to I hope officially name the Navigation Center as the Navigation Center and to officially put behind us the use of the name Homeless Services Center.

which has served us well, but as I said from I think the project's initiation was a placeholder until we found the right name.

So with that, we did hold a public comment period.

We received three comments.

One was in support of the name, one was in opposition to the name requesting some refinements to it, and the third asked that we name it after Rivendell.

from Lord of the Rings, which I thought was very thoughtful.

I want to say it was a very thoughtful because of the place of peace and serenity that is Rivendell.

Or the Navi.

Madam Mayor, I move to

Adopt the resolution to name the city facility at 1111 North Main Street, Harrisonburg, the navigation center.

Any discussion?

Well, I remember your comments that that's an acceptable or a commonly used term among similar facilities.

So it has some understanding that that's what it's about.

That was my key question.

Sure.

It is a common name on the West Coast.

It's actually in California State Code.

It's defined the Navigation Center, and if you read the definition of a Navigation Center in California State Code, it is the definition of what we're working to create in partnership with open doors and so many other agencies here.

It's used in Oregon, it's used in Washington State, it's used in Colorado.

There's a whole list of states where

The Navigation Centers is the trend of what these types of facilities with these intensive case management services are called, departing from calling it a homeless shelter.

And so I think that I don't know that it's used commonly on the East Coast, but I like Harrisonburg being a trendsetter.

Well, and I also like the

I heard the general trend of destigmatizing homelessness and making it clear that it's available to the whole community.

Absolutely.

Now I have heard this term elsewhere in town, so we weren't going to do the first presentation from the Blue Ridge Free Clinic.

They have a navigation center, they abbreviate it to the NAV Center.

So maybe it'll become parlance like that and just everyday use.

Does Mr. Parks know that he has to have logos and t-shirts ready for us to wear at NLC by November?

So as long as that's a part of this vote that we all have a nice little t-shirt to show off at our friends.

Look, I could say be a bail by October, which is what I'm thinking, but

Mr. Parks and I can certainly get brainstorming.

I know that Nate is here.

Nate is here.

He can attest to conversations that we've had out on the site with Erin Roney, our Public Works deputy director who's been right hand on this project about all of our ideas.

Mr. Roney is very eager to have some urban wood compasses and other things navigation related to use.

So we're eager to see the facility opened to be able to embrace the name.

Order signage that includes this name and get it out there.

There is a community meeting this Saturday that we invite you all to.

Open Doors is coordinating it.

Thank you again, Nate.

It's at the Lucy Sim Center.

I believe it starts at 9.45 a.m.

with networking and then 11.15 a.m.

and if I might be misquoting it,

but it'll be a community meeting for people to come learn about the operations of the facility.

Not only the operations that OpenDoors is providing but the additional services that they've been working to coordinate in the facility.

Both for individuals who are unhoused but for the whole community to the point of this is a navigation center.

This is a place where anyone can go to receive assistance accessing services and be pointed in the right direction if the answer is not there.

Any other questions for me?

We did.

Who's second?

Council, before you this evening is a supplemental appropriation for the Blacks Run Stream Restoration Project that has been underway now for months on the south end of town.

Public Works is currently in the construction phase of the restoration project and this request will appropriate an additional $200,000 to this project in order to complete it.

Funding will be provided by the available fund balance in the Stormwater Fund.

Need a motion?

Madam Mayor, I move that we approve the supplemental appropriation for the Blacks Run Stream Restoration Project as presented by City Manager Banks.

Second.

We'll call please, Amy.

Council Member Fleming.

Aye.

Council Member Jones.

Aye.

Vice Mayor Dent.

Aye.

Council Member Robinson.

Aye.

Mayor Reed.

Aye.

Thank you Madam Mayor.

And then Council will have

The first one, 9A, consider reallocation of funds in the ECC Capital Projects Fund.

The ECC had a CIP project to replace a crucial HVAC unit on the fifth floor of the ECC.

because they maintain a 24-7 operation in redundancy as well as a very technology intensive operation.

This HVAC needs to be replaced and it came in an additional $50,000 over and we did not budget a contingency.

So, Ms.

$50,000.

You mistakenly said $50,000.

Oh, $50?

Yeah, that would not be... I'd be back for another reallocation next week.

Which you've learned, we don't do those.

You learned that tonight.

For $50,000.

No.

The Parks and Rec Department is currently in the planning stages of replacing the restrooms at Morrison Park.

Funding in the amount of $300,000 was provided in the FY25 budget for this project.

However, the cost being handed over to the Parks and Rec Department to complete this is now an additional $20,000.

So we are requesting a reallocation from a previously closed project into the Morrison Park restroom project.

Any questions?

Well, this is interesting.

Moving it from the jail to the parks.

Okay, that's good.

Madam Mayor, I move that we approve the reallocation of funds and the general capital project funds in the amount of $20,000 for the Morrison Park Restrooms as presented by City Manager Banks.

Second.

Roll call, please, Aiden.

Council Member Fleming.

Aye.

Council Member Jones.

Vice Mayor Dent.

Aye.

Council Member Robinson.

Aye.

Mayor Reed.

We are now going to other matters, comments from the public, limited to five minutes.

On matters not on the regular agenda, please state your name and address.

Good night, Council.

Pat Hayden, Harrisonburg City resident.

It has recently come to my attention that apparently there is a great deal of displeasure in the 9-1-1 Center.

I don't know any of the details.

I just know what I am reading on Facebook and it's my understanding that the city and county jointly

maintain the center, but the city manages it.

And I just want to call it to your all's attention if you're not aware.

And I think that it needs to be looked into because it seems to be quite serious, especially with all the students coming back, adding, I'm sure a great deal more calling to 911, just knowing what goes on with the students sometimes.

But I just wanted to call your attention to it and

Hope that you will look into it and hope that we will soon hear what it is that's going to be done to resolve the issues.

Thank you.

Anyone else?

Seeing none in person.

Thank you.

Vice Mayor?

Oh, okay.

My big news is, as of last night, I am now on the CSPDC Executive Committee and as secretary, but they said, don't worry, you don't have to take notes.

Their staff already is.

And in other news, the various things we've several of us have been doing went to the

Chamber of Commerce University Presidents Panel that was very illuminating and worthwhile to see that community collaboration in action.

Dany and I, the council member Fleming, and I met with a representative from the Levitt Foundation, Amber Withers, who works for the Levitt Foundation in Los Angeles.

She was thrilled and impressed with how lively Harrisonburg is and how the Levitt Amp concert series has really brought out a lot of community energy and she couldn't speak for it or you know predict she says that after our three-year grant we can apply to renew it so well she can't say one way or the other it's clear that we have a lot of momentum in that so that's good to hear

and then there was the block party in the burg and who fly about that I'll pass that on to the mayor.

Mental health and substance abuse issues can affect anyone.

When they do getting help should be simple.

Instead, individuals face challenges associated with language, culture, specialization, insurance, availability,

Proximity.

80% of the time people give up when they're looking for help for mental health and substance abuse.

However, I had a meeting today with Care Solace and Care Solace partners with cities to serve as a navigation hub for residents and departments to facilitate, assess, and to assess mental and behavioral health services.

So through a phone number or QR code or URL,

anyone, any resident would be able to access care, services, services anytime and anywhere.

So an example would be at no initial cost to the resident outside of our commitment to this company would be a resident would have 24 seven, 365 days of access to be able to with over 200 languages available.

So finally a service that provides enough linguistic diversity for our city.

They're able to assess needs, help them understand insurance, find matches, book appointments, follow up with care, find community providers, help to build in infrastructure for our first responders, care solace knits together social services, community services, and mental health services in the city and more broadly in the community.

So we'd be able to probably still work with your Rockin' Ham counties or

the other health systems outside of Centera.

This approach to well-being of the resident is holistic and delivered within a framework of values.

And so I'll be talking to each of you.

I think I know I mentioned it to Councilman Fleming and Mayor Reed briefly.

But this game highly recommended by someone I met when we first got elected.

In fact, I introduced them to the mayor.

I'll show you a picture of them and you'll remember.

but the mayor knows him too.

And I'm not sure if Dany's met Louie.

I think he did.

But anyway, long story short, the service that this could provide, I think would give the level of access that I feel like the five of us in our constituents all agree that we need to make sure that the right folks are going to police for help.

The right folks are getting EMS help.

the right folks are getting whatever auxiliary help that's out there because we've all seen the devastation that can come when people are reaching out for help or don't know how to reach out for help and it's interpreted as violence or acting out or ultimately just misinterpreted and so therefore it's misdiagnosed and I think that this I think working with care solace could help reduce and maybe possibly eliminate

any of that confusion that can sometimes fall on your police departments, your fire departments and your city staff and ultimately your city attorney.

So I like to keep them protected as well as help and protect every single resident that we've got out there.

And I think this is a big, easy, inexpensive tool to do that.

But of course, if it looks like it solves all these problems and it seems affordable, there's probably something in there we need to discover.

And so

City Manager was on a call with me and we'll dig into it more.

But we want to make sure we didn't miss anything.

But as of first blush, it looks really good.

And it again meets the needs that, well, honestly, even the four of you may have talked about even more than me.

But I know for me, the gap has always been to make sure we protect the resident and our police department.

when it comes to some of these mental health issues that arise because the burden falls on both and we got to figure out a way to do that and I think this fixes that so and we had a great family vacation and I've had deaths in my family and sick people and all types of things so if you didn't see me up here that's stuff that's going on but I appreciate