City Council Meeting   1/10/2024

It's been a couple of years since he told me he was going to make me one.

He's given him a hard time.

I love him.

It was something I delegated to the deputy committee.

Like I think literally we were hard on her.

All our Tuesday City Council meeting to order Tuesday, January 9th, 2024.

Mayor Reed.

President.

City Manager Banks.

Here.

City Attorney Brown.

Here.

Vice Mayor Dent.

Here.

Council Member Fleming.

Here.

Council Member Robinson.

Present.

Chief Warner.

Here.

May our community be well, may we be at peace May our nation be well, may we be at peace May all nations be well, may we be at peace

Okay, we're going to start off with a special recognition, and I'm actually going to step down for this recognition because this is my sorority, but Councilman Jones will read a proclamation honoring Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Incorporated, our founder's dead.

Can you wait till I get down there?

And for Sora, since I'm coming down, Councilman Fleming bought an elephant to put in my place while I come down, so I'm going to tag out.

He knows something.

Proclamation honoring the devastating dynamic divas of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Incorporated.

So a proclamation honoring Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Incorporated founders day.

Whereas Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Incorporated

was founded 111 years ago on January 13, 1913 by 22 young women studying at Howard University.

They sought to create an organization rooted in sisterhood, scholarship, service, and social action.

And whereas the founders of Delta Sigma Theta envisioned an organization committed to sisterhood, scholarship, service, and addressing the social issues of the time,

Since its founding, Delta Sigma Theta has become one of the preeminent service-based sororities with more than 300,000 initiated members and over 1,000 chartered chapters worldwide.

And whereas as a sisterhood composed primarily of black college-educated women, the sorority seriously considers the issues impacting the black community and boldly

confronts the challenges of African Americans and hence all Americans.

And whereas over the years a wide range of programs addressing education, health, international development, and the strengthening of African American families have evolved, the major programs of the sorority are based upon the five-point programmatic thrust economic development, educational development,

International Awareness and Involvement, Physical and Mental Health and Political Awareness and Involvement.

And whereas there are over 160 collegiate and alumni chapters located in North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, and Bermuda.

And whereas the Charlottesville Alumni Chapter of Iota Alpha Chapter of James Madison Universities serve the Harrisonburg community.

Both chapters have made a positive impact on the city of Harrisonburg for over 50 years.

Now, therefore be it resolved that I, Christopher B. Jones, Councilman of the great city of Harrisonburg, do hereby honor and applaud the members of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Incorporated for 111 years of service.

and all their accomplishments in the city of Harrisonburg, Virginia.

and we urge you, all citizens, to join me in thanking the sorority for all it has contributed to the communities both locally, nationally and globally and in wishing them continued success in the future.

Signed this day, this ninth day of January under the hand of our illustrious Mayor, Mayor Deanna R. Reed, a test did by our clerk, Pamela Omer.

I gotta get something good enough to send my son to edit.

Excellent.

Introduce yourself.

to the council members and to our sorority sister, Mayor Deanna Reed.

I am in Sofa Chanda and on behalf of the Charlottesville Alumni Chapter of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority and our president.

Dr. Nikita Wade, I would like to express that we are so honored and thankful for being recognized at the City of Harrisonburg as we approach our 111th year of existence as an organization.

Our local alumni chapter will be celebrating 55 years of service in June of this year and our local collegiate chapter recently celebrated over 50 years of service as well, Iota Alpha at James Madison University.

Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Incorporated is an organization of college educated women committed to the constructive development of our members and public service with a primary focus on the black community.

Our local chapter's goals are in line and in mission with our aligned international organization.

Even though we have several service areas, our service specifically in Harrisonburg includes programming such as the Congolese Purse Project giveaway, which we distributed over 80 purses to Congolese women in Harrisonburg with personal needs as we partnered with two churches in the area.

Also, we provided CPR training that was taught by members of our chapter and offered to our members as well as the public here in Harrisonburg.

In addition, we have a book drive that's been hosted in Harrisonburg where we collected books that were donated to the local public schools as well as the homeless.

Each year we participate in the 5K autism awareness walk.

We've held the African American

Reedin, which is a national program that focuses on literacy in the Black community that's also been held here in Harrisonburg as well.

And we've also organized powerful, robust, and informative voter registration drives not only in Harrisonburg, but in Louisa and Waynesboro as well.

Our public motto is intelligence is the source of wisdom.

So it goes without saying that our support of the advancement of education in our community is pivotal.

We offer a number of scholarships in the area.

We have the Charlottesville Alumni Chapter Educational Scholarship, which is awarded to women of color who excel in their academic achievement, their citizenship, and their community involvement throughout their high school career.

We also have the Josephine Witsett Scholarship in honor of one of our chapter's charter members, Miss Josephine Lightfoot Witsett, and it's extended to high school seniors in our service area.

Currently, in celebration of our Founders Day, we've partnered with the Haven and Charlottesville to provide much-needed supplies to a multi-resource day shelter for the unhoused.

So this Saturday, we celebrate our Founders Day on January the 13th, and as an organization, we continue to build strong relationships with the communities that we serve, and we continue to remind ourselves that we stand because of the steadfast,

dedication of our founders, 22 trailblazing dynamic women who were phenomenal.

Thank you again for your recognition and support.

It's an honor to be with the council and with the city of Harrisonburg tonight.

Well, thank you all for coming today.

Congratulations on the 111 years.

Thank you for your service to Harrisonburg and your larger service.

I appreciate you coming here today because I think the recognition of your work probably isn't widely known as it should be.

It's with Councilman Jones and Omega as well and the Divine Nine Fraternities and Sororities that represents a great amount of work that's done in our community.

Often, maybe quiet, unrecognized.

I think that's probably something that's not unfamiliar to many black women of how they service in the community.

Not that you're quiet people.

But your service is done for the greater good and so I appreciate that.

We have ten colleges and universities in the Shenandoah Valley and it is extremely important that the parents, the business community, the students that attend those universities and everyone engages in tourism or anything.

in the Valley actually knows and recognizes your particular chapter, its existence in addition to James Madison's chapter as well.

It's extremely important that we celebrate Blackness.

A lot of times we go over Black History Month and we look at achievements that we've done throughout history.

It starts off as a doom and gloom story.

We don't celebrate and so it's wonderful to be able to just celebrate you tonight and to tell you thank you for all that Delta has done over the last 111 years but my favorite thing that you all have done which I have very very many I could go on and on but Delta Sigma Delta taught me how to read and so in my mother's beauty shop and so I was able to enter preschool

at a second or third grade reading level.

And who would have thought, unfortunately, that people my age were guaranteed black men, let me be clear, African American black men were predicted to go straight to jail, right?

Or to the cemetery, if you were growing up in the 90s.

I know people think we're going to hell in the handbasket right now, but you should have been around when I was a teenager.

It was a swell time.

And for those of you that are older than me or my age, you remember the news, right?

You remember the time.

But you all prepared me at two and three and four years old to keep me out of that statistic.

And so to that, I say thank you.

That was well before we even had the data to talk about third grade readers, not being a third grade well reader.

Dany Fleming.

Councilman Fleming is very familiar.

He caught me in distress when we were in Atlanta and he saw my lovely ladies of Delta Sigma Theta surrounding me and being a Omega helping me when I was in a distressed moment and so he saw it like live in an action.

I am just amazed to be sitting here with one but also to look out and see all these beautiful shades of me and I am so very proud of all of your personal achievements.

I know many of you personally and I've seen the struggle, I've seen the hard work, I've seen the dedication to bringing younger women who look like us bring them up and help them achieve

They're wildest imagination.

They're biggest dreams.

So to have you guys here today, although I am not a part of your organization, doesn't mean that I don't respect you and acknowledge that you are dynamite.

You are deliverable.

You are devastating in so many wonderful ways.

And I am proud

to say that you are a part of the shades of me.

I am just so happy for you guys today.

Thank you for your service.

Thank you for your work and many blessings and continued prayers that things just continue to go up, up, up and up for you guys.

You're flying girls.

Don't let anything stop you.

That wind is underneath your wings now.

Y'all better watch out.

I just wanted to say how inspiring and encouraging it is to see these powerful, confident black women and the sisterhood that you embody.

And now I see more of where our wonderful mayor comes from, that sisterhood that lifts you all up.

I promised you I would get you out of here by 7.15.

So we are a little over time.

But thank you for some of these women.

My sorority sisters came from as far as Charlottesville, Louisa, Waynesboro.

And so they came in the rain to get here to be acknowledged.

So I appreciate it.

I have been a Delta for 39 years.

And it was one of the

Best decisions I ever made in my life.

And this chapter, although I didn't come through this chapter, I came through Newside chapter in 1985 at Bradford University.

But this chapter I always say, Newside made me, Charlottesville raised me.

I have been a part of this chapter for probably 27 years, maybe a little longer than that.

And I have

It's been supported in the good times and the bad times and we truly love each other.

And so it's been an honor for me to be a Delta.

I love being a Delta, but more it's an honor for me to serve the sisterhood and serve our community together with.

These young ladies, as well as we have probably about 50 more in our chapter.

So thank you for coming across the mountain.

And I'll see you on Saturday.

You can stay if you want.

We're moving on.

I know you're trying to leave.

Get on the bus.

I'll see you Saturday.

All right, Councilman Jones wants to get something to drink and we're gonna go to our consent agenda when he comes back.

So we're going to go to item five, consent agenda.

Any items placed on the consent agenda shall be removed and taken up as a separate matter if so requested by any member of council.

Otherwise, all items will be voted on with one motion.

Madam Mayor, I move to approve the consent agenda as presented.

Second.

Any discussion?

Hi.

Vice Mayor Dent.

Hi.

Council Member Robinson.

Hi.

Hi.

We will now go into our public hearings.

My name is Kristen McComb and I am the Community Development Block Grant Manager for the City of Harrisonburg.

I'm here tonight for a public hearing.

The Community Development Block Grant, or CDBG program, is a flexible program that provides communities with resources to address a wide range of unique community development needs.

Beginning in 1974, the CDBG program is one of the longest continuously run programs at HUD.

The CDBG program provides annual grants on a formula basis to about 1,200 general units of local government and states.

CDBG funds must be used for activities that benefit low and moderate income persons.

In addition, each activity must meet one of the following national objectives for the program.

To benefit low and moderate income persons, the prevention or elimination of slums or blight, or it needs to address community development needs, having a particular urgency because existing conditions pose a serious and immediate threat to the health or welfare of the community for which the funding is not, other funding is not available.

The CDBG is federally funded through the U.S.

Department of Housing and Urban Development, or HUD.

The city of Harrisonburg receives an annual allocation that is then distributed to eligible projects within the city.

Over recent years, the city's CDBG allocation has been within the range of about $505,000 to $576,000.

We don't know what the 2024 funding will be at this point, so we'll move forward with the assumption that will be similar to what we received last year.

around half a million.

The city completed a CDBG five-year strategic plan in 2022.

The strategic plan identifies the five-year goals.

These goals must be met as the city spends CDBG funds.

Copies of the current strategic plan are available in the city manager's office or online at www.harrisonburgba.gov.

So our current strategic plan details six goals, which the CDBG program must meet by the 2026 plan year.

The first goal is to improve the access to and quality of housing in the city.

This includes the rehabilitation and preservation of quality affordable housing, as well as increasing the access to home ownership through city initiatives and partnerships with the HRHI.

Our second goal is to continue and expand public infrastructure within the city, particularly that which is outdated or deteriorating and needs to be repaired or replaced.

The third goal is to expand and continue non-housing community development and supportive services.

Historically, most non-profits in the city that have applied for CDBG funding have looked to achieve this particular goal.

Broad education and enforcement activities are necessary to effectively further fair housing.

The city is firmly committed to affirmatively furthering fair housing through its CDBG program.

The fifth goal is to provide administration, training, investigation, and enforcement.

This includes all administrative and planning costs to operate the CDBG programs successfully.

And the last goal is that the city will continue public facility improvements in eligible areas of the city.

Here is the grant timeline for the next several months.

I'd like to draw attention to the applicant training session that will be this Thursday at 2 p.m.

All organizations that are interested in applying should plan to attend this online meeting.

Applications will be due at noon on February 15th this year.

So those are kind of the key dates on that.

Okay, we will open this item up for public hearing.

Anyone who wishes to speak, please state your name and address.

Seeing none in person.

You are now live with City Council.

Please state your name and address.

Madam Mayor Panagioti, this city resident, ten years ago the Northeast neighborhood came forward with a community development block grant proposal that we today would recognize as we're rehearsing for the Biden administration in the

in the Climate Pollution Reduction Grant, which centers environmental justice and community-led community development, and in the American Climate Corps, which looks to provide sustained funding, looking a lot like a job guarantee, all of which was envisioned in that

application that was not funded a decade ago, right after our street renaming.

Many of you were a part of that.

That should, I think, set the example for how we should think about this grant and federal funding in general.

Had we gotten behind those ideas, Harrisonburg would today be the model for the country that Stan Maglin and Matt

and Mr. Jones envisioned in those days a decade ago and also I would like to commend ten years ago the founding of the Shenandoah Valley Black Heritage Project and recognize that we've lost many elders who are part of these visions including I should note Sharon Barber and the appreciation to Council Member Robinson.

Thank you.

Any other callers?

Mayor Reed, there are no additional callers.

I will now close public hearing on this item.

and let me make sure I'm right here.

6B, C and D.

6B, C. Okay.

Thank you Madam Mayor.

Adam Fletcher, Director of Community Development.

As we just noted, I will be covering three agenda items in one presentation tonight so I will try to answer any questions you have at the end of that and the development team is here this evening that can also answer any questions you might have that I cannot answer.

We will be talking about a comprehensive plan amendment.

The amendment is to change a land use guide designation from low density, mixed residential to medium density residential, a rezoning from multiple zoning districts to R5C and R8C, and then also a simultaneous use permit to allow for townhomes in the R8 district.

The property is outlined here, bounded here in red.

You see three different zoning districts.

R3 conditional, R7 and R1, that's the green, purple and the yellow.

The R3 property was rezoned way back in 1994 from R1 to R3.

and there were some proffers associated with it, regulating uses that would not be permitted on the site.

It's listed there in your staff report talking about things like they would not permit multifamily buildings or town homes, college university buildings, hospitals, charitable involvement, institutional uses.

It was all to make way for opportunities for there to be professional offices, which is what this property has had on the property for decades now.

The R7 property was rezoned.

You all will remember this one just a few years back in March of 2020 when a team of folks came forward to propose a rezoning to a master planned community which was known as Jennifer Hill Commons and during that time and only in the purple area they were planning to have 28 dwelling units which included

15 townhome units, two duplex structures, eight multi-family apartments, one single-family home, and the plan there was for six units per acre.

And if you recall, they were clustering development on one half of the property and leaving the other half of the property open, such as that northwestern hillside.

And then this is the first time we've now talked about the undeveloped R1 property, but this property we're going to be talking about this evening has a comprehensive redevelopment plan to incorporate all three of these properties, and they're proposing to rezone to two different districts, which is the R5 conditional and the R8 conditional.

So let's get into some of the details.

The zoning, before you here, we have industrial to the north, more undeveloped, R1 to the east, the south, and then B2 property across Country Club Road.

That's Kroger Shopping Center, GGMax, that complex there.

Long's our plans for this area of the city.

As I noted, we'll be talking about a compliant amendment, but currently what we have are two different designations.

You have the mixed use designation, which is on the front half, and the low density mixed residential on the right half.

and then the aerial photograph of this area.

You'll see sort of a line there in the middle.

It is a drainage area, but it is not a regulated floodplain, and that's just important to understand whether it is understanding to be quite a bit of drainage that flows through there.

Their engineer is very much aware of that and had planned in advance for the previous development to accommodate that, even though it is not a regulated floodplain.

All of this to make way for the project that's before you, and we'll get into some of the details here.

First here talking about the land use guide amendment.

We are talking about a land use guide change for the area that's shown here in blue.

And that's to take that low density mixed residential to the medium density residential.

The Shading

The proposal here is the changes designation from the low density mixed residential to the medium density and that anticipates about 15 units an acre.

Most of the housing types and special circumstances, one of which we'll be talking about this evening, anticipates for multifamily dwelling units and some non-residential can be accommodated.

and then what the current property is and also all property then to the northeast in this image is mainly the single family or excuse me, low density mixed residential which carries an anticipation of about seven units an acre mainly focusing on single family detached and some duplex dwelling units and then still very small scale non-residential opportunities.

So I just wanted you to understand the differences that are out there and the proposal that's before you.

Moving into the rezoning component of it is really just kind of some odd shaped of the zoning categories because the area that I've shown here is all to be rezoned to the R5 conditional as there are proffers associated with it and it then splits to different areas of the property into the R8 conditional.

Both of those sections then are for the third application here this evening which is to apply for the special use permit for the town homes to be available in the R8 district.

And just a few photographs of the site.

This is looking northwest, Country Club Road there to the left.

Or images here from Country Club Road.

Now taken from Kieseltown Road, the existing single-family detached building that's on site.

And then just more of the open space area.

And you can see the low-lying area there in the middle of the image as it's sort of a bowl-shaped area.

All of this is to make way for multi-family, the buildings there in the orange color, and then the town homes that are planned on both sides of the public streets here.

And then we have plans for single-family detached dwellings just along the frontage of Gieseltown Road.

So many proffers, all of the details of the proffers are in your staff report, but I'll just highlight them very quickly here for you.

If you want to follow along in your staff report, the specifics there and the details.

But the first proffer is to construct, to ensure the construction of a public street from Kieseltown Road to the eastern boundary, and that anticipates for an extension of the undeveloped property that could extend the public street out throughout the undeveloped area there.

Really where the farm field is when you travel up Kieseltown Road.

Second Prophers construct the second public street, which is to go north-south, connecting to the first public street.

They are proffering a shared use path along public street number one.

That is, rather than doing a sidewalk on that particular side of the street, providing a shared use path really sets the precedent for us to then expect the next developer to continue that shared use path into the undeveloped area.

It would be a 10-foot wide shared use path.

There are two very large oak trees that the applicant would really hope to preserve during the construction process and to meet that commitment.

They have proffer to protect and preserve those two oak trees that are along the country club road.

But of course, if they are lost during construction because of compaction of soil from heavy equipment and so forth,

They're proffering that they would then replace them with two trees that would be taller at the time of planting at 15 feet or taller and they would be deciduous trees, but they really hope to maintain the two large ones that are already there.

The fifth proper proffer is to limit occupancy within the R5 component.

So the multi-family dwellings would be limited to a family or two people.

Typically R5 carries an occupancy opportunity of four unrelated individuals, but they are limiting that to our family.

Parking proffers then associated with this R5 section is that they would provide one parking space for every

Dwelling unit that's one bedroom and one and a half parking spaces for dwelling units with two or more bedrooms.

They plan to provide additional tree planting which is outside of the tree planting that would be required by our landscaping regulations.

They're providing a playground of no less than 1,800 square feet in area.

The multi-family buildings will be limited to three stories and not to exceed 45 feet in height.

That is in comparison to the existing zoning of R1 at 35 of maximum, R3 and R7, both 40 foot maximum.

All three of the existing zoning districts have a three-story maximum, so they are very similar to that capacity there.

So just 5 feet additional in height.

They're building in some flexibility there for themselves.

The 10th proffer is the dedication of Right Away.

That's along Kutcher Club Road and Kuseltown Road.

Moving on to 11, 12, and 13, which are our final three proffers.

Proffer number 11 is limiting the number of dwelling units within the R5 component to 56 dwelling units, no more than 56.

Within the R8 is no more than 62 dwelling units, made up primarily of townhomes.

And the final proffer is that the multifamily units within the R5 zone would be limited to one, two, or efficiency type unit configurations.

We'd like to speak to some of this on the schematic here of some of the details that we just discussed.

First and foremost, that first public street.

So this would be a dedicated public street.

You will see this in the future if it gets approved as a preliminary subdivision plot.

So they will have to come back and preliminary plot that for the dedication of the public streets.

This sets the precedent we hope to achieve in this area, which is a network of public streets as it might continue then into the undeveloped property.

Of course, you know that this is a huge acreage of undeveloped property, so this would set a very good precedent for us to be able to serve citizens that would reside in this area with dedicated public streets.

The second public street is also proffered.

The shared use path along the south side of the first public street.

Those two oak trees really were shown in an earlier image there.

Just really large trees again that they're hoping to maintain.

Dedication of right away along Country Claw, dedication right away along Kieseltown.

And I point out one detail here is that what the development plan is showing is that they do not anticipate on building sidewalk in the section of the public street that is shown that I've shown there with the red line.

It's not really a matter you need to talk about tonight because they'll have to come back and request a variance to deviate from that standard, but just wanted to point out that they are hoping to achieve that deviation in the future.

The idea here is that they do have public sidewalk along both public streets, the shared use of path along the other public streets, and this is the only section of the property that is not served by residential units, so they're hoping to take that into consideration for the future.

All other streets in the network would be private streets.

Staff looked upon this favorably with regard to the land use guide specifically.

We had given the consideration that much of this area is undeveloped.

There's a lot of opportunity out here for the adjacent properties to the east to be developed, recognizing that there's a great housing need in the city.

And in fact, the housing assessment pointed out that there is an opportunity to increase density all throughout the city.

We felt that this was a request that we could support.

We found that it could really be either a catalyst really that serves as opportunity to discuss other density increases in this area, but at the very least serves as a good transitional area from the mixed use of the higher density, the medium density, medium density of course, and then moving on to the low density mix, a good transitional space that we believed to be there.

With regard to the rezoning, we support the rezoning request and the special use permit request as well.

Note that they specifically requested to have an extension of the special use permit approval because the default deadline is 12 months from the date of approval.

They need to act on special use permit.

They're specifically asking for an additional 12 months for 24.

Staff is also comfortable with that opportunity for them to take more time to engage with the special use permit.

The last thing I want to point out is, if you read very detailed in the staff report, there was mistakenly a reference to old proffers that were included in here about proffers that used to be part of the program, but are not part of it anymore.

They were talking about when they would be able to obtain certificates of occupancy for particular types of units, when public streets were built, and they no longer were proffering that.

So I just wanted to be clear that that is no longer a proffer, but it was around as we kept it in the staff report.

And that's a unanimous... All three, ma'am.

Right.

I just want to make that clear for BCND.

Yes, ma'am.

Right.

Okay.

I have a quick question, so I'm assuming the single families are for sale units?

I believe that's the case.

I can let the development team speak to that matter.

I believe that is their intent, is to sell these P-townhome units, be simple.

There's medium density, residential, medium density, mixed residential.

There's low density residential, low density mixed residential.

Those are four separate categories.

And when we specifically have in the title that it's a mixed designation, there's more emphasis, more promotion of having more mixed use, more non-residential in those spaces.

That's exactly what I was going to ask.

I don't want them to belabor us because I mean we got a 7-0 vote but I am not asked because Dany and the mayor had said it.

What's the price point?

I love the development team answer that.

But that's all I need to know though.

Thank you.

I'm going to open this item up.

So we're going to open up public caring for all three items.

We will vote separately.

So I will open up public caring for items 6B, C, and D. And the developers are here.

So I'm thinking they will speak first.

Apologies I didn't wear my red today.

My name is Mark Ogie.

I've been involved 31 My Address.

It's in 3168 in Preston Lake Boulevard.

I've been involved in real estate development in Harrisonburg for about 19 years now.

and I just want to give you a brief presentation on the project to answer some of your questions and introduce our team.

So we've got Scott Rogers here, our real estate expert.

We have Courtney Leach in the audience who will speak as well.

She's our project coordinator.

She handles some quality control and she helps design the amenities which we'll show you a little bit about.

and Mr. Jerry Scripture.

We've got about a combined 50 years of working together with him.

He did wear his red sweater today.

So we've got some slides here of projects we have worked on in the past just to give you an example of what we're looking at.

Here's Stone Spring Village.

This is residential housing in the city.

Avalon Woods Townhouse Neighborhood, which you've all been familiar with,

This design is similar to what you're going to see in Tuscan Village as far as the layout goes.

But the facade is going to be much different so we'll show you that.

Heritage Estates, which is a 55 and up neighborhood near the golf course.

Liberty Square, this is a good example here of the amenities that we're looking at if you see in the center of that picture.

The playground area is something similar to what we're envisioning here and it's been well received in that neighborhood.

R. R.

somewhat abandoned by the original developer.

They didn't want to complete it.

We came in, took it over, and finished it out.

It was 89 additional housing homes that we created there.

Towns of Congress Creek, this is our most recent project in the county, and we're on the verge of wrapping this up.

And as Mr. Fletcher alluded to, there's a need for housing in the city is what we're aware of, and that's what we're trying to address here.

So, you know, a couple key points.

Here's another example of the amenities with Congress Creek.

We just finished this recently, so you can drive by and take a look.

Also been very well received.

So, just to give you an overall, you know, approach of what we're looking for.

It's a high quality community.

We want it to be in the right price point, which we'll get to when Scott speaks.

The architectural inspiration is going to come from the stone and stucco you might see in Tuscany.

And you're going to see that theme throughout the community, so we'll coordinate.

We'll tell you a little bit more about that.

We've got a short, tiny, short video for you.

And as Mr. Fletcher mentioned, we want to preserve the trees on site.

It's a beautiful location.

So we're going to do everything we can to maintain that.

And to answer Mr. Fleming's point, we are selling these town homes to the community.

The apartments on site are going to be maintained by us.

And we all live here.

We raise our families here.

So we have a vested interest to make sure that this community thrives.

Adam did a wonderful job giving you a layout of the site plan just to call out the two different property types here.

So we're planning to build three-story townhouses with two car garages.

You can see a rendering here and these would be offered for sale.

We would hope to be offering those in the upper 200s and low 300s with a target market of first-time buyers Most of the new entry-level housing right now is being built in the county and we've built and sold a lot of town homes in the county but we talked to plenty of folks who would like to buy and live in the city and so we'd like to create some foresale housing in the city for people who would like to

Live in the city and would like to own their homes.

And then we plan to be building apartments and those would be trying to fill the unmet need of smaller and the slightly more affordable apartments in the city.

We're trying to have all of those likely be one bedroom apartments.

Some could be efficiencies or two bedrooms, but trying to create more inventory of apartment rentals at a little bit smaller footprint for some of what we anticipate as some of the unmet need in the city.

and this is another rendering of a street through the townhouse neighborhood where you're kind of looking off of the balcony of the front of one of the townhouses towards the next row of townhouses.

We're planning on a lot of trees and nice landscaped backyard areas behind the townhouses.

Stop right there.

Stop for a second.

So we don't have prices set for the apartments yet.

And what are the quantities again?

54 apartments.

We'll say 60.

Whatever Adam said.

Multiple slides ago.

Yep, sure.

Courtney?

Tonight, I would like to start off by introducing you to our Tuscan Village.

As Scott mentioned, many of our design elements come from the streets of Tuscany.

Exterior facades feature stucco and a variety of colors, stone, and various cuts and applications.

As you can tell from the video, we will have balconies, terra tiles, and window boxes.

The apartments will also feature stucco and stone.

We have thought out a lot about the floor plans for these townhomes.

We're most excited about the two car garages with additional storage that will be featured as well as energy efficient six inch exterior walls.

The main floor plans have been thoughtfully designed after many years of working with townhouse buyers and the townhouse and apartment communities will both feature pedestrian and bike friendly travel ways.

All townhomes will be solar ready and feature a solar orientation.

Garages will be electric vehicle charger ready, and all units will feature standard bike storage areas.

As mentioned earlier, Tuscan Village will include various amenities for planning for green spaces as well as playgrounds.

Just another quick point.

You heard about amenities and the energy efficiency.

This is also going to be locally sourced.

So we're all from here.

The suppliers and subs we're going to use are going to be local.

And we're ready to go.

So this isn't something that's going to be approved.

And be sitting there.

We're ready to go make this happen now.

to provide these homes for people.

Any questions you got?

That was my next question.

I think that's where we're starting.

That would depend on a buyer.

So the base completely low.

I mean, upper twos and low threes would be the base price, but in all of our communities we allow buyers to select whatever options and upgrades they would like.

Spend quite a bit more on upgrades that they want to add to the townhouses.

We tried to build very nice townhouses with base features that are going to be beautiful and lovely and long lasting, but some buyers decided to customize them.

Dany Fleming

So this isn't me beating you up or picking on you, but it's true.

So how are you guys going to maintain the aesthetics of it?

Because this isn't college island, right?

So it ain't a put it up and walking away.

So we got to make, so is there any, I'm not asking you to swear on your life that you're going to keep it clean, but it's on country club road.

There happens to be a church.

I hear a whole lot about this right down the street that another two thousand or three

We've got a shared interest in that.

We're going to be maintaining those apartments and part of us making it worthwhile as much as we can for us is going to make it as attractive as possible is what we're going to have to do.

As far as how you maintain the stucco,

I was saying that's a sweet spot because it's not heavily wooded.

It's on the back side of the woods.

I was just concerned about this a little bit.

That's all.

I'm sure it's going to look great.

I just want to make sure though it

Yeah, absolutely.

One of the reasons why we did choose the exterior materials that we did is because Jerry built heritage estates and planted, you know, as many trees around those homes as we plan to plant here, then he's seen how those materials have worn over the years.

I'm going to focus on the apartments because that's something that I'm interested in.

I'm glad that you're meeting the need of one-bedroom efficiency apartment that's part of the housing study as well.

I am going to push about what it will the rent be because that's a lot of we need affordable

This isn't a row of apartments in one big building.

We've got multiple buildings.

Each one of these is going to have its own freestanding presence.

So when you walk into these apartments, it's not going to feel like you're walking into a motel.

This is going to be very classy.

We're going to have a shared breezeway between the two sides.

It's going to have that Tuscan feel.

We've been working with the architects on this quite a bit to make sure it maintains that classy feel.

And while still being efficient, so as far as the rent goes, we're targeting that one-bedroom demographic and we kind of know what that range needs to be.

I think what that means is it's going to have a cohesive theme.

So you're not going to see disjointed looking unit types or buildings.

We want to have that amenity feature to be a big prominent part of it so you can have a true sense of community.

I think that speaks to quality.

And then the materials we're using to Mr. Jones's point.

These materials aren't necessarily the cheapest or easiest to use, but they go a long way for building an attractive community.

You know, I'm going to add to that.

Oh, good.

You have a part of that.

You know, the quality is the community sense.

You know, Jerry has in mind having, you know, you went out again over the street.

I don't think it's only important for him to do that, but he will have some of the interesting apartments, for example, you know, a large house.

Things like that.

And the idea is that all these apartments and their own homes are produced in communities.

Except that you have apartments over there and then, you know, single family or duplicates or mortals in this case owned by people, you know, they're going to separate.

In this case, the idea is to bring them together.

The other aspect is, you know, as much as we can, we're trying to make it, you know, as green as possible, so adding landscape, you know, and amenities and things like that, which, to me, is a mix of quality flags, you know, and that's what, personally, that's what I care about.

I want to make sure that this is not just

You know, packing it in there.

I know we want to increase density, right?

We want to make sure that we have housing.

But with density, we need to make sure that we provide quality of life.

You know, there's a place that people are happy to live in.

We don't want, in this case, people to be here for a couple of months and go somewhere else.

We want to live here and stay, you know.

So that's part of the plan here.

I'm pretty excited about this.

I mean, I think it's a great, great project, you know.

I lived near Gale for years, and if it looks like his place, I'll vote twice, yes.

I got a spotless outside.

There we go.

Gale is good.

Gale is good.

So hopefully that answers all your questions or your other questions.

Yeah, I see somebody.

Oh boy.

I'm having a hearing problem, but I don't know if Gil or anybody mentioned that we plan to put stone walls near the entrance to each of the, there's five, there will ultimately be five subdivisions holding the nine units there and we'll have walls in front that give you kind of a Tuscan sense of arrival that are coming into a Tuscan village and we need City Council

I think hard about coming up with a couple of names, whether we call each of those five things at different piazzas or plazas or terra, I need a name and we're going to name, I told Naomi and her hubby that we're going to name each building inside those plazas and in each of those five subdivisions we're going to give each one

We are going to try to make it classy.

You are going to come home too.

Deanna R.

So what's the number of owned homes again?

So 56.

56 is owned.

That's not including a single family.

So we've got two single family homes as well.

Just two.

That's right, that's right.

Yeah, that's a good question.

Sure.

I noticed, Councilwoman, I noticed that some of our county, like the larger county employers like Merck and some of those bigger ones.

But it went bedrooms when they moved in because I found that some of those individuals end up splitting four bedrooms because of the residual college student housing or we overbuilt.

because people were fighting to get more rents.

That's a one-bedroom, so... Just wondering about the reasoning behind it in the example since... Yeah, good question.

Thank you.

If we don't have any more questions, I'm going to continue with our public hearing.

So, thank you.

If we have anyone else who wishes to speak, please state your name and address.

You'll have five minutes.

Seeing none in person.

Pam, do we have any calls?

I know you are a city resident.

Madam Mayor, if I recall correctly, this parcel was previously proposed for a co-housing development, something that I spoke in favor of at that time as a visionary model for how

We could look at housing in the whole community and also the time commended that we looked to thinking about our non-conforming manufactured homes in a similar way.

One of the features that that proposal contained was a proposal for a natural meadow, a large natural meadow.

Now while we are not losing 40 acres of forest for this, let us not forget

what could have been that unfortunately we were not able to sustain as a city.

As you discuss, I hope that I will not hear discussion of housing being too expensive or housing being too scarce.

We heard from Liz Webb, the housing corridor later last time, finally that what we have in Harrisonburg is not a housing cost problem, but a

but a wage problem.

She described it dawning upon her coming to realize that our wages were not sufficient to cover cost of construction.

And when we talk about the quantity of housing, Mr. Wong before that, with regard to a housing shortage that is not a self-imposed feature of occupancy limits,

They describe employers wanting to come here and finding a shortage of housing for workers that they do not want to pay enough to cover the cost of construction.

So let's just keep those things in mind as we think about housing in Harrisonburg.

And how do we solve that problem of not having high enough wages?

We make the city a place where people want to come and live.

We look at the build, the social and the natural environment that would make Harrisonburg a place where people want to live as opposed to a place where people want to come because that is where they have to work.

With that, as we think about housing, is this the housing that we want?

Maybe.

Let's think about it in context.

To what extent do we want to shoulder the burden of

Thank you.

If you are now live with City Council, please state your name and address in your five minutes.

Hi, my name is Dawn Neal and I live at 655 Kieseltown Road, Harrisonburg, Virginia.

And I'm extremely concerned about this housing development and the traffic that will increase on both Kieseltown Road and Country Club Road.

We already have a lot of traffic on those roads.

and the intersection on Kiesel Town Road and on Country Club Road, it can be very difficult to get in and out of.

And adding all of these additional people and cars onto those roads, is there any plans on what that is going to look like?

Also, adding these additional housing

to a school system that's already overflowing and not able to support the children that they have now adding additional families into those spaces.

Are the school systems going to be able to support these additional houses and families?

I am concerned environmentally as well with this beautiful acreage that's there that doesn't have all this land.

and the deer and the animals that are coming through that area that are going to lose their homes from adding additional housing.

So those are my mostly concerns in our quiet neighborhood.

This is going to increase the noise level and increase just the traffic and pollution in the area that has relatively been quiet.

So thank you for your time.

My name is Tony Mothos.

I live at 384 Whisper Street here in Harrisonburg and I think bringing more housing to our community is a great idea.

What I would like to just throw out there for consideration is

The traffic surveys that have been conducted along Kieseltown and Country Globe Road, just to, whether it's the traffic circle, traffic light, just to ease that.

Also, the design I saw had a sidewalk deleted from the project in Fairfax County.

I was a member of the Non-Motorized Transportation Committee, which is the Trails Committee.

saw many of these sidewalks deleted and it actually impacted the lower income individuals, minorities, with their ability to have access to facilities.

I know that there's a 10 foot walk on the opposite side.

However, with the design that I just saw, it poses a potential cut through and the

as a separate vote.

Madam Mayor, I move to approve item 6B in considering and honoring and accepting the request from Daniel R. and Namely R. Shank, Harrisonburg, Co-Housing, LLC, and Brenda G. Castillo, and Ted A. Morris to amend the comprehensive plans.

Yeah, as to the discussion about traffic, I wanted to amend something I said, or I got a correction from Adam Fletcher.

When I said traffic is not a reason not to build something with a traffic impact analysis, whether it is performed or not, it's really more about what I said was what the city would need to do to mitigate it.

And Adam Fletcher said it's actually up to the developer to have to mitigate, to add

Dany.

I just want to make sure that it's clear that the developers themselves do most of the public streets and perhaps there might be some cost sharing for a new traffic light or something, but it's not entirely up to the city.

In fact, I'm really impressed with how much the developers do to actually build the city, building the streets that go with it.

Another point I wanted to make is I learned a new word from Gil.

Microbioretention.

And that is a great way of addressing the environmental considerations that people have brought up.

Yeah, there's a lot of water going down into a bowl shape, but they're not just building it to have a pond at the bottom to catch it.

They're doing terracing and landscaping, and I had this vision of

Tuscan stone walls with lavender flowing over them and they've got the renditions with the trees and all.

So that terracing is exactly what you see in Italy and for that exact reason to control the flooding and the water, water retention.

and when it comes to traffic concerns, when is that addressed?

Is that addressed now?

Is that something that, yeah, now?

And one thing I want to, you know, I do want to state, I mean, I know Councilman Jones has always said this.

You know, we're a growing city and so we don't have much land in the city.

And so at some point, we're going to hit your neighbor with some type of developer.

As Harrisonburg grows, we have to

We want people to come to the city.

And so it's going to be that we're going to hit your neighborhood, we're going to hit your, you know, at some point.

But we want to continue to be a thriving, vibrant, growing city that people want to come and live, work, and play.

And so I understand

We have to grow and I like the way development teams come in front of us.

You didn't miss too much this time.

When I saw the solar panels and the chargers, I was like, well, they know their council because this one over here, maybe she didn't get her vote.

And that's how we work, you know, we work together.

But we got to understand here's the biggest problem.

So it's safe then to assume I'm asking as a question.

There's always been a traffic problem on Country Club Road.

There's always been a traffic problem getting across if you're leaving TJ Max shopping Plaza going over to Kiesel Town Road.

So once the development is built

The idea is that the developer will do as much good as they can possibly do

for their development and for economic development overall.

So that's why sometimes you'll see them straightening up streets, adding sidewalks, not adding sidewalks.

Whatever these twists and turns they may have to make life better.

Right?

So that's the development part.

The economic part is just got to make money for them and be beneficial for the city too.

So there's not creating like an unnecessary burden on us to have to do work as well.

And it's really, really good when it coordinates with future plans that we may have.

So when the development meets city plans, when we're building, then that's really the sweet spot.

And then if we can find DOT grants, Department of Transportation from the state, those types of grants and other things from Public Works, sometimes that all just goes in those together.

but Country Club in my opinion is the exact opposite of I think everything I just said.

I mean you got you got railroad that was there you've got drainage issues you've got developers and people that God bless every city council in 50 years from now we will say all types of things about us but previous city councils the way they approve things

If you drive down there, it's not, I always talk about this vote on a continuum.

I'm trying to, if you point back at what I've done since I've been here, it's a straight line.

I'm trying my best to at least stay on that straight line.

And I think all of us together have stayed on a, some going towards a certain path, but if you just drive down country, it makes no sense.

But that's people, how things were developed and not in coordination with the city or not in coordination with

in the business community at the time or not in coordination with housing in mind or not in coordination with the environment in mind and not in coordination clearly with overall state transportation because of the railway that was there.

So all your questions I think were really good because it helps to educate the people that already live there because they're thinking, hey, I bought it and it should look like this.

Well, I've learned to look at these things when they come on the agenda and really start looking at the pros and the cons.

We can't have a hundred percent, you know, lovely, you know, birds chirping in sunshine on everything that comes across the agenda.

The city's plan is where the city's needs are.

I kind of feel like, you know, traffic is over here.

This is the building.

We're growing.

We're thriving.

We're getting what we need.

This part is going to catch up to it.

So I feel like developments like this have so much potential for good stuff for the city.

that I want to acknowledge that people's concerns, like I hear the call when she says I'm concerned about traffic.

I'm concerned about the number of people, the number of children entering into an already bulging school building.

I just want them to know that we hear you, but we also are working hard on the other end.

At the same time, to be prepared for those bumps in the road, and there are things that we can do as a council to try to help

As long as Harrisonburg keeps growing, you're going to have traffic.

You're going to have issues like this.

And it's going to be up to us to do the best we can to kind of relieve that pressure.

But you can go into any growing city and it's going to be tough.

It's going to be more Charlottesville.

It's not Charlottesville.

We're not lived there for 20 years.

I can't get from one side of Charlottesville to the other side without being a track.

I can't get from the other side of Harrisonburg to get to the other side of Harrisonburg without being a track.

We're growing city.

And so these adjustments are part of it.

Being an older city, we don't have properties.

We don't have developments that don't have challenges and things we can do to resolve and solve for any of them.

So the question comes to this one that we recently addressed and solved.

You know, Country Club Road will have work done on it.

So that looks at Country Club Road.

You know, it is a problem in Harrisonburg.

Going east-west is our problem.

Right, we don't have the types of arteries that go east-west like we do north to north-south.

There are a number of reasons why that's the case.

We have a major highway through the city as well, so I think we're in some problems.

So, you know, this particular property is not too far from telemetry school and into middle school.

We know when we build and we need a place for kids, we address that.

This will be a tax-paying property.

I'm pretty sure you guys are tax-free.

But we'll be contributing that, so that's one of the ways we address our school needs.

And I don't know what this school impact will be on this property necessarily.

I think in one of the things I read, it said like maybe 50, 60 fast.

But I think, you know, just as kind of an addition to our city housing stock, I think this is unique in many ways.

I think that's what we want to do.

We want to have housing stock that meets a lot of different needs in our city and is attractive.

in ways that we might not have in the city.

That is how we grow, that's how we get folks here.

People will just move out to Reston Lake or to Bend Layer and live in something like that.

Well, they'll do the one bedrooms or the smaller, like one of my good friends was a doctor at Centera before he, when he lived here.

He wanted to live in the city so bad he couldn't, because everything was too big, because we were just having a dog.

So he had to live out whatever that road is going towards Epp and Emmett to 30.

There we go.

And so he overpaid to live in the county with less amenities.

and didn't have to drive all the way back and forth.

He's a single guy.

Eventually he met his wife and all that good stuff.

But my point is, we couldn't, and I didn't have any resident, we didn't have any residential leave and keep them here for that.

So once again, we didn't have any R1 to keep them either.

So I appreciate what's happening in the community.

I appreciate, actually everybody's comments tonight.

And this is good, this is good.

I mean, if I got to start digging

How are washing?

Clearly, it's a good project, but I wanted to say this one because Councilman Fleming and I were talking about it this week.

This spot is a really good spot because me and I were talking, it's no secret.

At some point, Harrisonburg's gonna have to go up, right?

and we can avoid it as long as possible.

I would greatly appreciate it because it looks so beautiful, right?

The views when you look up and from where this location is when you look up, it's going a little nice.

But to be able to find these nooks and crannies throughout the city, to be able to do projects like this, I commend the economic development and the minds of the developers that come into our city.

I think you got to commend that because

because our natural environment and the beauty of our natural environment, that scenery, that's part of what sells the police.

That's why people want to come here.

That's why you can build a retirement community and also build something like this for a newcomer up again or someone in their middle part of their career.

Alright, let's go ahead.

Call the phone.

Let's go.

Council Member Fleming.

Aye.

Council Member Johns.

Aye.

Nice Mayor Dent.

Aye.

Council Member Robinson.

Aye.

Mayor Reed.

Madam Mayor, I move to approve the request from Daniel R. and Naomi R. Shank, Harrisonburg Co-Housing, LLC, Brenda Castillo, Ted Morris to rezone 1816, 1820, Country Club Road, 646, 5666, 7686, 9697, 10730, Kiehl Town Road.

That's presented by staff.

Second.

Councilmember Jackson.

Aye.

Vice Mayor Dent.

Aye.

Councilmember Robinson.

Aye.

Mayor Reed.

Aye.

Madam Mayor, I move to approve the request from Daniel R. and Naomi R. Shank, Harrisonburg, Co.

Housing LLC, Brenda Castillo, and Ted Morris for a special use permit.

to allow attached town homes of not more than eight units at 1816, 1820 Country Club Road 646, 5666, 7686, 8690, 700, 710 and 730 Keele Town Road, that's presented by Stan.

Second.

That's a short discussion.

Council Member Cleming.

Aye.

Council Member Jens.

Thanks.

Vice Mayor Dent.

Aye.

Council Member Robinson.

Aye.

Mayor Reed.

Aye.

Congratulations.

The next item is a rezoning at two parcels in fact, less than an acre in size 37,900 sq.

ft.

This property is located at 1182 Nelson Drive.

The request is rezoned from R1 to R8 conditional.

This really started back this past late spring, really in June of last year.

When two applicants, the applicant of the subject site this evening and his neighbor came to the city for an administrative process to subdivide property to allow for them to just swap some land so that certain improvements on one neighbor's property that was actually built on the other neighbor's property could become part of their own.

and for the very unique situation with the shape of their parcel.

It is a non-conforming lot.

The parcel on the front, the small, long parcel is a non-conforming lot because it does not meet the R1 dimensional requirements.

So the subdivision that they had proposed to us would not work, would not meet the subdivision ordinance requirements because they wanted to lessen the width of this front parcel by making it even more narrow and staff cannot administer it fully.

We pitched multiple different scenarios to them to make it work in a way that would allow them to do a minor subdivision administratively, never have to come before plenty of commissioners to the council, but they were really, really set in a particular way and to only subdivide the way that they wanted to was to rezone the property with a zoning district that had much more flexible dimensional area requirement abilities and that's what brings us here this evening.

So to make their subdivision work, which would happen after the rezoning, they're requesting for the parcel that I've bounded here in red to be rezoned to the RA district.

And that is because the RA district has a minimum lot width requirement of only 35 feet in the subdivision that they want to perform would allow it to take place.

So zoning in this area, all zoned, are one long term plans for this area is really same.

You're not going to see any color changes here as it is continued to be similar arrangements of this neighborhood.

And then the aerial photograph of the site.

We've started to see some of these homes being built on properties that are like the second tier back away from Nelson Drive.

So a nice opportunities for some single family detached infill opportunities.

And that's what we've had out here.

So the idea here, as I just described to you, is that they wanted to put a new line, essentially where my teal line is shown there.

They would have vacated this line and then this blue parcel would have ultimately become, if you all give approval, become RA conditional.

And then that other parcel would remain Zone R1 and all would be well for them for their subdivision purposes.

Dany Fleming.

would remain Zandar 1 and Mr. Graham Ross property would become LR8.

They did submit one proffer and that is because they want to ensure to you all to the community out there that they're not looking to increase density, they're just going to maintain their single family residence and therefore they didn't put one proffer forth that they would just have the ability to have no more than one dwelling on the property.

So more than one dwelling in this case is prohibited.

Staff did not have any concern with this.

It's a very narrowly tailored situation.

We offered a favorable recommendation to Planning Commission, and they, in turn, had a favorable recommendation to you all, 6 to 0.

And I think in this particular case, Commissioner Washington had not yet arrived to the meeting, which is why it's a 6 to 0.

She arrived late and did not vote for this particular matter.

That's why it's a 6 to 0.

Thank you.

I will open this item up for public hearing.

If anyone wishes to speak,

Seen none in person.

Madam Mayor, I move to approve the request from Richard Germa and Alexandra Vial to rezone 1182 Nelson Drive as presented by State.

Looks like it's an arrangement that North Propregnors agreed to.

I was going to say, yeah, I followed along with it and it seemed like everybody went through a due process.

The best part is the neighbors get along.

We'll just get another use of R8 for setback.

Council Member Fleming.

Aye.

Council Member Jones.

Aye.

Nice to meet you, Dent.

Aye.

Council Member Robinson.

Aye.

Mayor Reed.

Aye.

Madam Mayor, I am presenting 6F alone, but it is connected with the other projects, agenda items that are coming after this.

Being that this is a zoning ordinance amendment, it impacts all B2 properties throughout the city.

We did want to separate it from the other agenda items.

The item I have before you is a zoning where it's meant to section 10391 subsection 9.

This is part of the B2 zoning district.

This is specifically for the special use permit section of the code and this is for amending text with regard to having reduced rear inside yard setbacks.

So it's a little convoluted to understand exactly how this works, but I'll do my best effort here.

So under the existing code,

What you have is a situation where you have, if you have a B2 property, typically your side and rear of your setbacks, you start at 10 feet, you have a 10 foot setback.

However, if you are a B2 property and you are adjacent to a residential zoning classification, you then jump to a 30 foot setback.

If you have a property that's B2, you're adjacent to residential and you have a building that you plan to build that's taller than 35 feet for every foot above 35 feet.

You have an additional foot of setback for every foot.

In the case that the applicants I will talk about in the next few agenda items, they have a situation where they are going to rezone or proposing to rezone to the B2 zoning district and with that they are planning a tall residential structure and being that it's a B2 zoning classification, they would not be able to meet the setback regulations that are currently in effect.

So what they're proposing is to amend the special use permit section of the district, under the B2 district, to then allow for reduced side and rear yard setbacks.

So, all that text there I just described.

The current ability today, if you have a B2 property, is you can only apply for a reduction in your side and rear yard setback if your adjacent property is zoned B2 or M1.

The special use permit language that is to be amended is shown here.

This is to strike much of the language and just make it a very succinct statement.

Reduction in the required site and rear yard setback.

That is the special use permit that they hope to create.

If you pay particular attention to the minutes at the Planning Commission meeting, we got stuck on some of the language during the Planning Commission meeting about what the statement should actually say, because it was originally written to say something to the effect of, actually I have it here,

Dany Fleming

make amendments after the fact, after they voted to recommend approval of it to come up with what we thought was the best language.

So we just eliminated it all together, just said a reduction and the required side-and-arrow setback.

Very clear, very succinct.

You can just request for whatever it is, case by case basis, because it's a special use permit.

So that is the language that is before you, and again, we supported it, and Plain and Commission also unanimously recommended a favor of it.

to open this item up for public hearing.

Evening Madam Mayor, Members of Council, Todd Ray with Clark & Bradshaw, while you're here in downtown and also a city resident.

This issue came as come up a couple times now since Council adopted the opportunity to request a multi-family special use within a B2 zoning district.

Often times, these commercial districts are adjacent to student housing, which is also a dense development.

by requiring the enhanced setbacks from all residential districts, it sort of created a poison pill for that multifamily opportunity in a lot of cases where you're next to high density residential uses where it wouldn't be objectionable.

This preserves staff and council's opportunity

If you have a tall building next to a single-family residential neighborhood or something that's much less dense than student housing, then it's controlled on a case-by-case basis.

But this simply allows a more discretionary approach by the city where you have commercial, multifamily ordering residential to take a look at, hey, what is the actual residential district next to where?

What is the topography?

of those sites to make informed case-by-case decisions.

Thank you.

Anyone else?

We're now live with City Council.

Please state your name and address.

Send your five minutes.

Madam Mayor, Panagioti Senakuras, City Resident.

This application appears to be addressing this question of growth.

The ability not to be lean in on setbacks in R1, where it's exclusionary so people have to maintain costly lawns, but in B2 so people can build densities

The question that I would ask, building on the discussion that we had earlier, could Madam Mayor or anyone tell me why Harrisonburg needs to grow?

Now, part of this is the imperative of capitalism.

Capitalism doesn't like a steady state, but there's a reason that it can't grow in the knowledge and meaning dimension.

There is a fact of life, which is that people like to stay in their custom business.

So people who are builders like to stay in the building business.

People who are engineers like to stay in the engineering building business.

So there is a pressure to grow in that sense that developers need growth so that they can keep making money in the carbon domain.

But what, from anybody on the dice on this week,

I think about this in the imperative for Harrisonburg to grow beyond its water, beyond its green space.

And do keep in mind that when we grow in this way, we are sprawl.

If you drive to DC, you will see that we are sprawl from DC.

And we've talked before about putting some market rate developments on the interchanges.

Well, those are bedrooms for Charlottesville.

We are sprawl for Charlottesville or the D.C.

area.

Thank you.

There's a robust discussion in the Planning Commission.

It was the time it all convoluted to follow the zero, either up to or down to zero.

Just to be clear, this is an amendment to the

Yes ma'am, six G, H and I, I will present together three votes.

We are shifting gears to a rezoning, and then two special use permits.

The rezoning is from R5 conditional to B2 conditional, and then two special use permits.

One is to allow multi-family mixed use units in the B2 district, and the third special use permit is the special use permit and the ability you just granted in the last agenda item, which is to allow for reduced side and rear-row setbacks.

So let's get into the details here.

The site is known casually as 865 East.

865 is the address of the property.

It's the taller building that sits at the top of Upper Public Road.

It is a mixed-use building, has non-residential on the first floor, and 90, the number's been escaping, 90, I think, 6.

96 dwelling units, predominantly, I believe, made up of student housing.

and they are requesting to rezone the site that I've bounded here which is a little over five acres in the area to the B2 district and they have offered up several proffers to go along with that with the two special use permits.

Nasser Alsaadun

Vista at Forest Hill, I believe is what the name of the project is called.

A similar project to what this is, which is a mixed-use building, non-residential on the first floor, multi-story, multi-family, and that was approved just a few months ago.

And then more student housing across Port Republic Road, which is actually his own R4, so it's the darker green color there.

Land Use Guide.

So what do we anticipate?

What do we plan for in the future?

Really what you're seeing here is just a great deal of higher density.

So this is all high density residential.

High density residential, of course, is relative.

It's 24 units per acre is what we anticipate.

And then you're capturing the mixed use there across the way, which is also in this particular case, looking at anticipating 24 units per acre.

Interestingly though, the B-2 district does allow more than 24 units an acre.

So it was designed that way.

It allows up to 38 units per acre.

So if you apply for a specialty sprint in the B-2 district, the density calculations allow for you to construct up to 38 units per acre.

Just to be clear.

and the aerial photograph.

So what maybe many folks don't know is that there's a large parking lot to the back of that property.

It snakes down the hill to accommodate what the zoning ordinance requires to accommodate if every student maybe who had a vehicle that resided there may necessitate that large parking lot.

But they believe they have the ability to reduce their parking demand by rezoning to the B-2 district because the Dany requires one parking space per unit.

And they believe that their

They're demographic that they market to would be able to sustain themselves in that situation.

So the situation here is that they plan to do in addition to the 865 building to the back of the property where they would build the building on piers and allow for passenger vehicles as it goes through the parking facility down the hill.

Photograph of 865, taken from Devon Lane.

You can see the non-residential uses there and then the multi-family building.

So this was a site that was rezoned back at the end of 2007, first part of 2008, when the applicant proffered many different proffers.

I'm not going to read through all of them, but it was very specific to the site about the accommodations they would be providing about what the building would look like, how much non-residential would be allowed in the building.

and at that time they were planning that the building would be no taller than 91 feet in height and would incorporate no more than 100 residential units and no more than 16,000 square feet of commercial space.

What they built in reality was a building that was about 20 feet

Lesser in height, 70.2 feet in height with 96 dwelling units and a little over 15,000 square feet of commercial space.

And that's what is out there today.

So the plan is to build a breezeway that connects a building to an addition and would go down the hillside here and a respective view from here.

So you have your existing building on the left, the addition that's planned to the right with the ability to pass through the building both under the breezeway and then circling down through under the building.

What they're hoping to do if all applications are approved is make way for 60 additional multifamily dwelling units and exposure wise it would be an exposure of about a seven to eight story building.

but by the way that we define height it would be permissible and would be no taller in elevation as they've proffered in the existing building that's on site today so let's get into some more of the details.

This is taken from the upper level parking lot looking south, southeast really and you can just sort of begin to see the snaking of the property of the parking lot as it goes down the hill and it is a relatively steep grade as it goes down that hill.

If you recall, when one applies for a special use permit for this type of mixed use multi-family building in the special use permit, it requires them to submit a plan of development.

So the plan of development I'm going to show you this evening is what they would be held to.

We use that to make sure that they're building the building in the place they said they were building it, how many stories it would have, and a couple other details that we would use to make sure it is conforming to the engineer comprehensive site plan design, zoning, and subdivision regulations.

They've also provided what's sort of casually referred to as self-imposed conditions There's details that I'll talk to that are too hard to see in this image But all the details that they've stated on the plan become part of the development plan as they progress through the design phases

So just zooming in on where the addition is to be planned, so they're going to build that breezeway off of the existing building, the footprint here just showing.

Those orange dots are representing where piers would be situated.

They do anticipate the loss of about 14 parking spaces with that, but you would still be able to park underneath of the structure, and this does create the ability for vehicles to then sort of meander through the building and pass through that space.

So just to make sure that you will still be able to get through the lower reaches of the property.

R. Reed,

Retail stores, convenience stores, personal service establishments, things like nail salons, hair salons Restaurants that do not have drive-thrus in business and professional offices So they're basically maintaining their abilities they have today All of those permissions that are granted in the B2 district would not be permitted unless they're in the uses that I just went over So if there are uses that are permitted in B2 that are not those, they would not be permitted on this site Things like automotive repair, auto sales, things like that

The second proffer is that any special use permit that is applied could be approved by City Council.

They will have in total, and this includes the existing building and the addition, no more than 160 total units and no more than 470 bedrooms.

So it means that it can kind of flip-flop if they see opportunities to make renovations in the existing building to change the makeup of the units.

They can do that, but they just can't exceed the maximums that are stated here among the two buildings.

Non-residential uses would be limited to the ground floor of the existing building.

They do not plan to have any non-residential buildings, aside from miscellaneous ancillary uses that are provided in a residential facility.

So no true commercial establishments would be in the addition.

For those that were around during the time, during the original rezoning back in 2007, there was quite a bit of discussion about some off-street parking spaces that would be reserved for Devonshire Town Homes, which is across Devon Lane.

They're maintaining that proffer that they provided back in that time period.

So there's 10 parking spaces on the subject site that is reserved for the folks that live across the street.

They're going to maintain those parking spaces.

The sixth proffer here is that basically the addition will look similar to and be made up of a similar exterior finish as the existing building.

They're providing infrastructure improvements, which I'll get to here in just a minute.

They're going to grant a 20 foot access easement at the foot of the hill and we had envisioned opportunities in the future.

This is not part of any particular plan but we talked with them about our ideas about providing shared use paths throughout the student housing community and it could be in the location at the bottom of this hill and they willingly said it will help out and would proffer a 20 foot access easement if that were ever to come to fruition and we very much appreciate that.

They proffered some details about sight lighting, about downlighting, maximum height of freestanding signs.

So they proffered that they would have no taller than an 18 foot sign on Porter Public Road and an 8 foot sign on Devon Lane if they erected a sign on Devon Lane.

This is because the B-2 district allows for 35 foot in height signs, so recognizing that this is a relatively major thoroughfare and corridor and what we're looking for from a streetscape perspective, they recognize the concerns we had way back in 2007, 2008, and will maintain those under the current proffers.

They have stated that the addition would not be any taller than the existing elevation of the existing building.

And I want to go over some of the details about some of those proffers.

So first and foremost, there's 10 parking spaces.

That's where those 10 parking spaces are that are reserved for Demonshire Town Homes.

They would maintain those.

That easement I referred to at the bottom of the hill, shown in the green there at the bottom.

And then the infrastructure improvements are in Proffer 7.

They're very detailed in your staff report.

Zooming in here in this section, the improvements we're talking about here, first and foremost is

If you've ever walked in this area, you'll recognize that the public sidewalk on Devon Lane parallels the street, but then it stops here and enters the private property and then comes back out onto the private street.

I can't speak to the specifics of why that was the case in design that way, but we had suggested for them to make the improvements to maintain that sidewalk extension through there so they would make those improvements.

They're also going to dedicate right away to the city, so that slip lane that exists out there today actually crosses private property and they're going to dedicate that to the city.

and then the crosswalk that's here, they're proffering improvements that staff had suggested they make with regard to public right of way accessibility guidelines and hoping that the improvements can be made so they proffered that as well, can be very much appreciative of those.

The conditions that are stated on the plan of development, they're five I believe, I've summarized them here, basically these are just stating

and Dr.

The actual physical location we've, I'll speak to you here in a little bit about flexibility about where they can position the building, but the general location would not be exceeding or the general size would not be exceeding the dimensions that are shown on the plan development.

One thing you'll note out there is that there are no dumpsters outside that all refuse facilities will be inside of the building so that everything is collected on the inside, not exposed on the outside.

That will be part of it.

They put a lot of

perspective and detail back in 2007-2008 about the control of security in the building because it's both residential and non-residential and they want to maintain that and let the folks know that they're going to ensure detail with security features is maintained with the existing facility and for the addition.

And the last is speaking to providing at least two level two electric vehicle charging stations on the property as part of this addition to the project.

I'll also speak to the fact that there was, I think, somebody brought up solar on top of the buildings.

The current facility has outdoor communal space on the roof of the existing building, and they may provide the same on the second day.

I don't think they've gotten to those details yet, but I think they wanted to leave the flexibility arrangement, so if they want to have sort of a communal space on top of the addition, they could do so as well.

So when we look at this from a long-term planning perspective, it is meeting some of the ideals that we're pushing for this area of the city, higher density, more units, placing pressure on students to utilize the bus system, to utilize the bicyclone pedestrian facilities.

We are very close to the JMU campus, so we recognize that this is a location that is ideal to build in some of our paved parking areas and to provide more residential living facilities for students closer to the campus so that they can be

We recommended in favor of all three applications, the rezoning, especially used permit to allow for the facility to take place in multi-family building and for the reduced setbacks.

There are two conditions that staff recommended and playing commission also agreed to.

The first condition is for the special use permit to allow for the multifamily mixed use building and that is just to adhere to the conditions that they stated on to the plan of development.

So very straightforward there.

And then the second is associated with the reduction of required side and rear yard setback.

He recommended the condition to not be just completely open-ended that they could just have whatever reduced setback they wanted, but that the existing building and the planned building addition shall be located as shown on the development plan, but with some flexibilities to have a 10-foot in either direction ability to deviate from that exact location on the property.

And Planning Commission also recommended that to you as well.

Staff and Planning Commission gave you recommendations for when it was unanimous seven to zero for all three applications with conditions.

Thank you.

Maybe this is more a question for the applicant.

I remember seeing that side view where you show that the peer is more or less that cars can, and you also showed how they can meander back and forth.

Well, yeah, this was from the applicant.

It seemed that they were saying there was so little parking that was actually being used because it's primarily international students who don't have cars, or that's part of the market that they were talking about.

And I said, well, why do you even need the piers?

You could build it all the way down and reduce the parking even more.

Again, that's up to the applicant, but I think they were making

I hope the best use in maintaining as much parking as they could and my comment would be that even that might not be needed.

But I guess my question for you is, are we approving it as is?

Yeah, in fact, what they will end up with is more parking that's required anyway.

Because if they get rezoned to the B2 district, the B2 allows one parking space per dwelling unit.

R. R.

and they ultimately end up planning to just have 329 because they're losing some of the addition, but they could if they wanted to remove parking.

There's an expense to that of course, but if you're asking could they build more units over the parking they would have to get special permission to do that.

They're only asking for the 60 addition and that's what the plan development would regulate.

All right, we will open this item, so we're doing G-H-N-I, yes, for public hearing.

Madam Mayor, thank you again for letting me present fellow counselors and city staff.

I'm Todd Ray, a land use attorney with an office here in downtown Harrisonburg.

I'm presenting on behalf of the applicant 865 East LLC.

Also here with me this evening are Ed Blackwell with Blackwell AES Engineering.

and Dane Hammond and other members of Hammond Asset Management on behalf of the owner applicant.

We are the same entitlement team who presented the original 65 yeast for zoning approvals back in 2007.

We're proud to remain associated with this groundbreaking project, which was one of the first R5 Zonings approved in the city of Harrisonburg.

Harkening back to Councilwoman Robinson's comments about how is the spaghetti made before we get to City Council and I think it's instructive for the public and for the Council to know.

R. R.

Bigger issues are all that remain for council and I can say your city staff is very detail oriented and skilled in those review processes.

The location of 865 East is tailor made to utilize the city's new B2 multifamily special use category.

The site lies in a high density residential area designated under the city comprehensive plan.

And the applicant seeks to provide additional housing density.

The site contains underutilized tiered surface parking areas located behind the existing building

to answer Vice Mayor Dent's question.

The way those things are tiered, we have to be able to drive through around the buildings to get to the lower levels so we can't fill in those lower levels even if we didn't need the parking for circulation purposes.

And that's based on 10 years of objective parking permit data showing that the site's clearly over parked for the residents who live there.

The request that approvals would allow for the expansion

of this successful mixed-use property by more efficiently utilizing that excess parking area.

The property is located within easy walking distance to James Madison University.

It already contains an HDPT transit stop and multiple on-site restaurants and other amenities.

The rezoning request would add a building addition, complementary to the existing structure connected by an elevated breezeway,

High enough so that all emergency vehicles can get under that breezeway to access all parts of the property and behind the building.

It provides the same level of controlled safety, access, and security to its residents as the current building.

If you go in, you're inside the breezeway, you can move back and forth between the two buildings without going back outside.

Given its proximity to the university, it also has a history of housing students who do not have cars or require parking.

It works with the existing topography as it slopes down to the south and west so that the elevation is at the same top level height from the Devon Lane and Port Road corridor.

We had that checked out.

There's a memoranda from your zoning administrator in the file stating that the proposed addition meets city code height requirements.

In addition, the addition would be built over and retain the majority of existing parking spaces.

Building above existing underutilized parking, surface parking, accommodates additional residents on site without adding to gross impervious area and additional storm water runoff.

That impervious area that's now surface parking will be impervious area of the roof, but the parking won't get the rain on it.

So it's a net zero adding to impervious area.

some questions came up before planning commission but the owner has arrangements for auxiliary parking with shuttle service and alternative access points to its lower parking tiers during its construction phase so that part has also been thought through and thought out.

As part of the pre-application process and staff comment process the applicant has provided

R. R.

of an already developed parcel through additional constructed improvements using in-place infrastructure.

The city isn't going to have to spend any money or bring any other amenities or services to the site that aren't already in place.

It's an efficient use of the land.

We greatly appreciate Council's positive consideration of the rezoning, special use and ordinance amendment requests.

We've worked closely with staff to iron out the details

and Development Conditions were pleased to have received their positive recommendation along with Planning Commission's unanimous recommendation for approval.

We're happy to answer or address questions that the Council or public may have this evening.

I've tried to anticipate and answer a few.

I'm the Ortizianocuros City Resident.

Madam Mayor, growth.

I still have that growth question on my mind.

for the public to understand what the impact of the growth is.

Student housing is JMU planning to grow?

If it is, it would be good to know if it's not what student housing will be cast off to fill this new student housing.

Also a note on parking minimums.

When housing is cast off by students who walk or ride bikes,

and is filled by people who work in jobs where they have no choice but to drive a car, they need to park.

And when the parking has been reduced so that the building can be used more profitably, more intensively by the developer, the parking spills over into public space, which is just fine for the right libertarians behind some of the so-called urbanist fads

that they use to pose as progressives a trick that they learned from the National Right to Work Committee.

So, again, growth, Madam Mayor, is this something that is being driven by growth at JMU, a research to university that is looking to attract faculty members to underpaid jobs because of the wonderful built natural and social amenities

And for our we can move the mine and extract the carbon dimension of Harrisonburg to keep people in accustomed conditions of living well.

to rezone 865 Port Republic where other guys presented.

Second that.

I just put student housing close to the university.

I like the efficient use of space and reduction of parking because it's not needed while still maintaining the mobility through the parking as I just got the explanation for that.

It was a good thing.

It was a necessary thing.

In theory I get where they were thinking.

That was the requirements back then.

I'm not with the current structure of it, I guess.

Did that cover all of them?

That's just the first one.

I like how the developers have learned how to use that space adequately so that we can maximize all that space up there to fill with body.

So I like that.

for the soul of animals, but it would be a disservice in this spot because the roof of the views is nice.

It's truly an amenity.

And it was the only way to really get the view until they built the hotel, but you still got a different angle from here.

So still, it's truly an amenity for Harrisonburg.

Yeah, I wanted to go see that because I remember the view from Dave's to Urna that's now in a better place.

Even higher than that.

You just have to get access there a second time.

Roll call, please, ma'am.

Councilmember Fleming.

Aye.

Councilmember Jazz.

Aye.

Vice Mayor Dent.

Aye.

Councilmember Robinson.

Mayor Reed.

Aye.

Madam Mayor, I move that we approve the request from 865 East LLC for a special use permit to allow multiple family and or mixed use buildings at 865 Port Republic Road as presented.

Second.

Any more discussion?

Alright, our next item is a special use permit at 660 Walnut Lane, a site that is 16,486 square feet in size and the request is to allow for a boarding and a rooming house which allow me to speak to the boarding and rooming house then I'll talk to the details of the site and then a brief history of the application here.

So a boarding and rooming house is a single detached dwelling where the property owner or property lessy or operator resides on premises and wherefore compensation by pre-arrangement for definite periods.

Lodging into meals provided for three persons to a maximum of ten persons.

That's the first sentence of the definition.

It goes on to state many other things but also speaks to required having a yearly inspection.

That inspection must take place during the month of October.

Dany Fleming

of Yearly Inspection, the application, especially if it becomes null and void.

So if we ever had one of those that comes up and they do not get their Yearly Inspection, which we have had one before, that application does become null and void.

Site specifics, the property is zoned R3.

In fact, there are only two zoning districts where you can apply for a boarding and rooming house special use permit.

It is the R3 and EM1 zone, so this property is zoned R3.

They have that ability.

All properties are zoned R3 in the general vicinity.

You're just picking up some M1 property over there off the Chesapeake Avenue, which is an M1 general industrial district.

So this big, large, white swath here is public street right way of the Martin Luther King to your way bridge.

The long-term plans for this area of the city is mixed use so we're really on sort of like the edge of our downtown area where we're pushing for more mixed use development, higher densities but we have extended plans for more mixed use even down the South Main Street corridor and that extends way down to about Miller Circle on the South Main Street corridor there but this is I think for a lot of people where they think about the downtown is really at that MLK junior way

in the bridge there as you begin to enter into the downtown space.

So this property does fall within that area.

Mixed use, of course, carries the anticipation that we could have residential, non-residential uses and densities, especially in our downtown, are very high.

There's no cap in B1.

These properties are not in B1, so we anticipate densities of up to 24 units per acre.

And then the aerial photograph of this site, if you're familiar with this area, probably some streets back here, Kyle Street, Walnut Lane, that a lot of folks may never drive on because they're dead end streets off the beaten path and used to extend really to the south before the MLK extension back when it was Kidger Avenue.

So some old streets back there that folks may not ever drive on.

So this front's on Walnut Lane.

and a photograph of the site taken from Walnut Lane on the side parking area.

So let's speak to why we're here this evening.

So this began back in August when the Harrisonburg Police Department had informed our office of some potential unsanitary conditions at the residence.

They had responded for a call of service and once they arrived the site had witnessed some conditions of the site that warranted them to give us a call.

Our inspectors went out to the site, did the proper investigation and did determine

and Dean posted the property unfit for human habitation by the building inspections division.

As our folks began to investigate and acquire further about the site itself,

We learned that there was a potential of an overoccupancy, being that there were, were informed that 15 unrelated individuals had been residing in the unit, and we had gone through questions asking that, again, if they could show, is there any nonconformance to the property?

Can you prove nonconformance?

You had 15.

Dany.

Association's with the folks that were residing in there.

They would allow people to come and go in different semesters to reside in the dwelling unit because there are 15 bedrooms and six bathrooms.

I think there's some quotes in the minutes that they recognized that 10 was their cap, but there was some overoccupancy that wasn't occurring.

So with the fact that there were, we had believed there was overoccupancy and that they had exceeded their non-conforming ability, if there was a non-conforming ability in the first place, the applicant asked, what solutions are there?

How can I at least get back to what I thought was my ability, which was 10?

And that is to apply for the special use permits.

It's really their only opportunity through this means is to get themselves back to 10.

In September, we did give them notice of a separate issue, which was that we believed that there was evidence to show that there was a fraternity operating on site.

Since that time, this violation has been rectified by the applicant, and we believe that this issue is a non-issue anymore, and we have closed that case.

The following month, in October, we did hold the Planning Commission public hearing for the Special Use Permit where there was a recommendation of denial by Planning Commission, which was of course also upon recommendation of staff, a recommendation of denial.

They recommended at five to two, five to two being that the two commissioners that voted in opposition to deny, so I'm presuming they were potentially were in favor, were Vice Chair Byrd and Commissioner Washington.

They had planned to be here for the same hearing we're having tonight back in November.

They postponed it again in December, which brings us to our January hearing.

During the month of November, we then formally issued them a notice of violation for overoccupancy on the property.

and then just last month in December they had also submitted an appeal to the zoning administrative decision that the property is over occupied.

Now that is an entirely separate matter.

The matter that's being discussed here this evening is whether or not you wish to approve a special use permit to give them a boarding and rooming house approval.

If you do give them the approval, presumably the BZA case would be a non-issue and they would, you know,

Staff in our evaluation as we pointed out to Planning Commission also identified that if the applicant was able to prove that they had non-conformance of 10 individuals

It still becomes an issue because if they had the nonconformancy, they actually violated the nonconformancy by going above 10 by having 15, and when you do the violation of the nonconformancy, you lose your nonconformancy.

quoting from section 10321 subsection A states, whenever a non-conforming use is enlarged or extended beyond the size, character, or intensity of the use as it existed, at the time that it became non-conforming, the non-conforming status of such shall terminate and become lull and null and void.

It goes on to state some other matters, and one of the last clauses states that any quantifiable increase shall constitute an enlargement or extension beyond size, character, intensity, and that includes when you have dwelling units or unrelated occupants increasing in number, basically.

So last part I was not quoting, but it's in part of that section of the code.

Staff believes that while the warming and boarding house can provide at times an affordable and efficient form of housing, given some of the known irresponsible upkeep of the building with the unfit for human habitation, hosting and the reported police department calls for service, staff does not believe it is in the best interest of the community or for the long term plans for the city to approve a boarding and rooming house at this location.

Please note that we asked for some reports from the police department about calls for service between July 31st of 2021 through May 1st of 2023 just to get a handle on any potential issues that they had identified there and there were a number of service requests that were related to the property for noise, alcohol, suspicious activity, and extra patrols.

Given these situations, we believe that is in the best interest of the community to deny the special use permit.

Further, please know that if the property owner is interested in maintaining some level of higher occupancy for the property, they have the by-right ability today to convert the existing single structure into a duplex.

They would have to make physical improvements to the building itself to convert it to a duplex.

And because it's Zone 3, they could have four individuals in each unit.

But they would have to legally convert it to a duplex.

So that could get them to 8 if they wanted to go to that additional step by converting the building.

My last point here before I close for questions is that if you approve the special use permit for a boarding and rooming house, know that when it is an official boarding and rooming house, the building code requires the building to be sprinkled.

And while they may have operated with 10 and maybe even 15 at times without a sprinkled building, when it changes a use category, this particular use category requires the sprinkled building.

So they would have to make that improvement if the special use permit is approved.

You mentioned some of the violations, the calls, business calls on this particular building.

I think the owner owns a number of other buildings around the city, some through that neighborhood.

Do you know if any of those other buildings also had received calls?

I do not know any of those.

Okay.

I'd like to address just a few comments from what we just heard to provide some additional context.

And first, to say that what your decision will hopefully turn on tonight is what is the best use of the property given its proximity to James Madison University.

It's location among other dwellings around it.

It's size in Harrisonburg's admitted housing shortage.

This property is located directly behind Main Street.

You can see from the aerial photos.

I don't know if we can go back here.

These are all, it's surrounded by student housing and apartments in the back and you've got single family dwellings in front but it is all student housing located very close to the university and

to the Planning Commission's discussion, which I'm sure is in your staff report, and if you have the opportunity to watch or participate in the Planning Commission's hearing on this, there were three main issues that arose.

One was that the landowners should have known better that they didn't have what they thought they had.

You can see from the excerpt in page 4 that Mr. Fletcher actually talks about how in the past, rooming and boarding houses, I'm just reading directly from the excerpt, rooming and boarding houses used to be by right, use in many of our zoning districts, there were no special permissions that were needed, you just basically

R. R.

were explicitly told that upon the request of being able to have ten people in John Byrd was the director of community development at that point in the 80s when they purchased the property that they were good to go and that was what they'd been operating on for more than 30 years.

And the other two pieces that the

R. R.

The Smiths specifically structured their leases to begin in June 1st and to end May 20th.

And that's because they go out of town in the summer, and so once the students are settled in, they're able to leave and come back in late August.

And what happened was that there was an overlap, I guess during that summer, once they had left,

The tenants at the time allowed their friends to store all of their furniture inside the main, the shared spaces of this property.

And then because it was the summer, many of the students had left food in the fridge and so if you walked in, it wouldn't have smelled nice and there would have been furniture, clothing, and personal belongings for people who didn't live there.

scattered all over the place.

And that's what inevitably cost the Smiths to receive the letter of Inhabitability listing more than 20 items that needed to be addressed, all of which were addressed within one week's time.

And so while that was a major part of the commission's decision, the second piece was that the reported phone calls to the police.

at no point were any of those phone calls for whatever reason they were made communicated to the Smiths.

They were never informed of those communications.

And I can say that almost 20 years ago I'm uniquely situated because I rented this

The house directly in front of this building for two years from this miss and I would see Craig there weekly cutting the grass as we heard testimony in the planning commission's meeting and checking to make sure that everything was okay and always be during the day.

I haven't seen the list of police communications from the report from the period checked but I would imagine that many of those were

They also live pretty close to the building, so if they were to hear certain things, they would be able to address it.

And so to that end, once they were made aware of specific issues, they made these amendments, and so specifically I can read from the

latest lease that includes provisions about not being a nuisance or disturbing other tenants or neighbors and submitting to the landlord in writing within one week of occupancy any concerns regarding the condition of the premises and then finally an addendum that specifically states that no fraternity sponsored events will be held at the residence and then imposing a fine of $500 that will be

Dany Fleming

We're residing there.

They never took additional rent money.

In fact, they only accepted a single check from all 10 tenants.

And so to the extent that the special use permit or the non-conforming use that they held was violated, it was without their knowledge and understanding and as soon as they did learn,

They have done great diligence

There are currently ten on the lease and so if you voted to deny the special use permit then that would mean that six would have to relocate and we already know that finding affordable housing is difficult and more than likely they would have to relocate somewhere they would be able to be within walking distance of the university.

and so for these specific reasons we would request that we would think about what the best use is and I guess lastly to convert this 16 bedroom property into a duplex is completely cost prohibitive.

You would have to put a fireproof wall within dividing the two portions and why aren't all homes built with fireproof walls because it's so costly and cost prohibitive.

If you were to grant the special use permit and allow 10 tenants to reside in this property, the Smiths would comply with the ordinance get a business license, have a sprinkler system retrofitted, and comply with the yearly inspections as needed.

They're also willing to go above and beyond and comply with any additional

So a couple of things that are problematic for me.

It is still a fraternity house.

All of the folks are living there.

So you have a 16 bedroom house, but you have 10 tenants.

Well, the house that I lived in had additional rooms that weren't necessarily bedrooms, but in this case, and I toured the house in November, many of these rooms, we wouldn't necessarily, I said, well why don't you just lock the door, but a lot of these spaces you can use for storage, a lot of these spaces you can use for study spaces that aren't necessarily for students, but I think what you're getting at is ultimately how can you trust that only 10 students will be living there, and I think that if that were to be a condition that

and I know in our discussions we've talked about we don't want to put additional... It was a condition that right.

R. R.

to their knowledge that they only ever rented a 210 and it was upon the circumstances of the police being called based on a burglary that they were able to discover that all of the mess that was inside and then interviewing, discover that additional tenants were living there.

But it's hard for me to believe that you just now found that out, because this, if

If this is a fraternity house, which it is a fraternity house, then we know that in order for you to stay in compliance with what is supposed to be done at this house, there has to be checks.

So are you telling me that you lease it out and then you're never visiting it?

You never check on your own property?

How do you not check on your own property because how did it get to the point where it's the police are called and then you have additional five people living there, you've got furniture there and you don't know what's going on in your own property?

So, as I mentioned, the Smiths go to the Outer Banks in the summer and they come back.

So those are the only time that they're gone and that's when this happened.

It was a transition over the summer where the tenants who were living there allowed their friends who lived up at the street to put all of their furniture in their home.

before their lease started because they didn't have the keys yet and it was just the perfect storm of timing because there were a few people actually staying there at the time and so the Smiths didn't return until after all of this had happened in mid to late August so this would have happened in early August at the very end of the summer right before they returned but other than that

I can say that when I was a tenant, I would see him once a week and we heard from the Planning Commission that he would often show up at this particular residence once a week, whether it be to cut the grass or to inspect the outside to make sure that everything was okay.

But if you're requesting or suggesting that the Smiths enter the building

Periodically to do periodic checks on a regular prescribed basis.

Right, so for me, if you can't handle what you have properly, which is 10, then maybe it needs to be cut back to a duplex where it's less tensed.

Because you haven't handled what you've had, right?

That's my opinion.

So first I would say that the costs to convert it to a duplex are so prohibitive that the smith might be more inclined to sell it, but it would probably sit, make it, because no one, it would be very difficult to market this property given its location and given its size and the cost to change it.

And so you would have to either have only four unrelated individuals live in a 16 bedroom

I didn't want to correct you.

This is actually a neighborhood with students.

We have a bus that stops and we have a number of them.

The front of that house, they were there kind of on this, you know, kind of across the street playing baseball.

But, you know, most of those apartments back there, those are family units and those are folks that's not, you know, there's students in the kind of, either the old fraternity houses or the

I guess fraternity houses, we don't call fraternity houses in front of them.

There are students there, but just west of that, those are families and students.

I mean we have many kids there.

There are keysters or district there and bus stops there.

So the kids are there.

It's interesting when you talk about

I've been there every week since this first came up and there's broken glass on all sides of the house and it's more now than was the first time I was there

It's hard to me to think how you would take care of the lawn there with the broken glass.

It isn't just students there, because it's part of my point.

May I address quickly the glass comment, because it's specifically listed in the lease that the tenants are responsible for repairing the broken glass, and they agree to that.

It's the holidays, if you thought students were gone, they're not even there, so it should be perfectly clean, actually, because no one's been there since the first week of December, until this week.

But, so you're telling me, I'm, you know, you can ask anybody, if it makes money, Christiana isn't going to vote for her.

So it's real hard for me to vote against people that's trying to make money because my mom had a small business and I just don't believe it.

I believe in being pro-business no matter what it is.

Unless you're hurting people or you're really hurting them when I've been here.

You're really just not paying attention.

It's a ladder.

So you're telling me you agreed to tent thinking, okay you gotta either sit down or get in the

I don't like people walking slow like that, Chief.

Come on, help me out.

But, you mean to tell me that you thought 10 people were paying the rent and you're collecting the rent for 10 people?

I don't think the report was ever that there were 15 consistently living there.

So I'm not looking for the reason why.

I'm just saying.

So like a third more of the people that should be there were physically sleeping

in a building that you own.

And like, we're not in Brooklyn, right?

We're not even in Charlotte, North Carolina, right?

17.4 square miles.

It ain't that big.

So, I mean, you can come check on your stuff, you know what I mean?

So, I'm really struggling with how you miss that because you're charging people to stay there.

So, this is the very basic premise of just

Landlord Chip would be if I owned this building then I must collect from everyone here.

I mean, I think that that would be... I mean, from the discussion and from what we heard, if you kind of put all that together, it implies that there's no oversight.

Not only were there more than ten people living there.

I don't know who knew when, how long they stayed, if they had the furniture there.

But we also have consistent reports from over a year from the police department for various violations, whether it was noise or parties or what have you.

So it's not just one problem.

Then you have, you know, the, and what is it?

We're talking about just that home.

We're talking about the community.

Why is it a community who have kids roaming around?

I don't know who broke the glass.

There's a possibility that's a safety issue.

It just feels to me like there's a lack of oversight here.

And non-conforming of 10

That's a privilege.

And then when you don't conform to the rules and regulations of the city, then you lose that.

It's not our problem that is cost-prohibited that you can't switch it to a good place.

It's not our problem that, well, what are we going to do with the other six bedrooms if you say yes and we have ten living there?

Like, you've had an opportunity to deal with all of that, not too specifically.

The Lamors, the owners, have had the opportunity to deal with that and they have not dealt with that in a very good manner.

It means that someone could move into your property, unbeknownst to you, and live there.

But there's extra bathrooms.

We know where it's gonna be.

So I'm fascinated that

But I said we're paying somebody to make sure no one walks in here because I'm paying attention to you, right?

But if we weren't paying her, I'd be watching my door.

Like I don't like this door right here because I can't watch it.

Like I'm not being facetious right now.

So I don't hit the basic premises.

I'm going to make money paying people.

I'm charging people for entering this door and sleeping here if I can't keep count of who's sleeping here.

How can you run the business?

That's the basis of the business.

I was hoping that everything else would talk about is like... I think your argument also cuts the other way in the sense that if the Smiths were in the game to just be making money and skirting city ordinances,

R. Reed

a revolving door of social guests.

It's very difficult, even if you were to stop by and do a head count, to determine who is sleeping there unless you do it in the middle of the night.

And so I appreciate that, you know, pointing out the difficulties of trying to understand the logic behind not knowing who's renting or sleeping in the buildings you own, but absent doing surprise checks in the middle of the night.

It's difficult under the specific circumstances of this property

Dany Fleming

Sometimes something like this may happen.

I'll talk about myself.

I know people who live in housing or apartments and there might have somebody staying there that ain't supposed to be on the lease.

When the landlord just checks, or whatever, you gotta get him out the house, cause they're not on the lease.

There's no one in the house.

And they were so careless about it that they didn't even think to empty the refrigerator and put a carton of bacon soda in for a dollar.

At that time, we knew that this mess would be out of town.

No one's going to say, hey, let's bring more stuff to the house.

Let's get checked.

We're going to take the stuff out of the houses that are getting checked

and put it in the one that's not.

I'm just jumping out there.

I'm no Sherlock Holmes.

I appreciate that, but they did it at a time specifically where they knew.

Well, it actually doesn't, so the testimony from, or at least the discussion in Planning Commission, the students seemed to say that this was something that generally happened.

You know, the students come in, you know,

R. Reed

I'm not disagreeing with you.

We had no particular evidence missing but they were suggesting was that routinely it was over the 10.

My statement about the timing of the summer when they weren't there was specifically related to when they moved in all of the furniture and left all the food there at a time when there wouldn't be any checks whether it be inside or outside of the building.

Can I ask a question?

What's the rent?

How many do you have?

Seven fifty.

Seven fifty?

Seven fifty per month.

Seven fifty per month.

Seven fifty per month.

I'm just going to ask this question, and the decision isn't based on whether someone can afford to do this or not, but it's interesting to me.

So at five hundred, let's do it.

You know, for 10, that's 5,000 a month, maybe 60,000 a year, but you're actually a little bit more than that, so it'll be about 90,000 a year in rent, and over 30 years now that the rent's probably increased, but you know, that is, you know,

The House of

It's hard to imagine that you can't do fixes to this house.

I don't know anything about it.

Do you not have anything else?

Well, I just wanted to recap a couple of things that came up in Planning Commission that were a little different.

I started to try to hone in on what was the authorization for the non-conforming, and apparently it was just a verbal okay from John Byrd.

there was no written documentation and Chair Finnegan sort of called me off on that he says let's not go down that rabbit hole because whether or not there was permission once he violated it that permission is null and void as Adam explained so so so excuse me I'm not done I didn't say you had to sit down I just said you needed to wait

and the second thing I mentioned just sort of off the top of my head is it's such a great building I mean that's what makes it a dilemma how do you use that great big building space in a way that's both legitimate and makes good use of it off the top of my head I said well if it's 16 bedrooms you can make it into four units well Adriel Byrd called me on that too that you know this is just discussion that each one would need its own

and Laura Dent

but I don't think any of you except Andy.

No, my husband.

This is so painful for me to sit here and listen to you talk about a slow landlord.

I want you to go home and breathe song 121.

This man is a good man.

He is good to his students.

He has complied with everything that the planning commission and the zoning force asked them to do.

And if you've been driving by the house, I'm surprised you didn't see him.

Because he has been in there, working.

You all are being so creative to someone.

Probably he is one of the best student landlords in this city.

Not just because he is my husband.

You can ask any student.

and they will tell you Craig Smith is the man to Red Bull and not because he allows more kids in the house.

You know, I'm sorry, I know I'm speaking, I'm not speaking well, but yes, I'm angry.

I'm just frustrated for my husband.

He's done this for 40 years and you're over-treating him.

All right, Susan.

That's 52 and a half years of marriage speak for what it's worth.

I knew this would be a tough night.

But I've owned that property for 35, almost 36 years.

and I've rented it out religiously for 35 and a half years to 10 students on the lease.

I do not go by and check bids.

I would not have been surprised if at different points over 35 years, as you had referenced and I think you had too, that certainly there was probably an extra student or so or whatever in the house, but I think I can assure you

that in the comments that have been shared earlier tonight regarding, oh, and there was proof in 15 in the house?

No.

Not 15 in the house.

And in fact, when we came back in August from having Tom Hanson's phone call on a Friday afternoon and show up on Monday, I called the housing folks that are appoint people for the house and said, how many people do you have in that house?

They said, well, actually, I think we've got lined up to start school in a week.

13 or 14, probably.

And I said, we have 10 on the lease.

You have a week to get them out of there.

That's the kind of supervision that we do provide when we are made aware that we've got something going on that shouldn't be happening in a house.

Within a week's time, those kids were gone.

We've maintained 10 in there this year.

Our leases even Hunter didn't give you the details to the harshness and the completeness of our leases with the tension that's been drawn to this house.

We're having three noise violations and we will be calling the police department monthly to get copies of reports.

In 35 years I've never seen one, never been approached by any city personnel regarding any aspect of our home with just one block from where we live.

Yes, I am over there, and I would wager you a bit, Mr. Fleming, that if you were to go by that house, it looks as nice as almost anyone's home that can be maintained.

The exterior of that home is ten times nicer than it was when I bought the home.

It's immaculate.

The city staff that came in in one week said, correct, you're in great shape.

Yes, you can allow your original set of ten on your lease to come back into the house here.

We've got the notices lined up for next year.

Three notices, they are absolutely revoking any privilege to come back into the house.

We said they better come by by every city, zoning, building codes, and if they don't, they will be removed from the house and still retain the financial obligations to the house.

It is not a fraternity house.

It might give some of the impressions because of the kids that are there and some of the painted sigma-new seals and stuff inside the house.

But the 10 kids that are in that house, I don't think there's been a noise violation this year.

There's not been a party in that house this year.

The basement is vacated at this point.

We're prepared to put whatever number of kids we're allowed to put into that house.

We've held off on our leases pending this meeting tonight so that we'll know how to proceed, whether it be two, four, five, ten, whatever you would allow.

It is a gorgeous home.

It's a home that is being repainted on the inside.

Floors are being refinished.

Any one of you, I think, would enjoy living in this quality home.

I felt like we would face the music.

It sounds terrible.

I was appalled when I got the call in August about the condition of the home.

Embarrassed.

And this has been tough to sit through this tonight.

But I've landlorded exclusively the students for 45 years.

I stand behind everything we're doing not only legally but morally with the homes that we've got I guess at this point there's not anything else I need to say I just want to kind of refocus what is going on I understand some of the impressions Mr. Jones you're concerned about how can you possibly allow more than ten in your house aren't you?

I think you have to walk through the management supervision of a home

to appreciate the fact that there could have been more different points in that house and it not reflect badly on management of the home itself there.

I would love for any one of you at any point to come into that home, see the home, evaluate it for yourself.

We would do anything even provisionally to assure you all that we are aggressively managing this particular property.

But the faults of putting four or five kids on a 16 bedroom home, all bedrooms huge in size with 10 foot ceilings, refinished,

It doesn't feel right.

And I think we're making every effort with the attention that's been drawn to this home to put conditional provisions in if you all require that.

It would be permanent for us in terms of how we exercise what we're doing with that home.

It's a block from us.

We live right there in the neighborhood, so to speak.

I would have been remiss had I not at least come to your attention and address some of the issues that I think have gotten skewed not totally inaccurate but skewed to the degree that I think it impinges on our reputations as landlords and I want to go on record

Validating the fact that we are as morally committed as we are legally to making sure that we show the students at JMU that we honor everything in terms of servicing our leases.

Thank you for your time.

I need to apologize for my outspokenness

But I think you could tell how strongly I feel about this and how difficult it was for me when I know so differently about this person to sit here and hear some of the suggestive remarks.

The only one I know specifically of is on Mason and Campbell

What you're saying is that you would be responsible and overseer, now that you know?

Not, not would be, have been, but in light of what's been drawn to the attention in this particular case, even more effort.

Fair enough.

Are you sure we're talking about the same home because we've got a bunch of young life kids.

Is that the one right on the corner of Mason?

No.

Okay, maybe it's a different house.

No, I think it is because honestly we've got young life kids in that house.

The only problem I'm having... Let me ask the houseman so, on the east side of Mason and on the north side of Campbell.

We're still open for public hearing.

If anyone else would like to speak, please state your name address.

I'm now live with City Council.

I'm a Yorkish-Generic Corpus City resident.

Madam Mayor, I have to say I'm dismayed by the discussion that I've seen.

Maybe none of you all have had the same college student experience that I did.

I think there's a real gap here.

And I'll try to use my five minutes efficiently.

But let me write at the start, invite the applicant and his tenants and his former tenants to People's Day on Monday.

It's Martin Luther King, Jr.

Way now.

It's not Kendra 11, you anymore.

And that we need is for you.

It's for all of you.

So please come.

Please come.

Because the way I've seen this, the way I interpreted what I saw at Planning Commission, goes back to a question that I asked when Deputy Chief Miller was elevated.

I asked, and we feel safe in the community calling the police.

If you come, will you side with the victim?

Or will you side with the perpetrator?

And he didn't respond.

And now we have this.

Let's walk through what happened as I heard it.

Maybe the facts are wrong, but this is what I heard that appalls me.

These young men did the right thing.

They helped their friends.

This wouldn't seem like the right thing.

And they got burglarized.

They were victims of a crime.

And in this victimization, they turned to the police.

and their interaction with the police ended up with an even more devastating victimization than the burglary from how I would have felt if I was then found myself displaced and my beloved landlord, which is how they spoke of him, is now losing his business because of something I did with my friends.

How can we feel safe calling the police?

under these circumstances.

And how did the police do this?

The clan is running rampant, and Chief Warner tells us she can't do anything.

How did this work out?

This is something I've been bringing up again and again.

Well, they went inside the police, and I'm not a detective, but to figure out who the burglar was, they peeped in the refrigerator.

Now, if you've ever been a teenage college student, some of you might have discovered your gag reflex right about that time.

It happens.

And what did the police do?

Well, they couldn't do anything.

They didn't do anything.

What they did do is they handed it off to the Department of Community Development for an aesthetic nuisance violation.

The Department of Community Development Development, where you are guilty until proven innocent.

And when the rule of hands, whatever the Department of Community says, the development says it is, and that is how these people lost their home.

And they're not the only ones.

Time and again, we've seen this mechanism used, and I am deeply disturbed by the link between the police department, which does follow the rules,

and the Department of Community Development where those rules of procedures that let the clan run rampant are not applied.

This really disturbs me.

And I will say one more thing here.

In front of Planning Commission, when you were looking at this building that somehow makes sense to put rooms for 16 women across from JNU

A beautiful old building makes sense somehow.

At some point, through a self-imposed occupancy limit, no longer makes sense.

And now, when it's occupied like that young man, here we have a housing problem.

The housing shortage we have people displaced.

When we have this beautiful old building, well, you know, no developers can make money on this.

Not even a renovator or plumber can really make money on this unless we put it in the sprinkler system.

And I hope that I'm wrong about some of the facts of the matter, but that's how I'm expected to be the fact that I am speaking to Mr. Gage, as you all can see, with Mr. Gage and his students.

And in this way, by the way, he's good at speaking about the land use.

I saw this act that he said was a pair of batons in the system.

Who use the term batons in the system?

That's it.

I could argue he has violated many of the dozen or so ethical guidelines for planning commissioners.

I'm here now live with City Council.

Thank you.

My name is Kathy Whitten.

I live in Old Town and am neighbors of Sue and Craig Smith.

I will say that sometimes their properties are not kept up as well as you have been told this evening.

There's a house just right up the street in the very room you're sitting in.

It's called the Toolbox and it is an eyesore and students run up and down Campbell Street having races with grocery carts and gallons of milk.

There's a lot of behavior that you would not enjoy having in your neighborhood.

The particular house on Walnut Lane I do not have a lot of information about except what I have learned from Planning Commission and tonight's public hearings.

But I can tell you from being a resident since 1987 that boarding houses are one of the scourges and have been

for the whole 30-something years that I have lived here in our zone.

They are very hard to manage.

They are very hard to figure out who lives there.

I would not ever be in favor of having boarding house.

It is a kind of archaic notion, something where people rent rooms and have meals.

That doesn't happen anymore.

I really recommend that this is a very bad idea.

I'm very sorry that the Smiths have this big old house, but they have to figure out what to do.

But I do believe that they can certainly work that out.

They own a lot of property, and I do feel that this can be managed and not

to be a terrible problem to their neighbors, which I'm sure there has been.

Fraternity houses are not a good thing in a neighborhood.

They should not exist.

And the students that live in fraternity houses have complete disregard for their neighbors.

And that is from somebody who knows, because I have had to fight this battle.

So please don't be taken in by a lawyer who tells you what a good thing this is and what a shame it is to have to put a sprinkler system in.

If you have that many people living in a house, it's not safe unless it does have a sprinkler system.

So think about that for a few minutes.

Madam Mayor, I move that we deny the request from Craig D. Smith and Sue W. Smith for a special use permit to allow a boarding and rooming house at 860 Walnut Lane.

Is that right?

To me it's a shame because this is a building that could be used in ways that are providing good housing close to GMU and a lot of bedrooms in there.

I'd like to see it responsibly or I guess used in accordance with our zoning ordinances.

I will say that the building I was thinking of on 135 Campbell Street, that is the building that I was referencing.

I wish this was a house that we could make use of all these bedrooms.

I guess there is one way to do it and that is to divide it up so that bedrooms can be used.

I think during the planning commission there was a discussion that

Really, the extra bedrooms are going to get filled up at some point.

I'm not sure if there's another way that this is going to be rented other than as a fraternity to get ten folks there in that house.

I think this is destined to be a fraternity house.

And the students who are there are, they said because they are in a fraternity, they're going to fill up those extra bedrooms.

I think this is going to happen.

I said I don't think you're a terrible person or anything like that, and I appreciate what you said about yourself.

I think more and more people ought to defend people, but I don't think it's true.

But we're just all humans and sometimes you miss stuff.

And so you miss the one.

To me, that's just all of it.

I miss plenty of them.

We all do.

But for the tenants to report 15, you ended up thinking it was about 13 or 14.

That's a lot of extra people, in my opinion.

So much so that no one was saying, oh, my buddy was there.

My cousin was there.

My girlfriend was there.

They said a third more of the people stayed there.

You know what I mean?

And if you got the three or four, okay, three or four, but that's not one or two people every so often.

Because if it was that type of people talk, so they would have just said it's one or two people every so often.

They would have said five people every so often.

But that wasn't the case.

I think that shows

A level of disregard that's a little different than what we usually see.

I'll be honest with you, this is the first time that I think this would be the first time I've actually had someone report it.

But as a nuisance to remove those issues from it, this is my first one.

I'm trying not to make a mistake.

I don't think this is technically to remove the specialties.

I've never had anyone hit.

In fact, we got on the housing authority when they tried to plight homes.

You know, I'm one that, that not many people know.

I'm out in the street when the fraternity party, when the party's out there.

I'm out seeing where they, what's going on, who's doing what.

I've stopped a few.

I've got yelled at for doing it, but I do it.

You know, when I catch them, doing things they're not supposed to be doing.

I don't know your husband.

It seems like he's a good man, you're a good person as well.

But a tough conversation had to be had tonight.

And that's what we're here for.

For me, it's tough that it's 16 bedrooms.

It's 410 people.

I think it's almost too easy

for college students to have those extra bedrooms and think that they're not going to put people in there if you know it or not.

You know what I mean?

I mean, they're students.

They're young people.