City Council Meeting   6/16/2008

ANNOUNCEMENTS

• • 00:00:51
    you
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:02:28
    I'd like to call this meeting to order and we'll start with the Pledge of Allegiance.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 00:02:36
    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:02:59
    Thank you.
  • 00:03:00
    We're going to start with some announcements.
  • 00:03:01
    First of all, I'm very pleased to announce that we're having a free concert here at the Pavilion to kick off the Fourth of July holiday, July 3rd, beginning at 6.30 p.m., the U.S. National Guard Band.
  • 00:03:12
    So please do come out and hear some good music.
  • 00:03:15
    Also, of course, as always, Fourth of July fireworks in McIntyre Park with afternoon activities with bands, fireworks at dusk around 9 p.m.
  • 00:03:24
    Please do come enjoy those.
  • 00:03:26
    Again, as our minor note, parking number 250.
  • 00:03:29
    There will be shuttle space available from the Kmart parking lot, the county office building, and McIntyre, and with disabled service from Walker School.
  • 00:03:38
    And also, we're kicking off another season of Movies in the Park this weekend, Saturday at Mead Park in Honesty Pool.
  • 00:03:46
    Evan Almighty, friend here in Albemarle County.
  • 00:03:50
    We'll be showing family events from 5.30 to 7 p.m. with a movie to follow.
  • 00:03:56
    Also, we now have available at City Hall the new updated version of our Charlottesville Trails Map.
  • 00:04:02
    Anybody that would like to enjoy our city trail system and extensive trail system is a wonderful map that's been put together.
  • 00:04:08
    Please do come down and get your copy.
  • 00:04:12
    Mr. O'Connell, I understand you have some good news to share regarding our bond rating.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 00:04:17
    Sir, I've got a copy.
  • 00:04:21
    As some people may know, the city every time we go to sell bonds, we're looked at pretty closely by writing agencies that look at the city's financial ability
  • 00:04:32
    financial policies and we just received a triple-A bond rating again from both Standard & Poor's and Moody's.
  • 00:04:39
    The significance of that from the taxpayer standpoint is hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in cost savings that we receive because we get the best bond rating that's out there.
  • 00:04:49
    We're one of the few small cities in the United States that has a triple-A bond rating.
  • 00:04:53
    There are only two cities in Virginia that have a AAA bond rating, so we're often proud of that.
  • 00:04:59
    I thought I might read one or two things, and I think the mayor has got a couple others from one of the rating agencies, but I want to mention that it indicates that our financial management practices are strong, well a part of the city organization, and an ability to sustain it for the future.
  • 00:05:18
    We continue to have low debt burden.
  • 00:05:21
    I think one of the interesting things about our community
  • 00:05:24
    As we enter this process most other places are in the country as you might expect or haven't.
  • 00:05:29
    much more severe economic problems and it shows up in people's difficulties to get a good bond rating.
  • 00:05:34
    At the same time, we sell our bonds.
  • 00:05:39
    The state of Virginia, which is also AAA, we're selling bonds.
  • 00:05:43
    We did a couple percent better on our bonds, so that's another bit of good news for our residents in terms of what we have to pay with our budget.
  • 00:05:53
    Got a couple other comments I think the mayor wants to make as well.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:05:55
    Well, I just wanted to share one just to shed some light on the way in which, the esteem in which the financial community holds the work of our city's financial staff.
  • 00:06:08
    Kevin Rowdy of Morgan Keegan and Company, financial advisor,
  • 00:06:12
    recently said, the city of Charlottesville continues to be at the forefront of the best managed localities in the nation.
  • 00:06:18
    The city's conservative financial practices and its ongoing economic development initiatives have enabled the city to grow and prosper despite a slowing economy.
  • 00:06:27
    So I wanted to thank the city manager and his staff for continued management of our city's finances and it's good news for all of our citizens.
  • 00:06:39
    Any other announcements or items to be added to the agenda?
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 00:06:41
    Yeah, I just had one thing, and I think it was in the newspaper, but I wanted to congratulate the city police department.
  • 00:06:49
    They participated in SWAT team activity, I think, in, I guess there were about 20 other departments there, and this is a team that deals with hostage situations and all kinds of special situations.
  • 00:07:05
    They spent a long time training, and
  • 00:07:07
    probably one of the hottest days of the year when they were over in Harrisonburg but they walked away with all the honors and I think that's a real tribute to the police department and those members of the SWAT team that spent many long hours training and preparing for it and I just wanted to mention that.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:07:26
    I agree, thank you Mr. Taliaferro.
  • 00:07:28
    Any other announcements or items?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:07:31
    I just wanted to announce about municipal band.
  • 00:07:34
    As you may know that it is now being played in Paramount Theatre.
  • 00:07:38
    I went to the last week or Tuesday, and it is free, and it is a very good concert.
  • 00:07:45
    We have the next one is tomorrow, and I thank the council for their support, and I want to bring the message back to you.
  • 00:07:53
    And I think if you haven't been to municipal band lately, and especially now in Paramount Theatre, I think you will enjoy it, and I hope you will go.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 00:08:02
    I just want to remind everyone that the walking program of Quality Community Council, QCC Walks, has been continuing all summer.
  • 00:08:12
    We'll be meeting this Saturday at 8.30.
  • 00:08:15
    and the walk leaders will be the Cardinals wheelchair basketball team.
  • 00:08:20
    We have a hard time keeping up with them too.
  • 00:08:23
    We'll be meeting at the Independent Resource Center on Cherry Avenue and you're welcome to join us.
  • 00:08:28
    I think this week is going to be like a 2.5 walk so get ready to do some moving.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 00:08:36
    Mayor, I wanted to thank Jessica Nagle and Nick Nichols and everyone else who worked hard to make the Festival of the Photo such a success over the weekend.
  • 00:08:48
    It's really a great event.
  • 00:08:49
    It brings a lot of people to our community.
  • 00:08:51
    It showcases the local talent that we have, but it also brings in world-class photographers from around the country.
  • 00:08:58
    And if you missed it, there still shows for the next month that most of our downtown galleries
  • 00:09:04
    at Lyudomon, The CNO.
  • 00:09:07
    It's a great show at McGuffey, which actually has a show that features some of our high school students.
  • 00:09:14
    The Prom was part of a show that was featured in People Magazine.
  • 00:09:19
    And so, anyway, it's a great event.
  • 00:09:21
    I want to publicly thank everyone who worked hard to make that such a successful event this year.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:09:28
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:09:29
    We'll now proceed to matters by the public.
  • 00:09:32
    We do have a limit of three minutes per speaker.
  • 00:09:35
    When you come forward, please state your name and give your address.
  • 00:09:37
    The first person to sign up is Paul Grady.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:09:50
    My name is Paul Grady and I live just outside of Crozet.
  • 00:09:56
    I was very disturbed recently to read about the consultant's current recommendations about the Eastern Connector.
  • 00:10:03
    I proposed my first alignment for the new Eastern Connector six or seven years ago, but that alignment has been virtually built over.
  • 00:10:12
    I say new Eastern Connector because there was an Eastern Connector on the low-range plan from the early 70s.
  • 00:10:18
    It was proposed, I believe, by Mr. Huja.
  • 00:10:23
    Sometime in the early 80s, it was removed from the long-range plan.
  • 00:10:27
    There does not seem to be any documentation as to why, when, or how it was removed, but my guess is that it is just another example of something happening without any public input and most likely without a public hearing.
  • 00:10:40
    Shortly after that, two parks sprang up over that alignment.
  • 00:10:45
    I emailed this idea to county staff in written form after the last public meeting on the Eastern Connector, but this is the first time I have committed this idea to paper.
  • 00:10:55
    It starts opposite State Farm Boulevard on 250 East and hugs the edge of the growth area until it reaches Route 20.
  • 00:11:02
    The alignment crosses Route 20 at Doyer Drive, just like all
  • 00:11:05
    Alternative 3, but then crosses the river diangly at the least objectionable location between the Metta Creek Golf Course and the Darlington Park to this city's old wastewater treatment plant site, hugging the southern edge of the golf course and then traverses a ravine just south of the Catholic School to East Royal Road.
  • 00:11:26
    As far as I can determine, it would only require the purchase of one house.
  • 00:11:31
    This is not a short route or a cheap road to build, but it is doable.
  • 00:11:36
    I get very frustrated when some people throw up their hands and say there will never be enough money to build this.
  • 00:11:42
    We have been waiting for almost 40 years for the Meadow Creek Parkway to get built, but it is about to happen.
  • 00:11:48
    I don't care if it takes another 40 years to get an eastern connector built.
  • 00:11:52
    The public deserves this road.
  • 00:11:54
    Alternatives 1 and 2 will eventually need to be built, but they do very little to alleviate traffic congestion on the 250 bypass.
  • 00:12:01
    My alignment, I believe,
  • 00:12:03
    could take as much as 50% of the traffic off the 250 bypass.
  • 00:12:08
    So I implore this council to remove the no-build option from the table and reserve a right-of-way, any right-of-way, now.
  • 00:12:16
    This road has to be built, otherwise the 250 bypass will be at gridlock by 2050.
  • 00:12:22
    And public transit cannot solve this problem because a large portion of the traffic is coming from Fluvanna and Louisa counties.
  • 00:12:30
    This I learned as a county citizen representative to the Jefferson Area Eastern Planning Initiative Advisory Committee in the early part of this decade.
  • 00:12:39
    We are not judged by how little we dream, but by how well we prevail.
  • 00:12:44
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:12:45
    Thank you, Mr. Grady.
  • 00:12:46
    Elizabeth Meyer.
• • SPEAKER_04
  • 00:12:54
    My name is Beth Meyer.
  • 00:12:55
    I live at 2000 Thompson Road.
  • 00:12:57
    I believe the downtown mall does not respect the historic significance of this landscape and the renown of its designer, landscape architect, Lawrence Halfrin.
  • 00:13:06
    This development has caught me and many others by surprise.
  • 00:13:10
    We read the WRT master plan and believe that its laudable goal to respect and preserve the integrity of the historic Lawrence Halfrin design, including overall plan layout of elements, materials, and details, was the guiding principle for the current work.
  • 00:13:24
    Over the last month, I've studied the cities and the current consultants' websites, watched the last BAR meeting on TV, and spoken with city officials.
  • 00:13:33
    The more I learn, the more concerned I am that what is being marketed as a rehabilitation is actually the demolition of the downtown mall, and it's redesigned by a firm hired, according to its own website, to provide civil engineering services to the city.
  • 00:13:49
    Let's be clear about the meaning of terms.
  • 00:13:51
    Rehabilitation describes the kind of design alteration that meets new uses and challenges, like technical challenges, while retaining a landscape's historic character.
  • 00:14:02
    This act takes a careful assessment of what gives character to the existing and how to modify that character without destroying its essential materials, elements, and details.
  • 00:14:14
    What historic character is left when every paving brick is removed and in the spurious claims of sustainability, they are replaced with bricks of a different size and proportion?
  • 00:14:25
    When every spider-like fixture is to be replaced with a new one that is similar, but two feet higher?
  • 00:14:31
    When there's not enough money to repair the brick properly with four by 12 pavers, but there are proposals for new granite pavement?
  • 00:14:39
    New bubbler fountains, a new playground and a cascading fountain.
  • 00:14:43
    When city staff described the project as a necessary cosmetic upgrade that cannot be restricted by concerns about preservation.
  • 00:14:52
    It appears that every detail in the mall is up for grabs and the current plan is a far cry from either rehabilitation or civil engineering.
  • 00:15:00
    My fear is that this wonderful open space designed by Larry Halprin will be degraded by a myriad of small scale compromises.
  • 00:15:09
    The authentic landscape will be disassembled and carted to a landfill and key elements of the design will be replaced with cosmetic upgrades.
  • 00:15:17
    In doing so, we will have to replace a significant modern designed landscape with a banal one.
  • 00:15:24
    I'm heartened to hear that a public meeting about the mall was recently scheduled for June 30th
  • 00:15:28
    I urge council to ensure that this is an opportunity for exchange and for education and not simply for the presentation of current plans.
  • 00:15:37
    Otherwise, council should accept the responsibility for destroying a beloved and authentic modern landscape that is likely eligible for the National Register of Historic Places and a National Historic Landmark designation.
  • 00:15:51
    We should stop claiming that current plans are means to repair.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:15:56
    Thank you, Ms. Meyer.
• • SPEAKER_27
  • 00:16:05
    My name is Lydia Brandt and I live at 1322 Chesapeake Street.
  • 00:16:09
    I'm a PhD student in art and architectural history here at the university, a board member of Preservation Piedmont, and perhaps most importantly, a fourth generation Charlottesville resident.
  • 00:16:19
    In all of these capacities, the downtown mall has been a stage for much of my life here in Charlottesville.
  • 00:16:24
    As a historian, it has also come to represent a moment in Charlottesville's past when the city came together to create a true community space that persists successfully to the present day.
  • 00:16:35
    Lawrence Halpern, the renowned landscape architect who envisioned the downtown mall, as well as other significant landscapes such as the FDR Memorial and Washington DC's historic core,
  • 00:16:45
    understood the desolation that the city faced after the demolition of Venable Hill through urban renewal, years of racial tension over segregation, and the abandonment of downtown.
  • 00:16:57
    Through community workshops, Halpern and his team developed a place where all of the city citizens were able to participate, making the project significant not only for its subtle and innovative design solutions, but also for its incorporation of community process.
  • 00:17:12
    The downtown mall was built with careful regard to Charlottesville's social, economic, and architectural history, a design approach that should be a model for any alteration.
  • 00:17:22
    As we consider the rehabilitation of the downtown mall in the 21st century, it is imperative that we understand Halpern's pedestrian street as something that must be held as dear as any other architectural monument in Charlottesville.
  • 00:17:36
    The preservation of the downtown mall is as important as any building with red bricks and white columns that we might traditionally think of as worthy of our admiration.
  • 00:17:46
    It was built by and for the citizens of Charlottesville
  • 00:17:49
    Yet it is also a nationally significant landscape in the context of Lawrence Hopron's work, downtown redevelopment after urban renewal, and modern American landscape architecture.
  • 00:17:59
    As 21st century Charlottesville residents, our role is not to reinvent them all, but to serve as vigilant stewards of its preservation.
  • 00:18:08
    Halpern developed his community-oriented process to be a creative consensus rather than a compromise.
  • 00:18:15
    If we begin our pending rehabilitation without proper study or consideration of Halpern's original design and the process that preceded it, we are in danger of a compromise that we will regret.
  • 00:18:27
    The subtleties of the design, the size of the brick,
  • 00:18:30
    the varying levels of the street section and the ways in which trees and furnishings are arranged to encourage a meandering pedestrian path and a series of different views will be lost if we don't understand why these elements were included in the design and how they all add up to a space created by and subsequently loved by Charlottesville citizens.
  • 00:18:50
    I strongly encourage the city to take time to discover and consider the history and significance of the mall so that the upcoming rehabilitation may respect it rather than replace it with something second rate.
  • 00:19:02
    My colleagues at Preservation Piedmont, the University of Virginia School of Architecture, and my friends and family who call this place home hope that at the meeting hosted by the city on June 30th, the spirit of Halprin's creative consensus will be revived.
  • 00:19:16
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:19:17
    Thank you, Ms. Brown.
• • SPEAKER_02
  • 00:19:29
    Good evening, Mr. Mayor and Councillors.
  • 00:19:31
    Colette Hall, 101 Robertson Lane.
  • 00:19:34
    I'm going to talk about the streetcar, the proposed streetcar.
  • 00:19:38
    The free trolley is working.
  • 00:19:40
    Additional plan service modifications to the trolley and buses will improve service on the proposed streetcar route.
  • 00:19:48
    That's great.
  • 00:19:50
    Second, North Downtown, part of where the trolley will run, does not want more ugly overhead wires.
  • 00:19:56
    We have repeatedly asked for underground utility poles in our five-year comprehensive plans.
  • 00:20:03
    It is very expensive to underground utilities, as the city knows.
  • 00:20:07
    witness the Court Square renovation.
  • 00:20:10
    We used to have so many big, beautiful trees, many were cut back and subsequently died to protect utility lines.
  • 00:20:19
    North Downtown now has many narrow, non-pedestrian sidewalks due to utility poles intruding on them.
  • 00:20:26
    Please, no additional poles and no wires extending over the roads.
  • 00:20:32
    Next, does this plan deny access to streets using these most direct east-west and north-south commercial city streets?
  • 00:20:42
    If a streetcar uses street space, will cars be able to park on either side?
  • 00:20:47
    Where are all these cars going to park?
  • 00:20:49
    Is this business friendly?
  • 00:20:52
    Next, two years ago, the North Downtown Native Association heard from a serious bicyclist who bikes to the university for work.
  • 00:21:01
    As a bicyclist, she has numerous reasons why a streetcar would not be biker friendly.
  • 00:21:08
    and in fact, Detrimental.
  • 00:21:10
    Her persuasive reasons convinced several neighbors who previously had been streetcar supporters.
  • 00:21:18
    And finally, with tonight's vote increasing gas, water, sewer rates, and multi-millions of dollars needed for a future water supply and wastewater treatment centers plan, how can city taxpayers absorb another multi-million dollar project?
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:21:38
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_03
  • 00:21:40
    Good evening Mr. Mayor, Members of Council.
  • 00:21:55
    My name is Genevieve Keller.
  • 00:21:57
    I live at 504 North First Street in the downtown.
  • 00:22:00
    I'm here tonight to share my concern over possible design changes to the downtown mall, which is a significant designed landscape by Lawrence Halperin.
  • 00:22:10
    The mall retains the original qualities and features as designed by Halperin and is perhaps a relatively rare survivor of its type, a successful downtown pedestrian mall from the 1970s.
  • 00:22:24
    I'm a co-author of a bulletin that was designed to assist the Department of the Interior in evaluating and designating design landscapes for the National Register of Historic Places.
  • 00:22:35
    I wanted to share that document with you tonight.
  • 00:22:39
    To reiterate that our mall meets the criteria of the National Register.
  • 00:22:44
    Our mall is a living and evolving space that can accept some additions, but its essential character defining original design features should be respected.
  • 00:22:55
    The mall itself is probably more significant as a design than most of the buildings that define its edges.
  • 00:23:02
    I have frequently stood before council and stated that it's not an individual building downtown that is significant, but instead it's the entire assemblage, the collection of buildings taken together that are important.
  • 00:23:16
    Tonight I want to state that the mall itself is a quite significant design in its own right and that it will continue to achieve significance over time if treated as a work of art and conserved rather than destroyed.
  • 00:23:29
    As a member of the Downtown Board of Architectural Review through the 1980s, I struggled along with my colleagues and with Mr. Huja to accommodate outdoor dining and so I acutely understand the need for the mall to evolve.
  • 00:23:45
    Sometimes aging commercial districts try to reinvent themselves with a new design to attract attention.
  • 00:23:51
    Albemarle doesn't have to do that.
  • 00:23:54
    Instead, it needs to be rehabilitated, as Beth Meyer has recommended this evening, retaining the size and the pattern of the brick, the cross section of the pavement, the tree planting pattern, the mall furnishings, and as much open feeling as possible.
  • 00:24:09
    I often bring my visitors from across the country and internationally to visit our mall.
  • 00:24:14
    They're uniformly impressed with its design.
  • 00:24:18
    Our mall will continue to attract visitors and more users who appreciate its significance and design if our city treats it as the resource that it most certainly is.
  • 00:24:27
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:24:28
    Thank you Ms. Keller.
  • 00:24:29
    Anthony Guy-Lopez.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 00:24:36
    Okay, thank you.
  • 00:24:40
    I'm here to speak about number seven on the agenda, the Sacajawea historic marker.
  • 00:24:48
    It's in your packet.
  • 00:24:50
    I think later you'll have a discussion.
  • 00:24:52
    I don't know if we'll have a chance to actually
  • 00:24:55
    have a discussion later about it.
  • 00:24:57
    So I wanted to make a few comments about it because I was part of the local community that spoke up and voiced objections to the current Lewis and Clark statue on McIntyre and University and especially the portrayal of Sacajawea.
  • 00:25:18
    You know what statue I'm talking about in the image that I'm referring to?
  • 00:25:22
    The one of Sacajawea cowering behind and underneath Lewis and Clark in a way that I think most people would describe as demeaning and hurtful, I think, before
  • 00:25:36
    in terms of the way women are portrayed, first of all, and then also the way American Indians are portrayed in the history of our country and also here, you know, the Charlottesville legacy, the way we seek to appreciate what our history is.
  • 00:25:52
    Now, I live in Schuyler, I should have mentioned that I live in, just across the county line in Nelson County.
  • 00:26:01
    And I've been a graduate student in anthropology at the university for the past couple of years.
  • 00:26:06
    I can say one thing about the current proposal for the monument.
  • 00:26:15
    We contacted the family of Sacajawea, some of her descendants, and they proposed language that they thought appropriate for any kind of historic marker, and it's pretty good.
  • 00:26:28
    The language that has been submitted and I think has been unanimously endorsed by the committee, the Historic Resources Committee, I think that's a very positive and a great start to reconciling Charlottesville's
  • 00:26:43
    relationship with American Indians through Lewis and Clark and Sacajawea.
  • 00:26:48
    But the problem that we're having is that the marker that's being proposed, it's a $500 bronze marker, I think it measures something like 15 inches by 17 inches.
  • 00:27:03
    It's a very small marker, so it wouldn't really be visible.
  • 00:27:07
    as you drive by and it would be hard.
  • 00:27:09
    You'd have to actually be walking by and you'd have to stop and read it and it wouldn't really change the character of the current monument.
  • 00:27:18
    So what I would ask is that more money be appropriated so that the marker is larger, at least as large as the base, like those four sides to the base of the statue, at least one of the sides of the base.
  • 00:27:34
    Maybe it could be that large.
  • 00:27:37
    Maybe that would be three feet by five feet or something on that order.
  • 00:27:41
    I think it would cost a couple thousand more dollars to do that.
  • 00:27:46
    And then also the family requested that there be a positive image of Sacajawea and her infant son incorporated into the marker because of the negative image that's currently there.
  • 00:28:03
    and the community that has spoken up about this, you know, it's very important that there be some acknowledgement that the current image is controversial and objectionable to a lot of the people, especially American Indians and the women in our community as well as men who care about them.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:28:30
    Thank you Mr. Lopez.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 00:28:32
    And I'd like to be able to talk more about this because this is kind of a big thing for us.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:28:38
    I appreciate you bringing your concerns to our attention.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 00:28:41
    Should I stay?
  • 00:28:42
    Please do.
  • 00:28:43
    Please do.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:28:46
    That's the last person who signed up to speak.
  • 00:28:48
    Is there anybody else?
  • 00:28:50
    Mr. Mason?
• • SPEAKER_23
  • 00:28:59
    Hello, my name is Raymond Mason, I live at 717 Symphony Avenue, Charlottesville, Virginia, and I have two issues.
  • 00:29:04
    I noticed that the consent agenda on ordinance L, expanding of the $200 enhanced speeding fines to what you named a couple of the streets.
  • 00:29:14
    It appears that, you know, this is a positive thing.
  • 00:29:17
    I would suggest or recommend or hope you would consider making this a city-wide thing.
  • 00:29:21
    That way we don't have to, every other week or so, we're going to have to street match the street.
  • 00:29:24
    Just make it city-wide and get it done and done with.
  • 00:29:26
    And that way it'll be done and it'll be safe in neighborhoods.
  • 00:29:28
    It'll be safe in my neighborhood, schools, disabilities, and any other neighborhood.
  • 00:29:32
    So, you need to help.
  • 00:29:33
    Okay, next, the street car issue.
  • 00:29:37
    I have some real concerns about this, especially the two to three hundred thousand dollars that this street car for me wants the city to fund so they can do some consulting work.
  • 00:29:46
    Well, I can't see the benefits.
  • 00:29:49
    We have a great training system here.
  • 00:29:52
    I mean, you know, even though only two to five percent of people ride to go to work, a lot of other people ride just to ride through Charlottesville.
  • 00:29:58
    You have a free travel, which is an excellent thing.
  • 00:29:59
    It works great.
  • 00:30:01
    And for only, you know, seven million dollars for
  • 00:30:04
    with three miles of track, that's $23.3 million per mile.
  • 00:30:09
    I can't understand it.
  • 00:30:11
    To me, that's just overkill.
  • 00:30:13
    We don't have shelters for the homeless in this town.
  • 00:30:16
    We don't have rehabilitation detox facilities with the state cutting funds to all those places.
  • 00:30:22
    I mean, if you want to spend $70 million or even consider it,
  • 00:30:25
    You know, spare for something that would benefit the community as a whole, not just the shoppers.
  • 00:30:29
    This shop from the mall is going to Branch Road.
  • 00:30:31
    I don't think, you know, it's like they say something about the people living over top of downtown and all those various... Well, I mean, Albemarle's not that hard to walk.
  • 00:30:39
    It's not that difficult.
  • 00:30:40
    And I say the buses run every time I see one.
  • 00:30:42
    I mean, when you walk the street, you see buses running back and forth.
  • 00:30:44
    Because they choose not to ride those buses, that's their fault, not mine or the city's.
  • 00:30:48
    And, you know, if they were to use those buses, you know, they would learn to enjoy them.
  • 00:30:53
    and with that being said, I would hope you wouldn't give that $200,000 off with a selfie because that's not very feasible at all.
• • SPEAKER_12
  • 00:31:02
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 00:31:04
    Anybody else like to speak?
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 00:31:12
    Oh, thank you.
  • 00:31:14
    I'm Edith Goode, 305 Second Street Northwest.
  • 00:31:17
    I'd like to speak about the downtown mall renovation and say I agree with all the people who are speaking in favor of adhering to Mr. Halpern's design.
  • 00:31:31
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:31:32
    Thank you, Ms. Goode.
  • 00:31:34
    Mr. Shayan.
• • SPEAKER_12
  • 00:31:43
    I'm Zachary Sheahan, 701 East High Street.
  • 00:31:48
    I just want to speak briefly about the streetcar project that's being discussed tonight.
  • 00:31:53
    There's a couple of important issues I think that should just be remembered in this whole consideration.
  • 00:31:58
    I know there's a lot of budget issues and a big picture that you all have a much better
  • 00:32:03
    ability to look at and put this into context.
  • 00:32:07
    But I think there's a couple important issues regarding this project to keep in mind.
  • 00:32:11
    One is that on average, these new streetcar systems have a revenue to cost ratio of about 4.5 to 1.
  • 00:32:19
    So it looks like a large investment up front at the front end of this project, but given the experience so far in the country, the city would regain about 4.5 times more money from
  • 00:32:32
    revenue if this would go in.
  • 00:32:36
    It's likely is what the experience shows so far.
  • 00:32:40
    Charlottesville is a prime candidate for this kind of system.
  • 00:32:43
    It's got a good urban structure that fits around it well, and it's got some good different connection points that could really benefit from this kind of a line.
  • 00:32:55
    As I say, 4.5 to 1 revenue to cost ratio.
  • 00:32:58
    I know there's a lot of concern about the cost, but I think at this point in time, that revenue to cost ratio might even be higher in the future because of the concerns we're seeing about transportation in general and housing on the outskirts of town.
  • 00:33:16
    Second point is
  • 00:33:20
    The city and this whole area seems to be on an edge, basically.
  • 00:33:26
    There's a lot of potential for development all around the outsides of the city.
  • 00:33:33
    It reminds me a lot of what Florida probably went through a few decades ago, 50 years ago, what the Triangle area of North Carolina is going through for a more comparable urban area.
  • 00:33:47
    with their traffic transportation problems resulting from suburban style development on outscales of town.
  • 00:33:54
    I think the biggest benefit to the streetcar project is that it channelizes development back into the urban core of the city.
  • 00:34:02
    So any new development that would be going on and maybe an increased development would be channelized into the urban core of the city more rather than on the outskirts of Charlottesville, probably Albemarle County.
  • 00:34:14
    And I think it's a great benefit to reinvigorating Charlottesville as an urban center for the area.
  • 00:34:22
    So just a couple of points to consider and I know there's a lot of things to consider with this project and the report covers all of the issues pretty well.
  • 00:34:31
    and of course there's regional transit authority issues to keep in mind about when is the public time to move forward with this project.
  • 00:34:37
    But thank you for your time.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:34:39
    Thank you Mr. Chayen.
  • 00:34:41
    We're going to conclude matters by the public at that point.
  • 00:34:44
    We've got a lot on our agenda tonight.
  • 00:34:45
    Certainly will be an opportunity at the end of the agenda if anybody else would like to speak.
  • 00:34:49
    Any councilors like to share responses to matters by the public?
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 00:34:54
    Well, the only, you know, the comments on them all, we have a discussion item on that.
  • 00:35:02
    I want to make sure that, I appreciated the comments by Mr. Lopez, but I want to make sure we are clear that the agenda item on the historic marker is not a public hearing, so that, but there'll be a chance for additional comment at the end of our meeting during the next public comment session.
  • 00:35:20
    Just, I want to make sure he understood what the process would be.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:35:24
    I'd like to make one comment about the four people who have spoken downtown now and I must say I agree with all those comments and I would have detailed comments on them if you didn't like us in the discussion.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 00:35:47
    I'll disagree with what's mine.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 00:35:49
    I just wanted to make a comment about the issues that Mr. Lopez brought forth and I think that thank you for bringing them.
  • 00:36:09
    That's an example of a part of a history that we need to embrace.
  • 00:36:17
    and acknowledge as difficult as it is.
  • 00:36:21
    And I think that the marker, even though it's small, we both know that it has a big impact.
  • 00:36:30
    And it's the beginning of being able to talk about parts of a history that is difficult but we do need to acknowledge.
  • 00:36:39
    And I think the marker and the language that's being used on it is the beginning of being able to hear some of those relationships in the past.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:36:50
    Thank you.
  • 00:36:51
    The only thing I'll add is, Mr. Mason, you raised a good question about why can't these speeding fines be applied citywide, and actually we can't legally.
  • 00:36:57
    There's a provision in the state code that allows you to apply these additional speeding fines only under specific conditions, and only certain streets meet those conditions, but we can't do it citywide.
  • 00:37:08
    But it's a good question.
  • 00:37:11
    Okay, thank you all.
  • 00:37:13
    We're going to now move on to the consent agenda for tonight.
  • 00:37:17
    On the consent agenda tonight, minutes of May 5th, 6th, and 19th.
  • 00:37:22
    Item D is an appropriation of $26,000, Charlottesville Community Design Center reimbursement, second of two readings.
  • 00:37:29
    Item C, appropriation of $4,950, Job Fair reimbursement, second of two readings.
  • 00:37:34
    Item D, an appropriation of $18,000, First Tee program grant, second of two readings.
  • 00:37:40
    Item E, an appropriation of $25,000, marketing program for visitors bureau, second of two readings.
  • 00:37:46
    Item F, an appropriation of $5,000, first T grant, first of two readings.
  • 00:37:50
    Item G, a resolution special permit for increased density at 1311 Wortland Street, first of one reading.
  • 00:37:57
    Item G, a resolution special permit amendment for international school, first of one meeting.
  • 00:38:02
    Item I, Ordinance Amendment to Sewer Use Standards, 2nd and 2 readings.
  • 00:38:06
    Item J, an Ordinance City Gas Regulation Amendment, 2nd and 2 readings.
  • 00:38:10
    Item K, an Ordinance Neighborhood Development Services Fee Schedule Change, 2nd and 2 readings.
  • 00:38:15
    Item L, Ordinance Expanding $200 Enhanced Speeding Fines to Elliott Avenue from Monticello Avenue to Ridge Street, Brandy One Drive from Hydraulic Road to Yorktown Drive,
  • 00:38:24
    and Franklin Street from Nassau Street to Market Street, second two readings.
  • 00:38:28
    And finally, item M, an ordinance homeowner tax relief grant program, first of two readings.
  • 00:38:34
    Are there any items to be removed from the consent agenda or a motion to approve?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:38:39
    Yes, Mr. Huja.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:38:41
    Mr. Huja, go ahead.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:38:43
    I'd like to request item G be removed from the consent agenda.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:38:47
    Okay, item G will be taken up at the end of the meeting.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 00:38:49
    And I'd like to request that
  • 00:38:54
    Item L be taken up a little later, please.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:38:58
    Item L. So item G is the resolution special permit for increased density at 1311 Mortland Street, and item L is the ordinance regarding the enhanced speeding fines.
  • 00:39:06
    Any other items be removed?
  • 00:39:09
    Or is there a motion to approve the remaining items?
  • 00:39:12
    I'll move the consent agenda as amended.
  • 00:39:14
    Second.
  • 00:39:15
    Please indicate your vote.
  • 00:39:19
    I don't think our Board's working tonight.
  • 00:39:21
    Oh, there it goes.
  • 00:39:22
    Okay, thank you.
  • 00:39:24
    Okay, first item on our regular agenda tonight is an appeal regarding Board of Architectural Review decision regarding Pavilion sign Mary Joy Scala and Fred Wolf.
  • 00:39:36
    And Mary Joy, take it away.
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 00:39:42
    Mr. Mayor, this is
  • 00:39:45
    A request from Charles Hill Pavilion, LLC.
  • 00:39:48
    As the applicant, there appear in one condition of the BAR approval of a new sign for the pavilion that the sign must be turned 90 degrees away from the mall, and I'll explain that.
  • 00:39:58
    I'll present the staff report.
  • 00:39:59
    Kirby Hutto will represent the applicant, and the BAR's position will be presented by Fred Wolf, the chair of the BAR.
  • 00:40:07
    The applicant obtained BAR approval for a monument sign that contains a liquid crystal display LCD screen at the main entrance to the pavilion.
  • 00:40:16
    The pavilion currently does not have a permanent sign.
  • 00:40:20
    It's to be located behind the slate bench at the east end of the mall.
  • 00:40:24
    And it's purposely approved to be closer to the main entrance, not centered on the mall.
  • 00:40:31
    And the sign is four feet wide, six feet tall.
  • 00:40:34
    It includes a 32 inch LCD screen for advertising purposes.
  • 00:40:39
    A cover panel which will be securely fastened to cover the screen will be in place except during event hours.
  • 00:40:47
    and as I said, it was approved by the BAR April 15th and with the modification that the sign be turned 90 degrees so that its long dimension is not perpendicular but is parallel to the long dimension of the mall so that the LCD screen is actually covered and that it cannot be viewed from the mall directly.
  • 00:41:15
    So the applicant is appealing that one condition that the sign be turned 90 degrees so that it does not face the mall.
  • 00:41:23
    And I should mention also, the BAR's action took place in April, but in February was when this whole process started.
  • 00:41:31
    At that meeting, the applicant, excuse me, the BAR deferred the application 7 to 0.
  • 00:41:38
    They asked the applicant to move the sign closer to the entrance not centered on the mall and they asked to see plans for a cover if he decided to pursue the LCD screen.
  • 00:41:47
    But at that meeting it was pointed out that there was not enough votes at that meeting to approve it even with a cover.
  • 00:41:56
    But the applicant pursued it and in March he came back and the BAR made a motion to approve it as presented
  • 00:42:03
    with it moved closer to the entrance and with the cover, but that motion did not pass.
  • 00:42:08
    It failed three to four.
  • 00:42:10
    So no action was actually taken.
  • 00:42:11
    The applicant wanted to appeal it.
  • 00:42:14
    He thought it was denied, but there was no action.
  • 00:42:16
    So it went on to the April meeting, at which meeting there was this compromise proposed to turn it 90 degrees.
  • 00:42:24
    and that was approved five to two.
  • 00:42:27
    As far as staff recommendations, identifying the pavilion is very appropriate.
  • 00:42:33
    There is not one there now.
  • 00:42:34
    Monument signs are not permitted in the downtown architectural design control district because they are suburban in character and not appropriate downtown, but in the case of the pavilion, there's no building there.
  • 00:42:45
    So in order to identify it, it was thought that, and since it's on city property, it's a special case,
  • 00:42:51
    that it was appropriate to put a monument sign there in the grass area to identify the pavilion.
  • 00:42:57
    As far as LCD screens, the sign elements doesn't really speak to them.
  • 00:43:02
    There are prohibitions against signs that move or have flashing lights.
  • 00:43:07
    Off-premises signs are prohibited, which advertise services, goods, establishments, entertainment, which occurs off-site.
  • 00:43:15
    and also any sign that produces sound is prohibited.
  • 00:43:18
    Also, internally illuminated signs are not permitted in the downtown district.
  • 00:43:23
    So all those things you could say describes an LCD screen but it's not specifically prohibited.
  • 00:43:29
    The BAR had concerns about approving the sign with the LCD screen because it would set a precedent on the mall and they were also concerned because the types of advertising displayed on the LCD screen couldn't be controlled.
  • 00:43:40
    There are several television screens currently visible on the mall, but they're all within buildings.
  • 00:43:45
    They're behind glass, and so we don't regulate those.
  • 00:43:50
    In summary, the reason for the BAO's condition was to maintain the historic character of the mall so that people enjoying the mall not participating in the musical event would not be subject to the flickering advertising images that may appear at the end of the mall on the screen.
  • 00:44:05
    I'd be happy to answer any questions.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:44:08
    Any questions?
  • 00:44:11
    I had a couple.
  • 00:44:12
    In the applicant's letter, he references the fact that he would be allowed, or the pavilion would be allowed, to have LCD screens inside the pavilion.
  • 00:44:20
    Is that correct?
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 00:44:21
    I don't know what the lease says.
  • 00:44:23
    He was talking about during an event, if he put them up during the show and took them down afterward, in other words, they weren't permanently in place like a sign, that he felt that he could do that.
  • 00:44:33
    And that may be possible under the lease, I don't know.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:44:36
    And there was another comment made, and I forget who made it, that one of the ideas being kicked around for the renovation of the downtown mall had to do with LCD screens in kiosks.
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 00:44:46
    And I understood that that was eliminated as a suggestion.
• • 00:44:50
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:44:52
    Any other questions before we move on?
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 00:44:56
    It says here that the LCD is a 32 inch.
  • 00:44:58
    Can you put that in like width and height?
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 00:45:02
    32 wide and the height, I'm not sure.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 00:45:06
    Was it 32 diagonally?
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 00:45:08
    Oh, I'm sorry.
  • 00:45:09
    It may be.
  • 00:45:10
    Yeah, I don't know.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:45:16
    Okay.
  • 00:45:16
    Okay.
  • 00:45:20
    So Mr. Hutto is next.
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 00:45:32
    I'm Kirby Hutko, General Manager of the Pavilion and the applicant in this case.
  • 00:45:36
    I think most of the points we raised were laid out in the letter that I sent to Council.
  • 00:45:42
    I would like to talk a little bit about the LCD display.
  • 00:45:44
    We actually got this idea by looking at, as you approach the mall at night, looking at the Transit Center, you see the three LCDs that run 24-7 and ours is designed to be lined up with that.
  • 00:45:58
    so that it sort of fits in with how you perceive that coming down the mall.
  • 00:46:04
    I think that we need to note that these types of displays are not unique on the mall.
  • 00:46:08
    You do have one in the Paramount Theater.
  • 00:46:10
    You have one in the Seaville office.
  • 00:46:12
    They are behind a window, but it is part of the experience of walking down the mall at night as you see these types of displays.
  • 00:46:20
    Most importantly, I want to make sure everybody understands, we're only talking about this display being uncovered and visible during pavilion events, less than 250 hours a year.
  • 00:46:31
    It would not be open all the time.
  • 00:46:34
    If you walk by during the day, you would not even know that there's a display in there.
  • 00:46:38
    We simply designed it to go inside the sign as a way to safely secure it, have it available for when we do want to run
  • 00:46:47
    Our message is just during the Pavilion events, but it is not something that's going to be visible all the time.
  • 00:46:54
    And again, I think the design of our sign is really designed to be the marquee for the Pavilion, to allow people to know what's coming up, what are the events that are going to be happening in the future.
  • 00:47:06
    And we felt that our design solved that problem for us and also was a good design to fit into the East End of the Mall.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:47:14
    And just to, once again, you're not talking about audio, this is going to be silent.
  • 00:47:20
    Oh no, no audio, just video.
  • 00:47:21
    Correct.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:47:22
    I have a question.
  • 00:47:23
    What would be an advertisement on the screen?
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 00:47:27
    Mainly upcoming performances.
  • 00:47:29
    We would also have sponsor messages.
  • 00:47:31
    Like what?
  • 00:47:33
    Well, you know, Budweiser is our main sponsor, so we would have their safe driving message running.
  • 00:47:42
    Down the road, we have shows that are sponsored by different radio stations.
  • 00:47:45
    We may put their logo up.
  • 00:47:48
    This is the type of thing that most musical venues are doing these days because the sponsorship money really helps to make the financial plan work.
  • 00:47:58
    But we're open to any type of restrictions that council may want to
  • 00:48:04
    to look at on that, we just think that having the display permanently installed rather than us having to bring it out and take it down every performance is a little bit more efficient way for us to operate.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 00:48:19
    Thank you.
  • 00:48:21
    Seriously, and this is a 32 inch.
  • 00:48:24
    32 inch diagonal.
  • 00:48:29
    A device that's encased in a cabinet, I guess, is what, 48, approximately 48 feet wide and 72 inches tall, about four by six.
  • 00:48:39
    Four by six, right.
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 00:48:42
    Okay.
  • 00:48:42
    The video portion is just, I think if you've got the... Yeah, that's what I'm looking at.
  • 00:48:47
    It's just that central section of the sign.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 00:48:49
    Now at the top, I notice you've got your logo there, the Charlottesville Pavilion.
  • 00:48:53
    Is that lit or not, it may seem?
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 00:48:54
    No, none of this is lit.
  • 00:48:55
    There's no lights, there's no
  • 00:48:58
    You know, the only thing that would be powered within it would be the video terminal.
  • 00:49:02
    And again, that's only going to be during periods that are defined as pavilion event periods within our lease.
  • 00:49:10
    So what would that be a couple of hours before it starts until it concludes?
  • 00:49:14
    Until it concludes, correct.
  • 00:49:16
    But based upon our scheduling for the last several years, we're talking about less than 250 hours a year total.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 00:49:22
    Could you be specific about
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 00:49:25
    It's two hours before gates open to the public through the conclusion of the event Typically our gates on weeknights are 6 o'clock So the event period as defined under the lease actually starts at 4
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:49:49
    Is it fairly routine that you have tents and other things set up in the area in front of the pavilion to where people just walking down the mall wouldn't even necessarily see this sign?
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 00:50:00
    Correct.
  • 00:50:02
    By positioning it off the main access of the mall, it actually is going to be blocked by the general public outside of the gates by our box office structure, which I don't know if you all have seen it this year, we've got a new one which is a lot more
  • 00:50:16
    Substantial in size in the previous 10 by 2010 that we used in the past.
  • 00:50:21
    So I think it's the type of thing that you're really not going to have that visibility from outside or if you're just walking down the mall.
  • 00:50:29
    Whereas for our purposes, we want it to be visible as soon as the patron comes in our gates so that if we have specific policies for that night's show or something that's different, we're able to get that message out to them.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:50:43
    Any other questions for Mr. Hutto?
  • 00:50:46
    Thank you very much.
  • 00:50:47
    Mr. Wolf.
• • SPEAKER_14
  • 00:50:51
    Good evening, Mayor, members of the City Council.
  • 00:50:55
    My name is Fred Wolf.
  • 00:50:56
    I'm the chair of the BAR.
  • 00:50:58
    I want to say that first of all, Mr. Huddah is right.
  • 00:51:02
    We do have a number of instances on the mall where we have LCD screens which are inside businesses or different display windows and I think that's a reality that we confront, which is that we can only regulate so far and there's a point at which we can't reach inside.
  • 00:51:16
    businesses and start to address that.
  • 00:51:19
    I think that our concern was that the way that this sign was being addressed was becoming more of a billboard as opposed to the type of signage that can occur on a business traditionally on the Mall.
  • 00:51:34
    There were concerns not only about the LCD, which was a primary concern, but I think that there were concerns as well.
  • 00:51:41
    about the scale of the sign when you consider that it sits up on the grass area behind the bench.
  • 00:51:46
    And so the sign at four feet by six feet, which is already elevated up 24 inches to 30 inches above the mall level, begins to create something that is quite tall.
  • 00:51:58
    And that the design elements of the sign, I think there was more discussion amongst the board about the design elements relating to the transit center as opposed to the pavilion.
  • 00:52:09
    and whether or not those things should borrow from one another.
  • 00:52:12
    I personally think that it makes sense because I see those things working together in concert, no pun intended.
  • 00:52:18
    But the ultimate thing was the sort of moving imagery, the color, the inability to control the graphics on the signage.
  • 00:52:29
    And so after the proposal, as it was presented by the applicant, was not receiving enough support to pass through the BAR.
  • 00:52:39
    the compromise of turning it and running it perpendicular to the arched walkway which really describes the edge of the pavilion spaces, the way the patrons move around the top of the pavilion making it perpendicular to that so that if somebody walks along that arch they confront it frontally in the same way that
  • 00:53:00
    signs which are hung off the side of a building to announce a business work in our signage program all around downtown seemed like a way to avoid the impact of the sign in terms of its visual clutter and any type of unintended consequences on the mall as being a kind of billboard at the end that terminates the mall and still make it integral to the experience of those people using the amphitheater.
  • 00:53:30
    I think that the BAR was very sympathetic to the applicant's issues of promotion and sponsorship and certainly wants the pavilion to be successful.
  • 00:53:38
    But I think that from an issue of trying to make this one piece of signage not become a monument, so to speak, at the end of the Mall, and to not overtake that terminus as the kind of arrival point marked by a sign, our first move was to try and shift it off center and locate it so it was more
  • 00:54:01
    integrally connected with the walkway down into the pavilion space.
  • 00:54:06
    And the second suggestion, this is where the compromise came from that we felt like was a reasonable way to address this, was turning it so that you would only see the thin end of the sign and the signage would actually work in concert with the people walking along that radius walkway at the top of the pavilion.
  • 00:54:24
    And so that was the thinking behind that compromise, which actually received then
  • 00:54:29
    Not unanimous support still, but 5 to 2.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:54:34
    Do you think the same proposal would have been made had there not been an LCD screen involved in this?
• • SPEAKER_14
  • 00:54:43
    Do I think that the board would have supported having it face the mall?
  • 00:54:51
    I always hesitate to speak for the entire board because I think that's one of the important things about what we do is we communicate when we're up there and we come to a decision jointly.
  • 00:55:01
    But I do know that the issue of the screen and the precedent it sets and already the sort of issues created by the screens that exist inside businesses behind storefront windows
  • 00:55:13
    was of great concern.
  • 00:55:14
    And a mitigating factor was, as Mary Joy pointed out, that this is not actually a building per se in the same context as all the other properties on the mall.
  • 00:55:24
    And so trying to find a different way to allow them that opportunity without having the pavilion sort of take over and usurp that end of the mall any more than it needs in the sense of operating a business and all of the great public functions that happen down there.
  • 00:55:43
    I think that there's always been a point of the BER that there needs to be a careful balance between that area as public space that operates for everyone, particularly when the pavilion isn't in session and have activities going on, and then how does it sort of switch over carefully and become a private venue
  • 00:56:00
    that has paid-for seats and sponsors and other things.
  • 00:56:04
    And how do you balance that without all of a sudden making it feel like the space has been privatized too much?
  • 00:56:10
    And I think that's an important issue when looking at that signage for us.
  • 00:56:14
    And I think that maybe while it wasn't spoken, I think that that was an inherent underlying issue that probably drove the number of considerations.
  • 00:56:23
    Certainly mine.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:56:26
    Any other questions for Mr. Wolf?
  • 00:56:29
    Thank you very much.
  • 00:56:30
    Do I have another question?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:56:32
    Was it permitted to you without an LCD screen?
• • SPEAKER_14
  • 00:56:38
    No.
  • 00:56:38
    We asked, I think that, if I recall, it was asked if that would be acceptable and that was not going to be, I don't believe that that was going to be an acceptable compromise to have the sign without an LCD.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:57:00
    I'll just wait for it to come.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:57:03
    It's not acceptable from the applicant.
  • 00:57:05
    From the applicant, yes.
  • 00:57:09
    Ms. Edwards, do you have a question?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:57:11
    No, not yet.
  • 00:57:13
    Let me try a question.
  • 00:57:19
    The answer is to follow the rules and regulations of the city and ordinance of the city of Charlottesville.
  • 00:57:26
    In the downturn, my understanding is that no internally-elected
  • 00:57:30
    Well, we had a discussion about whether or not there would be moving imagery on the
• • SPEAKER_14
  • 00:57:53
    and the answer was no.
  • 00:57:54
    I think Mary Joyce pointed out that our ordinance is somewhat vague in terms of whether or not LCDs in specific are not allowed.
  • 00:58:06
    Historically, we have been very careful about not only monument signs, which I feel like we are making a concession and a compromise on, but signs that are backlit or have internal lighting,
  • 00:58:21
    The fact that this was connected with a particular use period and in its downtime or a period of non-use would be closed off and appear inanimate.
  • 00:58:37
    We felt like that, and I guess given the applicant's observation that if they selected they could place as many non-permanent
  • 00:58:50
    moving screen images or portable signs with LCDs and graphics around the site as they were able or desired.
  • 00:59:00
    I wouldn't say that we were convinced or convinced to go against our guidelines, but I think we felt like this was a compromise that seemed like it fit and made sense with the activity of the pavilion, what they needed to do.
  • 00:59:14
    and what we were trying to protect in terms of them all.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:59:17
    So if next week you get a role signed from this one in downtown area with LCD string, would you approve that?
• • SPEAKER_14
  • 00:59:26
    I think what we've seen is that it depends on the exact condition and the way it's placed and the fact that this would be concealed most of the time.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:59:39
    You can be only half pregnant or fully pregnant or not pregnant?
• • SPEAKER_14
  • 00:59:44
    Well, perhaps we should revisit the guidelines.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:59:48
    I think so.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:59:50
    Thank you, Mr. Wolf.
• • SPEAKER_14
  • 00:59:51
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 00:59:55
    We will now open up for discussion.
  • 00:59:59
    Who would like to start?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:00:00
    I would like to make a few comments.
  • 01:00:07
    Mr. Huja.
  • 01:00:08
    operations to have a sign and I have an objection to having the whole sign which shows what shows up going on and I would not even have objection to having the sign facing directly them all, personally.
  • 01:00:25
    But my concern is that we are setting a precedent by allowing LCD
  • 01:00:33
    which is totally contrary to the same ordinance at least as I read it and I read it a few times since I talked a little bit later to you so that you will see if there is some different interpretation to that.
  • 01:00:53
    I have it right here, okay.
  • 01:00:59
    Santa Barbara is to have any sign that moves, contains, or consists of searchlights, beaconings, strobe lights, flashing lights, lights, a single form of illumination offering a sign of some kind.
  • 01:01:12
    In addition, internally, illuminated signs are not permitted in the D.C. district.
  • 01:01:17
    How can you agree?
  • 01:01:19
    So, it is entirely a sign.
  • 01:01:22
    At least I could argue so.
  • 01:01:26
    My prediction is that there is not only
  • 01:01:28
    What is the angle which is being appealed to?
  • 01:01:31
    One objection is that we, who are the property owners of this property, are setting a precedent contrary to our own awareness and promoting irretrievance of the huge amount of control, like beer.
  • 01:01:46
    Is there a proper way of promoting our public property?
  • 01:01:49
    If our public land is human, is the kind of precedent we are set for other people to do?
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 01:01:59
    I guess I would really favor the sign the way it was originally positioned and I guess I would just add to that if I'd have to put it at an angle, I don't know if I'd want to put it up, frankly.
  • 01:02:26
    So that's kind of where I am.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:02:28
    So you support the appeal, basically?
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 01:02:32
    Yes, I support it.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:02:35
    Dr. Brown, Ms. Edwards?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 01:02:39
    Was it too late for you to answer the question?
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:02:40
    No, go ahead.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 01:02:42
    Of the applicant?
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:02:43
    Go ahead.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 01:02:43
    Okay.
  • 01:02:50
    I wanted to kind of revisit the comment that you made, because I'm reading through the BAR minutes from April 15th.
  • 01:02:58
    and he would sit here and the applicant explained that he could under the current lease place as many temporary LCD displays as he wanted to during performances wherever he wanted them.
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 01:03:12
    Within the defined event area within our lease, there's no restrictions.
  • 01:03:18
    This past Saturday night for the Festival of the Photograph, we had a 30 foot by 40 foot screen that had images projected on it that was the entire event.
  • 01:03:28
    We've had other artists that have brought in video as part of their performance that's been on the stage and certainly as we look around through other venues and the way that marketing is going these days, having video terminals within a venue is becoming an industry standard and we probably will be looking at temporary video if we're not allowed to put this in as a permanent installation.
  • 01:03:56
    And I guess, you know, I could even make an argument that if we build the sign and leave a cavity within it, I would say that I would still be within my rights on show nights to put a video terminal there and at the end of the show to remove it according to the way that I read our lease.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 01:04:14
    Okay, and I guess you kind of answered my questions.
  • 01:04:17
    I was wondering, when you did that this previous week and logistically, what was that like?
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 01:04:23
    For a screen of that size, that was a four-hour rigging call with stagehands.
  • 01:04:30
    The total crew of about eight people to put it up and about the same to take it down on Saturday night.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 01:04:37
    Logistically, in terms of temporary ones that you could possibly put out, what would that look like?
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 01:04:45
    Well, with smaller ones we could probably come up with some sort of a wheeled structure that just comes in and out like all of our concession stands and all of the entry gates, the box office structure.
  • 01:05:01
    I guess certainly it can be done on a temporary basis.
  • 01:05:05
    Our original thought was that if we had this in, it's something that could be available for city council or parks and recs to use to promote other events that are taking place at the pavilion, maybe even have the city council agenda up during the daytime.
  • 01:05:18
    I think we got so much pushback from BAR.
  • 01:05:21
    We came back with the compromise of having the cover so that the terminal essentially completely disappeared except during the period of time
  • 01:05:31
    where we're under control of that space through our lease.
  • 01:05:36
    And that was the way that we were trying to come up with the compromise.
  • 01:05:41
    And I guess that goes back to Mr. Huja's question, which is no, we never did submit a signed proposal without the LCD because we thought that by having the panel to cover it during non-event periods that we were reaching that hopefully happy medium with BAR.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 01:06:02
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:06:08
    Comments?
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 01:06:11
    So what do you think?
  • 01:06:14
    I want to hear from you.
  • 01:06:19
    I think this is a complicated one.
  • 01:06:20
    I think it's kind of an area which is, you know, as we move into, it's an area that the sign wordants didn't anticipate.
  • 01:06:30
    and it didn't anticipate it for a couple reasons.
  • 01:06:32
    One is that the pavilion's not a structure, it's not a building.
  • 01:06:35
    One is because it's sort of a new technology being undertaken.
  • 01:06:40
    And so I have to say, I sort of feel like I, I'd like to kind of think about it some more, but I'll tell you what I think now.
  • 01:06:53
    I think I agree with Julian.
  • 01:06:54
    I think that, you know, I think that
  • 01:06:59
    There's something to be said for the pavilion having a sign, which is clear as you walk towards the pavilion, not something you have to go up right next to and turn and look at, that identifies it as the pavilion.
  • 01:07:10
    I do think it's an exception to the monument aspect just because it isn't a building.
  • 01:07:19
    It doesn't have a chance to put their sign on.
  • 01:07:21
    It's also not a building where it has a window.
  • 01:07:23
    A lot of what we are comparing it to are other buildings that have windows.
  • 01:07:29
    So they can put posters in the windows and they can have TVs in the windows and they can do lots of other things in the windows.
  • 01:07:35
    So as reluctant as I am to overturn the BAR, because I think that they have enormous respect for the work they do, I think in this case I'm supportive of the appeal.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:07:53
    I'm still thinking.
  • 01:07:57
    I am also sympathetic to the desire of the pavilion to have the sign facing the mound, particularly when it's not going to be seen by people walking up and down the mall because it will be blocked by the box office, as you call it.
  • 01:08:15
    And the fact that
  • 01:08:18
    You could legally, if this statement is correct, they could legally wheel out a screen in the very same spot and show videos there every time they have a performance anyway.
  • 01:08:30
    So to me, if that's true, and I'm assuming that that statement is true,
• • SPEAKER_25
  • 01:08:38
    I mean, it's governed by the terms of the lease, so I don't have that lease in front of me.
  • 01:08:48
    I'm sorry, I was aware that we needed it tonight, but yes, whatever
  • 01:08:52
    It's something that's true.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:09:05
    It doesn't bother me to have it there.
  • 01:09:08
    I am troubled by the concern that Mr. Huja has raised about commercialization of public space.
  • 01:09:14
    I don't like the idea of having beer commercials broadcast on city property.
  • 01:09:22
    and not that I want to be the monitor of every commercial there, but that piece does give me pause.
  • 01:09:30
    But in terms of using that to advertise upcoming pavilion events, as you say, that's pretty standard practice in performance venues these days.
  • 01:09:39
    I'm inclined to support the appeal, but Ms. Edwards, if you have anything you'd like to add?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 01:09:47
    I'm struggling with it because I'm trying to think from
  • 01:09:53
    Kind of an outside perspective.
  • 01:09:55
    I was in town just visiting for the first time.
  • 01:09:58
    I think sometimes we make decisions based on what we already know.
  • 01:10:02
    We know the pavilion's there.
  • 01:10:05
    We know things are going on.
  • 01:10:06
    And I don't want to make a decision just based on this kind of in-town kind of thinking and kind of trying to open it up to the idea that if someone was visiting
  • 01:10:19
    for the first time and was driving down Avon Street and said, what is that thing over there?
  • 01:10:24
    Because I didn't think to see it's just this great big tent kind of structure.
  • 01:10:29
    You really wouldn't have any idea of what that thing is unless there is some sort of a sign there once you approach the mall.
  • 01:10:38
    So to give you that, there isn't anything there that gives an indication of what that structure actually is and the events that take place.
  • 01:10:48
    I do struggle with the size of the sign and just kind of echoing some of the things that Mr. Huja said about the ordinance and adhering to that.
  • 01:11:00
    and also if this is even necessary, considering that the temporary LCDs can be put up during those times.
  • 01:11:14
    But then again, if the temporary ones are there, it doesn't really serve the same purpose of having someone that's visiting the mall for the first time understand the magnitude of the things that go on at the pavilion.
  • 01:11:25
    So this is hard.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:11:30
    especially since I just found out where, you know, the historic markers would be much smaller than this sign even at the end of the mall, so it's kind of hard I have not read the leads though, obviously, so I can't comment on the leads except that the leads were signed by the city, it was signed legally it was a complaint of the owners, which at least existed at that time and I was still playing the record at that time
  • 01:12:00
    Secondly, I think the honest word reads right now, internally related sites are not permitted in the EDC District, there is no question about it.
  • 01:12:10
    And thirdly, retransplant of beer really was a great deal, and alcoholic beer is not a good example to some public property.
  • 01:12:21
    I would personally rather object to their having a sign with three billboards like small billboards which they suggest so they can have the wall facing the wall.
  • 01:12:30
    I would not object to that personally.
  • 01:12:32
    So I would be very invested because of those reasons.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:12:39
    Okay, I wonder if we can get some legal advice or staff advice on this notion of whether or not we would be able to restrict the images to non-commercial announcements, upcoming events, etc.
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 01:12:56
    I would defer to the city attorney representative but I did want to get a word in that perhaps you should, if you do approve it, that you should carefully distinguish this property from other properties downtown and why you're allowing it here and not somewhere else.
• • SPEAKER_25
  • 01:13:18
    Well, I think that there is a concern about the fact that this is on public property and to the extent that there's a sign there, you're creating a public forum.
  • 01:13:29
    Again, it's going to impact the lease, what they're allowed to do within their performance time period.
  • 01:13:36
    I mean, to the extent if you want to defer that question, we can do some more research on it.
  • 01:13:41
    But the sign itself, you may not be able to put
  • 01:13:47
    that many restrictions on its use after it's erected.
  • 01:13:53
    So I think that is an issue.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:13:57
    Is the applicant willing to volunteer to not have commercial messages broadcast on this video screen on public property?
  • 01:14:08
    I mean, I assume you can put up your temporary LCDs to broadcast your commercials inside the tent if you wanted.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 01:14:21
    Can you ask another question?
  • 01:14:23
    So we're inhibiting the freedom of speech to the sign?
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:14:27
    That's correct.
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 01:14:29
    I would want to refer to my lease before I answer that question and I think we have to draw a specific line there because if I'm promoting a concert and I'm trying to sell tickets to that concert that's absolutely a commercial message so I think that's a
  • 01:14:44
    I'd want to get a little advice before I make that decision.
• • SPEAKER_25
  • 01:14:48
    I really think you're going to have to refer back to the terms of the lease to figure out what types of restrictions you could put on there and what kinds of rights the city has given to the pavilion during operation hours if you're going to try to put that type of restriction on.
  • 01:15:05
    I mean, this is a de novo appeal.
  • 01:15:07
    You can put restrictions on, but sort of an analysis of the lease, I don't think.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:15:13
    I think this is not a comment on anybody in the room, but I think it's disappointing we're having this entire discussion and nobody has a copy of the lease to know what we're bound to and what we're guided by.
  • 01:15:24
    But anyhow, so I take this as there's a sense that maybe we need to...
• • SPEAKER_25
  • 01:15:32
    I mean, if you're trying to put a restriction on what they're using and they're not willing to voluntarily do it, I think you're going to need to look at what your rights and responsibilities are under the terms of the lease.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:15:43
    Is there any opposition to taking this back and looking at it again at our next meeting?
  • 01:15:49
    Is this even legally permissible?
• • SPEAKER_25
  • 01:15:52
    Well, it is legally permissible.
  • 01:15:54
    The VAR has taken action on it.
  • 01:15:56
    If you defer the answer, basically it's under the current provisions it's in limbo unless you take it back up and that's really the problem.
  • 01:16:08
    they will have to either decide to go back to the BA or the different proposal or you haven't taken action in any way.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:16:18
    That's all I'm asking.
  • 01:16:21
    So we can defer if we want to.
  • 01:16:24
    Unless there's a sense among a majority of counselors to go ahead and approve the appeal as it stands.
  • 01:16:33
    I'm not hearing it clear.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 01:16:37
    I'd probably be inclined to approve it.
  • 01:16:41
    I think there might be some value in looking at the lease.
  • 01:16:44
    I think there's a good reason to defer it simply to look at the lease.
  • 01:16:47
    I'm not sure that I would want to restrict.
  • 01:16:51
    I think it would be pretty difficult to restrict content, but I think we could see what we could work out on that.
  • 01:17:00
    considering the length of time when it's going to be run, which is going to be only during pavilion events, only from 4 to midnight, and pretty much, you know, from the size of the screen, it's only going to be people, only can really see us who have purchased a ticket to be in the event.
  • 01:17:17
    I don't have a lot of concern about the types of what they're showing on that.
  • 01:17:22
    It's not, there's no audio.
  • 01:17:24
    I don't think it could be further down the mall.
  • 01:17:27
    You would see that there's a flickering screen perhaps, but I don't believe that you could actually tell exactly what was on it.
  • 01:17:35
    So I'd be prepared to move forward if that was your desire, but also think that since a number of questions have come up about the lease, we could also take a look at the lease and consider it next time.
  • 01:17:46
    I'll leave it to you, Mr. Mayor.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 01:17:48
    Yes, I guess now you're still back to the, given the time frame that you're talking about,
  • 01:17:55
    I'm still revisiting the temporary LCD displays.
  • 01:18:01
    Is that just an unreasonable option?
• • SPEAKER_00
  • 01:18:09
    I think from our perspective, from an operational perspective, the less that you move these screens around the better because you're always running the risk of dropping one and then it's ruined.
  • 01:18:27
    So that was where our idea of let's try to get creative and come up with a way to encase it, enclose it, it's weatherproof, it's vandal proof, it doesn't have to be taken in and out.
  • 01:18:40
    Certainly the cost on these screens are dropping dramatically and maybe in the future they become a little bit less of a financial risk to be moving them in and out.
  • 01:18:54
    What is your pleasure Miss Edwards?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 01:19:14
    I would like to put some closure to this.
  • 01:19:16
    This isn't going to get me better.
  • 01:19:19
    I don't think the girls are going to get me prettier.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 01:19:27
    I'll move that we uphold this appeal, but according to the terms of the proposal that was most recently presented to the BAR in terms of hours of operation, sign of the sign, design of the sign, with the only exception being that it be allowed to be rotated 90 degrees to be seen face on from, that it be placed where it was originally designed to be placed rather than be rotated 90 degrees.
  • 01:19:57
    I'll second that.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:19:59
    Any further discussion?
  • 01:20:02
    Please indicate your vote.
  • 01:20:06
    Mr. Huja?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:20:07
    That's what I did.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:20:13
    Thank you very much.
  • 01:20:13
    The motion carries and we'll now move on to the next item on our agenda.
  • 01:20:21
    Thank you Mr. Wolf, Ms. Scowler, Mr. Hutham.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 01:20:25
    Mr. Tolbert's going to start an introduction and then we'll move into a PowerPoint presentation in a few minutes.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:20:32
    Okay, so the next item is a report on the downtown mall restoration project and we're going to start with a PowerPoint presentation from Mr. Tolbert.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 01:20:44
    Mr. Tolbert?
  • 01:20:45
    Yes, there is a PowerPoint.
  • 01:20:46
    I can go ahead and as you're moving down then we can, most of my introductory remarks are in the PowerPoint, so.
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 01:20:55
    What's that?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 01:21:07
    Oh yeah.
  • 01:21:28
    Where's Craig when you need him?
  • 01:21:39
    One, two, where's council?
  • 01:21:42
    One, two...
  • 01:21:51
    I'm missing a few council members.
  • 01:21:56
    Go ahead and get started now as we hopefully get the bugs worked out.
  • 01:22:01
    Council, we're making this presentation really because we're at the 35% point in the design of the project, and we wanted you to have accurate information as to where we are, hear about your comments, and hear about the things that are actually being proposed for the mall rehabilitation.
  • 01:22:19
    And there's been a lot of community comment, a lot of issues been raised.
  • 01:22:23
    Joe Schenstock from William & Anne is here and he and I are going to try to address as many of those things that have been raised as questions as we go through the presentation as we can but be happy to answer any questions when we get through and expect those.
  • 01:22:38
    We presented to you back in February and when we did that
  • 01:22:41
    You had some issues and some concerns and we tried to listen to those and I think we have.
  • 01:22:46
    One of the things that you asked us to do was keep it simple and not make a lot of changes.
  • 01:22:51
    We had proposed at that time a couple of large new fountains in the mall and some other changes.
  • 01:22:59
    and you ask that we simplify things and we not make major changes.
  • 01:23:04
    You'll see that we've taken those out, the only exception being the area in front of the army where as an ad alternate, a bid alternate, we have at this point continued to go forward with a new fountain that only is an ad alternate and only is if we could sell that fountain to somebody that would be willing to pay for it other than the taxpayers.
  • 01:23:23
    If nobody is willing to pay for it then
  • 01:23:25
    We have the regular design that would not include the fountain.
  • 01:23:30
    So that's a general comment.
  • 01:23:33
    We heard you were trying to keep this as simple as we can.
  • 01:23:38
    There's been a lot of concern raised about the mile project and the speed at which we can get it done because of the work that went on 3rd Street.
  • 01:23:46
    I think I've explained this a number of times, but just to say that the problem on 3rd Street was that there had never been anything done there and we had to dig it out completely.
  • 01:23:57
    We found utilities that I think Jefferson probably put in.
  • 01:24:01
    They were so old.
  • 01:24:02
    and they were in places that we didn't know where they were.
  • 01:24:05
    And that took a lot of time to deal with it.
  • 01:24:08
    Even the best survey we had, we found problems.
  • 01:24:11
    We also had to put the slab in and get the slab poured and then work above it.
  • 01:24:16
    And I think if you observe that project, you saw that once the slab went in, the project finished pretty quickly.
  • 01:24:22
    Down in the Mall, the work that we're proposing here, we're going to leave the slab alone.
  • 01:24:27
    The slab will stay in place, it's not going to be dug up, it's not going to be destroyed.
  • 01:24:31
    The only thing that will happen to the slab is it will trench it in places for the electrical conduit, and if we go ahead with the Wi-Fi, we will trench for that.
  • 01:24:41
    We may have to break it in a place or two for utilities, but by and large, the utilities underneath it are in good shape.
  • 01:24:47
    A few service lines may have to be adjusted.
  • 01:24:50
    We may have to break it in a few places for that.
  • 01:24:52
    But otherwise we don't intend to touch the slab.
  • 01:24:55
    The slab is there and we need to keep it in place because we can't do this product in a time frame.
  • 01:25:01
    We've talked about if we touch it and there's no need to.
  • 01:25:06
    There was a report done by Law Engineering several years ago to look at the subsurface and they said the slab was intact and was in good shape.
  • 01:25:15
    We talked to you when we came before about a children's play area.
  • 01:25:19
    You raised a question about maybe instead of a children's fountain we do a play area.
  • 01:25:24
    We have thought about at this point, we've had a lot of comments on that as A being a change from the original, B being something that would junk up or clutter up the mall more than it is, and we have had second thoughts about that and at this point
  • 01:25:41
    do not have anything there for that.
  • 01:25:42
    We've had some discussions with the design center about doing a children's charrette, but we haven't generated a lot of interest, we've generated a lot of opposition from some of the downtown merchants about that, and so unless you want to talk further with us about that, we really didn't intend to move that forward.
  • 01:25:59
    The design does have two small fountains proposed in addition to the ones that are down there.
  • 01:26:06
    They're in a couple of the blocks where there is no fountain or anything and they're there.
  • 01:26:13
    They are intended to be the very small ones like what's in front of Millers or the Knit, not a major fountain.
  • 01:26:21
    The trees.
  • 01:26:23
    There's been a lot of discussion about that and a lot of concern that we were proposing to take up all the trees or a significant number of them and plant them in patterns unlike what Halpern has done.
  • 01:26:34
    That is not the case.
  • 01:26:35
    There are 21 trees to be removed in the current proposal based on the fact that they're diseased.
  • 01:26:41
    One is already dead in front of Virginia National Bank.
  • 01:26:45
    The intent is to go back in place, in the same pattern, the same place, with the trees that we replaced.
  • 01:26:52
    The large trees in the mall.
  • 01:26:53
    When we get up in front of the Rodney, that area there, that planter where a lot of these are, the red maples, they will come out
  • 01:27:00
    Most of those are diseased and be replanted and not as many in a different pattern, but those are not part of the original Halpern design.
  • 01:27:07
    They are a later addition to the plan.
  • 01:27:10
    We recognize the tree pattern, we understand that, and we don't want to change that tree pattern at all.
  • 01:27:16
    As a matter of fact, you may remember when we had the
  • 01:27:19
    The report done by Torrey Gallas a few years ago, the Carter study, Torrey Gallas recommended that we cut down all the trees and move them out of the center to the edges and create a clear vision line down the middle.
  • 01:27:32
    I think most of us thought that was not a very appropriate response and wanted to keep them like they are.
  • 01:27:38
    And when WRT came in and did their study, then the master plan, they recommended we keep the same trees and we found a way to replace them.
  • 01:27:46
    MMM has been doing that.
  • 01:27:48
    One of the things we want to do is go back with a minimum six-inch caliper.
  • 01:27:52
    When we put them back on the model to make sure that the four or five that we have to take out that they are as big as we could possibly support when they're planted.
  • 01:28:00
    The other plan we've talked about is going ahead and planting smaller trees in a part to have them growing so they can be transplanted as our current trees die so that we don't have to start off a very small caliper.
  • 01:28:11
    and Louisa Shea for extended periods of time.
  • 01:28:15
    We intend to keep the planters and actually add a few more planters.
  • 01:28:18
    Some of the planters that were put on the mall have disappeared.
  • 01:28:22
    We can buy the same exact planter.
  • 01:28:24
    They've been moved other places.
  • 01:28:26
    We want to put planters back and use those.
  • 01:28:28
    That was an integral part of the design.
  • 01:28:29
    We want to keep that.
  • 01:28:32
    There's concrete banding in a lot of places now.
  • 01:28:36
    The original proposal was granite.
  • 01:28:38
    We want to put granite in when we replace it
  • 01:28:41
    It stays and lasts longer and it is the original design and we think it will look better and go back to what was intended when the design was done.
  • 01:28:50
    The concrete that's there, concrete now bending is disintegrated, it's in bad shape in most places and it's not as sustainable as it is today.
  • 01:29:01
    The lights, at one point if you read the WRT report, if you read the WRT report, they recommended changing all the lighting.
  • 01:29:10
    But they are in their initial review, so we don't think that's appropriate in the old part of the mall, the Halperin part.
  • 01:29:15
    We ought to keep the lighting that we have, and so we're going with that.
  • 01:29:19
    One of the issues as we went through this was that our fire trucks need access up and down the mall, and things are different than they were 35 years ago.
  • 01:29:27
    Trucks are bigger, there's a lot more going on, and so we've proposed to raise the lights two feet to give our fire trucks better access to get under them and get around them.
  • 01:29:38
    If we raise them two feet, we can keep a light that looks exactly like it does down there now, except it'll be a new light.
  • 01:29:44
    The three inch poles that are there do not meet wind loading requirements if you raise them two feet.
  • 01:29:49
    and so to raise them two feet we need to get a four inch pole but everything else will look exactly the same.
  • 01:29:56
    They won't be the same, we want to use more energy efficient and dark sky
  • 01:30:04
    We'll have to completely redo the lights to use them, but it will mean we can keep the same fixture.
  • 01:30:20
    But again, we won't have the better access for the fire trucks and fire vehicles that we have now.
  • 01:30:27
    the benches and some of that furniture.
  • 01:30:29
    Those that are down there now are not the original, of course, design.
  • 01:30:34
    You may recall that around 1999, 2000-ish we were having a lot of problems.
  • 01:30:40
    with folks sleeping on the benches and hanging out down there and the police department took them all out.
  • 01:30:45
    I'm not sure where they are at this point but when WRT did their design they came up with a single bench that they felt respected what had been there before and that's what we've gone back in with and we intend to add additional seating as we can in clumps of two and three like they are now but as we can place them in as many places where we had benches previously
  • 01:31:09
    But again, not with the double benches because of public safety issues.
  • 01:31:19
    The plan does talk about public art, additional areas for public art.
  • 01:31:24
    When we did the public process for this project, we heard a lot of comments about public art.
  • 01:31:31
    That public art, people wanted more of it, and so we've got a great program of art in place.
  • 01:31:36
    We thought we'd take advantage of that and provide some opportunities for
  • 01:31:39
    a place from a public art.
  • 01:31:42
    The cafes, one of the things you may have heard that we've talked about is having fixed locations for the cafe boundaries.
  • 01:31:50
    We have two issues with the cafe boundaries.
  • 01:31:52
    One is we've already had one child lose a finger that we know about because those things get turned over.
  • 01:31:58
    One child lost a finger last year from having one at one of the cafes turned over.
  • 01:32:02
    The other is that they move.
  • 01:32:04
    And if you watch the fire truck try to come in the mall, our fire trucks have to have a fireman walk in front of them, at least one fireman, sometimes two, to move them out of the way.
  • 01:32:14
    It greatly slows down the response time.
  • 01:32:17
    The idea we've come up with is to have the same type of system, but one that we could buy in six or eight foot sections, have a sleeve and a brick and put it in and put the boundary around the cafes.
  • 01:32:30
    At the end of the season in November, those would come out, be stored by the cafe operator, and they'd come back out when the cafe season starts again in March.
  • 01:32:40
    They wouldn't be out there permanently.
  • 01:32:42
    The other advantage is we can buy them and build them with ADA compliance.
  • 01:32:46
    Right now, if you walk down the mall, the cafes in the center are just mainly ringed with chains.
  • 01:32:54
    Those chains are not ADA compliant.
  • 01:32:56
    A blind person walking down, walks down with a cane, there's nothing for the cane to detect, and we've had instances where the blind have fallen into
  • 01:33:03
    we worked out a deal with our local blind community where we came in a couple years ago and we had all the cafes adjacent to the buildings in the primary walking area where most of the blind try to walk to put a bottom on them so they can detect them and it's greatly solved the problem and they've put the word out amongst the people that are part of the local blind community that that's where you need to walk, that those are protected but not everybody that comes to the mall is from Charlottesville and so we still have that ADA issue
  • 01:33:32
    The vendors, we're running out of vendor space.
  • 01:33:35
    One of the things we don't have designed yet that we want to do is come up with a proposal to bring that to you of a vendor cart.
  • 01:33:44
    We've talked about it a lot, but something that would be a cart that could be pushed out, taken in, and be the vendor's responsibility but get rid of it.
  • 01:33:52
    the trashy looking tables and the things that are out there and they look good when there's one or two of them but when we have 20 of them out there they cause a problem we don't want to do anything to put the vendors out of business but we got to get a handle on what they look like and where they go they get into the fire lane they get to be issues and
  • 01:34:09
    and again we're getting so many it's crowded.
  • 01:34:12
    I want to now go to my slides and I've talked about some of the things but I want to talk about process just a minute.
  • 01:34:18
    We've been at this now for almost a year.
  • 01:34:20
    We gave notice to proceed to MMM in July of last year.
  • 01:34:24
    And why did we select MMM?
  • 01:34:26
    Well we had WRT do a design for the master plan and they basically gave us the concept.
  • 01:34:35
    They didn't give us construction drawings because that wasn't what we had asked them for.
  • 01:34:38
    So to get documents to bid, we hired MMM to put those together.
  • 01:34:42
    Their team consists of their full-service architecture, landscape architecture, engineering firm, and planning firm, and they have been doing the work with their design professionals to implement the WRT master plan.
  • 01:34:56
    They spent a lot of time gathering information.
  • 01:35:00
    We surveyed them all again, utility survey, the tree survey, and the document review.
  • 01:35:04
    They spent a lot of time reviewing the Halperin plans and some of his writings before they ever started the project.
  • 01:35:13
    As a matter of fact, it's a little late now, but we found
  • 01:35:15
    in some of his old writings a reference to leaving 4th Street open as a vehicular crossing as it would be appropriate.
  • 01:35:21
    I wish I had known that when we were debating that a few months ago, but in their research they even found that.
  • 01:35:28
    They have gotten, as I said earlier, to the 35% design submittal and their final design is ongoing.
  • 01:35:34
    We had a project kickoff meeting in October.
  • 01:35:38
    The B.A.R.
  • 01:35:39
    was the initial presentation, which was more information gathering, was in December.
  • 01:35:43
    We did a business impact survey where we surveyed many, many of the businesses in the mall to find out what their concerns and issues were.
  • 01:35:50
    and then held a series of six stakeholder meetings in January and what's not shown here is we had, those included about four meetings with like the restaurants and the big offices and the retailers and then we had the public meetings to follow that where there was discussion of the proposal and listening to ideas.
  • 01:36:10
    We presented the council as I said in February, BAR in May and now back here tonight.
  • 01:36:17
    I went through the issues and I didn't talk yet about the bricks but I want to hit that again for a second.
  • 01:36:24
    When we talked to you in February we were concerned about the bricks because several reasons.
  • 01:36:29
    One is we hadn't found a place to buy the bricks that are there now.
  • 01:36:33
    The bricks there now are a 4x12 except they're not a true 4x12.
  • 01:36:38
    They're in a 3 to 1 herringbone pattern is the way they're planted.
  • 01:36:42
    and what makes up the 12x4 are the motor joints and give it the 4x12 for the patterning.
  • 01:36:49
    We couldn't find those anywhere but Nebraska, but we kept looking and so we've been looking at a 5x10 and a 4x8 which is what's been out here in front of the mall.
  • 01:37:00
    We now just recently have found out that there is a company, we found one that says they will supply the 4x12 bricks.
  • 01:37:08
    and so we can go with that and we want to get direction from council.
  • 01:37:13
    Only two issues with that now, we've solved the sustainability issue, actually there's three issues I guess, two issues.
  • 01:37:19
    One is they can be made stable, they're not as stable with a three to one aspect as they are as a four by eight or a five by ten.
  • 01:37:27
    They can be made stable enough though we feel that they can handle the foot traffic and on the crossings that we can make them withstand the vehicle traffic.
  • 01:37:37
    We are proposing to lay them in sand.
  • 01:37:39
    The beauty of that is it's very easy to do work and replace them.
  • 01:37:43
    The other issue with them, in addition to the
  • 01:37:47
    The stability, which again is the sustainability, is the cost.
  • 01:37:51
    They are more expensive to use the 4x12 brick.
  • 01:37:55
    It costs about $200,000 more we estimate in the prices we have now to buy them, and a light number to a little bit more for the installation.
  • 01:38:03
    But again,
  • 01:38:05
    If we want to be true to the Halperin design, the 4x12 is the way to go and do that, and incrementally it's less than 10% of the overall project cost, so we believe that that can be, we can do that if that's the desire that council has to stay true to that design.
  • 01:38:25
    We sent out to council a construction estimate and I want to say that, let's go to page two, we've broken it down by blocks and Joe will have a little more detail on
  • 01:38:41
    if you have questions about detail cost.
  • 01:38:44
    This is a very conservative estimate that the engineers have done.
  • 01:38:48
    You'll notice that the estimate is 7.3 million.
  • 01:38:51
    They've put a 25% contingency on it, but they know that their prices are probably very conservative.
  • 01:38:59
    We've got the firm Barton Malloy.
  • 01:39:01
    We talked to you about hiring a construction management firm.
  • 01:39:04
    Barton Malloy has been engaged.
  • 01:39:06
    Their first order of business, their second order of business is reviewing these prices.
  • 01:39:09
    They believe that they're going to be able to come back to us with a price that by the time you add contingencies and everything else stays within the 7.5 million.
  • 01:39:19
    This is again very conservative.
  • 01:39:21
    As Joe said, he didn't want to be the low bidder on this project and have us looking at him and pointing fingers because they gave us an estimate at 7.5 and it came in at 9 million.
  • 01:39:30
    We put that there, we don't think that's the case and we realize that the money is the money and that's it so there's not going to be any options there but Barton Mallow is doing the costing of it now.
  • 01:39:45
    Another point of good news, the first thing Barton Mallow was asked to do was to look at it and see how long it's going to take to build it.
  • 01:39:51
    and you remember that we talked to Council, and I'll get into this one, Joe gets to it a little more, we talked to you about spreading this over five years and the business community went nuts and said we want it done right now.
  • 01:40:01
    Well, Barton Mallory's told us they are confident that we can start this on January 2nd and be finished before the end of April.
  • 01:40:08
    And so, I take it it's good news, Barton Mallory's credentials are they built JPJ under budget and on time, ahead of time, they're doing South Lyon, they've got done a lot of projects, they've got a lot of good track record doing that.
  • 01:40:20
    and so we feel good about that.
  • 01:40:23
    I'll turn it over to Joe to go through a few more of the project details and then we'll be ready for questions.
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 01:40:29
    Jim promised that he was going to steal most of my thunder, which he did, so what I'd like to do now, can you hear me?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 01:40:35
    I need this mic.
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 01:40:51
    I guess what I'd like to do right now is essentially go through with pictures what Jim just went through with words.
  • 01:40:57
    So if we could start here.
  • 01:40:58
    Just a brief general description of the project and how we got where we are.
  • 01:41:02
    Council members, you've seen this before.
  • 01:41:03
    This is pretty much the presentation that I gave to you back at your working session in February.
  • 01:41:08
    It's been refined to reflect what we discovered during the discovery process with the citizens and various stakeholders.
  • 01:41:14
    with BAR and with you folks.
  • 01:41:16
    So it's a refined version of what you've got.
  • 01:41:18
    But to recap, this project is essentially to take an existing, extremely successful project, the installation of the mall, originally designed by Lawrence Halperin in the early 1970s to mid 1970s, and to bring it forward into the current day to identify some elements that perhaps
  • 01:41:36
    were not best practice or were best practice at the time but have been overcome by events and have begun to show some signs of wear over time.
  • 01:41:45
    Specifically, the brick on this project has begun to heave significantly due to the fact that the mortar setting bed has begun to deteriorate due to ion chloride penetration due to icing salts as well as the freeze-thaw heave that results during the winter months.
  • 01:42:04
    At the west end of the mall, down by the Omni, what we're proposing to do there is to, and incidentally, the west end of the mall is not part of the original Halprin design.
  • 01:42:12
    The Halprin design did not come down past Second Street.
  • 01:42:15
    So this is a project that was done as the Omni was put in.
  • 01:42:19
    The original design has a very large planter at the Water Street end and you can see the line work there indicating a decrease in the size of that planter to try to open the viewshed down into the mall as well as opening the third of the mall on Water Street.
  • 01:42:35
    Additional plantings which will be complementary to the original design and appropriate cultivars in the center island there which are more appropriate than the maples that are in there now and are showing significant disease.
  • 01:42:50
    The plaza directly in front of the ice park is currently being considered for an installation of some tribute to Charlottesville Sister Cities.
  • 01:43:02
    I'm keeping a bunch of people away, sorry about that.
  • 01:43:05
    And that will involve a number of flag poles with the flags of the Sister Cities as well as a granite base with plaques or appropriate inscriptions to pay tribute to the Sister Cities.
  • 01:43:21
    The cross section here you can see will reduce the size of that planter by about 12 feet to allow for a wider opening down into the throat of the mall.
  • 01:43:30
    That will be the ADA compliant side also.
  • 01:43:32
    That will be ADA accessible for wheelchairs.
  • 01:43:37
    The area from what we're calling the Sister Cities Plaza down to 2nd Street, which is the existing vehicle crossing,
  • 01:43:47
    The main thing that's happening here is an additional water feature in the five tree planting grouping that's right in front of the cinema.
  • 01:43:57
    The exact shape of that has not yet been determined.
  • 01:44:00
    As I'm sure you're aware, there are currently three of these small fountains located throughout the mall.
  • 01:44:05
    One is a large circle, one is a large square, one is a smaller square.
  • 01:44:09
    And we're looking into some options as to what this will be.
  • 01:44:13
    In fact, our landscape architect, Taylor Gould, who couldn't be here today, has recently been in contact with Mr. Halperin and is trying to get some guidance from him in regard to that, as well as some other matters.
  • 01:44:26
    Next please.
  • 01:44:29
    This is the block from Second Street to First Street.
  • 01:44:32
    Primary concern here is the inclusion of the landscaped island adjacent to the mall to kind of separate the vehicular area of Second Street from the pedestrian area or the pedestrian mall itself on Main Street.
  • 01:44:47
    Next.
  • 01:44:48
    I'm going over this fairly quickly because I think you've seen most of it.
  • 01:44:52
    If you have any questions, please feel free to jump in.
  • 01:44:55
    This is a typical mall section.
  • 01:44:56
    It's essentially the same section that was originally envisioned.
  • 01:44:59
    We're not doing anything in terms of the cross section other than changing the brick setting from a mortar set to a sand set.
  • 01:45:06
    It's going to be the same cross section.
  • 01:45:10
    This is the block approaching Central Place from the west.
  • 01:45:14
    Again, another of the new water features.
  • 01:45:18
    This is the second one that will be installed in the seven tree stand in front of Seville.
  • 01:45:24
    The fountain at Central Place will be reworked.
  • 01:45:27
    It currently does not work as originally designed.
  • 01:45:30
    The lights don't work.
  • 01:45:32
    The pumps are reworked.
  • 01:45:34
    frequently in a state of disrepair.
  • 01:45:37
    The original design where you could turn a tap internally and the fountain will fill itself is inoperable.
  • 01:45:43
    Currently the fountain is filled from fire hydrants with hoses.
  • 01:45:47
    So all the workings of the pump of the fountain will be reworked so it's a completely operational fountain as originally envisioned by Halprin.
  • 01:45:56
    Next.
  • 01:45:58
    This is the further block in front of the new Landmark Hotel, really just renovating it to its original condition.
  • 01:46:07
    There will be a kiosk that will be provided as part of the wayfinding package that the city is doing separate from this project.
  • 01:46:15
    Next.
  • 01:46:17
    The section through Central Place, again, we're really not doing anything to it but cleaning it up and bringing it into the current day.
  • 01:46:25
    Next.
  • 01:46:27
    The next block down, I don't think that there's really anything special happening here.
  • 01:46:32
    One of the things I'll note is that at each of the intersections, there's presently an inlay band, there are two inlay bands with a cruciform in the center.
  • 01:46:43
    As Jim mentioned, that's going to be, we're proposing a granite.
  • 01:46:47
    There are also eight bollards currently at each of these intersections.
  • 01:46:50
    In order to make the mall accessible from the side streets for large fire vehicles, the inner four bollards are proposed to be removed.
  • 01:46:58
    BAR has reviewed and approved the removal of those bollards.
  • 01:47:02
    Currently, in order for the large fire trucks to get onto the mall, they have to either enter from Old Preston or from 7th Street in front of City Hall.
  • 01:47:09
    This allows access from the side streets.
  • 01:47:15
    This is the area between 4th and 5th.
  • 01:47:18
    As Jim noted, the 4th Street was always envisioned to be a vehicle crossing when it will remain so.
  • 01:47:25
    We're going to replace or renovate the fountain in front of the nook and we at this point have kind of abandoned the idea of the play area down to the east of the Market Street parking garage.
  • 01:47:39
    Next.
  • 01:47:41
    We're looking at some side street plannings to make a little bit more of a connection from the side streets into the mall.
  • 01:47:47
    We're not doing the side streets themselves.
  • 01:47:49
    In those areas where there's currently brick pavement and plantings, we're proposing a couple of different options to make it a little bit more of a gathering place as opposed to just a pathway through.
  • 01:48:01
    Next.
  • 01:48:02
    This is the final block again, renovating the mall, leaving the carousel in place and providing an informational kiosk at the end.
  • 01:48:13
    Jim mentioned there's an ad alternate.
  • 01:48:16
    We looked at providing a large water feature at the end of the mall adjacent to Water Street in front of the Omni.
  • 01:48:22
    This would be a multi-tiered pool with an active fountain at the top with passive cascade pools that follow the profile of the stairway down into the mall proper.
  • 01:48:37
    In terms of what we've presented to BAR and had approved and are moving forward with this, at this point the central place fountain will remain as is.
  • 01:48:44
    We're just going to rework the inner workings of it.
  • 01:48:48
    The small fountains will remain and be reworked.
  • 01:48:52
    They've authorized us to move forward with two new fountains as well.
  • 01:48:55
    Jim's talked about the lighting.
  • 01:48:56
    We're proposing using a slightly higher light fixture in order to allow for fire truck access as well as making it a dark sky compliant light.
  • 01:49:05
    Steel planners will reuse all of the existing and provide some new ones.
  • 01:49:10
    Jim's mentioned that a number of them have managed to find their way off the wall.
  • 01:49:14
    The benches will be in accordance with what was developed in Wallace, Roberts and Todd's master plan.
  • 01:49:20
    and we'll go back with the same trash and recycling receptacles.
  • 01:49:23
    I'll note that these were not the original Halprin trash cans.
  • 01:49:26
    The city staff were complaining of the difficulty of removing the inner linings so a more urban-dynamic trash can was provided and we're proposing to go back with those and BAR has approved that.
  • 01:49:41
    The permanent and existing and removable bollards.
  • 01:49:44
    As I noted, there are permanent bollards at the intersections, and then semi-permanent or demountable bollards at the side streets, which allow for removal from fire truck access, but still keep service vehicles off of the mall.
  • 01:49:57
    Next.
  • 01:49:58
    Bike racks on all the side streets.
  • 01:50:00
    We'll move forward with the bike racks that have been installed to date.
  • 01:50:04
    Next.
  • 01:50:06
    Oh, blank slide.
  • 01:50:08
    Pending COA from BAR, the banding.
  • 01:50:12
    They want more information on the color and texture of the granite.
  • 01:50:16
    We've also asked Mr. Halpern what his opinions were on that in terms of the colors and textures he originally envisioned.
  • 01:50:24
    He mentions on his plans just black granite and white granite.
  • 01:50:27
    We found local granites.
  • 01:50:29
    There's a white granite that comes out of Mount Airy and a black granite that's locally available in Culpeper that we think were appropriate and that we have presented to BAR.
  • 01:50:38
    The semi-permanent cafe bollards, that's something that Jim mentioned that we're currently working to develop a number of different designs for so it's not monochromatic.
  • 01:50:49
    The sister city plaza still has not been approved and that is a matter of discussion.
  • 01:50:54
    BAR's asked for newspaper enclosures.
  • 01:50:56
    There are a number of them that they've considered appropriate.
  • 01:50:58
    We just need to narrow down which one ultimately we're going to spec.
  • 01:51:03
    The city council has asked for water fountains for folks out on the mall.
  • 01:51:07
    We have not yet gotten approval of the water fountain type.
  • 01:51:11
    Large water feature at the west end they want to see more information on, and finally the brick.
  • 01:51:17
    The original brick pavers, which you can see are in significant disrepair throughout the mall.
  • 01:51:24
    are mortar set on a concrete slab.
  • 01:51:27
    The entire mall has a concrete slab of between five and six inches thickness from face of building to face of building for the entire length of the mall.
  • 01:51:34
    They're actually bricks, they're not pavers, so their modular dimension accounts for those, the joints that you see out there.
  • 01:51:40
    They're actually three and five eighths by 11 and five eighths with a three-eighths joint, which gives it a nominal dimension of four by 12.
  • 01:51:47
    Two and a quarter inch thick on a three quarter inch mortar bed for a total thickness of three inches, which we're proposing to match.
  • 01:51:54
    As I mentioned, the bedding mortar is deteriorating due to salt and freeze thaw and that's resulting in some heaving.
  • 01:52:02
    There's also significant cracking and chipping of the brick throughout them all.
  • 01:52:07
    We looked at trying to reuse the existing brick.
  • 01:52:10
    One of the things we discovered was very quickly it's really not terribly feasible.
  • 01:52:14
    First of all, there aren't enough of them.
  • 01:52:17
    Ten to fifteen percent were determined to be damaged when law did their report in the late 90s, early 2000.
  • 01:52:25
    That number certainly has increased over time.
  • 01:52:27
    The demolition activities will, without a doubt, damage more of these bricks.
  • 01:52:34
    When you take away the joint,
  • 01:52:36
    You've got 15,000 square feet of space on that mall that are currently occupied by 3 eighths inch mortar joint.
  • 01:52:43
    When you consider with this brick you need three bricks per square foot, that means you need to come up with 45,000 additional bricks beyond what's out there now.
  • 01:52:53
    The city currently has a pallet of about 1,500, so there just aren't enough available right now.
  • 01:52:58
    And finally, because it's a modular brick, it doesn't work with a herringbone pattern.
  • 01:53:02
    In order for a herringbone pattern to be effective, it has to be two or three or sometimes four to one in relation length to width for that pattern to work.
  • 01:53:13
    What we have out there on the mall right now are the mall extensions and Third Street is a four by eight clay brick paver.
  • 01:53:20
    It's a wire cut extruded product.
  • 01:53:23
    It's in a single herringbone.
  • 01:53:25
    It's two and a quarter inch on a three quarter sand bed for a total thickness of three inches.
  • 01:53:31
    We looked at some other options.
  • 01:53:32
    As Jim mentioned, recently we found a brick company in Watsonville, Pennsylvania that has indicated that they would be interested in making this brick.
  • 01:53:42
    This is not an easy brick to make.
  • 01:53:44
    In a normal brick manufacturing process you lose about 5-10% of the brick that goes into the kiln.
  • 01:53:51
    When it comes out it's not usable due to warpage and cracking during the firing process.
  • 01:53:57
    A 4x12 you lose 20-25% so it's a significant loss of product.
  • 01:54:02
    That's one of the reasons it costs so much more to make because you can't sell everything you make.
  • 01:54:08
    Again, it's available sustainably out of Watsonville, Pennsylvania.
  • 01:54:12
    The aspect ratio greater than three to one is not considered best practice for brick pavers.
  • 01:54:18
    It's recommended that your aspect ratio, which is your length divided by the thickness of the brick, not exceed two to one because that affects how the pavers interlock under loading.
  • 01:54:30
    We've also found a locally provided paver.
  • 01:54:32
    It's a wire cut extruded brick paver.
  • 01:54:36
    Four and three quarters by nine and a half, we're calling it a five by 10.
  • 01:54:40
    It's a large brick, provides a sense of scale.
  • 01:54:42
    We've got a very large installation out there.
  • 01:54:44
    A large brick seems appropriate.
  • 01:54:46
    And it is available very locally in Madison Heights.
  • 01:54:52
    And that's it.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 01:54:52
    Before we get to the questions, just a couple of things to conclude.
  • 01:54:58
    First is,
  • 01:55:00
    I'm going to go ahead and make a brief presentation on the following agenda item because the two are pretty tied together.
  • 01:55:07
    We're asking you in the next agenda item to amend the budget.
  • 01:55:19
    to amend the budget so that we can move all the dollars into FY09.
  • 01:55:24
    I noticed a mistake in the memo.
  • 01:55:26
    We actually have a million five on hand right now.
  • 01:55:30
    On July 1st, you've put a million five for the 09 CIP in the budget, which will give us three.
  • 01:55:37
    So we need another four and a half million to meet our 7.5 target.
  • 01:55:41
    What's been proposed by the Budget and Finance Office is that we amend the budget to raise to include that 4.5 and move it forward out of out years into the 09 CIP and then we sell our bonds early in June of this year to make up for the revenue, June of 09.
  • 01:55:59
    That will give us the revenue.
  • 01:56:00
    It won't have any long-term effects.
  • 01:56:04
    Just moving money forward and selling the bonds a little bit early.
  • 01:56:07
    So we'll be able to answer those questions.
  • 01:56:09
    But that is important if we're going to meet the time schedule that you said you wanted to meet, which is to get it all done in a hurry and in convenience of businesses as little as possible.
  • 01:56:20
    I want to conclude by saying, talking a second about why we're doing this.
  • 01:56:27
    This project was originally under discussion 10 years ago.
  • 01:56:31
    When the law report was done, it was recognized that the brick was failing, there were a lot of cracks, a lot of problems, and that we needed to address it.
  • 01:56:38
    And we've been going through the process of trying to decide how to get it right.
  • 01:56:42
    essentially for 10 years.
  • 01:56:44
    We hired WRT to do the master plan.
  • 01:56:47
    We've had a lot of public process during that.
  • 01:56:49
    We've had more public process during this phase and we're trying to get it right and trying to do it the way it should be done.
  • 01:56:56
    We're there now almost with a design.
  • 01:56:58
    We can build this in October and be under construction full scale the second day of January.
  • 01:57:05
    The bricks are a major issue.
  • 01:57:07
    The electrical is also another issue.
  • 01:57:10
    You can ride down there after dark and on a good night all the lights are on.
  • 01:57:16
    On a bad night, two-thirds of the blocks are off.
  • 01:57:20
    There are a lot of problems with the electrical system.
  • 01:57:21
    There are problems with the lights, with the ballast, with the lights themselves.
  • 01:57:25
    And so there's just maintenance work that needs to be done.
  • 01:57:28
    But rewiring has to happen to be able to make the light system better and to function the way it ought to function.
  • 01:57:36
    One of the vaults down there is underwater.
  • 01:57:39
    and that's one of the reasons we have electrical problems.
  • 01:57:42
    We've got to get that out and redo that as we redo the electrical so that A, it can be worked on safely and B, so that it doesn't short itself out on a regular basis.
  • 01:57:51
    So you may also know that we don't allow any of our restaurants or businesses to plug into any of the fixtures down there.
  • 01:58:00
    If they do that, we're subject to blowing a block or two and losing all the electricity on the mall.
  • 01:58:05
    because of the weakness of the system.
  • 01:58:07
    What feeds us is not bad, but the system we have is outdated and worn out and needs to be redone.
  • 01:58:12
    So we believe that it does need, we started this project because we believe that it needed an update and again,
  • 01:58:22
    Just to close, we believe we're doing an update that is a minor update when it comes to the changes, but is bringing it into this century and getting it best practice and keeping what's there now, but is the least that we can do and do it effectively.
  • 01:58:39
    So I regret that it cost seven and a half million dollars, but I hope it doesn't cost that when we get it done, but it is expensive.
  • 01:58:49
    And we'll be happy to answer any questions that you have.
  • 01:59:09
    Rick usually does that.
  • 01:59:27
    Can I go this way?
  • 01:59:30
    Yes.
  • 01:59:30
    Rick and Jill turn around.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:59:44
    Thank you for your presentation.
  • 01:59:46
    Any questions from counselors to staff?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:59:52
    I have lots of comments, so I'll wait till other people have to speak.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 01:59:56
    Well, we're going to do questions first.
  • 01:59:58
    If you have any questions, you can ask those now and we'll do comments afterwards.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:00:03
    What straight, my understanding is from your drawing is that you are adding
  • 02:00:06
    More fair day here.
  • 02:00:08
    Where?
  • 02:00:09
    For the Water Street Plaza.
  • 02:00:11
    Water Street?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:00:12
    Yes.
  • 02:00:13
    Yes, the intent was to open it up and make it a little wider there.
  • 02:00:16
    When we came to council in February, you said, OK, but maybe not as wide.
  • 02:00:21
    So we've shrunk it a little bit from that.
  • 02:00:23
    But when WRT did their initial work, one of the things that they pointed out and others pointed to them was as you come down Water Street and look down to the mall, you can't see the mall.
  • 02:00:33
    It's not visible.
  • 02:00:35
    You don't get division of what's down here.
  • 02:00:38
    And so they suggested that we open it up and make it a little wider there and be able to move the buses so that the buses don't park and block it so you get visibility.
  • 02:00:46
    So yes sir, that is a little change there.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:00:54
    I have a few questions.
  • 02:00:57
    I understand that the trees would be in the same locations they are now with the exception of the ones around the army.
  • 02:01:07
    that the trees will follow the same plan as originally?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:01:10
    That is the intent, yes sir.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:01:12
    The intent or that's what the plan is?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:01:14
    It would be everything possible to get the root system out of there and plant them back in the exact place.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:01:19
    And with the exception of there's some changes near the Omni?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:01:22
    Right, yes sir, in that plan that's out there.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:01:27
    Your description of doing the outdoor cafes, does that imply that there would be a permanent space, spaces for cafes?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:01:36
    No sir, the only difference in what they have now and what we would have is that the post would be set in a sleeve that would come out and be capped for the winter.
  • 02:01:47
    If that restaurant went out of business, it's very easy with the sand lay brick, you take the sleeve out and put another brick in there and you can move them, we would get the things in sections so that
  • 02:01:57
    If another cafe came in, we'd be able to have them that would fit for another cafe.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:02:02
    Get the things in sections, I don't really know what you mean.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:02:06
    We haven't designed the perimeter.
  • 02:02:08
    The ABC laws say you have to have an earth department, you have to have a perimeter around every cafe.
  • 02:02:13
    The problem we have now are the bollards and chains that are used.
  • 02:02:17
    So we want to come up with something, I think the blue light has some that are more like, more permanent looking than what is a chain with a bollard on it.
  • 02:02:26
    We're thinking that we can come up with something like that that's open but that may have bottles every post every eight feet and then a couple of posts in between with a kick plate at the bottom to meet ADA.
  • 02:02:39
    That would sit down in a sleeve in the brick.
  • 02:02:42
    You'd take it out in the winter season, put it in storage, bring it back out, put it back down.
  • 02:02:47
    If that restaurant went out of business, you'd take all those away
  • 02:02:50
    go out and pick up the brick with the sleeve and put a new one in.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:02:54
    I want to hear a little information as to how, is that an easy thing to do or is that not an easy thing to do?
  • 02:03:00
    I mean, so if a restaurant, say for example, said, well, we'd like to actually, is there any reason we couldn't have this moved over a foot and a half, which would allow us to have another table there, would that be you saying, well, that's actually three days worth of work to do, or is that something that gets done by one guy in an afternoon?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:03:15
    Well, first is that their cafes are determined, their size are limited by the code and when they apply.
  • 02:03:21
    And they're really set by the fire lanes and the pedestrian areas.
  • 02:03:25
    So once they come in and we determine what it's going to be, we don't have a move on purpose very often.
  • 02:03:34
    We envision this would be probably an afternoon's work, I would say, to move them and reset them if you had to do that.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:03:44
    Exactly, what is the problem with the lights that require it to be taller?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:03:48
    Getting the fire trucks underneath them safely and making the turning radius as they come in.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:03:55
    So the fire trucks are too tall, they currently can't go under the lights?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:03:58
    They have a, they get squeezed occasionally and they have, they do have difficulty getting the ladder truck in particular under the, underneath the lights.
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:04:08
    They need 14 feet vertical clearance.
  • 02:04:11
    Right.
  • 02:04:11
    We've been informed by the fire department.
  • 02:04:13
    and what is out there currently is about 12.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:04:19
    But you also proposed a solution that didn't require changing them.
  • 02:04:23
    What does that mean as a practical matter?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:04:25
    Well, I said if that's not deemed an important enough reason, we can use the same ones we have now.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:04:31
    Does the ladder truck currently not have access to the mall?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:04:34
    No, it does, but it's limited.
  • 02:04:36
    It has to go much slower than they would like.
  • 02:04:38
    It has to go many times around and they have to move an entire cafe
  • 02:04:42
    to get through, pick up things, move them over because they have to stay away.
  • 02:04:46
    This would give them the ability to use the fire lane as it is out there now.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:04:50
    Could you maybe comment on exactly where the pinch points are?
  • 02:04:52
    My preference would be to keep the design as it is.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:04:59
    Well, what happens down there now, you've got to do a lot of jockeying back and forth to make turns sometimes.
  • 02:05:04
    And that's what causes a lot of the problem.
  • 02:05:06
    As you point out, the height
  • 02:05:10
    I do note that you're talking about opening up all the size fish now where you can get in there and correct which that will be a big help and I applaud you doing that.
  • 02:05:21
    We've always had a problem where you've got to go in at one end or the other and depending on where something happens it causes a little problem but that's a big problem just the jockeying back and forth in the time it takes to maneuver.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:05:32
    I'd like to hear more about solutions that allow us to keep the existing lights myself.
  • 02:05:42
    How much do the new fountains cost?
  • 02:05:48
    What's the impetus behind having more fountains on them all?
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:05:53
    The small fountains, all five of them together, are about $75,000, so they're about $15,000 each.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:06:02
    That's insulation caused at February 10th?
  • 02:06:04
    That's correct.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:06:05
    That's correct.
  • 02:06:07
    Should a fountain be like $7,000 for a fountain?
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:06:12
    That's for the larger fountain.
  • 02:06:13
    When we were looking at the plate fountain at one end, that was in the range of actually I think $250,000, and the large fountain at the Omni end is in the range of
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:06:30
    600, 650,000 I believe 650,000 please see chart shows the installation of these fountains was 130,000 dollars per fountain I don't know what you're reading, maybe I'm reading wrong I think Mr. Huja is correct
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:07:00
    They're roughly $65,000-$70,000 instead.
  • 02:07:04
    You're looking for refurbishing cost.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:07:09
    Can you tell us your argument in favor of having more fountains?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:07:15
    One is that we heard it in the public process that people like the water and like it working and like the feel of that.
  • 02:07:21
    The other is that that was a major feature of the model with the water features when it was originally designed.
  • 02:07:28
    What I thought was, was in the blocks where there wasn't really anything to add a couple of those to.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:07:34
    The original design to call for more fountains than we ended up putting in?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:07:37
    Not necessarily more, but yeah.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:07:42
    How come the water fountains, what's happened to the water fountains that are in the kiosks on the mall?
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:07:51
    They're not aminoperable for years.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:07:52
    I know, but we're talking about having water fountains, we're talking about trying to find a solution.
  • 02:07:58
    They used to work.
  • 02:07:59
    Right.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:08:00
    And is that not?
  • 02:08:02
    It's my understanding it's the piping and it's worn out.
  • 02:08:08
    We could, yes.
  • 02:08:11
    Again, there's only one at this point.
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:08:13
    Right, the Central Place Ski House is gone and all the apartments went with it.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:08:18
    So what we were looking at was three of them, one at each end and one in the middle based on the comments that we'd heard.
  • 02:08:27
    and how many bricks are on them all?
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:08:34
    125,000 square feet and I guess with the 4x12 that's out there now that's 3 square feet so 375,000.
  • 02:08:45
    Thank you.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:08:49
    A lot.
  • 02:08:54
    If you keep the rhythm lights, and then you said if you raised them two feet, I think you said, that you'd have to put in a four inch pole?
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:09:00
    Yes, sir.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:09:02
    Okay.
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:09:02
    Three and a half that's there now.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:09:04
    Okay.
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:09:05
    That has to do with the lateral loading due to wind.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:09:10
    Okay.
  • 02:09:11
    You said you'd go take the money from last year, this year, and then we would borrow the necessary money to speed the project up?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:09:19
    That was right.
  • 02:09:20
    That was the proposed way that suggested by budget and finance to be able to address the issue of getting it done at one time instead of having to either wait until prices go up or drag it out over a period of time.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:09:32
    Well, I support getting it done as quickly as we can.
  • 02:09:34
    I guess the only additional cost on that, I guess, would be the cost of borrowing the money.
  • 02:09:39
    Is that correct?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:09:39
    Right, and we believe that the way prices are going up and the way the bidding climate is now, now is the time to, if we're going to do it, now is a great time to jump in and get it done.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:09:49
    Okay, and the other thing that I think you made reference to was of course was upgrading the electrical service on the ball, which I know a lot of the CAFE operators will be very happy if you do that.
  • 02:10:03
    And the other thing is, are you going to install Wi-Fi?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:10:06
    We've got that as an add-on, and right now I expect at $54,000 to do that, but we think it's very desirable by the merchants, and we think it's an asset that would make it an even more special place to have it available.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:10:22
    I agree with that.
  • 02:10:25
    So it would cost about what, $50,000?
  • 02:10:27
    Right.
  • 02:10:28
    And that would cover the whole length of the mall, basically?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:10:31
    Right.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:10:33
    and you can guarantee it will be done in four months?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:10:38
    I can tell you that our construction manager who has a very good track record is confident that they can do it in that period of time.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:10:46
    Okay, I hope so.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:10:48
    Based on the plan as it is right now.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:10:51
    Okay, because that's pretty important.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:10:52
    Absolutely, we realize that.
  • 02:10:54
    The merchants have to, they're going to put up with a lot for four months.
  • 02:10:59
    Absolutely.
  • 02:11:00
    Albemarle believes that they can get three to four crews down here and have them
  • 02:11:03
    working different ends at the same time and really move it forward in a hurry.
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:11:07
    It'll be a beehive.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:11:09
    Okay, it's critical.
  • 02:11:10
    Well, I think it's critical.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:11:11
    You may understand that.
• • 02:11:12
    Okay.
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:11:13
    But a recurring theme through all the public participation and business participation was get it done as quickly as possible, like taking off a band-aid.
  • 02:11:21
    Do it as fast as you can to get it over with.
  • 02:11:24
    It was a recurring theme.
  • 02:11:25
    They all recognized it as an important step to keep them all fresh and vital.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:11:31
    Absolutely.
  • 02:11:33
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:11:37
    Other questions before I move into comments?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 02:11:41
    Where the plain drinking water fountains going to be?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:11:46
    Where will they be?
  • 02:11:47
    We haven't actually put them on the plant yet.
  • 02:11:50
    We're looking at various types.
  • 02:11:52
    The intent was to put one on the east end, one on the west end, and one in the central place area to try to spread them out a little bit.
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:12:00
    We're forced and free standing.
  • 02:12:03
    What is the cost for all the bollards to put together your proposal?
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 02:12:18
    All of them.
  • 02:12:19
    Bollards.
  • 02:12:20
    Bollards?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:12:22
    I'm not sure we can give you the answer right now but it's you know my our thought is that we recoup that in the rent you get that back in what we rent to the cafes and then they would maintain them and keep them and we'd have some rules about how they were painted and maintained
  • 02:12:48
    so that we don't have to do that.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:12:50
    So you're willing to raise the rents for cafes?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:12:52
    Right, to cover that cost.
  • 02:12:54
    And I will tell you that the cafes we've had conversation with love the idea because they have trouble with them getting moved.
  • 02:13:01
    They don't like getting nasty letters from us and they don't like them moving and they have to go set them up every day before they start.
  • 02:13:07
    So they are not opposed, the ones we've talked to are not opposed to the idea.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:13:12
    Did you totally raise the rent?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:13:15
    No, they're understanding right now they've got a bargain.
  • 02:13:17
    We haven't raised it in a couple of years.
  • 02:13:20
    If they provide electrical and Wi-Fi, then they need to pay for that also.
  • 02:13:25
    So that's been part of the public process.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:13:28
    Early, there's a comment on moving it.
  • 02:13:30
    The bollards will have to move, my dear.
  • 02:13:33
    Is that what you call it?
  • 02:13:34
    Around the cafe?
  • 02:13:35
    Right.
  • 02:13:36
    Okay.
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:13:37
    It's essentially a pipe.
  • 02:13:38
    Yeah, it's in a sleeve, right?
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:13:39
    Yes, sir.
  • 02:13:41
    So if the new pavers or brick or whatever will be laid in sand, so I guess it would be relatively simple in order to take one of those up, move and put a new sleeve in or whatever you have to do.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:13:51
    Yes sir.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:13:52
    Wouldn't be like it is today.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:13:54
    No.
  • 02:13:55
    Okay.
  • 02:13:56
    That's the beauty of doing it in sand.
  • 02:13:58
    If we have a water line break, we'll be able to just pull the bricks out, move the sand back and fix the water line break.
  • 02:14:04
    You can go down there now and see where every break has always been because
  • 02:14:08
    It's discovered the motor joints are different colors, different size, and it's a real maintenance problem where with it made in sand the experience is that's real easy to get underneath it.
  • 02:14:21
    Is anyone using mortar anymore?
  • 02:14:23
    We haven't run across anybody that's...
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:14:27
    Okay.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:14:32
    What's the rationale on the newspaper boxes of having sort of one homogenous, you know, walled off display area for the newspapers?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:14:46
    That's been a battle we've been fighting for years in this city is trying to find a way to corral them.
  • 02:14:51
    There's six in one, half dozen in the other about how you do it.
  • 02:14:55
    We're just trying to get some uniformity and some better look to them.
  • 02:15:00
    One of the proposals the WRT made was to stick them all on the side streets which we've done and put a wall on both ends of it and a platform for them to sit on.
  • 02:15:10
    We've looked at that alternative.
  • 02:15:12
    BAR is very interested and we quite frankly have been interested in trying to find a way though that's more uniform, that you know what's there and it is more attractive and you can maintain it better.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:15:28
    Any other questions before we move into comment period?
  • 02:15:34
    Thank you very much.
  • 02:15:40
    Just to clarify our charge this evening, you're looking for further guidance, you're not looking for a final vote on the scope of work here or design, final design.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:15:51
    Right, we just want to hear if we're on the right track because if we're going to make an October bidding, we've got to turn them loose to finalize things pretty quick.
  • 02:16:00
    Let me, if I can add one thing, I didn't hit my notes.
  • 02:16:04
    There were some issues raised about the June 30th meeting and comments about that and the intent.
  • 02:16:08
    Our intent with that was we promised the folks in January when we were going through the public process that when we got to this point, we would bring it back and show them where we were, what council had seen,
  • 02:16:19
    and what direction we were taking at that point and get really final public comment at that point before we finish the design and get the construction docs ready to bid.
  • 02:16:29
    If we go forward to meet this deadline, we're going to start ordering.
  • 02:16:33
    We'll start ordering, assuming you approve moving the money.
  • 02:16:36
    Shortly after July, probably in the August, we'll start ordering pieces of this.
  • 02:16:40
    Put in the order for the bricks so it can be made and be ready.
  • 02:16:44
    Any of the furniture, anything else we're doing, we'll start ordering it
  • 02:16:48
    We won't wait until we get a general contractor in here to start doing the work.
  • 02:16:52
    So that's the only way we can make this work in four months is to start doing that.
  • 02:16:56
    So the intent of tonight is to get the final direction and then to vote on the money, of course, is important.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:17:04
    Speaking of the money, I know we're talking about that next, but when you came to us in the work session and presented where you were at that point, and we said you would like to scale it back here or there,
  • 02:17:15
    and you pulled some things out of it, including some very expensive things like the $600,000 fountain, etc.
  • 02:17:20
    and yet the price tag hasn't changed.
  • 02:17:22
    Why is that?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:17:25
    We hadn't really done any real costing at that point.
  • 02:17:28
    We were using the WRT estimates.
  • 02:17:30
    pretty much in February.
  • 02:17:31
    Now they've done the estimates.
  • 02:17:33
    Again, when they ask the electrical folks to give the electrical estimates, we know they're high.
  • 02:17:38
    They said $10,000 a light fixture.
  • 02:17:42
    We're pretty confident we can get them for $5,000, but they didn't want to give us a low-ball figure until they had something that was really much tighter.
  • 02:17:50
    And then, again, that's brought in all those charges they're working on now is to get that number really tightened up.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:17:56
    And then in terms of the side streets, what is your current thinking about opportunities for extending the mall along some of the other side streets?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:18:06
    For a second we'll be done in conjunction with the hotel.
  • 02:18:09
    That's already designed and ready to go.
  • 02:18:12
    We've got to do some work on 4th as it becomes a permanent crossing and we're contractually obligated to do some work on 5th and South because of the whole Singer project.
  • 02:18:24
    At this point, we've heard from council that you don't want to do anything else to move those forward.
  • 02:18:29
    Of course, the wayfinding will implement some of that, some improvements to at least signal what's happening down there.
  • 02:18:38
    But there's a lot of interest in the community in doing the improvements to the side streets.
  • 02:18:44
    It's expensive, though.
  • 02:18:45
    If we start tackling and doing major work on them, the ones where we have an underground of utilities,
  • 02:18:51
    that's a quarter million to three hundred thousand dollars per side street it looks like from all our other costs to do and then it's a time factor because none of them have the slab already there so if we're putting brick we've got to dig out and we estimated four and a half million to finish all of them and I feel fairly confident that it's in that order of magnitude and that's without doing any detailed costing but just looking at what others have cost us and what
  • 02:19:21
    You know, what the undergrounding costs are.
  • 02:19:23
    And you really can't do the streetscape effectively unless you do the undergrounding and get the wires and the poles out of the way.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 02:19:30
    Part of the original strategy of the mall to keep the costs down was to take all the electric utilities off the main street and push them to water, markets, side streets, and if you go and look, they're heavily, that's why it gets so expensive to go in there, then it gets really expensive to go underground to dig, to put vaults in, etc., etc., etc.
  • 02:19:50
    I mean, they become major projects.
  • 02:19:51
    It's different than what we're talking about for the mall.
  • 02:19:54
    It gets much more expensive.
  • 02:19:56
    That's why we haven't done very many in reality.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:19:59
    It's amazing how many utilities are under those streets.
  • 02:20:03
    We run out of room to do things.
  • 02:20:06
    All right, thank you.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 02:20:10
    Comments?
  • 02:20:12
    I just have a process question.
  • 02:20:13
    If we're going to have another
  • 02:20:16
    public meeting in June 30th.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:20:18
    Right.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 02:20:19
    So you'll be coming, we'll leave you here again with the results of that public meeting?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:20:24
    If that's your desire, we can bring those, surely bring those back in.
  • 02:20:29
    I would anticipate what we may do is bringing the comments back and any changes that are made.
  • 02:20:33
    If you suggest some changes tonight and let you confirm those, it's probably a good idea.
  • 02:20:38
    We need to do that quickly, probably no later than the second meeting in July to get final, you know, go ahead if we're going to make our schedule.
  • 02:20:46
    and that's going to be tight, but that would probably be a good strategy.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:20:54
    Where's the BAR in terms of their consideration of both this project but specifically of the bricks?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:21:03
    They would prefer that we had the 4 x 12 papers and use those.
  • 02:21:07
    That's their preference is that we use those.
  • 02:21:11
    And quite frankly, you know,
  • 02:21:14
    Now that we've found them, we're not opposed to recommending that we go forward with that.
  • 02:21:20
    It is much closer to the Halpern design.
  • 02:21:22
    We do have some concerns about the stability ratio, the 3 to 1 ratio, but it will allow us to maintain much more the integrity of the original design by using those.
  • 02:21:38
    And again, they are available within the
  • 02:21:41
    If you were using LEED standards, they would meet those standards.
  • 02:21:46
    They're also the same PSI as the other ones that are strong enough.
  • 02:21:50
    They are made as papers, and so we feel confident that they would work if that's what we want to do.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:22:01
    Thank you.
  • 02:22:02
    Comments?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:22:05
    Mr. Huja?
  • 02:22:10
    This will be taking a few minutes to give my comments about your new passion.
  • 02:22:19
    I share many concerns which the speakers already have started being expressed.
  • 02:22:26
    I think the world right now has a sense of place and a character which we want to maintain and preserve for some time to come.
  • 02:22:38
    It is simple, it is elegant, it is clean design and I don't think we are going to sacrifice that with our improvements I think the approach in terms of the staff and the consultants was good in turn probably but I think the results in online are still far from rehabilitation but more is change the character of what is there right now
  • 02:23:07
    from a significant fashion.
  • 02:23:08
    So now I will try to talk very specifics as I go down the list.
  • 02:23:15
    I think the approach should be more of rehabilitation, more of reuse of what we have, more of restoring what we have, and if there are places that we need to replace, then we can replace.
  • 02:23:28
    I don't think there is anything wrong with it.
  • 02:23:32
    I would like us to stick to current design as far as possible because
  • 02:23:37
    It is a good design, it has worked for one for us and it has been a historic character to it now.
  • 02:23:46
    I get a feeling sometimes that as we look at the proposals, they become like Christmas tree, everybody's wishes have been added to the tree and it may be a satisfying number of people but in the process I think we will destroy the original concept if we follow this general approach.
  • 02:24:07
    and I will again talk about more specifically why I think so.
  • 02:24:13
    So my general concern, general suggestion would be to stick to the current design, don't make major changes unless they are needed, for example I understand you need to improve the electrical system and it should be improved.
  • 02:24:28
    I would suggest that first of all the footprint of the wall should be kept as it is right now, I am still referring to end of Water Street End
  • 02:24:37
    I want to give today an estimated check again.
  • 02:24:41
    The amount of space that is there is more than sufficient than what we have ever used or ever used by anybody else.
  • 02:24:49
    By adding more space, I think it will just change the scale, change the character, but I think it is what Professor Ed Ladson made, which are basically cut down some very nice mature trees on that current plaza, so I don't think we need to do that.
  • 02:25:07
    I am pleased to see that the current base will be saved and used because I think it will find that most of the base is in pretty good shape.
  • 02:25:15
    You may find some places that you need to replace but I think the base should be used as is proposed which I did not understand in previous presentations.
  • 02:25:26
    Idea of bricks, I have checked on
  • 02:25:31
    I was going to say to the staff that there are two websites that I looked at gobrick.com which is a brick institute of America has a website and they provide a number of options for 4x12 bricks is in sustainable range so I am glad you found somebody but there are positive possibilities I think I would prefer to see 4x12 8 brick used as the staff is not talking and I think if you
  • 02:26:02
    because on the first side of brick you use the four, the area of the, to become the same so you will be using less bricks which are 4 by 12 or 4 by 8 or 5 by 10 5 by 10 is not made to be of any sense because it is totally normal brick it doesn't add to, in any way, otherwise it will go to 4 by 8 if it comes down to that but I think 4 by 12 brick is very useful to continue to use that and having the pattern it provides is very useful to have
  • 02:26:32
    I have checked also the reuse of existing brick and I totally agree that there will be 15-20% new brick required anyway regardless of what you do.
  • 02:26:41
    When you use old brick, you see it has already destroyed damage and has some more damage in the process.
  • 02:26:48
    So you still have to buy the 15-45% new brick, but you may be able to use
  • 02:26:54
    75% of the bricks which are there after you clean them.
  • 02:26:57
    And the bricks are clean and used quite often and if you can save some money I would say you have to explore the possibilities at least.
  • 02:27:06
    You may not save money, maybe the results will come out that you can't save money, but at least we'll do the most exploring.
  • 02:27:21
    Concrete grants need to be replaced in most places and I agree with Starr that we need to go to Granite because the original plan was that each barrier will be colored barrier, coloration will be stable, it will be some extra cost but in the long run it will pay off in terms of its quality.
  • 02:27:40
    We used all those kind of payments in Wood Square.
  • 02:27:48
    We don't need to sell safe planters, maybe you need some more, especially to put in terms of side streets, to just acknowledge that there is something going on.
  • 02:28:00
    In terms of lighting, what I guess my major concern is that, changing the light by 2 feet, it will change the character from pedestrian to more vehicular.
  • 02:28:10
    Lighting and I stood last night and said it was Friday night and I see what it meant but I think that the side street access to the fire areas and trucks, you could really hear
  • 02:28:27
    I'm just trying to listen to the lights.
  • 02:28:30
    Plus, as I looked at the cost estimate, you could probably save a million dollars by not doing these lights again.
  • 02:28:37
    At least that is what I could read on the budget, which is estimate budget.
  • 02:28:43
    More than a million dollars you could save by just leaving the light alone.
  • 02:28:47
    I understand that you don't need to do wiring, and that should be perfectly fine.
  • 02:28:52
    I also hear concerns about trees.
  • 02:28:55
    I was in the area of what people say, the trees are diseased and dying, and I could show you a few trees like that, almost every August I met, I don't know why they are called August, they always want to cut down the trees, and I'll give you a classic example, in front of Corvus and Hydronic and Emmett Street, there are two trees and blocks, they've been there for 25 years, but I was told they'll be dead within 2 years, they're very well.
  • 02:29:20
    I think the noise of trees is also greatly exaggerated.
  • 02:29:25
    They are very hardy and they are good trees and I want to look at them.
  • 02:29:29
    I know there are one or two trees, I know they are dead or very close to it and we have replaced them.
  • 02:29:35
    The trees have an idea for trees in park, so if you do need trees, it could be replaced, it's a good idea, I think we should expose that.
  • 02:29:43
    But I don't think we need to cut down trees right now, maybe there are two you could.
  • 02:29:48
    and trees make the character of the downtown more and more ways.
  • 02:29:52
    I think the scale of trees is very important.
  • 02:30:01
    Next comes to bar.
  • 02:30:02
    I am not sure it is worth the expense or the care to put new barrels for cafes.
  • 02:30:09
    I think the character of the mall
  • 02:30:12
    Little bit more uniform, more than a few chains around to look like going to a fashion school and all, and I think I could live without that.
  • 02:30:24
    The question of how else is going to be, the current form design of the house I think is quite good, it has worked very well except a few times, but I would hope that that design will be kept because it defines the space on the mall.
  • 02:30:39
    I don't see that many more fountains, I have, as Sridhar will tell you that when you find fountains, there is a time and place for each fountain, you get quite a few fountains in the morning, I would not object to one or two more, but no one would add a great deal to the downtown mall, but definitely let's put it as a big fountain in front of the army.
  • 02:31:04
    Art in Place, again I am a supporter of Art in Place in Germany, but also here you just make it clever.
  • 02:31:10
    You already got an award, you can't put everything in one place.
  • 02:31:15
    It's just like having a room, you can't put everything in a room, you've got a whole house, you can put other places also.
  • 02:31:22
    My wife has a room if you want to pick one thing in the room, you can take out something.
  • 02:31:27
    So that sort of thing I have to live with myself.
  • 02:31:32
    So our place, I think it's wonderful where it is.
  • 02:31:36
    I don't think you will know downtown now.
  • 02:31:38
    I also don't think you need a playground.
  • 02:31:41
    I know there's no nice playground, so I think you should show the map of the playgrounds in the city, show it to them and you can go visit them.
  • 02:31:55
    those boxes I think it could be useful to have some kind of cassole in those boxes but all over the world you track them in the corner and they didn't work, the cassole didn't form, it was a disaster so even though I personally like the idea that I put first then I think you will look at those before you jump into it
  • 02:32:16
    Wi-Fi, I agree with Mr. Taliaferro that I think it's a good investment in our future.
  • 02:32:21
    It's 50,000 dollars, there's not much if it can be done for that.
  • 02:32:25
    I'm always living with affecting cost.
  • 02:32:29
    I think what we need to maintain would be to maintain the basics infrastructure character.
  • 02:32:37
    You could do not less
  • 02:32:41
    and sometimes less is more.
  • 02:32:43
    In this case I think that is the point I would like to emphasize more than anything else.
  • 02:32:47
    I would say that you could save some money by living at least a million plus and not expending a footprint on the western end.
  • 02:33:01
    I don't think, I have looked at it again, the planet Earth in front of us is perfectly in good condition.
  • 02:33:07
    I think you would learn there is a 12 feet
  • 02:33:10
    and we have space on the left hand side, so I don't think we need to use any recorders to learn how to use recorders to change, so the goal of coverage is that we have to do less, we have to not reuse what we have, we have to, like grades, in those sense we could reuse again, we are not that great, we have little heavy grades,
  • 02:33:33
    they will need to be clean and repainted, they will just be done, but I think the suggestion of change is not to leave the footprint alone, not fooling around with the trees, not fooling around with the lights, and we have a great plan, I think to say at least, in my mind, too many laws in front of this project, and not only will we save the money, we have better projects, more problems than the content of the original plan, and also the quality you can maintain.
  • 02:33:59
    I also would love to explore the possibilities of side streets, but I know everything costs money.
  • 02:34:05
    In the meantime I would love to see at least parts under each entrance of the mall, side mall, so at least you can see what connection is there to the side street to the downtown.
  • 02:34:19
    And I would, I know you are anxious to move forward, and I used to be very anxious to move forward also, as the city manager will tell you.
  • 02:34:28
    Sometimes patience and deliberation and thought process, at this front end, they say in the long term, knock me on headaches.
  • 02:34:39
    So I would urge you to think, take a little bit halt, wait a little bit of deliberations and not, I would say I could say that I have lots of support doing it all at one time.
  • 02:34:52
    What is President Cohen has done in three months, it was done
  • 02:34:56
    Thank you Mr. Huja
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:35:26
    Okay, let's see if I can offer comments.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:35:31
    I'll offer a few.
  • 02:35:32
    I agree with much of what Mr. Huja said, not everything of course.
  • 02:35:38
    I kind of disagree that there's a chance to reuse the brick and for a couple reasons.
  • 02:35:45
    One is it did seem to me that I just heard that the issue is these bricks don't have quite the same aspect as the design calls for because they include the mortar.
  • 02:35:54
    I mean, it seems like it's kind of difficult to make them work once you've scraped all the murder off, but secondly, most importantly, trying to reuse the brick and trying to have a really tight time schedule to complete this project seemed like they might not be compatible.
  • 02:36:10
    I'm a little concerned about the brick issue.
  • 02:36:12
    I think it's a complicated issue because I'd hate to see us install this in sand and have it turn out that the concern is about stability of brick in sand, bricks this long.
  • 02:36:25
    be an issue in that we have a wall, a mall that's constantly having wobbly spots and we realize maybe we should have put in a smaller brick.
  • 02:36:33
    So I don't have an answer to that.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:36:35
    I have checked on that issue for at least three different people and they say that the brick, the type of brick that Mr. Tobit will not have that problem.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:36:44
    I'm sorry, can you say that again?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:36:46
    The type of brick which Mr. Tobit has proposed today will not have that stability problem.
  • 02:36:51
    It is just what three different people are told with.
  • 02:36:55
    Those are the three people you ran into on the mall or those are some of the experts that you know?
  • 02:37:02
    I personally heard that they should build on the mall.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:37:12
    I talked to them personally.
  • 02:37:15
    I think that's a key component of what the mall feels like and looks like and acts like.
  • 02:37:23
    I'm also not really interested in changing some of the key design things.
  • 02:37:27
    I guess in particular I'm not really keen on us trying to make the mall become uniform.
  • 02:37:34
    I don't have a problem with the newspapers the way they're currently corralled.
  • 02:37:38
    It doesn't bother me.
  • 02:37:41
    I use them.
  • 02:37:43
    I look along and find a newspaper and head on somewhere and sit and have a cup of coffee.
  • 02:37:49
    I'm not keen on having all the carts look the same, and I'm not keen on having all the bollards, that there be this real boxy uniform look in the restaurants.
  • 02:38:00
    I can be persuaded that there's really good reasons to do those things, but I'm not crazy about the issue of trying to make everything be kind of uniform.
  • 02:38:17
    I also support Art in Place, but I don't know that it needs to be competing for space on the Mall.
  • 02:38:24
    I could be persuaded to do drink fountains.
  • 02:38:29
    I think we do need to have some drinking fountains on the Mall at some places.
  • 02:38:34
    I mean, we had them in the past.
  • 02:38:37
    but I'm not persuaded to need more just decorative fountains and I definitely kind of don't think that a large fountain is something that I'd want to have a real public process if it turns out someone wants to pay for it.
  • 02:38:52
    I'd want to have a process that involves the bigger community and really get support and engagement for that.
  • 02:39:08
    and I'd like to hear, since a number of people came forward expressing their concerns, I'd like to hear from the people who expressed those concerns after sitting through this presentation here and our comments hearing what exactly is going on.
  • 02:39:23
    Hopefully some of the issues
  • 02:39:25
    you know, our issues that aren't being changed.
  • 02:39:29
    If there's things that we seem to think we need to do that you disagree with, I'd like to hear from people and the easy way is to email us at council at Charlottesville dot org and so we can hear what you've thought about this presentation.
  • 02:39:41
    And those are my comments.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:39:45
    Thank you, Dr. Brown.
  • 02:39:46
    And they can also attend the June 30 public meeting and express their opinions there.
• • SPEAKER_12
  • 02:39:52
    Any other comments?
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:39:57
    I just encourage people to come on the 3rd of June.
  • 02:39:59
    I think that will be an interesting process and will certainly give us a chance to see where the community is on the issue.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:40:08
    Anything you'd like to add Ms. Edwards?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 02:40:10
    Just again echo the importance of people coming on June 30th and that's why I was asking what the process is going to be because if people are going to come I want them to feel as if their voices and opinions are going to be
  • 02:40:25
    be valued and in some way integrated into this whole process as well.
  • 02:40:31
    I think it's the only concern I would have would be with the lighting and the access of the fire trucks, because I'm hearing that the lighting as it is creates the pedestrian ambiance in the mall, which is important, but also with the hotel and the hotel that's going to be built.
  • 02:40:53
    There are more people living on the Mall, and so having the fire trucks having access is important in some way.
  • 02:41:02
    We're eager to hear how that's going to work out.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:41:07
    Can I ask just one more question?
  • 02:41:11
    You've probably done this, but
  • 02:41:13
    Have you looked at some communities that are using the pavers and landing the sand and any impact they've had from heavy vehicles or vehicle traffic across them?
  • 02:41:23
    Do we know some communities that we can talk to about that issue?
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:41:29
    One of the issues that we're looking at is in areas where there's going to be heavy traffic
  • 02:41:35
    I'll throw an engineering term at you, equivalent axle loads, easels.
  • 02:41:40
    It's considered heavy traffic when you have 251 or more per day.
  • 02:41:45
    So the fire trucks going up and down the mall several times a year is not heavy traffic.
  • 02:41:50
    Heavy traffic there will be the crossing of 4th Street and 2nd Street and we're proposing there is a more durable brick, a two and three quarter inch brick with the replacement of portions of that slab to provide a more appropriate
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:42:03
    Okay, but do we ask some other communities that are doing the same process, I guess is what I'm asking?
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 02:42:15
    I'll tell you this, just to address the discussion.
  • 02:42:18
    I think it was 17 years ago, Bill Hall, who was the designer for Lawrence Houghton, was in town for an architecture award.
  • 02:42:26
    invited him to come downtown, we took a stroll in the mall, asked him what he would do to repair it, and he said, replace it and put it in sand.
  • 02:42:34
    So that's the expert from the past.
  • 02:42:37
    I mean, if you look around the country, lots of places have gone to the sand, I mean, commercial developments and so on and so forth.
  • 02:42:45
    But it's the mortar that's the problem and what's deteriorating, both underneath it and around the bricks.
  • 02:42:51
    I mean, you just got to look at them.
  • 02:42:52
    That's why they're wobbly, that's why they're cracked.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:42:55
    I will say that we've had these in front of City Hall for a couple of years with a lot of gear trucks on them and a lot of heavy stuff and don't seem to be having any problems.
  • 02:43:03
    We've got them in quartz square and sand and that's the standard in Europe too that they're used.
  • 02:43:09
    We can continue to look and I think we do want to look at some of the three to one aspects and see just to make sure we make a final decision.
  • 02:43:15
    Because you feel pretty confident.
  • 02:43:16
    Right, right.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:43:21
    I do have a random hodgepodge of comments to make as well.
  • 02:43:32
    First of all, I tend to agree with Mr. Huja and his general perspective that we've got a good thing going downtown and
  • 02:43:43
    You know, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater in the process of rehabilitating them all.
  • 02:43:48
    And they've done a very good job of trying to stay true to the original vision of the mall.
  • 02:43:53
    But I do believe that this current plan includes a lot of bells and whistles that I don't believe are necessary or warranted or even attractive.
  • 02:44:05
    Obviously the biggest change has already happened to the original design of the mall, which is allowing vehicles to cross over the mall.
  • 02:44:12
    And we've done that already.
  • 02:44:15
    Some of us didn't support that, some of us did support it, but it's already happened.
  • 02:44:18
    So I think there's an openness in the part of the community to changing the mall.
  • 02:44:21
    We've done it already, we've made major changes to the mall.
  • 02:44:24
    But still, the original vision of the mall I think still works and we don't want to
  • 02:44:27
    mess it up too much.
  • 02:44:30
    From a process standpoint, one thing that sort of frustrated me as I was preparing for tonight was the budget.
  • 02:44:39
    And I think it would be very helpful for the meeting on the, oh, and the other process question is, we keep saying June 30th, but I have it written down as June 23rd.
  • 02:44:46
    Okay, so it is June 30th.
  • 02:44:50
    Okay.
  • 02:44:51
    And what's the time again?
  • 02:44:52
    Do you know?
  • 02:44:56
    OK, 6 or 6.30 at City Space
  • 02:44:59
    OK.
  • 02:45:00
    But to have a functional breakdown on the budget, not just a breakdown of this street costs this much, or this section will cost this much, this section will cost this much.
  • 02:45:10
    When Mr. Huja asks, how much does it cost, I forget what you asked, the bollards, we should have that broken down so we know exactly how much of this is going to lighting, how much is going to bollards, how much is going to bricks, in addition to the breakdown that you have now, just to make it easier for people like me to understand what we're really being asked to pay for here.
  • 02:45:28
    I agree with doing it all at once and I commend you for taking that step in terms of minimizing impact on businesses and mobile users.
  • 02:45:36
    It was a very positive step.
  • 02:45:38
    In terms of some of the specific recommended improvements, I personally don't find the Sister City Plaza at all compelling.
  • 02:45:48
    I think if we're going to do something
  • 02:45:52
    Commemorative with that plaza, I think a local history or something, but I just didn't find the Sister City concept to be a compelling design orientation for that plaza, and that's my personal opinion.
  • 02:46:06
    I agree with Dr. Brown on the newspaper boxes.
  • 02:46:09
    I don't have a problem with the way they are now.
  • 02:46:11
    I think it sort of adds to the urban feel of the downtown area to have a hodgepodge of multicolored newspaper boxes.
  • 02:46:17
    It doesn't bother me at all.
  • 02:46:20
    I also have not yet been convinced on the idea of the permanent or semi-permanent cafe bollards.
  • 02:46:28
    You know, I'd be interested to hear from some of those cafe owners if they really do feel like this would be a positive thing and I might be willing to change my mind on that, but you know, I don't find that terribly compelling.
  • 02:46:41
    See, I also don't find any fountains terribly compelling.
  • 02:46:44
    I agree with Mr. Huja on that.
  • 02:46:46
    If we can find private dollars for the fountain in front of the Omni, great, but I don't
  • 02:46:51
    I think we've got some good fountains in place now.
  • 02:46:54
    I don't know that we need more, and they're all pretty expensive.
  • 02:46:58
    Yes, on the drinking fountains, yes, on the 4x12 bricks if we can make it work.
  • 02:47:05
    I actually, having said that, don't have any problems with the ones out in front of the steering hall.
  • 02:47:09
    I think they look great, but if we can find the 4x12 and stay true to the original footprint,
  • 02:47:15
    That's fine.
  • 02:47:16
    I don't find the addition of public art on the mall, the new public art, compelling.
  • 02:47:23
    I agree with Mr. Huja on that.
  • 02:47:25
    I also agree with Mr. Huja on the Water Street improvements in front of the Omni.
  • 02:47:31
    I think it looks fine as it is now.
  • 02:47:33
    I also believe if we can keep the lights the way they are now and improve the access for fire vehicles on the side streets, I'd like to keep those lights the way they are now
  • 02:47:45
    and also Salvage and Roar of the Trees, and we're planning to salvage now.
  • 02:47:50
    If we can do the partial side streets, as Mr. Huja suggested, at least as an entryway to the mall, even if we're not breaking over the side streets entirely, at least to do as the portion of the side streets immediately adjacent to the mall, if we can try to fold that in, I think that would be great.
  • 02:48:09
    I happen to think that the idea of a children's play space has a lot of merit.
  • 02:48:13
    Even though I'm up here saying that we need to simplify this thing, I'll be a little hypocritical for a moment.
  • 02:48:19
    It doesn't have to be a playground, although Ithaca, New York, on their downtown mall, has a full-fledged playground on their mall.
  • 02:48:25
    The one that I find more compelling is the one in Boulder, Colorado, where they have really creative play spaces for kids that don't look like playgrounds, but they're really, they're blending well to the texture of their mall, and being a parent of two children, I know that
  • 02:48:40
    A lot of parents when they go downtown I think would find that a very attractive part of the downtown to be able to have a play space for kids in addition to the little rolled off carousel there.
  • 02:48:54
    Let's see, oh in terms of using the bricks
  • 02:48:57
    I'm fine trying to figure out some of the use for the bricks that we can salvage but these bricks were not designed as pavers.
  • 02:49:05
    These were bricks that you would build a house with and build a building with.
  • 02:49:10
    These were not bricks that were designed to be for the use that we have been using them.
  • 02:49:15
    So I don't find the idea compelling to pull them out, spend the money on cleaning them up and then putting them back in because we know their history.
  • 02:49:26
    We know they're not going to last and if we can find another use for them somewhere else in some other project, great.
  • 02:49:35
    And in general, I think we can save some money and have a simpler project and I think it can be a good project and I look forward to having it come back at some point and also would encourage people to participate in June 30th and have their two cents.
  • 02:49:51
    Thank you.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:49:52
    I'd just like to say I agree with the mayor on the Sister City Plaza.
  • 02:49:56
    I disagree with him on the play areas.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:50:00
    I guess just to sum up where I am on it, I want to try to keep it as close to what it is today and make as few changes as we have to.
  • 02:50:19
    to preserve their original design and also to save as much money as we can on them.
  • 02:50:27
    And that's, in a nutshell, where I am.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:50:33
    Any other thoughts?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 02:50:36
    Given the childhood obesity that we're dealing with now, I think the play area
  • 02:50:49
    would be a timely addition to the law.
  • 02:50:53
    I do have also concerns about the sister city.
  • 02:50:56
    I think that's a luxury item that we could defer now, but the emphasis should be the infrastructure and the rehab.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:51:11
    Okay, thank you all for your comments.
  • 02:51:13
    Thank you for your presentation.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:51:19
    I'd like to explore a possibility of what I think we agree on.
  • 02:51:30
    May I make a turn to that?
  • 02:51:31
    Sure.
  • 02:51:33
    But no expansion of the West End of the Mall, no change of the program if we don't own it.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:51:39
    Can you slow down a little bit?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:51:41
    No expansion of the West End of the Mall from the University
  • 02:51:47
    No change to plant or family.
  • 02:51:49
    No new fountains.
  • 02:51:51
    No change to lights.
  • 02:51:52
    No waterfowls.
  • 02:51:54
    No anything.
  • 02:51:54
    But I will go ahead with that.
  • 02:51:56
    Forgotten bricks and sand.
  • 02:51:59
    No new birds for restrooms.
  • 02:52:01
    No parks for the side streets in case.
  • 02:52:04
    No open place.
  • 02:52:05
    Yes to Wi-Fi.
  • 02:52:07
    So grateful if you can use them.
  • 02:52:12
    Great bands.
  • 02:52:15
    Good ones.
  • 02:52:16
    The Sister City Plaza, Greatly Fountain and Safe Trees.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:52:22
    Any concerns about that list?
  • 02:52:23
    What is that, a motion?
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:52:25
    We're just trying to get some consensus.
  • 02:52:28
    Okay, I'm agreed most of it.
  • 02:52:30
    I just don't want to take action on it until after we hear what people in the community have to say.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:52:34
    Yeah, I agree with you.
  • 02:52:36
    Somebody might change my mind on something.
  • 02:52:39
    And I'd like to, I'm not quite sure what you mean on the side streets.
  • 02:52:43
    We have to flesh that out now, but I'd like to be a little clearer on that before I say, yeah, I support that.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:52:49
    Right now it's really hard to figure out from side streets that you do them all.
  • 02:52:54
    And if the sketch showed, if there was one or two quads there, just to show that there's a mall entrance in that direction.
  • 02:53:02
    If you're driving on Water Street and Water Street.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 02:53:05
    I understand that concept.
  • 02:53:06
    I'm just saying I don't really understand exactly what it means.
  • 02:53:09
    Yeah, it has to be designed, yeah.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:53:10
    Just for clarification, what did you say about this review?
  • 02:53:19
    said again?
  • 02:53:21
    Reuse of bricks.
  • 02:53:22
    I didn't say I would reuse of bricks.
  • 02:53:25
    I conceded to the consensus.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 02:53:32
    Jim, are there any items you noted that we should discuss?
  • 02:53:38
    Is there any practical issue around the grates?
  • 02:53:41
    Around the grates?
  • 02:53:42
    The grates.
  • 02:53:43
    Reusing them?
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:53:44
    No, they're not ADA compliant.
  • 02:53:46
    They're opening is too wide.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 02:53:49
    So what does that mean?
  • 02:53:51
    You have to label a replacement?
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 02:53:53
    If we want to bring them all into compliance with the requirements of ADA, then they would need to be a narrower opening grade.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:53:58
    If you change it, then we need to bring them into ADA.
  • 02:54:01
    If you don't change them, you don't need to do anything.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:54:06
    Well, again, this would be something that's helpful to know what we're talking about cost-wise because it's a matter of adherence to ADA or compliance with law.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:54:14
    What grades are we talking about?
  • 02:54:16
    The tree rates around the big trees.
  • 02:54:20
    I think one thing Mr. Huja said that nobody else mentioned was keeping the drainage rentals and the profile essentially the same as it is now.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:54:38
    Right, right.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:54:41
    I think that anybody have a problem, that's not a problem.
  • 02:54:45
    So you're talking about tree graves?
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:54:47
    Yes.
  • 02:54:48
    Okay.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:54:50
    No, I think, one thing I didn't get Mr. Huja's comment on the newspaper boxes, it seemed the consensus is leave what we have down there now and not go to the common box.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:55:02
    I agree with you, but I don't have three of those.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:55:05
    You agree?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:55:05
    I never had a card of three.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:55:08
    You only, you would like to go to the new ones, but okay.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:55:12
    These boxes, no, okay.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:55:14
    I don't care.
  • 02:55:16
    I think this is very helpful and it will give us some things to start working on and be able to address at the June 30 meeting and moving forward so we can meet.
  • 02:55:24
    We agree, Mr. Huja, we want to take as long as we have to take, but we also want to be able to bid it and get it done this year while the prices are good and do it in one year.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:55:32
    Let me ask, what's the timeline after this meeting on the 30th of June and when do we have to get this out to bid and make a final decision, I guess?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:55:40
    If we don't come back to you at the second meeting in July and get final answers, we're not going to get it done this year.
  • 02:55:47
    I would say that you're talking about taking things out, not necessarily making a lot of changes.
  • 02:56:07
    Joe may say something different behind me, but he'll
  • 02:56:09
    He's working for us, so.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:56:12
    Mr. Taliaferro, we're in the swing vote right now on whether or not we have some kind of children's play space.
  • 02:56:19
    Not to put you on the spot, but... Well, let me think about it.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:56:22
    I'll take it under advisement.
  • 02:56:24
    I just want to hear what people have to say.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 02:56:26
    It's fine what we talked about today.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:56:28
    Yeah, you have another proposal?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:56:30
    Well, one of the thoughts is that we don't have to do it right now.
  • 02:56:34
    We can go through more process.
  • 02:56:36
    and come back and do it later if that's what we want to do.
  • 02:56:38
    Again, because we're talking about sand laid bricks, it's a matter of, and the concept we had was a place, a space similar to Boulder, and again, not, they're just very Boulder specific, but something children could play on, but it wouldn't be a, playground is not the right thing, but whatever we do, we can come back
  • 02:56:56
    I'd like to hear what folks have to say about that.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 02:57:13
    Can you still engage the Discovery Museum?
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:57:26
    We had talked about getting some brainstorming.
  • 02:57:29
    and some kids involved.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 02:57:30
    Right, if we do it, we have committed to having children involved in the process to help decide what it is.
  • 02:57:39
    And right now, with it being summer, we've missed a window of opportunity trying to figure out how best to do that.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:57:45
    But you're not opposed to coming forward with some ideas.
  • 02:57:51
    No, no.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 02:57:53
    I think it's the way I kind of envisioned it was to have an area for children, let's say from toddler, from preschool, maybe kindergarten, just an area where children can interact and move while people are waiting for reservations and restaurants in between.
  • 02:58:12
    I was never crazy about the fountain idea anyway because being on the mall and having wet kids isn't that much fun either.
  • 02:58:26
    But to have a place where the kids can kind of burn off some energy in a place that's theirs.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:58:32
    All right, thank you Mr. Tolbert.
  • 02:58:36
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 02:58:36
    And we're going to move on now.
  • 02:58:42
    We've got a lot left on our agenda tonight.
  • 02:58:45
    The next item relates to this very topic, which is a public hearing appropriation budget amendment for $4.5 million from downtown mall restoration, first of two meetings.
  • 02:58:57
    And the purpose, just to be clear, the purpose of this appropriation is not to add any new monies to the downtown mall renovation project.
  • 02:59:08
    The purpose of this appropriation is to move up monies that were already allocated in our Capital Improvement Program
  • 02:59:16
    to be able to do the project all at once.
  • 02:59:19
    And I think one of the questions that's been raised in the public side, which is a very good question, is why are we approving a specific amount tonight, why are we being asked to approve a specific amount tonight when we don't know what the final price tag is going to be?
  • 02:59:36
    So my suggestion is going to be, let's go ahead and take the public, we already scheduled a public hearing, let's have the public hearing, see if there's a motion to approve it on the first meeting, but delay the final approval, i.e.
  • 02:59:49
    delay the second meeting until after we've had this public meeting and after we've come to a clearer consensus on what the final scope of work is going to be.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 03:00:00
    So we do that mid-July.
  • 03:00:02
    I think that all fits together.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:00:04
    All right, so do you want to introduce this or you've pretty much introduced it?
  • 03:00:09
    Okay, so we're going to open the public hearing on the budget amendment and the first person to sign it to speak is Colette Hall.
• • SPEAKER_02
  • 03:00:29
    Good evening Mr. Mayor and Councillors, Colette Hall, one of one Robertson Lane,
  • 03:00:34
    Most citizens are under the impression that the mall renovations will cost approximately 7 to 7.5 million dollars.
  • 03:00:42
    This has been a widely published amount.
  • 03:00:45
    It is important to keep this project and all projects within budget.
  • 03:00:49
    By changing the proposed FY 2009 budget, specifically the CIP portion, it is of utmost importance that future funding does not increase as it tends to do with new items where their money demand heads.
  • 03:01:06
    Although I am not saying the CIP budget should not be revised so that the mall renovation can finish sooner, I am as a taxpayer urging fiscal caution regarding future budgets and bond issuances for this project.
  • 03:01:24
    In addition, I, the taxpayer, request that this be written into an ordinance that future budgets will not exceed total mall renovation costs if money or bonds are appropriated earlier than the original budgetary plan.
  • 03:01:41
    There are Charlottesville residents and other neighborhoods that think this renovation is not necessary and a waste of city resources.
  • 03:01:49
    That said, if the mall is renovated, please approve a strict design with no unnecessary additions which could account for project overruns.
  • 03:02:01
    And then Mr. Mayor, if you will indulge me, because this is a very important point, I want to put on my President of the neighborhood hat and say, I read in one of the recent, I read recently in one of the
  • 03:02:16
    newspapers here in the city about the mall renovation that it could be done in a four month time that you have talked about this evening and Mr. Fowler has talked about this evening, if the work is mostly done at night.
  • 03:02:33
    or a large portion of the work done at night.
  • 03:02:36
    Now I must add that this could be very adverse to the North Downtown residents who live on the mall or directly off the mall because this is when most people sleep, rest or relax.
  • 03:02:52
    And I just also want to mention I do hope at the June 30th meeting the public can speak
  • 03:03:00
    I've been to several of these downtown meetings here on the mall and I've only been able to listen.
  • 03:03:06
    I've never been able to speak.
  • 03:03:08
    So if I am not going to have the opportunity to speak, I won't go.
  • 03:03:12
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:03:13
    Thank you, Ms. Hall.
  • 03:03:14
    David Repas.
• • SPEAKER_18
  • 03:03:22
    David Repas, 227 East Jefferson Street in the city.
  • 03:03:27
    I'm very concerned with the process here.
  • 03:03:31
    Why do you have to have a first reading on appropriation when the public has not been involved?
  • 03:03:41
    You're having a hearing here tonight.
  • 03:03:43
    I have just seen the plan.
  • 03:03:45
    Am I supposed to make an instant decision that I like it?
  • 03:03:48
    You've had enough trouble yourselves.
  • 03:03:52
    Why do you have to go ahead tonight?
  • 03:03:55
    Can't you wait until after the public has had a chance to see the plan and to react to it on the 30th?
  • 03:04:05
    The public is an afterthought here.
  • 03:04:09
    If it hadn't been for Mrs. Edwards, I don't even know if you'd have brought up and there was a meeting planned for the 23rd and now it's shifted to the 30th, obviously we're an afterthought.
  • 03:04:21
    The public
  • 03:04:23
    may have some word and you may listen but certainly if you take action tonight even on the first reading you are giving a green light to this project and you deny the public any leverage in saying okay go ahead and change your budget.
  • 03:04:48
    I can't make that decision tonight because I've just seen the plan.
  • 03:04:53
    So why not postpone, you have until the second meeting of July to make your final decision, give the public a chance to see the plan and certainly before the 30th meeting get it up on the internet where we can see it quickly and easily and make sure there is a public hearing as Ms. Hall just mentioned
  • 03:05:21
    either on the 30th or your first council meeting thereafter.
  • 03:05:25
    Otherwise, we the public, it's been stakeholders, it's been BAR, it's been you.
  • 03:05:33
    And the presentation tonight was to you.
  • 03:05:36
    Council, this is what we're doing.
  • 03:05:38
    Council, this is that.
  • 03:05:39
    We just happen to be sitting in the audience or we wouldn't have known about it.
  • 03:05:46
    So please,
  • 03:05:47
    Let's try to get the public involved, especially when it's their money that's being spent.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:05:54
    Thank you, Mr. Repas.
  • 03:05:55
    Nobody else has signed up to speak.
  • 03:05:56
    Is there anybody else that would like to speak on the budget amendment?
  • 03:06:02
    If not, we will close the public hearing.
  • 03:06:06
    Comments, questions?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:06:07
    Yes.
  • 03:06:08
    Mr. Repas, this is a good point.
  • 03:06:10
    There's no hurry to.
  • 03:06:11
    I think staff has the intent of the, the intent of the council.
  • 03:06:16
    and that if you are supportive of moving the money in whatever way you need to move, I would say it would be good to wait until at least after doing 30th.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:06:26
    Any other thoughts?
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 03:06:32
    Anybody have a problem waiting?
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 03:06:40
    As long as there is agreement that you want to move forward and do it all at once,
  • 03:06:44
    I think we can go through the process.
  • 03:06:46
    We can come back in July.
  • 03:06:48
    You can consider it on first reading and come back because we're not having a first meeting in August and formally appropriate the money and we still can stay on schedule to bid.
  • 03:06:57
    That's fine with me.
  • 03:06:58
    And that way all the issues get out there.
  • 03:07:04
    Wouldn't that sequence work?
  • 03:07:07
    That's fine.
  • 03:07:09
    I think we heard you want to do it all at once.
  • 03:07:13
    Right.
  • 03:07:14
    We'll be fine as long as on July 16th we know when we're ready to go because we'll start committing
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 03:07:29
    a lot of resources at that point to getting it done.
  • 03:07:33
    If I could add just one thing, www.mydowntownmall.org is where this is all, all the plans are there, the information, the website, the server went down last week and it was out a few days, but it's been there since first of the year.
  • 03:07:48
    .com, I'm sorry, mydowntownmall.com and that's where we're posting all the things about it, meeting dates and schedules, but the plans are there.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:08:01
    In terms of the night construction, can you address that?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 03:08:04
    Yes, that's used to me.
  • 03:08:07
    We do want to work extended hours and not just work a normal contractor six hours a day to get it done, but we are going to ask them to work in the early evening, but we recognize we have a noise ordinance we have to respect and we will not be working when folks are ready to go to bed.
  • 03:08:28
    They've talked about having three or four crews working at once and instead of working two shifts, they'll work in different places and expedite that way.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 03:08:41
    Just to repass his comments in perspective, we already have appropriated money in the CIP, designated money in the CIP to make mall improvements.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 03:08:54
    That's correct.
  • 03:08:54
    As of July 1st, we'll have a balance of a little over $3 million.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 03:08:59
    But the difference is that we're now proposing to do it all at once which requires a budget amendment as opposed to doing it over the course of a couple of years.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 03:09:09
    Right, the current CIP has money in 2010, 11 and 12, a million and a half dollars in each of those years and the proposal is to take those dollars and move them forward to 2009.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:09:21
    Let me say that I agree with the concept of pooling all the way.
  • 03:09:25
    at the same time.
  • 03:09:26
    I don't think I agree to amount to the dollars that are in there.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:09:30
    Well, that's why we're going to postpone the, but as of by the time we get to the vote, we'll have a clearer sense of what the price tag is.
  • 03:09:40
    Right, Albemarle will have done their cost projections.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 03:09:42
    And part of that is that we've gotten more public input as to some of the extra features, whether people would like to see them in there or not.
  • 03:09:50
    Right.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:09:51
    Okay.
  • 03:09:51
    Thank you, Mr. Tolbert.
  • 03:09:52
    Thank you.
  • 03:09:52
    Thank you, Mr. Repas.
  • 03:09:54
    And Ms. Hogg?
  • 03:09:56
    We're going to take a five minute break.
  • 03:09:58
    We've been here four hours now.
  • 03:09:59
    We're going to take a five minute break and reconvene at 10.15.
• • 03:10:28
    I am here today to talk to you about the
  • 03:10:59
    I've been waiting for you, I've been waiting
  • 03:11:39
    Thanks for watching
  • 03:12:12
    Music playing
  • 03:13:50
    and David Brown.
  • 03:14:31
    P.S.
• • SPEAKER_03
  • 03:15:01
    and David
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:15:54
    Who's missing?
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:16:24
    Okay, just waiting for Mr. Taliaferro.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 03:16:45
    I was going to say All I have to say is
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:17:12
    Thank you very much.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:17:34
    Okay, next item on our agenda is Public Hearing Ordinance regarding the Conveyance of City Land on A1 St. to VDOT for Widening the Roadways.
  • 03:17:49
    The first to reading is Scott Hendricks.
• • SPEAKER_26
  • 03:17:56
    Good evening, Council.
  • 03:17:58
    I'm Scott Hendricks with City Staff and Public Works Facilities Management.
  • 03:18:04
    We are here to request that council convey a small portion of land to VDOT.
  • 03:18:13
    The reason for the conveyance is that the city is ready to begin physical development of approximately six acres of land in Albemarle County, 1545 Avon Street extended just south of town.
  • 03:18:24
    The purpose of the development is for construction of a new CTS operations center.
  • 03:18:29
    This center will house all of CTS's administration and maintenance functions.
  • 03:18:34
    Avon Street Extended is a VDOT property and as such this project will require modifications to the property in the form of widening of lanes, installation of additional curb and gutter and drainage, installation of turning lanes, some quite long for buses, installation of Excel and Decel lanes.
  • 03:18:53
    The modifications to Avon Street Extended will require that a small portion of city-owned land on three contiguous parcels be conveyed to VDOT
  • 03:19:01
    Post parcels are 77E1-1, 1801 square feet, 77E2-1, 356 square feet, 77E2-3, 3121 square feet for a total of 5278 square feet or 0.12 acres.
  • 03:19:24
    VDOT through traffic studies and design standards determines and approves improvements to their properties.
  • 03:19:30
    As such, for this development project to proceed, the right-of-way conveyance needs to occur.
  • 03:19:36
    You should have in your packets three plats prepared by curcues and associates, land surveyors, defining the right-of-way changes.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:19:44
    Thank you, Mr. Hendricks.
  • 03:19:45
    Any questions for Mr. Hendricks?
  • 03:19:49
    If not, we'll open the public hearing.
  • 03:19:51
    If nobody has signed up to speak, is anybody from the public would like to speak?
  • 03:19:57
    If not, we will close the public hearing.
  • 03:19:59
    Is there any comments, questions, or a motion to approve the ordinance?
  • 03:20:04
    If there are no comments, I'll move the ordinance.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 03:20:06
    Second.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:20:07
    All right.
  • 03:20:07
    The ordinance can move in seconds, the first of two readings.
  • 03:20:09
    I'll take it up again.
  • 03:20:10
    Thank you, Mr. Hendricks.
  • 03:20:12
    Next item is a report, Dr. Lolan Peek from the Thomas Jefferson Health District on the health mapping system.
  • 03:20:20
    And I want to thank Dr.
  • 03:20:21
    Peek because she got bumped once before, maybe twice before now, and appreciate your perseverance.
  • 03:20:27
    Welcome.
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 03:20:27
    Well, I'm happy to be here.
  • 03:20:28
    Thank you.
  • 03:20:29
    And I have a PowerPoint presentation, so good to make you move.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 03:20:39
    Do you have the mic, or is there a mic?
• • SPEAKER_04
  • 03:20:49
    Okay, alright, that sounds good.
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 03:20:53
    Okay.
  • 03:20:54
    I'm here to give you an update on our MAP process, which is actually misleading on the agenda item.
  • 03:21:02
    It's actually Mobilizing for Action Using Planning and Partnerships, and this is a way to do a health assessment in our community.
  • 03:21:10
    We started this process over a year ago, and we're doing it so that we can get a baseline of our community's health so that we can work towards being America's healthiest city.
  • 03:21:22
    I really believe that if you want to have a strong public health system and advance the health in a community that it really does need to start at a local level and then working with the state and our national partners but to really be a healthy community it has to start at a local level and we also in public health really today know that the only way to really make advances in public health is to do that through partnership and we've brought the community in to partner in this
  • 03:21:51
    Strategic Planning Tool are with us.
  • 03:21:56
    So MAP is a community-wide strategic planning tool and it's really to improve health.
  • 03:22:01
    It's a way to prioritize our community health issues, to identify resources to address community health issues and to take action.
  • 03:22:11
    It's actually a national model.
  • 03:22:13
    It was developed by the CDC and the National Association of County and City Health Officials.
  • 03:22:18
    So it's been used by communities throughout the country.
  • 03:22:22
    As I said it's a strategic planning model and this is sort of a drawing of what we do.
  • 03:22:30
    There's four different assessments and those are the outside areas and we use those four assessments to
  • 03:22:38
    to identify strategic issues and then try to formulate a plan for the community and then actually try to put that plan in place with our partners, evaluate it and make sure that we're moving forward.
  • 03:22:51
    So we have actually completed those four assessments now.
  • 03:22:55
    As I said, we've been working over the last year with our partners and on a very shoestring budget, I've been able to do quite a bit of work and gather a lot of data.
  • 03:23:05
    I have to say thank you to the University of Virginia
  • 03:23:07
    public health program because they have provided us a lot of support to be able to do this.
  • 03:23:13
    So I'm going to give you just a quick briefing on the findings or some of the highlights of the four assessments and then tell you what our next steps are.
  • 03:23:24
    So as I said, we brought the community together.
  • 03:23:26
    Here are the steering committee members.
  • 03:23:28
    As you can see, we tried to pull in leadership from all of the different health organizations in this city and county.
  • 03:23:35
    So the first assessment that we did was a community health status.
  • 03:23:39
    And what we did was collect all of the data that was already in existence from other agencies that really shows the status of the health.
  • 03:23:48
    So we looked at diabetes.
  • 03:23:53
    cancer and mortality and injury and then we looked at some of the issues that affect health like quality of life and the environment.
  • 03:24:03
    So we used the indicators that were recommended by the MAP program and wherever possible when the steering committee asked us to get additional information we were able to do that.
  • 03:24:15
    So what was included in your packet today was just a summary of this community health status so you have the executive summary
  • 03:24:23
    It's actually like a 150 page book that's at the printer right now and when we get that we will be sharing it with the community.
  • 03:24:30
    So some of the potential problems that came up, well first of all let me say that there were many, many strengths in our community.
  • 03:24:36
    We have a lot to work with and a lot of wonderful partners, but just because time is short I'm gonna highlight some of the areas that we still need to work on if we want to advance the health of our community.
  • 03:24:51
    and one of them is access to care, also chronic disease and risk factors that contribute to that, maternal and child health, injury and health disparities.
  • 03:25:01
    So I'm just going to show you a few examples.
  • 03:25:03
    Go ahead.
  • 03:25:05
    So one thing is that we still do have a lot of people in our area that don't have health insurance and this is just an estimate, there aren't exact numbers, but it's
  • 03:25:15
    It's possible that up to 16% of people that live in Charlottesville don't have health insurance.
  • 03:25:19
    Some of those people actually earn over 200% of the federal poverty level, so a lot of what we see are working poor who really can't afford health insurance.
  • 03:25:30
    Another one problem that we have seen over and over again is the need for dental care for low-income persons, both for adults and children.
  • 03:25:40
    We're very lucky now that we have some resources in our community that we can provide more dental care for children, but we really need to make sure that children are accessing the insurance that's available for them and getting enrolled in those programs, so we need to continue to work on that.
  • 03:25:55
    We're not so lucky in having a payment source for low income adults for dental care and that is a critical need that we need to continue to address.
  • 03:26:06
    Another problem that you alluded to is the growing number of children that are either overweight or obese in our area.
  • 03:26:15
    If you look, over 40% of children, fifth graders who live or go to the public schools in Albemarle and Charlottesville are either overweight or obese.
  • 03:26:27
    So just like we see in the national level locally too, this is something that we need to address and keep working towards improving in our community.
  • 03:26:36
    Another thing that a risk factor for chronic diseases is tobacco use and while we've done remarkably well in the last 50 years in reducing the amount of smoke that people that are smoking in the United States, we still have a little ways to go.
  • 03:26:53
    You can see that the Healthy People 2010 target is to have 12% of people smoke and we're still at 20% in our health district and that has gone up from the last time the survey was done.
  • 03:27:05
    So while we've done great things with smoking, it's something that we have to continue to work on if we want to see the benefits in reducing chronic disease.
  • 03:27:12
    Another thing that we found was when we looked at the maternal and child health indicators that we saw infant mortality as still an issue.
  • 03:27:21
    This is something that we see nationally and locally here too.
  • 03:27:25
    This is a health disparity issue as well because we see more African American babies dying than white babies.
  • 03:27:31
    So this is something that we need to continue to look at and there's other infant maternal and child health indicators that are important as well.
  • 03:27:45
    The issue in public health is injury, and sometimes we forget about injury.
  • 03:27:51
    It's something that we need to continually address and work on.
  • 03:27:53
    45% of deaths from unintentional injuries are from motor vehicle accidents, so it's important to continue to focus on that.
  • 03:28:02
    And when we look at older persons in our community, there's significant risk.
  • 03:28:09
    for falling, and when we look at hospitalizations for unintentional injuries, 62% do come from falls.
  • 03:28:17
    So as I said when we were talking about infant mortality, one underlying issue that if we want to advance the health of our community that we would need to address would be health disparities.
  • 03:28:29
    To really improve health for our whole community, we really need to look at areas where we do see a range in outcomes.
  • 03:28:37
    And we saw that throughout our data.
  • 03:28:39
    We did try to look at it.
  • 03:28:41
    broken down by race and other ways as we were able to as it was available.
  • 03:28:46
    And we saw in several areas, this is just one example, this is the overall death rate in our district by race and we do see it higher among African Americans.
  • 03:28:55
    So again, to advance our health in our community, this is something that we would need to look at and put specific interventions in place to try to address that.
  • 03:29:05
    The second assessment that we did was a qualitative assessment and what we did was have 10 focus groups.
  • 03:29:11
    We had 100 participants that we tried to get representatives from the full spectrum of the community, from teens to older persons, working people, non-working people.
  • 03:29:24
    and we asked them to, based on other health assessments that had been done in the past in our community, building on that, we asked them to prioritize health issues and to help us address community resources available.
  • 03:29:38
    When we, among all of the people that participated, we looked at their top five priorities and they were dental care, nutrition and exercise, mental health, primary care, substance abuse, teen pregnancies, and sexually transmitted diseases.
  • 03:29:53
    The third assessment we did was called a local public health system assessment.
  • 03:29:58
    This was a CDC assessment that was put together and it's done across communities across the United States.
  • 03:30:05
    When we talk about the local public health system, we're not just talking about the health department.
  • 03:30:09
    The health department can make very little impact on the public's health alone.
  • 03:30:13
    It's all through partnership and so while we have the health department in the middle,
  • 03:30:17
    It's only working through all of these organizations and all of these organizations working together that we can actually have a strong public health system.
  • 03:30:25
    So we tried to assess the entire public health system, not just the health department.
  • 03:30:30
    We found three potential areas where we might be able to focus to improve the community's health.
  • 03:30:37
    the need to mobilize community partnerships to identify and solve health problems.
  • 03:30:42
    The second one was to evaluate the health programs that we have in place to make sure that they're working well.
  • 03:30:49
    And the third one was to monitor the health status, which is what we're actually doing now, the community health assessment.
  • 03:30:55
    and then the last assessment that we did was called Forces of Change and that was also a qualitative assessment and what we did was have a discussion with all of our MAP steering committee members and tried to get them to think about issues that wouldn't typically come up in any other type of assessment that were big like the elephants in the room, what do we need to be thinking about in our community as we move forward with planning and some of the things that they talked about
  • 03:31:22
    Our aging population, one of the things that we found when we looked at demographics is that just like the country is aging, this area is aging as well and that's where we see the most growth.
  • 03:31:33
    We also see an increasing multicultural population in our area.
  • 03:31:38
    Right now we're facing a slowing economy and that means less money for public programs but also more people who need services.
  • 03:31:45
    And then another thing that could affect the health of our community is possibly the health reform debate that's going on in this country.
  • 03:31:52
    So back to the map model, as you can see we brought our partners together, we used the city's vision of being America's Healthiest City, we've completed our four assessments, and now we're to the place where we're going to be working through all of these data, and there are a lot of them, to come up with what we feel like are strategic issues for our community and maybe some
  • 03:32:17
    then putting together goals and strategies that we could work on as a whole community to try to move our health forward.
  • 03:32:24
    And then we hope to see programs, partnerships come out of that so that we can continue to see how we're doing as we go forward.
  • 03:32:34
    That's it.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:32:52
    Thank you very much, Dr.
  • 03:33:03
    Peek.
  • 03:33:04
    You're doing great work.
  • 03:33:05
    Anybody have questions?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:33:07
    I just want to say that it really is an excellent start for health planning to have the basic data.
  • 03:33:13
    I'm pleased you're doing that and I hope to proceed to the actual phase some of these days.
  • 03:33:18
    Thank you.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 03:33:19
    I'd just like to make a comment.
  • 03:33:20
    I've had the privilege of being in a number of these meetings.
  • 03:33:23
    It's been fascinating work.
  • 03:33:25
    To me, it's really interesting to see to take all these various data sets and try to tease out what issues really are significant and which ones aren't.
  • 03:33:37
    there are differences pretty much across the board between the health of both races and the health of city residents compared to county residents.
  • 03:33:48
    And I think it really stems from the fact that the county median household income is 77% greater than that of the city household median income.
  • 03:34:01
    And I think that's, I mean,
  • 03:34:04
    A lot of the issues that we're going to face are probably going to get worse before they get better given the economic climate and I think it's really important for us to map out an action plan and a list of community priorities.
  • 03:34:17
    So I've really enjoyed it and I really appreciate your good work on this.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 03:34:28
    It was good to have the
  • 03:34:32
    objective information is disturbing as it is.
  • 03:34:35
    I was aware of the health care disparities, especially within the African American community.
  • 03:34:42
    But seeing this information really makes it a glaring concern.
  • 03:34:49
    And because of the way the information has been
  • 03:34:54
    provided in the time that's gone into compiling it, this is really a good opportunity to start addressing those issues that we know have been in the community in a way that's going to be really pragmatic in a way to move forward.
  • 03:35:07
    I've been, for the past few months, working with Dr.
  • 03:35:11
    Peek and Mike Svetz to
  • 03:35:13
    put together a health care summit for the fall to address some of the issues and I wanted to wait until we got some of the map data to see what direction we should go and some of the planning has been consistent with some of the cancers and the diabetes and the obesity issues but I'm really thrown off by the infant mortality rate in our community and I know there has to be a priority that we address
  • 03:35:42
    and also given the comment that Council Brown made that when we move forward with the idea of a work session on the high cost of being poor, that a health care dynamic has to be part of that work session or part of that discussion to see how we can even out the access playing field for people getting good health care.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:36:10
    Any other comments?
  • 03:36:13
    Thank you again.
  • 03:36:14
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 03:36:15
    We'll have the final plan done hopefully in the fall, so I hope to be able to come back then and share that information with you.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 03:36:23
    Great.
  • 03:36:23
    And thank you for all the good work that's coming to this.
  • 03:36:27
    This is a lot of good work.
  • 03:36:28
    Thank you.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:36:32
    Okay, next item on our agenda is a report on Saka Jawaya, historic marker Mary Joy Scala.
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 03:36:46
    Last October you asked the city's historic resource committee to address the issue of the depiction of Sacajawea on the Lewis and Clark statue and they initially prepared interpretive language with questions at the end and they worked on this for several meetings and I've attached that as your attachment number one.
  • 03:37:08
    That version was circulated to Ms. Jennifer Tidwell who originally appeared before you
  • 03:37:14
    to request some sort of marker or some way to address the statue.
  • 03:37:22
    Also Mr.
  • 03:37:22
    Guy Lopez, whom you heard from earlier, and he suggested sending it to Ms. Rosina George, who is a descendant of Sacagawea.
  • 03:37:31
    And we did that, and Ms. Rosina George and her sister Emma George responded with the language that I have in italics
  • 03:37:40
    in your report, and when the committee read this they strongly preferred it and they noted the family connection and the directness of the comments and they thought they were very moving.
  • 03:37:51
    The Historic Resources Committee has a small annual budget to pay for markers and they
  • 03:37:57
    I just put the 12 by 16 bronze marker just to give you an idea.
  • 03:38:01
    I mean, the committee didn't really even discuss how big it would be, but I think in that location, they did suggest that it be placed in front of the marker, that would be west of the marker.
  • 03:38:14
    The idea was you would pause there and read it.
  • 03:38:17
    It would definitely be pedestrian-scaled rather than something that you'd see going by an auto, although if you saw it was located there as you drove by,
  • 03:38:26
    It might make you want to park your car and go over there and look at it and see what it says.
  • 03:38:31
    That area used to be triangular shaped park and it was narrowed and the committee thought, well, we know that you don't know exactly what's going to happen in that intersection but if you improve it and there is room to expand that park,
  • 03:38:45
    So there's a little more space to stand there, that would be preferable.
  • 03:38:49
    But I think that as it is now, you would just put it in where the flowers are and there would be room on the sidewalk to stand there and read it as you view the statue.
  • 03:38:58
    So I think that was the general idea.
  • 03:39:00
    I did want to mention that
  • 03:39:03
    Paulina Devereaux is here tonight, who is a co-chair of the committee.
  • 03:39:06
    If you have any questions for the committee's intent, Genevieve Keller was here earlier.
  • 03:39:11
    She's also on the committee.
  • 03:39:13
    Therefore, they recommend erecting a marker with Rosina and Emma George's quote, their names, as the authors, the date, and to be located on the west side of the statue.
  • 03:39:24
    and then I didn't want to read what one committee member said honoring Sacajawea without mentioning any controversy is appropriate.
  • 03:39:33
    We risk dishonoring her as well as others of the expedition and associated with the memorial design sponsorship and installation by inserting our contemporary and often conflicting values into the language.
  • 03:39:46
    So I thought that was important.
  • 03:39:48
    I'd be happy to answer any questions.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:39:53
    Could you just do us a favor and read the last half of that quote?
  • 03:39:56
    Because I think it's very important.
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 03:39:59
    I'm trying to save time.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:40:00
    I know.
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 03:40:04
    I would however, this was from a committee member, I would however like to see us approach in the future the broader topic of how our history is represented figuratively and through our markers and such and pursue some way of raising questions that viewers might want to consider or not as they contemplate the public art of our community.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:40:26
    Thank you.
  • 03:40:27
    Any questions or comments?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 03:40:28
    I was going, I know it's late, but I was going to ask you to do more reading.
  • 03:40:31
    If you'd be so kind to read what's going to be on the plaque.
  • 03:40:35
    I have friends that are blind that listen to the meetings that we'll be interested in hearing.
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 03:40:39
    And I apologize in advance if I pronounce anything wrong, but Sacajawea, this plaque is dedicated to Sacajawea, whose contribution of traditional and cultural knowledge with courage and bravery earned her recognition in the chronicles of American history.
  • 03:40:54
    Sacajawea was a
  • 03:40:56
    Lemmy Shoshone, and that was formerly called Agidica, born in Salmon, Idaho in 1788.
  • 03:41:07
    She was the only female to travel on the long, arduous journey with the Lewis and Clark Expedition, 1805 through 1806.
  • 03:41:15
    Sacagawea served as an ambassador, bridging relations amongst nations.
  • 03:41:20
    Her contribution to the people of today and the future generations can be identified as the symbol of unity and peace for all people.
  • 03:41:29
    And that's signed by Rosina George and Emma George, great great great nieces of Sacagawea.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:41:36
    Thank you.
  • 03:41:38
    What was the rationale, or maybe ask us another way, did the committee ever consider the idea of instead of putting a plaque on the base of the monument, maybe having some sort of a display or a larger plaque on maybe against the wall of the building adjacent to the monument so that people walking on the sidewalk who may not want to cross over that street to read a little plaque could just see
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 03:42:08
    They didn't talk about putting on the building.
  • 03:42:10
    They talked about putting it possibly across the street on the wall across where the housing building is.
  • 03:42:22
    But then they thought, well, people wouldn't connect the two.
  • 03:42:25
    They'd read it and look around and wonder where it was.
  • 03:42:28
    So I think if it was possibly on the, they didn't really discuss that.
  • 03:42:33
    But it's a possibility.
  • 03:42:34
    It is closer to the monument.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:42:37
    I think it would be good to have further to the monument because we relate to the monument otherwise we don't know who will see it in that room.
  • 03:42:50
    I think it is about time to make such corrections.
  • 03:42:55
    We can't change the history but we can explain it better.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 03:43:02
    I just, the only thing I question is what people see it on the monument over there in the center of that triangle.
  • 03:43:08
    That's a, I'm just not sure.
  • 03:43:10
    You know, I notice there's a lot of, because a lot of traffic comes from the Omni Hotel walking up West Main Street to all the restaurants back and forth in the evening.
  • 03:43:19
    I don't know.
  • 03:43:21
    I would kind of like to see it moved over there somewhere where people could see it, but that's just my opinion.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:43:28
    If it's not on the base of the monument, then we might be able to make it a little larger and readable and have some imagery, some more positive images of Sacagawea, or at least a positive image of Sacagawea and have a display that we could mount with this language.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:43:50
    This refers to the statue.
  • 03:43:52
    The statue may move in, I don't know.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 03:43:55
    That's a good point.
  • 03:43:56
    But you know, I don't think anyone, you can only see what the statue is about by getting out of your car and taking a close look at it.
  • 03:44:10
    You might read it, you might know that it's a Lucy Clark statue, you might not even know who's in it, but until you actually
  • 03:44:19
    Pause and walk and approach it.
  • 03:44:21
    I don't think you can really tell one way or the other what's going on with it.
  • 03:44:28
    I think it takes a close look, like any real work of art.
  • 03:44:32
    For that reason, I think having something that's on it, so when you bother to actually take a close look at it, that you can read about it and see it and have a context for that.
  • 03:44:46
    I'd like to see, I don't have a sense of scale of how big would be appropriate.
  • 03:44:53
    This does seem a little small, but I wouldn't mind having the BAR or someone weigh in on if we decided to plaque as appropriate, how it would work, what would, it may not be the BAR, but how would it, how big would be too big?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:45:16
    I agree with Dr. Brown that it would be better to put it right on the base of the statue, so when you lick the statue, once you're on a pedestrian, the size of the proposal will be easily read.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:45:29
    Is that acceptable?
  • 03:45:36
    Can I just leave it on the base and maybe try to make it a little bigger and leave the language as it is?
  • 03:45:46
    I still like the idea if there is a way to integrate a different visual image of Sacajawea on the plaque.
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 03:45:58
    The committee talked about using possibly the image from the coin.
  • 03:46:04
    The thing is, they're all conjecture, you know, but it was just to have a more positive image.
  • 03:46:12
    And I was trying to find it.
  • 03:46:17
    Guy Lopez submitted one, but again, it's conjectural, but the idea is to show a more positive image than someone just kind of crouching.
  • 03:46:26
    So the task force would not be opposed to having some... No, they just, they were a little concerned about just having it conjectural, but, you know, if that's the intent, it's just kind of to show a positive image.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:46:39
    Well, the structure itself is conjectural.
  • 03:46:41
    That's right.
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 03:46:42
    It is.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:46:42
    We're balancing conjecture with conjectures.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:46:45
    Let me make a motion to see if this is a discuss.
  • 03:46:48
    I would like to know that we do describe all the basis of actual
  • 03:46:56
    what is the image of the secondary as you suggested that way we will have at least some feeling for a person and then we will relate to the real statue also.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:47:10
    Is there a second to that motion?
  • 03:47:12
    I'll second.
  • 03:47:13
    Dr. Brown, discussion?
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 03:47:15
    Well, yeah, and I think we certainly have money that we intend from time to time to spend on art.
  • 03:47:20
    I think certainly we could spend
  • 03:47:26
    More than $500 to try to- It would cost more than $500.
  • 03:47:29
    I know, and I think we should spend more than $500.
  • 03:47:31
    I think, you know, I think it's worth blush up to $2,500 or, and then if it turns out there's, you know, there's an argument on why it needs to be more than that, they could come, you know, it could be communicated either to us or to the mayor to do.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:47:48
    Okay, any further discussion?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 03:47:50
    I just think that since the family works so hard in choosing such eloquent words that they have and have an opportunity to take the image that they think would fit the words as well.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:48:04
    That's a good idea.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 03:48:05
    Yeah.
  • 03:48:08
    Okay.
  • 03:48:08
    Thank you.
  • 03:48:09
    Please indicate your vote on the motions.
  • 03:48:13
    Thank you very much.
  • 03:48:13
    Thank you, Ms. Scala.
  • 03:48:16
    Next item on our agenda is a report on the Streetcar Task Force.
  • 03:48:23
    Mr. Gary Oakland.
  • 03:48:38
    And I will note, in case anybody is staying up late to hear the report on quality of service and efficiency study, we are going to move that to our next city council meeting.
  • 03:48:49
    So we're removing that item from our agenda.
  • 03:48:59
    Is this another PowerPoint?
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 03:49:20
    I'm going to arrange that stature just so you can have a bigger discussion about it.
  • 03:49:52
    Mr. Mayor, Members of the Council, in the audience, if you're here, even at the late hour, we're trying to... Bob?
  • 03:50:06
    Is it on?
  • 03:50:08
    It does fall off, I guess.
  • 03:50:13
    Is that better?
  • 03:50:14
    Okay, I can't tell from here.
  • 03:50:17
    All right.
  • 03:50:21
    I'm trying to present briefly the outcome of the committee that you appointed.
  • 03:50:36
    and briefly go through some of the points we want to make and the proposals that are there.
  • 03:50:41
    What I'd really like to do, though, is make a couple observations, I think, or clarifications about a couple of things about this.
  • 03:50:49
    One of them, it's a report, it's been called a feasibility study, but in a way, it's asking you to look at it as a plan that can be looked at over a period of time, rejected, certainly, revised, or
  • 03:51:00
    or whatever you happen to do.
  • 03:51:04
    Another part of that is that even though we discuss streetcar and that sort of thing, it becomes a subject.
  • 03:51:09
    The subject is really not just streetcar, it's a tool, and we're looking at it as something that helps us achieve the thing that we would like to have occur between Downtown University and West Main Street, and it seems to be a very good tool to look at, so we're exploring
  • 03:51:27
    that idea.
  • 03:51:28
    Another thing is looking at is the
  • 03:51:32
    I'm part of the regional transit authority.
  • 03:51:35
    It's a long term kind of issue for all of us.
  • 03:51:37
    It's a very big thing and I think it's important that this be seen as part of it.
  • 03:51:42
    But there is some certain logic to it that there always will be, we hope, in the regional plan of which the downtown university and all that will be part of and we can think that certainly is here.
  • 03:51:54
    One of the reasons for looking at it early on is the potential for federal funding in the future.
  • 03:52:01
    Streetcars are not looked at favorably at the moment, but there's going to be some kind of change that's being looked at in a lot of detail, and I suspect that will change.
  • 03:52:11
    And what the position is that anyone that's going to be very competitive, but anyone that has a plan, and is in line, is going to be better than someone who isn't.
  • 03:52:20
    A longer line would be on the top of the line.
  • 03:52:24
    So there's a reason to do this.
  • 03:52:26
    What are the kinds of why we were doing this?
  • 03:52:29
    Where did this sort of start?
  • 03:52:31
    Well, there were a number of us that were very interested in the idea of a...
  • 03:53:06
    Okay, if I won't touch it on this.
  • 03:53:10
    Really how this started was a group of us were sort of concerned about what happens.
  • 03:53:17
    University, downtown, why West Main Street is the way it is.
  • 03:53:21
    It's congested.
  • 03:53:23
    Is there an opportunity other than what we're doing now is with cars, mostly only and buses.
  • 03:53:28
    We have a great bus system.
  • 03:53:29
    They get tangled up in traffic.
  • 03:53:31
    Is there a solution beyond that for us to look at it?
  • 03:53:35
    I mean, I've been to work elsewhere when you have them.
  • 03:53:38
    We're able to find out that there are
  • 03:53:40
    There's a whole number of communities that are actually beginning to look and use systems like the streetcar that we're going to discuss tonight.
  • 03:53:49
    And they're doing marvelous things, not just solving some of the transportation problems, but also creating better places to live.
  • 03:53:57
    The quality of life issue is really probably one of the key issues.
  • 03:54:00
    So our question was,
  • 03:54:02
    Do we want to look into this further?
  • 03:54:07
    Do we want to really see whether there's possibilities for Charlottesville?
  • 03:54:11
    Charlottesville is small in comparison to these other studies.
  • 03:54:13
    So the key question was, is there a possibility for a street car or something like that within a city our size?
  • 03:54:21
    Well, the only way we can find out that is to ask.
  • 03:54:24
    So we did kind of put together a group with the city's help that met to plan a transit summit and what we did is look across the country and we know who some of these people are to try and get some of the best minds that have looked at this broadly everywhere again to come here for a week, which they did, and give us their opinion about whether we should do something like this or not.
  • 03:54:46
    Because obviously if it doesn't make any sense you don't do it.
  • 03:54:49
    The outcome we have is that yes, we could, and we'll go through that, but don't you look at things like for downtown a bus rapid transit or a light rail system, but you can look at a streetcar, which is a much smaller element, and we'll talk a little bit about that in a moment.
  • 03:55:09
    So that left us with, okay, we could take a look at that, maybe it has some hope for it, but what do we do next?
  • 03:55:17
    and then what we needed to do is to find out in more detail whether or not this could be useful.
  • 03:55:24
    So we needed to get a technical look at it.
  • 03:55:27
    We needed to go see some of the places that have these and see if they make any sense and develop a kind of communication package for doing it and we put in a grant proposal to the Moon Fund.
  • 03:55:40
    We funded that and some of the things that we did.
  • 03:55:44
    Let me see, I need to get here.
  • 03:55:48
    Some of the elements that we've been discussing, the Transit Summit, the ACT program, which is basically a part of this, the technical review that we've done, and the site visits.
  • 03:55:59
    Those are some of the first things that we really did.
  • 03:56:04
    and this is the summit that refers to basically they said we are being threatened by traffic and we should be pursuing these kinds of things and this is strategically important because they do look at us as part of a regional network don't look at it just as a streetcar but look at the entire
  • 03:56:20
    and network as it occurs.
  • 03:56:23
    We did then write in a second order technical work at it.
  • 03:56:26
    Somebody that knows a lot about this was part of the Portland experience to look at this kind of situation and see is it physically viable to do it?
  • 03:56:37
    Can we do it?
  • 03:56:38
    Can we run it from downtown, university, wherever it happens to be?
  • 03:56:43
    And does it physically work?
  • 03:56:45
    and our conclusion was yes, it can, it's got its modest difficulties, it has no fatal flaws to it this is the kind of the thing we looked at and it should be looked at in terms of how to enhance the bus service we have now bearing in mind that it could trigger into a streetcar conversation in the future and also address the idea of an educational process so
  • 03:57:14
    After this kind of technical look at it, we took a group we will recognize some that went to, and there's one or two here, it's the mayor, at the time, to Portland to look at the Portland streetcar, to experience it, meet with people there to find out what they felt about it and how we felt it might.
  • 03:57:32
    Look, we are a small community, so it is different, so we have to look at does it seem to fit, and we had a pretty positive effect with the various people that
  • 03:57:42
    that went on the trip.
  • 03:57:46
    One of the things we did visit Portland, Oregon, which has, there will be only two streetcar systems in the country operating right now, but there are 35 being planned and are underway.
  • 03:57:57
    This is an area important called Jamison Square, and it's an area that is more or less brand new with housing, that sort of thing.
  • 03:58:06
    Pedicated on the streetcar, and I think of this next picture as well, I think it is now,
  • 03:58:10
    It has grown around it.
  • 03:58:15
    The streetcar is a major element to it.
  • 03:58:18
    It's paid for many of the kinds of uses that are there.
  • 03:58:23
    It's encouraged to people that live there with a much, much lower use of automobiles than is typical.
  • 03:58:30
    And then we also visited Tacoma, Washington, which was the other streetcar.
  • 03:58:35
    I had a very nice reception to them.
  • 03:58:38
    We looked at their system.
  • 03:58:39
    This was meeting with the mayor.
  • 03:58:41
    The very greatest took us to lunch, and David's here somewhere where there's, you know, Brown has his key to the city that he received when he was mayor there, made out of glass, which was interesting because they are a glass center of the country.
  • 03:58:55
    So some of these systems, and what are they that we should be looking at?
  • 03:58:58
    And we sort of undertook an evaluation of what makes sense.
  • 03:59:02
    It's pretty straightforward.
  • 03:59:03
    One is what we have now.
  • 03:59:05
    We've got a bus system.
  • 03:59:06
    It's a good bus system.
  • 03:59:08
    It works well within it.
  • 03:59:09
    So what are the other kinds of systems that might work in a city like Charlottesville?
  • 03:59:14
    We should look at bus rapid transit.
  • 03:59:16
    Bus rapid transit is basically an upgraded version of a
  • 03:59:21
    of an express bus.
  • 03:59:23
    It goes further apart.
  • 03:59:26
    It goes more rapid.
  • 03:59:27
    It is primarily, in a nutshell, it is a commuter train.
  • 03:59:31
    A commuter train is not the same as downtown.
  • 03:59:34
    The other, of course, main one is a light rail.
  • 03:59:38
    A light rail is a much heavier duty travel, very comfortable, does all the kinds of bells and whistles that you have.
  • 03:59:44
    It, too, is primarily a commuter line.
  • 03:59:47
    It likes its distance, its failure, it goes fast, so great for doing that.
  • 03:59:52
    Not particularly so good for working locally.
  • 03:59:55
    The other one is the streetcar, which we're discussing here.
  • 03:59:58
    It is the closest thing to an establishment of a bus, a streetcar.
  • 04:00:02
    It is a rail-based thing, it's powered with overheads, which I'm sure some
  • 04:00:08
    I don't like it.
  • 04:00:08
    It's a very, very energy-efficient kind of thing that runs on tracks.
  • 04:00:12
    That's why it does that.
  • 04:00:15
    Its pollution sources are remote, whatever they are, but there's none there.
  • 04:00:20
    They're very quiet, and you can live with them.
  • 04:00:22
    So the two systems are really quick.
  • 04:00:25
    all quite good in the system.
  • 04:00:28
    And I think in the future if we want to look at this and it's a solution to the overhead wire kind of thing this is a new system that's in Bordeaux, France which doesn't have overhead wires has a system that runs with its power underneath it which is activated when the train is over it so it's very safe all the time and so technology keeps changing so this can be nice and these things you'll see lots of them in Europe they do this simple thing and you can because there's nothing you put grass in between them if you want them in the park they can redo it.
  • 04:00:55
    So they can be very easy.
  • 04:00:58
    I just want to point out that the scale of things when it comes to a community, how big it is and what it is.
  • 04:01:03
    Portland has a really great light rail system, which is bigger.
  • 04:01:05
    A streetcar is about two-thirds the size of a light rail system.
  • 04:01:09
    The size, weight, and length is small.
  • 04:01:11
    They liked it because light rail was good, but it's sort of like a train in town as opposed to a streetcar, so it's much smaller.
  • 04:01:19
    So that was just sort of fun.
  • 04:01:21
    In a nutshell, I'm looking at the various kinds of things.
  • 04:01:24
    Again, I won't go into the whole kinds of things.
  • 04:01:27
    We are here.
  • 04:01:28
    This is the different scales of cities, large scales, and these are the kinds of transit systems in here.
  • 04:01:35
    In a nutshell, we can do certain kinds of things which are buses, express buses, and streetcar.
  • 04:01:41
    Light rail we shouldn't do, although it could happen if we have heavy rail trains, we could do it if it's by our system, because that's our bread and butter for what a city our size can do.
  • 04:01:53
    Larger cities can do more, others less.
  • 04:01:57
    So that gets a parameter on what size a system one can do, and then you can sort of look at what you want it to do.
  • 04:02:03
    This is essentially what a light rail system would do.
  • 04:02:08
    It has large stops in between.
  • 04:02:11
    It sometimes has activity around the various stops, but it doesn't affect much in between.
  • 04:02:16
    A circulator, which we're talking about, is a downtown thing where things are maybe two or three blocks.
  • 04:02:21
    Their shared influence is closer.
  • 04:02:22
    You may have a linear kind of a, this is what Main Street is and what the city and the university are in terms of how they
  • 04:02:29
    how they actually work.
  • 04:02:31
    So then just a quick look at the systems itself.
  • 04:02:37
    This is Portland Streetcar which is on this map you can see is the blue line.
  • 04:02:41
    It's about 4 miles long, a pair of loops that goes back and forth anchored at one end by Portland State University and the other by a major hospital and it runs in the street.
  • 04:02:53
    It's very popular.
  • 04:02:54
    You see, if we're street running, it runs with the traffic.
  • 04:02:57
    These are wider streets than we have, and they have a paired runway.
  • 04:03:00
    But they do go down the middle, down the side of the street, I should say.
  • 04:03:04
    And they're partially dedicated in the sense that cars know they're not supposed to be there when the train is there, and that seems to work somehow.
  • 04:03:11
    But it does share traffic with others, if something went too far.
  • 04:03:16
    and what it does is it has a streetcar line and then it has stops that bulge out and these are raised so that you can directly walk onto them with no particular problems.
  • 04:03:29
    This is probably one of my favorite ones.
  • 04:03:33
    This is a cafe and a street serving this thing sitting right next to a streetcar.
  • 04:03:39
    The streetcar is very quiet, if you sit next to it, try that on the bus.
  • 04:03:43
    It wouldn't really do it.
  • 04:03:44
    I mean, it's not here to do that.
  • 04:03:46
    So it's kind of a popular sort of thing to do.
  • 04:03:49
    There are some things that we know about of having early wings about when schedules and rivals and things like that are.
  • 04:03:58
    It also does things that make handicapped access extremely quick and easy, which it isn't now.
  • 04:04:05
    and so often on paid or on board ticketing and that sort of thing and it's easy to construct in the sense of a train.
  • 04:04:14
    The track can be put down for this industry and remember it's one block every two weeks you can build it so it can really be done quickly and maintain traffic so it has to do because it has a very shallow slab kind of condition.
  • 04:04:31
    And this is a Tacoma, which is very similar in size to ours.
  • 04:04:34
    It's a mile and a half long.
  • 04:04:36
    It's in part as a transit dome center.
  • 04:04:39
    It comes back and has several key spots along it.
  • 04:04:42
    That's sort of a big picture of it.
  • 04:04:47
    Quite similar, it runs in the middle of the track.
  • 04:04:50
    Some of it's dedicated lanes, some of it's shared.
  • 04:04:53
    One major source of water here at all is what can this kind of thing do to help improve community and quality of life.
  • 04:05:02
    This is called transit oriented development.
  • 04:05:04
    Slightly higher density, much more mixed use, major pedestrian amenities, public spaces,
  • 04:05:11
    and access to other modes, etc.
  • 04:05:14
    This is the kind of thing that this can really do.
  • 04:05:17
    There's plenty of examples in becoming success stories in other communities of how a streetcar can actually do this, and it's doing it in Portland and others.
  • 04:05:26
    Many are looking at it.
  • 04:05:28
    So a couple of case studies I'm going to go through quickly.
  • 04:05:33
    This is Portland.
  • 04:05:34
    This is the whole development area that is here.
  • 04:05:37
    You can see it has part of the streetcar line.
  • 04:05:38
    The streetcar line is there because the business community wanted it and asked for it and actually funded it for the most part.
  • 04:05:48
    So some of the elements in it is they've protected some of the resources that are there and mixed uses of buildings.
  • 04:05:54
    Probably one of the most interesting ones is Pearl Court.
  • 04:05:56
    This is low-income housing right in the middle of large areas of Congress.
  • 04:06:01
    So it's really a mixed-use thing that's been attractive for both.
  • 04:06:06
    This happened in as much activity in terms of the streetcar loss, people living there, the number, it's extreme.
  • 04:06:15
    I believe that the, if I'm not right there, what is it, 32 billion dollars of development approval in areas like this in Portland based on
  • 04:06:26
    Pushing, not that we want that here.
  • 04:06:28
    Again, Tacoma has a center that brings not only a streetcar, it's buses, but it's commuter rail thing all together in one area that is revitalizing that particular area.
  • 04:06:40
    It's also connected to parking and a bus system, all related to the, this is just some pictures of it, what it looks like.
  • 04:06:47
    It's stationed.
  • 04:06:50
    and by the way, the interesting one is that we're a university community and this is one.
  • 04:06:55
    Portland State University is a, is Portland's premier
  • 04:07:02
    University, and it has been very supportive of a transit system on the idea of the streetcar.
  • 04:07:09
    In fact, when it was building this building, the streetcar was being proposed, the streetcar goes right through the building and links key kinds of things.
  • 04:07:19
    Located at the corner of what's so much larger campus,
  • 04:07:22
    and you can see in this instance of how the streetcar comes here as a major gateway lots of activity and that sort of thing and as it moves.
  • 04:07:30
    So it's a key part of the, this is a picture of it actually in between the two buildings that are there now as it travels through.
  • 04:07:39
    So for us,
  • 04:07:41
    We looked at the feasibility of locations for this with the help of the transit planner that we were talking about.
  • 04:07:50
    So we looked at, in this map, this is very rough, but you can see at this end of it is the transit center, this is the intersection with JPA, this is the intersection with Emma Street, and University.
  • 04:08:03
    The route being talked about is that one.
  • 04:08:06
    Primarily, with the idea and the discussion, the newspaper would be nice for it to go to.
  • 04:08:12
    to Barracks Road, which it would.
  • 04:08:15
    But I think, in fact, on the committee's view that we were thinking that it needs to be a catalyst by the pilot that says, okay, if we can do this, it can do this, if people like it, it wants to go, fine.
  • 04:08:27
    And we want to examine that kind of thing if we can work with the university, and if it can work fine, that's good too.
  • 04:08:34
    And that would be a third step, but don't limit that.
  • 04:08:37
    So I think the article in the publisher of the day was good but it kind of looked at that was the bottom line or our bottom line is the 1.3 mile I think in the committee to have that looked at.
  • 04:08:49
    I won't go through, there's some certain different ways, you look at, there's configurations for where you work that they can be revised, how it works, that's got to be done in the next phase of it, but there was really no reason that there aren't ways to work out some of those kinds of things.
  • 04:09:07
    Then, just in terms of looking at the intersection, which is the life where we're having a long discussion about that with the Sacajawea area,
  • 04:09:19
    and we did some kind of test to say here's sort of the density of what's there now the buildings in the street
  • 04:09:26
    how some infill can actually develop that kind of thing using the proximity of a streetcar to embellish that and it can then show how that can actually infiltrate.
  • 04:09:39
    And then just giving that as a three dimensional thing, that diagram right there really has the kind of density that supports transit.
  • 04:09:46
    So we're really not talking about the idea that you've got to have nine or 20 story buildings on it.
  • 04:09:50
    That's really not true.
  • 04:09:52
    Three, four, five support something like a streetcar itself.
  • 04:09:57
    So on the task force itself, we'll do a quick summary of some of the things that we talked about.
  • 04:10:04
    The recommendations divided themselves into basically two fairly large things, which is engineering and actually then the planning and design.
  • 04:10:13
    of something like that.
  • 04:10:15
    Some of the steps that have to be taken certainly is getting the goals together, really make sure this thing fits within the regional context of things and make an emphasis on how does it do it in the green sense.
  • 04:10:27
    Is it a sustainable thing compared to other choices?
  • 04:10:30
    What does it do as an environmental choice compared to other things?
  • 04:10:34
    But then the key elements, which I won't go into in any detail, the inherent components, the route planning, finding out where the barriers are, finding out where the route should go, what the phasing may be, and considering how the upgrades of existing transit kinds of things can fit that.
  • 04:10:51
    Then there's the technical things that need to be done.
  • 04:10:54
    We need to figure out the street sections, should it be in the center, on the side, in the middle, where should it go, how does it configure other things, how does it then
  • 04:11:02
    dealing in fact with utilities.
  • 04:11:07
    Then of course the big one and that kind of thing were the shortest words with the longest biggest impact is really the cost.
  • 04:11:13
    What does it take to do this?
  • 04:11:17
    Both in capital to build them and in operating.
  • 04:11:21
    But in terms of capital, there's several ways to do it.
  • 04:11:24
    One is, as we talked about earlier, the federal government can actually have us a program, and hopefully the LP can, and that could trigger it in.
  • 04:11:32
    That's a bit problematic.
  • 04:11:34
    The other is kind of a local thing where we do it ourselves, find a way to do it, work all the tools we've got to report for it, all kinds of techniques that can be done, but there needs to be a lot of work.
  • 04:11:46
    But it's kind of one example, I think, that's worth looking at.
  • 04:11:50
    and the other ways to do it was again how Portland did this more or less themselves and what they did is, and the important point is that there's not one silver bullet that tells you how to do it there, and not that we would do it, but what they did is they upgraded up the parking rates in all their parking garages and bonded the sum of it and that paid for half the capital quality it also used dramatically a local improvement district
  • 04:12:17
    and another one that we can do if we want is on the tax increment financing.
  • 04:12:23
    These are key pieces of theirs plus a lot of others.
  • 04:12:26
    So this is sort of the do it yourself model, do it local.
  • 04:12:31
    The other one would be Portland which was there because it was part of a regional
  • 04:12:36
    three billion dollar bond issue that was passed and they were the first recipient of the part of it so that built them so theirs came free and so on because there's all kinds of hybrids of ways of doing that in between
  • 04:12:52
    So then in terms of the other side of that equation would be the development analysis.
  • 04:12:56
    It's really let's find out what's there, and a lot of this has been done.
  • 04:13:00
    It's really a matter of pulling it together.
  • 04:13:02
    What's the existing development that's there?
  • 04:13:04
    Do we have a strong enough vision?
  • 04:13:07
    We have lots of plans, lots of ideas.
  • 04:13:08
    Can they put together a vision that actually can guide this thing?
  • 04:13:13
    What is a potential build-out because of that vision along the routes that we're talking about there?
  • 04:13:19
    What are the parking and planning strategies that are there?
  • 04:13:24
    And very importantly, what could be the tax contribution from the build-out of these kinds of things that could go into either capital or operating kinds of things?
  • 04:13:31
    We need to find out the ridership existing, what it is now, potential, and how it could be projected based on build-out.
  • 04:13:39
    Then finally,
  • 04:13:42
    Do we have to do anything organizationally in terms of ordinances?
  • 04:13:45
    Should there be changes to the ordinance that facilitates streetcar locations, for instance?
  • 04:13:50
    And how should it be operated ultimately?
  • 04:13:52
    Is it CTS as an organization?
  • 04:13:53
    How does that actually happen?
  • 04:13:57
    So I think your conclusion was, you know, or agree that the city should retain the necessary consultants that need to do this stuff.
  • 04:14:07
    This is stuff people locally can do, some to do, but you need the experts to do it pointedly to the things that we need.
  • 04:14:16
    This could mean, the city does nothing and it hires a bunch of consultants, which is that model.
  • 04:14:24
    You're funding the entire thing by
  • 04:14:28
    by the city.
  • 04:14:30
    The city can work out city and consultant collaboration teams to help put this together.
  • 04:14:35
    And the city and private funding ranges certainly can be made public-private partnerships.
  • 04:14:41
    And also there's some real interest in this last one in terms of the potential for matching situations.
  • 04:14:50
    If the city were to match part, you can get a match for the other part for half of what's being
  • 04:14:55
    and talked about in the 200 to 300 dollar, 1000 dollar figure over a period of time.
  • 04:15:02
    So that's sort of where we are in that and in recommending that and that's of course you always look backward because we do have the old street car at one time, here it is in front of the rotunda and Todd we need to thank for all of his help on this, excuse me,
  • 04:15:21
    get a simulation that says, oh here, so we just transferred the Portland car and stuck it in front of the West Main Street to take a look at it.
  • 04:15:29
    So that's, I think, the gist of it.
  • 04:15:32
    I know that Frank Stone is here, and he would like to say a word if you may, to some of the things that are happening.
  • 04:15:40
    He's been part of the committee, supporting it and looking at it, and he's also a developer.
  • 04:15:44
    He has a sense of the needs for what this can actually do.
  • 04:15:48
    Well, beyond my capability,
• • SPEAKER_13
  • 04:16:17
    My comments are relatively brief.
  • 04:16:23
    My name is Frank Stoner, I live at 240 Chestnut Oak Lane in the county but I have property interests in the city and one of those property interests in fact is on West Main Street.
  • 04:16:34
    And I've been talking to Gary for a number of years about West Main Street and the issues on West Main Street
  • 04:16:41
    and tonight I'm really here to ask you to give serious consideration to the funding of the additional work that needs to be done to establish the financial and engineering viability of this project.
  • 04:16:56
    In addition to that, I would go one step further to say that I think the West Main Street corridor needs a parking study as well because I think that's integral to the overall concept.
  • 04:17:10
    I think there are, I can't speak for other property owners on West Main Street or other members of the development community, I can tell you that
  • 04:17:21
    I think if the city will take a leadership role in funding this, I think private funds will come along.
  • 04:17:30
    and whether it's matching, I'm less certain about how the financial structure should work but the good news is I did some quick math tonight and while you were talking about renovating the mall I figured out that for less than half the cost of the special order bricks that you think you need for the mall you could fund this entire study
  • 04:17:53
    and so I encourage you to think about that.
  • 04:17:55
    There's 135,000 square feet of brick on the mall and I gather the additional cost is about $4 a square foot so there's $520,000 worth of cost there that apparently everybody supports.
  • 04:18:08
    I would submit to you that West Main Street is a very fragile corridor.
  • 04:18:13
    Progress has been made over the last 20 years, but it's been intermittent, it's been at a level that is far below expectations in terms of mixed use, urban density, and I think a street car has demonstrated in the cities it has been built in
  • 04:18:31
    It's been demonstrated to be a huge catalyst for private investment and development.
  • 04:18:36
    And for that reason I think it's worth the $200,000 investment to study it.
  • 04:18:46
    Let's see, I guess lastly, I would submit to you that the study is really, should not be about finding the most affordable transit solution for our community.
  • 04:19:02
    The streetcar is more than efficient transportation, it's really a symbol of who and what we want to be.
  • 04:19:11
    and I think Charlottesville is progressive in so many ways that I'd hate to see us pass the opportunity to demonstrate to both our own community, those outside the community and those who come visit our community that we are progressive from a transit standpoint and progressive from an environmental standpoint.
  • 04:19:35
    So I hope you'll give it serious consideration.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 04:19:40
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_13
  • 04:20:14
    Questions?
  • 04:20:14
    Comments?
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 04:20:20
    Well, I'll go ahead and start off.
  • 04:20:21
    I had the opportunity to sit on the task force and I know I talked with Mayor Norris last week and I guess we talked at the time about perhaps linking this to the whole idea of a regional transit study.
  • 04:20:46
    I guess after talking to some people I'm somewhat, my mind is somewhat changed and maybe we should go ahead with the thought in mind and if we want to be prepared in the event that the feds release some money to do this we would probably be in a better position I guess at least that's what I'm hearing if we already have the study done we can move away quickly where if we have not done that study
  • 04:21:15
    we wouldn't be in the best position to compete.
  • 04:21:20
    And I guess the other thing that intrigues me is the possibility of maybe some private-public partnership to help fund this and maybe the city would fund this perhaps on a 50-50 basis if some money could be raised somewhere to do this.
  • 04:21:40
    I would be supportive, I guess, of doing that, which kind of changes what my thoughts were earlier in the week, earlier last week, I guess, I should say.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:21:53
    I had a question from Mr. O'Connor about this 1.3 miles, what kind of cost are you talking about in general?
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:22:02
    I'm sorry, what did you say?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:22:03
    $1.3 a mile, the first phase.
  • 04:22:06
    What kind of ballpark figures are you talking about?
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:22:09
    Well, the ranges that we're looking at in terms of cost go from $3 a mile to $70 a mile.
  • 04:22:14
    But I think we've been using a figure of somewhere in Portland because of the industry is somewhere between probably 18, I'm not sure, 18 to 20, I think we've been rounding out average, so it's like 18 to 20 million a mile, so it'd be a little over
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:22:29
    So, what's 30 million?
  • 04:22:32
    29.
  • 04:22:32
    So, what's 30 million for 1.3 miles?
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:22:37
    Well, it would be 22 million, 23, whatever, 1.3 times 22 miles at this hour a night.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:22:44
    Well, I just want to follow up with Mr. Taliaferro, who was on the task force, and he knows more about it than I do.
  • 04:22:50
    I've been thinking about just to give you a perspective.
  • 04:22:55
    Interchange is very quick to operate
  • 04:22:58
    and broadcast is 30 million dollars.
  • 04:23:01
    So that drives you to have whole first phase one of streetcar.
  • 04:23:06
    So from that perspective, it was really a series about transit and the, not only transit but I see it as a more possibility for catties for grandchildren of a space street and especially, now I understand that you get up to 4 to 5 percent, 5 times the investment
  • 04:23:26
    in taxes over the years.
  • 04:23:30
    So I want to bring that perspective for you to think about.
  • 04:23:34
    We have talked about good transit systems and good, radically clear transit systems, and I think this will meet those requirements.
  • 04:23:44
    And I also agree with Mr. Taliaferro that we should, in the next phase, put on a matching basis if we can find private partners.
  • 04:23:53
    And my understanding is that
  • 04:23:55
    There are partners willing to match our commitment if you are willing to make some commitment.
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:24:03
    I'd like to add just, you can also throw the western bypass in at 70 million a mile, and the Hillsdale Drive thing is 30 million per mile, so anyway, they're bringing cars in, they're necessary, but
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 04:24:18
    The cost per mile, say in Portland, Oregon, which was $11.5 million per mile, those are 2001 figures.
  • 04:24:28
    Are they adjusted at all for the... No, those are old figures.
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:24:31
    That's why they've been adjusted.
  • 04:24:33
    There, what, that's 15, 12 years old, 10 years old, I guess, on the fighting budget.
  • 04:24:41
    About 15, let's say.
  • 04:24:43
    And I do want to talk about one thing that you discussed in the paper I was talking about, that per mile figure, that per mile figure includes the track, and includes the cars, and includes the maintenance facilities, all of those things, that's part of that kind of figure.
  • 04:24:57
    So other than operating costs, it covers most of the cost of it.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:25:00
    Any other comments?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 04:25:16
    I have a question.
  • 04:25:19
    There was a comment made in the earlier part in the first man is by the public.
  • 04:25:26
    It seemed like that was a couple of days ago now.
  • 04:25:28
    But the question, the concern came up whether or not you've learned from other cities whether or not this is bike friendly.
  • 04:25:35
    And you did talk about the overhead lines.
  • 04:25:38
    Can you explore that a little more as well?
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:25:44
    The bicycle thing, sure, I think it raises some issues.
  • 04:25:48
    You have to still do that.
  • 04:25:51
    One of the things that we did find in some areas that are looking at it that one thing this does, which a lot of people in cars don't like, once you put the transit in and you do other things, it slows traffic.
  • 04:26:01
    And once it slows it down enough, there are some people in the bicycle community that says, I can then go with traffic.
  • 04:26:06
    Traffic is going the same 20 miles an hour with me.
  • 04:26:08
    That works all right.
  • 04:26:09
    Some disagree with that, so I don't know what
  • 04:26:11
    on what the answer to it is.
  • 04:26:14
    The easy answer for the overhead wires thing was we can call up Bordeaux and see if they've sentenced their system over here, the one you saw on the slide, but no overhead wires.
  • 04:26:23
    but also I wanted to pass out, when we did visit Portland and we didn't really talk about it though, we had wires and when we did come back a lot of people did not find them particularly interesting and part of the reason I think that is true is that we always think of overhead wires around here, they usually look like logs, you know, the trees, these things are part of the street furniture, very thin, they're very light and you'll find them particularly offensive in certain parts of
  • 04:26:51
    of Portland are very, very historic in the sense of what's there.
  • 04:26:56
    So it's a perception kind of thing.
  • 04:26:59
    I think it sounds worse when you talk about it than you experience the place with it.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 04:27:09
    Well, I had the privilege of traveling with Mr. Oakland to Portland and kind of seeing him in a world group.
  • 04:27:17
    The issue with wires, I don't think anyone notices wires.
  • 04:27:20
    I think they kind of blend into the background.
  • 04:27:22
    I don't think that visual aesthetic is a particularly significant issue.
  • 04:27:27
    And I think, and I also believe it does
  • 04:27:33
    A lot of people ride a streetcar and it certainly does appear to have a track record of stimulating development.
  • 04:27:40
    I definitely agree with Mr. Stoner that on West Main Street, the streetcar by itself is not all we need to do.
  • 04:27:49
    That we would also need to invest in parking, you know, because I think that's, you know, if you really want to make that a dense
  • 04:27:59
    mixed use area, you'd have to have a place for people who have cars who aren't on West Main Street where they can put them.
  • 04:28:10
    The problem I have is just a cost.
  • 04:28:15
    The places that have done them had funding sources we don't have.
  • 04:28:20
    I think that Portland's big.
  • 04:28:25
    The reason they were able to pay for half of it by raising their parking fees is because they have a lot of parking spaces.
  • 04:28:32
    They have a big downtown.
  • 04:28:34
    It's an urban area.
  • 04:28:37
    So to me the issue is how much is it worth to invest in something that we may never be able to afford and they may not ever be a funding stream for that I don't believe I have trouble imagining us paying for this ourselves so I do agree with that if we're doing this we're doing it in order to position ourselves
  • 04:28:57
    for a future where there is a federal funding stream and conversations I've had just with people who seem to know more about these things than I have is that there are other areas with more people and more density that are more likely to be at the front of a list than a city of 40,000 or a community of 100,000.
  • 04:29:18
    you know there's other places where you can move more people and get more cars off-road so you know I don't find myself tremendously attracted to investing a couple hundred thousand dollars in something where I you know I just have concerns that we're not gonna head in that direction
  • 04:29:36
    Also, I don't think this study addressed what happens on the corner.
  • 04:29:43
    I think that's a very tight fit and I think that a streetcar that just goes to the intersection of JPA and Main Street
  • 04:29:56
    I'm not sure where that gets you.
  • 04:29:57
    I think it needs to be able to expand and go past University Corner and I'm not sure how that works.
  • 04:30:03
    You know, you've got a wall on one side, you've got a sidewalk on the other side.
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:30:07
    Well, yeah, I'd like to address that.
  • 04:30:09
    Just read one of the things that the study grant asked.
  • 04:30:11
    We asked some of the experts out there, can we deal with this university without ruining the lawn in front of the humanitarian ground and the walls?
  • 04:30:18
    And they said, yeah, there's ways
  • 04:30:19
    There's ways to do that.
  • 04:30:20
    The bridge is probably more critical than the other.
  • 04:30:23
    And their feeling was, in both instances, that actually with some timing of lights, et cetera, that the streamcards could be double wrecked and go in traffic for that couple blocks.
  • 04:30:34
    But we won't know that until we ask to try.
  • 04:30:36
    And that's what this is asking.
  • 04:30:38
    I know it's tough.
  • 04:30:38
    It's got those two elements to it.
  • 04:30:40
    But it's also the most critical place to go.
  • 04:30:42
    You're absolutely correct.
  • 04:30:43
    And sooner or later, it needs to do that.
  • 04:30:45
    The other place is very appealing and the university has been interested in it and talked about it.
  • 04:30:50
    They would like it to go, or I can't remember, to agree that they are interested in the idea that it actually goes down to the intersection of Barracks Road because of the yard center going there and the parking garage will look at it and tying into that and tying into downtown was very appealing to them.
  • 04:31:12
    So it still hurts that we're going to be amateurs trying all this out and it raises some questions.
  • 04:31:19
    But that's what's close to the theme of this is trying to find out what will happen to them.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 04:31:28
    Look, I had a hard time visualizing this because my idea of a street car just comes from that old rice rowing commercial.
  • 04:31:38
    You saw the guy in the streetcar in San Francisco.
  • 04:31:42
    So to have that vision and then apply it to the city of Charlottesville, it seems kind of abstract to me.
  • 04:31:51
    However, I do believe that this needs to be a part of the entire Regional Transit Study
  • 04:31:58
    and that by exploring this, I want it to be explored in terms of a larger system to include where actually people go.
  • 04:32:05
    What would this look like if we went to PVCC or up to Pantops or further down 29th?
  • 04:32:10
    Even if you're going to go up Main Street, can you continue down Ivy Road to the North Ridge so you can actually connect the hospital to the North Ridge Clinic so there's some connection to where people go?
  • 04:32:25
    In terms of
  • 04:32:27
    the potential funding in order to maybe get some federal funding with the regional transit authority.
  • 04:32:35
    We have to be in place for all that to come into play as well.
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:32:43
    I don't think so.
  • 04:32:48
    There are plenty of people doing that now without, there aren't that many transportation authorities as you all know from around there
  • 04:32:56
    are good models.
  • 04:32:57
    I think it's certainly going to help if you have a broader picture.
  • 04:33:01
    But I think what we were talking about in the streetcar, and I think we were thinking, yes indeed, it would do all those things.
  • 04:33:06
    Ultimately, you would like it to go out to 64 in any sections and intersect people and go to PBC and do all of them.
  • 04:33:12
    It could do all of them.
  • 04:33:13
    It's a wonderful thing.
  • 04:33:14
    It may not actually be a streetcar.
  • 04:33:16
    It might be a BRT, I think 29.
  • 04:33:18
    Those are all legitimate things.
  • 04:33:20
    It could work on how it goes and what it does or something else, but I think we finally knew that the streetcar was probably the best fit when it got to the downtown from the university to there.
  • 04:33:31
    That's up for grabs, but that's certainly the words we got from people who know a heck of a lot more about it than we do.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 04:33:37
    Because I wanted to expand the image beyond the, in addition to but beyond the hopeful development of West Maine because I think that's a separate issue in and of itself in developing that area to me.
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:33:50
    I think that's what the regional transit authority has been, that's one of its jobs, will be to create that kind of vision for us all.
  • 04:33:56
    The region and we should see this as just a piece of it.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:33:59
    So how does it then make sense if we are pursuing a study of transit technology, funding, feasibility, routes, etc., for the region as a whole, or at least the urban area as a whole?
  • 04:34:16
    How does it make sense to not weave this study and this conversation into this broader study, given that we're also studying feasibility, financing, routes, technology for the streetcar?
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:34:32
    I'll do what you might think of as time.
  • 04:34:34
    You can do it faster.
  • 04:34:35
    Now are you better prepared to do it?
  • 04:34:39
    I just often don't see what this would produce that wouldn't fit a regional transit authority plan for this.
  • 04:34:46
    I can't imagine it working, not having a logical connection for downtown university as part of our region.
  • 04:34:53
    And there seem to be a limited number of choices.
  • 04:34:55
    I think once you get beyond that, then all those questions are wide open.
  • 04:34:59
    The idea of doing a catalyst or pilot project for that seems to make some sense.
  • 04:35:06
    You could certainly put it off to a point like that.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:35:10
    I'm not necessarily talking about delaying, I'm just talking about trying to weave them together.
  • 04:35:14
    For instance, if we're going to be looking at a bus rapid transit system, which there's been a lot of talk about, from 29 North into town, why then would somebody, why would we want a system that has bus rapid transit from 29 North down to Barriss Road and then expect somebody to hop off the BRT and hop onto a streetcar?
  • 04:35:32
    Why not just run a BRT all the way along?
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:35:35
    Well, because of the BRT system isn't really very
  • 04:35:39
    cost effective in a street like ours, and they're big, it's a bus.
  • 04:35:43
    And then it's redesigned and paid for to stop every mile, every one mile.
  • 04:35:49
    And so it's kind of a long, that doesn't mean ultimately you couldn't do that, but there are certainly other compelling reasons because of the efficiency of a streetcar compared to any kind of rubber tire thing that turns any kind of thing is huge.
  • 04:36:05
    You know, if you're really talking about a green,
  • 04:36:09
    The solution, a BRT is still a bus.
  • 04:36:12
    It can be quieter.
  • 04:36:13
    In fact, one of the things that we had heard that if you did all the bells and whistles for some of these BRT things, they would cost the same as a streetcar.
  • 04:36:21
    So it's a qualitative issue that goes with it.
  • 04:36:25
    I think you could put up a belief that the regional transit authority is going to be a way down the way, and I'm not sure this could be a help, be an incentive.
  • 04:36:34
    This is what we're doing.
  • 04:36:36
    It's got to start somewhere.
  • 04:36:38
    As they say, any no transit system is born whole.
  • 04:36:41
    It comes by starch.
  • 04:36:41
    I'm an advocate of a catalyst project.
  • 04:36:44
    You go in and fit something in there and see what happens.
  • 04:36:46
    I think every system that I've known has always done a piece of it.
  • 04:36:49
    And it's very interesting.
  • 04:36:50
    There's been lots and in every instance there's always been a tremendous reaction against it before it's done.
  • 04:36:56
    And it sounds like them all here.
  • 04:36:58
    There was an incredible reaction being built against it, now trying to get rid of it.
  • 04:37:01
    And that would be the case certainly in Portland, certainly in Tacoma.
  • 04:37:04
    In fact, I think one of the things that we sense when we're out there is the immense pride people had in that as part of their community.
  • 04:37:11
    We knew it and that was extremely important to them.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:37:15
    Well, I would like to suggest that we ask our staff to come back, because we don't have anything to support tonight or concrete to respond to, but ask our staff to come back with a proposal that would meet the goals that you've spelled out here in terms of the next steps for the streetcar feasibility study that would
  • 04:37:37
    make a clear connection to the work of the Regional Transit Authority so that we're not working across purposes and that demonstrate what kind of matching support, financial support that we can generate from the private sector
  • 04:37:53
    to leverage the city dollars and then give us something concrete that we can respond to.
  • 04:38:00
    Is that, I don't know, Mr. O'Connell or Mr. Watterson?
  • 04:38:04
    Is that something you can come back to us with, if that's Council's pleasure?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:38:08
    I think you would be right to say that maybe we can wait until the meeting.
  • 04:38:13
    but I would hope that it will not be delayed to the point that it will be just getting to bureaucracy in that figure.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:38:20
    I think it can be done next meeting.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:38:21
    Yes, I hope it can be done.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 04:38:23
    No, we've got to have it done on Tuesday so that it's impossible.
  • 04:38:27
    I'm saying we just need a proposal.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:38:32
    We don't have anything in writing we can respond to or vote on.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 04:38:36
    Unless that all exists, I mean... You have a scope of work of a...
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 04:38:40
    There needs to be a scope of work coming from that.
  • 04:38:42
    What do you want to... We have an outline for one.
  • 04:38:46
    All it needs to be is have the...
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:38:48
    In the near future.
  • 04:38:50
    What are you going to share with the staff?
  • 04:38:54
    I would be very supportive of a male city
  • 04:38:56
    Matching up to $100,000 for 50% of the cost of the study.
  • 04:39:02
    I hope you can give some data on that.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:39:05
    The other question is where the money will come from out of the city budgets.
  • 04:39:11
    It doesn't have to be for the next meeting necessarily, but I agree that we don't want to delay it indefinitely.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:39:17
    Maybe meeting after the meeting.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 04:39:20
    I guess I'm just sitting here trying to think of the different elements.
  • 04:39:28
    If we're not having a discussion until, it sounds like, the end of the summer about a regional transit authority, how would we weave that into this discussion?
  • 04:39:37
    I'm not meaning to make this more complicated because clearly there's already some challenges to try to weave these things together.
• • SPEAKER_24
  • 04:40:03
    I guess I would let you know if you're not aware of it that the
  • 04:40:08
    MPO is trying to schedule a joint city-county work session for late July.
  • 04:40:13
    That would be an opportunity to speak about the strategy for working with the state legislature on funding mechanisms and authorizing a regional transit organization.
  • 04:40:26
    There will also be, I think, a progress report on the regional transit study.
  • 04:40:31
    I guess what I would suggest is that the way things are going right now, the regional transit study will actually be in the lead relative to any kind of streetcar study.
  • 04:40:43
    that study is going to be speaking about things like conditions of corridors and the appropriateness of different types of transit services and corridors who already know enough to know that this West Main Corridor is one that having a higher order of transit solution is appropriate and streetcar would fit amongst several possible solutions to do that so
  • 04:41:12
    I don't think that what you're going to be receiving in terms of a regional transit study
  • 04:41:18
    can fully incorporate nor is it intended to talk about mode types.
  • 04:41:24
    So I think it will be a platform from which you can then make sure that any kind of streetcar study you may underwrite fits with it.
  • 04:41:35
    I don't think there's going to be any compatibility issues in that regard because, again, the regional study is going to be done first.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:41:47
    I think that we could do the study and still fit in the regional context but the process has to be decided sometime and at least trolley would not be good for PVCC because of the different scale of things.
  • 04:42:05
    This has more stops.
  • 04:42:07
    The maximum amount I can think of this is from downtown to Freshens Square or Berks Road.
  • 04:42:13
    This is all I can think of.
• • SPEAKER_24
  • 04:42:16
    I guess something that I would underline that Gary said is that one of the things that's going on in the West Main Corridor is there is a need to look at development and the streetcar is as much a transportation tool, a method of conveyance as it is a way to leverage redevelopment in that corridor and that
  • 04:42:45
    Development angle, perhaps more than sort of transportation characteristics, has more or at least as much to do with why that corridor and perhaps some other corridors in the community, the streetcar isn't an optimal type of solution.
  • 04:43:00
    I hope that makes some sense.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:43:02
    Can you say that again?
• • SPEAKER_24
  • 04:43:05
    Well, the streetcar has these two components.
  • 04:43:08
    One is about simply getting people from here to there, which is certainly what we're trying to do with our bus system now.
  • 04:43:14
    But the way that the streetcar is different is that by investing in the streetcar, you're going to motivate private development in a corridor that needs that development.
  • 04:43:24
    Now, there may be some other corridors that the council wants to look at but sort of casting the ball right now, this seems to be the optimal corridor with that in mind.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:43:42
    Okay.
  • 04:43:42
    All right, can I start to work on the same scope of services for this training like this and come soon to a start rate for another six months?
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:43:52
    Okay, so do you have a sense of what we're looking for Mr. Swarff?
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 04:44:00
    I guess if the interest in the private sector is there, if there's a scope of work that's been outlined already, we'll try to make the connection to the Regional Transit Authority, we'll see how we put it together.
  • 04:44:13
    The private sector contribution, the first time I heard of that was yesterday afternoon.
  • 04:44:17
    So we'll see if Mr. Stoner can pull together
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:44:20
    Well, thank you all and we'll bring something back that we can respond to and see if there's a spark in the way forward.
  • 04:44:39
    Next item on our agenda, we are not doing a discussion on quality service efficiency study.
  • 04:44:45
    We are doing a discussion on utility rates.
  • 04:44:48
    Mr. Wray, second of two readings.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 04:44:50
    I'll make it very brief, Mr. Mayor.
  • 04:44:53
    Mr. Mayor, members of City Council, at the first meeting there were several questions.
  • 04:44:58
    The administration was wrapped in responses to those questions, I don't know if everyone received it.
  • 04:45:03
    The one thing tonight, I thank you, everyone,
  • 04:45:07
    I received in the last couple of days a memo from the city attorney wanting to offer up an amendment for the facility fees.
  • 04:45:14
    And we would like to have that amendment introduced if you all concur.
  • 04:45:19
    I actually had three or four developers in my office last week and I think he mentioned one in here but there was one building something in the mall that was a little upset that it was going up because he had already built his cost and this was not part of his cost.
  • 04:45:33
    So we felt it was fair to offer the amendment and the city attorney actually has the language.
  • 04:45:38
    So I guess if the acting city attorney wants to address that, y'all would like to vote on it, we can change that tonight.
• • SPEAKER_25
  • 04:45:46
    Sure, the purpose of the amendment would be to grandfather the existing rates for developers who have already started the process and have the building permits.
  • 04:45:58
    And the amendment actually is the language is that the foregoing shall become effective July 1st, 2008, provided however that the amendment
  • 04:46:09
    to the amount of the water and sewer connection fee in section 31-102 and 31-106 hearing after the facility's fees shall not be applicable to any building or development for which a city building permit has been issued and on-site construction commenced.
  • 04:46:25
    On or before June 16th, that date could certainly be July 1st as well, but you just need to pick a date and obviously June 16th is tonight.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 04:46:38
    That's just for connection fees, correct?
  • 04:46:41
    Right, facility fees, right.
  • 04:46:43
    The grandfather, right.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 04:46:48
    The other issue that we discussed last time was affordable housing and the administration, after looking at it, recommends that there be no further increases or no increases in affordable housing.
  • 04:47:01
    What we don't have is the, I guess, the process and the definition of affordable housing
  • 04:47:07
    Neighborhood Development Services is working on that and we'll have a paper before you at the July meeting.
  • 04:47:14
    The city attorney recommended that we should probably, you know, do things with the rates, pass the rates and we'll come back with that and we can make it effective July 1st.
  • 04:47:23
    But we looked at it and I think we all agreed that the funding basically would come from charging less to the utilities rather than looking at any type of trust fund.
  • 04:47:36
    So I think if it was made at a minimum we'd have to vote on the amendment.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 04:47:49
    is consistent with what we've done on other issues that affect works in progress where people have made plans and projections.
  • 04:47:59
    So I would move the amendment as read by the assistant city attorney with the effective date of June 16.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:48:08
    Is there a second on that motion?
  • 04:48:11
    Second.
  • 04:48:13
    Any further discussion on the amendment itself?
  • 04:48:16
    Please indicate your vote.
  • 04:48:19
    Okay, so now we have the ordinance itself before us.
  • 04:48:28
    Mr. Ray, you had
  • 04:48:31
    In response to questions from counselors about the size of the increase in the hookup fees, you were presenting some information about how reduced hookup fees would affect the utility rate for the current rate.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 04:48:47
    Exactly.
  • 04:48:48
    The question was, and I think it was Mr. Councilman Taliaferro that said if people was half, what would it be?
  • 04:48:54
    So we basically did the analysis and, for example,
  • 04:48:59
    For sewer fees, if we cut it in half, the rate, for example, if we left it as it is today, no increase, the rate would be 18% in 2010, because all these rates will affect next year, not this year, the facility fees.
  • 04:49:16
    If we cut it in half, the rate increase would be 11.99% for sewer.
  • 04:49:22
    So it still drops it,
  • 04:49:26
    If we do the whole facility fee, it would be 9.85.
  • 04:49:30
    So that's about a 2% difference there.
  • 04:49:33
    For water, if we do half of the fee, it would be a 5.87% increase.
  • 04:49:39
    If we do the whole fee, it would be a 3.9% increase.
  • 04:49:42
    If we do no increase, it would be an 8% increase.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:49:46
    And the other question had to do with the suggestions.
  • 04:49:53
    You came up with some suggestions regarding
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 04:49:56
    We looked at the expenses and we felt that there was $50,000 in water and $50,000 in sewer for centralized customer service, which is basically for the renovation of the lobby.
  • 04:50:10
    The city manager felt that probably there wasn't time to do that.
  • 04:50:13
    You could reduce the rate and say for water and sewer, it happened to be the same number, 22 cents per month.
  • 04:50:19
    We recommend, because of all the capital projects that are going to be happening next year, that that money be put in a stabilization fund and used to keep the rates down a little bit next year, rather than reducing it 22 cents a month.
  • 04:50:31
    For gas, there's $200,000 of the same thing in there, and there again we recommend that money be reduced, but put it in a stabilization fund rather than reducing the rates.
  • 04:50:41
    It would save 72 cents a month if you reduce the rates because of that.
  • 04:50:46
    So we just felt it would be better, especially with the energy market, the way it's going, do something next year rather than the small math this year.
  • 04:50:55
    And I believe that was already... That was it, and this Councilman Edwards had asked for both the relief programs and utilities.
  • 04:51:03
    We tried to outline all those for you.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 04:51:08
    Why would there be more benefit next year than this year?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 04:51:10
    We've got a lot of capital project expenses that are going to be coming online, the debt service.
  • 04:51:14
    That's what's driving up the rates.
  • 04:51:16
    For Sew It For An Example, if we don't do any facility fees increases, it will be an 18% increase.
  • 04:51:22
    We could take that money and keep those rates down a little bit because of all the CFP projects, which is pretty standard in the utility industry to do that with stabilization funds.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:51:35
    Any other questions or comments or a motion to approve the ordinance as amended?
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 04:51:43
    Yeah.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:51:45
    Okay.
  • 04:51:47
    Any other questions or comments before we take a vote?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:51:52
    So what are the changes that you suggested?
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:51:55
    That's correct.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 04:51:57
    Alright, we'll come back with the affordable housing procedures that they are in the July meeting.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:52:01
    Those were the suggestions you just talked about.
  • 04:52:04
    The stabilization fund?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 04:52:05
    The stabilization fund.
  • 04:52:06
    You don't have to do anything, we will just make sure it goes into stabilization because the rates are staying the same so you'll basically end up with that $200,000 in gas and $50,000 in water and $50,000 in soap.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 04:52:16
    You change the future use for that money.
  • 04:52:19
    Right.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 04:52:20
    We're putting it in a special fund to be used for next year.
  • 04:52:23
    Keep it down.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:52:26
    Further comments?
  • 04:52:28
    Questions?
  • 04:52:29
    If not, please indicate your vote on the ordinance as amended.
  • 04:52:33
    Thank you very much, Mr. Wray.
  • 04:52:39
    We have two items from our consent agenda that have been removed for further discussion.
  • 04:52:43
    First is item G, a resolution to special permit for increased density at 1311 Wortland Street.
  • 04:52:49
    Mr. Taliaferro or Mr. Huja?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:52:55
    So now is the time to get done if you want to get done.
  • 04:53:09
    So, I am not a post specialist for now, but I do want to have some more street trees in the front on that street.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 04:53:27
    I wasn't particularly at that meeting, but I read the minutes and talked to the staff that presented this.
  • 04:53:32
    There was discussion about the street trees.
  • 04:53:34
    I think the Planning Commission was unsure whether they could include any conditions that did not mitigate the impact of the actual development or the actual increase in density.
  • 04:53:47
    So that's why they didn't vote to place street trees there.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:53:53
    But I feel it will mitigate the effect because even more density, even more people, and this will help with your mentally.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:54:06
    Can you discuss, or Mr. Tolbert, just in terms of a process question at this point, if we're going to pursue an amendment of the nature that Mr. Huja is suggesting, what the steps would be?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:54:22
    Especially when it's general conditions.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 04:54:24
    Right, you can't apply a condition that's a reasonable condition related to the project to a special use permit.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:54:33
    You're pursuing another reason?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 04:54:36
    No, I didn't say that.
  • 04:54:38
    I said that is the standard, that if it is reasonably related to the special use permit, if one additional unit, in your opinion, demands more street trees, then you could ask that, as long as you articulate that, that they're being
  • 04:54:54
    We'd like to know how many so when it gets to site plan we can tell them.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:54:58
    Hopefully we have two.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:55:00
    We'll discuss for two.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 04:55:01
    Yeah.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:55:02
    Do you feel professionally, in your professional opinion, this is a reasonable request?
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 04:55:06
    I don't think it's unreasonable.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:55:08
    Okay.
  • 04:55:08
    Is there any opposition to Mr. Huja's request on the part of council?
  • 04:55:14
    I would entertain a motion to amend the special permit.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:55:20
    Yes or no.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:55:20
    For a second.
  • 04:55:23
    I second.
  • 04:55:27
    So let's vote on the amendment itself.
  • 04:55:32
    Do you want to phrase it in the form?
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 04:55:35
    You can just move it.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:55:38
    All right, so is there, sorry, it's late.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 04:55:40
    It's just one reading.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:55:42
    It's just one reading.
  • 04:55:43
    A motion to approve the special permit for increased density at 1311 Worton Street as amended.
  • 04:55:49
    Please indicate your vote.
  • 04:55:52
    Thank you, Mr. Huja.
  • 04:55:54
    Thank you, Mr. Albemarle.
  • 04:55:57
    Mr. Taliaferro, ordinance expanding $200 in his speeding fines to Elliott Avenue, Brandon, One Drive and Franklin Street.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 04:56:04
    Yeah, I just want to state my opposition to that and the reason is I think the fine is excessive and it's not been proven to me that it's reduced the speeding that much and I just think it causes an unnecessary hardship on some people that have difficulty paying
  • 04:56:24
    who ultimately may lose their license and will probably be driving without a license and there's a whole lot of issues involved with that and I just think the fines now are sufficient and with the data that I think the data said it would reduce the speed limit I think an average of two miles an hour statistically is not a great reduction to me so I just wanted to state that
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:56:53
    I have similar concerns as Julian Taliaferro has, and I mentioned last time that opposed to the general idea, but I went along last time because of the 3 is to 6, but I have special concerns about, and I hope as I can think of to make some sense of you frankly because I am nervous of the photo of that.
  • 04:57:14
    I don't have anyone else interested in that area.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:57:17
    Well, we did get a petition from Elliott Avenue, residents on Elliott Avenue, in support of the fines, and there was at least one resident of Brandywine Drive here at our last meeting.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:57:27
    I'm just worried about the opportunity to try a heavy foot on Brandywine, you know, just because it changes things.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:57:34
    Other counselors, what's your play?
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 04:57:41
    I've never thought these finds were a good idea.
  • 04:57:44
    I sort of felt like I went along with them the last time at a reduced rate.
  • 04:57:50
    I sort of agree with Mr. Taliaferro.
  • 04:57:55
    I think there are families who are going to have a teenager who speeds and now they're going to have trouble paying the fine and I think that's unfortunate.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:58:09
    Mr. Edwards, any thoughts?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 04:58:11
    The idea of the fine is to change driving behavior.
  • 04:58:18
    That's the goal.
  • 04:58:21
    And I just think that as we talk about having a city that we're able to connect by walking and that's pedestrian friendly and that's friendly to bicycle riders that we need to change the culture of the city of when that's safe for everyone.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 04:58:41
    I would agree with you if that was the case.
  • 04:58:44
    I was sure it would change the behavior that much, except that it would have been in the pocket and it would be difficult to pay.
  • 04:58:54
    Again, at least for the data, that's sufficient to justify this kind of thing.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 04:59:00
    And to speak for the staff.
  • 04:59:02
    That was the point of explaining it in part was in order to have enough data to say is this a good tool to use or not.
  • 04:59:11
    I think that would represent what I heard the last time.
  • 04:59:15
    Mr. Mayor, I welcome hearing your opinion on this subject.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 04:59:20
    Like you, I went along with it.
  • 04:59:23
    I do think on certain streets where there's been a demonstrated pattern of excessive speeding, that having the enhanced fines makes sense, which is why I was happy to support Arnold Lynchburg Road and Avon Street in Alta Vista last year.
  • 04:59:38
    I defer as you did, as others did, to the advice of staff on the merits of adding these streets into the system and re-evaluating at a certain time period to see if they've been effective or not.
  • 04:59:56
    But if the sense of counsel is that this is too much, I'm not going to lose any sleep if we don't approve them tonight.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 05:00:09
    I guess my question is, I've already lost sleep, so it's all relative now.
  • 05:00:16
    But if this doesn't move forward, then what's the plan for the same goal of making sure that people are adhering to the speed limit and do we have issues with country?
  • 05:00:29
    You know, just how are we else, how better can we address those concerns?
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:00:37
    Well, I think that's a good question.
  • 05:00:39
    I mean, our options are somewhat limited, and I know our police department felt like this was one tool that they had available to them, that we were given by the state to be able to ensure the safety of certain neighborhood streets, and again, I was...
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 05:01:00
    I think we were both silent, and many on some traffic coming could use some help.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:01:07
    Mr. Talbot.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 05:01:10
    I would add that one of the conditions, if you remember, Ms. Alexander, for these streets is that they do not meet the criteria and we would not do traffic calming on these streets because of the tight roadways they are.
  • 05:01:23
    That is probably not an option.
  • 05:01:25
    We'd also point out that the judge does have the option to give community service and eliminate the fines, so police officers pointed that out.
  • 05:01:33
    And then thirdly, if you decide not to add these three streets, this ordinance did extend the three that were created last year under test period.
  • 05:01:41
    And so if you don't want those to sunset, the ordinance would need to be amended to make sure that those weren't forward anyway.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 05:01:50
    Let me support continuing with three, which are food,
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 05:01:53
    I don't have any problems looking at the three we've done.
  • 05:01:58
    I still want to see some more information down the road that it's made a difference.
  • 05:02:03
    And I don't think two miles an hour is the difference.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:02:07
    Dr. Byron, I think you're the swimming boat on this one.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 05:02:10
    Well, why don't you call for the vote and you'll see what I'm talking about.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:02:15
    Well, I'm afraid to see the ordinance go down in flames because I think there is some sense for at least maintaining the three streets.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 05:02:25
    Well, maybe we can allow the motion to inherit those three streets.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 05:02:28
    Mr. Mayor, I will defer to your judgment sitting in that seat and if you'd like to get more data
  • 05:02:37
    by expanding it by three more streets.
  • 05:02:40
    I'll support that with the idea that we will come back and discuss the merits of this overall plan in a year.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:02:46
    What is the year provision?
  • 05:02:48
    I forget.
• • Jim TolbertDirector of Neighborhood Development Services
  • 05:02:48
    I think that's what she would like to say.
  • 05:02:50
    I think a year would give us a good time period.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:02:52
    Is that a motion, Dr. Brown?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 05:02:55
    I have no questions.
  • 05:02:58
    Okay.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 05:03:00
    We don't need a motion because we're not changing anything, right?
• • SPEAKER_25
  • 05:03:04
    Okay.
  • 05:03:05
    Are you doing this, passing the ordinance as is?
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:03:09
    Yes, that's exactly what you're suggesting.
• • Gary O'ConnellCity Manager
  • 05:03:11
    Okay.
  • 05:03:11
    He's asking for a vote.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 05:03:13
    Okay.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:03:14
    Okay.
  • 05:03:15
    Ms. Edwards, do you have another question?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 05:03:17
    I did.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:03:19
    Do you remember what it was?
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 05:03:22
    Okay.
  • 05:03:24
    Did you want to pass the amendment, pass the ordinance, but with the original three streets?
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 05:03:29
    That's included in the ordinance, yeah.
• • Holly EdwardsMember, City Council
  • 05:03:32
    That's the original three streets.
• • David BrownMember, City Council
  • 05:03:33
    No, but the ordinance also expands it by three.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 05:03:35
    The vote will be to expand it by three.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:03:42
    We could, but I'm hearing that there's three counselors who are willing to... We haven't heard yet, so maybe you guys will think about it.
  • 05:03:53
    I would entertain a motion to approve the ordinance as is, and we don't need a motion.
  • 05:04:00
    I will call for a vote on the... Is that correct?
  • 05:04:04
    I will call for a vote on the ordinance as is, and we'll see what happens.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 05:04:09
    Oh, sorry, I went below.
  • 05:04:11
    It's too late.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:04:13
    All right, the ordinance carries, motion carries, the ordinance carries.
  • 05:04:18
    Thank you very much and we'll come back and revisit this in a year.
  • 05:04:22
    Any other business on tonight's agenda, on yesterday's agenda?
  • 05:04:34
    If none, we'll open it up to matters by the public.
  • 05:04:37
    Anybody from the public would like to speak?
  • 05:04:39
    Mr. Raymond Mason.
  • 05:04:41
    He's a trooper.
• • SPEAKER_23
  • 05:04:45
    Marina Mason, 717 5th Avenue.
  • 05:04:47
    Something I heard earlier tonight when you're talking about refurbishing the mall, I think it was Chief Tolfaro or the City Council of California said it.
  • 05:04:56
    The lights are not tall enough to allow a ladder truck to go through, if I'm correct.
  • 05:05:01
    I thought I was hearing that correct, but what else I heard was that in order to position a ladder truck down, you have to move furniture or chairs from the cafes and everything.
  • 05:05:11
    So what that led me to believe was that you were sacrificing
  • 05:05:13
    and the safety of the people who live downtown on the mall, even workers who live on the mall, for business.
  • 05:05:20
    I would love to see a lot of truck come to the mall, you know, just like on a fire drill, and just actually set up and see what would happen during a busy time of the day, because fires don't take holidays, they happen at any time, but if the restaurants, the outside cafes are blocking or prohibiting them from doing their job, you know,
  • 05:05:39
    Maybe you should look into that because, like I say, someone could actually lose their life because you have to move a table out of the way or your laptop couldn't set up, you know, they have outriggers that go out and Albemarle left here for a break, I went outside and looked and it didn't look very wide and, you know, with the trees and everything up, I don't know, there seems to be some issues.
  • 05:05:57
    Also, the street called the same thing.
  • 05:05:59
    If you had, you know, wires over here, wires, you know, if you had a fire, you had to use it very well, it would be the same thing.
  • 05:06:04
    It might be in a way you don't know, so that's something that you might look into, but I'd appreciate if you check into it for me.
• • Dave NorrisMayor, City Council
  • 05:06:08
    Thank you, Mr. Mason.
  • 05:06:10
    Anybody else from the public like to speak?
  • 05:06:13
    If not, we'll close the matter.
  • 05:06:14
    By the public means adjourn.
• • Julian TaliaferroVice Mayor, City Council
  • 05:06:15
    Thank you.
• • 05:06:31
    and David Brown.