Board of Architectural Review Meeting   2/17/2021

Good evening, everybody.

Welcome to the February 2021 Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review virtual meeting.

Like I said, we're now live on channel 10 and we're continuing to stream on the city's streaming channels.

My name is Robert Watkins.

I'm city staff and I'll be moderating tonight's meeting.

Before I hand things over to Carl Schwartz, our chair, I'm going to go over a few guidelines and housekeeping tips to make sure that tonight's meeting runs smoothly for everybody involved.

So first, for all the folks who might be watching at home, I'm going to introduce the meeting participants who are online right now.

First, we have Carl Schwartz, the chair of the BAR.

We're also joined by Brett Gastinger, vice chair.

Other VA members who are present include Tim Moore, Jody Lehendro, Cheri Lewis, Ron Bailey, and Andy McClure.

James Zehmer should be joining us, I believe, later on tonight.

We're also joined by Jeff Werner, who is my colleague in city staff.

And throughout the meeting, applicants and other participants will join the meeting as necessary.

For members of the public who are on the call right now who'd like to provide any comment, there are several places in the agenda where you can speak.

At the beginning of the meeting, we allow time for comments from the public for items not on the agenda.

Then before the BAR deliberates each individual application, we allow time for public comment.

In order to provide any public comment, we ask that you register for the meeting if you haven't already.

And you can do this on the city calendar on the city website.

When you join the meeting through Zoom, you'll become an attendee.

And then when we get to the comment portion of the agenda, you can raise your hand using the raise hand feature on the participant list, and then I will unmute you.

Then the timer will begin and you'll have three minutes to speak.

Also, meeting attendees may end up using, oh no, sorry, this is my script and it's a little outdated.

For applicants who are online already, you are currently in the meeting as an attendee, which means you have limited audio and video capabilities.

When your project comes up on the agenda, I'll promote you to panelists, so you'll have mute and unmute capabilities and we can see you.

When I promote you from attendee to panelist, you'll be booted out of the meeting temporarily, and then you'll come back in as panelists, so just hang tight.

Also during the staff and applicant presentations for each project, I'll be sharing my screen to scan through pages of your application that you submitted for visual aid.

While the BAR deliberates, I'm happy to share my screen again to reference specific pages or drawings.

To applicants and BAR members, if you'd like me to go to a specific page, please give me a verbal command to direct me to the specific page number.

I guess now it's time for me to hand things over to our chair, Carl, but feel free to ask me any additional technical questions throughout the meeting if you have any.

All right.

Welcome to this regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review.

Staff will introduce each item followed by the applicant's presentation, which should not exceed 10 minutes.

The chair will then ask for questions from the public, followed by questions from the BAR.

After questions are closed, I'll ask for comments from the public.

For each application, members of the public are each allowed three minutes to ask questions and three minutes to offer comments.

Speakers shall identify themselves and provide their address.

Comments should be limited to the BAR's purview, that is regarding only the exterior aspects of the project.

Following the BAR's discussion and prior to taking action, the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond.

Thank you for participating.

So right now we have Madison Public not on the agenda.

If you'd like to provide public comment, please use the raise hand feature in the participant tab or press star nine if you're calling in.

Great.

All right.

So we've got the consent agenda, which again includes the BAR minutes from October 20th, 2020 and the COA for 511 East Water Street.

Second.

Thank you very much.

I will now call a vote.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Mr. Moore?

Thank you.

Mr. Lehendra?

Aye.

Mr. Schwartz?

Yes.

Thank you.

And Ms.

I'm going ahead and I'm promoting Gordon Johnson who represents this project.

All right.

All right.

And while that's happening, so this is a project that we had on the agenda last month and Ms.

Johnson was not available to join us, but we did have a brief discussion about it and I've modified the staff report accordingly and

But, so this is a COA request.

It's for 116 West Jefferson Street.

This is in the North downtown ADC district.

This is a formerly the Rivercom house.

It's a colonial revival style home that was constructed in 1913.

There is a building at the rear.

I don't know whether to call it a house or a structure or what, but it is, it's contemporary.

I think probably sometime late eighties or late seventies, early eighties.

The house originally had a front porch in the photo as you see it and was removed in 1974.

The request is first to reconstruct the front porch as best as possible, given the evidence and information we have available, which is summarized in the report.

At the rear of the house, there is a connection, a hyphen that links the

The original house with the building in the back, looking to remove that.

And then there's some alterations to the structure in the rear, taking out some windows, adding some doors.

And then finally, there's on the rear of the existing house where that hyphen is removed, the porch will be, the railing will be repaired to match what is there.

I said we've had a lot of conversations about this.

Staff's been supportive of it.

The, you know, again, reminder that what the staff report and the photographs and the application kind of all together form the body of this submittal.

So make sure that as we, when a motion is made, that if anything needs to be revised or amended, that that's,

Hey, evening.

Corden, I'm happy to change the PDF that's shown or the page to whichever page you need me to.

You can add whatever you want.

OK, got it.

Well, with that being said, yeah, I think the staff report did

communicate everything we were looking for.

Well, if that's it, then are there any questions from the public?

I'm not seeing anything.

So I guess just to be clear, the staff had a big long list of, I guess, descriptions of all the things you would match and do.

Great.

I think, oops, Mr. Chair, if you could scroll up to my, I guess where I'd

that were in the staff report.

I don't know whether I'm scrolling yours, Robert, or mine.

Then just go through there and just off the court.

It's fine.

This is, there is no, I don't want to say no formality to BAR, but you know, this is the design process.

And then it's, you know, that's the give and take is what

this group enjoys and what's good at.

So a discussion is fine.

Don't worry, you're not.

There's no point scale in presentation.

So yeah, so and just what happened also, Gordon, is when we were talking about last time, I think Mr. Gasteringer was looking on Google and said, hey, there's a house around the corner that has similar columns.

Maybe we look to that.

And so the first, I think, point of discussion that

we might want to have.

So what there's in the old photographs, there's a slightly vague, you can tell there's some design, some sort of ornamentation at the top of the column.

And so the first item I would say is, and Jody, maybe you can lead the charge on that.

It's just to make sure we're clear on the type of column that we're talking about and what Gordon sees.

Yes.

And I apologize.

Oh, well, I was just going to go walk down through the,

Staff report as far as things that, I'm sorry, I'm being- Why don't you go ahead then, Jeff, finish what your presentation is or your staff report.

Yeah, well, I was basically saying as far as the discussion goes, if this helped with you all is to work down through, I know in some of these staff report, sorry, in some of these items, there are some things where paint color to be determined, flooring material to be determined.

that this offers a checklist for you all in your conversation with Gordon.

That's all I meant.

And I just started at the columns at the top.

So we say, is Gordon okay with these things?

And to be clear, Jeff,

I mean, I see you've got everything illustrated.

Are these illustrations all tied to one of your discussion points up in the text?

Yes and no.

So let me try it this way.

So I know that the, stay right there on that image, Robert.

So the schemasi ionic and the schemasi is simply the

I don't know what the curls are rotated at an angle.

And in the old photograph, there is some ornamentation and you can see it in this image.

This is simply an image I pulled offline.

So the question for the BAR is to the extent of being similar to what we can determine from the photographs, what detail

does the BAR prefer for the Collin Capital?

So that's a question mark for you all.

Talk about now or later?

All right, then we'll just speed this along.

I don't think we have any more questions.

It doesn't sound like so maybe we should just move right.

Yeah, that's what I understood.

Just for the sake of formality, are there any comments from the public?

All right, great.

OK, so yes, let's do as Jeff has said, let's go through this item by item.

and make sure we've got everything cleared up.

So I think... Go ahead.

I would recommend that the capitals be a schematic similar to what is that the Altamont Circle example that we're looking at or that I'm looking at.

and Mr. Johnson, you'll be limited to what is available out there on the market.

So Jeff, I expect can help you with some of the possibilities for manufacturers that offer Scamazzi capitals, but it'll be your responsibility to match the Scamazzi capital

so that it's similar in appearance to this and also of the proper size for the column and the pilaster itself.

Does anyone have any concerns with that?

And Robert, I just emailed you something if you are able to give me a sec.

All right.

And just this is just to express what, you know, not trying to reinvent the wheel, just just to express that, you know, what, what we were talking about the

and the columns that are on Altamont Circle have, there we go, okay.

So, for example, there is the ionic that has a canthus and then go to the next one, Robert.

This one simply has that band at the top.

That seems to be sort of what's there.

So I think the idea was,

You know, that at least this is how in a conversation with Jody is that there be some sort of ornament at the top either of that band or or even with the acanthus leaves, but it just not be plain below the Capitol.

So Jeff or Robert, whoever's controlling the cursor, could you put the cursor on the necking that's on the heartwood carving example so that Mr. Johnson knows what we're talking about.

The necking is that piece there.

And then on the historic photo,

Oh, you don't have that.

I've got it on my screen.

Sorry.

But clearly, there appears to be something similar on the historic photo, unlike the Altamont Circle chat.

Got it.

And so it's probably more prominent, even in the engaged pilaster at the rear, you can see that line.

So that was where we were saying, hmm,

and kind of putting it on to the rest of the BAR, is that a detail that you all feel is important?

I'll stop talking.

The comments so far all suggest that we're treating this as a reconstruction.

So Gordon, are you clear on what we're talking about there?

Yeah.

And hopefully this will just be through Jeff because if you match our

If you provide him something that, you know, meets the criteria we're describing, it should hopefully just stop with Jeff and you'll have to come back to us.

Yeah.

The goal is not, you know, a $15,000 custom column capital.

But it is, I know there's a lot of different variety and types out there.

So it'd be you and I working together, Gordon, to find something that's available and that begins to simulate that ring at the top.

I think the next issue on this one was the gutter detail.

Is there... Well, the next one down, so the trimming cornice, just to be clear, we've got existing trimming cornice on the house, so that can be replicated.

Well, I'm on page two.

Oh, no, that's my Baltimore accent.

I said, pictures.

Okay, that's good.

Unrailing, so here is just to be clear that the profile of the railing and of the pickets, we're offering some latitude

probably even more so than on the column capitals.

And I also specifically noted there that the height will conform to building code.

But if there was anything more specific that we wanted to say about the railing other than similar what you said about the column capitals bouncing off me.

I think your description, I think you got it.

Okay, good.

Now to the roof.

And this was the discussion of, and staff's recommendation was to evaluate a standing seam metal because that is what's there.

But there's also, you know, acknowledging that some distance below the sill of the windows is necessary.

And with that also the gutter and downspout component of it.

So

No, I think we actually meant for it to say standing seam.

I don't think the intent was EPDM.

I think the, yeah, intent was to replicate what was there.

And then on the gutter detail, there was discussion when we looked at the 201 East High Street and that if you would go down to the images, which is page 13 of the staff report, page 36 of the.

And this is where there was the discussion of

They were not going to go with the built-in gutter.

They had originally thought, you know, proposed just a flat aphasia.

And there was a request to, you know, allow go without the built-in gutter, but to add a piece of crown that replicated that cornice that had been there.

What you see there is just, it's the sketch from 201.

What's the photograph on the bottom left of?

Oh no, now I'm like, Carl, I'm lost.

Only thing that we're referring to here is, don't look at the details, just look at the condition of that the cornice of the front porch will be replicated, including that piece of crown.

And if you go up, there's a rough sketch.

Rough sketch photographs.

If you go up to page nine, I roughly sketched the cornice and then I dropped it into the, so you can see there it is right there.

So the, nope, stop right there.

So that's the cornice approximately that I sketched from the photographs.

So there's a piece of a bed mold, there's the dental, then you come up, there's a fascia piece with a kind of a bed mold and wraps the medilions and then it comes up to the front and there's another piece of fascia with the crown mold going up underneath the eave.

So in the condition that here replicating what you did at 201, it would look like that and then the eave mounted gutter would be

And that crown is matching the crown that's on the main roof, right?

Well, Gordon, as long as we say it's matching the crown of the main, you know, the whole cornice is matching the main roof from the fascia against the building and the dentals all the way up to the crown beneath the standing seam, including the medallion blocks.

In lieu of a built-in, right.

OK.

Good, I'm happy.

That currently has built-in gutters that are remaining that we're not doing any work to.

So, I mean, I guess the rest of the, just,

For the record, and this is really more an opinion on my part, just if it were my house, and I did this similarly, because of the rest of the house being like that, and this is sort of the premier element as you approach the house, my gut would be to remain with building gutters, but I'm not enforcing that, I'm just saying that would be my, I think, given the quality of the house, that would be preferred to putting the half rounds, just because they've compromised the line

Eve there.

But nobody's going to enforce that.

And while I support that philosophically, practically, not a dog gone built in gutter doesn't leak pretty soon.

And I just can't, I mean, hell, we can't keep them here at the university.

We can't keep them from leaking.

And we got, you know, lots of resources.

Yeah, no, I said it's not enforceable.

And I was going to say that, you know, there will come projects where, you know, the age of the house, the type of the house, I think, you know, we're going to have to, you know, Tim's going to that his opinion will

I think have to be weighed.

But yeah, this has been somewhat of the BAR's tradition of allowing these, the changes.

So, but we at least have a detail that maintains that profile.

The next question was, and I don't want to get into too much of the weeds, but my assumption was that the porch flooring was either a one by four, one by six run, you know, front to back and not, you know, some trex material or not.

You know, concrete with tile.

So didn't know how much you want to get into that.

What's being proposed?

What is being proposed?

Again, we're trying to replicate what was there.

So I think our intention was some wood decking to match that era.

So it would be

You know, match what was in the photo as best as we can.

If that was one by four, that would be what we go with.

And I actually have the note at the bottom says, in the event of unknown detail, applicants shall look to the existing condition.

my four or six out the month.

So those people are probably gonna call me and wonder why people are standing in the front yard.

Again, the trim, the apron, all that I think is clear.

The ceiling, I'm calling for a ceiling board and a simple cove that I don't think anything too fancy.

Porch framing, clear enough.

Lighting.

I don't think we've gotten that far along in the design, but I think it would be something simple, straightforward, again, matching what the original house had.

The thing over the front door I think is a bird's nest now.

So the windows, I recognize you said they're probably builder grade.

I just want to know what's going back in.

You know, we do have rules about vinyl.

So just want to make sure that what type of windows are you proposing to put back in?

Are they wood windows?

Are they aluminum?

We honestly haven't gotten that far in the design either.

I think they wouldn't be vinyl where they will land.

I'm not not sure yet.

I think I'm not even sure if we're replacing all the windows or it was just windows where adjustments are made to the attachment.

So I don't know what you guys think, but I think it'd be good to suggest that, yes, you can match what's existing in style.

But if the existing windows are vinyl, the new one should be wood, should be aluminum clad wood, or should be a fiberglass composite.

Yeah.

and yeah, just to submit those cut sheets to Jeff.

So I think the three things that would need to be submitted to Jeff are a light fixture, window cut sheets, and the column capital that you end up choosing.

Was there anything else that- And the railing profile.

Railing profile, okay.

That's four things.

I had a question for Gordon.

Yes, there was actually.

And I think the client architect also maintained the same thing.

They'd like to restore what the original building had.

Wood.

I'm glad you brought that up, Cheri.

I think that the shutters bring a lot to that elevation.

Yeah, that's great.

And maybe just a list of materials on the porch.

It seems like Jeff has submitted to you a list of materials, but I sort of feel like

We should be getting them from you as the applicant.

I don't, I feel like I'm just kind of catching up on this, but.

The flooring on the porch, besides lighting and other features.

So that would go to Jeff, just to confirm that they're meeting what we've discussed.

Correct.

I guess that's my question.

Are we voting on this as a final submittal?

Because I'm not seeing that the applicant's given us a lot of materials except for some features that are shown kind of around the exterior of the porch.

The way I'm looking at it is I see

I mean, the photographs only offer so much.

The description, we're providing a template with what the other ones we have.

I think with the flooring, I was more getting at that it's wood, you know, that's tongue and groove wood flooring and the one by four, one by six, so that it's not, you know, just big pieces of something.

So either one of those or even something smaller would be fine.

as far as the railings on the, I mean, being a bit familiar with the work Gordon and his folks have done, I suspect it's going to be, you know, that they understand this, you know, what we're shooting for.

But yeah, if they came in and said, you know, hey, here's what we've got, and I'm like, guys, that's just way off base, then I don't sign off on the building permit.

So that's the next step in all of this is that,

You know, when the building permit comes in, you know, I'll at least want to see what what what are they planning to do?

And and that's the final sign off.

But it is where I mean, it's.

I think what we're saying is the B.A.R.

is not requiring a custom manufactured turning here.

They're not we're trying to find something of a similar profile of that period.

and then trusting my judgment to say that, you know, not to approve it, but to say, no, I can say you've missed the mark.

And I think that's, I think that's appropriate for this sort of thing.

You're not, I think if you were a brick building and you were saying, well, does that look like the same brick and this looked like, I don't know, that's different.

That's all.

Does anybody have any concerns with approving it per the discussion items?

Yeah, the porch railing.

I mean, I'm showing a photograph here.

So, there really should be no... I think the motion, I would hope, could just reference these discussion points with the clarifications that we need to make.

Okay.

So I offer in the staff recommendation just above the motion, three things.

You know, one recommend approval on removing the connection, no issues there.

relative to the porch reconstruction, you can see what I wrote and you can alter that accordingly.

And then for the alterations to contemporary structure, instead of saying staff does not believe additional specificity is necessary, say that the windows will be, Carl had the list.

I won't mention it very much.

Okay, you ready?

Okay, having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including the ADC district design guidelines, I move to find the proposed front porch reconstruction and exterior alterations at 116 West Jefferson Street, satisfy the DAR's criteria,

We would like to see additional information regarding what you select finally for the column capital, the porch railings, and the window specification for the new addition.

Is there anything else in terms of the materials?

I don't think so.

Did you say light fixture?

Oh, and the light fixture, yes.

Thank you.

All right.

Can I suggest an amendment?

Yes.

All right, I'm gonna read something and then you tell me if I'm off.

I would recommend the following.

Having considered the standards set forth in the city code, including ADC district guidelines and move to find the proposed front porch reconstruction exterior alterations at 116 West Jefferson Street satisfy the BAR's criteria and are compatible with this property and other properties in the North Downtown ADC district and that the BAR approves the application as submitted with the following modifications.

One, the front porch will have standing seam roof and a gutter detail similar to that in the staff report that the approval references the narratives and clarifications and photographs included as supplemental to the staff report and the applicant submittal.

The applicant will submit for staff review the proposed column capital.

The applicant will provide for staff review the porch railing and pickets and any proposed exterior light fixtures.

Second, the alterations to the windows and doors

at the rear contemporary structure.

Do you accept my friendly amendment?

Thank you, Joe.

Any seconds?

Thank you, Ron.

I will call a vote now.

Mr. McClure?

Aye.

Mr. Gastinger?

Mr. Moore?

Mr. Lehendra?

Aye.

Mr. Schwartz?

Yes.

Ms.

All right.

Gordon, thank you.

And we're actually even more fun in real person in a meeting, so hopefully

Nothing else was entertaining.

If you wouldn't mind pulling down the sign or wherever Robert put it in front of the building.

And as you move forward, whatever you need, Robert and I, in fact, live around the corner.

So we'll help you out as much as you all need, okay?

Thank you, Gordon.

Thank you.

I know we'd love to take you, but this is an exciting project.

All right, next.

So as we move on to the next agenda item, I am promoting landscape architect Anne Prey and Whitney Hudson and Jeff Dreyfus from Bushman Dreyfus.

Let me get there.

Okay.

So, and I know we have some additional things on the agenda afterwards and I, excuse me, and I know that tonight, just before we get into anything about this, this is intended as a continuation of the discussion towards a final submittal, towards a COA, but we're not there tonight.

However,

So we're all clear the applicant must request, well, the applicant is obligated on his end to request the deferral this evening.

The BAR can only accept that.

Lacking a request from the applicant, the BAR would have to take a vote up or down on this proposal at this time.

So we're clear on that.

So this is a COA request for 612 West Main.

And so folks know the address is 602-616, but we're referring collectively to 612 West Main.

It is in the downtown ADC district.

I also know some people always wonder about that, but actually the West Main district doesn't start until further down the block to the west.

This is a request to construct a new mixed-use building.

As I've mentioned before, there's an existing concrete automotive building there built in the 50s.

It is non-contributing and it's not subject to BAR review.

Look, I have West Mainey, so I need to fix that report there.

You all have had a couple of discussions with the applicant.

The last was on December 15th.

And what we've been doing is working our way through

a series of the design steps and the applicant has provided graphic information for us for you all to review and has presented tonight some questions that they would like to specifically get at in the conversation.

And it doesn't mean you all are only limited to what they're presenting and asking about, but that's the game plan for this evening.

So without further ado, I'll hand it over to Jeff

OK, great.

Thank you.

Thanks, Jeff.

Thanks everybody for having us back.

We're not intending to wear you out, we're just intending to keep you informed and give you an opportunity to continue to give us guidance prior to coming to you for official approval.

I think what I'd like to do early in this is hand it over to Anne Prey, who is our landscape architect on the project.

But to give you all a very quick overview, the questions that we sent are comments, any thoughts you all have, questions you have about the landscape and the hardscape plan, the building design, the

North elevation, the West Main Street elevation, really hasn't changed much from what you all saw two months ago.

I'll talk a little bit about some of the modifications that we're contemplating there, but then you'll also see both the West elevation and South elevations so that we might get any input from you all on those as we continue to develop them.

So given that, I turn it over to Anne who might do a little bit of

All right, thanks guys for giving us some time this evening to talk a little bit about the development of the plan since you last saw it.

I wanna speak a little bit about how we are trying to respond to some earlier comments about creating pedestrian engagement and making the building more active at the street at the same time, looking to break down the building mass and making it a little bit more pedestrian and body scale friendly as well to the street.

I'm going to run through sort of the plan design here pretty quickly, but probably work from the north elevation a little bit more so that we can look at that in scale and in elevation.

I think it reads a little bit better.

From the outset of the project, this courtyard area, which is on the right hand side of the screen, has always been an important part of that residential entry of the building, which obviously is one of its largest purposes.

We're looking to create an engagement with the mural wall and also look at a way to sort of you know just slide in a little bit smaller sort of garden experience here with using a water feature and some benches and some planting at the same time opening up the courtyard for the entry.

You can see one of the devices we're using to sort of connect with the larger building is a change in material on the ground plane.

from something smaller at the street to then something larger that runs along the whole front of the building to then again something smaller in the courtyard, which we think gives it a little bit sense of place as you come in.

We have right now located three planters along the length of the building.

two at the sort of four bay to create a little bit more of a density so we have this open more open concept at the courtyard closing it off a little bit in the front of the four bay side of the building and then again opening it up more towards the center and middle as we get to the sort of five bay and then using a larger but singular planter towards the end to relate the scale back to the earlier sort of four bay of the building.

You can see here as you run down to the west of the building, we are negotiating with grade a little bit.

We have one singular area that grows into two steps at the end.

So we have about a foot of grade change running from east to west.

Obviously that side on the courtyard we're looking to make open and accessible as possible.

So that grade does connect flush across to the main sidewalk so that, you know, it's obviously more accessible for everyone.

One of the things I want to point out here that I think is pretty important that we get into actually in the next slide as well.

We are required to show four trees to plant four trees rather.

And I want to talk about the placement of these trees as part of this project that's actually happening and you know we know that the West Main streetscape plan shows

for trees obviously not in this location but also I think in somewhat problematically in a really different location with the curb line shifting in the future.

Two quick things I'll just point out here and then we can look at that slide I think Robert which is the next one is that we are actually also calling out the bike racks at this point on either ends of the building.

You can see on that west side I'm using a low retaining wall to hold that space to create that niche for the two bike racks and on the eastern side closer to the mini mart we have three bike racks there.

The last little part here is that we are exploring the form and the sort of permutations of the planters and how they work.

The curvilinear idea is a little bit of a nod to what's happening on the inside of the building and the lobby as we look to sort of soften some of the edges and the hardness.

And so we're trying to kind of bring that outside in a playful way and in a more sculptural way.

Robert, if you want to go to the next one.

Next slide.

Yeah, so this is an overlay plan, sorry, just the one before that.

This is the overlay plan that shows, and it's on my screen, I apologize, it's very light here, so I hope you can see this, but there are four dashed pink circles outboard of the existing curb line.

Those are the proposed West Main Street scape trees.

and quantity obviously works with what we've got and I think would just be a matter of coordination.

However, the curb line is nearly two feet outboard of where the existing curb line is right now on West Main which obviously

you know, lends us to believe that they're sort of redesigning the whole street, of course, with parking and different curb lines and curb cuts.

And so the extent to which we're actually going to be able to negotiate with that positioning at this point is kind of unknown.

So I'd like to, you know, just figure out exactly what the expectations are from the bar as how we're supposed to sort of negotiate and handle that at this point.

Yeah, so next one, Robert, now.

Thank you.

So here you can see an elevation.

You know, obviously, I think we all know this, the streetscape trees, the trees that we're proposing, the four trees, you know, those are really going to be what competes with the overall scale of the building.

And I think here in their placement, working a little bit more symmetrically side to side with each one centered on

a major sort of more column of the building.

Whereas the planters themselves bring the scale down to the pedestrian and the body and they work a little bit more to create a little bit of density against the building and with your own perception of it as you're walking by.

So as you look at it you can see sort of the courtyard space again to the left where I show you know the water basin and these two stone benches.

That's a much more open experience overall.

and then as you walk by the first sort of bay again, the first sort of true building, the forebay, that's more broken up with the planters and the trees.

Again, a more open sort of a center and last sort of third and then a planter on the end, nodding back to sort of the balance of the forebay building preceding it with then finally the open stair on the end and the retaining wall.

You know, I think it's important a little bit to talk about the water.

One of the things about this building that I think overall, and this gets a little bit again more towards the interior, but it does go from this very rectilinear

you know, clean facade outside.

And as you move your way into the building it becomes a really calm sort of curvilinear sort of meditative experience.

And I think what we're trying to do by the introduction of water is it's introduced just a small sound just a small nod to, you know, you've come home and it's a little bit more chill and a little bit more calm than what you just left on the street.

And we're trying to sort of set up that choreography from the moment you enter into the courtyard.

So the articulation of that right now really has a long way to go to get the design done, but the idea is that we would be introducing, you know, just a small amount of sound of water.

The planters themselves sort of, you know, similarly, I think if you look in the next slide, you can see

Some different precedents and as well, the illustrative elevations above, you know, we are playing with the form of the planter and if it might have a little bit more of a batter to the front face, how the bench itself could

you know, connect in or participate with the planter so that they overall are a little bit more sculptural but also feel like they can be occupied.

The plantings themselves, if you know me at all and some of you I do know and some of you I'll get to know but I am really into creating planting design as an important part of the piece.

You know, I think in this case, looking at the building and I would say the more Northern facade, we actually have a lot of opportunity to use plants as texture and form.

and really I think create some interesting pallets that you probably wouldn't see otherwise along the street.

So we'd be really looking to create some identity with making the planters really as big, you know, 14, 15 feet long in some cases as we can and really get some good planting in there.

I've got another image there of the paving precedent and just different ideas in scale.

I think the paving is going to be very calm, much like the building, but we'd really look to just maybe two different scales of paving to start to create a break between path and place.

And then the water basin on the end, again, just a very small nod to just a little something different on the street and introducing again that idea of calm as you come into the building as a resident.

So I think the next couple slides actually show this in the architectural sort of rendering, if we want to take a look at that.

Here, obviously, actually, it's nice to see the scale of the existing tree.

So we get a sense of kind of how big these trees might hopefully become over time.

You can see the courtyard and the planters kind of laid out there.

And then I think, Robert, the next one is just over the next.

Yeah, let's just go to the next one.

You guys can comment on that one, ask me any questions.

This is just obviously from the other end.

I think what's nice to see here is actually just the stair, the sort of two, you know, it's just a one foot grade change at that point.

But obviously it's something we need to deal with and didn't and wanted to really keep it as open as possible.

So really using a stair as a

but to come up to the retail promenade and then leaving that little bit of a space on the end for the bike racks.

One thing I would say just backing up about the bike racks because this might come up too is that I think it's really just been our experience looking at how they function at 600 right in the front of the building and right in front of the coffee and retail space and I think the takeaway there really is it's been kind of problematic to really put them in a place of egress

And so we are, as tricky as it kind of has been, we are looking to give them their own space, of course, and make them noticeable, but not necessarily put them in the courtyard where we're trying to create a more intimate experience.

The only thing I would add relative to what we're showing here is that we do intend to have options for greenery along the railings, the balcony railings.

Whether or not that is owner provided or tenant provided, we've got a long way to work through on that, but we do intend to add that bit of color and texture to the facade.

I'm happy to talk a little bit, if you all would like, I'll talk about the facade development and then just open it up entirely to you all, or if you'd prefer to address the landscape hardscape first, fine with that.

Why don't you finish up with your presentation.

Okay.

All right.

So

If you wouldn't mind, Robert, going back just a little bit.

As I mentioned earlier, not a great deal has changed.

Maybe one more.

Let's see.

Another slide back, perhaps.

Here we go.

Thank you.

So we're really looking for ways to quiet the building down.

As Anne noted, the interior lobby of the residential

entry is going to be very curvilinear.

And that is something that we are thinking may actually make its way out to the exterior of the building in a very quiet way next to the front door, but not ready to talk about that.

But in trying to quiet the building down, you'll see that we've begun thinking more about color and texture since our last conversation.

So the next slide, if you would, Robert,

does show how we're beginning to think about the particular elements of the facade, thinking that we are intending that the north, west, and east elevations will be brick.

We'll talk in a minute about the texture of the brick and the hyphens, as we discussed before, but thinking that the upper levels might be

We're thinking that the color of the building might be more of a heather brick or a lighter cream color.

It's not gonna be white.

It's not gonna be stark white.

We know that much.

We've got a ways to go.

We're exploring both brick that can be completely painted or brick that has enough color variety to it, soft color that we like it.

So we'll be back with more on that.

But I think what's important to note here is that we do believe that going with a different color on the retail level, at ground level,

helps with the building to delineate what's residential and what's commercial in terms of its scale, but it also

makes the engagement with the street different from the facade as it goes higher up in the residential area.

So we're liking this.

We don't quite yet know how we want to provide cover at the doors into the retail.

That'll be something that we continue to develop.

But you'll also see that perhaps that same darker color, which might be a metal, again,

We're working toward that, but that material would probably also introduce itself there on the left at the door into the residential lobby.

And you can begin to see the curve of that might express itself right in that small area.

So we're thinking upper windows and doors would be light in color, as close a match as we can get it to the brick material on the facade.

And darker down below.

So we would like to hear if this is an acceptable direction.

The railings that we see on the balconies will also probably be light in color.

We're trying to get away from an initial, some of our earlier designs showed a pretty stark contrast between

Black or dark bronze windows and doors and railings up above, which were similar to what's down below.

And it was becoming a little bit too checkerboard-y for our taste.

So as I say, trying to quiet it down.

That's the direction that we're thinking we're going to go with colors.

If we can keep going, Robert.

One thing I would like to note about the hyphens of the facade, and we've got an elevation further on in here, we are still imagining that the hyphens will be a different texture from the main blocks of the facade that move forward, both the four bay and the five bay.

We don't in any way think that the hyphens will be a different color, but

Perhaps a different texture brick, whether we model the surface or we do something with the control joints, we do want to make it different, subtly different.

They step back, obviously, and they step down a little bit, but we're again trying to keep things related but quietly different from one to the other.

I think here you can also begin to see that the lower level, the darker color on the retail level does do what a number of buildings on West Main Street does, and that is call a distinction between the retail level and the residential levels up above, including on the Holzinger building right there on the right.

There's a distinct line drawn there between the ground level engagement and the upper level residential.

If you wouldn't mind, Robert, the next slide.

Here we're beginning to talk about what the rear elevation will be.

This might be a little bit hard to make out, but on the lowest level, we have two-story studio lofts behind those tall double doors.

And so those are probably Juliet balconies.

that can be opened and will they speak to the height of that floor elevation?

As you all know, on West Main Street, we're supposed to have, I believe it's close to a 17 foot tall

first floor.

And so we're actually taking advantage of that to provide loft units on the back side of the building with living down below and a sleeping loft up above.

The next level up has large terraces off of the the units and also it includes the green roof that we're going to be incorporating in the project.

Green roof is down at this level and not on the rooftop.

The rooftop may or may not be occupied in the future.

We're not there yet.

But we think this is a great opportunity for us to bring the greenery, the softness of that, to the living units on the south side of the building.

So the dark, the bronze panels that you see,

Projecting perpendicular to the building are simply dividers between the units.

So for instance, on the second level, the far left, there are three bays of windows and doors that open onto that terrace before you get to the divider.

That's one complete unit.

And then after that, there's a two bay unit.

So that's what those are.

We need to provide privacy panels between units.

And then on the upper floor, as you can see, there are balconies off each of the living rooms of the various units.

The thing that I would like to point out here is that we would like to be able to stucco the upper part of the rear facade in this instance.

The building to the right, 600 West Main Street, is metal panels.

As most of you know, metal panels on the north, west, and east facade and on the south facade.

We turn the corners on the south facade with the metal panels, but then the entire rear of the building is stucco.

And we want to do the same thing here on the upper three floors of this building.

Quite frankly, it's a cost savings that we hope and anticipate will allow us to use brick for the rest of the building.

It's not unusual.

Rear buildings in any urban environment is different material.

Again, we would keep it quiet.

It wouldn't be distinctly different from the brick.

We'd come with whatever colors we're proposing in that regard.

And then on the next slide, I think Robert might be elevations.

Full elevations.

Here you can see the elevations as they stand currently, the hyphens that we've discussed in the previous discussion there in the middle and on the far right.

And then the next drawing, if you would, Robert.

Closer up.

So color coding only to say some different texture

on those hyphens and also on the residential block that sits back from the building, sorry, sits back from the street.

And then the next drawing should be the west elevation, I believe, or the south elevation.

As I described, the upper balconies on the top two floors, but then terraces on that third floor level just above the studio loft

balconies, and then the next elevation.

Trying to take the motif from the north facade on the west elevation there on the left, take the motif of the openings and sizes and continue that to give a bit of order to that facade, which is on the alley adjacent to the Holzinger building.

The windows are actually, the larger windows are all windows at the end of residential corridors.

And the two smaller windows there on the far left are within units to allow those to be third bedroom.

And then you see on the far right there the elevation facing the courtyard of 600 West Main Street and the

The mass of the building of 600 West Main is dashed in the very dark line there on the left of that drawing.

It's a very narrow courtyard, as you probably are aware.

At the end of that courtyard would be doors leading into the lobby of 612 West Main Street so that the tenants of both buildings will have access to

the courtyard and to the lobby, and if there is in the future a rooftop amenity on this building, the tenants of the adjacent building could enjoy it.

I think that might be the majority of it.

I think we've included some of our previous slides that showed ideas of ways that we can achieve different textures, different openings in the windows.

Maybe the next slide, Robert.

The, thank you, the image to the middle right image, the light facade is not unlike what we're discussing, perhaps lighter color for the brick, but a darker color for the retail openings and being different from what's happening on the residential up above.

I think that might be it.

Robin.

These were the previous drawings.

I don't think we need to go there unless we need to compare and contrast.

So as I mentioned in my notes, we'd appreciate any and all comments on the landscape hardscape, especially as it relates to what Anne is showing and importantly, noting that the tree locations relative to what is shown on the West Main Street streetscape project.

And then also any comments you have about the facade development, any of the elevations, the colors, materials we're contemplating at this point, and as well as stucco on the south side of the building.

So I'll leave it at that.

Thank you, Jeff.

Thank you, Anne.

Are there any questions from the public?

Tim?

And this might just be an omission, but the plan looks like there's actually a short, suitable retaining wall next to the bikes.

Is that right?

It is.

It's shown in the elevation.

It's very small.

It's hard to see.

All right.

Yeah, I don't have it matching the planters.

Right.

Oh, sorry.

That's what I was wondering.

Yeah.

That is the move-in door for the building for all of the tenants.

So yes, there will be a curb there.

I was thinking more, it just seemed like the resolution, it looked like in the plans there was something more of a wall there.

It was just a resolution question.

Yeah.

No, and one of the reasons too, because that, you know, initially we thought about wrapping the stair back to the corner so that you could really approach the building from that corner, but we needed the space for the bike racks.

It's also wrapping the stair didn't make a lot of sense because we would be inviting people to step into a private alley.

Just making sure I wasn't missing something.

Cool.

Duly noted, thank you.

Yeah, I wanted to ask Jeff if he could, if there's any further thinking about the differences in that brick texture, because the precedents that you showed at the end of the presentation still have quite a wide range.

The next step is going to be offering specific samples of what we're thinking.

And we're talking with our contractor and our suppliers of what those options are.

So I really can't brag at the moment.

This is a bit of a zoning question, but

Yeah.

And for me right now, my zoning department is the civil engineers because they are way more on top of dealing with this stuff all the time.

It is a requirement at the moment.

So we are having to live by it.

And I will say,

I think what Anne has done works well with the building.

We don't have the option of furthering the streetscape plan, because as she pointed out, we would be putting our trees in the street.

But also, if we go back to that slide, you will see that where Anne has placed the trees in no way precludes the parking, pull-off areas, anything in that plan that they're showing.

It would appear to me that we could keep those trees precisely where she's proposing them.

And suppose the streetscape plan doesn't go forward, which, you know, listening to council, it sounds like there's, you know, something might get cut.

Are the power lines a problem?

The power lines are a problem and we are going to deal with them during construction.

I don't know that we're going to be dealing with them permanently.

Okay.

Hopefully this is possible.

I would like your application to include your temporary power plans.

We can, we'll do that.

And just to be clear, when you say temporary,

Correct.

Okay, all right.

A permanent solution would be undergrounding them, and that's- Well, of course.

It's not going to happen as part of this project.

Yes, I have one.

The footprint for the planters, I'm trying to understand the significance of this unusual truncated circle shape.

I'm hearing something about it.

Yes, well, Anne can speak to the shape on the exterior and the interior of the building.

The lobby is actually going to be a very curvilinear series of planes, few if any hard angles.

And we're trying to bring that into the residential hallways as a part of the design, a very soft and sinuous, I would call it.

Happy to share images of that with you all.

No, that was definitely a starting point.

And then I think we liked the idea as well that the planters just became a little bit more sculptural as part of the sort of experience of being on the sidewalk.

And I think lastly, especially the two that are in the forebay, the space between them still feels like inside and kind of outside.

So I felt like as a way to kind of come into the building and that retail section

The planters don't necessarily have a front or a back or they're softened in that way.

Yeah, I think for certain the idea is that they might just sort of be captured by them and see something different.

I think there's a way that they interact with the building too, because obviously it's just sort of brick, much more orthogonal, sort of rectilinear nature.

Okay, thank you.

Yeah, no, I think that's great.

And I mean, I think we're still working through it too, and what the final shapes will be.

Do they match the material of the window frames on the first floor level?

Or is that just, they kind of look like they might?

I think for me it's definitely a detailed question at this point that I'm not totally clear on because I have to admit that Jeff and I have to have those conversations, but I think we would look to create some continuity for sure.

I will say also that one of the things that we've talked about with the shape of the planters is I think they're softer, they're a little bit more inviting than all the rectilinear planters we all know in our lives.

I have a question for Jeff.

I can't say.

I don't know for sure, Cheri, which of those it would be.

My preference would be stucco, but it might end up being thesis.

Yes.

I know, I know.

That pronunciation is exactly my sentiment.

I do want to, I say this all the time and I apologize, but I just want to make the point that building codes require continuous exterior insulation on commercial buildings.

So in general, when we see the word stucco, it's EFS.

We just need to, and I don't know if there's, I don't know if you can detail it a different way, but I think we just, that's something that needs to be fixed in our guidelines that it's, there is no stucco anymore unless it's on just on concrete.

You can, but it gets very expensive.

And the real difficulty with EIFS is sort of the hollowness.

When you tap on it, you can get a variety of finishes.

I think we were very successful at 600 West Main on getting finishes on the EIFS that does not look like your standard EIFS.

And I think it's as much a matter of the intent of the architect and the ability of the installers to achieve something that's not just slathered on icing that we see everywhere.

That will definitely be a part of what we do.

It's important that we get that surface right for the tenants of the building as much as anything else, since they're out there on their balconies.

Well, I don't see any more questions, so we can always ask questions during discussion.

Are there any comments from the public?

All right.

People can say whatever or can go off on whatever subject they like, but I think it would be a good idea to probably follow, at least start with Jeff's questions and then move on from there if you want to elaborate.

So the landscape would be the first part.

I'll jump in.

I really like the development of the site plan and the landscape.

come especially compared to where it was previously where the planters really felt like they were kind of armoring the building or maybe having a very distinct zonation or between the public sidewalk and the walk in front of the retail spaces.

I like the way that I think that that low step will get used a lot.

It will be a piece of street furniture and it would be a more graceful way to make that delineation more subtle.

I like the shape of the planters for a couple of reasons.

One is I think that it really does facilitate a lot more east-west movement along the facade of the building.

and at the same time gets a longer amount of planting area in proportion to the building.

I will say though that I do think because maybe perhaps the thinness of the wall and the way that they're rendered in the plan, they do feel a little bit inconsequential or a little bit more like street furniture.

And so there's maybe a balance there.

I'm not sure if they either could get just a little bit larger, just beef up just a bit more to have a relationship to this building or there could be another one added or seems like they're just a little bit, feeling a little bit sparse currently.

But I like the tactic and I like the materiality and the way that they'd be deployed.

I and I think the material of them to being a little bit more of a street furniture and not feeling like a constructed built in feature might lend themselves to feeling a little bit more like almost quasi movable part of the street and maybe

Maybe alleviate some of the fear that Jody might have expressed about whether they really feel like they're a part of the public landscape or not.

Related to the trees, this is my personal opinion is that if we wait for the city to figure out West Main, we'll still be waiting.

I applaud the tactic to go ahead and put the trees in

at the location that works best for this building and at a scale that also works best for the street.

I would hope that you'd consider species that will operate at that street tree scale and really create a high canopy would make for really excellent public space below.

and when the West Main Street project happens in about 30 years, then they'll work around these trees.

So the only thing I would note about that is as you hopefully can be thinking about larger trees is to make certain in the early planning that ample soil volumes

are provided so that we really can get the kind of size and scale of tree that you would appreciate there.

I got a quick question that related to what Breck just asked.

Where's the power line?

Yeah.

I mean, they can and they have, and they do.

I will say I'm loath to go on record.

I'm not going on record with saying it, but I am saying we are talking with Dominion about the possibility of locating the power lines under the sidewalk.

It's in everyone's best interest if we can do it.

We all know that Dominion moves at its own pace and its own schedule as well.

So we are trying and we're hoping we can do it.

I hesitate to mention it.

We don't want it held against us in the future.

But having to put those lines back at 600 West Main just seemed inane.

It might actually help get the West Main Street project happening.

It's one more budget item that they can remove.

If we're talking about the landscaping first, I'm going to jump in next.

I agree with Breck about the planters.

I mean, I could see, I like the one with the seat in it.

I could actually see just making that a standard feature for all three of them.

The other thing I could see doing is, you know, they work great in plan, but in elevation, other than, you know, extending the plantable area, as Breck said, along the length of the building,

It seems to me you could play with the elevation of the edge, you know, where it could, you know, be like a cone slice or something like that, where it has some more dynamic role to play at a 3D level and isn't just simply, I mean, I know it's got plants in it, but there'll be times a year where they're not doing much, but if they even, you know, if it has a wandering edge or it drives up one side, you know, where they

Their playfulness is apparent not just in plan but in elevation and section.

And I think putting the trees there is great.

I just fear for dominion's behavior.

I'm going to agree with what's been said so far.

I do think, well, except that I want to see, you know, yeah, very tall, beautiful canopy trees on West Main, but if the power lines end up needing to stay, I think the zelkova have done a good job of coexisting.

So something of that scale, I think, would be appropriate if you keep the power lines.

But yeah, that's,

My other concern, I've brought this up.

So for the code building, they have sworn to me, they have promised to me that we're not going to end up with a bunch of yellow tape on all the edges of all the stair treads.

I don't know if it's our zoning code or somewhere

Wedge steps are not allowed, and when they show up, they end up becoming tripping hazards.

Yeah, that's a great point.

I think that retaining wall edge actually helps alleviate that issue.

Sort of.

Yeah, something to think about.

I don't recall that being a problem at the dairy market.

aside, did they end up having to put that on there?

So they got through that.

Then maybe, yeah, I'm remembering something old.

But I just want to make sure that that doesn't become a problem.

And I assume, I mean, you're going to have handrails that are going to show up, I guess, to consider how those are placed.

I concur with most of what I've heard so far.

The only thing that I almost swallowed my tongue when Carl said something about zelkovia, I would rather see that scale, but in a more native tree or one that's on the street tree list that the tree commission puts out.

Sorry, Jody.

If there's nothing else on the landscape, and we can always come back to that, but the other question from Jeff was to look at the elevations.

Well, I'd like to step in about the north elevation.

because Robert, could you go to page 10 please of the architect's drawings?

That one, I'm sorry, page nine.

This looks better to me than what I'm hearing it is what's actually meant.

in that the recessed planes of the hyphens are darker and obviously more recessed, but the darkness is a symbol just to indicate some kind of texture.

And what I'm hearing is that the texture that's desired at this point is subtle and not distinctive.

and I would like I would rather I prefer to see something that's more distinctive in the difference because I think this reads

as we had intended or we had stated all along that we're trying to mimic the scale of the individual buildings that are the historic buildings that are still left on this part of West Main and that were here originally.

So I have a follow up to that actually.

It seems to me like one of your end elevations, which are quite asymmetrical, and as a result seem to have a lot of surface development.

What page is that?

Probably 11.

Yeah.

There's a sort of a playfulness in there, and it also harkens back to some of those images you showed us from

some of those urban buildings with the multiple planes.

I can't remember, let's see, your precedent images on page 13.

I wonder if you really start playing with the level of detail in there so that it actually catches more shadow, is more idiosyncratic and plays basically

a different architectonic game than the quieter, very rectilinear facade that that possibly combined with darker materials, but also the fact that we attach more shade and shadow and all that kind of stuff.

I think you have some clues in that east elevation to my mind that might enliven and at the same time distinguish those punchbacks.

And then while we're on that subject, I'd like to just quick slide over to the top section of the residential block on the north side.

I could see doing that in a completely different like glass where it's much more of a, you know, your belt line for your parapet runs around and that whole upper piece reads as something that is truly set back and is

perhaps much more modern and translucent.

But I think that would, again, kind of help the read of the scale and also not sort of, in a way, the brick on top of that feels a little heavy to me.

And then I'll slide around to the very back.

I could see putting some, if you put some brise soleil over the upper band of balconies, that starts reading as more porch-like and I think softens that facade a bit on the south side.

And, you know, that would start to break it up vertically without really a great deal of, you know, you wouldn't be having to modulate surfaces or anything, but it would give you a scale breakdown because I would start, those would start to read as sort of somewhat tower-like.

I too am a little concerned about the subtlety and the thinness of the plane of the north elevation.

It's not so much the elevation, but more the plan and the perspective views that would come from it.

Concerned because I think almost every view from a pedestrian's point of view or from driving down the road, that this is really gonna look like a long building because the plan changes are so subtle.

I think there's a lot of, I think that as mentioned in the last meeting, the addition of those balcony railing, stepping that height down, the introduction of some different texture are good, are some good techniques, but it's really riding on that line of,

of whether this is meeting that SUP recommendation that the mask is breaking down.

So it might be useful to include some more oblique perspectives in the package in the future.

I think it's a little, that's how this building will mostly be seen

And if the intention is to truly have the brick and the textured brick very so similar in color, I wonder if a more radical technique like making one of the bays, the textured brick might be worth considering.

Any other thoughts from anyone?

Are we all OK with the change to

Stucco, or well, Ephis at the back.

That needs to be saved.

I think there needs to be a five second blank in the video recording of this.

You just said it for us.

Only after you did.

Jeff, you incited it.

Are we all still on board?

The massing is still, I guess there seems to be some desire for more three-dimensionality in the front facade.

But other than that, is the massing, we're still, we're good with this?

I like the idea of doing something to make that top appear different because that would actually drive that whole block down lower and it wouldn't feel quite all the piece.

And then where there's a much more intensive detail in development and or some darker treatment of the, to me it's more like the main facade so quiet and soft that maybe there's just a much more intensive brick detail and idiosyncratic treatment of those drop

I read it as a material.

I think it's an interesting idea.

Any other concerns or, Jeff or Ann, any additional questions for us?

Or did we miss anything?

I think that was great feedback from me.

Yes.

Yeah.

I thank you all very much.

I realize this is a little bit of a long drawn out process, but hopefully by the time we get to the approval, it's a very brief meeting.

So for us, it feels productive and informative.

I'll quickly digress.

Where do you stand?

We've got to get there.

We just have to make the final adjustment.

I hope to do that next week.

So we will have that done.

Thank you, Jeff, for your willingness to continue to engage with us.

All right.

Thank you all very, very much.

And oh, no, I have to formally move or formally request a deferral.

I move to accept the deferral.

I will just call a vote really quick.

Okay.

Mr. Schwartz?

Yes.

Mr. Moore?

I saw one thumbs up.

Yeah.

I need a break.

All right.

OK.

So reconvene at 7.25 or 7.30?

Let's go for 7.25.

Everyone OK with that?

Five minutes?

I have no idea.

It's just one of the backgrounds that they set up for us on UVA Zoom.

Looks better than my bedroom.

It might be.

Hey, how are you?

Am I, am I eating in your ear?

I thought I muted.

Oh, that's what that is.

It's a lot going on.

I, you know, hopefully there's going to be

When we come out of this, whatever the heck it is, there's going to be lots of construction happening.

There is lots of construction happening.

I know I walked yesterday and just, you know, I went in the office and I was going to print the awards.

All right.

So we have to make a commitment and walk them over to your place and say, here, sign them and then get them to me and whatever.

And but it was

was not to be, just the, as you know, it's always the little things.

It's always the poo coming up from the cellar, right?

What happened?

What was the, I mean, I had almost the same exact thing happen in my house.

Fortunately, it didn't reach the backup point.

Oh, yeah.

I don't want to talk about that on TV.

Yeah, because when they, because that was, that was, God,

yeah three and a half years ago when you know the guy came out yeah he had to dig up my whole front yard oh and uh i know i told you that story because we always had rats coming and going out of this hole my neighbor and i would always pour sand down the hole oh i mean this is like over the last 20 years you know like you know ah damn rats you know you just became our fun thing to do hey i'm going to Lowe's get a bag of sand we'll pour it down the hole um well just so happened that the hole went to the sewer line and you know

and so the guy dug up my whole front yard and all this stuff he's like man I don't know what's going on it's like this rocks and sand in there and I'm like that rat trap's a lot cheaper Jeff well it was down there Jeff yeah a little but you know for 20 years I thought I was sticking to the rats I got one last week man I get them and I

I mean, I'll get, one always gets in the house and you can always, I mean, you can just hear it and you just get to the point you're like, you know, I don't know what to do.

So at my office, you know, we like to say there were squirrels in the ceiling.

Squirrels don't run up and down in there.

So yeah, it's been, you know, I've done my best.

You know, people have chickens.

I mean, everybody composts.

It's just the way it is.

But as long as it's not a snake, you know, that's sort of my thing.

We have some big snakes downtown.

Yeah, I know, I know.

Someone is watching this on Facebook right now in absolute terror.

Now, as you know, I always say, I don't... It's historic character.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't mind snakes.

I just don't want to see the end of it, you know.

I, you know, it's part of the old house.

But yeah, you can tell when it's a rat or a mouse that's died because, you know, a mouse is like three or four days and a rat stinks for like two or three weeks.

Perfect bait.

I mean, I've tried everything, you know, and then one got into my duct work.

I don't know what happened.

I was like, oh, Craig's going to die in there.

I'll never find him.

That would be awful.

You know, I've tried to be, yeah, she's the, I've got her place up on the hill.

Yeah.

I mean, everybody says, I'll give you a cat.

And it's like, and the funny thing is when we bought the house, we moved in or we actually signed on it on Halloween, 1998.

And I had a huge party.

I don't know, Cheri was probably, I think everyone in North downtown came, but I got under the house and found a,

just this desiccated mummified cat and pulled it out, put it on the front porch, put a candle next to it.

And the woman that sold me the house goes, ah, that's where it went.

All right, Jody Breck, can you hear me?

Turn your mic on so we can start.

Was it flat?

You know what?

I lost track of it.

Everyone's back.

Unpost yourself.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

We do let ghost stories in this town.

I think there's one in Jennifer Blakely's house, though.

Actually, somebody did a really good job of estimating our agenda tonight for the Times.

So let's maybe we can continue to stay on track.

I do want to say before anything, Jennifer, I got to check in the mail.

So thank you very much.

Well, good.

The U.S.

Postal Service.

Jeff, don't post it yourself.

What's that?

That's good.

Unpost it myself, yeah.

Sorry.

See, I'm looking at everybody else except myself, and there I am.

OK.

So what we have before us is a COA request for 636 Park Street.

This is in the North Downtown ADC District.

This is a 1950s

colonial revival style home that was constructed in 1950 by a gentleman named Harry Munson.

This is a request before you to install a new fence around the perimeter of the property and it'll be set behind an existing hedge that's there.

Staff, we didn't find any issues with it and recommended approval.

But I know with fences and particularly along an arterial or the primary road like we have with Park Street, I wanted to bring it to the BAR.

And so I did not recommend it for a consent agenda.

But again, we saw no issues with this.

I hand it over to you all, and any questions for me?

Okay.

My screen's over here, so if it looks like I'm not looking at you, I am.

But is it okay if I share my screen, I can show you a photo?

Yep.

Jennifer, so apparently I was talking with our communications guy earlier, and the city's policy is just to let hosts and co-hosts share their screen.

Okay, and I can hold them up too, but I don't know if you can see them.

Yeah, so if they go to the next page of that.

Okay, yes.

So it's hard to see because it's a bit distorted, but the one on the left, the wood fence, is the one we prefer for a few reasons.

One, we plan on eventually doing something to our backyard and we want a private fence in our backyards.

We would like those two fences to match.

This fence, the photo that you showed of our house, the front of our house, is a really old one.

That's when the box was there.

I don't know if you've driven by our house recently, but we have skip laurels out that are probably 14 feet high.

So the fence is not really going to be visible.

Our neighbor next door at, let's see, there's his 632.

I don't know if you can see that's pretty important.

Yeah, so that guy has a wooden fence exactly like this.

The apartment two doors down has a wooden fence.

It's a more modern wooden fence.

They use it as privacy for their patios.

And then on the corner of Park and Farish, they also have a wood fence.

There's technically wooden stone, which is a little more fancy, but we really are hoping

For many reasons, we would prefer the look of the wood.

Well, thank you.

Are there any questions from the public?

All right.

That's easy.

So Jeff, when you said you approve this, your staff report says you prefer the metal.

Is that correct?

Or are you saying that you would recommend approval of the six foot wooden privacy fence?

Four foot.

Oh, four foot.

I'm not throwing Robert under the bus here, but he worked on this.

Well, I'm referring to what you just said.

You caught me fuzzing out here.

Thank you.

And there was, you know, we had discussed this when I talked early on with Jennifer, that these are set behind those, that hedge and it has grown.

It's, I mean, I think those things shot up out of there.

So there is a good screen.

And I had offered that as a condition that BAR might request that should those be removed for whatever reason, then that sort

changes how this fence might be viewed in whatever form it takes.

But that was one of the things that I felt was a mitigating factor to what they selected.

And I had kind of put in my submittal that if for some reason we have a skip laurel that dies, we will immediately replace it.

We really do love them.

We love it for the privacy.

It kind of tamps down the noise from Park Street.

It is.

They have told me that you have to leave it for, I don't know, the number of weeks, but I think four to six weeks until you paint it so that it gets used to the environment.

But yes, the intention is to paint it.

I would like to just paint it the color of our siding.

We have siding that's above it and in the back of the house.

Can I ask Jennifer, we were in

Since we weren't able to see the examples, but you mentioned several other wooden fence examples in the vicinity.

Are any of those in the front yard?

Could you do that?

Two of them are.

I don't know if this helps at all.

So can you see that fence right there?

Sorry, I can't hold it up very well.

I just had shoulder surgeries.

So that's my next door neighbor's fence.

But that's not the front yard on the street.

It's in the front yard, but it's not on the street side.

It's on the street side, but it's still in the front yard.

Yeah.

I just, yeah, you can see it there to the right.

So that's the white.

Yep.

So that guy right there matches.

And then you can see how tall our bushes are.

I mean, the other thing is that the metal is double the cost.

There is a wood picket fence at approximately 717 Park.

Yeah.

I'm not familiar with that property.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I thought someone had Google Street view up.

It's further north.

It's a new house on the corner of, what's this street?

Lions Court.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it undulates, for lack of a better word.

They put it out just a little while ago.

Yeah, there.

Yeah.

That looks about three.

Yeah.

It's not four.

So I think since there's no public,

Let's just move into discussion.

We can keep asking questions.

I bet Skip Laurel, it gets us in trouble because it actually violates our guidelines and a lot of people use it as a excuse to put in their own shrubs that are more than four feet tall on the sidewalk.

We've had a number of properties come to us asking you to put in a privacy screen right on the street.

We actually got that approved through you guys to put that up.

And they were tiny.

I'm looking at the picture from 2012 on Google Street View and yeah, they're tiny.

They're teensy, yeah.

So that's really common in North downtown.

Jennifer, I haven't met you.

And I've lived in the neighborhood for almost 25 years.

I'll embarrass myself, but I do appreciate everything you guys have done with that house because I remember two owners ago, what it looked like and you put the shutters on and

And that front yard always was just not right.

And once you put the skip laurel in it really, I mean, it really looks great.

I mean, everything you've done and I would almost say it's restoring the house.

I don't think you've done anything that's not in keeping with the character of the house, but you certainly made it really attractive.

I love that little widow's walk or whatever it's called, the balcony.

And you've shaped that up a little bit.

It was in bad shape.

So.

My problem is that I don't really see, first of all, our guidelines at which we're supposed to follow at 11 on new fences says privacy fences may be appropriate inside yards or rear yards were not visible from the street, which sort of presumes that privacy fences shouldn't be on

on primary streets.

And you've got two primary streets, unfortunately.

I don't really see any other privacy defenses up and down park at all, which would prohibit somebody at street level from seeing a house.

And I'm not saying there isn't a lot of landscaping.

And depending on Topo, there are some stone walls where you wouldn't necessarily see it standing on the sidewalk, but you'd see it across the street.

You know, the engagement of our neighborhood with each other is what makes North Downtown super special.

And the fact that, you know, I know Jeff and have known him for a while and I know my neighbors and and the privacy fence is really antithetical, not just in our guidelines, but also I think in the way that this neighborhood has developed.

There are a good many

metal fences, but you can see right through the structure.

They don't really act as privacy fences.

But Treacle's house is another one that wasn't mentioned.

It doesn't go around the periphery.

He was given, he tells the story, he's given the fences as compensation for legal services and, you know, finally got you guys to approve it because they were free and he thought they were cool.

And I don't know, from some junkyard in the county, but he wanted to put them up and

but we really just don't have fences that really wall off the street engagement.

And that would be around the periphery of the property.

Like you're right, the next door neighbor has a fence that's back at the end of their driveway and the park lane apartments have fences that are not in the front yard and that screen from within the complex.

But I just, I can't support the wooden privacy fence.

I certainly could support a four foot metal fence.

And I'm sorry to say that I'm your neighbor and I feel this way, but I think our guidelines are pretty clear.

Yeah, the guidelines say side or rear yard.

So I would think you could use it on the rear yard if there's any way to differentiate.

And I haven't walked down Evergreen recently.

We don't really have a view here.

And it wasn't really clear whether you wanted it all around

Just the front yard.

We have a puppy.

We got a puppy during a pandemic.

I saw your puppy.

So cute.

So we need a fence to fence him in.

I don't even want a fence, but this is where this has all happened is that we have a puppy.

and yeah, so you're right at the busy street there too.

Right.

And we looked at doing electric, like an electric fence, but our vet said with a lab, like no dice, they'll escape.

And then that's not good.

Can I ask, so, well, when we talk about a privacy fence, I mean, I, in my mind, mind's eye is something, you know, six, eight feet tall and solid and,

So not necessarily wood being, I mean, more the height and the enclosure of it.

I think we need to discuss this and see if everyone agrees with Cheri.

For the definition of privacy fence, Jeff, I agree with you.

but whether it's, I mean, I think, yeah, we need to see what everyone thinks as far as, so all, you know, it's, our guideline does say use materials that relate to materials in the neighborhood, take cues from nearby historic fences and walls.

So it is true that the majority of the fences, at least the historic ones, are metal.

Well, I would just also add in relationship to would our guidelines really speak about wood picket fences, not wood sort of opaque fences or something, unless it's privacy fence.

And I guess to that end, I definitely agree with Cheri.

I think that the metal fence is consistent and almost a neighborhood-defining feature related to the landscapes along Park Street.

But just remember, Brecht, this is on a corner.

Yeah.

Even so, I think that the character of the street changes.

I agree with Greg.

I think defense definition changes at the plane of the front of the house.

So we're clear.

And four feet is just an arbitrary number.

Like, if it gets shorter, is that better?

Or if there's a different version of a wood fence?

I was just going to say, I think that Brecht's point, you know, more of a picket-style fence that has some perforation to it is a little, would be more acceptable in the front, in my opinion.

It's not, it gets away from being a privacy fence.

It's a solid plane.

So in general, I kind of agree with Brecht and Cheri in terms of

I do agree the iron fence would look better and stay in character of the neighborhood for the front yard.

And I also agree that a privacy fence, possibly even a taller one for the rear yard would be appropriate.

I agree with James, he's right.

I'm sorry, Ron.

I spoke over you.

I agree with James.

A picket fence would work.

Yeah, although the example of the one down the street with the boards is still a little too opaque.

And yet would restrain a dog, right?

So I guess if I, I'll talk to my husband, sorry, swing soccer, and see about the metal versus picket.

But if we go metal, four feet, is it okay?

Let's go back.

Did you, if you go down, I know the same fence that Chris put in next door to you.

And if you go down to the corner of Farish and Park Valentine House, they just did a metal railing on the back of that.

And I watched, you know, I saw my guys, the guys would have maybe a day or two.

It kind of went right in.

So I don't know what the cost of that was.

I'm trying to find the information to send you that if that helps.

Jeff, there's also one on third, the stone halls on third street or the park plaza and confusion corners, I call it.

It's an old stone.

They're two stone properties.

But the one on the corner has a picket fence.

It also has like a trellis above the entryway.

But it's pretty wide.

They painted it in white.

I mean really aren't many folks, there aren't many examples in our neighborhood where people have fences in front yards.

Definitely not privacy or opaque or not see-through, but even that picket fence, it's a very, very small yard.

It's almost like too much fence for, you know, four square feet.

But that might be one that Jennifer wants to look at.

Well, I was thinking of this one and then I was thinking of one.

Yeah, that's the one behind me.

That's a smaller one.

Interestingly, in the 1980s, my house had that fence there.

We can all go through and drive through Charlottesville, but the other wood fence we did was, I can't remember the gentleman's name up there.

If you take a left here at Hedge, go to the top of the street up on Park.

We proved that a couple of years ago.

I mean, 443, then up ahead, we have a couple of picket fences, just for the record, right?

I couldn't hear you, Tim.

Yeah, I do think it's important to note, distinguish a little bit.

Park Street's a little bit different than some of those other streets.

I mean, there's a different

Scale of the house, it's a different approach into the city.

This is a pretty attractive fence, I would say.

I'm not pushing this one.

I'm just saying that picket one, and this is all wood.

It's very attractive.

And I think it would definitely keep a dog out maybe with a little bit more height if it's a lab.

But it doesn't unengage the house.

You feel like you still see the house.

They see us.

You go by.

What's the, what house number is that?

That's on hedge.

It's third street.

Yeah, third street.

Oh, I see, that's top.

So would either this style or the metal style be okay or no?

I'm going to offer that I would be willing to appraise a metal fence or a wood picket fence that is you know of a you know somewhat transparent that allows some visibility through it.

No more than four feet, right?

Okay.

So I just had a quick question.

I mean, if there's a four foot fence, but the other question I have is,

There's not a ton of room, I will tell you.

Right, short of cutting the skip laurel down.

I think it simplifies things if it goes behind.

I was just going to say that my one comment about a wood fence is that

You know, the house is a newer house.

It doesn't have the same level of detail as a lot of the older houses do, but it does have that porch with the, it has picket top and bottom.

And so this is going to go to Jeff, but I think when we say picket, we're, you know, we've offered some

For me, that's too far to not know what this fence is.

My proposal would be to approve a metal fence.

Do I want to withdraw it?

I'll make the motion, yeah.

That's because we have two motions on the floor.

So I want to know who would be willing to approve a

A metal fence or a picket fence, just a stipulation that both fences are under four feet and that the picket fence would be not fully opaque.

We can set some level of transparency if we want.

So Cheri, myself, Ron, were you a yes?

OK, let me, anyone got a picture up?

I just glanced at it.

And what bothers me about the way you phrased that, Carl, is that you say mostly

Not mostly opaque.

I would say mostly not opaque.

Right.

Mostly transparent.

I agree and I like that.

It's a railing design versus a fence design, which might

they may find costly.

If we want to hem them in on that, we can.

Yeah, the railing on the balcony is a very tight picket, or whatever one calls it.

I mean, it would definitely keep a dog out of there.

If you look at the picture in our packet, it's page 92.

I feel like this,

They'd match the spacing and size of the pickets and call it a day.

And then they're applied to the back of a rail, they go past it.

It's built like a traditional picket fence, but you're picking up on the scale of the railing.

Yes, so I'm guessing I'd have to have like a top cap and a bottom cap just to make it, I've got to pull up the picture of 443rd as well just to look at that just while I have it in my head, but yes I do and I can send, I mean I can send, I can send you guys, I can send Jeff photos once I talk to my husband after this.

I'm just pulling this up, Third Street Northeast, just to look at this again.

But yes, I'm fine with either of those options, either the picket that's similar to our railing above our porch or the metal.

Okay.

All right.

I'm trying to help you out, but I feel like we're, I don't want to hit you in at the same time with

OK, I can try, or if anyone else wants to give that a try, I will give it a try.

I miss making motions.

All right, so having considered the standards set forth in the city code, including the ADC district design guidelines, I move to find the proposed fence at 636 Park Street

satisfies the BARS criteria as compatible with this property and other properties in North Downtown AGC District.

And the BAR approves either a metal fence per the application or a wood picket fence to be painted, both fences to be under four feet tall.

OK, thank you very much.

I will call a vote.

Mr. Zehmer.

Aye.

Mr. Schwartz.

Yes.

Mr. McClure.

Ms.

Mr. Lehendro.

Aye.

And Mr. Gastinger.

Sorry, no.

Thank you.

Thank you, Jennifer.

Okay.

Thank you guys for your time.

Jennifer, I'm going to send you some information here.

The, the, the, what was his name?

Seth Lisky is 534 Park street.

And, and it was, he's got in here at least what he showed me.

So, you know, I don't know, given the speed with which they put that up, um,

It's, I don't know.

Thanks, guys.

You too.

You too.

So regarding the next application, the applicant isn't here, and I hadn't heard anything from them.

Yeah, and I, you know, I just, yes, this is one that we circulated and there was general, I mean, general support for it.

I just felt like it was, I didn't put it on consent just because it was on the corner painting brick and I felt like, you know, maybe we should

I would be willing to give this one a try without the applicant.

Is everyone else OK with that?

OK.

Yes.

See where it goes.

So do we need a staff report?

I'm sorry.

I'm still thinking.

I got too many things.

Now I'm trying to figure out which thing to click to get back to you guys.

By the way, you see this gigantic, well, can't, I do have a disk monitor bigger than a wide screen TV, so that is helping with the, all right, folks.

I don't know how anyone can do this without two screens.

I don't know how I'm doing it with,

being in my house for the last 12 months, but for 11 months, so.

We are hitting that, just think of it, we've all gone through a pandemic together.

And no one's been voted off the island yet.

We're not through this yet, Jeff.

Okay, this is a COA request for 1331 West Main Street,

which is actually in the West Main Street, ADC district, extends down to the corner there.

This is a circa 1965 building.

I knew it as Cafe Europa when I came to grad school.

It's now the Fig Restaurant.

Yes, it was.