Human Rights Commission Work Session Meeting   4/4/2024

Thank you, Lily.

Grab a group of us.

All right.

Because it's a whole new thing.

Good evening, everyone, and those that are watching and those that are present with us on Zoom.

We all do the right solution, and we're going to get started with our call to order.

So, hey, it is 6-1, so we're going to start a little late, but we're trying to get all of our technical things together to make sure anybody that's watching us virtually, as well as our team,

The director is away from his parents, which he should be on his vacation.

He just can't be out of school.

Happy.

Happy to do that.

So, Ernest.

And I think we got a message that Wolfgang is not well and was going to try to participate virtually but could not do that.

So we wish them a speedy recovery.

Mary?

I'm here.

And I can't see everybody but Charley.

Okay, and I just heard from Angela, she also can't join us this evening, taking care of a family member.

So, wishing them well as well.

Okay, thank you.

Appreciate the help.

Okay.

Here.

Okay, thank you all.

So yeah.

Act.

Act.

Act.

Act.

Act.

Act.

Act.

on the 5th and the 7th will assist you.

If you are, yeah, so that's what we'll be having difficulties participating virtually.

For matters of the public, if you are a webinar, if you're here virtually and would like to

say something, attend public comment time, you can raise your hand, raise your hand on the webinar, and if you're on the phone, you can use star now, okay?

We have members here, does anybody have anything they would like to ask us now?

Thank you for your presence.

Do we have anyone online?

So thanks for that, Ernest.

Let's let's get this thing up on the screen and

This is where we'll see how the tech works.

We can do a screen share.

We're going to pull up that document that we started on during our annual meeting.

So how's that looking?

Looks good, bud.

OK, I'm going to scroll it down here because I'm kind of in the middle of it because I was looking at it earlier.

So I think

Where we were at with this, you all had identified housing as a primary focus area.

And then as kind of two aspects of housing, we talked about homelessness and systemic barriers, and then identified those specific things to maybe target in the work ahead.

And then looking down here,

noted some secondary focus areas specifically for legislative recommendations, ally safe space training for LGBTQ plus members of the community.

And then also talking about what we could do with regard to reparations.

So those are secondary focus areas.

We got to where we were starting to

Lay out some of the goals and how they aligned to the Human Rights Ordinance and if anybody has questions about what those alignments are we can talk about those again but fairly easy to understand there's a section in the ordinance

that lays out the duties and responsibilities for the commission.

And we just want to make sure that what we're doing is aligning with those.

And so we list them behind each of our goals as we put them in there.

Where it's highlighted is where we stopped last time in laying out goals.

And we can review those again if you'd like.

I'm just going to scroll down just to show you where we left off down here.

As we were putting together our goals, we started laying out the calendar for the year, your calendar of meetings and other actions between the meetings so that you could get the work done and achieve the goals that you had proposed above.

We were down into July, as I recall, a bit.

Again, that's sort of more dictated by what we put up here in the top.

So sorry to hopefully not give you too much seasickness by my scrolling around.

But if you'd like to, I think we can see, we can kind of see all of our goals in one place on this screen.

So hopefully that's helpful.

Oh, is that Catherine that just came in?

Welcome Catherine.

The big head on the screen sees all.

Okay, so there's your introduction.

I think the big thing now is continuing to carve out our dates and making sure that we have things in our calendar and in our awareness of when things need to get done so that we're not behind.

They said we want to get to city council.

So I think the way we did things last year with having those legislative priorities to them early, got good response with them since we had that meeting in early January.

So I think that's something we want to make sure we continue to do as well as I think we talked about wanting to try to do something outreach-wise.

as well, because we've done a couple of those the last couple of years.

So we need to try to figure out what we want to do outreach wise, maybe who we want to bring in to talk to us.

And what else?

That's a lot.

Yeah, that's a lot.

Let's see, we're talking about date-wise, kind of that goal that's right above the highlighted goal, the suggested highlighted goal, to plan with a public panel with experts in housing during the June 6th, 2024 work session.

And I'm gonna, again, sorry for the cumbersomeness of scrolling up and down, but I do, oh, I'm getting a Teams message, probably with regard to the delay.

Ah, okay, I will try to speak slowly.

If you miss anything, I'm happy to repeat.

Thanks, Lily.

So, I think we put this on our calendar already for the 6-6 work session.

Expert panel, the focus area was we listed it as legislative priorities and

In this case, what we're saying is it's experts in housing and homelessness, right?

Yeah, and I already tentatively reserved this same space.

Now that we're experts with Carver Rec, we'll just hold it here and then we'll be sure that we have parking and all that.

Yeah, my only concern is making sure that everything is in place so we don't have the technical issues

And I don't know if there's anything else going on city council wise that night that we may, you know, have to share tech people, communications.

That makes sense.

And maybe what we can do as a team, by which I mean OHR team and communications, maybe we can talk with the Carver Rec folks and just do a dry run, just make sure that we can

We have all the things set up and make sure it works like a day in advance or something like that.

Some afternoon we can go down there and just test all the systems again.

Now that we have some systems in place that seem to be working currently.

I agree.

Just want to make sure I have enough mics or whatever else we need in the place and everybody's end.

That sounds good.

Yeah.

Cool.

That's a great thing.

Looking at the calendar as well, I'm just seeing things that I know we probably need to adjust.

The COYA FOIA VPR training, that's the Freedom of Information Act, Conflict of Interest Act and Virginia Public Records Act training.

That's actually the city attorney's office and I believe our FOIA officer as well.

Sorry, Brittany, I've obligated you to something that you're not actually going to attend.

I know the city attorney, two deputy city attorneys are willing to do this.

I think they're scheduled for the 18th of this month for our regular meeting.

So I'm going to move that if that's okay with you guys.

I'm thinking so we just for an update on that we did meet with

Eric Steinecker, some of you probably remember.

He came to one of our meetings virtually maybe a year or two ago to talk.

He's the director of Fair Housing Assistance Program, or I think just fair housing generally at HUD.

And we reviewed the draft amendments that we've made already.

And so I think we're on the right track.

We've got to do some more work with the city attorney's office on maybe some sections, but

It's coming together, so it could very well be ready by May.

So maybe we'll leave that there for now, if that seems good to you.

And that gets us on the road toward that goal.

What we were thinking, let me see here.

So we have our, do we want to set a time where we, I'm going to scroll down here.

Is June looking?

Not all of it for me, but I think all the other, you mean like these dates, these particular dates?

What are we thinking about for May's regular meeting?

And I'm putting in the April thing here, prepare draft ordinance for review, because it's getting close, but we'll want to keep working on that.

Yes, do you want to have sort of a discussion?

I guess we'll already be doing expert panel outreach here in April.

Maybe we'll finalize all of that in May.

Oops, got to get my...

So we do expert panel outreach.

Is that happening just sometime in April?

That's a great question.

We could maybe at your next meeting, you could have expert panel discussion to talk about who you wanted to invite.

If that's by which I mean, or we can do that offline as well.

But we know generally who the major service providers are.

We don't necessarily have to talk about that in a meeting.

Staff and I can talk about that with Ernest and Wolfgang and then bring a proposal to you at the 418 meeting.

Yeah.

I mean, part of the reason I was asking is

I don't know how much advance time they need and we know the date.

So if there are people we know that we're going to invite, do we just ask them to save the date right now?

I don't know.

I just don't know what's on people's plates and how much time we gave them last time.

I think it's a good idea to reach out because I don't know how many people we're thinking of doing,

They have six and two of them have kids at high school graduation or something.

It's like, we want to know that, you know.

Or we're friends with their kids or something like that.

Yeah.

That's a good question too.

And there's so much going on right now with housing and the zoning.

I mean, there's just so much going on.

I think are like the general key players, right?

But are there, I don't know, beyond that to your pointers, there's so much going on that is there, are there other places that we need to take it?

Parks was about to close so definitely want to haven do you do like a

Well, that would be the reason to invite them.

Yeah, just so you can understand.

I mean, part of what you're trying to do here, as I understand it, is get a sense of the landscape, right?

What are the services that are available both for housing and those wraparound services?

What's out there?

What's missing?

Helping to identify the gaps, those kinds of things.

Yeah.

I got, oh, this also recently that there, you know, people are concerned because POTS is about to close up because it's getting warmer and, you know, where those homeless people go that use POTS for services.

That sounds good.

Okay.

I'm going to get up to Wolfgang since she's not here tonight.

That's fine.

And Lily and I can... Yeah.

We got you.

I would hope so.

That's what I was thinking as well.

Yep.

Okay.

In May we're going to use the work session on 5.2 to review the proposed ordinance amendments.

I think that

Where we go with that is sort of dependent on what questions you have if we need to push it further beyond June, like if there's more things that we need to review.

I never know what may also happen with more discussions with city attorney's office and HUD, but for now, maybe let's keep it ambitious and see if we can get through it in one review with any comments that you have and then a finalized thing to propose in June.

Can I bring up one kind of unrelated thing?

I don't know that it's May, I don't know when it is, but remember that at our last meeting we talked about the idea of reparations for folks affected by, you know, the destruction of the Knicker Hill and we said one of the things we wanted to do is a little outreach to make sure that we're not sort of proposing something that community members

That's not a major agenda item, but if we could build in that outreach at some point, I think that would inform whether we want to work on this later in the year.

That's great.

Yeah, I think that's a great idea to put a bookmark in there.

I'm sorry, I'm doing the scrolling thing because I also want to look at what else is up there.

And also keeping in mind that the Ally and Safe Space training program development as well.

So if we go back down here to May, why don't we, it seems like doing that outreach sooner rather than later.

And it sounds like it could be one of those things where

We start to get feelers out and learn a little bit more this year.

It may carry over to the next year.

Who knows?

But starting early seems good.

What do you think?

Do you want to put a plug in there for May?

And do you have thoughts about how you might go about that?

Is that something the commissioners want to lead?

And how can staff support you?

Well, the thing too is,

We brought it up, and I don't know if that's something that's been going on in the community that people have been talking about?

Reparations?

Because I'm just asking because I want to know, you know, if Todd or Libby began to reach out, I want to know, you know, are we reaching out for something that's actively being talked about in the community?

And so because if it's something that community members are talking about, want to have an ear for, it's going to make a difference because we know it would, that's important.

And that we can find the people, the stakeholders involved in that and find out how we can support them in that.

That's my only concern is is that something that will grab traction that we can put our behind that's in the community right now because I think right now a lot of things being talked about is budget, raising of different taxes, meals and property and things like that and

There's a big thing they're talking about right now and a big concern.

Housing, huge concern.

Trying to find space to live.

I mean I thought like it speaks to me as an idea but I don't think this should come uniquely from us right if it's directly impacted people say this is not our priority then like we move on right yeah but if if this is a priority I think that the Human Rights Commission could have a really important voice in raising it up so that's why

Even just us learning, right?

Yes.

Versus, yeah, we're not finding a lot of people that work on it.

Yeah, so.

Do we know what happens in the community

I think we could talk to people like Frank Jeeves was working on it.

Well, I mean, I don't mind stopping by and talking to Dr. Douglas or Jordi or Lorenzo or see, you know, what's out there.

I agree.

Not that we... Yeah, that's great.

Thanks.

I just want to make sure we... Yeah, and I'm happy to do some outreach also.

Okay.

Awesome.

So I added it in May as maybe an action between meetings that commissioners will be talking to individuals in the community regarding the work done on reparations, just to get a sense of what that is.

If that then evolves into inviting people to a future meeting or one of our public surveys or another panel or something like that, we could move in that direction.

Does that seem right?

Did you want to do any other

No, I think that's enough for right now.

Okay.

Since we don't have any, we don't know who to reach out to and get the information.

So I think that's a good start.

Okay.

And I hope that we will keep this on our packet.

so we can refer back to it as we go along the year to see what we have done and what we have to do next.

So I think the proposal was to develop a program within the office so for that to be a new outreach program and so what I guess what we would like to know first of all is who else is doing that work currently in the community so similar to the reparations thing

So yeah, because I don't honestly know what Pride is doing or what other experts in the field are doing.

Yeah.

What'd you say?

The status of that

No, Lilly will fill you in.

She's got you.

Okay.

She's going to do some work, talk to some community groups and tell about the allied training and safe training that her and Wolfgang have been kind of working on.

Okay.

Okay.

I'll just put it in here as kind of an action between meetings in May.

We'll collaborate with partners to develop the Ally, I think this is what we call Ally Safe Space Training.

Okay.

So we'll leave that open at the moment.

We can always revisit this.

I think this is the thing to note is we're trying to get as many of these blanks filled in now as we can.

I don't mind opening every once in a while.

Yeah.

We'll say open for now.

And that also gives space for if somebody requests something.

Like I know we had at one point the folks working on the Daughters of Zion cemetery kind of revitalization and the sort of protection from the infiltration of water.

That kind of like those things kind of pop up sometimes.

So having that opening is not bad.

So we can leave that.

I'm going to do a scroll really quickly back up just to make sure that we didn't have any other things.

No.

Just looking at goals to make sure we didn't have any other goals that we needed to address.

So, OK.

I'm going to have May and June visible.

Looks pretty full to me.

A note on, let's see, it's not tentative to present the, this would be June 3rd.

Ernest, this is our moment to shine together in front of city council.

We should perhaps also put in our between meetings thing in May, prepare

I'm going to put chair and OHR staff prepare to present CY 2023 annual report to Council.

That's great.

Grass stains on your knees.

What needs to happen needs to happen.

They'll be good.

You're good at this kind of stuff, I know.

Okay, so we have that.

Also, a note on the other tentative piece down there, VHR Conference, I did see an email today.

from the Virginia Beach Human Rights Commission and Lily and I will talk about this because I'm sure she got that email as well about maybe what their plans are for hosting another what used to be called the Virginia Association of Human Rights Conference.

It may still be called that.

It used to have an organization

loosely formed around that, but now it just may be a gathering of commissioners from around the state.

So we don't know a date for that, but we are getting some response from Virginia Beach in our request to plan that with them.

So we'll keep that as tentative on the calendar, but just letting you know that there's some movement on that.

We're also looking to collaborate with them and just to talk about other things that they're doing.

So stay tuned.

July,

Ah, yeah.

That's a good point.

Are you talking about bringing in legislators that they like?

That could be.

So that may bring us back into things to do between meetings in May.

If we were thinking about having

Folks, come in then.

Should we start?

Let's see this.

Start planning outreach in May for July legislative, I can't spell legislative, agenda experts.

Yeah, that is also a thing.

Should we?

We could also move, we could also not have a work session and just move the expert panel to the regular meeting coupled with Jenny's presentation.

I'm not sure how long her presentation will be.

We may be able to do both in one long meeting.

Thoughts?

What's that?

Maybe.

She is going to be heading up to New York for grad school.

Congratulations, Jenny.

I don't know that, I probably have that written down somewhere as to the actual dates.

It might be putting it a little tight for her.

That's a good point.

Why don't I do this?

I'll copy it and put it down in the regular meeting in August or work session in August.

That's what I'm thinking.

Let me quickly look.

Jennie's going, no, while she's typing minutes.

I'm going to hope, am I sharing my, are you still seeing the work session document?

You are.

Right.

So can, can we ask you if she can delay her move one day?

I don't know if she would be.

I just think I'm worried about the legislators.

I mean, June, we don't have much on.

That's not much, yeah.

I think this is all based on her.

I'll shoot Ginny a quick Teams message.

The magic of technology.

We'll see if this works.

I don't know what she's up to at the moment, but I'll just kind of put the bug in her ear to see if she might be able to do it in June.

in July is cancelled.

Lily has texted Ginny, so we'll get an answer about June.

Looks like June is full.

July is full.

This is very tentative, but the proposing of the ordinance revisions to council could happen in July.

We'll see.

Yes, August is I pushed it this time back to make it happen in August or up I guess the way it is because that's what it was the feedback I got I think the earlier we get it in front of them you know in fact you know what I heard

This year was that we sort of jump started their legislative committee process by sending in our stuff.

So I think it's helpful for them just to see that movement.

Yes, and that is tentative.

And this gets into talking about what's in the ordinance revision.

We had had a lot of thoughts about what is the Commission's role in terms of individual complaints of discrimination, because right now it's pretty minimal.

And if you look at the

The ordinance, there's an appeal process for findings of no reasonable cause.

And then for findings of reasonable cause, there's a public hearing process, but a public hearing process that sort of leads to not clear what.

And so I'm trying to work with, and we, I got some more interesting ideas.

from HUD in our discussion on Tuesday that I also want to run by the city attorney's office because I have some thoughts about ways that it might be, you may have a more important or more valuable or impactful let's say role in your public hearings for individual complaints, but I need to run it by city attorney and others first and look at some other examples of other ordinances.

But all that said,

If you had, assuming we pass an ordinance with whatever amendments and you'll get to see all that stuff that I'm pitching, what I would love to do is go through some training to get you prepared to have a public hearing.

We've never had one.

in recent years.

I think, well, I should say never in recent years.

We've had one in the past that I believe was an appeal to a finding of no reasonable cause, but we've never had any others.

But that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen at any point.

And so I feel like once we have an ordinance that's amended and revised and adopted by council, then we train to that ordinance so that you all know

Right now I put it in the work session.

You can put it wherever you want to.

Let's do this.

What I'm going to do is I shouldn't have more written it like this.

Let's do tentative here.

I can't see.

Here we go.

Tentative.

And we'll say public hearing training.

Oh, okay.

June regular meeting is best for Jennie.

Thank you, Lily.

So look at that.

June regular meeting.

We've dropped her in there.

So can we, we're going to confirm that.

The magic of technology.

Look at that.

Thank you, Lily and Jennie.

So we'll leave that as tentative for September.

We'll figure that out.

That probably means that we need to, after we get, after we pass where we have proposed ordinance, present ordinance revisions to council, assuming that they accept that, we should probably do OHR staff look, or at that point we may want to finalize training opportunities

for HRC public hearings.

We'll just put that in that.

It might be a little short notice.

That's maybe a month and a half of planning to get us to have that there, but there we go.

One thing that might be helpful is, and we'll see where we go with this, but I feel like as we get deeper into the year, it's going to be a little bit harder to fill out.

everything wrong.

So one of the thoughts I'm having is we should keep doing everything we're doing right now, but maybe in September we revisit this and build out the rest of the year.

Maybe in August.

Maybe we do that during the regular meeting.

We're all going to be sitting here tonight like, I have no idea.

Let's see.

Sure.

I think so.

Let's see.

October.

Yes.

Form the committee earlier.

So we can give them charge and they can move.

Because I feel like we do that in our November meeting and we don't have a lot of time.

First week of December.

So we can move that up.

Yeah, no, finalize the members of the committee.

Ooh, ooh.

Oh, yeah, congratulations.

No, no, I hear you.

Sure, I understand.

You form your officer nominating committee at the regular meeting in October.

Typically what they do is they do outreach to the commission between meetings to seek nominations.

Right.

And then they bring that back as nominations, a slate of nominations in December.

Are you saying they should?

Bring it back to us in November.

and then vote in December.

totally makes sense I'm thinking about let me just check like we just may need to like amend your rules and procedures to do that but that's not a big deal you just do it and then you vote to do it I just want to check and make sure that it doesn't specify what date but that's your document to amend right like that's not a thing that you have to

get in front of council or anything like that.

Let's see.

I'm just going to look at it really quickly to make sure I know what we said there.

I don't know if we specified the date to be honest.

So election meetings, first regular meeting of the commission of January of each year.

But you could change that to December.

Like you could do that like at a regular meeting sometime leading up to that.

Yup, so why don't we, so let's do this, let's do this.

Okay, you could do it at any other meeting before October, I guess.

Or you could do it in November, I suppose.

So let's like amend rules and procedures.

For nominations?

to reflect a new election timeframe like that.

And so we'll in actions between meetings, we'll get a jumpstart on this so that you're well aware of what's going in there because we have to notify you pretty far in advance.

HRC rules and procedures.

Cool.

I think we did great.

Hey, here's the thing.

Let's look at this real quick because up here.

Yeah.

Submit policy recommendations to city council pertaining to focus area.

So

We did really get on the legislative piece.

Remember that we also, so we have like two expert panels coming in.

Both will inform one another, right?

Because if you want to do legislative recommendations around housing, homelessness, and wraparound services, you get an expert panel in June, and then you also get an expert panel talking more about what else is going on legislatively in July, but

So you're going to give council recommendations regarding legislative priorities, but you can also give council recommendations regarding city policy or other actions that you think council may want to consider.

A good time for that is right before budget season hits.

And so I'm kind of wondering, do we want to slot in

some reminders into this that oh yeah we may also want to think about city policy and what we want what other recommendations we want to present because we talk about

I think.

Where do we say it?

Do we say it anywhere?

No, we didn't put it on the calendar, but it's in our yellow highlights to say like, let's establish a time that we're going to present counsel with our other recommendations, whether that is like, we think you should fund X, Y, and Z to support emergency shelter or whatever it happens to be.

Okay, so maybe we want to, let's put like draft or discuss city policy recommendations.

We'll say, how about this?

Focus area, city policy recommendations based on earlier

Panel, Panels and Research, right?

And then perhaps here's our, here it is, submit additional recommendations to council sometime in October.

I don't know if we have to say a date yet, but, and that may be where we finalize policy recommendations

for submission to city council.

I think that's a good idea.

So we can go to,

How about this, would you just say housing issues?

We can just say October at this point.

Unless you want to do something more specific than that.

Let's remove this highlighting.

Look at that.

I'd say that's a work plan.

Anyone want to add some more goals?

Just kidding.

Oh, yeah.

Perfect.

Yep.

Yeah.

And I like the note.

We'll keep the note in there.

I'm going to delete this extra thing so we aren't tempted to add more goals.

There.

Looks good.

Good.

I'm scrolling.

Yup.

It's busy.

Counselors, oh, so, commissioners, any questions or anything that you may have that we have up there?

Have we done this in the past?

I think this is great.

I like that we have goals.

We know what we want to do next.

That's Todd, Lily, and Stan over here.

Teamwork.

I appreciate y'all.

Again, anything else?

Questions anyone had?

Lily, do you have anything?

Do you have anything?

Corey is just awesome.

I mean, you gotta check it out.

Have you said anything recently, Lily, about any of the outreach stuff that's going on?

It's nice to know because with us having expert panel,

Hopefully we'll see people, you know, that we've attended things that they've been a part of as well.

So, I mean, I'm just, I really don't know what to say about the housing situation here and either the lack of or the affordability of, and how can we change that in Charlottesville?

being supportive of groups that are trying to make those changes.

Because it's so important, I just, I mean, I feel bad that a kid that's maybe graduating from any high school in the area, you know, Charlottesville, Almonte County, you know, that may graduate, may not be able to afford to come back home.

Because they can't afford to live here unless they're making, you know, somewhere like

I think to the country you got to make around $90,000 more.

I read that Charlottesville is the most expensive housing market relative to wages.

So, you know, what can you do or say about it?

Well, ephemeral housing as well as painting.

The boogie band that can really help in this whole process.

Well, yeah, that can really help in not just, you know,

Hane, you know, Orpix, Public Wage, or helping with housing, or, I mean, so many things that they can do.

I just, it just gets me at times that we, we used so many other ways of research, you know, they have a school system, you know, different things they do.

They're in, I mean,

They use all of our services, firearms, police, things like that.

But, you know, I just wish they would notice.

It's interesting that they have not been more, to me, that they have not been more involved or concerned with a housing issue.

But I guess if you don't have a housing issue, it's not concerned for you.

But they have that concern because they actively watch how things get built.

True.

True.

I would say they've been concerned the wrong way.

You know, I would think if you're in a city and you have resources, you know, necessarily, some of y'all can hop up

If we have, if everyone else feel like we have done what we need to do today, thank you guys for your practice here.

I think we're back to matters of public.

Live cast is done, so is there any new business?

Do you have anything?

So now we'll go to matters of public.

You guys are here.

Is there anything that you'd like to ask, bring up, or?

I did.

University of Virginia.

Gotcha.

I didn't want to say it because it's interesting because I say that in this meeting that no one talks about it, but it's

something that lingers because they really don't pay into things.

It's interesting when we talk about budgets.

I know when I went to the budget meeting, the first one they had when I knew a city manager delivered the budget of the city, they never came up at all as far as supporting, helping in any way.

But it was later on in the budget process that I did hear from counselors

If we could get UVA to help, pay a yes.

If we could get UVA to find a way to help us with the housing, things like that.

So it's not that I'm against UVA, I love their presence here and that type of thing.

So I just feel that they're building buildings, they're taking up land,

and none of that stuff benefits us as a city.

It benefits them, it brings more people here that can afford to live here where people that have lived here for years are being moved out.

Because they can't afford to live here.

Or they're living in neighborhoods where people are knocking down homes to build their own homes.

So now,

So now their taxes are going up.

So the neighboring houses inside of them, the people that have been there for years, they can't afford to live there.

So they're being housed because they can't afford to do taxes.

We want to get more information about that.

You know, that's something that's interesting too.

It's interesting that to know where River Hill was, it's a small package on downtown Baltimore that you can walk over and not even notice that it's there.

And, you know, it's overshadowed by the total building and the harmony and things like that.

The people really knew the situation.

Yes, that's, hopefully that's a lot, but little stuff going around with homelessness, that's, people don't want to leave.

At times we don't have a choice.

Definitely housing.

I would say for counseling that, and I don't know how to do this with sort of a land walk here, but then first through fourth year students would all be required, I mean that doesn't really

And if you look at the UTS bus map, I was on the Graduate Student Council and I was constantly talking to UTS about the lack of buses and to your point about paying people, the line is always that there's a driver

I think that's something I can see this fall.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm looking for too.

You know what else I need?

Again, paying fair share of taxes, local housing, pay to pay with the wage, almost time.

I'm going to sign out.