City Council Meeting   4/1/2024

1. Call to Order/Roll Call

2. Agenda Approval

• • SPEAKER_40
  • 00:00:02
    It gives me a little bit of a kick in terms of the name of the project, but it's 40 units that is being expected.

3. Reports

• • SPEAKER_40
  • 00:00:12
    There are several funding mechanisms in terms of this project.

4. Affordable Housing Report FY2024

• • SPEAKER_40
  • 00:00:15
    However, I think they received a substantial investment support from both the state and probably the city.
  • 00:00:25
    and then 501 Cherry Avenue, 69 supported units, Wetland and 10th, it's on 601 Cherry Avenue.
  • 00:00:35
    Those are new projects, probably, I know that Wetland is a UVA project.
  • 00:00:43
    It's gonna have several units, gonna be a mixed use development, so we're expecting them.
  • 00:00:50
    They've already given us a call to discuss the project.
  • 00:00:55
    In terms of funding requests, we are probably expecting them to give us another call sometime next year when the next cycle begins.
  • 00:01:02
    So this is where we are in terms of affordable housing and the performance of the city council and the city of Charlottesville in terms of addressing this critical, compelling public purpose looks good.
  • 00:01:18
    And I think
  • 00:01:19
    or we think rather that in the next several years, the city council and the community will start seeing the dividends of the investment in terms of the prices of housing, both rental and ownership.
  • 00:01:34
    Thank you.
  • 00:01:35
    We'd be glad to field the question by the city council at this point.
  • 00:01:40
    Yes, sir.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:01:41
    Yes, thank you both for the presentation.
  • 00:01:43
    It was very informative.
  • 00:01:45
    I'm really glad to see that we're doing well in this regard.
  • 00:01:49
    I know we can always do more and do better.
  • 00:01:51
    One question I had for you is, so I saw that roughly $20 million, $24 million of the total overall
  • 00:02:00
    contribution that we're counting has to do with Midway Manor, is that right?
• • SPEAKER_40
  • 00:02:05
    Yeah, $23 million.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:02:08
    And we didn't actually put in the $23 million.
  • 00:02:11
    We enabled a bond, something to do with our pass-through, something with our economic development.
• • SPEAKER_40
  • 00:02:24
    What the council did was
  • 00:02:29
    The affordability period was expiring.
  • 00:02:34
    And usually the affordability period, if it expires, that means the owner of the project can release the entire units into the market rate units.
  • 00:02:50
    And essentially what we're going to have is probably 98
  • 00:02:56
    households that currently live in that development being homeless.
  • 00:03:03
    So the city council intervened because instead of putting it out as a market rate unit, they decided they were going to renovate.
  • 00:03:12
    And for them to get a cheap
  • 00:03:15
    Financing to continue to make the project affordable.
  • 00:03:21
    Council intervened and authorized CRHA to issue a bond in the amount of $23 million to enable the renovation of the project, essentially ensuring that in the next 30 years the project will continue to be affordable.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:03:37
    So the bond for that was issued against CRHA's portfolio?
• • Michael Payne
  • 00:03:43
    But CRHA has no financial liability and it doesn't impact their budget in any way, so it is essentially a pass-through.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:03:50
    Yeah, I think it's great.
  • 00:03:52
    I was involved a little bit on the edges of those conversations, I guess a year ago maybe.
  • 00:03:58
    We've added it to our bar chart.
  • 00:04:02
    It kind of bumps our bar chart up, so I just want to make sure we're all in agreement that it belongs in our
  • 00:04:07
    in our win column or just our more in our assist column.
• • SPEAKER_40
  • 00:04:11
    Yeah, it's without the city money or authorization that you should have bond and nobody else was able to do it.
  • 00:04:18
    Essentially, the option would be to go to market rate or seek a higher financing rate somewhere else and then we have problem with the current tenant.
  • 00:04:28
    essentially the same exercise with the acquisition of Dogwood in a way.
  • 00:04:35
    But in this case, Syria approved 100% of the rehabilitation.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:04:41
    Okay.
  • 00:04:43
    And so the Muse, for example, I don't guess we would see that on our CIP list because that's something we're
  • 00:04:52
    I mean, I guess what I'm trying to get a sense of is what counts as a win for us versus just sort of an assist.
  • 00:05:02
    So I'll say a dunk shot versus an assist.
• • SPEAKER_29
  • 00:05:07
    Well, let me respond to it in this way.
  • 00:05:10
    So of that, Alex had highlighted that under $33.3 million that was requested in the RFI process, not necessarily requested, detailed,
  • 00:05:22
    because it's a request for information.
  • 00:05:23
    It's a non-funding practice that we do concurrently with our citywide NOFA for housing related activities that we send out to the development community to, hey, let us know what your five-year projection looks like, right?
  • 00:05:40
    From that 22 list, a number of those projects
  • 00:05:46
    either went through a LIHTC application or through a CAF or some other type of mechanism applied for funding.
  • 00:05:52
    And so that amount, say for example, 501 Cherry was on that FY22 list, but they've since then cycled back and completed a process and the allocated or the commitment to that project is within that 29.5 million.
  • 00:06:11
    So a lot of it has to do with the applicant, the project developer coming back and completing the process.
  • 00:06:19
    MUSE, if my memory serves right, they submitted information in the FY22 RFI, but didn't apply for CAF specifically in that same following year.
  • 00:06:33
    However, since that time, they have, for example, applied for some funding through the state and some other mechanisms and have been successful.
  • 00:06:40
    So I anticipate maybe that that discussion will continue and you may see that shift into the green where there is hopefully a mechanism identified to support their continued process to getting that project rendered successfully.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:06:57
    And then Wortland, for example, is with the university.
  • 00:07:00
    So we would have some skin in the game in that, I guess.
• • SPEAKER_29
  • 00:07:03
    Yeah.
  • 00:07:04
    I would like to defer to Alex to speak more to the Wortland conversation.
• • SPEAKER_40
  • 00:07:08
    Yes, sir.
  • 00:07:10
    We've been talking with them.
  • 00:07:11
    As a matter of fact, we've had some kind of project scoping meetings with their developer that was chosen by OA, I believe is the name of the development company, that was chosen by UVA for that project.
  • 00:07:32
    And then we continue to be in discussion with them in terms of
  • 00:07:38
    ADU requirements in terms of who they need to talk to in the city, whether it's stormwater, NDS permitting process, we've had that meeting with them and then referred them to our property city department for further consultations.
  • 00:07:56
    So we are currently talking with them and we are expecting that they're going to submit an application for funding request at the next round.
• • Michael Payne
  • 00:08:07
    Just to confirm, so UVA had made a public pledge to build affordable housing.
  • 00:08:14
    And in the context of them not paying over $20 million annually in property taxes, our expectation is that they're going to come to us and request that we pay for building the affordable housing they pledge to build.
• • SPEAKER_40
  • 00:08:26
    Well, I'm just, we're submitting the information.
  • 00:08:31
    This is what's going on right now.
  • 00:08:32
    And that's a great question because
  • 00:08:35
    It came up during the selection process and I happened to be on the UVA Housing Advisory Committee.
  • 00:08:43
    And this was the question we dealt with.
  • 00:08:47
    This question is going to come from the community, it's going to come from the city council.
  • 00:08:52
    And so you guys be prepared in terms of how you are going to deal with that.
  • 00:08:59
    So that question is real.
  • 00:09:02
    It's factual and you're not the only one that is asking this question.
  • 00:09:08
    And yes, you know, we expect them to submit application and then if they do, then staff will discuss that and the CAF Advisory Committee, you know, will also discuss that because I believe in one or two occasions, you know,
  • 00:09:32
    It probably came up during their discussion, so it's good that council is aware that this could happen.
  • 00:09:42
    We have expectation that they will submit, but we'll wait until the next cycle and see what happens.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:09:49
    Yeah, I would say that my guess is that their view, not disagreeing with you, Councillor Payne, but their view is that their contribution is the land underneath and the project management expertise to pull it off.
  • 00:10:04
    So that would be their view.
• • Michael Payne
  • 00:10:11
    Well, all right.
  • 00:10:18
    I'll say I think there's
  • 00:10:22
    Good news in this report, granted it's still a limited sample size, but that we've met our 10 million, exceeded our 10 million a year commitment every year is very positive, as well as this past year that over 60% of funding went to 30% AMI or below, and 97% of funding went to 50% of area median income or below, I think is a very positive change in direction in terms of what we're prioritizing in our funding.
  • 00:10:52
    I have just a couple questions, one on the preservation side.
  • 00:10:58
    So we have a number of units created.
  • 00:11:01
    in some cases decades ago through low income housing tax credits.
  • 00:11:05
    Those affordability periods will end at various points over the next few years.
  • 00:11:10
    Do we kind of keep a list with each of those dates that the affordability period ends so we can strategically look at 100 affordable units will go on offline in three years?
  • 00:11:22
    How can we proactively step in to ensure that doesn't happen?
• • SPEAKER_40
  • 00:11:27
    That's a great question.
  • 00:11:28
    That's part of the tracking process.
  • 00:11:32
    Actually, we are looking at some kind of elaborate mechanism to do that, including the annual lists that comes out from the State Department of Housing and Community Development, because they have, and sometimes hard, can send you a notice
  • 00:11:56
    You know, hey folks, you know, the following is going to be going off the affordability period, just in case there is anything, any reaction that's going to come back from the city in terms of, in terms of negotiation for retention, you know.
  • 00:12:15
    And the other thing is, as we move forward at this point, since we already, we have set up some kind of pipeline system for production,
  • 00:12:26
    So one of the things we are going to be putting in the agreement going forward, it's for the funded agency to notify the city 90 days before the expiration of the affordability period so that the city will have enough time, reaction time, in order to request for either extension
  • 00:12:47
    and what have you.
  • 00:12:49
    So we're going to build that in our agreement so that we have some kind of first right of refusal in terms of extension.
  • 00:12:57
    And yes, yeah, we are doing that.
• • SPEAKER_29
  • 00:13:02
    I just want to add, in God's first opinion, I believe that maybe by mid-September I'll be able to speak to, because we're also, we're looking forward and we're also looking back, and then we have to track, to your point, when those expiration dates happen, to really get a grasp on what our net
  • 00:13:21
    that game is or net loss, right?
  • 00:13:24
    So based on what our activities right now and the information that we're aggregating as staff, I think by mid September, we'll be able to have a more detailed report of those prior LIHTC projects, for example, and where they sit and where they set to expire.
  • 00:13:42
    And then that way you get a more comprehensive look at the pipeline.
• • Michael Payne
  • 00:13:45
    Right.
  • 00:13:45
    And I guess my hope would be, I know going forward that we're going to have
  • 00:13:51
    a right of first refusal and other mechanisms but obviously for some of those projects done in the 80s and 90s they weren't done right and don't have that so some of those we may need just awareness one, two, three years in advance in order to kind of prepare and have it on our radar that
  • 00:14:08
    You know, hey, maybe part of our CIP if we want to preserve 200 units three years from now, just so we're aware of that, if it doesn't have a right of first refusal or this other mechanism.
• • SPEAKER_29
  • 00:14:16
    And it's an interesting thing you mentioned that number 200, because right now, as we sit, our net gain, without counting those expiration times or whatnot, we are at about 200 units.
  • 00:14:26
    So we like to be positive in all of this, right?
  • 00:14:32
    We want to add to the portfolio.
  • 00:14:33
    We don't kind of just want to break even.
• • Michael Payne
  • 00:14:35
    Definitely.
  • 00:14:36
    And the only other questions I assume for the projects that we have allocated funding for in our CIP that were, you know, in our performance agreements, we're ensuring that our expectation of what the AMI levels are, the break, the percentage of units at different AMI levels that we're obviously keeping track of that and ensuring that that's being followed through on.
• • SPEAKER_29
  • 00:14:57
    Yes.
  • 00:14:58
    The slide before this one where it shows the pie charts.
  • 00:15:01
    where reporting has improved because that's also been a part of the staff capacity and enhancing our activities or the outcomes of our activities.
  • 00:15:11
    We have more complete reports where they are reporting that data and we can measure our investments in terms of units created across AMI.
  • 00:15:21
    So that reporting will only improve as our ability to collect information improves.
  • 00:15:28
    We're okay with the outcome right now, but we can obviously do better.
  • 00:15:32
    And so I look to people even probably in September to speak better to what that number is.
• • Michael Payne
  • 00:15:41
    Yeah, final thoughts, nothing new, but I continue to think if we could have a land bank combined with a land trust, it could be another tool for preserving affordable housing, not just LIHTC, but also mobile home parks, kind of naturally occurring affordable housing.
  • 00:16:03
    I also hope that we can be explicit that whenever those affordable housing contributions that have come through, particularly for some of these large student apartment complexes, that whenever we receive that money, that our expectation is that is on top of our 10 million annual commitment, not a replacement for it.
  • 00:16:21
    Otherwise, essentially, we've
  • 00:16:23
    haven't really had a net contribution to affordable housing.
  • 00:16:27
    And then again, nothing new, but those AMI levels are striking in that when you're talking about 30% area median income, you're talking about people who are working full-time 40 hours a week for $15 an hour.
  • 00:16:40
    50% of AMI, you're talking about teachers, nurses, firefighters, city employees,
  • 00:16:46
    and the Planning District Commission report showed the data that the median black household in Charlottesville is at 50% of AMI.
  • 00:16:56
    The median white household is more than double that.
  • 00:17:00
    And so I think it's just important for us to always keep in mind in these conversations about anything housing related, who is completely left out from benefiting of some of our conversations.
  • 00:17:10
    So I know you are all aware of that, but it's just striking to see every time.
• • SPEAKER_29
  • 00:17:15
    All great points and we continue to carry those forward as the committees meet.
  • 00:17:19
    It comes up regularly in question and as they evaluate applications as we consider new programs from the land bank to abatement for performance for affordable housing.
  • 00:17:31
    There are a number of models that are that are being implemented across the state that it's been put on our radar to evaluate and so we do that through that lens you know so
  • 00:17:45
    It's always good to hear.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:17:47
    Michael, I'm sorry, I was trying to multitask, which gets harder and harder the older I get.
  • 00:17:51
    But you mentioned something about money replacing, not letting the fact that we get certain funds from somewhere else replace.
• • Michael Payne
  • 00:18:01
    Well, my view is, for example,
  • 00:18:05
    Just let's say one of these large student apartment complexes, their payment in lieu was 10 million.
  • 00:18:10
    I think that should be on top of our existing commitment, not just replace the 10 million.
  • 00:18:16
    That makes sense.
  • 00:18:17
    Yeah.
  • 00:18:17
    Thank you.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 00:18:21
    So, Natalie, did you have any questions or comments at this time?
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 00:18:24
    Thank you.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 00:18:25
    Lloyd, do you have any questions?
  • 00:18:27
    Thank you.
  • 00:18:28
    Actually, I do have one comment and that is looking at the page called strategic funding allocations for affordable housing.
  • 00:18:36
    I understand.
  • 00:18:37
    I'm assuming that the reason for this confusion is because you're going March to March.
  • 00:18:45
    Yes.
  • 00:18:45
    But any time you talk about FY 2023, that really ought to be something that ends June 30th, 2023.
  • 00:18:58
    That's not what that page shows.
  • 00:19:01
    That page is a hopeless muddle if we're trying to figure out what we're actually doing in our fiscal year.
  • 00:19:10
    Because you're crossing fiscal years and I know you said it's actually three and a half years being figured in there.
  • 00:19:19
    I just think as a matter of convention,
  • 00:19:23
    Anytime we say FY 2023, we ought to be talking July to June, July of 2022 to June of 2023.
  • 00:19:33
    Similarly FY 2022, similarly FY 2021.
• • SPEAKER_29
  • 00:19:37
    It's not meant to be a muddle, but it's to explain why the rest of 2024 is not reported, because we stopped at March to get the numbers currently where they are.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 00:19:49
    So as I'm just looking at this page, the numbers on the left don't match the numbers on the right.
  • 00:19:57
    They're different years.
  • 00:20:02
    The numbers actually match, but one of them says FY 2021, meaning what ends in March of FY 2022.
• • SPEAKER_29
  • 00:20:12
    Let's count that a typo because I see what you're saying underneath.
  • 00:20:16
    I wish I could go back for the rest of the public's benefit.
  • 00:20:18
    So underneath the bar chart where it says March FY24.
  • 00:20:22
    So conventionally, if I was doing this according to our fiscal years, it would go from the July June dates, correct?
  • 00:20:27
    Okay.
  • 00:20:29
    We were picking this conversation up from the endorsement of the affordable household plan, which occurred in March.
  • 00:20:35
    So it does capture some of the 23-24 numbers, but there's a cutoff for us for this conversation.
  • 00:20:42
    I think it added more confusion than it did clarity.
  • 00:20:44
    So, but to your point, it is heard and understood.
  • 00:20:47
    It would not have read, it should not be there March 23-24.
  • 00:20:52
    It should just say, just as the left says, FY 23, FY 22, FY 21 for consistency.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 00:20:59
    But I understand your point.
  • 00:21:01
    The other question I have is not really that I'm trying to understand
  • 00:21:09
    what it is that went into $61 million when we have always been thinking of ourselves as getting roughly 10, $12 million in a fiscal year, which ought to translate to 30 to 36 million.
  • 00:21:28
    And here we are at 61 million.
  • 00:21:30
    And I certainly don't remember, I mean, I know we didn't spend that money,
• • SPEAKER_29
  • 00:21:36
    So that $61 million also counts in your win column, the $23 million conversation that was discussed with Midway Manor.
  • 00:21:45
    So if you were to take that out of that middle bar chart, that would go down because that figure's in there.
  • 00:21:52
    But again, if you were to average this out over the applicable fiscal years,
  • 00:21:57
    You wouldn't be at 30 plus million.
  • 00:21:59
    It would be actually closer to 15, 16 million dollars.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 00:22:03
    Okay.
  • 00:22:04
    And my reason for raising the issue
  • 00:22:07
    may be as much for the benefit of people who are trying to assess political promises, which I know isn't your job.
  • 00:22:18
    But when we have made political promises that we're going to spend $10 million a year, my fear is that we look at something like this and say, boy, aren't we great.
  • 00:22:28
    We more than doubled what we said we were going to do when, in fact, we didn't.
  • 00:22:33
    And it's just a matter of us trying to understand how we have used the $10 million commitment figure and how what's on this page isn't really, it's not really an apples to apples comparison.
  • 00:22:49
    It's not your fault.
  • 00:22:50
    It's a comment I'm directing more to the rest of us than you.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 00:22:54
    OK, any other comments, Lloyd, or you just kind of want that as a clarification?
• • Sam Sanders
  • 00:23:01
    Yeah, I got nothing else.
  • 00:23:02
    So if I could, let me just also say that, take the point for what has been shared.
  • 00:23:09
    And I think what we can do is we can make the adjustment to clarify or to represent the information by fiscal year exclusively.
  • 00:23:18
    because the endorsement of the affordable housing plan happened before a fiscal year was over.
  • 00:23:24
    There were only three remaining months.
  • 00:23:26
    So that would be why we were trying to capture it this way and timing when the last update occurred.
  • 00:23:32
    But this can be repositioned to be more reflective of by calendar year so that for the public consumption, we're presenting exactly what each individual fiscal year has produced, which is 38 million.
  • 00:23:45
    If my math is right, but I might have missed something else that you put in there.
  • 00:23:50
    But I think we can do that and then reissue that so that you have it by fiscal year, by actual single fiscal year.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 00:23:57
    And the other piece that may be that next year, maybe you do your report in July and you will do it after the close of the fiscal year, and then we don't have to worry about the issue.
  • 00:24:07
    I was going there too.
• • Sam Sanders
  • 00:24:10
    Yeah, and that way it'll be a fiscal year to fiscal year.
  • 00:24:13
    Thank you.
  • 00:24:13
    Thank you very much.

5. Public Safety Outcome Area: FLOCK

• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:24:36
    Mayor, city manager, councilors, first of all, I want to thank you for the opportunity to report back to you.
  • 00:24:47
    on the community outreach efforts that you requested the last time I presented this to you.
  • 00:24:52
    Before I get into this presentation, I just want to personally thank each of you for your time, for listening to me, and all your thoughtful questions that we spoke last week.
  • 00:25:02
    I really appreciate it.
  • 00:25:04
    While I realize that there are folks who remain skeptical of this technology, I am reminded regularly of my responsibility
  • 00:25:11
    as your chief to recommend to you data-driven and proven strategies to address gun violence in our community.
  • 00:25:18
    On the day I was sworn in right here, I identified three priorities that we'd begin to work on immediately.
  • 00:25:25
    I committed one, to building meaningful community partnerships and to addressing gun violence.
  • 00:25:30
    Two, I committed to focusing on recruitment and retention.
  • 00:25:34
    And then finally, I committed to the treatment and wellness of our staff.
  • 00:25:38
    As a result, we have gone from 30 vacancies to three.
  • 00:25:42
    We have invested in training of our entire staff on procedural justice principles, de-escalation, and use of force principles utilizing the ICAT model.
  • 00:25:52
    We have created a culture within our organization where the community and police work in concert to address complex issues facing our neighborhoods.
  • 00:26:00
    And today, I'm presenting you just one more piece,
  • 00:26:04
    One tool of my promise to address gun violence within the city of Charlottesville.
  • 00:26:10
    I'm also joined by members of our Community Action Team who are here tonight.
  • 00:26:15
    They're here because I've committed to report quarterly to them and to show them how we're using this technology and to what circumstances we're using it in.
  • 00:26:24
    Our Community Action Team meets once a month to discuss important issues in the community, policy, and most importantly, to challenge me on the important topics of the day.
  • 00:26:36
    I can assure you, none of them shy away from telling me what they really feel.
  • 00:26:40
    I've also asked the Executive Director of the PCOB, Gonzalez, to be here as she will have unfettered access to the FLOC system and will be able to randomly audit our officers' activity within the system as she sees fit, just as she can with our body-worn camera system.
  • 00:26:57
    Recently, Ms. Gonzalez attended CJIS training, Criminal Justice Information Security training, which allows her to have access to information from NCIC and VSIM.
  • 00:27:10
    Finally, and just because recently I just got off the phone with him not too long ago, I've spoken with local attorney Jeff Fogel on several occasions about the flock system.
  • 00:27:19
    And while he clearly opposes it, he's not shy to tell you that, I value his opinion and his thought processes on the matter.
  • 00:27:28
    He's been doing this work his entire life.
  • 00:27:30
    My many conversations and regular meetings with him have formed my policy recommendations, which you'll hear from here in a second.
  • 00:27:40
    Figure out how to work this thing.
  • 00:27:41
    Okay, so flock.
  • 00:27:43
    This is where currently in the Commonwealth of Virginia, flock exists.
  • 00:27:47
    It's an ALPR, automated license plate readers.
  • 00:27:50
    We talked about this the first time, so I won't belabor some of these points that we've already talked about.
  • 00:27:56
    Within the Commonwealth, I just added a few of the jurisdictions, like size, like demographic jurisdictions, Portsmouth, Norfolk, Harrisonburg, Fairfax, Alexandria, Lynchburg, Richmond, Newport News, and I can go on.
  • 00:28:09
    As I speak to my peers across the Commonwealth, they have seen dramatic reductions, significant reductions in either homicide, violent crime, and continue to share stories of
  • 00:28:24
    of those reductions in crime.
  • 00:28:28
    So what are some of the benefits?
  • 00:28:29
    And this is a slide from the last one, so I won't go through it, but all of it.
  • 00:28:33
    But, you know, amber alert, silver alert, blue alert, when those alerts occur, our officers will be alerted immediately and will be able to find that missing person, find that missing endangered adult,
  • 00:28:49
    to find that missing child.
  • 00:28:51
    It's also a valuable tool for solving shootings, robberies, and stolen vehicles.
  • 00:28:59
    How can FLOC help mitigate disparities in policing?
  • 00:29:03
    One, it allows a focus on objective data rather than subjective factors, which can reduce the potential for implicit bias in policing decisions.
  • 00:29:11
    Now look, there's no debate, none whatsoever, about the disparities in traffic stops,
  • 00:29:18
    Use of force and arrest.
  • 00:29:20
    Anyone that says they don't exist is just lying to themselves.
  • 00:29:23
    The question that we all need to be asking is why do they exist?
  • 00:29:28
    The Center for Policing Equity is currently working with us on a study to study just that.
  • 00:29:33
    And we have also partnered with the Justice Department on doing an organizational assessment to kind of see what our policies and practices are.
  • 00:29:41
    I want to know the why.
  • 00:29:42
    Why do they exist?
  • 00:29:43
    I read report after report from jurisdiction after jurisdiction.
  • 00:29:46
    It all says the same thing.
  • 00:29:49
    Again, typically when we are looking for someone looking for a vehicle, we cast a wide net.
  • 00:29:55
    This system will allow us to focus.
  • 00:29:58
    When I met, when we did meet during our two to one with Oschrin, you had a very good question and made a very good point about the subjective and subjective factors.
  • 00:30:06
    And to your point, you know, we're never going to be able to completely get rid of our subjectivity of traffic stops.
  • 00:30:12
    But this is one piece, one tool that can help us do a little better.
  • 00:30:16
    And I've been very clear that we need to continue to do better.
  • 00:30:22
    So what is flock safety?
  • 00:30:23
    Flock safety deploys solo license plate readers.
  • 00:30:25
    They take a picture.
  • 00:30:26
    It's a photograph.
  • 00:30:27
    It is not a video.
  • 00:30:29
    Provides still images of vehicles in a respective license plate numbers and then the or the or a or the rear of the vehicle.
  • 00:30:40
    It's a web-based program with unlimited end users that can also search for make, model of vehicles, as well as color and body types.
  • 00:30:48
    And it downloads NCIC hot lists four times a day.
  • 00:30:51
    It does not, and I'll repeat this, it does not access the DMV system.
  • 00:30:56
    It is the NCIC system.
  • 00:30:59
    So if your vehicle is not registered or expired, it doesn't access it like that.
  • 00:31:04
    It only accesses the NCI system, NCIC system.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:31:08
    Which is what, sir?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:31:09
    National Criminal Information Center, that's it, yes.
  • 00:31:15
    It's maintained by the FBI and it's basically if you have a missing person, there's specific parameters in order to enter something or someone into that system.
  • 00:31:25
    The CJIS training that you have to go through for security, I was just talking about that Ms. Gonzalez has, in order to have access to this system or to view any of it, you have to have attended that training.
  • 00:31:37
    What is not flock safety?
  • 00:31:38
    It's not a video, does not have facial recognition, and it does not report traffic violations.
  • 00:31:44
    These are three things that I've heard misconceptions of what it is.
  • 00:31:47
    It doesn't do any of these.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 00:31:50
    Sorry, when you say it does not report traffic violations, that means it's not a red light camera.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:31:55
    It is not.
  • 00:31:59
    So I'm going to get into calls for service, just some raw data, what we see here in the city.
  • 00:32:03
    So if you see on the left district, so we have separated the city into three districts, north, central and south.
  • 00:32:08
    We've done that from an accountability piece.
  • 00:32:11
    There is a commander assigned to each district.
  • 00:32:14
    Every month when we have our community staff meeting, each district commander gets up in front and talks about things going on within their district and what they're doing about it.
  • 00:32:23
    And you know, Councilor Snook, you've been to one, the city manager as well.
  • 00:32:28
    It's a long meeting.
  • 00:32:29
    Anyone is welcome to attend.
  • 00:32:31
    Any of y'all are welcome to attend.
  • 00:32:33
    But it was a lot of good information comes from that.
  • 00:32:36
    As you can see, we continue to see a correlation between our stolen vehicles and our shots fired calls within the city.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 00:32:45
    Can you say what those acronyms on the left are?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:32:49
    Yes.
  • 00:32:50
    So Charlottesville Police North, Charlottesville Police Central, Charlottesville Police South.
  • 00:32:56
    Thank you.
  • 00:33:00
    Here's a heat map of our stolen vehicles for 2023.
  • 00:33:03
    A majority of our stolen vehicles are being reported in the downtown west, main, and 10th and Grady areas of the city.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:33:12
    Where are people stealing these cars from?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:33:16
    Parking lots, side of the road, driveways.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:33:20
    And they do that sort of their vehicle of choice to commit?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:33:27
    That's correct.
  • 00:33:28
    So what we're seeing is a group of folks pull up in a car, someone's car, someone who owns it.
  • 00:33:34
    One of the persons will get out, they'll steal the car, they'll go commit the crime, they're shooting, whatever.
  • 00:33:40
    Typically it's a shooting and then they'll dump that car.
  • 00:33:44
    The LPR system will assist us in identifying that car that dropped them off.
  • 00:33:48
    It'll give us a name.
  • 00:33:49
    It'll also be able to track the area of that vehicle from an evidentiary purpose if there's a homicide associated with that shooting.
  • 00:33:58
    Here are our shots fired heat map.
  • 00:34:00
    You can see it's the same areas.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 00:34:05
    Sorry, can I back up quickly?
  • 00:34:07
    How many of those stolen cars are recovered?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:34:10
    I don't have that number in front of me right now, but we do recover a lot of those.
  • 00:34:19
    Thanks.
  • 00:34:20
    You can see the heat map for our shots fired calls for 2023, same areas.
  • 00:34:30
    And this is the combined shots fired and stolen vehicle.
  • 00:34:34
    They're happening in the same area.
  • 00:34:39
    85% of our shootings involve the use of vehicles.
  • 00:34:42
    And so if a description of a vehicle with no tag information is put out, I'll use the example of the Ellie Wood murder that happened last year.
  • 00:34:49
    We had a description early on of a silver four-door sedan that the suspects just got into.
  • 00:34:54
    That description was given to dispatch immediately after that person was killed in a parking lot at around 1 o'clock in the morning.
  • 00:35:02
    If we had the flock ALPR system, we would have been able to put that information immediately into that system and any silver four-door sedan that would have driven through one of the flock systems would have alerted responding officers.
  • 00:35:16
    They could have gone, tried to locate that vehicle.
  • 00:35:20
    They have to come up with their own reason to stop it.
  • 00:35:22
    And I'll get into what officers can and can't do from a flock hit.
  • 00:35:27
    but it would have given us a lead and hopefully would have been able to apprehend that person much sooner.
  • 00:35:33
    All six murders in 2023 involved a vehicle.
  • 00:35:39
    These are the locations that we are proposing to put the cameras.
  • 00:35:42
    We will be advertising this.
  • 00:35:44
    These will be put out.
  • 00:35:45
    It will not be a secret where the cameras are.
  • 00:35:47
    Everyone will know where they are.
  • 00:35:49
    You could see that they're not in specific neighborhoods.
  • 00:35:51
    It's mostly entrance and exit routes from the city or main thoroughfares.
  • 00:36:00
    So community outreach.
  • 00:36:02
    Mayor, at the time you were a counselor, you had really requested that we get out and speak to the community.
  • 00:36:05
    I appreciate that because we learned a lot.
  • 00:36:09
    I learned a lot.
  • 00:36:10
    This is a list of the different organizations that we went and spoke to and the different conversations we had.
  • 00:36:17
    10th and Page Association, Venable, North Old Town, Friends of Downtown, Fifeville.
  • 00:36:23
    Rose Hill is scheduled for April 9th, the specific for that organization.
  • 00:36:28
    But we have spoken to them, just haven't given the official presentation to them yet.
  • 00:36:33
    Conversations during our community walks.
  • 00:36:35
    And let me say this about those walks.
  • 00:36:41
    You'll see that last one, Ridge and Lankford Residents Association.
  • 00:36:44
    We did a community walk after there was a shooting on that block.
  • 00:36:49
    And that turned into a community meeting on a sidewalk with about 20 residents.
  • 00:36:57
    And to say they were angry is an understatement.
  • 00:37:05
    stories of one woman who their kids are now have to they're still dealing with what they saw what happened because they're out on their bikes when there was a shootout on their block involving two vehicles again if we had this system we would have been able to identify those vehicles quickly and hopefully take those folks into custody that were involved in this instead what happened is there was retribution
  • 00:37:31
    and I talked about this when this was happening over three or four days.
  • 00:37:34
    We had like three shootings over four days.
  • 00:37:36
    It was these groups shooting back and forth each other.
  • 00:37:39
    And so it really impacts folks in the community.
  • 00:37:44
    Our Community Action Team, I've given the presentation to our Community Action Team, gotten a lot of great questions.
  • 00:37:50
    They have helped me form my policy recommendations as well as we go through this.
  • 00:37:54
    I've also given the presentation to the PCOB and then a town hall meeting that we conducted.
  • 00:38:02
    Feedback.
  • 00:38:03
    So I'll say this, the feedback that we have received while giving these presentations is overwhelmingly in support of it.
  • 00:38:10
    I've been asked, why don't we have it yet?
  • 00:38:12
    That being said, there were also some really, there were some privacy concerns, significant privacy concerns, and I'm sensitive to them.
  • 00:38:23
    And as a result of these conversations, you'll see my initial presentation, my initial recommendations, what I offered to you at first, and then what I'm offering to you now.
  • 00:38:32
    So initial policy recommendations.
  • 00:38:34
    Retention for data was 30 days, which is what every jurisdiction in the Commonwealth of Virginia does.
  • 00:38:39
    And across the country, to be honest with you, and I'll show you some examples, there's a few that are much less, but for the most part, the industry standard's 30 days.
  • 00:38:49
    The data's shared with all government flock users across the nation.
  • 00:38:53
    And it would be an initial three-year program.
  • 00:38:56
    The cost of it is $30,000 a year.
  • 00:38:59
    So it would have been $90,000.
  • 00:39:02
    After my conversations, after my meetings with Mr. Fogle, after my meetings with the Community Action Team, this is my current recommendation.
  • 00:39:11
    A 12-month pilot with quarterly updates to community groups, every one of those groups, I have committed to meet with them quarterly to go over this data and what we're doing with it.
  • 00:39:22
    To City Council, I commit to you, City Council, to come back to you quarterly and go over what we are doing with this data, what we are doing with these cameras.
  • 00:39:31
    and to the PCOB.
  • 00:39:33
    I commit to the PCOB to come to their meetings quarterly and present to them what they are doing with this.
  • 00:39:41
    We're also gonna have a transparency portable available to the public online, and I'll show you what a few of them look like from other jurisdictions.
  • 00:39:47
    It talks about how long we keep the data, who we're sharing it with, and what we're doing with it.
  • 00:39:53
    I have also recommended data will only be retained for seven days.
  • 00:39:57
    This is the shortest retention within the Commonwealth of Virginia.
  • 00:40:01
    Data will not be shared outside of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
  • 00:40:05
    So in my policy recommendation, and you will see some examples because it shows who has access to their cameras.
  • 00:40:10
    You'll notice some jurisdictions have a lot of places that have access to their cameras.
  • 00:40:15
    No one outside of Commonwealth of Virginia, no flock user outside of Commonwealth of Virginia will have access to our cameras.
  • 00:40:23
    And then this notice, and I actually got this from the ACLU's website, I actually think it's a good practice.
  • 00:40:32
    A notice to any officer who gets a flock hit, a flock alert, it will say, a flock alert is not justification on its own to justify a stop of the vehicle.
  • 00:40:42
    Information from the alert must be independently confirmed by the officer before acting upon its information.
  • 00:40:49
    Here are some accountability measures.
  • 00:40:51
    I've talked about a few of them in my opening statement.
  • 00:40:55
    We'll have a system administrator in the police department.
  • 00:40:57
    They'll conduct regular audits to ensure proper usage of the system.
  • 00:41:03
    If an officer is found to use this for something other than a criminal justice for a legitimate law enforcement purpose, that is a crime within the Commonwealth of Virginia.
  • 00:41:12
    It is a class one misdemeanor.
  • 00:41:14
    I have spoken to the Commonwealth Attorney, Mr. Potenya, and the officer will be prosecuted.
  • 00:41:19
    Make no mistake about it, it's a crime.
  • 00:41:23
    Executive director of the PCOB has been asked to have full audit capability of it.
  • 00:41:27
    What does that mean?
  • 00:41:27
    What does that look like?
  • 00:41:28
    And Inez is here today, and she could answer any follow-ups.
  • 00:41:32
    And we've spoken about this.
  • 00:41:34
    It is the auditing of the officer's activity within the system, just like anything else that she would have the ability to audit.
  • 00:41:42
    So she could go in and audit one officer a day,
  • 00:41:46
    15 officers the next day, it depends on what she has time to do and the ability to do it.
  • 00:41:52
    When an officer goes in and runs a query in a flock system, it's a stamp.
  • 00:41:57
    It says why they're running it, who's running it, when they ran it.
  • 00:42:01
    If a complaint comes in about a traffic stop and that traffic stop was a result of a flock hit,
  • 00:42:07
    Obviously, Ms. Gonzalez would be investigating that or looking into that, especially if the complaint came into the PCO bid.
  • 00:42:14
    So she needs full access to this system in order to do her job and she will have it.
  • 00:42:19
    And again, I talked about the violations.
  • 00:42:23
    I can't stress that enough, the fact that misuse of this is a crime and that persons will be held accountable.
  • 00:42:32
    Data security, all the data that's captured is stored for a brief period of time on a local device and is quickly moved to a flock server and encrypted and then on.
  • 00:42:44
    It does not flock, does not partner with any third party, so everything in the system stays within the system and it's fully auditable.
  • 00:42:55
    These are a few of the transparency portals.
  • 00:42:57
    You can see, this is Warwick, Rhode Island.
  • 00:43:00
    You can see how many days they keep it.
  • 00:43:01
    It says up there on the far right, this one's 30 days, who has access to their system.
  • 00:43:07
    I tried looking for California, Governor Newsom just the other day, I think two days ago announced they purchased 480 flock cameras for California highways.
  • 00:43:19
    and I'm curious to look at their transparency portal.
  • 00:43:23
    This is San Diego, California's.
  • 00:43:25
    Again, they keep it for 30 days and it's longer.
  • 00:43:30
    This is just kind of the clipboard, couldn't get all of it on there, but you can go on and look at, you just Google transparency portal flock for any jurisdiction that has it and it's all out there.
  • 00:43:41
    This is Virginia.
  • 00:43:42
    As you can see, this is Culpeper, Virginia, where it says who they share it with and it goes much longer so you can see who we are, who has access to our cameras.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 00:43:52
    Now what does it mean to have access to your cameras?
  • 00:43:56
    Good question, sir.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:43:57
    So basically anybody who has flocks will say California.
  • 00:44:03
    They have 480 flock cameras.
  • 00:44:05
    California, if I allowed to have access to outside the Commonwealth of Virginia, they would be able to access our system.
  • 00:44:12
    So if they're looking for a murder suspect and they have a vehicle associated with that,
  • 00:44:19
    They could go in and view all flocks within the country and say, hey, does this tag, if it's gone through that camera, they would know and be able to alert the local jurisdiction.
  • 00:44:31
    That's what it means.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 00:44:32
    They have access to it.
  • 00:44:35
    The easiest way to think of it is
  • 00:44:38
    and tell me if this is correct is somebody types in license plate XYZ4567 and then somehow hits would come back saying oh that vehicle was seen in Des Moines, Iowa.
  • 00:44:52
    That's correct.
  • 00:44:55
    Is it that specific where you're querying it for a particular license plate or a particular description of a vehicle?
  • 00:45:03
    Either or.
  • 00:45:04
    What kind of a query goes in?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:45:05
    You could do either.
  • 00:45:05
    You could do a description.
  • 00:45:07
    Obviously, a description's not going to give you much.
  • 00:45:08
    I mean...
  • 00:45:09
    It'll give you too much.
  • 00:45:10
    Right.
  • 00:45:11
    It'll give you too much information.
  • 00:45:12
    It doesn't do you much help.
  • 00:45:14
    But yeah, you can also see if somebody queries our flock system, the same as our officers querying it, has the name of the person querying it, the jurisdiction and why they're doing it.
  • 00:45:26
    And so we would be alerted.
  • 00:45:27
    So we're going to block it off.
  • 00:45:29
    Nobody from outside of Commonwealth will be able to query our system.
  • 00:45:33
    But let's just say Newport News is looking for
  • 00:45:35
    You know, queries our system and looking for someone they might know just committed a violent offense or an offense that would qualify to be entered into NCIC, right?
  • 00:45:46
    They would be able to query our system, but they would be, we would know that they queried the system.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 00:45:51
    An out-of-state officer who was investigating and wanted access to Charlottesville's data could just call up Charlottesville PD and say, hey, can you check for me?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:46:02
    They could, but I'm committing to you that we're not doing that.
  • 00:46:05
    Okay.
  • 00:46:06
    From the outside, outside of the conflict, which may not make me very popular.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 00:46:11
    Well, I mean, you know, that's fine.
  • 00:46:13
    Thank you.
  • 00:46:14
    Yes, sir.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:46:18
    And this is summary.
  • 00:46:19
    I think I've kind of hit on all of these and the jurisdictions that are that are using it and the successes that they've had.
  • 00:46:24
    And I'm here to answer any questions at all.
  • 00:46:29
    Also, let me just say one other thing about technology in general.
  • 00:46:34
    I got into policing 25 years ago and cell phones didn't exist.
  • 00:46:38
    Now, I'm not the old guy in the room because I know I'm not.
  • 00:46:41
    But careful.
  • 00:46:44
    But they didn't, and you know, technology has done a lot.
  • 00:46:46
    We all have them in our pockets right now.
  • 00:46:49
    There's cameras everywhere.
  • 00:46:50
    You'll notice none of these flock cameras are in specific neighborhoods.
  • 00:46:52
    You know why?
  • 00:46:53
    Because there's already enough cameras in those neighborhoods.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 00:46:55
    You're not going to walk through a neighborhood in this city without being on video.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:46:58
    That's just a fact.
  • 00:47:00
    Do I like it?
  • 00:47:00
    No.
  • 00:47:01
    I don't think any of us really like it, but that's where we are.
  • 00:47:05
    And so I say all that to say that this is a tool.
  • 00:47:10
    This is one tool.
  • 00:47:12
    This isn't the silver bullet.
  • 00:47:14
    This isn't gonna solve everything.
  • 00:47:18
    But it is a data-driven approach that has shown to be effective in other jurisdictions that have used it.
  • 00:47:23
    There's a reason why California just purchased 480 of them.
  • 00:47:28
    It's been shown to work.
  • 00:47:32
    But I will also say this, that we have focused within our police department, not only on technology, but also on people.
  • 00:47:43
    We have invested significantly in bringing in trainers and courses and programs within our organization to teach a class on empathy, right?
  • 00:47:54
    There's no app that'll teach you about empathy, right?
  • 00:47:58
    It just doesn't exist.
  • 00:47:59
    I don't think it ever will.
  • 00:48:01
    So we're doing all the above.
  • 00:48:03
    It's yes and.
  • 00:48:06
    I wanted to kind of get that across because it's not just about technology.
  • 00:48:09
    We have a lot of it.
  • 00:48:09
    I know Major Nick back there, he messes with me all the time about technology.
  • 00:48:13
    I still ask for a three-ring binder with paper in it.
  • 00:48:18
    So we're doing it all.
  • 00:48:20
    We're not just relying on technology.
  • 00:48:22
    Our body-worn cameras are on all the time.
  • 00:48:24
    You hit it, you turn it on, it goes back 30 seconds.
  • 00:48:26
    So it's recording all the time.
  • 00:48:29
    You know, it's out there and it's important that we use it responsibly and that we are transparent about what we're using it for and that we answer for it.
  • 00:48:38
    With that I'll ask any questions.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 00:48:42
    So I think that what I'd like to do, we
  • 00:48:45
    We're not going to vote on, this is not something you vote on because it's in a pilot stage, but we would like to get comments from each person, or if you'd like to speak to see if there is a majority of us that will be in support of the City of Charlottesville using this technology.
  • 00:49:04
    So if we could just, we can just go around and kind of give you thoughts and your questions or input, and ultimately just kind of, you know, if you feel
  • 00:49:13
    like you're ready to give guidance on it.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:49:16
    So yeah, I'll be interested to hear what my other counselors have to say.
  • 00:49:19
    But sort of where I stand right now is I'm willing to give it a year long pilot.
  • 00:49:26
    I'd like some assurances that it like, we have to
  • 00:49:31
    has to be formally renewed somehow before it goes forward and I think one of the things I appreciate about what I've seen tonight and the conversations we've had is that you've clearly gone out and talked to people and you've adjusted your recommendations accordingly.
  • 00:49:50
    I think all of us worry about the amount of surveillance and technology that we're under.
  • 00:49:57
    But I also think it's just sort of the state of things.
  • 00:50:02
    Question for you.
  • 00:50:03
    So my son was living in DC and he got to know the traffic cameras there pretty well.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:50:10
    I think we all have it.
  • 00:50:13
    None of us are perfect.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:50:14
    Yeah.
  • 00:50:17
    We don't have that in this city now, obviously, but is what you're proposing sort of the same kind of technology?
  • 00:50:26
    I mean, it seems to me if I were living in a place like DC, in other words, what's being proposed here seems less invasive than what is in DC.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:50:37
    It is.
  • 00:50:38
    I will say that there are jurisdictions in Virginia that have speed cameras, but they can only use them in school zones and work zones, I believe.
  • 00:50:46
    And so that is different because you get a ticket in the mail and it's for traffic infractions.
  • 00:50:53
    This is not for that.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:50:55
    But in other words, it seems more onerous or Big Brother-ish, I guess, what's in D.C. than what would be proposed here.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:51:03
    Yeah, and it's more costly because you'd have to hire an officer to manage the program because by code an officer has to actually send the ticket to people, has to be a sworn officer.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:51:11
    In Virginia?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:51:12
    Yeah.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:51:13
    I was just trying to get a sense from a privacy perspective.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:51:16
    Yeah, it is different.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:51:17
    Yeah, and then body-worn cameras, so that's also a place in which people are being recorded whether they want to be or not during traffic stops, correct?
  • 00:51:30
    That's correct.
  • 00:51:32
    So it's not like there's not precedent in our community of some sort.
  • 00:51:36
    And this doesn't seem as invasive as a place like DC in terms of all their cameras.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:51:46
    And I can talk about technology, about body-worn cameras, just so you know.
  • 00:51:49
    I mean, the technology's out there, so there's nothing secret about it.
  • 00:51:52
    I could sit in my office and turn on an officer's body-worn camera and view what he's doing live on the street.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 00:52:00
    Yeah, that's good for accountability, I would think.
  • 00:52:04
    Yeah, so I have concerns about this, but I think that we hired you to help us solve crime and to do the things that you feel like professionally make the most sense for our city.
  • 00:52:19
    I know that there's no panacea, but I think that this could be a good tool.
  • 00:52:26
    So I support it.
  • 00:52:31
    subject to the qualifications that you laid out.
  • 00:52:34
    I'm especially grateful that we have the PCOB.
  • 00:52:37
    I think this is another good example of why having a PCOB is a good thing for us.
• • Michael Payne
  • 00:52:43
    So a couple of questions for the PCOB executive director.
  • 00:52:49
    I'm curious to kind of hear your thoughts about how you would perceive auditing this monitoring with working in practice and
  • 00:52:58
    Does the capacity exist to do that?
  • 00:53:01
    Because it's just so much data.
  • 00:53:02
    I'm wondering how that would work in practice.
• • SPEAKER_10
  • 00:53:04
    And that seems to be the question that I'm getting that's of most concern to the community so that the people understand I do not have the capability to audit every single solitary car that goes through the flock system.
  • 00:53:14
    It's impossible that even the police department has the manpower to do that.
  • 00:53:18
    The only thing that I can commit to from the PCOB's perspective is to random audits.
  • 00:53:23
    And that would mean, you know, given that there's no other priority in investigation or complaint that I'm looking at, then yes, I will theoretically have the ability to go into the system and audit.
  • 00:53:33
    As the chief explained, I can do one or two officers.
  • 00:53:36
    I can do as many officers as whatever it is I have time to do on that particular day.
  • 00:53:39
    But it's only the interaction with the officer and the technology and not the technology itself.
  • 00:53:45
    So it'll be limited to just a very small number in terms of the grand scheme of things where you're going to talk about, I'm guessing, thousands of vehicles that are going to be going through the flock system on any given day.
• • Michael Payne
  • 00:53:57
    And I guess from your perspective in the role that you're in, do you have any kind of thoughts, concerns, or remaining questions about the system or experiences you've seen in other localities in terms of how they've...
• • SPEAKER_10
  • 00:54:10
    So sadly, I am the old person in the room.
  • 00:54:13
    In terms at least from the policing perspective.
  • 00:54:16
    So I haven't dealt with flock specifically.
  • 00:54:18
    I have not been trained in the use of flock.
  • 00:54:20
    I haven't interacted with the people from flock, so I don't know a whole lot about it at this point.
  • 00:54:24
    Based on the systems that we've used in the past, again, the system itself has the ability to audit itself.
  • 00:54:31
    I know there is a tracking mechanism, but again,
  • 00:54:34
    If we're going to only deal with retention for a seven-day period, for example, I'm limited to that seven-day period, so I'd have to actually try to schedule something every seven days.
  • 00:54:43
    Again, the sheer volume makes it impossible for us to go through every single solitary interaction.
  • 00:54:48
    That I don't have the ability to do.
  • 00:54:50
    The only other issue obviously is from the
  • 00:54:53
    I've got some additional questions on that front.
  • 00:55:04
    I had a note about capacity as well.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 00:55:19
    But following up on some of the things you just mentioned,
  • 00:55:22
    Are you going to, I assume you would, if this were to proceed, you would get training on all of those?
• • SPEAKER_10
  • 00:55:29
    That would have to be, that's absolutely necessary.
  • 00:55:31
    Again, I have no experience whatsoever with blocking.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:55:33
    Yeah, so, and towards the end, I know the city manager was going to ask me a question, but I'll get right into it.
  • 00:55:38
    Next, kind of next steps.
  • 00:55:41
    We would be obviously developing our policy first and then department-wide training, which Ines would be involved in as well.
  • 00:55:48
    The first step for Ines has already been done with the CEGIS training so that you can access to certain things.
  • 00:55:54
    But yeah, we're probably, depending on where we go today, we're probably looking
  • 00:55:58
    probably about four months before something gets rolled out.
  • 00:56:00
    And then there'll be a communication strategy in order to make sure the community knows, okay, these are up, they're now active, this is where they are, and all of that.
  • 00:56:09
    So it's a process, but absolutely, Anez would be part of that training.
• • SPEAKER_10
  • 00:56:12
    And we also had a discussion in terms of the policy itself.
  • 00:56:14
    Once the policy is created in draft version, which there is one already, but once it's revised, we're going to be looking at the policy itself to see if there's any questions that come up that would be of concern to the Police and Vain Oversight Board.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 00:56:25
    And you mentioned a couple seconds ago that the system can audit itself.
  • 00:56:29
    What do you mean by that?
• • SPEAKER_10
  • 00:56:30
    Well, in other words, there's a tracking mechanism.
  • 00:56:32
    So there's no activity that can be taken in the system.
  • 00:56:35
    Same thing applies to NCIC, SCIC, all of those systems.
  • 00:56:39
    There's a way to actually
  • 00:56:41
    pull up a report that will show you exactly who's using it, when they're using, what were they using it for.
  • 00:56:47
    So you can actually produce an actual report.
  • 00:56:49
    I'm assuming if Flock is anything like the old systems, you'll be able to do that as well.
  • 00:56:53
    So within, let's say that seven day retention period, if he assigns someone from his department to actually print up a report of all activity,
  • 00:57:00
    That flock is engaged in, he'll be able to produce that type of report.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 00:57:03
    So it doesn't have red flags on itself.
  • 00:57:06
    You would still be auditing, but it just has logs that track.
• • SPEAKER_10
  • 00:57:10
    Which is important because if there's an issue down the line, let's just say there's an investigation.
  • 00:57:14
    Someone comes to me, not within that seven day period.
  • 00:57:16
    If that information is already lost, then it makes it very difficult for me to go back and try to backtrack.
  • 00:57:21
    So.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 00:57:22
    Right.
  • 00:57:23
    The timeline I'm not as concerned by.
  • 00:57:25
    I just wondered what you meant by self-audit.
  • 00:57:27
    It's really not a self-audit.
  • 00:57:28
    It's the ability to pull a report.
  • 00:57:30
    Right.
• • SPEAKER_10
  • 00:57:30
    In other words, it's a tracking mechanism.
  • 00:57:33
    So I misspoke.
  • 00:57:33
    It's actually a tracking mechanism of all activity that's engaged in the system.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 00:57:37
    Okay.
  • 00:57:38
    Thanks.
  • 00:57:38
    And do you know how I, you know, this is part of the policy building, I guess, but it would be interesting to hear how you would present those audits.
  • 00:57:45
    What is your
  • 00:57:49
    Well, for what it would be to ensure that no particular officer is going into the system utilizing it for an unauthorized purpose.
• • SPEAKER_10
  • 00:58:02
    If we're looking at the system, say, for example, to track the activity of a particular individual, for example, that doesn't have, that's not associated directly with one of the crimes that it was entered into the NCIC system for.
  • 00:58:14
    So, and again, this is all theoretical because I don't know how it works.
  • 00:58:17
    Correct.
  • 00:58:17
    Okay.
  • 00:58:18
    Thank you.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 00:58:19
    Those are my questions for Ms. Gonzalez.
  • 00:58:26
    Does anyone have other questions for her?
  • 00:58:27
    Because I've got more for the chief.
  • 00:58:31
    Thank you.
  • 00:58:33
    Just in terms of presenting information, as you just kind of touched on, you had presented the heat map of the shootings and the car thefts, but then when you presented the list of where the proposed locations are for the cameras, it was just a list of them.
  • 00:58:49
    I think it would be helpful to have that on a map as well, so it just is presenting the information in a comparable way.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:58:56
    So that's a great point.
  • 00:58:57
    We actually had that, but it was like really confusing.
  • 00:59:00
    But what we can do is when we do our community outreach or communications that we're going to do it, we'll do that.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 00:59:06
    OK, that would have been helpful.
  • 00:59:08
    I know the names of all those places, but where they are is.
  • 00:59:12
    Absolutely.
  • 00:59:13
    Thanks.
  • 00:59:14
    Can the cameras capture people walking or biking or faces or is it somehow, how does it work to only capture license plates?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 00:59:26
    So the cameras are actually installed in a way
  • 00:59:30
    Primarily to catch the rear of the vehicle.
  • 00:59:33
    That's what they're installing.
  • 00:59:34
    And Major Nick, you're here so you could probably correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I think I'm saying this correctly.
  • 00:59:41
    To capture the rear of a vehicle.
  • 00:59:42
    Now, if it's capturing the rear of a vehicle and somebody's riding a bike, theoretically, I think, could that happen?
  • 00:59:49
    I'm not going to sit here and lie to you and say it can't because I don't know, but I'm assuming if it's next to the car that's taking a picture, it could.
  • 00:59:56
    But I have not seen or heard of that.
• • SPEAKER_18
  • 00:59:59
    So the system knows how to recognize what is a vehicle, what it's not.
  • 01:00:03
    So any pedestrian, bicycle, things of that nature that doesn't meet the characteristics that the AI system of the camera is using to determine, okay, that is a motorcycle or a car, it will not capture that recorded.
  • 01:00:16
    It does take front pictures of a vehicle.
  • 01:00:20
    And this is one of those things that we're going to have to wait till we get the system.
  • 01:00:23
    It all depends on how the camera is set up, the specific geographic, I guess, area of the camera.
  • 01:00:30
    But for the most part, they do try to focus on the rear of the vehicle just because there are several states out here that do not have front license plates.
  • 01:00:37
    They just put license plates on the rear.
  • 01:00:40
    But there are situations at which it could be a front capture.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:00:43
    And so just to follow up on that, you said it all depends on how it's set up.
  • 01:00:47
    So if that hasn't been determined yet, how have the locations been chosen?
• • SPEAKER_18
  • 01:00:54
    We've worked with traffic engineering to determine what are some of the most traveled areas in the city.
  • 01:01:01
    Obviously, with only doing 10 cameras, we can't put it on every major thoroughfare on this city.
  • 01:01:06
    So we're more looking at kind of the, I guess, the exterior outer perimeter of the city as far as determining locations.
  • 01:01:14
    What I mean by setup, there's different variations.
  • 01:01:17
    In some cases, it might be a standalone pole that Flock would come in and install the camera at one.
  • 01:01:22
    or it could be existing city poles or structuring that the camera would be placed on.
  • 01:01:29
    And that can depend on the actual height that the camera's mounted, the angle towards the area that it's trying to capture.
  • 01:01:39
    Is it two lanes, four lanes or one lane that the camera is capturing?
  • 01:01:43
    There's a lot of different variables that
  • 01:01:46
    We just don't know exactly how that image is going to appear until...
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:01:49
    So the locations were based off traffic, not necessarily on existing infrastructure.
• • SPEAKER_18
  • 01:01:55
    Yeah, no, we looked at traffic.
  • 01:01:56
    We looked, if we're trying to figure out a way to get a good idea of, you know, those that might be committing a crime and fleeing the city, what are the more areas that are traveled the most likely route for them trying to leave the city or to that a stolen vehicle coming in or out or a AMBER Alert coming in and out.
  • 01:02:17
    So we did, we looked at the major thoroughfares.
  • 01:02:20
    I know in our original study there was 26 locations that Flock said is probably good, but we're not trying to go down that road.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:02:36
    Something to clarify, you mentioned that a lot of the shootings and all of the murders involved a car.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:02:48
    It involved a car one way or another, yes.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:02:51
    I'll give you an example.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:02:54
    The murder that occurred on Ellywood Drive.
  • 01:02:59
    The person was murdered in a parking lot and a suspect jumped into a silver four-door sedan and fled.
  • 01:03:05
    It involved a vehicle as a getaway vehicle.
  • 01:03:07
    The murder that occurred on Hardy Drive.
  • 01:03:12
    The vehicle had pulled up to meet with somebody.
  • 01:03:15
    A person walked up to the vehicle and shot and killed the person inside of the vehicle.
  • 01:03:20
    So just different, the murder that occurred somewhere around this time last year, actually probably around March of last year.
  • 01:03:27
    A person was killed inside of a vehicle while they were parked, but the car was driving around prior with the person, so it would have been able to track.
  • 01:03:36
    Those are just three examples.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:03:37
    Okay, thanks.
  • 01:03:39
    What will trigger the review of footage?
  • 01:03:41
    You mentioned that an alert alone is not enough.
  • 01:03:45
    There must be an independent review by an officer.
  • 01:03:48
    What does that mean?
  • 01:03:49
    What is the actual process?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:03:52
    Yeah, so I'll give you an example.
  • 01:03:54
    If a stolen vehicle, a tag goes through one of the flock cameras, an alert goes out to the officers who are working.
  • 01:04:02
    This vehicle just went through this camera.
  • 01:04:04
    It's a blue four-door sedan.
  • 01:04:06
    The officer can get in the area and try to locate that blue four-door sedan, but can't pull them over just based on that alert.
  • 01:04:12
    They have to get behind it, run the tag themselves, confirm that it is in fact that stolen vehicle, and then stop it.
  • 01:04:19
    That's what it means.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:04:20
    I'm not familiar with all of the specific steps of how police jobs work, but is there a point where there would need to be a warrant process to proceed with some kind of
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:04:40
    No, because the photograph of your license plate is like you walking down the street and someone can take a picture of your license plate.
  • 01:04:48
    It's for public view, so there's no expectation of privacy for the photo of your vehicle.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:04:52
    But then to proceed with whatever you do next?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:04:56
    Well, it would depend.
  • 01:04:57
    It would just depend on the case, circumstances, a lot of things around it.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:05:05
    What officers would have access to the system?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:05:08
    All sworn officers.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:05:10
    All sworn officers?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:05:11
    Correct.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:05:12
    How many is that?
  • 01:05:13
    109.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:05:13
    It depends what you guys do with the budget.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:05:24
    Have the city attorney's office reviewed the contract and fine print for all of this?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:05:36
    I need to hear from you all first before we keep moving further, but they will.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:05:40
    Okay.
  • 01:05:44
    There have been some cases of video or database error that have led to wrongful detentions and arrests from information gleaned from the block system.
  • 01:05:55
    So we know that the police association is covering the costs of the pilot.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:05:59
    Police foundation.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:06:00
    Police foundation, pardon me.
  • 01:06:03
    If the police do something wrong based on data collected from the flock system and there needs to be a court settlement or court fees, will the police foundation cover those costs as well or would that be something the city would be forced to foot the bill for?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:06:18
    So I'm going to try to unpack your questions.
  • 01:06:20
    So first, I don't know what cases you're talking about, about specific cases involving wrongful detention.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:06:25
    Yeah, there's been some cases where the license plate reads a 7 instead of a 3, and so the car gets pulled over, the occupants are held at gunpoint, they sue for wrongful detention, and then the city owes a payout.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:06:40
    So the question you had prior to this is the exact reason why we have that verbiage.
  • 01:06:45
    So an officer cannot just pull a car over based on a flock hit.
  • 01:06:48
    They have to get behind that vehicle, come up with what's called your own reasonable, articulable suspicion to pull the vehicle over to prevent just that.
  • 01:06:57
    If that doesn't happen,
  • 01:06:58
    then I would say that officer is liable and therefore the city would be liable.
  • 01:07:03
    But that would happen if we didn't have flock and an officer were to do something.
  • 01:07:08
    I mean, there's lots of scenarios where an officer could be held liable or the city could be held liable, whether it be a flocket or not.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:07:18
    Okay.
  • 01:07:20
    So the foundation is funding the pilot program.
  • 01:07:24
    is the theory at the end of the pilot program, the city then steps forward to continue funding or would the foundation continue funding?
  • 01:07:33
    And if so, for how long?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:07:34
    Well, I think that has to be a conversation when we get to that point.
  • 01:07:37
    I have to stand in front of you all and say, we're either going to continue it or not after a year and go from there.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:07:44
    Okay.
  • 01:07:45
    And a lot of the metrics
  • 01:07:51
    are hard to determine, right?
  • 01:07:53
    We don't know the crimes that weren't committed.
  • 01:07:55
    So as in our conversations before, you've said it's hard to tell if this has actually been part of the crime reduction process.
  • 01:08:04
    I mean, we know everything from housing security to a reduced quantity of lead in the air has led to crime reductions.
• • SPEAKER_42
  • 01:08:10
    Absolutely.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:08:10
    So for the data that you're looking at from other localities, you've alluded to it, but what is
  • 01:08:21
    How are you going to present that data to us?
  • 01:08:23
    What are you looking at from those other localities and is there any actual concrete data for that?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:08:29
    So how do you measure success when it comes to reduction in crime?
  • 01:08:33
    Right.
  • 01:08:34
    And so I've said this to you all as your chief would love to stand up here and say, great, we've had a reduction in part one crime in 2023.
  • 01:08:42
    It's all because of the police.
  • 01:08:44
    That's I can't say that because there's so much that goes into addressing specifically violent crime in the community, especially when you start talking about the root causes of violent crime.
  • 01:08:55
    Housing, you made a perfect example.
  • 01:08:57
    You know, we were talking about it earlier and the city manager and I have talked about this before as well.
  • 01:09:01
    You know, addressing the housing issues, that is a way to reduce crime in a community.
  • 01:09:09
    And so, but this, I believe this is as well.
  • 01:09:13
    I think it's a yes and.
  • 01:09:16
    It's all the above approach.
  • 01:09:20
    So just to say one specific thing, I don't think that's fair.
  • 01:09:24
    I will say that jurisdictions that have implemented this, since they've implemented it, have seen a reduction in violent crime.
  • 01:09:33
    Is it fair to say that's the only reason they've seen a reduction in violent crime?
  • 01:09:36
    I don't know what they're doing in their communities.
  • 01:09:39
    I would suspect it's not, but it's a piece.
  • 01:09:42
    It's a piece of it.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:09:45
    Okay.
  • 01:09:45
    Because I've made this point before to you and to some other people in this room, but I'll repeat it for everyone else.
  • 01:09:58
    Enforcement occurs after a crime has already been committed.
  • 01:10:01
    So it's still reactive.
  • 01:10:02
    And for all of these crimes that you're discussing here involving cars, the best way to reduce car violence is to reduce cars.
  • 01:10:11
    That's the point that I'm always going to stand by.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:10:13
    And I think I will say this, ma'am.
  • 01:10:22
    The example I gave of what happened up on Ridge Street in Lankford about the shooting that happened there, if we could get ahead of that sooner, we don't have to worry about the retaliation of that shooting.
  • 01:10:34
    So that would be a way that we could reduce it before that second shooting happened.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:10:49
    I've got a longer list I'm kind of calling from if anyone else wants to jump in.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:10:53
    I'd be more than willing to meet with you when I want to answer any of your questions.
• • Michael Payne
  • 01:10:58
    I just have just a couple more questions.
  • 01:11:02
    So in the policy, are there going to be permissible uses in which this data could be pooled?
  • 01:11:08
    I know it couldn't be used for immigration enforcement traffic violations, but would it be limited to like AMBER alerts, violent crimes, vehicle thefts, or could it be used as part of any criminal investigation?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:11:19
    We would lay that out on our policy, exactly what it could be used for.
• • Michael Payne
  • 01:11:22
    And then a few other questions some members of the community had.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:11:28
    And I'm sorry, real quick too.
  • 01:11:30
    And not only will it be in our policy, the transparency portal, if you look at those on there, it says what it can be used for and what it can't be used for.
  • 01:11:36
    And we plan on doing the same.
• • Michael Payne
  • 01:11:38
    All right, so I get, just try to understand it in my mind.
  • 01:11:41
    So as a follow-up to that, like, would it be a permissible use for, say,
  • 01:11:46
    Cool.
  • 01:11:47
    Every vehicle at 3 a.m. that was passing in this area when the volume could theoretically be low enough where you could kind of ascertain a lower number of vehicle, make models, license plates.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:11:58
    Well, I mean, so if we had a homicide involving a vehicle that was a green four-door at three o'clock in the morning, they could look for a green four-door that at three o'clock in the morning, I went through those cameras.
  • 01:12:11
    Does that
  • 01:12:12
    I mean, we can't just, we're not, you have to have a legitimate reason to be searching for something.
• • Michael Payne
  • 01:12:19
    Yeah, like, I guess, you know, not being in neighborhoods, it's less of a concern given that it's at those entry and exit ways to the city, but just kind of in theory, if it would be permissible to, particularly at a low volume time, just look at every vehicle that went through.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:12:36
    I would say that would be misuse to just randomly look at every vehicle that went through a camera for no legitimate law enforcement purpose.
• • Michael Payne
  • 01:12:45
    And then just two other questions.
  • 01:12:51
    Have there been scientific studies to this point that have evaluated the effectiveness of the flock system and whether it reduces crime or not?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:13:01
    I don't know and I suspect not.
  • 01:13:05
    I don't know.
• • Michael Payne
  • 01:13:06
    And then the final question is, is there a reason for pursuing this system rather than like a shots fired system?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:13:15
    So we, so Flock also does ShotSpotter.
  • 01:13:18
    They have ShotSpot that you're talking about.
  • 01:13:21
    So ShotSpotter is used in other jurisdictions.
  • 01:13:23
    I think Portsmouth is using it now with the Flock system.
  • 01:13:27
    The challenge in Charlottesville with ShotSpotter is it's hilly and the acoustics come, they're not, it's just wouldn't be effective.
  • 01:13:36
    We'd have a lot of missed reports.
  • 01:13:39
    And so we did not make that recommendation.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:13:43
    Okay.
  • 01:13:44
    Those are all the questions I have.
  • 01:13:45
    Thank you, sir.
  • 01:13:46
    Lloyd, what are your thoughts?
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 01:13:49
    I don't really have any questions.
  • 01:13:50
    I've looked into it a fair amount through some legal sources as well as meeting with Chief and others.
  • 01:13:59
    I think that the changes that you have recommended
  • 01:14:06
    The Seven Days, the other restrictions, and the fact that we would be taking a look at it in a year are all very encouraging to me.
  • 01:14:17
    I think it's a system that has potential both for being useful and also for being abused.
  • 01:14:26
    And one of the ways we would find out is to look at it and to report on it and to account for it.
  • 01:14:37
    I've talked with a number of, I have to say, when my email has been burning up recently, one of the topics it's been burning up over is crime.
  • 01:14:47
    And crime in neighborhoods that, at least one of the neighborhoods would be a neighborhood that there would be, there'd be a flock camera basically right next to where they're talking about.
  • 01:15:05
    It's a neighborhood where there has been a significant increase in other criminal activities.
  • 01:15:11
    So I can imagine in a case like that, that it would be useful.
  • 01:15:16
    And I can imagine and I know from having heard from the residents that they're anxious that basically
  • 01:15:23
    anything that has a reasonable chance of cutting down on criminal activity in their neighborhood and be used.
  • 01:15:32
    That doesn't mean we automatically do whatever they want in that respect, but I think that the changes that you've made to the policy and the fact that we can review it in a year may make it a good way to approach it as a pilot program.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:15:46
    And sir, what I will say is I'll come back to you quarterly.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:15:51
    Michael, I've got that.
  • 01:15:53
    So Lloyd, it sounds like you would be supportive of the pilot.
  • 01:15:57
    Michael, what are your thoughts?
  • 01:15:58
    I'm not sure if I... Sure.
• • Michael Payne
  • 01:16:00
    Yeah.
  • 01:16:01
    And this is nothing I haven't shared over email or in conversation.
  • 01:16:05
    But as I've said, I do understand the motivation in terms of
  • 01:16:10
    Perhaps the most critical activity is solving a murder and making sure that family has justice.
  • 01:16:16
    And I also understand that this is just one tool to do so that doesn't necessarily need to involve a direct confrontation between an officer and a suspect and provides a little bit more of an objective data source.
  • 01:16:30
    And I completely understand that.
  • 01:16:32
    And I'm also guessing there's
  • 01:16:34
    Quite a few people around the state who are wondering what in the world you've done and that as my understanding you could have just signed off on this and the city doesn't need to provide funding immediately so it could have just been done but I think this was the exact correct process to go to the community to bring this to council to have a public conversation about it.
  • 01:16:54
    I'll just say again, though, I mean, when it comes to state surveillance in civil liberties, I mean, I'm just a libertarian on that issue.
  • 01:17:04
    That's just where I come from.
  • 01:17:05
    And my concern is not even just potential for local misuse, but the fact that it's part of a private company maintaining a national database that is invested in by Palantir Technologies, which has a private surveillance system.
  • 01:17:22
    And so the concern is not even just
  • 01:17:24
    what may be done locally, but how they may utilize that long-term within their national system and the other surveillance technologies they have in place.
  • 01:17:33
    I understand we already have stingrays.
  • 01:17:34
    As you mentioned, we've got cameras everywhere.
  • 01:17:36
    We've got Amazon Ring cameras, but this is one thing we have a decision point over, and particularly without seeing the specific verbiage of the contract and the policy.
  • 01:17:49
    I do get it, and I applaud that this deliberative process was done, but I just,
  • 01:17:54
    In terms of what I believe, I just can't get myself there in terms of supporting it.
  • 01:17:59
    I respect that.
  • 01:17:59
    Thank you.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:18:01
    So do you?
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:18:03
    I just have a couple.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:18:04
    OK, because we want to we don't have a closed session, but we want to.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:18:10
    So for the presentation, so, you know, the pilot is going to be a like
  • 01:18:18
    I think of it like a science fair project.
  • 01:18:20
    You have a theory, you have a protocol, you come up with metrics, what you're looking for.
  • 01:18:24
    Does it meet those metrics or not?
  • 01:18:27
    And then write your presentation at the end and what happened?
  • 01:18:30
    Was there anything unexpected?
  • 01:18:32
    It's just like any other report.
  • 01:18:35
    So what metrics are you going to be looking for?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:18:39
    So I think there could be several.
  • 01:18:42
    I mean, I would say it's like a science project.
  • 01:18:46
    I would say that I would come back quarterly and report success stories.
  • 01:18:51
    What are we using it for?
  • 01:18:54
    Have we solved cases involving violent crime?
  • 01:19:01
    And so I think there's lots of things that you can measure.
  • 01:19:05
    As we were just speaking about, this isn't the only thing that's going to address crime in this city.
  • 01:19:12
    It's much more complex than that.
  • 01:19:13
    Again, this is just an investigative tool for our officers to use and for us to help bring some closure to families that are experiencing this, to know that when we have a shooting in someone's home and they call me or come show me the bullet hole in their home plugged with tissue paper so the breeze don't come in, that we have done everything in our power and that we have done everything with our resources available to us
  • 01:19:43
    to help make them feel a little bit more comfortable that they're not going to come back and that we've been able to hold that person accountable.
  • 01:19:50
    So I know that's not a direct answer to your question, but I will report back to you, not just at the end of the one year pilot, but I'll come in front of you quarterly and I'll answer any questions that you have.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:20:02
    Yeah, since it's been called a data-driven software, I do want there to be concrete data.
  • 01:20:06
    I don't totally understand the moving effects of an anecdote, but if we have a baseline, this is where we are on these five metrics, and then after we've implemented it, here's the change that we've made, that's going to be useful.
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:20:19
    Absolutely.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:20:20
    And then I know that the, back to the funding, it comes, and this is where I echo a lot of what, first, I echo a lot of what Michael just recapped with his appreciation of the process and qualms about the nature of the product.
  • 01:20:44
    The funding source is via the Police Foundation, which
  • 01:20:50
    does not have to disclose its donors' sources to us.
  • 01:20:54
    Do you know who the donor is?
  • 01:20:56
    I'm not going to ask you to identify the person or the institution or the company, but do you get that information?
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:21:04
    The person who is funding it or the organization is the police foundation.
  • 01:21:08
    I don't know who all their donors are.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:21:10
    Okay, so whoever donates to the police foundation is kept anonymous to the...
• • SPEAKER_19
  • 01:21:15
    It's my understanding they also get money through grants and like any other nonprofit.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:21:19
    OK.
  • 01:21:23
    So where do you stand?
  • 01:21:26
    We're trying to, you know, we're not.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:21:28
    I think Michael said everything perfectly.
  • 01:21:30
    I'm just going to second what he said.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:21:32
    So, and I want to thank all of my colleagues and everyone for the input and questions.
  • 01:21:38
    This is very good.
  • 01:21:39
    This is the process that we want.
  • 01:21:40
    I particularly want to thank Chief Kochis for his outreach on this.
  • 01:21:45
    I know it was a lot to do.
  • 01:21:47
    And, you know, I've been on council now for 27 months, and this is probably one more difficult decisions I've made because I understand that
  • 01:21:55
    this could potentially misuse of this information could impact the community of color of people that look like me at a higher rate.
  • 01:22:04
    I appreciate the outreach that you've done because I've heard from the individuals, but also did my own outreach to the community over the last 30 years.
  • 01:22:13
    Just developed a lot of just wonderful community outreach, whether it's from ministers, community leaders, both young and old.
  • 01:22:24
    And I leaned on them in this particular situation.
  • 01:22:31
    and I also talked with contacts in Richmond where it's also in use as a pilot, I believe.
  • 01:22:38
    When I reached out to the public, I shared the same concerns that we talked about today about concerns of over-policing and the kind of the big brothers.
  • 01:22:47
    I shared that with them and for the most part, they understood that.
  • 01:22:51
    But it was overwhelming support.
  • 01:22:53
    What I heard is that they want the police to have this tool.
  • 01:22:57
    And just on occasion, you know, we mentioned this in Richmond, the police were able to apprehend some suspects over a young girl who was shot in a crossfire.
  • 01:23:10
    They were able to identify some suspects in that.
  • 01:23:14
    as well as a shooting that was just a few blocks away from the police station where there was a partial color of it.
  • 01:23:20
    And I understand that these are like anecdotes, but these are situations where a crime, sex potentially have been caught.
  • 01:23:30
    And I can't verify these things, but I feel comfortable that
  • 01:23:35
    that they're true.
  • 01:23:38
    And based on this input, I'm going to support the use of Flock as a pilot.
  • 01:23:43
    I am, you know, looking forward to those interim updates and Natalie had mentioned kind of a baseline data of where we are now and what, you know, the difference that we will see
  • 01:23:56
    And, you know, during the 221s, we asked some difficult questions.
  • 01:24:01
    And in particular, Lloyd leaned on this because I had a concern like, I understand it's going to be within the Commonwealth of Virginia, but what if you have a jurisdiction that may want to share it with someone else outside of the Commonwealth and they have to go through that same process of putting in the purpose and the use of the information as well?
  • 01:24:22
    While it's not perfect, I will support and I look forward to the interim updates and so thank you so much.
  • 01:24:30
    Any other questions or comments at this point?

6. NO CLOSED MEETING (Council in Recess)

• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:24:35
    At this point, there's no closed session and we'll come back here at
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 01:24:41
    I'm sorry, did you want to say something?
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:24:46
    Yes, so you have, thank you, yes.
  • 01:24:51
    We're going to come back at 6.30, and for those who will be joining us by Zoom, that will be a different link.
  • 01:24:58
    So I see you all back here in about 30, 35, 40 minutes.

7. BUSINESS SESSION

• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:26:01
    Thank you all for your patience.
  • 01:26:02
    We're going to start our 6.30 regular City Council meeting.
  • 01:26:07
    We didn't have a closed session, so we don't have to come out of that.

8. Moment of Silence

• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:26:12
    We're going to start with a moment of silence.
  • 01:26:23
    Thank you, thank you very much.

9. Announcements

• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:26:26
    We are now going to have, are there any announcements?
  • 01:26:29
    Yes.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 01:26:30
    I've been asked to announce that the delegation from Besançon, our sister city in France, will be arriving in Charlottesville on Friday, April 12th, and will stay through Wednesday, April 17th.
  • 01:26:44
    It's the first official municipal exchange between Besançon and Charlottesville since 2018.
  • 01:26:50
    And as part of the delegation visit, the Sister Cities Commission in Charlottesville is hosting three events open to the public.
  • 01:27:00
    Everyone's invited to attend.
  • 01:27:02
    One is a concert Sunday afternoon from 4 to 6 p.m.
  • 01:27:06
    April 14th, Les Amitiers Musicals, it'd be at Grisham Hall Auditorium in St. Ann's, Bellefield on Ivy Road.
  • 01:27:15
    Then on Monday, April 15th from 12 to 2, Sister Revolution's podcast launch
  • 01:27:22
    at Jefferson Hall, those owned as Hotel C on UVA grounds.
  • 01:27:27
    And then on Tuesday, April 16th, from 6 to 730, at the Create Gallery at InBio in the Silk Mills on Harris Street, a public event with the Besançon delegation to recognize the 20th anniversary of the signing of our joint proclamation of friendship.
  • 01:27:46
    The festivities will include food, music, and a special presentation about bezanson prepared by the delegation.
  • 01:27:51
    All are welcome.
• • Michael Payne
  • 01:27:54
    And I have one that we got literally a minute ago.
  • 01:27:57
    Yes.
  • 01:27:58
    But there will be a community celebration honoring the parents of the Charlottesville 12 at Carver Rec Center at 1 p.m. on Saturday, April 13th.
  • 01:28:09
    The Charlottesville 12 are the first 12 African American students to attend Charlottesville's previously segregated public schools.
  • 01:28:15
    Integration was highly resisted and it took a judicial order for the students to walk safely through the doors and begin their studies.
  • 01:28:22
    There will be honors and tributes to the Charlottesville 12 parents and students, musical performances and refreshments courtesy of the Ebony Club.
  • 01:28:29
    sponsored by Wegmans and with Charlottesville Parks and Recreation as a partner as well.
  • 01:28:35
    Again, that will be Saturday, April 13th at 1 p.m. at Carver Rec Center.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:28:42
    Any other announcements?

10. Recognitions/Proclamations

• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:28:44
    We have one proclamation.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 01:28:50
    April 2nd through 8th, 2024 is Charlottesville Dark Sky Week.
  • 01:28:56
    Whereas International Dark Sky Week is a worldwide celebration of the dark and natural night, and whereas the aesthetic beauty and wonder of a natural night sky is a shared heritage of all humankind, the experience of standing beneath a starry night sky inspires feelings of wonder and awe and encourages a growing interest in science and nature.
  • 01:29:14
    And whereas 80% of the world's population, including many people in Charlottesville, lives under a dome of light pollution, which is excessive artificial lighting at night that disrupts natural darkness, and may never experience the visual wonder or ecological and health benefits of living under a dark sky.
  • 01:29:31
    And whereas scientists link light pollution to global insect decline, the death of millions of migrating birds, increased carbon emissions and disease,
  • 01:29:40
    And whereas light pollution represents roughly 3 billion per year of wasted energy in the United States and contributes to diminished energy security.
  • 01:29:48
    And whereas the Dark Skies Piedmont Group was formed in 2023 to an enthusiastic response from the city of Charlottesville and surrounding counties, raising awareness of light pollution and providing education, resources, and solutions to encourage the protection of and enjoyment of dark skies and responsible outdoor lighting.
  • 01:30:05
    Now, therefore, the Charlottesville City Council proclaims the week of April 2nd through 8th, 2024 as Dark Sky Week, and we ask residents to observe and ponder upon this important week and to join in raising awareness and support for protecting our dark sky resources on this week and throughout the year.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:30:21
    Okay, is Christine Putnam, is she here?
• • SPEAKER_23
  • 01:30:41
    Well my name is Peggy Cornette and I'm a resident of Charlottesville in the Belmont area.
  • 01:30:47
    And on behalf of the Piedmont Dark Skies Group, the astronomers, nationalists, lighting specialists, and members of local environmental groups, we want to thank you for your support in addressing light pollution by declaring Charlottesville International Dark Sky Week, April 2nd through the 8th, 2024.
  • 01:31:07
    As you just said, light pollution is causing nights to become almost 10% brighter every year.
  • 01:31:13
    The disappearing darkness not only limits our view of the stars, but it also has serious implications for the health of all living things on the planet.
  • 01:31:23
    For billions of years, all biological processes have evolved with the Earth's predictable rhythm of night and day.
  • 01:31:28
    It is encoded in our DNA.
  • 01:31:32
    Lighting up the night disrupts this predictable cycle.
  • 01:31:36
    In addition, excessive outdoor lighting is disorienting and often fatal for migrating birds and nocturnal flying insects.
  • 01:31:44
    International Dark Sky Week sits in the middle of the North American bird migration period.
  • 01:31:49
    We hope that the City of Charlottesville will enforce its new lighting ordinance and take steps to further address light pollution and that our fellow citizens will take the simple action of turning off all lights which do not serve a clear purpose.
  • 01:32:04
    We invite everyone to step outside at night and look into the sky to connect with the larger universe.
  • 01:32:11
    We are grateful for this proclamation which brings the issue of light pollution to the attention of Charlottesville residents.
  • 01:32:18
    We can all do something to reduce useful over lighting.
  • 01:32:22
    And if you must leave a light on in front of your house all night, please consider using a yellow bug light instead of the white lights that a lot of people have on their front porches.
  • 01:32:33
    Thank you very much.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:32:34
    Thank you.
  • 01:32:35
    Thank you very much.
  • 01:32:41
    OK, we're now at the point for community matters.
  • 01:32:44
    There are eight pre-registered speakers, leaving eight slots for additional speakers on community matters.
  • 01:32:51
    If one of the first eight speakers is absent, then the person on the wait list will take that slide.
  • 01:32:59
    Each speaker will have up to three minutes to speak.
  • 01:33:02
    We'll open the floor.
  • 01:33:03
    Please give your name and your residence, please.
  • 01:33:07
    The first speaker I have is Andrew Shelton.
• • SPEAKER_26
  • 01:33:18
    Hi, I'm Andrew Shelton.
  • 01:33:20
    I'm currently a resident of Albemarle County, but just barely.
  • 01:33:24
    I've lived in Charlottesville or in the near vicinity for my entire life.
  • 01:33:28
    I spend a great deal of time in and around the city during my day, so I definitely feel like I have a part to play here.
  • 01:33:35
    I'm here to speak against the potential installation of the flock cameras and I believe that I have a somewhat different objection to this than much of what I've seen and read so far.
  • 01:33:49
    I was following along with the Chief's presentation earlier and appreciated that.
  • 01:33:53
    But a lot of the focus that I'm seeing is on the potential civil rights abuse from the state against people that might be captured by the cameras.
  • 01:34:04
    And while in no way I find that to be a very serious potential, my broader concern is more about the potential for abuse from within the company itself.
  • 01:34:16
    We know very little about their overall business plan.
  • 01:34:21
    It currently appears that they're operating off of a large infusion of venture capital, at least 300 million in the last few years.
  • 01:34:28
    I believe their current valuation is something on the order of a billion dollars.
  • 01:34:32
    And it's very difficult for me to look at this company that is riding on venture capital currently and has been making very strong inroads into municipalities across the country and not wonder what their ultimate plan is for monetizing the entire thing.
  • 01:34:48
    Obviously, I understand that they'll be charging maintenance fees and that sort of thing, but nothing that I've seen really makes it look to me like the actual business model is provide this service to the communities that they're going to be installed in.
  • 01:35:05
    I am concerned that they might be following a broader tech model where the goal is to basically get in, get your installation of the data collection points and then monetize that data down the line.
  • 01:35:20
    Not convinced that that wouldn't be on the table, despite their many assurances about how this data will be protected from abuse of, say, individual police officers, that sort of thing.
  • 01:35:31
    I'm concerned that we're effectively offering them free rein to train whatever their models are on the data we'll be giving them if they get put in place.
  • 01:35:40
    And at a minimum, I would really love if y'all would get some stronger assurances from them about
  • 01:35:45
    How they would internally be using the data, what their long term plans are for that.
  • 01:35:50
    It also ties in with the question that I appreciated being asked earlier about where the funding through the Police Foundation is coming from.
  • 01:35:57
    Because my understanding is that the fee is something on the order of $300,000 for the next few years, whereas the Police Foundation's budget is only about $150,000 per year.
  • 01:36:07
    So it really looks to me like there was an infusion of cash that was particularly for this project.
  • 01:36:11
    And I'd love to know where that came from.
  • 01:36:13
    Thank you very much.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:36:19
    The next speaker is Rose Buckaloo.
• • SPEAKER_12
  • 01:36:31
    Hi, my name is Rose and I live near Washington Park here in Charlottesville and I've come tonight to speak on two issues, flock and the ceasefire resolution.
  • 01:36:40
    So I'm a sociologist and a criminologist.
  • 01:36:43
    I teach and research on issues of crime, criminalization, race and racism.
  • 01:36:48
    and I want to share with you that there is no peer-reviewed research to suggest that automatic license plate readers lower crime rates.
  • 01:36:57
    I've spent time researching this topic and I have access to academic databases, research databases, and there is no peer-reviewed research suggesting ALPRs lower crime rates.
  • 01:37:08
    Peer-reviewed research undergoes rigorous scrutiny from relevant experts before it can be published.
  • 01:37:14
    Now there is research that corporations like Flock have paid for,
  • 01:37:19
    that overstate the effectiveness of ALPRs and other technologies.
  • 01:37:23
    But that research is not peer-reviewed.
  • 01:37:25
    It's the same as letting a kid grade their homework.
  • 01:37:28
    You know no matter what they do, they're going to give themselves an A+.
  • 01:37:32
    What you do find in the research literature on ALPRs is a host of scholars warning us on the dangers of these technologies.
  • 01:37:40
    City Council members, you are concerned with crime and gun violence in Charlottesville.
  • 01:37:46
    It's a complicated problem, and flock emerges as a seemingly straightforward and smart solution, one that looks unbiased and accurate, but it is not.
  • 01:37:56
    Scholars, in particular black and brown scholars, have been ringing the alarm on ALPRs, calling attention to how the technology infringes on our privacy and also exacerbates racial and class inequalities.
  • 01:38:09
    say no to flock, there's no evidence that it will make Charlottesville safer, we do not need a pilot study.
  • 01:38:16
    Moving on to the ceasefire resolution, today marks day 178 of Israel's war on Gaza.
  • 01:38:26
    It's also the second time that we've asked you to consider voting to approve a ceasefire resolution.
  • 01:38:32
    It's time that Charlottesville stands with the other hundred cities that have called for a ceasefire.
  • 01:38:38
    Today, Israel withdrew its military from a two-week long raid on Al-Shifa Hospital complex in Gaza.
  • 01:38:45
    Multiple buildings have been burned down.
  • 01:38:47
    Those that are left up are charred and black.
  • 01:38:50
    Gaza's largest hospital was barely surviving but now it is out of service.
  • 01:38:54
    People are trying to salvage what they can.
  • 01:38:56
    Doctors and nurses have been killed and arrested.
  • 01:38:59
    Hundreds of bodies have been found inside and around the complex.
  • 01:39:03
    All that is left is rubble and dead bodies.
  • 01:39:07
    The hospital was known as the House of Healing.
  • 01:39:09
    It was referred to as the feeding heart of Gaza.
  • 01:39:13
    It's day 178 of Israel's war on Gaza, and today is the day that Charlottesville City Council votes to approve a ceasefire resolution.
  • 01:39:20
    What more devastation and human suffering do we need to witness before we are moved to make this act, this largely symbolic act,
  • 01:39:28
    I ask that you stand with your constituents, your neighbors, your friends and colleagues and approve the ceasefire resolution today.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 01:39:46
    Good evening.
  • 01:39:48
    Mayor Wade, council members, my name is Kristin Sakas.
  • 01:39:50
    I live in the Locust Grove neighborhood in Charlottesville, and I served on the Charlottesville City Council for eight years.
  • 01:39:56
    I don't envy you any of it, although I did enjoy it.
  • 01:40:00
    I'm here to add my voice to those calling for the Charlottesville City Council to join the national movement to urge our federal government to demand immediate ceasefire in Gaza and the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.
  • 01:40:14
    The United States and Israel have always been close friends and allies.
  • 01:40:18
    But you can't turn your back when your friend is doing something terrible.
  • 01:40:22
    Israel's bombardment of innocent civilians in Gaza is terrible and it must stop.
  • 01:40:27
    It is in violation of international law and goes against everything our nation says it stands for.
  • 01:40:33
    As a close ally of Israel, a call from the United States for ceasefire could save countless lives
  • 01:40:39
    and E's unwarranted human suffering.
  • 01:40:42
    By joining with more than 100 city councils and other local governments across our nation, you will be raising our voices as our representatives to call for an immediate ceasefire in our name.
  • 01:40:52
    The inclusion of Charlottesville among these local government resolutions will be a powerful statement that hate and violence must not win.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:40:59
    Thank you.
  • 01:41:00
    Thank you, Kristin.
  • 01:41:05
    The next speaker is Laura Goldblatt.
• • SPEAKER_34
  • 01:41:17
    Good evening, my name is Laura Goblat and I'm a Jewish resident who lives on Druid Avenue in Belmont.
  • 01:41:23
    I grew up in New Jersey attending a synagogue that Albert Einstein helped to found after refusing to work on the Manhattan Project due to his opposition to creating weapons of mass destruction.
  • 01:41:33
    I think there's much to learn from Einstein's example, a refugee from Germany living in the United States explicitly on the condition that he comply with the US government's demands, defying those demands because they contravened his most foundational principles.
  • 01:41:48
    In hearing and telling this story, we learn an old and perpetual truth, that imperiling a group of people, even under the most extreme of conditions, never leads to any real or lasting safety.
  • 01:42:00
    I am here today to urge you to find the courage to join with over 100 municipalities across the U.S. to demand an end to Israel's genocidal war on Palestine.
  • 01:42:09
    To find the courage and clarity to use your voice to say that genocide and apartheid will never make any group of people safe.
  • 01:42:17
    And I want to say that to the Jewish members of my community.
  • 01:42:19
    We will never be safe with genocide and apartheid.
  • 01:42:23
    I imagine that at least some of you agree with an end to the war and that your reluctance to pass a resolution is really about a feeling that calling for a ceasefire is beyond local government's purview.
  • 01:42:34
    I disagree for several reasons.
  • 01:42:36
    In targeting an entire population in its war, the Israeli army and government is committing war crimes.
  • 01:42:41
    And in funding those war crimes, the United States government is a willing accomplice to them.
  • 01:42:46
    Who holds the United States accountable for such crimes except for its populace working through representative bodies such as city council?
  • 01:42:54
    Further, the majority of likely voters across the political spectrum favor a ceasefire according to recent polling.
  • 01:43:01
    Despite this popular dissent, the federal government continues to allocate more funding to Israel's genocidal war, over 13 billion just last week.
  • 01:43:09
    In passing a ceasefire resolution, you will demonstrate that local governments have an important role to play in our democratic process by magnifying that populist demand and bringing our voices closer to federal policymakers.
  • 01:43:20
    Indeed, we are seeing the power of grassroots solidarity with Palestine right now.
  • 01:43:24
    But I am also here because Israel's war on Gaza and Palestine endangers our city.
  • 01:43:30
    Charlottesville faces several overlapping public safety, racial and environmental crises.
  • 01:43:35
    I know this not least as a commissioner for the Charlottesville Redevelopment and Housing Authority, where I have served for five years.
  • 01:43:42
    And we know the solution to these crises.
  • 01:43:44
    Deeply affordable housing, especially for people making 0-30% AMI, excellent and well-funded healthcare, dynamic and well-resourced school,
  • 01:43:52
    Clean air and water and collective solutions to climate change that privilege those already facing its worst effects.
  • 01:43:58
    Instead of funding these solutions, including the section 202 funding for the elderly, the healthy homes initiatives and section 811 housing for persons with disabilities that was cut in HUD's budget last week that we rely on, we fund a genocidal war that imperils our Palestinian, Arab, Muslim, Middle Eastern and Jewish communities, among others.
  • 01:44:16
    and rather than funding crime prevention, we consider a tool of surveillance capitalism, FLOC, that will only drive more racial and economic inequality in our city.
  • 01:44:24
    I'm asking you to vote no to war and in doing so, I ask you to say yes to your citizens.
  • 01:44:29
    Say yes to the hard work of racial justice, truth and reconciliation and environmental and community healing.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:44:34
    Thank you.
  • 01:44:37
    Thank you.
  • 01:44:39
    The next speaker is David Swanson.
  • 01:44:42
    David Swanson.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 01:44:48
    Thank you.
  • 01:44:48
    David Swanson, Gillespie Avenue.
  • 01:44:51
    I want to thank this council for reconsidering a resolution in support of a ceasefire in Palestine.
  • 01:44:57
    Rare is the government that will listen to people at all, much less listen to them more than once.
  • 01:45:02
    I want to thank members of this council for taking care with their duties and seeking to protect this city from the sort of deadly Nazi rally we saw here several years ago, but I want to thank them even more.
  • 01:45:13
    for reconsidering whether silence in the face of genocide is really the best way to protect us.
  • 01:45:20
    And by us, I mean all living things on earth.
  • 01:45:23
    If someday I am asked, what did you do during the second NACPA, grandpa?
  • 01:45:29
    I'd like to be able to say that not only I, but all of us did what we were capable of to end it, that we went even beyond what was perfectly comfortable, that we were willing to be called names and worse, but that we did not go silent.
  • 01:45:44
    and that we did not ask anyone else to go silent but invited them to friendly discussions and debates.
  • 01:45:50
    But we cannot wait to speak against mass murder until every last person has understood what's happening, even people who own televisions.
  • 01:46:00
    We cannot dismiss as a radical policy position simple compliance with the law, including the numerous laws that forbid sending weapons to nations engaged in committing crimes with those weapons.
  • 01:46:12
    We cannot normalize ignoring the orders of the World Court and the United Nations.
  • 01:46:18
    And yet, as we've made clear for weeks, we aren't even asking this council to support compliance with the law on arms shipments.
  • 01:46:24
    We're asking it merrily to endorse what many of those supporting the arms shipments themselves have long claimed to already endorse, a ceasefire.
  • 01:46:35
    If I were constantly shooting guns at my neighbor's house, would you praise me for throwing some crackers through the window too?
  • 01:46:42
    Or would you stop bringing me bullets?
  • 01:46:45
    All we are asking, all we are asking is that while you keep bringing me bullets, you mention that it would be good if I were to knock it off.
  • 01:46:54
    This isn't asking much.
  • 01:46:56
    I thank you very, very much for reconsidering my remaining 45 seconds.
  • 01:47:02
    If you want a resolution passed, could you please stand up?
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:47:11
    Thank you.
  • 01:47:13
    Thank you, Mr. Swanson.
  • 01:47:14
    Next speaker is Don Gathers.
• • SPEAKER_31
  • 01:47:23
    Good evening, Don Dathers, city resident.
  • 01:47:38
    Let me start by saying that I actually like each of you.
  • 01:47:42
    I haven't been able to say that about past councils.
  • 01:47:45
    Which is why it's so troubling to understand why three of you, and I'm speaking specifically to Mayor Wade, Vice Mayor Pinkston, and former Mayor Snook, would vote against any resolution that would seek a ceasefire to a conflict.
  • 01:47:58
    We ourselves here in Charlottesville were under attack at war some six and a half years ago.
  • 01:48:03
    At that time, clergy and community leaders put out a call seeking assistance to what we expected to happen that day, that weekend, that summer.
  • 01:48:11
    And persons from all across the country responded to our community, our cry for help, in a resounding way.
  • 01:48:17
    Now when we're given the opportunity to reciprocate to people in need, we decline to do so.
  • 01:48:22
    Let me remind you once again of the words penned by Pastor Martin E. Miller.
  • 01:48:27
    First they came for the socialists and I did not speak up because I was not a socialist.
  • 01:48:32
    Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
  • 01:48:37
    Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
  • 01:48:41
    Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me.
  • 01:48:45
    While this revolution is largely a symbolic gesture, we will join in the over 100 US cities as well as the United Nations that recall for the end to this senseless continued tragedy.
  • 01:48:56
    It will signal that we feel that the war, whoever the aggressor is, is wrong and not in keeping with their values of a caring community.
  • 01:49:04
    I urge you to reconsider your votes.
  • 01:49:07
    Remember that several years ago when we had councilors seated in those same chairs, they unconsciously voted against removing the Confederate statues of hate that littered the downtown area.
  • 01:49:16
    I ask you to remember how tragically that ended.
  • 01:49:20
    You have an opportunity here and now to do the right thing.
  • 01:49:23
    As recently as 2022, our country sent over $3 billion in aid to Israel.
  • 01:49:29
    Presently, there's a bill in Congress to send some $14 billion more in aid.
  • 01:49:35
    In one of his most endearing speeches, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. stated, I come to say to you this afternoon, however difficult the moment, however frustrating the hour, it will not be long, because truth crushed the earth will rise again.
  • 01:49:50
    How long?
  • 01:49:51
    Not long.
  • 01:49:52
    Because no lie can live forever.
  • 01:49:55
    How long?
  • 01:49:56
    Not long.
  • 01:49:57
    Because you shall reap what you sow.
  • 01:50:00
    How long?
  • 01:50:01
    Not long.
  • 01:50:03
    Truth forever on the scaffold, wrong forever on the throng.
  • 01:50:08
    yet the scaffold sways the future and behind the dim unknown standeth God within the shadow keeping watch above his own how long not long because the art of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice do what you know is right not what's popular and I must say please vote against flock we've got more than enough black people being arrested unnecessarily already
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:50:42
    The next speaker is Jake Weiner.
  • 01:50:45
    Jake Weiner.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 01:50:51
    Hi, counselors.
  • 01:50:52
    Jake Weiner.
  • 01:50:53
    I live by Jackson Viya, and I'm here in support of a ceasefire.
  • 01:50:57
    But you've heard from me.
  • 01:50:58
    Honestly, you've heard from most of the people in this room already.
  • 01:51:02
    I know that some of you are concerned about a limiting principle.
  • 01:51:05
    How do you stop this type of foreign policy from becoming city business?
  • 01:51:09
    And there's a really easy answer to that.
  • 01:51:12
    The people in this room are your limiting principle.
  • 01:51:15
    If you have over 1,000 signatures on a petition, that is the issue you need to consider.
  • 01:51:21
    If you have a room packed with supporters, that is the issue you need to consider.
  • 01:51:26
    You don't have to overthink it.
  • 01:51:28
    It's as simple as that.
  • 01:51:29
    People are here, and you're democratically elected.
  • 01:51:34
    So I think the only question left is, will each of you do the right thing tonight?
  • 01:51:39
    All right, I got that out of the way.
  • 01:51:40
    So speaking of the right thing, the right thing is not to digitally gate our city with license plate readers.
  • 01:51:47
    I'm a lawyer, and I specialize in privacy and civil rights.
  • 01:51:51
    I study the impact of advanced surveillance technologies like ALPRs at the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, DC.
  • 01:51:59
    This tech is deeply harmful and Flock is a known bad actor in this space.
  • 01:52:06
    They lie about the effectiveness of their technology, they buy off academics to push bad science, and they use private citizens and HOAs to spread their cameras without any public oversight and then give police free access.
  • 01:52:20
    I urge you to read Joseph Cox's coverage on Flock in 404 Media and in Vice before that.
  • 01:52:26
    It is deeply insightful.
  • 01:52:27
    He is the best tech journalist today, and you're not going to learn more about Flock than you will from Joseph Cox.
  • 01:52:33
    License plate readers surveil everyone, and there are risks to everyone because these things make mistakes.
  • 01:52:39
    You're not going to hear this from Flock, but every real world test of a license plate reader system has shown between a 10% and a 30% error rate.
  • 01:52:47
    That's a lot of errors.
  • 01:52:50
    And these mistakes come down hardest on our poorest and our most marginalized neighbors, on our black and brown neighbors, on our immigrant neighbors.
  • 01:52:58
    These are the people who a traffic stop is not just an unpleasant experience.
  • 01:53:03
    It is a life or death moment.
  • 01:53:06
    This is not tech that makes our city safer.
  • 01:53:08
    It is not solving murders.
  • 01:53:11
    It is just the further criminalization of poverty.
  • 01:53:13
    It means that every missed court fee, every petty misdemeanor becomes a police stop.
  • 01:53:18
    and this same technology chills free speech, it stops protest, it restricts reproductive rights not just for us in this city but for anyone who travels here from out of state.
  • 01:53:28
    If you are coming to Virginia because it is safe to get an abortion and you drive past a flock license plate reader,
  • 01:53:34
    There is a chance that police in another state will get access to that data.
  • 01:53:39
    That's deeply concerning.
  • 01:53:41
    And finally, as an expert in privacy, I just got to tell you, whatever promises Flock makes to you, every database is eventually breached.
  • 01:53:50
    Every system has a leak.
  • 01:53:51
    There is always someone who will sell access to this.
  • 01:53:54
    We've seen it across the country, and it's going to happen.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:53:57
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 01:53:57
    Thank you very much.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:54:02
    The next speaker, Chris.
  • 01:54:03
    The next speaker is Chris Kaser.
  • 01:54:06
    Chris Kaser.
• • SPEAKER_16
  • 01:54:18
    Hi, my name is Chris Kaiser.
  • 01:54:19
    I am the policy director for the ACLU of Virginia and I also live in Belmont.
  • 01:54:24
    I'm here today joined by colleagues from the Legal Aid Justice Center as well as Justice Forward Virginia to voice some concerns about the proposed pilot with flock safety.
  • 01:54:33
    Earlier today you received a letter from our organizations detailing our questions and concerns which I've also just provided in hard copy.
  • 01:54:39
    To be clear, just up top, we don't dispute that there might be some positive use cases for this technology in our community, although I will note there are some serious questions about flux crime prevention statistics that are worth closer scrutiny.
  • 01:54:54
    But our concern today really revolves around the lack of clarity about what laws, regulations, or even contract provisions would regulate this technology and how.
  • 01:55:04
    I was happy to learn tonight that there is a CPD policy in draft, although I don't think anybody's really seen that and the devil is in the details like anything else.
  • 01:55:13
    So some of the ideas we heard earlier today sound fine, but at the same time some of those are really just functions about limitations on the technology itself.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:55:22
    Chris, I'm sorry, can you hold for one second?
  • 01:55:25
    There's some seats available.
  • 01:55:27
    If everyone can kind of squeeze in so the individuals that are in the back standing up, they can have a place to stand.
  • 01:55:33
    We don't want to overfill this place, so please move over so people can sit down.
  • 01:55:40
    I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Mr. Kayser.
  • 01:55:42
    Oh, yeah, okay.
  • 01:55:46
    We forgot to do the timer.
  • 01:55:49
    That's all right.
• • Kyna Thomas
  • 01:55:50
    Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's fine.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:55:54
    Good, good, and squeezing.
  • 01:55:56
    I think we got some more seats.
  • 01:55:57
    We got two here.
  • 01:55:58
    Please find a seat.
  • 01:56:01
    We got some over here in the back that's standing up, please, so we can continue on.
  • 01:56:08
    Please find a seat, please.
  • 01:56:14
    Sir, is there some seats here?
  • 01:56:16
    There's one here, there's one in the back.
  • 01:56:19
    Thank you, thank you.
• • SPEAKER_16
  • 01:56:29
    Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
  • 01:56:31
    So as I was saying, I think that we heard some decent ideas in the proposed CPD policy earlier.
  • 01:56:37
    I'm happy to hear there is something in draft.
  • 01:56:39
    We really haven't seen that in writing, and so it's really hard to evaluate how much protection that's going to provide.
  • 01:56:44
    I will say that some of the ideas we heard about limiting the scope of the technology really just come down to the capability of the technology itself.
  • 01:56:54
    or just decisions that the private vendor has made about what they want the technology to do and both of those things can change very easily in the very near future as we go forward.
  • 01:57:03
    One reason that the devil is in the details so strongly with this particular issue is that under Virginia code, under the municipal code, there's absolutely no regulation whatsoever about how to use or not use this technology and so it all comes down to what decisions are made in this body.
  • 01:57:20
    As you review the draft policy and any other regulations, there are a lot of really detailed questions that we would like you to consider, including the following.
  • 01:57:29
    Can officers download ALPR data for any type of offense at all or only some?
  • 01:57:34
    We heard some comments about legitimate law enforcement uses only, but that is not defined in code anywhere.
  • 01:57:41
    So what does that mean exactly?
  • 01:57:43
    What policies govern individual officers' retention of data should they access and download it, contrasted with Flock's proposed seven-day retention period?
  • 01:57:53
    Notwithstanding the fact that this is meant only to be shared with Virginia law enforcement agencies, what about other agencies, federal immigration agencies, for example, that are located within Virginia?
  • 01:58:03
    Is that spoken to at all?
  • 01:58:06
    In addition, will ALPR data be preserved in the event that it's at issue in a criminal proceeding or an appeal?
  • 01:58:13
    If so, what would trigger that preservation and for how long?
  • 01:58:17
    And finally, does the city have sufficient in-house technical expertise and resources to really perform a robust independent audit?
  • 01:58:24
    These are not comprehensive questions, but I want to illustrate just how detailed and complex this issue gets.
  • 01:58:29
    We've outlined a bunch of other questions in the letter that we provided to you.
  • 01:58:34
    I'll close by saying that a lot of those questions are relevant to any kind of surveillance technology, but
  • 01:58:39
    In the context of ALPRs in particular, it's especially important because the enormous reach and capability of this technology really can't be overstated.
  • 01:58:49
    We know that it's only meant to track vehicles and license plate numbers right now, but you heard earlier that it's already capable of tracking other characteristics of vehicles.
  • 01:58:58
    In the very near future, updates could be uploaded to those devices to try to track other characteristics, anomaly detection driven by AI, things that are right around the corner.
  • 01:59:08
    We would want to have guardrails in place on the front end, not on the back end.
  • 01:59:12
    So at minimum, it's just our position that before moving forward with any kind of surveillance technology rollout, really, really take a close look at all these questions and don't give CPD a blank check just to use the technology writ large.
  • 01:59:24
    Thank you.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 01:59:25
    Thank you.
  • 01:59:25
    Thank you very much.
  • 01:59:31
    So that was the end of those pre-registered to speak.
  • 01:59:35
    We now have slides for eight speakers to speak.
  • 01:59:40
    And again, the same guidelines, three minutes, give your name and your residence.
  • 01:59:45
    Sir.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:59:52
    I'm Dan Alexander, Rabbi Emeritus of Congregation Beth Israel.
  • 01:59:56
    I'm a resident of Albemarle County.
  • 01:59:59
    Although its concerns are in my view far outside the purview of City Council, since the ceasefire resolution is again on the agenda, I offer my view that the resolution is one-sided, misguided, and therefore ought to be rejected.
  • 02:00:17
    I wish it were true that the immediate and sustained ceasefire called for by the resolution would end violence for Israelis and Palestinians, because I certainly hope and pray for an end to that violence.
  • 02:00:31
    And with every person of decency, I'm deeply saddened by the suffering and killing of innocent Gazans, even as I was shaken to my core by the October 7th massacre executed by Hamas terrorists against innocent Israeli citizens, civilians, by the raping of women and men, by their maiming of the bodies of slaughtered victims, by their brazen abduction of hostages.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:00:58
    Please, please.
  • 02:00:59
    Let him speak.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:01:01
    including babies and the elderly, and by their joyfully posting videos of their barbaric deeds.
  • 02:01:09
    Whereas I support the Biden administration's increased pressure on Israel to prioritize the humanitarian crisis facing Gazan noncombatants, I also take Hamas leaders at their word when they repeatedly promise to persist in carrying out the genocidal aims encoded in their founding charter, the aim of destroying Israel and murdering Jews.
  • 02:01:37
    and if pursuing the same means endangering the lives of Palestinians by embedding their military installations in, around and under hospitals, schools, mosques and residential neighborhoods well, we have observed how little the leaders of Hamas really care about the Palestinian people whose lives they intentionally endanger and whose deaths they delight in weaponizing.
  • 02:02:04
    Wittingly or unwittingly, those who promote resolutions like the one before council today partake of an ideology which opposes the very existence of the one stable democracy in the Middle East, which also happens to be the only sovereign Jewish nation anywhere.
  • 02:02:24
    By calling for an immediate and sustained ceasefire, and by opposing the American military aid Israel requires to defend itself against its enemies, including the Iranian proxies Hamas and Hezbollah, those who support this resolution are in effect aiding and abetting Hamas.
  • 02:02:44
    If permitted to reconstitute as the governing force in Gaza, Hamas would do nothing to enhance the welfare of the suffering Gazans and would instead perpetuate, not end, violence for both the Israelis and Palestinians.
  • 02:03:01
    And by the way, I respect all of you and would encourage everybody to accord you with the respect you all deserve.
  • 02:03:07
    Thank you.
  • 02:03:08
    And I will, whether you agree with me or not.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:03:10
    Thank you.
  • 02:03:11
    The next speaker.
  • 02:03:12
    Harold, did you want to speak?
• • SPEAKER_32
  • 02:03:14
    So I had a prepared speech ready about block and the awful things that they do but I think city council already made a minor which is
  • 02:03:33
    Trash Can For Me.
  • 02:03:34
    But I'm not here to assault anybody.
  • 02:03:37
    I'm actually going to take this time to thank the people who've been helping me through this log of fakeness when it comes to trying to dismantle the criminal justice system.
  • 02:03:51
    Before I do that, though, I want to thank my wife for allowing me
  • 02:03:56
    to be who I am by being my biggest critic and my biggest supporter.
  • 02:04:04
    So these are the people who I respect and thank you for being here with me.
  • 02:04:10
    Dee Dee Gilmore, Trey Henley, Frank, Earl,
  • 02:04:20
    All of our interns, right?
  • 02:04:24
    These people are always there giving me encouragement to continue to come talk to y'all about the things that is happening in our community that y'all are ignoring, right?
  • 02:04:35
    I'm going to thank all the LAJC folks because y'all are the ones who really helped me GSD and for those who don't know what GSD is, it depends on where you at.
  • 02:04:46
    Get something done or get something done, right?
  • 02:04:52
    But I'm going to tell you, it's been really hard the last four weeks coming to the city council meeting, fighting against the remodeling of a jail, right?
  • 02:05:07
    Fighting against over surveilling in my community.
  • 02:05:14
    No, but we have people who don't really, it's really not affecting them, right?
  • 02:05:20
    Instead of putting cameras in there, find some money to help these kids holistically get out of this property.
  • 02:05:27
    But no, we want to throw things that make everything feel like, oh, we're doing the right thing.
  • 02:05:34
    I'm really passionate about it because I am tired of coming here begging people to help my people.
  • 02:05:48
    I thank y'all so much.
  • 02:05:49
    Y'all have a good night.
  • 02:05:49
    Thank you.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:05:50
    Another speaker.
• • SPEAKER_42
  • 02:05:59
    Good evening.
  • 02:06:00
    My name is Beth McKinney and I'm here to speak about the ceasefire resolution, which has once again been brought to this council.
  • 02:06:07
    Several months ago, one of my students asked for permission to be absent because some of her family members in Gaza had been killed.
  • 02:06:15
    and she wanted to be with her remaining family here in the US.
  • 02:06:19
    At that time, I wrote to our elected officials at the national level, President Biden, Senators Kane and Warner and Bob Goode.
  • 02:06:26
    My letter at that time did not advocate for any specific policy measures.
  • 02:06:31
    It simply asked for their words as leaders.
  • 02:06:34
    How would they respond to my student?
  • 02:06:37
    What would they say to her knowing that our tax dollars were partially responsible for the deaths of her loved ones?
  • 02:06:43
    My student felt the need to tell me that one of these family members was an infant, perhaps because she did not believe that the deaths of her family members would immediately be recognized as grievable.
  • 02:06:57
    Palestinian lives and identities are so often erased in our media ecosystem, after all.
  • 02:07:03
    Despite the fact that the majority of people living in Gaza are children under the age of 15, the Palestinian and the American public imagination does not reflect this reality.
  • 02:07:14
    My student made a bid for my empathy by telling me the age of her dead relative.
  • 02:07:20
    I relayed that plea for empathy to the aforementioned leaders of this country.
  • 02:07:24
    The responses I received from our elected officials were all off-topic form letters that did not address the question I asked.
  • 02:07:33
    No word of leadership or encouragement for me as a public employee.
  • 02:07:37
    No modeling of the kind of language that would be appropriate to use.
  • 02:07:41
    I believe that a permanent ceasefire is necessary to protect the lives of everyone living in Palestine and Israel.
  • 02:07:47
    I also personally believe that the end of apartheid and occupation would protect people that I care about, and that until a real and fair peace agreement is reached, the people in my life who are Palestinian will not be safe, nor will their families.
  • 02:08:02
    I hope that once this resolution is passed, this community can work to concretely address the ways in which we are materially implicated in violence and oppression.
  • 02:08:11
    I hope that in the near future we can disentangle the ways we are complicit in all this death.
  • 02:08:16
    But even the meekest call for empathy has been unheeded by my elected officials at the national level.
  • 02:08:22
    So while I ultimately have higher hopes for what justice looks like in Israel-Palestine, all I am asking for tonight is that this council amplify my voice in calling for a lasting ceasefire.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:08:33
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 02:08:47
    Hello, my name is Jessica.
  • 02:08:49
    I live near downtown Charlottesville.
  • 02:08:51
    I would like to thank the council members for once again hearing the ceasefire resolution.
  • 02:08:56
    And I would also like to thank the Charlottesville Jewish Collective for putting together this resolution.
  • 02:09:05
    I know this is a very difficult
  • 02:09:08
    Decision.
  • 02:09:09
    But here are the facts.
  • 02:09:11
    The facts are that 30,000 people have been killed.
  • 02:09:15
    Half of them are children.
  • 02:09:17
    Those children are not part of Hamas.
  • 02:09:20
    Most of the people killed were not part of Hamas.
  • 02:09:25
    Passing this ceasefire resolution does not say that you do not have sympathies for the victims who were killed in the horrible October 7th attacks.
  • 02:09:35
    I have sympathies for them.
  • 02:09:37
    I think we all as human beings have sympathies for them.
  • 02:09:40
    However, there has been disinformation put into the press, such as the beheading of babies that was debunked, and yet there was not any major effort to spread that information.
  • 02:09:52
    And much of this information has been put forward not out of love for the Israeli people, but out of hate for the Palestinians to demonize them, to dehumanize them.
  • 02:10:03
    And we heard all this rhetoric before.
  • 02:10:05
    How quickly Americans forget, right?
  • 02:10:07
    We heard all this rhetoric back 20 years ago after 9-11.
  • 02:10:13
    back when we had to attack Iraq, right?
  • 02:10:17
    With all this rhetoric of you're either with us or against us.
  • 02:10:19
    You either support the terrorists or you don't.
  • 02:10:22
    And then it was found that we didn't need to go over there, that they didn't have weapons of mass destruction.
  • 02:10:26
    And in America's wars against terror, since 9-11, over 3 million people have been killed, most of them innocent, by our own military.
  • 02:10:37
    So I just ask you today to consider the facts, to consider
  • 02:10:42
    What you hope you did in the future, what you can tell your children that you did in the future, that you had courage to stand against international war crimes.
  • 02:10:52
    The majority of the world came together at the UN to say that there needs to be a ceasefire.
  • 02:10:58
    So this is not a fringe view.
  • 02:11:00
    This is not a minority view.
  • 02:11:02
    This is the view of a hundred cities.
  • 02:11:05
    in America to add our voices to morality and decency and a call to an end of collective punishment against a population which is defined as genocide, written in the Genocide Convention by Raphael Lemkin, a survivor of genocide himself.
  • 02:11:24
    I don't think he'd be pleased about what's going on right now.
  • 02:11:27
    And I hope that Israel and the Palestinians can resolve their differences.
  • 02:11:32
    I hope and I pray that there's peace in the region.
  • 02:11:34
    I hope and pray that Palestinians and Israelis can live together in peace and brotherhood.
  • 02:11:41
    But we just need to look at the facts and say that it's wrong to contribute our tax dollars to killing a majority, to engaging in collective punishment against the population.
  • 02:11:51
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_21
  • 02:12:05
    Hi, my name is Jonathan Katz.
  • 02:12:09
    This is a very hard issue, and I commend the Council for, as has been said, listening to this not once, but twice, for putting it on the agenda again, and for reconsidering what I believe was a mistaken vote two weeks ago.
  • 02:12:26
    I'm going to speak a little bit of Hebrew with the permission of the crowd here.
  • 02:12:33
    Im ein ani li, mi li, ur she'ani le'atzmi ma'ani,
  • 02:12:40
    B'im lor shav e matay.
  • 02:12:43
    If I am not for myself, then who will be for me?
  • 02:12:45
    And if I'm only for myself, then what am I?
  • 02:12:48
    And if not now, when?
  • 02:12:51
    Those are words that have guided me through my life as a Jew.
  • 02:12:57
    They are core to my Jewish being.
  • 02:13:01
    I'm a member of Rabbi Dan's congregation, and I have great respect for him.
  • 02:13:06
    And I'm
  • 02:13:09
    Just for myself, I wish she would have been able to speak without interruption.
  • 02:13:16
    I understand that tensions are high here and that emotions are running high.
  • 02:13:22
    I think that everybody in this room, regardless of how they feel about this particular resolution, shares a dream of people being able to live in peace and harmony and prosperity.
  • 02:13:37
    My feeling as a Jew, as a journalist, as somebody who is covered, who is reported from the ground in Israel and Palestine, including during the Second Intifada, this war, this genocide is not making anyone safer.
  • 02:13:55
    And this is a moment of critical importance.
  • 02:13:58
    The Netanyahu government is, as we speak, still considering going forward with their mobilization into Rafah, the last refuge of a million people, over a million people who have fled their homes across the Gaza Strip.
  • 02:14:11
    Today there's been a significant escalation with another bombing in Syria.
  • 02:14:15
    These resolutions, including the resolution that is in front of you, it is symbolic but it is a very important symbol and it is a symbol that has been adopted by over a hundred cities across the country.
  • 02:14:28
    Over a hundred city and municipal councils have felt that it is their job and it is making a difference.
  • 02:14:33
    We are moving the administration, we are seeing progress even at the highest levels of international politics and the UN Security Council.
  • 02:14:40
    It matters.
  • 02:14:41
    Our voices matter.
  • 02:14:42
    And I believe that this is the moment to show that if we are not for ourselves, then who will be for us?
  • 02:14:50
    But also if we are only for ourselves, then what are we?
  • 02:14:54
    Our liberations are linked.
  • 02:14:56
    Our futures are linked.
  • 02:14:58
    We should not be surveilling members of our community who don't need extra surveillance.
  • 02:15:03
    We should not be condemning to the grave people who deserve to live.
  • 02:15:09
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_14
  • 02:15:10
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_04
  • 02:15:31
    Thank you.
  • 02:15:32
    My name is Karen Mann.
  • 02:15:33
    I am a resident of Savannah, but I'm the pastor of Sojourners United Church of Christ here in Charlottesville.
  • 02:15:39
    And I thank you for the opportunity to speak to you tonight.
  • 02:15:41
    Our church council at Sojourners is one of the faith-based organizations that supported this petition for a ceasefire resolution.
  • 02:15:48
    Our church council felt really strongly that it was important for us to support this resolution.
  • 02:15:55
    We are horrified by the violence and genocide happening in Gaza and join our voices with others calling for an immediate ceasefire.
  • 02:16:04
    In our denomination, the United Church of Christ has long supported and spoken out for an end to the apartheid in Palestine.
  • 02:16:11
    Tonight I'm speaking for myself not as a pastor but just as a decent human being and a citizen of the greater Charlottesville community.
  • 02:16:20
    I cannot look away from or be silent in the face of the genocide happening in Palestine.
  • 02:16:26
    This past week was a convergence of holy days for Jews, Muslims, and Christians.
  • 02:16:31
    But even as we celebrated our holy days, we were confronted with the pain of war and conflict all over our world, but especially in Palestine.
  • 02:16:40
    All of us desire to live in peace and see peace flourish in our world.
  • 02:16:45
    and we cannot look away, please do not look away.
  • 02:16:48
    We must join our voices together lamenting and denouncing the hatred, violence and dehumanization against our neighbors and calling for the restoration of dignity, wholeness and flourishing for all peoples.
  • 02:17:02
    The violence, mass displacement and starvation inflicted in Palestine today is a matter of moral urgency.
  • 02:17:09
    A ceasefire is an essential yet minimal requirement for peace.
  • 02:17:14
    An immediate and permanent ceasefire must be accompanied by unfettered and urgent delivery of humanitarian aid and medical supplies and protection of the population, particularly of the tens of thousands of children that are in harm's way.
  • 02:17:29
    Counselors, I urge you to join Charlottesville's voice with those of millions around the world calling for a permanent ceasefire.
  • 02:17:36
    No matter how big or small our voice, it is imperative that we speak clearly against injustice whenever we witness it, especially when our government is complicit in enabling and empowering the perpetuation of this violence.
  • 02:17:51
    Charlottesville knows all too well what happens when people look away from injustice.
  • 02:17:57
    Do not look away.
  • 02:17:58
    Let us speak clearly and boldly tonight.
  • 02:18:01
    Cease fire now.
• • SPEAKER_38
  • 02:18:15
    Thank you for taking my question.
  • 02:18:17
    My name is Jenny Leguri, and like many of us here, I'm here to ask that you vote in favor of the ceasefire resolution.
  • 02:18:25
    I am a resident of Charlottesville, the Fry's Spring neighborhood.
  • 02:18:30
    I am a new resident.
  • 02:18:32
    My husband and I made the very calculated decision of building a home, raising our children.
  • 02:18:37
    here in Charlottesville contributing to the city with our tax dollars.
  • 02:18:42
    And we did that because even though this is a city that was built on inequality and built on injustice, we can see the efforts that it's making today to make up for its history.
  • 02:18:54
    For example, the honoring of the Charlottesville 12.
  • 02:18:58
    We chose to make a home here because this is a city that says we can and we will do better for everyone.
  • 02:19:06
    and my colleagues before me have made the case, I think, for why we should be vocal about not supporting the genocide in Gaza and the apartheid state of Israel.
  • 02:19:19
    It must end.
  • 02:19:19
    They have told you the details and the statistics
  • 02:19:23
    today and last time of the thousands of innocent men, women and children.
  • 02:19:31
    The children who have been killed, who are being starved, who have lost parents and relatives and friends and limbs, who are traumatized.
  • 02:19:41
    My colleagues have told you these details and I'm here to tell you that a ceasefire resolution from Charlottesville
  • 02:19:50
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_36
  • 02:20:12
    Good evening.
  • 02:20:13
    I'm Nikuyah Walker, Charlottesville, Virginia.
  • 02:20:16
    Mayor, Council, I'm here.
  • 02:20:19
    I've sent emails about my concerns about flock.
  • 02:20:24
    I'm going to read a couple of things that I just took a quick screenshot of some that I was sending you all as you all were talking at the four o'clock hour.
  • 02:20:34
    And if the
  • 02:20:38
    Virtual calls can be allowed again.
  • 02:20:41
    I do want to put that up front and then if a four o'clock meeting, you know, time for public comment.
  • 02:20:50
    FLOC was founded in 2017.
  • 02:20:52
    By 2024, FLOC fixed cameras have been installed in over 4,000 cities, 42 states across the US.
  • 02:20:59
    FLOC has raised $380 million in venture funding with a $3.5 billion valuation in 2022.
  • 02:21:07
    All of you all fully understand what following the money means.
  • 02:21:13
    So I have a lot of comments about my concerns about flock.
  • 02:21:17
    I've watched a lot of interviews with Garrett, the founder.
  • 02:21:20
    I have very just extreme concern.
  • 02:21:24
    Back to this community, I want to start with a comment about Clinton in 2016.
  • 02:21:32
    In 2016, Clinton got hammered when she was running for president because of comments she made in 1996 about super predators.
  • 02:21:44
    Her comment at the time was they are often the kind of kids that are called super predators.
  • 02:21:48
    Clinton said in 1996 at the height of anxiety during our husband's administration about the high rates of crime and violence.
  • 02:21:56
    No conscience, no empathy.
  • 02:21:59
    And we can talk about why they end up the way they do.
  • 02:22:03
    But first, we must bring them to a heel.
  • 02:22:06
    And that is the position you all are taking in this community with flocks, with project safe neighborhoods, with anti-gang.
  • 02:22:14
    You are bringing to a heel and primarily black
  • 02:22:18
    Kids have been affected by this criminal justice system in this community.
  • 02:22:24
    In 2016, Clinton then says, my life work has been about lifting up children and young people who have been let down by the system and by society, kids who never got the chance they deserve,
  • 02:22:38
    Clinton continued in that statement and unfortunately today there are way too many of those kids, especially in the African American community.
  • 02:22:47
    We haven't done right by them.
  • 02:22:49
    We need to.
  • 02:22:50
    We need to end the school to prison pipeline and replace it to cradle to college pipeline.
  • 02:22:58
    You all are in a position where you all are going to be apologizing in decades to come or someone on your behalf because of decisions like this.
  • 02:23:08
    At a minimum, your PCOB staff member should know how the system works to be able to comment on it.
  • 02:23:17
    At a minimum, you all need to make the initial investment to make sure that what your chief is saying is actually something that can happen.
  • 02:23:26
    People are being abused by surveillance systems and the community that has been abused the most are black people in this community.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:23:39
    So I'm sorry, that was the last public comment.
• • SPEAKER_38
  • 02:23:43
    No, I was number 14 and I wasn't called.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:23:46
    Well, it's only the first eight are guaranteed.
  • 02:23:51
    So there'll be another opportunity for public comment at the end.
  • 02:23:55
    We're now going to go on to the consent agenda.
• • Kyna Thomas
  • 02:24:12
    consent agenda number three minutes January 22nd regular meeting January 26 council retreat February 1st special meeting and budget work session
  • 02:24:27
    February 7th, Joint Council and School Board Budget Work Session, March 14th, Budget Work Session, March 21st, Budget Forum and Public Hearing, and March 26th, Decarbonization Work Session.
  • 02:24:41
    There was a scrivener's error on the initial packet that went out, but I've corrected that.
  • 02:24:47
    Number four, resolution to appropriate USDA Forest Service Urban and Community Forestry Inflation Reduction Grant for Charlottesville Urban Forest Management Planning, $150,000, second reading.
  • 02:25:01
    Three, resolution appropriating funding in the amount of $21,458 to be received from the Library of Virginia Circuit Court Records Preservation Grant Review Board, second reading.
  • 02:25:16
    6.
  • 02:25:17
    Ordinance amending the Charlottesville Code of Ordinances Section 2-98B to increase the appropriation amount requiring two readings from $1,001 to $5,000.
  • 02:25:27
    Second reading.
  • 02:25:29
    7.
  • 02:25:30
    Resolution
  • 02:25:31
    An award of FY24 Charlottesville Affordable Housing Fund, or CAF, and FY25 Housing Operations and Program Support, HOPS.
  • 02:25:44
    So those are two separate resolutions and both are second reading.
  • 02:25:48
    Eight Ordinance amending City Code Article 2, Section 2-38.
  • 02:25:54
    Regarding the organizational meeting and section 2-39, Elections, Terms and General Powers and Duties of the Mayor.
  • 02:26:01
    This is all a title.
  • 02:26:03
    Vice Mayor and Mayor Pro Tempore.
  • 02:26:07
    Mayor's Veto, second reading.
  • 02:26:08
    9, Resolution appropriating funding for the Rugby Avenue Bicycle and Pedestrian Trail Project.
  • 02:26:16
    $130,059.50, one of two readings.
  • 02:26:21
    10 resolution appropriating funding from the Bama Works grant to Community Action Foster Families, Community Attention Foster Families, $5,000, one of two readings.
  • 02:26:31
    11 resolution appropriating funding from the Batten Foundation to the Department of Human Services, $40,000, one of two readings.
  • 02:26:40
    12 resolution for approval of memorandum of understanding between Bennett's Village and the City of Charlottesville.
  • 02:26:47
    13, a resolution for approval of a lease agreement between Bennett's Village and the City of Charlottesville.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:26:54
    Okay.
  • 02:26:55
    Thank you.
  • 02:26:55
    We'll now have public comments on those 13 items, just on those 13 items read in the consent agenda.
  • 02:27:02
    Would anyone like to speak on one of those items?
  • 02:27:07
    Any comment from Councillors?
  • 02:27:10
    If not, can I get a motion to approve and second?
  • 02:27:14
    I move for approval of the consent agenda.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:27:17
    Second.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:27:18
    Okay, please vote.
  • 02:27:21
    Motion passes to approve consent agenda 5-0.
  • 02:27:24
    Next on the agenda is the city manager's report.
• • Sam Sanders
  • 02:27:28
    Mayor and Council, I'm going to forego my report and let you all move on to your action items.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:27:32
    Thank you.
  • 02:27:33
    The next item on the agenda is a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire and end of violence in Israel and Palestine.
  • 02:27:40
    Councilor, Vice Mayor Pinkston will present.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 02:27:49
    Yes, I don't feel the need to re-read the ordinance or the resolution rather.
  • 02:27:56
    It's in your packet.
  • 02:27:57
    It's the same one that Councillor Oschrin read two weeks ago.
  • 02:28:02
    So there's been no change.
  • 02:28:04
    You're welcome to look in the packet.
  • 02:28:10
    Reviewed by a number of different people and so I think there is at least consensus on what it is we're voting on tonight.
  • 02:28:18
    I would like to say a few comments and then I don't know if my colleagues have anything to add or not.
  • 02:28:26
    The first thing I want to do is to thank my colleagues, these are fine people here with me, for their graciousness in letting me revisit this vote.
  • 02:28:34
    It's a sign of the strength of this council, I think, that we can do this.
  • 02:28:39
    I also want to thank those, many of you in the audience, many from different perspectives, who've helped me over the last three, four weeks to really sit with this and to try to think through it well.
  • 02:28:50
    I think this should go without saying but I believe it's important to change your mind and to revisit a decision if upon new information or upon further reflection you've come to believe you made a mistake.
  • 02:29:06
    I largely agree with Councillor Snook and his comments a few weeks ago about institutional modesty.
  • 02:29:12
    I think that that's an important principle.
  • 02:29:14
    I do believe that by and large we should stick with our knitting as they say in city government and I will also say that as an elected official it's not uncomplicated to take a vote like this when many of your constituents do see this conflict as complex.
  • 02:29:35
    That said, I've become convinced that there are times and places in which I, as an elected official, should lend the support of my conscience to a public action like this resolution.
  • 02:29:46
    This seems to me one of those moments.
  • 02:29:50
    I've also come to believe that the fact that there are complexities, that that should not prevent us from seeing what's not at all complex.
  • 02:30:00
    The impact of this conflict on innocent people is morally outrageous.
  • 02:30:05
    Now, I don't know if this conflict is the issue of our times, but it is certainly an important one.
  • 02:30:15
    And we do have skin in the game in as much as A, this city is a home for refugees of all creeds and nationalities, and B, national defense plays a large role in our local economy.
  • 02:30:28
    Our tax dollars are implicated in this conflict.
  • 02:30:32
    As to the resolution itself, the content of it and the resolution, the content of the resolution is not identical with what other people have said today necessarily.
  • 02:30:43
    The content of the resolution is in the packet and I support the content of that resolution.
  • 02:30:49
    I've become convinced that its authors, some of whom I've met, intentionally sought to strike a neutral and balanced tone.
  • 02:30:59
    Others may disagree.
  • 02:31:00
    It's a shame that a word like ceasefire has itself become controversial.
  • 02:31:07
    But I think that we can all agree that the cessation of hostilities is good and worth seeking.
  • 02:31:11
    Almost done.
  • 02:31:13
    I realize that there are also concerns about unintended consequences, especially in a place like Charlottesville.
  • 02:31:20
    I can only say that I've thought about that, and I still believe that this is the right and courageous thing to do.
  • 02:31:29
    The final thing I will say is this, hate has no home in Charlottesville.
  • 02:31:37
    Antis of any sort and phobias of any sort are not part of our DNA.
  • 02:31:44
    We are pro-inclusion, pro-kindness, pro-empathy.
  • 02:31:49
    I hope that we can remember that and turn the page tonight.
  • 02:31:53
    Thank you, Brian.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:32:08
    I'm going to give our other colleagues an opportunity to, if you want to chime in or if you have anything you want to add.
• • Michael Payne
  • 02:32:19
    Sure.
  • 02:32:20
    I know we discussed this two weeks ago, and I don't really have much original new thoughts to share, but I will just read again the reason I'm still supportive of this resolution as I proceed from a place that all human life is of equal value.
  • 02:32:38
    And we can discuss historical origins and back and forth and what governments did, but when you confront dead children, none of that matters.
  • 02:32:48
    That's true for October 7th and the innocent civilians who lost their life on that tragic day.
  • 02:32:55
    It's also true from New York Times reporting the over 30,000 civilians in Gaza who have died.
  • 02:33:00
    The famine that's been reported in the New York Times is imminent.
  • 02:33:04
    Over half of buildings as of February 1st being damaged or destroyed in Gaza.
  • 02:33:10
    And the danger of the conflict spreading beyond Gaza into both the West Bank, potentially Syria,
  • 02:33:18
    Lebanon, Iran and the risk there and I'll just say again I do think we have a very small voice but it is still a voice to weigh in because we as elected officials people in the community when they see the consequences of American foreign policy which are felt around the entire world it's easy to feel a sense of hopelessness because we can't control
  • 02:33:41
    what Northrop Grumman does directly.
  • 02:33:43
    We can't control what Congress does directly.
  • 02:33:45
    But I think we have to do what we can, which is often small, but it's still something.
  • 02:33:50
    So I do think it is appropriate, and I would say I thought it was appropriate in the past when we passed resolutions opposed to the Iraq war, opposed to Trump escalating a military conflict with Iran.
  • 02:34:01
    I think it would have been appropriate for us to oppose the war and famine in Yemen that the United States helped fund by supporting Saudi Arabia.
  • 02:34:11
    So in my mind, this is not isolated to just any one actor.
  • 02:34:16
    I think this is part of the role of local government.
  • 02:34:19
    So I appreciate that we've been able to have this discussion again.
  • 02:34:22
    I still plan to vote in support of it.
  • 02:34:26
    Thank you.
  • 02:34:27
    Thank you, sir.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:34:38
    I too plan to vote in support of it again as well.
  • 02:34:41
    I think that what it helps with is that it lends our voice to many.
  • 02:34:48
    So alone, we might not be effective, but we join a voice from Harrisonburg nearby.
  • 02:34:55
    We join a voice from cities across the country.
  • 02:34:57
    We join all of your voices individually to become one of many, and that's where we have power.
  • 02:35:01
    So thank you very much.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:35:10
    Let me say that I continue to believe that it is unwise for City Council to take positions on international issues, particularly issues like this that have proven to be intractable for decades, if not millennia.
  • 02:35:25
    President Biden and Senators Kaine and Warner have already endorsed the goals advocated by this resolution.

11. Charlottesville Dark Sky Week

• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:35:33
    It was on February 14th, 2024 that they signed onto a letter that had been written by, among others, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, a lot of the progressives in the Senate, calling for three goals, an immediate ceasefire, an immediate exchange of hostages, and significant humanitarian aid to Gaza on an emergency basis.

12. Community Matters

• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:35:57
    Those are the three goals that are set out in the resolution that is being given to us tonight.

13. Consent Agenda*

• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:36:03
    I personally wrote to both Senators on February 15th, the next day, 2024, endorsing the position that they took in the letter that they had signed the day before.

14. City Manager Report

• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:36:13
    At about the same time, the Biden administration began working on the UN Security Council resolution endorsing these same three goals.

15. Resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire and end to violence in Israel and Palestine

• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:36:22
    That resolution came up for discussion on March 21st, 2024, and although it was supported by a majority of the Security Council that day, it was vetoed by Russia and China.
  • 02:36:33
    The resolution is basically asking, so I should add that almost the same resolution was passed four days later on March 25th with the United States abstaining at that point, calling for those three things, immediate ceasefire, immediate exchange of hostages, and significant humanitarian aid to Gaza on an emergency basis.
  • 02:36:56
    So this resolution that we are spending this, that we're having this discussion about,
  • 02:37:03
    is really basically asking the President and both of our Senators to take a position that they have already taken.
  • 02:37:12
    Please, please, please, sir.
  • 02:37:14
    Please, sir, please, please.
  • 02:37:16
    And just to mention, it has been mentioned before that this resolution does not call for cutting off weapons shipments.
  • 02:37:25
    Maybe it should, but it doesn't.
  • 02:37:28
    So my feeling about it is that the resolution is basically asking us to take a position they have already taken, but which neither side, neither Israel nor Palestine has been willing to implement itself.
  • 02:37:43
    Since the resolution is going to pass, because I can count to three, I will abstain rather than vote no, because I would not want a no vote to be misunderstood as a no vote on the substance.
  • 02:37:56
    Thank you.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:37:57
    You want to call the question?
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 02:37:59
    Yeah, I would call the question.
  • 02:38:01
    I would move for approval of this resolution.
  • 02:38:04
    Second.
  • 02:38:05
    OK. Can we vote, please?
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:38:07
    I'm saying.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:38:09
    The motion passes.
  • 02:38:11
    Thank you.
  • 02:38:23
    Thank you.
  • 02:38:36
    You all are certainly welcome to stay for the rest of the agenda.
  • 02:38:38
    If not, I'll just give you a few minutes now to exit.
  • 02:38:44
    You're welcome to stay, though.
  • 02:38:45
    We have some other public hearings.
• • Michael Payne
  • 02:38:53
    I'm the retirement commissioner.
  • 02:38:55
    And the retirement commissioner of the city business.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 02:38:57
    There's plenty of city business left.
• • Michael Payne
  • 02:38:59
    You all right, brother?
  • 02:39:02
    I don't know most people talked about your city business.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:39:09
    It's locked.
  • 02:39:09
    I know.
  • 02:39:09
    Thank you all.
  • 02:39:10
    Thank you.
  • 02:39:12
    Thank you.
  • 02:39:15
    Thank you.
  • 02:39:22
    Thank you all.
  • 02:39:35
    Please exit so we can continue with the meeting.
  • 02:39:38
    Thank you.
  • 02:39:42
    Thank you.
  • 02:39:43
    Thank you.
  • 02:39:52
    Thank you.

16. FY2025 Budget Ordinance and Annual Appropriation, and Tax Rate/Tax Levy Ordinance (1 of 2 readings)

• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:40:13
    The next agenda item is a public hearing on the FY 2025 budget ordinance and annual appropriation and tax rate and tax levy ordinance.
  • 02:40:25
    It's the first of two readings.
  • 02:40:27
    Chrissy?
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:40:33
    Good evening.
  • 02:40:35
    Good evening, Council.
  • 02:40:38
    Tonight is a public hearing on the budget.
  • 02:40:41
    You have in your packet a copy of the budget ordinance for the 2025 proposed budget.
  • 02:40:48
    The budget proposes just over $251 million.
  • 02:40:52
    As you know, we've been discussing, this is one of many opportunities we've had to work on this budget.
  • 02:40:58
    The budget includes three tax increases.
  • 02:41:02
    That's a percent on meals, a percent on lodging, and two cents on the real estate tax.
  • 02:41:08
    The line items of the budget are detailed within the ordinance.
  • 02:41:13
    And with that, if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them or we can go to the public hearing.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:41:18
    Any questions or clarification?
  • 02:41:21
    Can you turn off that light?
  • 02:41:22
    Thank you.
  • 02:41:25
    Any questions from
• • Michael Payne
  • 02:41:27
    I guess one question.
  • 02:41:32
    So I'm not saying we will or won't do this, but a conversation topic that has come up is the personal property tax rate.
  • 02:41:39
    What, if any, deadlines exist for that?
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:41:43
    So we have not currently advertised any changes in the personal property tax rate.
  • 02:41:49
    That would require a seven day advertisement and a public hearing on that as well.
  • 02:41:53
    And the city charter requires that we have the budget adopted by April 15th.
• • Michael Payne
  • 02:41:59
    So practically this week we would need to finalize whether we are or aren't doing anything.
  • 02:42:04
    Correct.
  • 02:42:05
    Thank you.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:42:06
    And I know that's something we were looking into.
  • 02:42:08
    Are we still looking into that?
• • Sam Sanders
  • 02:42:10
    At this moment it would be a matter of whatever you all would like to do and that expression of the support.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:42:17
    I think that would facilitate a special meeting of council.
• • Michael Payne
  • 02:42:23
    So perhaps by our Thursday work session we have discussions amongst ourselves and figure out where the majority's at.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 02:42:29
    Yeah, I thought there was going to be some follow-up in terms of like what would be involved in Councilor Oschrin's suggestion.
• • Sam Sanders
  • 02:42:36
    There was, well I gave a reaction to it from the Commissioner of Revenue's perspective that the- There was an email that came out?
  • 02:42:42
    The escalated version was against the Dillon Rule that we would not be able to do that.
  • 02:42:46
    There was an email to that effect?
  • 02:42:48
    Responded to Ms. Oschrin.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:42:51
    Just me.
  • 02:42:52
    Okay.
  • 02:42:52
    And then I requested that we continue to follow up with just the flat rate expiration of that.
• • Sam Sanders
  • 02:42:58
    Right, and in that moment that would be amongst the five of you making a decision to identify what it is that you would like us to do.
  • 02:43:04
    There's nothing for me to tell you at that moment.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:43:06
    Okay, I thought you were going to talk to Mr.
  • 02:43:08
    Divers about- No, you're free to change the tax rate.
• • Sam Sanders
  • 02:43:11
    There was nothing to discuss in that regard.
  • 02:43:13
    If you were just going to make a different change in regards to levying a higher property tax rate, that's your call.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:43:19
    Oh, I misunderstood that.
  • 02:43:21
    I thought you had said that it would take going back to Mr.
  • 02:43:24
    Divers to find out some information.
• • Sam Sanders
  • 02:43:25
    If there was a different version on that variation and the model that was identified, that would be a different conversation.
  • 02:43:32
    I took it to mean that you were just interested in a blanket increase consideration, so therefore talking to your peers about that.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:43:39
    I am interested in that, but after that I thought you still needed to talk to Todd about something.
  • 02:43:45
    No.
  • 02:43:46
    Oh, okay.
  • 02:43:46
    In that case, I was proposing a flat personal property tax increase to replace the meals tax and potentially some of the real estate tax revenue.
  • 02:43:57
    I've got some math to show for that.
  • 02:43:59
    I haven't got a chance to talk to Mayor Wade or Councillor Snook about that yet.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:44:07
    So it's my understanding that the mill tax, what's the numbers like?
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:44:14
    So there's a fun spreadsheet with math and you can plug in different amounts, but basically the personal property tax is where we have room to grow and the reason why, here actually I have a little something written about it, give me just one sec.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:44:36
    So that's for like vehicles, things like that?
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:44:40
    Yes.
  • 02:44:40
    And so what we can do is we can have different rates for different categories within the personal property taxes because it covers cars, bikes, boats, but also industrial machinery.
  • 02:44:50
    And so I wouldn't necessarily want to apply a rate increase to industrial machinery that is in the course of business, but for personal.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:44:59
    But that's going to impact pretty much everyone because a lot of people have vehicles.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:45:06
    Yes.
  • 02:45:06
    So the initial suggestion and what I was informed would be against the Dillon Rule was that we couldn't do a progressive rate like the income tax where your first 10,000 car is this, the next bit is this.
  • 02:45:20
    I think it would probably be helpful to send you some info about it.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:45:24
    I just know this late in the game.
  • 02:45:29
    I may consider it at least personally for next year as we have a little bit more time to digest it I know that that is something that you know maybe everyone does they may not have a house they may not eat out a lot a lot of people have vehicles and I'm just not comfortable personally you know so
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:45:47
    This is not something that I was intending to spring on everybody today.
  • 02:45:50
    I thought I was still waiting for feedback from the Commissioner of Revenue.
  • 02:45:54
    And then I was going to continue to present it to the rest of the Council.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:45:57
    Well, let's kind of see if there's enough support for it to be considered.
  • 02:46:02
    I know that we need at least three to consider.
  • 02:46:04
    So maybe you want to talk a little bit more about to give Brian and Lloyd and Michael some— I would at least like to hear what it is.
• • Michael Payne
  • 02:46:11
    Yeah, I'm totally open to hearing more about it.
  • 02:46:14
    I haven't made up a decision about if that's the direction to go or not.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:46:21
    I have a little something I can read that I prepared before when I thought we might be able to get the progressive amount on the way.
  • 02:46:33
    We have the chance with the personal property increase to do something creative and progressive.
  • 02:46:37
    Not as progressive as if we could do a graduated rate adjustment, but I realize that phasing in common class and collective bargaining is the right thing to do.
  • 02:46:49
    But my chance to express that opinion as phasing it in as a councilor never really existed because I joined in this particular strategy and budget session too late.
  • 02:46:57
    But it's not too late for me to follow through on my campaign platform goals and ideas.
  • 02:47:02
    The voters supported me for my housing, transit, and urbanism ideas, so there's a desire to deprioritize cars and reprioritize people in shelter.
  • 02:47:10
    Those are my priorities.
  • 02:47:12
    I recently told a constituent that I remembered seeing a sign at a local hardware store when I was a kid that said fast, good, or cheap.
  • 02:47:19
    Pick any two.
  • 02:47:21
    When you're planning a city that changes to cars, people, trees, pick any two.
  • 02:47:25
    I pick people and green spaces for people to enjoy.
  • 02:47:28
    Deprioritizing cars means that more land use can go towards our climate goals, safer streets, shorter commutes, and economic prosperity for local businesses buoyed by foot traffic and outdoor dining.
  • 02:47:40
    In line with this vision, which again was supported by the majority of voters, I'd like to propose leaving the real estate tax and the meals tax alone.
  • 02:47:49
    This was before the adjustment, so I don't know if we can do that entirely, but that was the initial goal.
  • 02:47:56
    People need shelter and they need to eat.
  • 02:47:58
    So instead we should increase the personal property tax so we can fully fund our budget and make strides in our climate and transit goals.
  • 02:48:05
    As you all are aware, there's nine strategic outcome areas that were selected last year to prioritize.
  • 02:48:15
    Taxing personal property instead of homes and meals makes clear direct progress not just in climate and transportation, but in six of those nine.
  • 02:48:23
    Climate action, economic prosperity, housing, public safety, recreation, and transportation.
  • 02:48:30
    Lower personal property taxes are a hidden subsidy for cars and we need to stop doing that.
  • 02:48:35
    We subsidize cars with free parking and incredibly inexpensive permit parking fees.
  • 02:48:40
    It costs seven cents a day to rent the space for a permit parking spot, a gross undervaluing of city land.
  • 02:48:46
    That counts all 365 days, I'm not sure.
  • 02:48:49
    It changes slightly if you discount the weekends.
  • 02:48:51
    In a city like ours, in a country like ours that has been redesigned and renewed to make space for cars instead of people,
  • 02:48:59
    In that environment where public transit isn't adequate yet, where sidewalks and protected bike lanes are missing, folks are basically required to own a car for getting around, which is an equity concern in addition to a land use disaster.
  • 02:49:18
    We are, I am, working on changing that.
  • 02:49:21
    It costs money to own and operate a vehicle, so it's already a tax of sorts.
  • 02:49:27
    That's where I was hoping we could do the progressive property tax.
  • 02:49:30
    Unfortunately, we can.
  • 02:49:31
    It would be a flat increase.
  • 02:49:34
    But there's already some adjustments available in that.
  • 02:49:39
    For example, disabled vets are already exempt from personal property taxes.
  • 02:49:46
    We can leave the industrial machine category alone.
  • 02:49:49
    Bicycles, e-bikes would already be exempt.
  • 02:49:52
    The city's priorities are not found in its mission statement but in its budget.
  • 02:49:55
    Changing the personal property tax accomplishes the goal of proving that our priorities are climate and transit focused, as well as addressing equity concerns of our residents in need.
  • 02:50:06
    We already collect more real estate taxes per capita than most comparable cities in Virginia and adding a percent to the meals tax is considered regressive.
  • 02:50:14
    Adjusting the personal property tax means we can close our budget gap, leave those other taxes where they are or increase them less and make progress on our strategic initiatives.
  • 02:50:24
    We can show that we're serious about making our city safer, more livable and more affordable.
  • 02:50:29
    So my proposal was if we need to raise
  • 02:50:38
    If we need to raise, with a flat rate, $5.2 million, which would be the gap to fund the schools at $7 million and make up the remainder, not
  • 02:50:54
    factored it.
  • 02:50:55
    So there's already going to be an increase in revenue from meals and real estate just by nature of inflation and increase other stuff.
  • 02:51:04
    So the amount that is not coming from the tax increase, you discount that, there's still a gap left.
  • 02:51:12
    So this funds that.
  • 02:51:14
    If we go from 420, which is our current rate, to about $6, that makes that up.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 02:51:22
    So I don't have a
  • 02:51:24
    I don't have a problem with the concept, I just
  • 02:51:32
    would need to see some confirmation from the revenue folks.
  • 02:51:37
    It seems like a straightforward enough idea that I feel kind of dumb that I didn't think about it two years ago.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:51:44
    Well, and I do want to clarify that that calculation was based off a lot of assumptions, not knowing the exact number of vehicles, the exact value of vehicles, all of that.
  • 02:51:53
    That was not accessible to me when I was doing this, but I estimated approximate number of households multiplied by approximate number of cars per household.
  • 02:52:01
    with some guesstimations about the value.
  • 02:52:04
    So we would need input from our actual Office of Revenue to get correct numbers on that, so.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 02:52:10
    Right, so is it possible, Mr. Mayor, to give Mr.
  • 02:52:15
    Divers two days and come talk to us on Thursday about what that might look like?
  • 02:52:20
    In other words, we're way down to the wire here, so if it's not practical, it's not practical.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:52:29
    We have been given the number, I just can't find it right now, but one additional cent.
  • 02:52:34
    $30,000 per cent.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:52:36
    So one cent of the real estate, is that what you're talking about for the taxes?
  • 02:52:41
    One cent on real estate is 1.1.
  • 02:52:43
    One percent on meals is a little over 3 million.
  • 02:52:48
    So it would be 5 million.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 02:52:50
    Yeah, and I think Councilor Oschrin's point, which she made to me, is that slide is helpful, but the scale is completely different.
  • 02:53:00
    I mean, in other words, one cent
  • 02:53:06
    to compare it to a meals tax where you're going to get a million dollars from like an incremental change or three million I guess or the real estate tax where you get a million dollars from a sort of standard incremental change versus a penny on
  • 02:53:24
    The property tax, I guess it'd be helpful to know sort of, I could figure it out here, but what would it take to get something equivalent to half a percent meals tax equivalent with property tax?
  • 02:53:42
    What would the, from 420, in other words, I get the fact of the slide, but it would be, I think more helpful if we said 10 cents got you X versus one cent.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:53:53
    Yeah, we kind of ignored it at the beginning because it seemed like such a paltry number.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:53:58
    But 10 cents on the meals tax or 10 on personal property.
  • 02:54:01
    Because we just got a one penny, we were like, oh, 30 pounds.
  • 02:54:04
    So we didn't give you a penny on personal property.
  • 02:54:06
    The only thing we gave you was on real estate.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:54:08
    No, on the slide from the presentations way before, it was like, if you do an adjustment for each of these things, this would be the increase in revenue you would get.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:54:16
    And some of that's varied because we're still adjusting for values, correct?
• • 02:54:21
    Yeah.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:54:22
    So to I think answer your question, if we were to cut the meals tax, the meals tax rate by instead of going up 1% goes up 0.5%.
  • 02:54:37
    That's a difference of $1.5 million.
  • 02:54:41
    That works out to about 50 cents on the property tax rate.
  • 02:54:47
    So 420 would go to 470.
  • 02:54:50
    which I think would be pretty close to the highest in the state.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:54:54
    There's several localities that are at five and a half at six.
  • 02:54:59
    We are at kind of definitely the top of collecting per capita for real estate tax, but we're not at the top for personal property.
  • 02:55:11
    And if it helps, I know one of the concerns is people register their cars in the county.
  • 02:55:18
    The county is also considering raising their personal property tax rates, not to where we are.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:55:24
    So just a note on that though, I believe the county dropped their personal property tax rate when the assessments went up.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:55:30
    Correct, and they're raising it.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:55:34
    But I think what they're proposing raising it to still is going to be less than where we are right now.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:55:39
    Correct.
  • 02:55:39
    It's still in the high threes.
  • 02:55:41
    That's true.
  • 02:55:41
    I think it's going to $3.92, I think.
  • 02:55:44
    $3.92, I think.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 02:55:47
    Just to kick the tires around, if we were to say half a percent of the meal stacks, which is roughly $1.5 million, is there a way, Mr.
  • 02:55:59
    Divers, between now and
  • 02:56:00
    Thursday for you to say this is what it would look like in terms of changes to property tax that we've at least had a chance to honor Councilor Oschrin's idea here.
  • 02:56:10
    I think it's a good idea.
  • 02:56:11
    I have concerns about the practical execution of it and also the late, you know, sort of the late date.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:56:19
    Would we be able to get a public hearing in for that?
  • 02:56:24
    Would you all be able to schedule a special meeting so that we could actually do the seven day notice?
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:56:31
    If it's Thursday, if we find out Thursday, what is Thursday?
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:56:34
    The 7th and 4th, excuse me.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:56:37
    And then if we do it the next day, is it certain special now with the paper?
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:56:43
    It's tight.
  • 02:56:44
    I'm not sure.
  • 02:56:45
    So we might not even get that in?
• • Kyna Thomas
  • 02:56:47
    No, if the decision is made on Thursday, the 11th is also a Thursday and that would be the probably the advertisement day.
  • 02:56:56
    I don't think we could get it to them.
  • 02:56:58
    in a week and have it in seven days.
  • 02:57:00
    I think we still would need at least nine days because we need to get it to the paper at least two days before publishing, right?
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 02:57:10
    So it sounds like it's...
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:57:12
    I mean, we are certainly willing to try.
  • 02:57:14
    We can reach out, but I guess we'd have to figure out when you all could schedule the special meeting and we would have to figure out if we could do the advertisement.
  • 02:57:23
    We can certainly reach out tomorrow and see if that's possible.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:57:27
    Could we just do it on the 15th as a part of our regular meeting?
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:57:33
    Sure.
  • 02:57:35
    Point of order, if we adopt on the 15th, is that in compliance?
• • SPEAKER_22
  • 02:57:40
    As long as you conduct the public hearing prior to the adoption of your budget, it would be permissible for you to conduct the public hearing on the personal property tax increase on the 15th of April.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 02:57:57
    and then incorporate that into the budget resolution.
• • SPEAKER_22
  • 02:58:01
    Yes, and so then after you conducted the public hearing and closed the public hearing, you could then amend your proposed budget to make whatever changes you'd like to make as a result of the public hearing.
• • Kyna Thomas
  • 02:58:17
    So then we would not need to meet on the 9th at all?
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 02:58:21
    What do you mean?
  • 02:58:22
    This is going to result in less meetings?
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:58:27
    And I promise I wasn't holding this back.
  • 02:58:30
    I thought I was waiting on your response.
• • Kyna Thomas
  • 02:58:32
    I just need to clarify because I have to get the agendas and the notices.
• • SPEAKER_22
  • 02:58:36
    And to the clerk's point, to the extent that council wants to move forward with this tentative plan, it's eminently achievable in terms of
  • 02:58:50
    of the timing, but I think to the clerk's point I believe the only item for consideration on the 9th would be the adoption of the budget and if this change were to be made then arguably council might want to consider dispensing with that meeting unless
  • 02:59:07
    it wanted additional time to discuss the budget but you'd be discussing the budget before you've conducted the public hearing.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 02:59:13
    And so theoretically we could move to advertise this because an advertisement isn't a guarantee and then we do that tomorrow then Thursday or as soon as possible we hear some options and then You need advertisement seven days
• • SPEAKER_22
  • 02:59:32
    for a seven-day period before consideration.
  • 02:59:34
    So you would back that off of the April 15th day.
  • 02:59:38
    And of course, you know, math is never the lawyer's best subject.
  • 02:59:42
    But if it appeared on April 8th, I think that would satisfy the statutory requirement, if it did appear.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 02:59:50
    Well, today is Monday, so if it follows, we might be able to – if we're lucky, we might be able to get the add-in on this Saturday.
  • 02:59:58
    That would be the 6th.
  • 03:00:02
    That would give us the 13th, so you'd be able to do it by the 15th.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 03:00:06
    So I just want to make sure that Sam understands what...
  • 03:00:14
    I do.
  • 03:00:15
    Can you repeat it to make sure that...
• • Sam Sanders
  • 03:00:20
    Initially we were looking to eliminate the need to raise five million dollars in taxes through the meals tax and real estate proposed increases which will determine is that possible and I also heard maybe we could look at half a percent on the meals tax which is 1.5 million and the question is what does that generate?
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 03:00:45
    And we need to know the max that you want to
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:00:50
    The only thing I would be interested, I don't know about others, is what we could get from half a percent, the 1.5, if we could replace half a percent of meals taxed with property taxes, that's all that I would really be prepared to do right at this point.
• • Michael Payne
  • 03:01:19
    And that's all I would be interested in as well.
  • 03:01:22
    And I'll say all I'm really looking for is to confirm whether that math is accurate about, just get a sense of what increase equals what dollar amount.
  • 03:01:32
    And to be clear, my mind is not made up.
  • 03:01:36
    My biggest concern with any of these taxes is which is the least regressive.
  • 03:01:40
    They're all bad, but what is the least regressive?
  • 03:01:43
    And so I will say I'm very open to discussing it, going through scenarios, but I'm initially a little skeptical just because poor people and working people still drive cars.
  • 03:01:55
    and we don't have the bus system that we want.
  • 03:01:58
    We didn't even fund bus drivers to get to our pre-pandemic service and the economic literature is very clear that the real estate tax is the most progressive before you even factor in the fact that we have a real estate tax relief program.
  • 03:02:14
    So that's my only skepticism but I am completely open to discussing it and I would like to read more about personal property taxes and see what the literature is about how regressive they are.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 03:02:24
    But you don't have any, I mean, this is it as far as, you know, different ideas to put on the table for us to consider.
• • Sam Sanders
  • 03:02:33
    Right.
  • 03:02:37
    So again, we're confirming that the pursuit that we are undertaking at this time is to identify what amount of a property tax increase would replace half a percent increase on the meals tax.
  • 03:02:52
    So roughly 1.5 million dollars.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:02:54
    That's to me all I would be comfortable with.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 03:02:58
    So you would still want to do meals, lodging, and personal property?
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 03:03:04
    And real estate.
  • 03:03:08
    I was hoping to eliminate a couple of those.
• • Sam Sanders
  • 03:03:12
    I think that's the basis for me not moving forward because this needs to happen.
  • 03:03:18
    There was no clarity for me in that moment, so I do apologize for not reading that I needed to do something else.
  • 03:03:25
    What about if we do this next year?
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 03:03:28
    Well, next year we're going to have an even higher budget and more places to pull it from.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:03:34
    I know, but we'll have almost a year to sort this out.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 03:03:37
    Yeah, I think that the time value of money means that the money in our pockets now is worth more than the money next year.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:03:46
    I think the confusion that this is going to bring to staff is also something to be weighed.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 03:03:51
    So we're not talking about getting more money.
  • 03:03:53
    We're just talking about getting different.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 03:03:55
    Moving it around.
• • 03:03:58
    Right.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 03:03:58
    I think we technically do have the time.
  • 03:04:01
    Yes, it is different and new, but I don't necessarily think that means it's not worth exploring.
  • 03:04:09
    I think we haven't gotten accurate numbers to explore yet.
  • 03:04:12
    We kind of didn't do our due diligence at the beginning by thinking about it back then.
  • 03:04:18
    I mean, I missed it too.
  • 03:04:23
    I would like to see some information about it, see what we could do for that.
• • Sam Sanders
  • 03:04:33
    That's what we'll do.
  • 03:04:36
    So what does that mean practically then?
  • 03:04:38
    So we'll get it to you as soon as we possibly can and if not before 6 o'clock on Thursday.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 03:04:43
    Well we'll need to do it before Thursday to have time to advertise.
• • Sam Sanders
  • 03:04:47
    That's why I said what I did as soon as possible.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:04:49
    So the notion is again 1.5 billion dollars roughly.
  • 03:04:52
    Is what we're looking for.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 03:04:53
    If there's general at least hypothetical interest it seems like the numbers
  • 03:05:04
    I don't think they've changed much over the last few years in terms of what a penny would be.
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 03:05:13
    I don't know if I'd go that far.
  • 03:05:15
    I mean vehicle valuations have fluctuated quite a bit and we're still wrestling with the 24 personal property book.
  • 03:05:25
    This is going to be exciting.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:05:31
    What are your concerns?
  • 03:05:35
    Be honest.
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 03:05:39
    We're still valuing vehicles for 2024 right now.
  • 03:05:44
    We're not exactly sure where that's going to land.
  • 03:05:47
    I mean it's going to be in the ballpark of where
  • 03:05:49
    You know, where Chrissy's projections are, but I don't know how precise it's going to be.
  • 03:05:56
    Also, I've got a few folks that I would like to have involved in this who were on vacation this week, so that's going to be fun.
  • 03:06:06
    But we'll give it a college try, you know.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 03:06:10
    If your original guesstimate that we were given was that one cent equals $30,500 or something like that,
  • 03:06:19
    And we're making our guesstimate for now on the basis of $30,000 roughly.
  • 03:06:26
    Is it reasonable to think that we're still in the same ballpark?
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 03:06:31
    Yeah.
  • 03:06:32
    I mean, based on what I know now without having actually run any numbers.
  • 03:06:36
    Yeah.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:06:38
    Because I'm more interested in basically this is a nevermind.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 03:06:46
    I think where it still gets to be a progressive is someone without the means is not going to be buying a $78,000 pickup truck.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:06:55
    I guess I would just be interested to know, and we've had these conversations a lot about the other taxes, and I've kind of got a conceptual framework around it, but if we basically are increasing personal property taxes by an order of magnitude, is that right?
  • 03:07:22
    10 times?
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 03:07:23
    Well, a little over 10%.
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 03:07:24
    50 cents.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 03:07:25
    Okay.
  • 03:07:26
    50 cents as opposed to 420.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:07:28
    So only about 10%.
  • 03:07:29
    Yeah.
  • 03:07:30
    Okay.
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 03:07:31
    11.7 or something.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:07:33
    I can deal with that.
  • 03:07:34
    I can live with that.
• • SPEAKER_17
  • 03:07:35
    You didn't ask this, but I'm going to offer it anyway.
  • 03:07:40
    When vehicle values were up in 2020 because of COVID, we heard more about that than we did about the real estate rate that year.
  • 03:07:54
    Because people pay that out of their pocket.
  • 03:07:56
    They don't have a mortgage company that's taking care of it for them.
  • 03:07:59
    They actually see that check go out.
  • 03:08:02
    So they know exactly how much more they're paying.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:08:05
    Well, I largely agree with Councilor Oschrin in terms of, you know, her views about cars.
  • 03:08:11
    And I don't know, I think if this is a tool that we have, I'd be interested.
  • 03:08:18
    I'm more concerned really about having the time to kind of socialize it and think through it.
  • 03:08:22
    It takes me a while, as you know, and staff in terms of being able to pull all this off.
  • 03:08:30
    But I guess you've got a day or two to
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 03:08:33
    So yeah, I just want to make sure it's at least three councilors that want staff to pursue this.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:08:42
    So I'm just going to kind of go down to make sure that... Yeah, but we're going to get like a couple days and then that's going to be it.
  • 03:08:50
    I'm going to pull the rip cord and go back with...
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 03:08:53
    I just want to say, can we just clarify, because I think Councilor Oschrin's original proposal was no meals, no real estate, and personal property instead, but now we're doing meals, real estate, and reduce, I mean, the meals tax.
  • 03:09:09
    Reduce meals half a percent?
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:09:10
    So there will be four tax changes.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 03:09:12
    Okay.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:09:13
    Real estate, meals tax, but instead of it being three, it would be 2.5?
  • 03:09:19
    No.
  • 03:09:20
    Anyway, half a percent less.
  • 03:09:22
    Lodging.
  • 03:09:24
    Lodging and personal property.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 03:09:26
    So we're doing all four taxes to get 5.2 which is what you said.
  • 03:09:32
    Right.
• • Brian Pinkston
  • 03:09:34
    That would be what I would be comfortable with.
  • 03:09:36
    I'm not comfortable with like rethinking the whole tax structure at this point.
• • Lloyd Snook
  • 03:09:41
    Lloyd.
  • 03:09:46
    I don't know where I would come out on it, but I would certainly be willing to learn more about it.
  • 03:09:51
    Let's learn more about it.
  • 03:09:54
    Michael?
• • Michael Payne
  • 03:09:56
    I'm willing to learn more about it, but again, as I said, I raise the skepticism I have and just say again, I think if we're going to increase taxes, we should just follow the economic literature and go with the real estate because they all suck, but at least that has a root for it.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 03:10:13
    Four taxes is worse than three taxes.
  • 03:10:15
    So I mean I'm outvoted but I'm not you know, but you it sounds like we have enough support to pursue it and but we need to make sure that any other proposals this is
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 03:10:28
    The last day, yeah.
  • 03:10:29
    And I want to just have two small things.
  • 03:10:32
    One is I don't necessarily agree that all taxes are bad.
  • 03:10:37
    I mean, it's part of the social contract.
  • 03:10:40
    It's how we fund the things we want.
  • 03:10:43
    tax rate that we have on our real estate right now is one of the highest, not necessarily rate-wise in the state, but when you use it as a multiplier with assessments is one of the highest collections per capita in the state.
  • 03:10:58
    We are comparable with
  • 03:11:04
    No one our size, and then only with kind of the more expensive Northern Virginia cities, which is not, that's not our milieu.
  • 03:11:12
    So there's only so high we can go on that, and next year we're gonna come in with a bigger budget, need more funding, where else do we go?
  • 03:11:23
    We can't keep squeezing people on that.
  • 03:11:25
    It does trickle down to renters, which we know is the majority of people in Charlottesville.
  • 03:11:29
    and as we are looking at our budget you know we just had the CIP work session we are working on transit we are building sidewalks and bike lanes and working on an e-bike subsidy program and all things that can be counteracted if you're going to get taxed out of something I'd rather someone gets taxed out of their car than their house.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 03:11:52
    Any other comments right now?
• • Natalie Oschrin
  • 03:11:54
    Not that I want either of those things to happen just to clarify.
• • Michael Payne
  • 03:11:58
    We don't need to get into the full debate but I'll just say again the economic literature is very clear that it's more progressive and we have a relief program and the value of your home is going to track inflation as well as wealth that you have.
  • 03:12:11
    It's a real conversation to have but again I mean poor and working people, they do drive cars, they do work in the county, they can't rely on our bus system.
  • 03:12:20
    but to reorient to the budget public hearing to confirm we don't have any funding to add additional drivers to even return our bus service to what it was before the pandemic.
  • 03:12:32
    So we'll still be in lifeline service.
• • Krisy Hammill
  • 03:12:35
    Correct.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 03:12:39
    OK. OK, I'm going to open up, so I'm not sure what the what the public is.
  • 03:12:49
    There was a bit more, I'm sorry.
  • 03:12:51
    I didn't mean to laugh like that.
  • 03:12:55
    So we had a public hearing on tax levy and the budget, ordinance appropriation and tax rate levies.
  • 03:13:08
    So would anyone like to...
• • SPEAKER_15
  • 03:13:20
    I'm Zach Brown, I live in the Belmont neighborhood and I'd like to know when's the last time any of y'all went to the grocery store or anywhere for that matter.
  • 03:13:31
    Milk's going up a lot, eggs are going up a lot, bread going up a lot, and gas, big shocker I'm sure, going up a lot.
  • 03:13:40
    Why do we need to be taxed out of anything?
  • 03:13:43
    Taxes should be minimal to begin with.
  • 03:13:45
    And if you really want to go down that road, personal property tax shouldn't exist to begin with.
  • 03:13:49
    But I won't go too far down there because that's, well, that's a landscape I don't really want to touch at the moment.
  • 03:13:56
    But why raise it?
  • 03:14:00
    Because you're just going to screw people.
  • 03:14:02
    I mean, I understand you're a government body.
  • 03:14:04
    That's inherently what you do anyway.
  • 03:14:07
    However, why?
  • 03:14:11
    I don't really care about a lot of things.
  • 03:14:15
    I do care about being left alone.
  • 03:14:19
    I very much like being left alone by government bodies.
  • 03:14:23
    That includes personal property taxes.
  • 03:14:26
    Why do we need to be taxed out of anything at all?
  • 03:14:30
    We'd rather be taxed out of our car.
  • 03:14:32
    Why should we be taxed out of that?
  • 03:14:35
    None of you were present when I went to buy my car.
  • 03:14:38
    None of you were present when I went to buy my home.
  • 03:14:43
    And if you really want to get down to it, none of you deserve a dime of it.
  • 03:14:47
    And I got to pay, so I'm going to yield the rest.
  • 03:14:51
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_03
  • 03:14:57
    My name is Emma Gunter.
  • 03:14:59
    I live on Chelsea Drive near Jefferson Park Avenue.
  • 03:15:03
    I understand it's too late in the year to consider finding the funding to bring our bus service back to pre-pandemic levels, but that needs to be a priority going forward.
  • 03:15:14
    As it stands right now, there are no buses in the city of Charlottesville on Sundays, meaning that anybody in Charlottesville that relies on public transit to get to work either has to walk, Uber, bum a ride, and this is a southern city where walk-in up to Walmart just ain't possible.
  • 03:15:34
    We need the bus service to get back to where it is.
  • 03:15:38
    Just please, if you want to improve the lives,
  • 03:15:43
    of the poor citizens in the city of Charlottesville, then find the money for it.
  • 03:15:51
    I would love to pay more in meals taxes or lodging for that.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 03:15:58
    Thank you.
  • 03:16:00
    Anyone else like to speak?
• • SPEAKER_31
  • 03:16:09
    Don Gathers again, city resident.
  • 03:16:11
    I am going to beg to differ and say that all taxes are bad.
  • 03:16:17
    Just a few years ago, my wife and I, our personal property taxes went up $56,000 over a two year period.
  • 03:16:26
    $56,000 when we made no substantial upgrades to the home whatsoever.
  • 03:16:34
    So I agree with the previous gentleman who spoke about personal property taxes, and I don't understand the mindset or the necessity to feel like we have to tax anyone out of anything.
  • 03:16:45
    Eventually and essentially what's going to happen is you're going to tax your residents right out of the city.
  • 03:16:50
    That may be the end game for some of you, but the low income people will not be able to remain in this city.
  • 03:16:59
    And I just want you all to marinate on that for a moment.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 03:17:05
    Thank you.
  • 03:17:06
    Anyone else like to speak on this?
  • 03:17:11
    Yes sir.
• • SPEAKER_25
  • 03:17:18
    Well thank you all for giving me a few minutes today.
  • 03:17:20
    My name is Phil Hamilton, Albemarle County resident and I also agree with other two individuals who spoke.
  • 03:17:29
    We should not be raising taxes time.
  • 03:17:32
    We shouldn't be taxed out of our cars.
  • 03:17:34
    We shouldn't be taxed out of anything.
  • 03:17:36
    There's our property.
  • 03:17:37
    We have a right to own these things.
  • 03:17:40
    And we should have a government that should work with us to encourage in a capitalistic system that more people can acquire the things that they need, including vehicles, so they get to and from work.
  • 03:17:51
    And I know if I didn't have a vehicle, I mean, my income stream would be reduced by at least 90 percent.
  • 03:17:59
    For me, a vehicle is absolutely essential for the work that I do.
  • 03:18:03
    and from many others who live in Charlottesville City and in the county.
  • 03:18:08
    Another thing I wanted to note is with local government, you consider resolutions and the last one that was just voted on about the ceasefire now.
  • 03:18:24
    and I disagree with it.
• • Michael Payne
  • 03:18:26
    Point of order?
  • 03:18:26
    This is not on public hearing?
• • SPEAKER_25
  • 03:18:29
    Well, I think it needs to be in the trash.
  • 03:18:32
    That's where it belongs.
  • 03:18:33
    Thank you.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 03:18:34
    Anyone else like to speak on the FY 25 budget ordinance and annual appropriation?
• • SPEAKER_13
  • 03:18:47
    Dan Miller, resident of Belmont.
  • 03:18:50
    Mayor Wade, I'm sorry for blinding you with myself on the flashlight when I walked in.
  • 03:18:54
    I don't think that's normal procedure here, so I do apologize.
  • 03:18:59
    Yeah, I did want to mention
  • 03:19:01
    Nobody likes paying taxes.
  • 03:19:02
    I don't like paying taxes.
  • 03:19:04
    But I think we're obviously having a discussion here about how to do that in the fairest, most progressive way we can.
  • 03:19:11
    And I think that's I'm picking up on that energy that we want to do that in a responsible way and kind of make the best of a bad situation.
  • 03:19:21
    I happen to not be a low income resident of Charlottesville, and I'm certainly on board with
  • 03:19:25
    you know paying in some in some graduated way into the city that we live in to improve it and I think we can all when we have the space to think about it kind of agree with that norm that you know we should have a way of adjusting that burden based on your income at least I think that's not a super controversial stance and I often sit in these meetings and I hear the
  • 03:19:52
    sort of normative constraint around our ability to act in a reasonable way and it always comes back to this Dillon rule and I'd like to, maybe this is a naive comment, but it's frustrating to me to constantly hear that what I understand to be a pretty nebulous kind of procedural thing constantly constraining our ability to act.
  • 03:20:13
    I may not know what I'm talking about, but I would like to be able to see
  • 03:20:18
    Councilmember Oschrin's proposal, for example, in its true form would be a way to implement a tax structure that would be responsive to people's income.
  • 03:20:29
    It would be nice to be able to see that happen and not feel like we're so constrained to broader forces.
  • 03:20:37
    So I appreciate your effort on it.
  • 03:20:38
    Obviously, I think it's something we have to pay into for our community.
  • 03:20:43
    So I appreciate your work there.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 03:20:46
    Thank you.
  • 03:20:47
    Anyone else like to speak?
• • SPEAKER_41
  • 03:20:52
    Hi, thank you all.
  • 03:20:54
    Claire Denton-Svelting.
  • 03:20:55
    I live in Fry's Spring.
  • 03:20:57
    And I want to say, you know, I went to grad school to study public policy and I understand that taxes are important.
  • 03:21:04
    Raising taxes is important for everything that we enjoy about Charlottesville.
  • 03:21:08
    Our roads, our parks, the people that drive our buses, our bus system.
  • 03:21:14
    And even though every time I look at my tax assessment, I open the envelope and I
  • 03:21:21
    have a little prayer.
  • 03:21:21
    I understand that the increase in my taxes funds the things that I love about Charlottesville.
  • 03:21:29
    And so I encourage you all to think about the personal property tax.
  • 03:21:33
    And thank you.
• • Juandiego Wade
  • 03:21:35
    Thank you.
  • 03:21:39
    Does anyone else like to speak?