Board of Architectural Review Meeting   9/17/2024

Let's call this meeting the order.

It's 531.

Like I mentioned, I don't have my preamble, so I'm going to do it from memory as best I can.

Welcome to this evening's monthly Board of Architectural Review meeting.

We've got a relatively short agenda, but a really good discussion.

I'm going to be having a little bit later.

Thank you.

For the agenda items, staff will introduce each item, followed by the applicant's presentation, which should not exceed 10 minutes.

The chair will then ask for questions from the public, followed by questions from the BAR.

After questions are closed, the chair will ask for comments from the public.

And then comments from the BAR.

For each application, members of the public are allowed to speak three minutes.

And please come up to the podium over here so that people on TV and watching online can hear you and identify yourself and provide your address.

Comments should be limited to the BAR's purview that is regarding only the exterior aspects of a project.

Following the BAR's discussion and prior to taking action, the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond.

Thank you, Breck.

Alrighty.

So the first item on the agenda is matters from the public, not on the agenda or on the consent agenda.

Currently the consent agenda just has minutes from August and 1309 West Main, the Graduate Hotel, replacing the stucco panels with EFIS.

All right, hearing nothing.

We'll go to that consent agenda.

Do we have anybody want to pull either thing off the consent agenda?

I stupidly didn't realize they're linked to not in our packets.

No.

I'm sure it's fine.

So moved.

All right, all in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Thank you.

It's an agenda carries.

All righty, no deferred items this evening.

The first new item is 409 Park Street, certificate of appropriateness for modifying fence height.

Is the applicant here for 409 Park?

Hey, welcome.

Thank you for coming.

There we go.

So just very quickly, this is a request.

The project is 409 Park Street.

This house was constructed in 1905.

It's in the north downtown ADC district that is contributing.

The request before you is there.

The applicant contacted me earlier this year about constructing a fence on the property and been working with them.

There's

and Michael Kochis

The goal was to have the two, the new fence align at that corner or align with the historic metal fence.

And the applicant had asked, this is early photo, but I think you've all seen the images.

And so the applicant would like this was how the fence was constructed.

And when I notified them that that's not how I had

understood my approval, but to allow it would have to go to you all.

And, Andy, you can... Yeah, the applicant wants to go ahead and

Should be a lot shorter than that.

Good afternoon everyone.

My name is Anthony Orsali.

I resided 409 Park Street along with my wife and we have three young children, five, four, and two, three little daughters.

We recently moved into the home, and as Jeff had mentioned earlier this year, I reached out to Jeff because the fence was really important to us because we have our daughters there.

Our only green space is up there in the front, so just to be able to have them use it.

and Jeff.

First of all, I want to say he's been such a tremendous help throughout this.

I really, really appreciate it.

He helped me walk me through this process.

It is a complicated process and we had to do the site plan approval and everything else, which is, I guess, new with the new zoning, which was great.

As, hopefully, you all have had the narrative that I wrote.

It's not very long.

But just to just kind of mention about that, because of its use and because of its location, we've had lots of people would walk through our property.

And they just found out it's a pass-through.

You come back from the alley and you want to go to Park Street, you go through.

Even now, even with the fence there, we still get the stragglers coming through.

Sadly,

One incident happened last month, another incident happened last year that were more dramatic.

There were legal activities happening on our property, specifically LUDACs happening on our property.

And obviously with three young daughters, we don't want anything like that happening again now that we live there.

We know the fence is not a perfect solution, but it's at least something.

It's a barrier.

So going back to what Jeff mentioned in terms of approval, our understanding of the approval was, and this is the misunderstanding, was that the fence height at this section was going to be

as it says in there, approximately 40 inches, based on this post on the other side.

So that's a continuation of the fence behind you as the picture, this is the picture I recently took.

The fence has been finished.

And there was at some point a gate there, you can see the gate stuff there, but who knows when it was removed, but it's been removed a long while ago.

We had actually asked our Fence contractor to make sure it's below that post, and that's where he did.

So that post is 39 inches tall.

The fence right now is 38 inches tall.

The point where the fence meets up there, the smaller section, that's 33 inches tall.

So what we're talking about is five inches.

It's between 33 and 38 inches.

Like I said, my understanding based on our conversations was that was the height we're talking about, but obviously there was a misunderstanding there.

I definitely don't blame Jeff on that one.

So that's what our request is to keep the fence as it is versus bringing it down five inches.

We just feel like that's just every inch counts for us in terms of safety and having, like I said, that's our only little green grass area.

It is very visible, and it's still going to be visible, but that area is right there where the traffic light is, where Park Street and High Street is.

Thank you.

Appreciate that.

Do we have any questions from the public?

Okay.

Thank you.

It is the property corner.

So where that the property used to be

How long ago did you put this fence up?

Oh, it's only been a couple of weeks now.

So there's another process he had to go through.

So that also got taken care of.

Any other questions?

All right.

Any comments from the public?

All right.

Let's go ahead.

I think had this come before us in the beginning, we probably would have said the same thing that Jeff said and make it line up with that corner post just because that looks nice neat and tidy.

But honestly, walking out on the site and looking at it, I don't think I would ever notice unless someone called my attention to it.

And because it does, it's less than four feet, so it technically meets our guidelines.

I'm OK approving as constructed.

I've got a comment.

I can also see why there was some confusion.

I also think because it was a minor review,

that staff was kind enough to create the diagram.

You did not, right?

Jeff created that.

So just to try to capture, and I know it wasn't just about this fence height.

It was about everything going on.

You have a lot of fence programming, as I would put it, going on all around the property.

But because it was generated by staff, and then you sent it to you and said, is this OK?

I mean, if I were someone wanting to get to the end, this has been a protracted discussion, not necessarily for this fence, but for everything else, I would have probably just said, yeah, fine, great.

Thanks for doing it for me.

And, and maybe not looked at it closely or, you know,

and certainly with textual, with emails that went back and forth discussing other heights and I knew it gets complicated because of the change in the topo and everything else.

I can see how this detail got lost.

And I really do feel like our applicants, and this is, you know, I mentioned this to Jeff,

No disrespect to our staff whatsoever, especially Jeff, who we really value a lot.

But I feel badly that any applicant, especially going through everything you've gone through, which is heightened paperwork, as we would say, because of this new zoning ordinance.

and

What they agreed on was quite different than what the other thought.

But I feel badly that you have to then come back and get our secondary approval, because Jeff's approval should have been enough, theoretically, in a perfect situation.

And this is just an example of how it can go sideways, not his fault, not your fault at all.

as a body that either we want to see it or Jeff needs to be able to decide it, but for us to have to, in combo, for you to have to go through this twice, I feel for you as a property owner.

It just is not a very concise way, especially when we're talking about a three and a half foot fence.

I do think the end result is clunky.

It seems like it doesn't line up.

It's hard to read the intention.

And if it had come before us drawn as such, I think we would have suggested changes to it.

That being said, I also think there are some pretty not very complicated ways that it could be improved.

where the top rail of the first two sections could be lowered and the posts shortened without a huge amount of effort.

It is pretty visible in a row of five houses that all have the wrought iron fences.

It does pop out to my eye.

So all that being said, I think it's kind of an unfortunate series of

I would encourage the applicant to resolve the fence height.

I think it would look a lot better.

I don't know that those several inches are going to have any effect on people passing through that site if there's not a gate at the street level.

But am I willing to deny it?

Um, I kind of agree with Breck.

I mean, I also agree with what y'all have pointed out to this kind of misconstrued.

I'm sorry.

Like, I'm wondering if the applicant would be willing to just

leaving the fence at the height that it is, but cut the top of the post off, flushed with the top of the fence, would put it about 37 and a half inches.

I did take a measurement earlier today.

So, just I think it would make it, and I mean, I know the fence posts further back or higher up, doesn't bother me quite as much.

It's just sort of because you've got like the top of the fence and then jumps up to the post and then down to the historic nul or ball of the

of the Metal Post.

It's sort of, yeah, step up.

I have absolutely no objection to cutting that post.

We're planning on cleaning up Lance here, and doing some other stuff there.

It's been a work in progress.

I know it's not perfect.

motion.

Sure.

So I'm going to make it as a recommendation to cut the top off.

Fair enough.

All right.

So having considered the standards set forth when the city code, including the ADC district design guidelines, I moved to find that the height of the painted wood fence at 409 Park Street as currently constructed on the south side satisfies the BAR's criteria and is compatible with this property and other properties in this ADC district that the BAR approves the request with the recommendation that you cut the

Can I just make sure I'm clear?

I understood you just saying.

To the red line, yeah.

That's the full of the red line.

There.

The red dashed line there.

Yes.

That's what I was suggesting is a compromise.

And also to clarify, the motion that was a recommendation, it was not a mandate.

All right.

I'll call a vote.

Mr. Timmerman.

Yes.

Approved.

Hi, Mr. Birle.

Aye.

Mr. Schwartz.

Yes.

Ms.

Lewis.

Aye.

Mr. Gastinger.

Aye.

Jerry.

Aye.

If you all recall the fence next to the haven that you looked at earlier this year, we found out that fences aren't allowed in the downtown district.

Hang on one second, let me

All right.

Now it's just my kids going in and out the front door.

All right.

That was our last official agenda item.

Now we're moving forward here.

My wife told me this morning, she can tell when I'm happy because I will do this.

So she said, have you ever done that during the BAR meeting?

I said, I don't know, but I will tonight.

sort of like in that Bohemian Rhapsody when he blows his mom a kiss, that was a kiss to my wife.

She's probably not even watching.

All right, here I found it.

I found it.

Okay, so

Just so everyone out there knows, we received this email Monday, the A.I.

Central Virginia.

We were, you all, were selected, I think it says it in here somewhere, for the

Community Service Award for Integrity and Honesty.

And the county ARB was also, so I don't know if you have to share it or take them to dinner.

They take you to dinner.

But there is an event on the 23rd at, in a word, Gala.

Yeah, October 23rd, somewhere.

So I'm not available, but I'll share information as I get it.

But congratulations.

And it's nice to get a positive acknowledgement for you all.

So there's that bit of news out of the way.

Do you get a trophy?

I got enough trophies at home.

I'll build you one.

We'll never miss it.

All right, so I'm trying to get to

Cafe Space Work Session.

And if you will indulge me for a second, I prepared, I did, I had right here in front of me, spreadsheets.

So these are, there's a few changes, but this is what I sent out on Monday.

So hopefully it'll be readable.

This is, I just, after, Kate and I, we had a lot of discussion about this last week and it's really how do we package this, how do we bundle it together.

Wait, there's one other thing I have to ask you first.

Forgive me.

It's been that kind of day.

Get it there in a minute.

All right.

Share screen.

Share this.

So I was asked, and I shouldn't make it specific.

This is a generic question, but it is associated with a specific place on West Main.

I was asked if I would approve these companies that make these vinyl entrances, these temporary vestibules that are popular in some of the towns and cities up north.

I haven't seen anything here, but the request was to add one at this restaurant on West Main.

My recommendation was that they could for a lot

That's why they probably just construct a small vestibule inside with the second door.

They don't want to do that.

And the other way these could be treated would be like tents in which it is temporary.

But we don't allow tents in front of contributing structures.

So I'm not opposed to them as a seasonal thing.

if circumstances warranted them.

But my concern, and it's not a one thing I raised was because of the there's a slope up to the door, it would have to open out of the sidewalk.

I caution the owner that just opening doors out on into the public right way could become problematic.

But so just curious if any immediate thoughts, concerns, we can revisit it, but

I'd share your concern about opening the door onto the sidewalk.

I also think you immediately have an ADA issue.

But the exterior door would swing out.

So that the concern is when they open the door and it's cold, let people complain.

And that's why I said, well, you could very simply construct

You know, a three by three vestibule to the inside, but they said, oh, that would make them lose multiple tables.

That's not for us to debate.

So as I said, again, I think it's a, we allow tents on a temporary basis.

We don't allow them in front of contributing structures.

The recessed entrance of this facade almost lends itself to doing something like this, but it doesn't mean I like it.

Yeah, I mean, this would have to be written in that it's only for the cold season.

That's a narrow sidewalk there.

We have to write our conditions.

I don't think they can do that.

Yeah, not one thing if they were to be considered, I wouldn't want that.

You know, for what it's worth, I don't, that is, I mean, given that it doesn't, it protrude past the building, and like in this condition, it doesn't bother me maybe as much as other people.

I don't know, I think if we were going to prove this, it would need to come to us with a formal COA.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

I mean, I would say over the years, there have been a lot of, not permanent changes, but there have been some modifications to this, and to this building, you know, you can go back and,

It's looking pretty good right now.

I just feel like those storefronts are really a character defining part of at least the first story of this building, along with a block glass.

and

because they wouldn't want to lose the seats again, right?

I like the tent analogy, but it's not a tent.

And they are kind of a portable, it's like putting a pod there or something.

Yeah.

And I'm afraid that that would set a precedent that in this case, especially really detracts from the I can think of so many other restaurants that have this issue that would want to I mean, not that that's a bad bad thing.

We want to be able to benefit property owners and business owners.

But

Well, I never want to tell someone, you know, the BR said no, but it's always helpful to be able to say, you know, you got to write me a check if you want to go formally, and I would, I will share with the applicant.

I think, you know, my questions would be, you know, what time of year, season, can they just be absolutely clear?

Maybe the thing can be,

Does it need to be entirely to the window?

I don't know.

And I was told by our code official that there's no problem with the door opening out into a street.

In fact, it needs to be fixed.

Well, I thought I would talk about the zoning code, because that's actually one, our zoning code might prevent this, just because you're supposed to have an entry feature, and that gets rid of your recessed entry feature.

So some questions I'll have, but I would not, I would let them know this was not a, this was not an enthusiastic response.

I think that would be a fair statement.

I had a random question that was not on your agenda, Jeff, whenever it's appropriate.

Go ahead.

So 707 East Jefferson Street, did that come before us?

I must get a question about that once a month or once a week.

It's not in a district.

Believe it or not, there's that corner.

like a little slab.

Well, I wanted to comment.

I just didn't remember it coming before us.

I'm surprised it's not individually designated, but we haven't done that a long time either.

But whoever has done this, and I kind of know who the owner is, but they removed all of the brick on this building, and they have put the brick back on, and it actually is

An excellent restoration.

I'm really impressed.

They've modified the top window a little bit on the third floor.

They must have had to get a building permit for that side porch, right?

I'm sure they did anyway.

They've added on a significant amount.

I mean, I thought it would be quite altered and the brickwork is actually really beautiful.

So if anybody goes by 707 East Jefferson between 7th and 8th Street on the other side of the

It was, it's Lee Construction.

They've just done a really, really nice job.

So yeah, it's all right.

Sorry, sorry.

Okay, thank you.

It's, one of the things we're fixing also in our system is,

Everything's supposed to come to me that has a building permit to review for a COA.

Unfortunately, the system sends me everything, every building permit.

So it's like, and there's parts, sometimes I have to go in and literally say, I have nothing to say.

because they say, well, just click wave.

I said, I'm not waving something without explaining why I'm waving it.

So yeah, but it's it's the volume of stuff that is where things are slipping through.

But Chuck Miller, the code official is really good at asking me about things.

So that's been working.

All right.

So very quickly here in this better

Kate, what did I do?

Sorry, it's become almost a standing joke.

Share screen.

So Jeff, while you're working on that, I wanted to talk about something really quickly that pertinent to this.

So I talked to one of our city councilors.

He was asking about like,

How are we doing making progress on updating the guidelines?

Well, then maybe there's some money for that.

So I just wanted to bring it up with this group and see if that is something we would be interested in.

I think we'd obviously want to be working closely with them and whatnot.

But we've done some work at this effort.

We've put some good hours in.

But it is, like I said, for a volunteer group, it's a kind of herculean task to do a complete

I don't think we need to do a complete rewrite, but just review and refresh the guidelines.

A place where a consultant could really help us look at where the new zoning ordinance and the guidelines are butting heads, if you will, and then bring those particular instances to us to, like, focus in on and get our feedback on and sort of weigh in.

I mean, complete agreement, not for the obvious reasons that, you know, none of us are lazy.

Carl's got a thought.

No, I know.

I've been on the board for eight years plus two.

OK.

So yeah, so.

Probably move.

Yeah, Jeff, I guess his advice was to maybe we can say formally at the BAR, yes, we think we need a consultant's assistance with

Our guideline revision and that to kind of help send that message up.

James is still up the hall and I talk regularly so we're well aware of this.

Some of it was waiting for the ordinance to get approved.

As we've talked several times, my goal was to have

B.A.R., at least locally, and I've been talking to Jenny Keller about these ideas that identifying and sort of determining the characteristics of the historic districts, it should be us, us in this community, not someone low-bid contractor.

I think we're better equipped to do that.

I told James Freese earlier this year I said if I had two weeks and I didn't have to do all my other stuff and knew at the end of those two weeks I didn't have to respond to all the emails that had piled up you know I could go through and make I know most of what these changes are so you're right time and resources out so we have said we have funds to

to access, but I also have conservation districts and I have the entrance corridor districts.

And yeah, it's been tough.

Yeah, this wasn't meant to be a reflection on y'all by any means.

Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

We all recognize it's a lot of work.

Yeah.

And so tonight is a first step in that direction.

And actually,

When you all earlier tonight asked me about when council discussed the tree management plan the other night, I thought they were getting ready to ask me a question because we've been talking about heights because I keep asking why are we, you know, you're going to spend how much money on trees and then you're going to approve possibly 10 story buildings on the south end of the mall.

We should make sure, you know, one or the other's got to, you know,

Prevail here.

And talking with Paul Josie earlier this summer about two ideas, one would be as a

as well.

just to sort of anticipate some of the problems.

I'm thinking a little bit of both makes sense, but to be able to say to applicants, when you come in, this is what information will want to see from you.

But also, I do think a conversation needs to be had with counsel in relative to this is what you've approved for zoning ordinance, and this is what it will do.

We can change the guidelines to accommodate that.

I'll let you know how that goes.

I have some funds, but tonight's project and the first thing that I want to tackle in the guidelines is the downtown mall cafe spaces.

I'm doing some boilerplate stuff here just to make sure we cover all the bases.

Map of the downtown mall.

These are the blue or the cafe spaces.

The line that you see weaving through there is the fire lane.

That's the clear lane that's required.

So if you have any questions about the map, we can go back to that.

This is my plan, the plan.

So March 1st is when the lease is for them all.

Each cafe space has a one-year lease automatic March 1st through.

Any changes that we would want to have in place

and so on and so forth.

Summary to work from in any changes and revisions that we would want to make to the guidelines.

And so just cover the bases again.

Cat face bases, the least out it is within the code section.

And part of that code provision is that they are subject to BAR review.

The city can also change things that go on.

So that's, you know, this, see, they're the 30 days in advance of

So that's why this doesn't necessarily apply to the guidelines, so to speak, but I'm using it to say I don't want to come up with guidelines that we say the week before, March 1st.

Again, the code that references the one year period.

One of the things that we'll talk about later is there's been a proliferation on the Mall of planters

and some more egregious than others, planners on the outside of the railings.

And we all know why folks are doing this, but the fact remains is they do not lease that space.

That is in fact a zoning violation.

That's not for you all to worry about.

It's wherever the planners that are inside that designated space and the barrier around it, that is under your purview.

Also not going to get into

You all don't determine the location, the size, placement of these.

However, if we have time, I think some recommendations on that policy would be appropriate for you all to offer counsel.

For example, and you saw some of the suggested guidelines I have, you know, simply privileging the fountain spaces.

Something to communicate to counsel that they, you know, maybe rethink it.

So, per city ordinance, a cafe space follows what the ABC regs say, you must have an enforceable space.

And it could be nothing more than two posts and a rope, but you can know that that's the area in which you're serving alcohol.

So, per our code, that can be marked by trees, fences, planters, barriers.

It doesn't have to be the metal railing.

Your job in this is, per code, you make recommendations in the design guidelines and they are approved by saying it, but the guidelines are councils and you're charged with implementing them.

So when people say the BAR won't let me, I push back on that.

Your, to establish the guidelines, one of the key reasons is to ensure that within historic districts,

New structures, dishes, landscaping, et cetera, will be in harmony with their setting and environments.

So on downtown mall, we're dealing with a space that is on the National Register.

It is within an ADC district.

So you're looking through that lens of what's appropriate for them all.

Go to the design guidelines.

This is it as far as

and guiding principles, if you will.

And when you take out the redundant words there, it's pretty short.

You know, everything needs to look the same, have the same color, be the same material, either black or silver-toned and no untreated wood.

When someone comes in and asks me, can I do XYZ in a cafe space, there's a lot in here that doesn't answer those questions.

So as far as what you all, my advice to you in reviewing the guidelines relative to this is historic space, we can look back to this is for example from Halpern's associates their summary when the design intent for them all and

You can read it, but it's basically that the mall is a linking of spaces and a sequence of interconnected rooms.

And there's a lot in the rest of the document about the pedestrian experience.

The pedestrian is what they're seeing and doing is important.

Halpern even went so far, Halpern associate, I don't know whose notes these are, but these are from the architect.

There are some clear notes on where there was some space shown to be used and you can read the comments.

Less clutter, more see-through would help maintain visual continuity.

as well.

statements that were in that nomination and accepted by the National Park Service.

Some of them are a little scathing, where they say the tables, chairs, post chain, pipe rail enclosures for dining areas.

They affect the open character, the original design.

They talk about that the spatial organization and LHA design devised to influence movement along them all remains, although the current use of public space for private dining area hinders its original effect.

So again, from the National Register listing, from the original design documents,

The lens through which to view the mall is historic place.

One of the things I think is most important as we go into this discussion is we're talking about visibility.

just wanted to illustrate to myself and to others and someone raised the comment to me in the office, my kid was running around, I lost them, you know, they ran around the other side of a cafe space or I turned the corner and I bumped into somebody.

So this sense of enclosure and whereas I, that's why my thought is that maybe there's a height issue if

We can move the planters to the inside, but the guidelines as currently written would allow if someone came in and planted a six-foot hedge or

installed a railing that was five feet tall with planks on it.

As long as they're painted black and metal or whatever, I have no basis to deny that.

And I think it would be helpful to make that clear.

And I think that you can create an intimate space within the cafes without creating an artificial hedge around it, which is what I see happening.

So quickly, the railings.

These are the guidelines for the railings.

It should be iron, black, well-maintained, and talks about the bollard thickness.

We have all kinds of designs on the railings.

One of the questions that has been raised, and Paul Josie, in fact, raised this, we have some panels that are solid.

We have some that are open.

that might be something the BAR wishes to make a recommendation on.

The railings are all various heights from 26 inches up to 36 inches.

My suggestion is that it be no higher than counter height.

Now, we would go out and anything that's out there now, we'd measure and write it down and that would stay, but anything that came in new, we would at least have a basis for saying this is what it should be.

The guidelines require the bollards.

This used to be when they had this, the bollards in the chain.

They need to be three inches in diameter.

You can see there's some that don't even have bollards.

So that should be visor, taken away.

And one of the things that we don't address, and this is where zoning has asked me, are these allowed?

And now on the left you see a chain

I would say it's allowed if it's black.

Then you see zip ties holding things together.

We see cable clamps, but on the far right, those are cable clamps, but they're painted black.

That for me probably achieves what they're looking for, although we should require that they be cut off and not be dangling out.

So that's one of the things we'll talk about.

Again, here we've got

Somebody just used a bunch of electrical tape.

So it may seem like a nothing, but if I cannot right now go out on the mall and say, yeah, you covered your thing in zip ties and duct tape, it shouldn't be that way.

Be helpful to know that.

There are some things we need to talk about and communicate to council.

We have spaces that I don't know if anybody's used in years.

I need to understand better what's going on with that.

There are places where we have two feet between joining cafe spaces.

It would seem a common billing would be ideal and solve a problem there.

The tables and chairs.

The guidelines say they should be metal, black, or silver-toned, and we address tablecloths and cushions.

We have approved some steel-framed composite furniture on them all, which I didn't know until I talked to Craig yesterday, so that precedent has been established.

But we have all kinds of colors.

Now, and I'm not showing to say, look how bad this is.

I'm saying if the BAR is okay with different colors, then let's adjust the guidelines accordingly.

Otherwise, we would have to go out and say to every one of them that they're in violation.

The other thing is, we saved the same design.

Now on the left, until the other day, I didn't know if we would allow that, we do.

But on the right, that's Beeshoe.

Apparently they've been there for a long time.

But that obviously doesn't follow the guidelines.

and

The guidelines say same material, same design.

You can see these are each a separate cafe space, but three different chairs on the left, two in the middle, and two on the right, and there's another place, there's four different kinds of chairs.

I think it's difficult to say to somebody, your furniture should all match, because it's not

You go to buy another metal chair, you're not going to find the same thing.

But I think it would be helpful if we could define similarity.

For example, you can see on the far left, the chair in the back has a spoke back and the chair in the front has railing back.

But they're both curved, both somewhat similar.

Maybe that's similar enough.

We say that the tables need to be the same design materials.

The photograph on the right is one place.

There's all kinds of stuff going on there.

Is that okay or not?

Because our guidelines say it.

And what's happened since COVID, a lot happened.

And I had zoning coming saying, what about this?

What about this?

What about this?

To the point where we could walk up and down the mall and site just about every cafe space.

The prudent route is to

and

then the rules are in place.

Jeff, how do you want to handle this?

I'm going to quickly as I can, yes, because I just want to make sure you guys know what we're dealing with.

Cabinet's encounters, they're not addressed in the guidelines.

We've got different kinds out there.

We've got things that are

We don't really address these.

If that's acceptable or not, we can talk about it.

Serving counters and cabinets are the height, I think.

My suggestion is we allow them.

Maybe the height is something that we could address.

It's been raised that having something that's not movable, or the one on the right, seemingly anchored to them all, or would not be easily... I know, it's probably rooted itself.

So, countertops, nothing in the guidelines about countertops.

We have stone, we have some alumnus for mica.

I think in the middle there's glass on the right.

Then planters, this is the big one.

We talk about they need to be compatible terms, sky scale, color, and they should either be terracotta or concrete.

We've got all kinds of stuff out there.

We've got planters hanging on railings.

We've got trellises.

We've got busted planters with grass growing in it.

This is some of what I was saying, things on the outside.

Granted, we could tell them it has to be inside, but we still should have a discussion about

is an assortment OK or not.

Then we've got trellises.

This is where I get into the height issue.

Someone could theoretically build a planter, surround the whole thing, and have a trellis and have a hedge around the cafe spaces.

We're seeing planters on the outside of railings and suspended railings.

The one in the middle is actually built into it, not a problem.

where we don't allow wood on them all, but we've had a proliferation of barrels and the cattle troughs.

They're silver tones, but should they be allowed?

Plants.

We don't say anything about types of plants.

We don't necessarily have to.

I would suggest we at least say that they be alive and that they be a certain height.

Umbrellas.

We're supposed to only allow one color.

We've got lots of different colors.

I know.

Well, per space, like whatever.

We're seeing new types of umbrellas that I don't know what else might come along.

So we should have, you know, be aware of what types we're seeing.

Now we've got umbrellas anchored onto the railing, not allowed because the umbrella can't go over top, but I think with these new cantilever

Umbrella, as you get those big weights underneath.

I've been asked about shade gloss, so we can have that discussion.

Trash containers are in the guidelines.

There's not a problem.

Lighting, the guidelines are silent on lighting.

We have a policy about catenary lights that I had circulated, and we'll recommend that we adopt that, and that should take care of a lot of that.

But we've got decorative lighting on railing, underneath countertops, we've got

Well, on the left, it's not allowed anymore, but so how do you all feel about lights on the railings?

There's nothing in the guidelines about decorations, but we're seeing artificial plants, flags, pennants, and of course, going back to wood again, got a lot of wood on them all.

We can change the guidelines, we can say no, we can say finish it, but we're getting it in places.

We have the faux wood on that composite tables, we have stained wood, we have the barrels, there's wood on those sandwich board signs.

and so on.

Per our fire department, they can't be within five feet of combustible things which include umbrellas and trees and things.

The problem is with

storage of them.

You can't take the gas inside.

So that's where you'll hear the vendors say, well, I have to leave the outside because they can't move the propane tank.

City manager decided last year that no space heaters within 10 feet of the trees.

So that you all know that that has been addressed.

So we have, we should talk about what is acceptable.

The the

Encouragement I got was that the BAR should say these aren't appropriate on them all.

One of the things is the storage of them.

One big issue we know about is the trees.

We are also facing, there are different kinds of heating, propane products out there suspended.

There are these tiki torch things.

There's very simple things and very elaborate things.

I don't know if someone said to me, I want to have my propene.

and a fire table, what I say.

So not trying to be alarmist, but it would be helpful to know where we are.

There are some miscellaneous items that we'll talk about.

These aren't important at this point.

Color, we really hung up on the guidelines say black or silver tune.

Here you see I've got a green service cabinet and a purple sign and then there's a brown trellis behind it.

Are we wed to only one color?

I was asked about, well, what if someone wants to put up a sculpture or something?

Now, the frog, my understanding, had been inside a cafe space, but it's migrated out.

The one on the right is not in a cafe space, but I felt it symbolized what something might ask me for.

We've been asked about, there's a lot of things that need to be screened and taken care of on the mall.

This is probably something that we can address with a

You know, something simple in the guidelines, but we have compost bins, we have some people doing gardening, the recycle bins, signs, signs are not part of the cafe space.

If they are on railings, they're regulated by the sign regs.

But I wanted to ask you all, aside from the unpainted wood, these are per the guidelines, but we're seeing these.

does the BAR, think that we should allow the plastic commercial type sandwich boards.

They said that miscellaneous signage will take care of that.

My goal is to have some guidelines ready, take it to council or take it to you guys in October.

And another thing I want to work on is for each cafe space, we'll have some sort of application form where they show me, you know, what they're doing, what's where.

And that way, if the middle of the year,

Mickey Mouse sculpture shows up I can say well no it wasn't on your I didn't approve that but it at least gives us something to work from at the beginning everybody's working from the same rule book so that's one of my goals and then said we've got some policy discussions we can get into but we're not gonna get into that tonight so

Kate and I thought it was important that I go through those images.

I know it's a lot, but now I would like to open it up with the spreadsheet that I put out

two sides I tried to put yellow where I suggested something the last two columns are really sort of the questions that have come up the certain situations come up but I thought it would be helpful to start with at least establishing some some some guidelines and that's where I drafted at the top and

It kind of would say, you know, cover the things that we don't know what to, you know, I don't have something specific, but for example, and I think one of the first ones is that we prioritize the pedestrian experience.

And so that would tell me if someone said I want to put up a five foot railing, I would say, well, that's not prioritizing pedestrian experience.

I then have the grounds to say that view should not be obscured.

So

With that, I hand it off to you guys to work through this.

I'd like to, you know, by the end of the night, have some notes all over this and take it from there.

And just to be clear to everybody out there, this is not, we're taking no action tonight.

I'm not asking you to vote on anything.

We would do something formally, hopefully in October, November at the latest.

When that occurred, I would also

contact every restaurant and let them know that this was being discussed and then certainly it goes to council where there would also be a public process involved in that.

So any questions for me?

I've got a quick one.

Is any other agency involved in any of these approvals?

Well, when you all, when the BAR, so for

Cafe Spaces, I am allowed an administrator review on your behalf.

So that approval, that COA, is enforceable by zoning.

So zoning official and I work hand in hand.

If somebody is doing something that's not what we've approved under the design guidelines, that's a zoning violation.

Planters outside of the cafe space, that's not our purview, but Zoni would have that.

There are, the fire department has requirements about, well, obviously things catching on fire, things like that, but we're in terms, this is in terms of the aesthetics of the cafe spaces, and that is synchroly yours to come up with the guidelines.

I might offer a couple things here, just partly to make a bridge between the work that was done with the downtown mall committee over the past year, which I sat on on your behalf.

And this did come up in the course of the multiple meetings that were happening over on a monthly basis.

and that group included city officials, it included business owners, people who work day in, day out on the mall itself in addition to a broad range of people and I'll go back and bring the notes from that meeting that focused on cafe spaces

But my general recollection and sense was that there was probably a similar reaction to all of the things that you are thinking now too that we've gotten to a place where there's considerable clutter and not great direction

and that the mall has continued to be, in small bits, further privatized by the cafe spaces.

I think everybody recognized the incredible balance.

We need a vibrant

Business Community and lively cafe spaces bring a lot of energy to the mall that's absolutely imperative.

On the other hand, there are a lot of these little decisions end up creating quite a mess.

And there was a general support, I think I could say, for the BAR to provide some better clarity and improve the visual clutter that is really the dominant kind of like condition at the moment

I'll just add one thing from my own personal point of view, but also from my reading of how the mall has developed.

It's essential that we recognize that this is public space, like the mall belongs not to any of these vendors, but to the citizens of Charlottesville.

We've made it possible to loan some of that space in order to enjoy the benefits of eating and dining and meeting and communing together.

But I think that, for me, a lot of the basis between behind simplifying a design palette, opening up visual lines, creating a non-branded, if you will, sense of community,

Another general comment, not as profound as the rest, but I know that we don't have any

We're not revising the city code here, but I would note and Jeff noted when he did his overview that there are those

for lack of a better word, grandfathered outdoor spaces that exceed 800 square feet.

800 square feet is a lot.

I mean, and I'm not saying that the ones that are grandfathered should be done away with, or I don't know what the optimum, more fair amount of space on the mall would be for these restaurants, but some of them are quite large, and some that are grandfathered in that are noted, I'm not even sure they are currently 800.

Possible to be, you know, I don't want to get into the weeds on that, but I would, I think our, I would, I would, as part of our recommendation to council be to reassess the number one, the grandfathered ones and see if they really should be entitled to whatever that excess amount is.

I mean, I know I won't mention it, but one of them is quite large, but it's probably the oldest grandfathered as we were talking in our pre-meeting, you know, cafe space on the mall.

Can I address that just real quick?

The Wolf-Josie Plan addresses this very issue in specific fashion and recommends a new layout of rental spaces.

And although that's not kind of the direct intention of the meeting this evening, I'd encourage us to all take a look at that and see if we could support that.

and maybe that would be an easy way, something that council wouldn't have to refashion or revisit stuff but we just had heard in the pre-meeting that council took no action on that report which is unfortunate so maybe we can move that forward.

I will say within City Hall there is an understanding and acceptance that some re-evaluation of the size and location of the space is necessary.

This is not elimination, but there's a recognition, for example, where there's fountains that we've encroached on them and created a problem.

Maybe some adjustments can be made.

So that's where in the

suggested principles, for example, one of them was the fountain should be accessible with clear space on all sides, not located within cafe spaces or encroached by cafe railings.

It's a broad, that's less of a design review, but I think it would be helpful to have it in the guidelines because then that, you know, be something that's communicated to council, but it would be also

with, as I mentioned, I suspect when

We say to the cafes, you guys have, you know, big potter plants outside of your space.

You can't do that.

They're going to say to counsel.

Well, if we move them inside, then we lose tables and chairs.

So I think that would be why it's saying you all would be appropriate to offer some comment on that if you had a feeling or a sense of where it should go.

But I think that it

I also wanted to just express that I'd like for our draft to be circulated to, for lack of better words, stakeholders.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I know that's hard to, you know, maybe you have a list of all the businesses with cafe spaces, but Friends of Charlottesville, downtown.

There's no DBAC anymore.

There's no Business Owners Association that I know of other than Friends of Charlottesville, downtown, but certainly there would be a great group to circulate and they could get it to other people, but

I think it's also important to note that what I liked about your plan was providing enough buffer between when a decision is made and giving 60 days, 90 days to store owners, restaurantiers, giving them time to react.

Well, absolutely nothing should, you know, nobody should think that we're going to go out there and say, you guys got to go buy new railings and new furniture and new everything.

There's certainly some things that will be exactly the same as they are.

But as I get questions about artificial flowers wrapped on railings, the guidelines don't say anything.

You all may think they're fine.

Let's let me know.

And that's where I'd like to get to.

So it's not taking something away from people.

I mean, Jeff, I think you've done a really nice job putting this together for us.

Thank you.

Yeah, definitely.

Let's start going through it.

Let's go a lot by item by item.

Yeah.

All right, so I'll

The first little section here, and I don't know, I know there's some members of the public.

This is just like a general discussion.

Do you want, do you want to share this with them?

Who?

Sorry, so they want to help you so they can follow.

We have a draft.

I think you probably settled it out.

It's been updated a couple times.

Maybe, I don't know if this is necessarily the night for public comment, but at least this way y'all can follow along a little bit better.

It really came just to be aware of the process because we appreciate it.

We're from Preservation Piedmont.

Yes, ma'am.

When trying to follow the process, it's been hard to know what you were doing when, so we just wanted to come and engage with you and be collaborative.

Like Greg, I was on the countdown committee and it was substantial interest in all of this, so I can tell you all of you, you have three documents at your disposal, one being the National Register nomination, the Wolf-Josey study, which is excellent,

and there's a really, if you kind of do it between the lines it's really about more than just trees.

And the third being that the downtown report and I think if you're looking for people to bounce things off kind of informally you'll have a work paper.

Several members of the downtown group said you would mind being again informally that we're all community downtown.

Awesome.

Thank you for coming out.

Yeah, so I mean, they're leasing the space.

So yeah, the restaurant owners.

What's on the table?

A handful of them might have to buy new chairs.

There might be, you know, but there's, yeah, I think there's the faux wood.

It may not pass muster.

Certainly where there's busted and broken pots.

I think that if we tell people you cannot have trellises in your planters or trough feeding tanks, I think that's... And what about the grandfathered people, the ones who have more than the... There's no... That's a bit of a misnomer.

They're grandfathered in the terms that

in the sense that council hasn't addressed it.

By the code that applies to cafe spaces, city council has the right to re-evaluate, re-designate.

So that's a, there's nothing set in stone.

Council could collectively vote to modify it as long as they followed the provisions in there, which, you know,

There is a current grandfather in this language, which is a different code.

We're going to end this meeting no later than 8 o'clock tonight, and we got a lot to work through, so let's try and get all the way through the spreadsheet.

First section is – That really encourages discussion.

That's the plan.

Shut up.

Suggestion.

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Individual cafe spaces should be uniform relative to elements and materials.

And I think just based on our walk that was really helpful, I'd encourage everybody to do the same walk because I don't know how many times I've walked the mall but I certainly

saw new things with the lens of what we're looking at today.

One thing I think that came up that we all kind of agreed on, I think, most of us, all three or whatever of us, two and a half, was that, you know, there's definitely a line between plastic materials when we're talking about

High quality, durable materials.

So we're good on the first line.

I would just recommend, I mean, it's the second part of the sentence that I disagree with and is not really providing much guidance.

And personally, I think it would, to be honest, I'd be

in favor of the city owning the barriers.

I mean, these are the big guys.

That's right.

These are vague.

We're going to get Variety.

We'll get Variety.

Don't worry about it.

Instead of uniform, I heard compatibility.

Yeah.

Within its own elements or something like that.

Compatible with its own elements and materials.

Or with it.

All right.

Use of the cafe spaces must respect the design intent of the mall that was basically said in the first line.

Prioritized pedestrian experience over dining experience, for example, maintains sight lines for pedestrians on the mall by minimizing visual obstructions within a cafe space.

Although I like prioritizing pedestrian experience, I mean, I wouldn't say overdining, but that the mall is a pedestrian area.

I think we can take out overdining experience.

Paradise Pedestrian Experience, maintaining sight lines on the mall and take out four pedestrians in a second from there.

The fountain should be accessible with clear space on all sides, not located within cafe spaces or encroached on by cafe railings.

It's with fountains.

I feel like this is a city thing.

This is something we could spend the whole hour talking about.

I think from what I've heard, we've all would love for these fountains to be more accessible.

Keep the first line.

I think there are

Yeah, I mean, I think that's maybe our guideline.

I thought at one point the whole thing was within the space and it seems like it got moved.

So maybe we just like the founds should be accessible with clear space to the public.

I feel, if you don't mind me saying, I mean, the second half is second part, sentence unnecessary, but I do feel that if you feel strongly about it, and you don't have to do it now, this is really helping us with the guidelines, but at some point, I think if you believe the fountain should be released from the cafe spaces, you can say that to council.

We're going to talk about this again next month too, so maybe we can all take a look, walk up and down and see where they are.

I mean, one thing we noticed when we walked the other evening was there was at least one fountain where the height of the railing that's been installed around it by city was taller than the fountain itself and it felt like as egregious as the railing was, it was more complimentary to the railing that was, you know,

up above the top of the fountain.

I say fountain should be accessible to clear space on all sides.

Period.

I think I like that.

Got it.

The next two, I'm not sure.

Everything that's in yellow is a little worse.

I guess I was asking whether that's what's done currently, even if it's not the law or within our guidelines.

I would say it's okay to pull that one for a policy recommendation to council.

The second one about

Cafe Space is not permanent.

All of them should be portable, easily movable.

That is somewhat, I think we need some variation of that because, for example, big troughs filled with dirt, we can't move them.

And there are things at certain restaurants that are, they're not moving.

They're in place.

And we could address it

I'm

Policy picking favorite that is that restaurants do come and go and cafe, you know, tenants come and go and

Somebody, if I decided I wanted a giant replica of the thinker in the middle of my cafe space, and it's tons, and I go out of business, you know, that thing is the thinker staying there for a long time.

Or the frog.

Yeah, it certainly could be linked to, we know, with the tree management plan and things are going to have to occur on them all.

I thought we'd say that because what's off season?

I mean, I've dined on the mall in February when we had a warm day and somebody dragged... Yeah, there's probably some language.

I mean, I'm just questioning, what is season?

Susan, there's no definition, and none of us would have agreed on it, anyway.

I think maybe more broadly said is that, you know, when cafe spaces are not

actively being used to discourage or encourage the removal of furniture.

That's a broad term.

It doesn't say get stuff out of here, or when not in use for a continued period, continuous period.

But you're right.

We have spaces that are not leased, and they're still railings.

So I think it would be, and it's not telling anybody they can or can't do anything.

Yeah, I think the tricky part there is the law that we want.

The tricky part there is then okay well it's 3 a.m.

Let me tinker with that one.

We've seen a couple different things.

When we walked around, we saw there's some, you know, where they had everything stacked up and chained up in the corner and that, you know, oh, it's nice and clear, but it actually didn't look able, you know, I think, yeah, we could work on the language there, like, portable and easy to moveable by two able-bodied people, like, you know.

All right.

Now let's get into kind of the elements and specifics.

So first and foremost are the fences railings.

You said the existing ones range from 30 something to 40.

Yeah, and most of them were 35, 36.

The railings were?

No, we wouldn't.

This would be for any new.

So if someone comes in and says, like with Paramount where they did the really neat ornamental, that was a year or two ago.

Isn't that called non-conforming?

This isn't an ordinance.

So I know you've measured some of them, but I wonder if can we ask you to do that between now and the October meeting?

And then we'll, like you've looked at all of them.

Did Kate say yes?

Thirty inches seems a little low to me, but and I'd rather have a 36 inch open rail than a 30 inch solid panel rail.

and then what?

Top of the rail.

I didn't measure the bollards, we just measured the rail.

42.

That's pretty tall.

That's noticeably high.

And I think the point here is to say when someone comes in with a new railing that we have a height.

If someone wants to remove the one they have, they can, but they don't have to.

But if they come in with a new railing, around the carousel out here.

But above we're seeing that happy spaces are not permanent and that all elements furniture railing planners should be portable and easily removable.

But as of March 1st, if we purposefully are making, and I'll use it again, more than 50% say non-conforming

That's tough.

Yeah, I'm not looking to be draconian here.

It really is to say when someone comes and says, I'm making a new railing, you know, we know what's out there, or they say I'm getting the railing from Rapture and using it.

Yeah, we know what that one is.

That's fine.

That's kind of where I was going.

And if there's one that's 38, then it can happen.

Well, no, there's some that are in 40, and I really don't want to go that high, but I'm not saying they have to remove it.

We'll say 36 tonight, I think, between now and October.

And also note that we want to say if that's the highest element, like if there's a chain that's lower but the ballards are higher or whatever that is, that that would be done.

Do we make any qualification about?

So that's a good thing.

That's cheaper.

So I don't know.

But I just don't see the countertops that there are three different, at least three that have countertops and kind of solid panel there.

Wait till we get to countertops.

Well, I think we encourage, you know, design.

I certainly always have it.

There was one rally that was at Splendors.

It was really cool, but I think when they moved, they took it with them.

But I mean, certainly we can entertain alternatives, but I think we could state that the preference is for open, you know, but

Yeah, that's not a cafe space.

That was treated separately.

But it isn't exactly.

You're right.

And they built a wooden seats that are higher than the rails.

Are we wed?

That metal is supposed to brought iron metal or iron is supposed to be the only materials there?

Similar to the discussion on the earlier point, I would remove the design variation encouraged.

That scares me.

It's going to happen anyway.

If we need to encourage it, we don't necessarily have to discourage it.

Discouraging solid panels.

I would not allow solid panels if I were a king.

I don't know.

I guess this falls into fencing.

But another idea that came up, which I'm in favor of, is creating some rules for fencing.

So we noticed a lot of fence that ran right next to our touched trees.

There were fences that were kind of maybe like too close to a tree or could have been moved a little bit to conform more with the sort of decorative pattern

of The Paving.

So I think that, and this is probably not something we want to get hung up on right now, but I think that there are certain general sort of rules we can make, like you have to be so far off a tree, you have to be, you know, within a certain

Again that could be the blue

Space on the map is set.

And so to move that or change that would take counsel.

Again, I'm wondering if Breck, you seem to infer that Wolf-Josey had sort of already done that.

Let's not reinvent the wheel.

So for the railings just quickly, fences, chains, bollards, we used to allow chains.

I say my suggestions leave everything there, metal, black.

The only thing was to change the height and that there's no need to have a minimum diameter for the bollards.

I think we should say they're not wider than three, right?

Yeah.

I don't think we have a max.

I mean, we say don't have a solid panel.

Petruvian, I'm fine, I'm fine.

But I do think eliminating at least the eliminate the diameter minimum.

Yeah.

And just one final hopefully note on the solid panels.

I do think

It was actually really nice to see the helping, or I don't know who made that quote, but to actually see that and link it back to the original design intent.

So when we talk about elements of the cafe must respect the design intent.

What are we talking about?

Yeah, like the handwritten note about like too much clutter under the tree.

Does there have to be a bench under every tree?

All right, move to tables and chairs.

Currently, Rodin iron or silver-tone metal, I think, is what is allowed.

and, well, black and silver-toned metal.

We kind of, we're trying to steer away from plastic or the faux wood.

I think that's up for discussion.

to the guidelines.

I know because Cammie became one of the first cafe spaces.

I looked at Jack Brown's.

They were going to use picnic tables.

And she said, well, as long as they're painted, I don't know if they actually did them or not, but so you can have wood if it's painted.

I know, but they can we just screwed that one up?

Well, we did.

And then but I think that forward when I when I we the composite material we know has been allowed.

So I'm fine with that.

It's the forward that

I just, I don't know, like, I know there's higher qualities, but at the end of the day, they tend to look kind of tired, you know, after a couple of years.

There are several examples in there of frames that were metal, but they have a wood or full wood infill panel.

Because those come in a range of different qualities.

Yeah, that's true.

We're just saying no plastic or actual material.

I think I'm in the minority here, but I would like to see highly regulated architectural elements like the fences and the bollards and really lay off of the kind of decorative elements, let a restaurant pick its own furniture.

The Beezoo chairs are not objectionable.

And when you say kind of let the furniture be as it is, you're still maintaining a consistency among from dining space to dining space.

Because the thing I found kind of a lot of visual noise and a lot of just visual pollution was like that other, go back to that other slide, just the different chairs, all the different materials together.

Down here.

I would almost take that and say we don't need to prove the color, but it should be cloth.

Yep.

Yes, they don't have to, but if they choose to, it should be real cloth.

So I'll concur with Roger and if our colleague Ron were here.

He's a libertarian.

And I think that I think if you're listening, Ron, call in right now.

I mean, these are it's public space, but

If we're regulating tablecloths, how in the heck are staff going to regulate that when other things in the mall aren't currently regulated?

I would rather that, I mean, I agree, architectural elements, the big things, get the big cabinets out, lower height, have some visibility of sight line when, you know, either wheelchair pedestrians or adults are walking down the mall that you have a clear line, there aren't, you know, and I'll get rid of all the stuff that

is illegally outside of the cafe spaces, but over-regulating what goes on in these spaces does not help us.

Restaurants have had a hard time.

They're still having a hard time if anybody hasn't noticed.

Restaurants are still closing.

Restaurants are an asset to the downtown mall.

They do bring people here besides special events that the building has and other venues have, but it was one of the original things that

brought people to the mall, the hardware store, sales, and millers.

C&O is off the mall, but I mean those were those were draws to the downtown mall when not much was happening in the downtown historic district.

So I would auger to give the owners a little bit more freedom and not overreach aesthetically.

I mean, you know, you can

That's what I meant.

Yeah.

But I would extend types of chairs.

Frankly, right there, every time I go, since they drag that heavy rod iron chair, I go straight to it and sit there.

I love those new rod iron chairs.

They are not anything like what Petit Pois uses anywhere else, but they're my favorite piece of furniture now.

So I would suggest right now that the guidelines for tablecloths and cushions are that they be clothed.

Is cloth polyester?

I mean, you know, natural fibers are we far down the rabbit hole regulation?

We're not regulating anybody.

I mean, this is currently what's there.

Anybody ask me about tablecloths on the mall?

Tablecloths and removable seat cushions are permitted.

I mean, I'm willing to not fall my sword for the tablecloth.

The classic tablecloth for the red and white checker.

So I'm going to say take them down.

I'm not saying allow whatever you want.

I agree with the proposal here.

And I agree a composite or other things could come before us.

including Fogwood or whatever, completely agree with that suggestion.

Hey, I'm from Baltimore and we covered the table with, you know, the old newspaper.

Right.

But I think if I can, I agree with you on the tablecloth, tables and chairs, colors.

You sort of, you went, jumped over chains and bollards to tablecloths.

So, runner, metal, composite comes to the BAR.

That's a good way of putting it.

Other materials.

They have no problem with white.

And I think that's where that's how we can manage it, right?

Is that it allows for a greater variety of stuff, but we can still maintain a higher level of quality.

Right now cafe spaces are some of the things that are noted as I'm looking for where we have white

Some of the different colors of chairs with green.

I'm in favor of keeping the black or silver tone for tables and chairs.

The admin approval room.

Like the photo, I would say no, that's not for the guidelines.

And, you know, so there are some things that won't

You know, be allowed or maybe they need to go get a can of spray paint for those chairs.

OK.

That's right.

OK.

Got you.

We've got our standard.

If you want to try something else, come ask us.

Never heard of that.

All right.

Sizes of the table.

I'm not going to regulate that.

Well, it didn't.

That was passed.

Passes passed.

I mean, I don't mean that in a smiley way.

You've got serving counters, nowhere else do you have like...

It's essentially a high top, but it's like a bar.

Either we just, like are we saying they're okay?

Like do we like them, do we not?

Well, I guess the question was large tables, and I think there is a separate discussion that we had about that type of high counter.

Just to be very candid, what we've got are some extended, very long tables, made of stone.

They are

some what permanent, if you will.

And I think that it's that, I'm not saying the cafe spaces should be like a mash unit that can bust down and be gone in an hour, but I think we are seeing semi-permanent installations

on the Mall that, you know, we can allow, if we said a table could be this size or that size, then you get a lot of them.

But when you, you know, build a 20 foot long table with a marble countertop.

Where is that 20 feet long?

No.

It's one of the countertops, I guess.

Sal's or at... There's one in front of the old bank there.

Like in the middle of the mall.

In Citizen Burger, so all three of them, like they're all next to each other.

Can we just say, and it would be vague, but it would be, you know, countertops and bar tops should be approved by the media.

Yeah, they've got a big countertop as well.

If you guys want to say discourage.

No, no, I don't mean it that way.

I'm sorry.

No, I know some people might want to discourage them.

Yeah, I don't want to, I mean, I think they're there because they provide some benefit to the restaurateur and I wish I knew more about exactly why.

To me, when they're on the perimeter is when they're more of an issue.

If they were internal, maybe they'll be less of an issue or of high tops I can imagine being on the inside of a barrier and not being so much of an issue.

I also think it's potentially a loophole around your railing, right?

Seating should not create

and an opaque fence condition.

What if the counters were on?

I kind of want to sit down and watch people walk by.

I mean, it's sort of like pulling up your rocking chair.

Yeah.

I'm not thinking that this is an aesthetic problem.

So these spaces are leased for $5 a square foot.

It does not generate a tremendous amount of revenue for the city.

They're not owned.

And I mean, look, I live downtown.

You all know that for a long time.

I come downtown, go out downtown.

But I do think that there is a, we hear so often of what they do in Europe and here in New York City where there are parks that people can move their chairs around.

We've created these places.

They're no longer semi-temporary.

They've become permanent year-round.

And I think that idea of a cafe space where you go and pull a chair up and move a table around, but then there's places like it's almost as if they own it.

I mean, if I were being snarky to the council, I'd say Mazbo just goes sell them that real estate and let them do whatever.

But I think it's that, you know, that idea of that closing off, that walling off.

We've got a lot of successful cafes on the mall with minimalist railings, with tables and chairs that can be moved.

if we feel like that's important, then we should say so.

But I don't want to capitulate to, oh, gosh, we'll never be able to change anything.

I mean, again, council will get to debate all these.

But I think that the height of the rails and the height of the counters sort of sets that tone.

So if your railing is only this high, and your tables are only this high,

and

This is stuff I get asked all the time.

I think what the goal is to, sounds like a lot of people have the goal of not, of trying to keep these transparent.

So why don't we just say that seating and tables should not create a visual barrier and we'll just deal with it as it comes.

Which everything is pretty clear that you can't, that discourages you from putting a bar up against the edge of a patio culture.

But it does leave some openness to figure things out.

Compromise that we all agree with.

The first question was, do we want to not have big tables?

That's why I was asking if you could add a line to this spreadsheet that specifically addresses

Hytops, countertops, bar tops, whatever you recall that.

I would say the top of a table is somewhere where you get served to.

I would make a distinction between a continuous bar top or continuous countertop.

This is Rod.

With Patrick's left, we're all going to have to watch our video, and I'm going to be going.

What did he say?

So in terms of just cafe tables, I don't think we have any, nobody in the BAR has any objections to the size of table.

I think we would like before the October meeting if y'all could add a line in the spreadsheet to address continuous countertops we'll just call it that for now and that at least for the interim we'll have our recommendation be that they don't visually obstruct the pedestrian's views

which comes back up to one of our overriding goals, right?

Minimize visual obstructions.

All right.

Storage shelves, cabinets, metal, black, I'd say, or silver tone if silver tone is the color of your cafe.

So there is a, under the vendors section, this section in our packet, there's racks and bookcases.

And it says only one vending rack shall be allowed per vendor.

There are actually no longer than four feet, no more than six feet high.

No rack shall be allowed unless it's associated with a standard table.

All racks must be within the space allotted for the vendor stand.

Racks shall be black or silver tone.

But they're leaving at night.

You see the guys with the tables out that they sell.

I've never seen one this thick.

I think, I don't know, personally I'm focused on the cafes.

I like some of the openness of something like this one on the left.

You can essentially see through it.

The one that's just a big black box that has doors that's on one of these slides is a little more grievous.

Yeah, it's like that all the time.

These are pretty permanent.

Right.

But then you can have a big, giant black box that you can't see through.

There's a lot of times on the mall, there's a strikingly few of these places that are open for lunch.

I guess it's almost iconic by now.

We have inventory at the hours that these places are open to the days they are open.

And it's an amazing amount of time that they are not being used.

But again, that's another part of the policy decision.

But these are not

I think I've got, you know, I come back with something about addressing continuous counters and the visual.

I think something about the storage shelving cabinets about open shelves above the railing and no outdoor storage.

Why don't we focus on the planters and planer heights?

Do we want to also think about a work session in between now and the October meeting to keep hammering through this in a couple weeks or something?

So freestanding planters currently the guidelines say they should be terracotta or concrete.

The revision is just suggested to say no plastic.

Shred Colors Designs Be Reviewed

is just starting to get to where some of Roger's points were well taken in terms of letting the instructors have some creativity.

But again, it's like we want to avoid cheapness.

And I think that it's, to me, we've got really good examples of eclectic planter groupings that I think look fine.

So to me, it's a function of size.

Again, that

That's a function of the ordinance so that you all don't have to establish that.

They have them hanging on the railing according to zoning that is outside of the space unless it's hung on the inside of the railing.

That's up to the restaurateur if they want to use their space for plants.

Right.

So that would be, you know, the, I would say that it's, you know, their quality material, that they're complimentary and, you know, a height of not higher than the railing.

I don't know, Breck, what's a what's a too big a pot to move?

36 inches?

And then diameter or size, general size.

That helps, that helps regulate the size of the plant.

The size of the plant, but also it helps us get rid of the feed drops.

And so the size, especially height of the plants, so even if these plants are inside the railing, if you've got an eight foot tall, like... Or if you're creating a hedge, basically, a potted hedge.

Correct.

That's what we'd like to avoid.

Those need to go.

Do you want to say 36 inches, 40 inches for plants?

They really contribute.

And they get really tall.

They can.

Well, it's not their brick.

It's not their space.

I mean, they're allowed to have people sit out there and eat, but they don't own it.

That belongs to the city.

Which part of what I said are you arguing?

Are you concerned about the palm trees being that tall?

Because I agree.

I think that puts me in I mean we had a earlier this evening you know a misunderstanding about the height of the new and existing fence puts me in the spot that I don't disagree I think there are

It's like we don't want a full length and that's what we're seeing right now on the mall.

I think this is actually a really great pairing because I want to bring up a distinction here and maybe it's too much nuance but

The one on the right I actually have no problem with because it is actually calling attention to the business's entrance.

Like, in my mind though, the mall should still be about the storefronts.

Like, that's where you enter the business, that's where the business owns the property, that's where their signage should be located.

But the spaces on the interior, away from the building facades, that's really the space of the mall and where we have the possibilities long, continuous views.

Yeah, that's not a cafe space, but it showed an assortment of plant reading.

So I understand what you're saying is I just don't want to have to be making a determination on whether that's a full hedge, partial hedge that's somewhat obstructed or semi-obstructed.

I think if you, would we all agree that some height of plants

at least not.

We don't want a hedge.

It would be I mean, people know what a hedge is.

It's it's where you really can't see through.

And the palms, for example, would not be that they might exceed a height limit that we would set.

But but I think a hedge does describe something that we're trying to not have on the wall.

So I think that is a good kind of guideline word.

Hedges,

A solid visual barrier.

Because you could have countries all stacked right next to each other and they're creating that same thing, but perhaps one in the corner is not horrible.

I think most everything that's out there is taller than five feet.

I think that's what we do.

I think another thing you see out there is some of the planting in the

The native planters, the big bollards, the big original helpers.

Well, that's part of the design of the mall.

Yeah, but it's a civic element.

Oh, so if government does it, it's okay, but if the private sector does it, it's fine.

Well, the city did it.

But not, I don't, how come he didn't design what's in those, I mean those planters?

No, he designed those planters and the trees that were created.

No, but they don't, they don't enclose a space and I think to me that's the fundamental difference.

But believe me, Kate and I were having a lot of conversation about this because they were like, because some of them were almost like eight feet tall or something.

I think this is where that idea of, and Breckholt probably needs some language of that,

the materiality of the plants, the texture of the plants, the types of plants that, you know, it's not, I mean, yeah, you have some tall grasses or palms versus, you know, a privet.

But I hear you, but, and I don't hear support for a

I keep going back to one of the overall riding goal of

respecting the design intent of the mall and minimizing visual obstructions.

It says within a cafe space, but really it's the intent there is to visualize, I'm sorry, to minimize the visual obstructions through the cafe space, right?

Like you almost want to be able to look past it and beyond it, things like that.

I feel like those are really coming up as the driving forces behind everything.

Although I want to comment.

I'm going to express a minority opinion and I know Jeff is going to cringe.

I personally fake plants don't bother me.

I mean, I don't like I don't like them.

And the ones that Jeff pointed out in the mall to me, I, you know, but I have seen in outdoor spaces, especially in the Southwest, beautiful silk flowers that you couldn't tell were real or, you know,

and especially on trellises and decorative areas where you couldn't tell whether they were alive or not.

They were so well done.

And I'm not saying that the ones that are currently on the Mall, there's I think only one that we're talking about.

But I kind of think what's the harm in it?

So the goal is, the goal is to really like government regulation, don't you?

No, no, no.

Let's regulate plastic flowers.

We're saying real live plants bring value to the community.

And live is an important word because we saw a lot of pictures of dead plants out there too.

Those should get removed.

Craig Fabio.

I mean, Cheri's right.

I can see that.

I mean, I don't personally like it.

I hate fake flowers.

Let me just start by saying that they've never been in my home.

They'll never be in my garden.

You know, like if somebody I don't think anybody people know not to give them to me.

I am completely about that.

We go over time.

It's your fault in a public space.

It was on here as a discussion point and I wanted to cover it.

I knew I would get some blowback.

That's okay.

So have we all agreed that somebody needs to get BAR approval if they want plastic plants in the mall?

I think the issue is that plants, for the large part, are not being used to beautify the space.

They're being used to fortify a perimeter or to create a visual barrier.

And I bet 75% of the plants on the Mall are doing that.

So allowing plastic plants off the bat allows somebody to create an instant barrier.