Board of Architectural Review Meeting   4/16/2024

All right, we are going to call the meeting to order.

Welcome to this regularly monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architecture Review.

Staff will introduce each item followed by the applicant's presentation, which should not exceed 10 minutes.

The chair will then ask for questions from the public, followed by questions from the BAR.

After questions are closed, the chair will ask for comments from the public.

For each application, members of the public are each allowed three minutes to ask questions and three minutes to offer comments.

Speakers shall identify themselves and provide their address.

Comments should be limited to the BAR's purview, that is, regarding only the exterior aspects of a project.

Following the BAR's discussion and prior to taking action, the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond.

We had our pre-meeting discussion, and now we move to our regular meeting.

The first item on the agenda are matters from the public, not on the agenda.

If anyone joining us virtually would like to speak at this time, click the raise hand icon in Zoom, or if you're joining us via telephone, press star nine.

All right.

Our next item is the consent agenda.

Second.

Thank you all very much.

I know we want to quickly get down on it.

Mr. Timmerman's got something he has to get to.

The first item before you tonight, it's a COA request for 101 East Jefferson Street.

This is the first United Methodist Church you recall a year and a half ago or so.

The discussion about the solar panels and the removing of the slate installation of an asphalt roof and then allowing the solar panels to be installed on top of that.

A couple of weeks ago, speaking with the architect, they proposed the idea of using a standing scene metal roof in lieu of the asphalt, which makes a lot of sense because now the panels can clip onto the standing scene and not be

and the others.

because Council had approved the prior COA, it left me a bit of limbo.

So the instruction I got was to take it to you all and get the vote on it as a regular COA.

So this is not to

review again the solar panels.

This won't change that at all.

This is simply to use the standing seam metal on the sections where the panels will be installed in lieu of the asphalt roof.

We had some discussion in the pre-meeting about this.

Do we have anyone from the public that wants to speak on this item?

All right.

I'm Bill Owens.

I'm the architect representing the church.

I don't really have too much to add beyond what Jeff said.

After the COA was issued, we changed the roofers.

I brought Jack Maslow from Lynch on board.

He made us aware of this new system, different system for mounting the roofers.

Solar panels that clamped to the standing seam of the standing seam metal roof, which made a lot more sense than the flashing system that required a penetration at each mounting location.

The clamps required none.

Pretty much thought it was a no-brainer in the sense that the concept was whatever the roofing is, it's not going to be seen.

It's supposed to be under the solar panels anyway.

And the integrity of the roof was sort of an issue when we started this whole process to begin with.

We thought it was sort of a no-brainer to

to swap the two out.

And we had already committed to salvaging the shingles and replacing them should the solar panels go away sometime in the future anyway.

So we thought it was pretty much a lot of logical sense to do that.

Do we have any questions from the board?

All right.

and I.

Furthermore, it is understood that the COA will serve to modify the prior COA, which City Council issued, and maintain the four conditions of approval with the less condition modified as follows.

Mr. Schwarz.

Yes.

Aye.

Ms.

Lewis.

Mr. Bestinger.

And I vote aye as well.

Thank you all.

Thank you all.

Thank you for your patience on that build.

I got a little bit of a

and what do you call it?

Didn't know how to solve this one, so this was the way I was instructed to, but thank you very much.

Thank you.

Good luck.

Thank you all.

All right.

And Mr. Timmerman, thank you very much.

You put on your Batman suit and get to your next mission.

Next on the agenda is a

preliminary discussion about 218 West Market Street.

You all had reviewed this several times relative to a demolition request and a special use permit request.

The demolition COE is still in place, still valid, but everything you had talked to prior to the other building, the step back, that's

a non-issue now.

This is a new design that's coming for you.

Well, actually not even the design yet, sort of the massing scale and sort of a general discussion.

So I know it's only four of you, but I think we can still get something fruitful out of this and allow their project to continue moving forward.

So there's not a lot.

I know Neil did send me a

a modified site view, but it seems there's a lot of stuff about the zoning.

I think about the percentage of the frontage.

It's not necessarily something you all would be evaluating, but I know Neil will refer to it.

So I think there's some adjustments, and I'll let him tell you what he changed on there.

I just made copies and brought it.

I don't have any questions other than preliminary discussion.

No action will be taken.

The goal here is to review the information that the applicant has, certainly to answer any questions that they have, and then for you all to the opportunity to direct the applicant on what would be necessary for them to bring forward a successful application.

So with that, I'll hand it off.

Jeff, your team, take it from here.

I just want to make the introduction and reintroduce myself to BAR, Jeff Levine, 600 West Main Street.

Been before you on several sites and particularly this site before and we're taking a little pivot here, not a little pivot, we're changing our use from residential where worked well with you to go through an SUP process on that but instead we're going to switch over to hotel use which we're excited about, bring visitors from

down to downtown mall and expose more people to the mall.

So I'm going to just want to make an introduction to my hotel partner, Al Patel is here.

He can answer any more particular questions about hotel operations as he and I are collaborating together to do this.

And I have Cassidy and Neal, Neal's on the phone to go through the presentation and walk you through what our general ideas are.

And as Jeff pointed out,

We don't have necessarily any specifics on design per se, but we'd like to get some initial feedback because we'd like to continue on our design and our goal is to be before you, I'm going to say probably the June meeting with something a little more tight and whether looking for approval or just getting a better understanding, but that's kind of our time frame.

I actually, Cassidy is at the meeting and she's the director for design.

All right, thank you, Neil.

If we can flip one page.

So as I'm sure you're all aware, there's some unique aspects of this site that kind of provide a lot of opportunity, a lot of challenge for us.

So we are working with a site that has two street frontages at different heights.

both across each street frontage and from front to back.

And we're also working with zero lot lines on the side.

So we're trying to meet all of those accommodations in our response.

So in our first sheet, what you're looking at is the old Preston Ave frontage there.

The market street frontage is actually a number of feet higher.

So we'll be about a half a story, a little more than a half a story above this.

Starting out on the old Preston Ave side, you're coming right off that pedestrian mall and so we really want to have a gentle accommodation onto our site so all the retail is pushed up against that mall so it can kind of provide a continuation of that onto the site and then directly adjacent to that is access to the hotel through that staircase and that's a larger, more

Pleasant Experience staircase rather than a utilitarian staircase for people to travel from the hotel so they can go directly out onto that mall and enjoy that.

And then over on the right side of there you see more of the functional aspects of the building with the loading and garbage and the valet parking.

We've pushed that off the street frontage just a little bit to try to shield it so it has a slight set back there and then we've kind of compressed it as much as possible with a single lane entrance exit valet so that we don't have that taking as much of that frontage up and we kind of minimize that so we can give the maximum amount to more of those pedestrian friendly uses and keep

all of the utilitarian uses as far from that mall as possible.

And as mentioned, that is a valet parking, so we're trying to maximize what we can provide on site for parking, both here and you'll see it up above as well.

So if you want to flip to the next slide, that is the Market Street

and Michael Koch.

a drop-off lane there so people can drop off and then the valet can valet their cars from there as well.

Again, we try to maximize kind of that active use with conferencing space, with lobby space and the entrance to the hotel and keep some outdoor amenity space up there as well in that front corner.

most of the rest of the inside is just hotel function is what you're seeing and from there you can actually see where from that bar it goes down to the mall area if you flip to the next street or next slide excuse me you see where the valet comes up and we keep

that parking concealed on Market Street.

And you really will not read that.

We will create a nice aesthetic on the exterior so that that's not going to read as a parking level on either frontage.

But because it's on the second floor at Market Street, it's a floor higher at Old Prez.

On Market Street, we wanted to keep it stepped back and keep that active zone.

activated with guest rooms on that level and then once you move up above that level it moves into more of a tower element and we've tried to you'll see where it we do have setbacks on both the front and back as far as we can push it without encroaching on

circulation of travel and that kind of a thing.

And we also do want to maintain a level of distance between the two towers.

I guess it's one U shaped tower, but we want to keep a distance between the front of the U and the back of the U so that people aren't waving at each other out of their guest rooms.

And then we also do pushback on that side setback as well.

And that floor plan is going to be the same all

all the way up to the top floor plan where you'll see if you flip third floor, the fourth and fifth floor are extremely similar.

There is an outdoor amenity space on the third floor in the middle and then up on the top floor you have your patio and your rooftop bar which are going to provide views in another active space that kind of serves the community there.

So I know that's a sky high perspective of this.

If you move into the section on the next page, there you go, you can get a better sense of the different elevations that we're working on with the retail on Old Preston Avenue and then the Market Street being was eight feet above that.

for your hotel lobby and then parking in guest rooms up above.

And on the last sheet, we do have some very preliminary blocking and massing plant or perspectives here so you can just get a sense of the different elements of the building.

We are still working out materials and details and all of that thing, that type of thing, but we just wanted to kind of show the

and the pedestal element that will be there, where we can show more of a sensitivity in bringing it down to a pedestrian scale, especially on Old Preston Avenue where you're coming straight off that mall and still respect the fact that we are getting into an area of higher buildings with the code building being right there, so we're very comparable in height with that.

and responding to that with more of the tower element.

So I know again that was a very fast zip through.

I'm sure there's lots of questions and clarifications so please feel free to shoot anything you have.

I have a question on outdoor amenity space.

I see on the site plan there's a number of 2,573 required and I see the development code that you've included which is helpful.

Thank you.

It's asked for 10% of I guess that's the

Sight footprint would be my guess.

And I see a couple of places carved out in the plan, one on Old Preston and then one on the Market Street side.

We haven't gotten into the details of how those will be used, especially coming off of the mall.

I can see that as, you know, a pedestrian support space with, you know, potentially tables and chairs.

Maybe it's served off of whatever retails there as a support space there.

As we move forward, I think we'll have a lot more detail when it comes to that.

that stuff but right now we're just kind of reserving it so we know that we can respond to those.

Yeah.

The code, the definition of public space doesn't mean

that has to be available to the public at large.

It's just 10% of the footprint has to be outdoor space if you actually read it.

And if it is truly for public, you actually get a two to one ratio.

So if you provide 100 square feet of true public space, it counts as 200 square feet.

So we are mindful of that.

What we're showing now does not include the two to one, although it's likely that some of this would be public space.

Got it.

On Market Street, you've got your little pull-off for the guest parking.

Are you bumping into the, there's currently a parking lane that's right there on market.

Am I seeing that the sidewalk, you've got like a bulb out that's filling that parking lane and then you're

Right, right.

So we had initially looked at adding a pull-off lane that was on our site, but with the setbacks and the maximum setback, we were exceeding that and so we couldn't do that.

Yes, yeah.

So all of that would then go into valet

What was changed on this that you gave us today from the original submission?

Choose the name, I think, right?

There was this proprietary branding on it that we just wanted to pull off for publication.

In the lower right block, it talked about

Frontage Require and Frontage Net and Disadjustment and it went up to like 98.

I'm trying to visualize on the site plan in the lower right corner, we've given you the requirement and what we're provided.

Like I think it says zero spots are required and we're providing 100 something.

20, yes.

In fact, there are, in the staff report, I list some bullet points on the first page in the discussion.

These are some of the elements that you all had from the prior review.

And they did still seem germane.

A couple thoughts on those when we get into comments.

The current parking lot between the Artful Odger and the Whiskey Jar building, is that part of the site?

and any thoughts on how that gets used?

They're building over it.

We're using the entire footprint of the site.

There's a building where Artful Lodger is and there's also a parking lot.

Okay, I guess this one's kind of

Yeah, so I know you and I had spoken on the phone earlier and I had mentioned the setback and it sounds like you did talk to James, so that's great.

I guess the part that I'm wondering about though is the streetscape requirements and I believe you have to meet those because your property is more than 100 feet long.

So and I pulled out a couple sections and

So my understanding of the code, then what I think I've pulled out from the code is that if you can't meet the screedscape requirements because there's not enough room, your setback actually gets moved back.

so that you then can put in the street trees that are required.

So it looks like I see one street tree on the bottom left corner on Market Street and then you've got one, it says Urban Tree and Silver Cell on Old Preston.

But currently on the site there's six Zelkova on Market Street and two pretty large Willow Oaks on Old Preston.

and it would be a really big shame to lose those or not have a replacement.

We pointed out I know that there are trees there

I don't know

of keeping that frontage as a certain percentage.

It's so complicated.

The long-winded thing is, yes, I'd love to see some trees on both of these streets since we are going to be losing quite a few.

But that's a site plan thing.

As far as the building is concerned, I think you're doing all the right things.

and it's a smaller building than we had approved for an SUP.

That's my big comment.

Well, the street trees were a topic of discussion previously and in fact part of what we had recommended to City Council regarding the approval of the SUP and I think that those

Those comments, for the most part, from our standpoint, are still pretty applicable and so I would recommend reviewing those and seeing how being able, in your future presentations, being able to speak to

how they do that.

Now I know that you're no longer suggesting providing the pedestrian access through but the other elements are I think very much still applicable.

My biggest comment or recommendation for you guys moving forward is just to acknowledge our role and what we need to review is very much related to

that compatibility with the existing context and in the documentation so far it's pretty non-existent and so I find it even a little bit hard to review the massing because the existing context other than the couple of little thumbnail 3Ds are not shown it would be helpful to see existing buildings in elevation

understand you're thinking about how the design actually accommodates and is compatible with that character defining feature.

So not just even the mass of the district, but really the character

Understandably, this is an awkward site.

It's an awkward shape.

It's got context, but on the other hand, that can provide a lot of design constraint or can lead to interesting architecture.

I feel like this is like trying to jam on an interesting architecture into an interesting site and I'm interested in understanding a little bit more about how this program is relating to its context and going to

Be a net positive for the city.

It is an important location.

Can I address that for one second?

We're very aware that what we really want to understand today is whether those floor layouts with those rooms

would work, Carl's comment, did the right thing, whatever it is, that's what we're looking for because from that we can then start decorating, if you will, but we have to understand that and we are working with a brand, so there are certain requirements you follow and certain layouts you follow, so we first just wanted to hear

this looks okay as a layout, now bring us all the stuff that I've been through with you before to understand that it is within context.

You know, one of the directions I was very particular about to the team was about that corner on the mall and making sure we really activated that and bring them all.

Right now I kind of feel like that's just like a dead cavern where retail and everything goes to die so I really want to bring life to that and so we'll bring you some images of that and we'll bring you the exterior and even though we lowered it won't be as prominent as

The 13 stories that are allowed in the zoning.

If we went that high, we do understand that this will be seen.

I don't think the lighthouse will be built on for us.

So we do understand that.

You'll, you'll get all that.

But I wanted to kind of hear.

Well, if I could just continue the one, I do think that that street frontage on the corner of Old Preston is one of the most interesting contributions.

I guess from a massing standpoint, one of the things that

One of the most interesting things the building does is provide that upper level courtyard that breaks down the mass but unfortunately that's like on the one side where it's not really visible from many areas and so it actually presents to the public its largest mass, it doesn't have much differentiation, it's quite flat across the northwest and south facades

I just wanted to comment.

Our purview has nothing to do with the interior programming, so we don't comment on the layout of your rooms or anything like that.

Our purview is from the public right away and what the exterior looks like, and the programming obviously has to follow.

our guidelines and you know what we would support but looking at your room arrangement on the third floor we will have no comments on that the rest of our our guidelines if you haven't read them before and I would encourage you to read them if you haven't the staff report cited several which are really helpful but there are I mean I'll just

The other comment I had personally was, I'm so glad that you say you'll activate the old Preston Avenue side because that's a particular interest to all of us and that's just really, you know, it kind of does based on two historic streets.

Yeah.

Can we move the newspaper?

I'm sorry, what?

Can we move the newspaper things and the trash at the end of the, I'll work with, I'm working with James.

Yeah, yeah.

But no, I do understand what, that you don't, we don't have a purview on the inside, but

But as you affect mass, you do affect interior, because if you were like, we want to see 30 foot steps, you know, I'd be like, oh, I just lost.

And I appreciate what you're saying as far as, you know, the view from market old present where those kinds meet and then look you back to the building.

And a lot of that.

Obviously this is, like I said, a very basic massing.

A lot of that can be broken up in materiality, in fenestrations, in all of those details.

And I want to make clear we are making a point specifically with that view.

where, you know, you're right, we do not have the large outdoor amenity space there.

We only have that 10 foot setback where those meet.

and then we do on the top floor, we will activate that kind of most prominent corner is where we're locating the bar on that outdoor seating.

So that will add another interest, another element of, you know, dynamic design that you will see as those get developed.

But as far as what Jeff was saying, as far as, you know, if you're looking at this and going, you know, we're going to have very serious issues with

and it looks like the short ends of the towers probably won't have windows, similar with on the side that's facing Ridge Street, Ridge McIntyre.

Yeah, and unfortunately that is because by cold we are not allowed to have windows within

A distance of the wall line.

So, of course, we do push back.

Some of it to try to get some windows.

Like I said, they have that ground elevation there.

That will have a lot of fenestration, but you're right with short elements.

By code, we cannot have windows that close to a wall line for fire safety.

So in the staff report, there were, which I'm sure you read, and I'll just read these because I'm sure you'll watch this video later and, you know, pick up on our comments.

But some of the conditions of the SDP granting in 2019 are still pertinent.

The buildings, I'll just read them.

The buildings massing will be broken up and provide

compatibility with character defining features of the historic district, provide adequate protection of adjacent historic structures, provide a plan to replace the street trees.

We've already talked about that.

improve the pedestrian character of Old Preston and Market.

I think Market has some, you know, it's challenged because it's kind of a highway coming up there, but you know, anything in your programming that can help that.

And then there won't be the pedestrian access.

And then there are a number of design elements in chapters two and three and four in our guidelines that you can

Revue as well, that not all of them may pertain, but some of them might.

And I had other comments, and I've lost track of where I was going to.

One thing I would say is, and I think you benefit from being right across from the omni.

If we're looking at the surrounding environment,

at least that helps my consideration.

It'll always be a larger building than at least this one, you know, which augurs for, anyway, it is what it is.

So, yeah, and the, oh, of course, yeah.

But that is our challenge.

Our challenge is

that's the

across from the mechanical stuff.

It's very hard for us to carry the retail that much further because we want to take the pedestrian from the mall down into the retail, but at some point you'll be across from that dark omni.

You know, those buildings that do have a much taller aesthetic that are far more vertical and then you have a very horizontal in the mall, the pedestrian mall kind of merges.

So you're going to have that pedestal aesthetic that really draws you on a pedestrian scale and then once you back up and you're looking at it, it's not just dwarfed.

It still has the tower element that kind of competes with those without taking that pedestrian scale away.

So that's where, even though we don't have huge setbacks,

I think the reality is going to really come into play and just having a break there, you know, which can be emphasized with more architectural detail and up at the top of that pedestal to stop your eye and your eye is reading.

Okay, as a pedestrian, this is a three-story building or two-story building depending on which side you're on.

And then as you back up, you go, okay, that building isn't just being buried by this one next to it.

And you'll see, I know it's hard to see in them, but that's what we would bring to you as we move forward.

But if there was anything specific in this shape that you were like, I don't see how that's going to work.

Personally, I don't have an issue with the massing.

I think if I could, my two thoughts, one from the prior S.U.P.

discussions, there was an awful lot said about that continuity through from Market Street to Old Preston, and you know, it's ironic why we're not looking at the inside, there's still, we're talking about that space going through it, and

How much you wanted to get into that?

And I think the other thing I was going to offer, and I know we don't have the full BAR here, but at least we can maybe touch on it a little bit.

We've been having a lot of discussions, particularly on the entrance corridor about material selections and materials that are appropriate or not.

We've had some

Yeah, it's not his.

It was the other really big project, the other end of town.

But if... I think we discussed that at 612, to be honest with you.

You're right.

So, you know, if there are

And again, not to resolve it tonight, but I feel like the material discussion kind of reached a little ahead with the the verb and also some of the stuff that was used on 2117 ID again, both entrance corridor projects, but these new materials that are coming out and and how do they

Replicate or Simulate.

But if you had any strong feelings about it, I thought it would be helpful to touch on that.

I think the big thing from our guidelines is durable and long-lasting materials, especially near the ground.

Jeff, you've played this game with us many times.

I will say, if you're looking for a little more specifics, I mean, some stuff that I really appreciate is that you have done the valet parking, so you've got, you've narrowed those entrances down as much as possible.

I appreciate the fact that your lower level valet parking is set back, so I'm reading that as being, it'll be recessed back from the livery stable building, is that correct?

on the lower level, yeah.

That pulls back away from the street, correct?

You mean the one next, the livery stable?

So the livery stable is going to stick out beyond the front of where that... Right.

Yeah.

So I appreciate the fact that it is recessed there, so you diminish it a little bit, so it's, again, it's... I'm sorry, just, the livery stable will go, that's part of that arch philodrosyte, that will go away.

The adjacent... Yes.

My mind is thinking it's part of the adjacent building.

It looks like it is, but yeah.

So the adjacent building, it's kind of pulled back from that, and it's, I mean, Old Preston has kind of been the Omni's alleyway, but I think when you guys are done with this, there is a chance for it to actually be a more contiguous street.

I mean, your neighbor building is a fairly nice frontage to it.

So yeah, two pieces that I do appreciate.

But again, just please get the streetscape in there.

It's extremely important to me.

Yeah, I know, right?

But it is this requirements are they're big requirements.

Market Street is a it's a downtown street.

So it requires a six foot clear walk zone and eight foot green scape zone.

and Old Preston is a local street, so it'd be a six foot clear walk zone and five foot green scape zone.

So back on the through access, I feel like a lot of these conversations regarding this site and the code building were well before my time on the BAR, but in my head it was a requirement and like reading that the CUP did require through access from Market Street to Old Preston.

I think for me it's that feels like a, that was a planning condition, or I mean it may have been a BAR condition, but it was a condition of an SUP was a planning mechanism.

And as a BAR application I feel like there's a little more by right ability for them to fill the site unless we have a

I don't know who it came from.

You made a recommendation on the special use permit and suggested some conditions.

Carl, that's an excellent point.

Thanks for pointing that out.

those would have been, I don't even remember how the S.U.P.

came out, I think they included some of that language, but no, that's no longer, these are things you express concerns for, but as far as

requiring something through the interior of the building.

We do accommodate.

We do have a walkway that does go from the front of market through to Old Preston Street.

Now there's a height difference, so it is a staircase, but it does go from front to back and that will be and that would be open and not secured all the time.

It's an interior walk.

The technical language of the S.U.P.

actually said during business hours.

It didn't require it to be open forever.

And the genesis, because I have the genesis, is we were building a residential building and we had retail in a small residential lobby.

It was less likely that there was going to be any pass-through.

Here we've addressed it by it being an open lobby, like the Omnius, Carlson, that you will be able to walk through it.

And that was a big thing of planning.

did not want where people are trained now that they go from market to Preston through there, they'll still be able to do it.

Yeah, I think hotel lobbies feel very public.

Yes.

That's something we've been challenged with.

It'll be more likely.

Especially with the retail that we want to accommodate on the back end, obviously.

Because half a story, it can't be below.

So we're kind of in a challenging situation to have full transparency where you can look through the window and go, oh, it's over there.

So from our point of view, I think that earlier offering I think was a helpful way of breaking up the block, which I realize and I understand why it's not compatible with the current program.

But I do think that it highlights to me that this building does create a very long street wall

in combination with the other buildings on the block.

And it ratchets up the need to be careful about this building feeling long and horizontal.

And so I would look at some of the provisions in our guidelines that speak about the vertical meter of buildings downtown and in other parts of the city.

The context, the historic context that you'll be fitting into.

One of the things I wanted that will be challenging or I'm just curious how it is that especially the where that I think maybe the most challenging is in the portion of the volume that is

Black in the model, given that a lot of that is either service spaces or parking.

Sure.

So the lower-level parking, we know that's pretty much concealed.

Once you get past the entrance, it's not very visible.

Once we flip to that upper-level parking though that you were mentioning, there's a couple things we've done to try to have that more service and asset rather than a architectural drawback.

Showing my code expert.

That's the active depth that's required on the primary street, so we

and that the code is designed to address that, so you can't even have the parking up, so you have that clear.

Right, and so architecturally, so we already are on the lower level, pushing that retail frontage back, so the parking level will actually serve as a pedestrian covering, and we'll have, you know,

You can kind of see it if you flip back and forth on the plans that there's like an overhang so we'll be able to

create kind of a covered, yeah, and you can see it in that section a little bit too, kind of a covered area for the first level by having that parking up there.

And then with the way that we do the fenestrations, you know, in the way that we do the columns, it can kind of further break down the linear look of that building with some vertical elements that drop back more into the traditional

Scale and that traditional spacing that's going to carry it through onto the rest of the mall that's really going to kind of keep the aesthetic that you've got going along the mall once you enter that space.

When you look at that building, you should not even really, other than the fact that the windows, rather than having glass

may have a decorative grating or something else.

When you look at that, it shouldn't be a long linear opening like a parking garage.

It's going to be punched window openings that follows the aesthetic of the adjacent buildings and follows the aesthetic going on the low hand.

So you shouldn't see a linear break visually when you're looking at that building when you hit the parking level.

I just have a comment that, you know, thanks for carefully kind of walking us through how the building, the different entries relate to the streetscape and the different plans, but I think just a more illustrative plan showing the building footprints and then as the floor plans go up, the adjacent floor, adjacent buildings, whether it's the omni across the street, just knowing where those are, they're just not legible.

in the drawings.

Yeah, or just more illustrative of the buildings and not just lot lines.

On that note though, I am curious about the shape of the building on its western side.

Is that just part of schematic design or is that

I'm wondering what's going to happen with that.

No, it's just on the second floor plan.

Yeah, so there's this weird kind of very slender triangular space that I think is going to end up being

The right hand sight line, or the left sight line, if I wanted to keep a rectilinear building that wasn't completely just following the sight line.

I guess just as you develop this, just make sure it doesn't become some... Become a creepy alley.

Yes.

Could we also, just because this is a preliminary discussion, could we encourage the applicant to contact the other members and they could review it?

I mean, we only have four out of eight here right now and you're welcome to contact the remaining members and get their feedback.

Two of them are practicing architects.

Another one is, you know, pretty much an architect with UVA.

and another one is, you know, actually probably the person who lives closest to this, of all of us, actually, Ron.

Yep, I just keep going back to some of the, you know, past several years of discussions and, you know, the word permeability and that

looking at this from basically Fellini's down to the corner.

This is a long block and what's the result going to be?

So being able to sort of see, you know, it's not a standard city block.

I think going back to the prior discussions was what that opening through the code building showed and presented.

So that's

I think maybe again a reminder, I don't get the vote, but it's that idea of what does this facade become, not just what is it with this building put into the current streetscape.

and Jeff heard the word permeability over and over again on West Main Street.

That idea of how does this continue through to the mall or should it and not through the building but is there the

understanding of a relationship from Market Street to Preston Avenue, or if that's even necessary here.

Jeff, you mentioned materiality earlier.

You know, I think this is a really prominent site and especially coming up Market Street, you're going to see that from a lot of different viewpoints.

And I think some of the buildings along West Main Street, hotels and apartment buildings that some of them sit higher and you see them from different viewpoints, some of the least

Okay, I would appreciate that feedback.

I may be in the minority, but I wasn't here for the, I was traveling at the last SDP meeting, I think.

I don't

the mall side, as we would call it, and from Market Street side.

I'm just thinking on Market Street itself.

The largest building is the Enterprise Center, and that block has no permeability.

A lot of the blocks on market have no permeability between the numbered streets.

The exception really on the mall would be

Lewis and Clark Building with that walkthrough, which I don't know the history of how that came about.

It predates the 33 years I've been in Charlottesville, so it must be a little bit older.

But I think it was a city requirement.

But it is quite unusual.

And it's been a challenge for some of the merchants in that space and that particular building.

And I specifically want to not say through the building, it's a private space.

Sting hotels, I know it's always creepy if people are coming and going anyway, but it's that looking at that length of the block and this is an integral part of that whole and just not

I'm talking about like the level of openness of the street to the lobby, which I think that is something we sure.

Yeah.

And I would echo Mr. Whitney's comments about, you know, that this this building from a couple of different views won't

It won't be that visible except from that intersection at Ridge McIntyre, Preston.

You'll really look up to it.

And I think that's, I think, the massing that we are most interested in, because most people, you'll just see it.

And you've got that change in Topo.

It's just you're looking up the skirt almost of what this building will be, really, when you're sitting down there at the intersection.

So I think that for me, that would be more important than

Maybe the street side, of course, on both of the streets, but more important than even the north or northwest facade, which would be against some existing but smaller buildings and not as visible as you come down the street if you're coming down the market that way.

So I think that's what my concentration would be as you're looking at materiality and differentiation and fenestration and

things that will break up those masses and make it look like an interesting building.

Why people go like, that looks really cool.

I want to be there.

Do you guys have any other questions for us?

Yeah, it's very helpful.

And to your point, I'm thinking that maybe we'll return

in May for another discussion and more board members will be here.

And we can also advance some of this stuff, like maybe show some streets, take some of your thoughts so we're getting more feedback.

It'll still be a discussion.

We'll get other members involved, hopefully.

Jeff's been all the Jeffs.

That's the one thing that's nice is we haven't had four Jeffs on a phone call with this one.

But Jeff's been through the process of when we were informed by legal, we couldn't do the incremental approvals.

But on the project from West Maine that Jeff was involved with, I think, or at least 612, certainly, that process worked.

And at some point in time this has to become a formal application.

We can't just have continuous informal discussions.

because the public notice requirements are different for an application versus a preliminary discussion, but I think that that's reasonable to have a second discussion with the full board and then the understanding at some point it has to become a formal application, but

We still have that process, that agreement by which we move through and sort of the furl at the end of discussions if necessary to continue.

Thank you.

I just want to thank all the board members and Jeff Werner in particular.

This discussion will be very useful.

We get some very interesting and very useful feedback.

So we'll move on for you.

We didn't get introduced to Neil.

I'm sorry.

I mean, I know Jeff knows, but I didn't see any, I didn't see that name on anything that was submitted.

And I'm not familiar with that gentleman.

Oh, I didn't put it there.

But yeah, I've worked with Neil on some other things.

We're good here.

All right, thank you all.

And then that's, I don't, we addressed the question that I had earlier regarding Grove Avenue.

So I'm good on that.

I just have a suggestion as they were talking about coming back.

With the summer months coming on, we might want to just ask everybody, okay, when are your, you know, assuming people don't have short-term plans, but with the vacations.

We weren't talking about you, June.

I won't be here for the June meeting, for example.

And I think it would be, instead of doing this on an ad hoc, you know, a week before, let's just ask everybody, I mean, a lot of our vacations are foreseeable.

I mean, you're right.

Yeah.

Could you could you do that?

Are you two?

No.

I don't know.

I don't know if August is a vacation like others, but in somebody's world they are.

It is.

Do you want to just talk about an update and where like a plan?

I will be coming.

James and I are talking about that earlier today and we want to just come forward to you with

his discussion, his suggestions, and with four of us here.

I haven't written West Main, and I don't get freed up until July 1st of the earliest to even look at it.

And I'm sorry, I know that other members have been really diligent about their rewrites.

Here, scholar athlete, and Ron,

So I feel bad, but I just don't.

I might be able to do it before then.

I'm not helping.

We started markups October of 23.

Now we started in 2017.

with comments, we just didn't do edits in a formal submission.

I mean, I want to encourage that.

I told James a couple of weeks ago, if I, you know, had a week to not have to respond to any email or anything, I could sit down and go through the whole guidelines and hear you.

Would that be nice?

Yeah, well, what would I face at the end of that week of not responding to anything?

So now I'm sorry, I'm not, I'm not

Can I move to adjourn?

I'll second that.

Hi, are we adjourned?