Board of Architectural Review Meeting   3/19/2024

END

It's a clock on the wall's right.

Tonight's Consent Agenda item is just the minutes from last month's BAR meeting.

Move to approve the Consent Agenda as submitted.

I don't see any matters from the public.

If you'd like to speak at this time, click the raise hand icon in the Zoom webinar or press star nine if you're joining us via telephone Okay, our first speaker is George Ragsdale

Yes.

Okay, we're not quite there yet.

He's here to talk about the first items.

Second.

Ron by hair.

Jeff, would you like to introduce this?

Chair.

So I don't think I need to recuse myself, but just want to disclose that to the public.

All right, let's start with any questions from the public.

George Rexdale still has his hand raised.

OK.

That's our first prohibition of, I suspect George wishes to express support for the project, so I think we're safe without assumption.

If you don't mind stepping up there.

You get to talk twice if you wish.

And hopefully we can do more and really make it good as it's facing Rugby Road and is a fairly public property.

Any questions from the BAR?

Is there a preference?

enough to make it more in proportion with the facade?

Is that what you call a little pitched?

But, but yeah, I personally mean towards the flat one.

Is that perfectly flat or was there a little pitch to it?

I think the question should be more, are you thinking of a membrane, rubber roof, or a standing seam, very low, slope metal roof?

So I think that could be a more economical solution.

Are you replacing the overall roof of the main house?

Sorry, one has said you can repair it.

One says you have two to five years.

and looking at asphalt shingle for replacing.

Looking at designer asphalt shingles to emulate slate, to varying degrees of success and three tabs that are like what's on it now.

It's an old asphalt roof.

Yeah.

It'd be something, I mean.

Like if she went to Standing Seam, she'd technically come to us.

It's not a fake slate asphalt, but it's a darker color, a little straighter cut, so no problem with that.

Any more questions?

I'm just curious, sometimes when you take some of that stuff off, you don't quite know what you're going to get behind.

Any comments from the VAR?

And it still fits the massing of the house.

But I think the issue is removing an element that we believe is not original, but we're not 100% certain what's added later.

To me, this seems like it's perfectly fitting within the guidelines.

Are you placing the roof on the side porch also to match?

That's the plan.

So in addition to photos, if somebody did later want to restore it to its former version, they would have that as well.

Any other comments, thoughts?

Starrsup at the top

I don't know if you have any, if the applicant has any opinion on that, or do you have a preference?

Okay.

Can you hear a motion?

Having considered the standards set forth in the city code, including city design guidelines for historic conservation districts, I moved to find the front porch alterations at 807 Rugby Road satisfy the BAR's criteria are compatible with this property and other properties in the Rugby Road Historic Conservation District and that the BAR approves the application as submitted.

Second.

Motion passes eight to zero.

If you all had any strong opinions about that one way or the other.

They are famous for having multicolored trim.

So I mean, are we talking about around the front door as well?

Sort of definitely around the door, but columns and fence and fascia, it's still sort of being worked out.

I feel like we don't have any guidelines for how to review colors in a conservation

you know, trim like that's trim, that's trim, you know, the columns are trim, and when you paint the window trim, the corresponding trim should follow.

Yeah, I don't think that is a limitation we should impose on folks.

Well, it has been asked.

Well, it

Well, that's up to you then.

I'll think, but you have to go hand in hand.

I was just saying, I don't think they do.

You've probably locked up the colors in Photoshop, I'm guessing.

We played with it, but... Because I had everything but the columns.

We're being able to communicate with Jeff, sending him an image, which I guess he's going to pull up in a moment

So I'm thinking about 611 Park Street.

Not a conservation district.

This is only like two or three, two years ago.

The trim is not.

It's on the

Thank you.

Our next application is a Certificate of Appropriateness for 712 Ridge Street.

Thank you for any, gotta get home and do mom, super mom stuff, right?

You're allowed to go.

You want an excuse to stay, you can stay.

Very airtight.

We do have an opening on the board of architecture actually.

You have to be a business owner in the historic district.

and as you can tell, we could use some female energy here.

So Mr. Zehmer, I hand it back to you.

Would the applicant like to make any sort of further presentation or

and I have all your images, anything you want to see it, I can roll to it, scroll to it.

I know there are other elements, but I suspect the windows may be a great issue to the board, so happy to answer your questions.

Alright, questions from the Board of Architectural Review.

Shane, the contractor's not on.

Sorry.

It's alright.

The driveway is it, there's not a garage, and you're not proposing a garage, so could you just explain a little bit more about the purpose of the driveway, and is it primarily for parking, and how far would it extend into the site?

The property is a little bit sloped, so I think, again, I haven't hired a contractor, but it would probably either be a slightly sloping driveway or a relatively flat driveway with the concrete wall coming around the side of the driveway.

Do the windows currently have storms on the outside?

In fact, I would say most of them and most are just the frame of the storm.

There's a whole bunch of pictures of the windows from the last application.

Yeah.

And some of the windows appear there as well.

Do you know what that means?

I'm sorry.

OK.

Yeah.

Where is it?

Sorry.

That's on the Pella replacement proposal.

I think we confirmed that.

Yeah, working with the contractor on that, that they understand that that is available.

That's what makes me wonder about the HGP.

Hinge glass panel.

Hinge glass panel.

Hinge glass panel.

Well, I think this product offers, uh, inside the, between the glass blinds, so maybe that's a way to... I would hope that would be standard.

Thanks for pointing out the link, Carl, to the previous application.

It does show the storm windows, which seem to be in awful shape.

is it advancing chimney?

I don't know what it once was for, but the heater boiler.

It's not a fireplace chimney.

My understanding from the home inspection is that it is compromised all the way down, so it's compromised from the bottom up.

Yeah, that's right.

It used to vent.

The thing he said it was absolutely like do it right away is this term needs to fall down.

The questions?

but has anyone sort of done a window by window assessment, I guess is really the word I'm looking for.

I don't know, a dozen pains that are broken in some way, you know, cracked broken like in some, yeah, in something like that, but I don't have a window in by window assessment, I'm sorry.

So it's not, it's, it's more mechanical failure than it is any fungi.

Yes.

And staff's recommendation on the front doors that it needs to be replaced.

Get my image here.

So the

But.

The thing hanging there is a lockbox.

There was a lot of catches on the frame, but maybe the locks have all been patched up.

Or when they go in, are you going to see basically what you see now minus your junky storms?

Is that fair to say?

And so it retains that existing profile, the existing

It's not a full replacement, but what you're saying is this particular one has a lesser profile than some of the ones we've seen in the past.

30 inches because you knew it would fit.

You just Yeah, you lose like you lose a 30 or window.

How would I handle this?

Knowing how important windows are and how much we want to preserve the original ones as much as possible because they do add a character to the house unlike any other element.

and something that could be done also is by finding things that go in the front.

Then I guess the next two are kind of on par with each other, but we'll go with the front retaining wall and the driveway.

and this may and I don't but I don't know enough about and now I know south of here outside of the district there is more it looks like there are more parking on the on the street but I don't think we have enough together with the kind of like crude information we just don't have enough information really assess whether that's accessible I was gonna actually ask what the applicant did submit on this because the only thing I saw in the driveway looked to have been prepared by staff

Is that right?

It's just a sketch that I offered in the conversation, and that's what they do.

It's not just a flat surface.

I think we've got a marked up photograph.

What are you doing to retain that?

I think Brex Point's well taken that there was no formal site plan submitted which would show us the driveway potential parking area which may be acceptable if it were in the rear and then details of the retaining wall that would need to be installed.

I understand, but there's precedence, shall we say.

I know.

And it's, yeah, it seemed pretty simple.

But I think that's just two of us.

Again, I think there's sort of, some of us may not be opposed, but may be more involved.

There's a dead tree that I hope he's already removed.

Scroll up a little, Jeff, please.

The dead tree.

Street view, it's pretty bad.

That's like bamboo right there above the... It's a large dead tree.

But I think the question would be if it's just unacceptable to do it, then that would be helpful for him to know before he hired a contractor to develop some drawings.

I don't think it's unacceptable, not for me, but I would like to get more information.

There was info on the windows.

So I've just used typically what we recommend for windows.

Just trying to scan it really quickly, apologies.

Didn't you agree?

Thoughts on the front door?

Obviously, it doesn't seem to stand out to you guys.

I agree.

And I find it really hard to believe that that beveled oval glass survived 100 years.

You know, interestingly, the inset... I think without seeing it in person, it'd be hard for me to make a problem with the other...

Whereas this does.

Maybe something just simpler for replacement front door would be advisable.

I like the character of the front door and think it looks like it with a little bit of patching and restoration looks like it is salvageable, but it looks like it's been there a while.

Yeah, right.

It's not that.

Oh, yeah.

So it's worth exploring.

A full light like that on a front door, you have to put a lock that has a key on the inside, which is actually an illegal lock, otherwise someone can just break through the glass and open the door.

That's why I don't think it's original, besides the style of it.

I don't think they have those laws back in there.

which is the only way to actually secure that door.

Just that much glass.

In an emergency, someone's in the house, and they don't have the double lock, and they don't have the key, then they can't.

So why would that be keyed on the inside?

Egress The House

This is an important element, and I would hate to see sort of this off the shelf parts and crafts inspired door in front of us.

That would also be, in my opinion, more secure

Is it the fact that it doesn't close right or you don't like the way it looks?

Give a priority list of the reasons why you want to get rid of it.

The wood is kind of splitting in different ways, and so I'm sure there are ways to restore it, but I just didn't see, immediately for me, an easy restoration solution.

But that said, this is one element, and I would say, if you all were to say, you know, what's the thing you leave on the table, I will happily try to figure out what to do with this door, if the other things are possible.

It is splitting and delaminating, so.

Did they have plywood in the 1920s?

Yeah, that's got to stay.

Just kidding.

We're not sure.

It's for planting strawberries.

To the windows.

I just wanted to just on the door.

Perhaps a while ago, I'm not sure, but I would allow a replacement door on behalf of the owner for all of reasons.

I agree.

picking and choosing baffles as we all are right now.

Each one is possible?

And so I don't know if Jeff, is there a way we can approve part of it?

The chimney is a yes.

The door, I'm okay with what has been proposed.

I think I'm with Roger on that.

I'd like to see if we're split.

We're split.

And what's a split?

It's not?

So I think that's one I'm okay with y'all trusting me on.

I know a city attorney's office.

Those are pretty clear instructions to me.

I mean, I'm just thinking of things that could give Jeff and the applicant some guidance.

I'm not against replacing the door.

I would say more period sensitive, too.

So it sounds like we have a majority if we add that language.

So the separate COAs again, very different when

These are elements that if in order to produce a coherent motion, I don't have any problem with breaking them up.

I think 22.

And I can understand it at a later date.

And I'll open it to the VAO.

I think we do need to take that into consideration.

So I would vote to approve

I think that's one of those places where we can make exceptions.

It'll be a huge improvement to remove those storms.

I think it makes good sense and that it won't detract from the character of the house and will definitely improve its livability.

So I support it too.

Is that something that could be replaced or restored in context?

Is it just?

Yeah.

So that's sure.

Do you intend the transom's the window over the door?

And right now, is it painted?

I thought it was painted, but...

All things vehicle, I think it would be nice to restore that so that it's a window.

If you apply a solid door, it would be a lot darker without the lights from the oven.

Where's the bottom rail?

It's the wagon wheel that we're seeing.

I don't know.

Think so?

I think it's just a... It's like a bird's eye view with, like, picture, because look at the lantern.

At least the glass replaced.

So if I could figure out a way to restore that, I would love to.

That's what I'm learning.

So that transit wasn't at risk.

My sense is that all those three would match.

If I recall, the owner at that time wasn't going to do anything up there.

Yeah, I don't see that in their replacement package.

And it wasn't anything it wasn't proposing.

But I think I suspect you're right that it wasn't.

Yes, they are.

Or 1-4 is the diagram.

I think I can speak to this.

I guess, is anyone opposed to if the applicant eventually replaces those three windows to make them all four light windows?

Somewhere in the city hall, you might actually want to figure it out.

I mean,

So that's not what they're now.

It's just someone grabbed a sash and stuck it up there.

This is hard to understand perhaps what's

So, how do we want to craft a motion?

Or can we leave those out?

We're good on the chimney.

We're a majority on the window replacement.

That's good unless somebody else is ready to move along here.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out.

On the window replacements, I'll defer to, go ahead, fill in the blank.

Now, if we can reverse a little bit, I don't think we were okay with the driveway.

I thought we were going to approve the, did we want the driveway to come back or did we want for just to approve it?

Well, I'd also just note that the door is not listed in this.

And the door isn't listed, so I added it.

Yeah.

You have to be limited to that.

The application doesn't specify a simulated divided light, but we all agree that it has to be a alarm.

Encouraging the applicant to review the doors in the neighborhood and surrounding properties and see if there's a door type that may be appropriate to the era of this house.

Okay, okay.

Okay, there you go.

And I think that covers it, right?

Although if it's really a further evaluation of the whole, then I would, you know, omit that and treat that separately.

Just trying to simplify.

Does Patrick do this?

I'm not sure I could repeat it right now.

We need to confirm that they will have the SDLs with the internal spacer bar.

In the low profile without new sash.

That doesn't, I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Just inserting the window into the sash as opposed to taking- Into the jam.

Okay, good.

But at the end of that I said as submitted.

I think I got it, but I just wanted to, does that, everyone else, or if you want to propose window replacements, um, conditioned on that they are simulated divided light window with an internal spacer bar, the

That's great.

And we just don't mention the driver.

Is that the rate if we just leave the driveway out of the motion and it doesn't get approved?

Well, I would just omit it and state that it's omitted.

We are omitting approval of the proposed driveway.

We just need a little bit more information.

But you can include any specific recommendations about the driveway such that they can be in the discussion.

OK.

If we're recommending a driver, are we recommending that it goes back far enough that the car would not be

If it's not driving anywhere, it's not driveway.

Yeah, that's all.

Mr. Schwartz.

Yes.

I am actually going to vote no.

All right.

The motion passes.

Like, if I come back with someone in a month and say, here's what I want to do.

We'll talk out of school.

And just another question about clarification is to get an answer.

and hopefully we would lean towards, you know, reviewing them and approving it.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So this should be relatively familiar to folks.

And Kevin, certainly here if you have any questions, but you have anything questions from me?

Would the applicant like to present?

So I'd be glad to take questions.

Alright, questions from the board?

I'm looking at

So, I mean, you can certainly, I'm comfortable you clarifying that those are future.

If we can just include that in the...

I would suggest you pirate the suggested condition from 712 Ridge Street about paving material.

We just really haven't done any design work on them yet, honestly.

That makes that even easier.

And comments from the board?

Neighbors, both before us.

Stick around for 747 after.

So yeah, thank you.

But it's also just a nice little jewel of a project back there.

feel like making a motion.

And that the bar approves the request.

Second.

The ayes have it.

All right, thanks very much.

Thank you.

Yes.

Who's seconded that?

It was Lewis.

Yes.

Oh, sorry.

And our next application is 747 Park Street.

I have this is that additional or is it the same as

Okay, cool.

Cool.

I wouldn't know you.

Which one would you

and Jeff, you just say beep and I'll, or whatever you need to say.

Is there a gadget over here?

I figure you had a gadget.

I'm happy to just pause and field questions.

I think my suggestion, getting a discussion about that, where you are, I think we refer the staff report to frame if any things need, I don't want to make sure we touch on all of them, but I think the elevations and drawings would be the best place to start.

Do we have questions from the BAR?

I just wondered if there's been more discussion about a little bit more specificity on what that material might be.

I think the illustrative photos that were in the PowerPoint, that's my attempt at illustrating where the version is trying to go.

So it just seemed, which mean very different things to this board and just wanted to see if we could narrow down the range of what those possibilities might be with a little more understanding of what you've talked about with your builder or designer.

Yeah, some of the example photos look much more board-like, whereas the left example looked much more monolithic, like full stucco.

So that's my understanding, a smooth surface on the concrete, whether it's concrete or it's a stucco, but it won't be formed, it won't have that brutalist look to it if that helps.

I think Stucco is your friend if you're trying to go monolithic and not see some of the breakdowns that you're seeing.

I think Breck is asking, I think you're saying which one is it?

This is one area that is not very specific, and there are good ways of creating that kind of surface, and then there's really cheap ways that are not durable that we probably would want to avoid.

We usually ask for applicants to bring us something that they that's their final decision at this point.

I think he clarified that that was effectively a mislabel.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

We're not trying to use cheap materials on the exterior of a very expensive addition paired with a very expensive restoration.

Is this kind of what you're shooting for?

The majority of the exterior of the addition is contemplated as effectively that sort of smooth stucco look.

It might be nice to do just sort of literally accents

Or what are you trying to achieve with the use of the reclaimed brick?

Does that answer your question?

That helps things.

Just wondering, is there a sort of functional reason for that?

So Jeff, do you want to maybe scroll down to the, I think we've got another angle?

Several different of the colored renderings, and then there are the gray.

There's sort of a bit of a neck on this side?

Just this right here, I was curious about.

Jeff, do you want to scroll up to the floor plans that should just be up a couple?

and John Brite.

And then again, you've got the stairs and the, and the elevator shaft with a, you know, what is it, basically a sort of a mud room there closest to the, to the garage.

My

That's it.

In the red line, the dashed red line, is that the existing?

And then separately, the one-story porch is, I don't know, probably another, I think it's maybe another 6,700 square feet.

Did you say that the glass railing around the balcony is that it's actually not occupiable, that there's no doors to it?

And you can actually maybe see, I don't know, if you want to scroll down to one of the renderings, you can kind of see, there you go, so you see the windows, but no full height door out onto that space.

Any other questions from the board?

The Seco, or the monolithic material?

That's what's contemplated.

will be windows and on the porch will be screen panels.

That's a screen porch.

That's a, that's a intended as a three season space.

And is there a way out?

So the second, the third panel in, actually the central panel, the middle panel, it lines up with the door, the door into the kitchen.

Comments from the board.

It's just figuring some of those things out.

So really, just think the world of what you've done to that in the time you've been away.

and so on and so forth.

and

And so, the ceiling height and the roofline in the addition accounts for that.

Jeff was expressing his limits

The concrete wall goes through and the historic house butts into it.

It's far simpler to just cut off the cornice like that than it would be to try and wrap it through some opening in the period of the wall.

You're adjusting, like, wrapping the concrete around the cornice.

That shown is the concrete wrapping around the cornice.

Personally, I think you should put it underneath the corners all the way across the back and lower the roof.

Or is there HVAC that's crossing from the old to the new?

It was partly the height that it was, you know, like for instance, even just the area where the new hits the old, just a simple recess almost kind of like a joint could create a separation there.

Right, we intentionally, I mean, that was some of the feedback last go around and we intentionally incorporated that.

I think we need

I like the way you describe them, but I also feel like there's a lot of different things that could fall into those descriptions, and I just don't know where it's going to end up.

It's got some character to it, would be nice, but I don't want to get hung up on it.

I actually think this whole thing as a painted brick volume would be fine.

I think so too.

Is it copper or is it a standing seam?

Totally okay.

There's an existing dormer to the left there?

So that's right, the original, so it's, yep.

What's that finished in?

Why am I thinking shingles?

It's got some kind of lap side.

It might be metal.

It's not asphalt shingle.

Yeah, I mean the intent with the new dormer was just to make it distinct and, you know, similar style to the addition so that it did not mimic, it did not mimic what was there.

That's Lapboard, isn't it?

Well, that's just the design thing.

I think it would clearly be sort of a modern sort of monitor.