Board of Architectural Review Meeting   1/17/2024

The flu that's going around right now is awful.

It's what?

It just started my throat Sunday, and it's just been like this.

It was like a sinus headache.

I had a little bit of a cough, but it's not as bad when I had COVID.

Year and a half ago, so thank God for that.

All right, I'm trying to find

and while I'm hoping this, I realized the project for 16, 4, 18 West Main may have been consent agenda.

I just at that point kind of said

It shouldn't take long.

And then I just, I'm sorry, haven't had the ability to get to do anything to prepare for the design guideline discussion.

So I'm just going to scratch that.

And I think if you all have any questions for me at the end of the meeting, maybe tackle some of those.

Welcome to this regular monthly meeting on Charlottesville Board of Architecture Review.

Staff will introduce each item, followed by the applicant's presentation, which should not exceed 10 minutes.

The chair will then ask for questions from the public, followed by questions from the BAR.

After questions are closed, the chair will ask for comments from the public.

Preach Application.

Members of the public are each allowed three minutes to ask questions in three minutes to offer comments.

The speaker shall identify themselves and provide their address.

Comments should be limited to the BAR's purview.

That is, regarding only the exterior aspects of a project.

Following the BAR's discussion prior to taking action, the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond.

All righty.

Before we go to the consent agenda,

We open the meeting for matters from the public, not on the agenda, or if anyone in the public would like to speak to anything on the consent agenda.

Currently the only item on the consent agenda are the meeting minutes from November 2023.

We don't have anyone from the public in the room.

No hands raised at this time.

All in favor?

Aye.

I vote aye.

I'm going to stay in because I wasn't here.

Very good.

Thank you, Carl.

and our first new item.

We had a preliminary discussion about it a month or two ago.

This is 416 and 418 West Main Street

Project is Canopies Decks and Paddios at Northern West Facades.

Chef, would you like to introduce it with us?

So we had a preliminary discussion, so save your voice.

Best I can.

So this is 416-418, West Main.

I've got an image up here on the screen from Alan.

Greg was out.

thrown piloting last week.

And I added these, there's a couple more.

But the ABCDE in the proposal corresponds with these.

I had E up on the side there next to D in the staff report.

It's a deck that will be constructed on the back part.

But so I have, if you want, said these images,

They're helpful in any way.

I can go to them if necessary, and I know Greg and Alan are on if they want to use them, they can.

This is a structure, actually several structures, date to the 1940s in the downtown ADC district.

And just to point out, I know they are on West Main, but the downtown ADC district continues another block and then becomes West Main.

So maybe against something we should probably address with the guidelines.

Obviously these were automobile branded buildings on West Main and they are contributing to the district.

The request that they're making is

across the front which would be the south facade of the building along West Main and then on the west side constructing some canopies across the front and on the side elevated deck with some canopies above.

You all reviewed this

and a lot of review.

It would be disgusted, I think, back in September, generally supportive of it.

So now it's coming back as a formal request.

There's some details associated with the design, the railing, the canopy.

Those reflect designs of other things already done on West Main.

For example,

I know the name of the restaurant has changed, but the gas station that has the canopy flaked out.

Yeah, and it, it, I decaled design to that and so I realized there aren't

detailed drawings of some of those things, but there are references to where they've been employed and other sites, so hopefully that will suffice, but I think Greg can address any questions you have about that.

With staff, no issues with that.

Yes, this is Greg.

I am here.

Go ahead.

I could do an initial introduction.

If you'd like to pick up where we left off, we had come with a, it's interesting that photo before you move on, the scaffolding we have up there for construction of the upper

addition, you know, has sort of a mock-up character to it, at least for the central canopy we're talking about across the sidewalk.

But we came with a canopy over Orzo, there you go, and with similar material as the, as you mentioned, or 20 West Main little star now, like how, and

A little bit of a canopy over Albemarle Baking Company and a side deck and canopy.

And some of the comments were go to steel.

We had wood for Orzo.

There was a feeling that the lighter weight of steel

added to the success of War 20 and also the character of the buildings in that area.

And then there was the suggestion also to just continue, explore, continue the canopy across the building facade.

and even maybe Wyden out at Armagh Baking Company to balance out the ores of.

So we explored that and did it, have something to see and look at.

And the side deck, for those who saw it, had a partial deck and then a canopy over the back part of the deck and it had some of those raised and had steps.

We leveled that out as suggested

and brought the canopy down to align with the lower part of the clear story that's going around at the upper addition.

Before we had stepped it up so the canopy over that deck would align with the roof line of the new addition.

And now we have it with leveling out the deck we have it all.

You probably see it from the photos better.

We have it aligned to make it work with a flat deck all the way across.

and what we've done also with that deck is add more of an opaque type of railing for the back side of it and open towards the front.

And then to carry that sentiment of maybe doing more than what we presented at the last meeting, we went ahead and did what we've been wanting the client has been wanting to do is add a do something where the old fish market area is back there.

There's a cooler

School are occupying that space and there's a desire in all of this to improve the exterior space to put a patio and then an upper deck that would serve the upper floor of that little area, that domed space there.

So those are all the different components, decks and component patio and canopies that we're looking at presenting.

So I don't know if you want to get through, you know, go through some of the images.

So, you know, as described, I'm trying to keep it brief.

You know, we're using the same type of language of the metal, the tube.

We're going to go for darker.

We're proposing a darker color, not black.

This has a nod to a softer color, perhaps.

You know, I know Orzo had wanted wood.

We do have wood as purlins in this design.

So there is a layer of wood in the purlin level that's above the raptors, just below the poly root, the white poly, that would be there at a regular rhythm.

of the three feet on center.

And I don't know if it's just worth getting into and asking questions.

But I believe we, you know, we kind of covered a lot that was suggested and, you know, has sort of a comprehensive layout.

Yeah, I mean some of the initial images are just context.

In case you couldn't get out if you had the flu or the snow or something.

Dude, that's an image you can see the side deck is flat now with the

the canopy roof lowered.

But to set back, we didn't want to bring it into the side of the building.

I think there's a desire not to have it fully open, but have some area that's covered for that upper area.

So that canopy on the side deck sets back coming from the corner of the existing building.

and so there's columns that hold for the front part of the poly roof and metal framing.

There's columns three over at Orzo coming out of the existing planters that are there, the brick planters with the wooden slats of previous BAR and you know, it's constructed with coming out off of those and then two columns of the Albemarle baking company and then for the

Stretch between those two, they're supported by cables or pipes, that is, or I'm trying to think of rods.

That was suggested by the structural engineer, kind of wins to the character of those type of canopies.

In the rear, all the way around to the fish

the old fish market building.

Those are all enclosed with a cement panel railing, similar to what we've done across the street.

I just put an image in there by damage boards.

It's pretty far down.

We're looking at using that for that back section and

Yeah, right there.

And if you go up the image on the lower left, and if you go back up, whoever's scrolling, you can see that fish market.

We're trying to, right there, we have in the back of that upper deck on the side.

We also have it all the way around in the fish market.

Just trying to be a little bit in closure, knowing the parking's there, a lot of activity.

So those are the two type of railings for those decks.

and, you know, we do enclose the patio down below in the back parking area.

That illustrates the same construction that's throughout these, which are slightly different actually from what we did

at 420, but, you know, there was also a sort of call for simplicity and this is, you know, kind of simple 101 architecture of post and beam and rafter and purlins for such a roof.

And there are two

tube construction, tube elements, 6 by 6, 4 by 10, I think, and 4 by 6.

All right.

That's it.

Okay, that concludes y'all's presentation.

We'll ask for any questions from the public.

Probably stained, stained and sealed.

Yes, so we walked through that with the engineer and the thought was that

at that wall, that outer wall, that yellow addition to that building.

Got it.

I have a few questions.

First, you had a wood decking.

Well, Alan, I don't know if you want to jump in.

I think E-Pay is what we're talking about.

You've had a lot of success with that.

You like it.

That are an alternative of that in that light.

The suggested framing for that is a steel superstructure and then wood framing in there.

So when you look up from underneath, you're going to see steel structure and then you'll see the wood.

And then the polycarbonate, you said that's the exact same as what you put in across the way and then in the adjacent.

Yes.

What is that product?

Is that a cow wall?

It's a manufacturer.

We started using it on other projects and just keep going.

Yeah, it is.

I keep changing their sort of little individual names.

They call their company Cover Your Pergola.

and my last question is about the pull in that's currently like what is it, three or four parking spaces?

Is that going to remain as parking or it almost looks like in the 3D that grass?

Yeah, so I don't know who's scrolling if they want to go to a page like maybe 12.

I think the intent is to keep the parking.

The intent is to keep all that functioning as it is.

And so the canopies are kind of

Okay, so I was looking at page 22 of our 87 that has kind of like the trees in the front and I don't know if we can scroll to that.

Page 22, Greg.

Let me go back.

Or maybe not.

Yeah, so I was just wondering, are all those trees in the same position?

Yeah, it's kind of interesting if you walk out there, there's

There's a lot of different paving surfaces, and there's a lot of, you know, the vehicles drive over several, especially when you go around back, several different surfaces.

We're going to clean it up quite a bit, but it's pretty much going to be left.

I don't know if there's a photograph.

Let me see if there's one.

There's a sidewalk material going from the sidewalk of the street.

It's a town on bacon.

Oh, there you go, yeah.

Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Talk about it.

I think the tree is in the parking in me.

Yeah, you can kind of see from that.

Yeah, the image shown, the drone shot, you know, the vehicle kind of just drives over that area.

There's a little bit of gray area there, I guess.

So your renderings have two different colors for the driveway to the back parking lot.

in some images it's shown as red and in other images it's gray or white with paving blocks.

You know, Alan, we haven't discussed this much.

You know, I know there's a lot of construction going on right through there now.

If there's

in the tent.

The later images, yeah, I can see I must have changed along the way and then go all the way back.

But there's a red stamped pavement that's further back.

You may have your

I think when we show in front of the bakery, I don't think that would remain asphalt in the very beginning of it.

And because it's not raised up there, you have to drive through there.

And I think he's talking about the draft to the rear parking lot.

Right.

That's concrete and that would remain, I think that should be red.

That area got pretty beat up because we decided it was appropriate time to underground the utilities.

I do have a couple questions.

Have you thought about lighting at all?

It looks like all the lighting in the building is up above the canopies.

And I think you're going to lose some lighting in the little site walls that are around Orzo's patio.

Good question.

I think there should be

I haven't installed it yet, but I did buy some.

It's a long tube lighting.

So think of it as strip lighting in a long tube.

So I think there should be something under the canopy, as well as something above the canopy.

But I'm not sure I fully spec that out.

I do have the stuff that I just bought, but we haven't installed in a project yet, but I want to see how it works.

But it would be some kind of LED strip lighting, you know, I think underneath the canopy.

or you could put lighting on the building on the face of the building.

There is lighting that is to be installed that is shown in the CAD drawings that was approved with the BAR that kind of came along with the addition and all those are sort of those goose type of

Lambs that face down, you know, see an image that has them.

And that's above the canopy, of course, and would shine, probably illuminate, you know, it still would, you know, shine through the nature of this type of trans, partially translucent.

But I agree that probably should be some more specific lighting below.

I think the

The Port of Patio area already has some lighting ingrained into the floor.

The concrete may be the side walls.

But I think anytime you put up a canopy, you tend to want to have some lighting with it.

You know, you always think of that as string lights.

I apologize.

Some of these are just CYA questions just to make sure.

So the way you frame this on the adjacent restaurant, there's a fascia that went around the canopy.

It looks like in this case you're going to have the beams and the purlins are just going to kind of end.

Is that the intention?

And if so, I assume all those are going to be, if they're hollow tubes, do you think you're going to have a cap at the end of each of them?

Is that correct?

That's correct.

Yeah, they're capped.

We talked a little bit.

The last time we came in September, we also brought some thoughts on fenestration for the Mickey courtyard.

And we're talking about that pavilion there across the street.

And that has tube construction.

and, you know, the Raptors, a lot of those elements are kept as well.

Um, yeah, the center.

Yeah.

Um, have you thought at all about, um, how does the drainage work for this?

They have to have a gutter system.

What do you find?

I didn't just add on the end.

On the 420, we have this system.

I don't know if anybody's looked close or if my image shows it, but we have these little fins.

I think I sort of see that.

I should have looked closer on the way over.

It's kind of hard to see in the image.

But where I think it could matter, so to speak, or be more important is that Albemarle

So I apologize.

Did you say that you do think you'd have a gutter there or you think you would just have like a dispersal thing like you have at next door?

A diffuser sort of thing.

I apologize, I'm not speaking.

You're asking a question.

Yeah, we haven't.

These are good questions.

Get into the points that I have.

I think certainly along the narrow facade, and I think if you're sitting in, for example, in front of Orzo,

and you do have rain.

They're meant to protect you from rain.

Yeah, the Orzo, you know, they also live away from the building.

So the outside edge of Orzo, you know, goes past the sidewalk and drops.

And also that's a pretty big overhang from the patio area.

The Albemarle Baking Company, I think is where you have an edge that drops there, but most traffic is coming from the sides.

You know, I doubt folks are going to be really walking in and off the sidewalk straight into that air for, you know, just practical means.

They're usually coming in from the back parking lot or the side parking lot, and the sidewalk there are coming across.

So I'm not sure.

It seems like it's a certain condition where it's just enough rain, where there's extra rain coming off that edge.

And if it's pouring down raining, it's pouring down raining.

If it was me personally, I wouldn't put anything.

I think we've done enough, in a sense, from nothing.

As far as I'm concerned, I mean, you're the architect and you're also the Mr. Gageen owns the building, so it's however you guys want to handle it.

Yeah, I'm in favor of that.

Unless it creates a problem for the, and I don't think it will for the majority of it, but unless it creates some kind of a problem,

for people sitting there.

I think it's been okay at 4.20, so I haven't gotten negative feedback that need more, so maybe the ring handlers will work.

Allen is doing projects all over the country, so that's my assumption that we would still use that same type of riddle.

It's actually used over on the wing that extends out on the other side of this whole complex that contains

that backs out of the parking lot where the railroad tracks are.

You know I'm talking about it.

Let me see what image are we looking at right now, okay.

But it's used in another part of the building complex in addition to across the street and other places.

Yeah, I think

Ron Breck, Cheri.

Questions?

All right.

All right.

I don't have any concerns.

I think due to the industrial nature of this building and the industrial nature of the additions going on to it, I think it's okay that a lot of these details are probably figured out in shop drawings.

But I am concerned about lighting.

I think we need to have a way to review that, or at least have Jeff be able to review that.

I feel like lighting came up in the review of the earlier project and as I recall there was some question about the color of the light and I'd be comfortable if the lighting matches that were deployed there.

Let me say the earlier project.

Yes, next door.

I'm trying to remember what lighting I've seen up there.

Is that one brother at night all the time?

Well, I think it's going to be dark.

In the sample images, if I'm correct and it hasn't changed,

We use the string lights, you know, the classic restaurant.

I think those are adjustable and, you know, I have some of my porch that I change depending on the season, the color, and, you know, you can even do patterns, you know, blinking type stuff.

But I found that it's fairly successful for situations like that because they're highly adaptable and, you know, just create a spirit.

It's pretty effective without big glare points.

It's distributed at points of light.

Well, we always put the condition maximum of 3,000 kelvin and dimmable, which allows us to, if something's too bright, we can always reduce it later.

Right, and I think, you know, what we have right now is what is shown and what's presented and if suddenly something looks

Pops up out there that's not shown.

So I don't think it's okay if you all want to address it.

I know our standard.

preference that may be dimmable, require it to be no higher than 3,000 K, color temperature, and a CRI of 80, preferably 90.

Not less than 80, preferably not less than 90.

I'm finding most of these catenary lights that are out in the market, they fit.

But no, this short

answers.

I don't have a problem.

Are we okay with the wood?

I think at one point, and I don't know if it's actually in our guidelines, but I know Mary Joy used to always talk about saying it had to be opaque.

And I don't know that I've actually found that in our guidelines somewhere, but it was just the idea that we don't want the wood to fade into weather over time.

It's a fairly minor component.

I feel it won't be that visible.

I personally am okay with opaque.

I actually kind of prefer to get a consistency and I think it's a stronger finish with the ceiling and I'm sure we would share that concern of the woods quality being able to withstand the forces of the sun and the heat and we're going to try to get as strong of a wood as possible.

Species.

It doesn't happen, he would actually, you know, it could be, we could switch to a metal.

There's a certain ease when you have, you know, wood for applying all that roofing and such, and, you know, perhaps I thought that it was softened up a little bit, but even if we did metal two by twos, you know, maybe a thinner wall, so it could be screwed into, we could

We could maybe paint that brown as well to have just a little bit of color up there.

If I were to go metal, I'd probably want to be all the same color, I think.

I think if it's steel, it should match the steel below.

Like I said,

The gray that I'm thinking about has sort of a warm, warmness to it as it is.

Does anyone have objections to the wood?

I'm okay with it.

I have a few other comments.

I have a question for the rest of the board.

Are there any issues with this building literally touching the adjacent building that those are two different historic properties and then

Don't forget, that's an addition.

That little yellow piece was, we had to add that onto the building for bathrooms.

I have one comment about, overall I think the canopy in the front is really nice and clean and thin.

I think one of the defining features of the existing building is that brick work and how it curves up and it's, you know, I don't know if that accent brick is modeled exactly correct, but if there's any way for the tie rods to be inset from those so they don't

Don't sit right in between those two, the two curves of the accent, I think it would help those still read as kind of the defining piece.

And those are sort of just laid out in a rhythm and they haven't been

Placed, and I totally agree with that.

I think we can we can make an effort to, because I think that one that's over there actually looks close enough to the edge that it's maybe unnecessary, you know, close enough to the support of the other, the larger structure or the orzo.

So I think that's a good point.

We'll make sure that's not awkward, which is already it is.

You know, now that I'm looking at you pointed it out, I would at least centered it between those two if I had to have it there.

Any of the renderings that show the front.

I'm on page 1987, northeast with proposed, it's kind of a good view.

Curved.

There's the kind of reddish brick that's the two little strips of redish brick.

Another page to look at is 14 of 27.

I think that talks about what I was talking about.

This is a minor thing, but just in relation to that, it looks like the signage gets blocked now, you know, most of the shots where it looks like they're taken a little higher than eye level, but that one right there, you know, there's kind of a nice, and I don't know if the signage is really in our purview or relevant to our conversation tonight, but there is a nice composition in the way that looks right now, you know, the sign with the racing stripes or whatever we're calling that brick accent.

And we have to paint the building when it's, you know, the work is all done.

Yeah.

And then that would fit the new canopy area really well.

Probably going to be right in that zone.

and bring it up a little higher.

Just focusing on the guidelines, which is our purview.

I think it's an appropriate application.

The additions of the balconies and decks don't destroy historic elements, for the most part, that characterize the property.

And clearly the new work is going to be differentiated from the old.

And I think because of its sort of industrial car, auto sale background, the elements that are being introduced seem compatible with it and complement it really.

Jeff, I'm not sure if you received that email sent today on the survey.

Yeah.

I think you mentioned that earlier, maybe, but for 1999, the survey showed a canopy across the front of that.

No, I sent it to Jeff today.

But that speaks to what you just said.

I think that there's there actually were a lot of canopies along that

Huh, Allen?

No, nope.

A lot of it had functioned the way the parcel line was set.

Yeah.

A lot of these

A lot of the parcels, you know, they're not square, they're not parallelograms in a lot of places, so they're probably just following the line.

and so I don't have to say important but I know there was a lot of manufacturing, carriage works here so there may have been simply walls that they followed and maybe there wasn't anything on the other side to have any context from.

You have to remember West Main

really didn't have a lot of stuff.

So, you know, it wasn't like you would notice your building was at an angle to the neighboring building.

Maybe the, when West Main was a small road, it maybe was more perpendicular at that point to the hotlines.

I don't know.

The city and town council records are full of pages of discussions about West Main Street and headaches and problems.

So something for an energetic researcher to tell the people to do something.

I just wanted to add, I think

of the House over on Hartman's Mill Road.

That's the sort of the accumulation.

I think this, as a commercial building, is this the closest we have to that house over there.

It's sort of a, it's a whole lot going on there.

To go and tell you what parts what, I'm not sure I could, but it's an interesting building.

Alright, well, if there's no other comments, I think Carl, you were working up the motion.

Having considered the standards, some work from the city code, including city design guidelines, are ADC districts.

I voted to find the Canopies, Decks, and Paddios of the north and west facades at 416-14 West Main Street, satisfy the Vera Scorcheria and are compatible with this property, another property is in the downtown ADC district, and the VA approves the application with the following conditions.

Any lighting that should be added should be reviewed administratively by staff.

It should have a color temperature not to exceed 3,000 Kelvin, be dimmable, and have a color rendering index of a minimum of 80, preferably 90.

The tie rods for the canopies should be coordinated to not conflict with the accent brick on the front of the building.

Consider adjusting the signage to the front of the building.

And that's it.

All right, I'll call the vote.

Mr. Schwarz?

Yes.

Ms.

Lewis?

Aye.

Mr. Timmerman?

Aye.

Mr. Whitney?

Aye.

Mr. Bailey?

Yes.

Mr. Castinger?

Aye.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Tyler, you were talking about where the accent curves.

The rendering still doesn't show it accurately.

My brain's not functioning because the photograph does it better justice.

Greg, thanks a lot guys.

I'll follow up on this later.

Okay.

All right.

Have a good night.

Thank you.

Okay.

Thank you.

All right, our next item, there's no more new items, so we have a preliminary discussion of 715 through 729 West Main Street, the West Main Street ADC District.

So let me introduce this

There's a set of drawings I circulated today a couple hours ago.

I think you'd like to get things out to you ahead of meetings, but I know over the years we've had preliminary discussions where people have brought something to the meeting.

So we'll make the most out of this that we can.

I think that just a couple of caveats to all of this.

Could you put that up by the way?

Yeah.

Would you like the picture on it or the site?

Let me get away.

So there's a visual of the site, and I know Kevin and John are here.

So there's a couple of parcels involved here, two in the front, from the south, that face West Main.

Those are within the ADC district.

There's a

and Allie that then separates a parcel addressed on Cream Street that is outside of the ADC district.

I don't know what the status of that Allie is.

Our GIS shows that it doesn't come up as a property or a separate parcel.

John and Kevin probably addressed better what that is.

So if a project involves this as one lot,

then what happens on that back parcel would be part of the review.

But if it were totally separate from the front, then it would not fall under BAR purview.

The other piece is, as we all know, the zoning was updated and adopted in December.

The staff level was still

trying to understand all the fine-tuning that went on at the end.

I don't want to put Carl on the spot, but certainly Carl, if something I raise, you know, no, I mean, I mean, if it's, and I'll get to it in a second about the BAR's role.

So, but I have not done an analysis of this relative to zoning.

I haven't talked to zoning about it.

So what's in front of you is sort of aspirational and,

It's not something that I can say, oh yes, everything here is fine, except for the design review.

So I just want to get that caveat out of the way.

The, I think the bigger question that would, or two questions that would be at least most helpful, I think at the beginning of this discussion are the fate of the two contributing

The Mel's Diner was, it's a 1960s building.

It was added to the, as a contributing structure in 2014 when the map was updated.

It involves the entire building.

Jerry Rosenthal

Cinderblock building to the east of Mel's is non-contributing.

The building on the corner of 8th and West Main, kind of difficult to characterize.

Some uncertain dates on when it was built, but let's assume it was 1896.

It's had a lot done to it.

The parapet was changed, the front facade was changed, the storefronts

was redone.

The back edition was added sometime in the 30s and the entire building was gutted by fire in the 70s.

So what's left of it is a historic character.

I don't know, reading through the description, it's more of a shell of a building than anything.

So just to be clear on that.

But I think that

when I spoke with the applicants a couple of months ago was that I know Mel's is important locally.

I think it's an iconic piece of architecture that if nothing else, the front that

You know, the building with the strange roof is really a piece that would be, I think a lot of people would fight to preserve.

So that's the question about the preservation and retention of the buildings that you should talk about.

The, I pointed out at the beginning of the meeting, this is a zone CX-5, not CX-8, that was Meyer, and the

and the thing that the BAR, as far as the new design goes, I think that what, it's very similar to 612 West Main, it's a new building, not a lot going on on either side of it that's, you know, there's no tall buildings, so how does it, what best fits into this space, what sort of materials, what,

sort of stepped back from the road, if you will, and the city council and its discussions in December, one of the options I went before them, and I think it survived, was the BAR.

You all were allowed to

Reduce Heights, to be termed a precise slice of the downtown mall area and then everywhere else that's under your purview, the BAR wanted to reduce the height or proposed height deduction, it would be not less than, no more than two stories below,

what zoning allows.

Again, I know if you'll get into height discussion tonight, but that's where you are on that.

And that's all I really had.

I just wanted to give you those caveats and I think have a discussion about preservation retention of those structures and then something going there.

material space and what is a good test of are we designing for what is coming to West Main or is this designing for retaining some features of West Main that exist on either side of it.

With that I have no more wisdom to offer.

I'll hand off to

Hi everybody, I'm Kevin Riddle with Mitchell Matthews Architects.

If you could go back to that first aerial plan, Jeff,

We're coming to you with a proposal for the three sites you see here.

They would presumably be combined for what we're presenting to you.

So we have two that front on West Main Street.

There's the third property that's at the corner of Elsam and Creme that would be

again included with these two and so we assume that a proposal here would be reviewed in its entirety by you.

The site's a little over a half acre in size and as you can see the parking lot where maybe some of you park when you go to Continental Divide is not included.

That's the one parcel that's not a part of this project.

And the next slide, Jeff.

Here it is again with the boundaries in red.

The site is zoned with our new zoning as CX-5.

There are properties across from it, across from Cream Street that are RA.

And so that will impose a transition zone on a part of this property.

And you'll see the ramifications of that later in the presentation.

and the next slide.

Here it is again.

This time it's just emphasizing where the design control district is and emphasizing the contributing structures, which Jeff just described.

The late 19th century building on the corner at 731 West Main and then the building in which Mel's Cafe operates in the heart of the site.

We have some white dashed lines there.

Again, you'll see more about this later, where we're asking to what extent might these contributing structures kind of adapt to a newer building?

To what extent could they accommodate a new building?

Might there be partial demolition to make way for it?

And the next slide.

So this is just our kind of simple interpretation of where would be the area in plan that would be appropriate for a new building if the existing structures are preserved in part.

And so if the building in which Melz operates

The part of it that fronts on West Main Street were to remain, it does create an opportunity in its way because outdoor amenity space is necessary in the new zoning.

And so perhaps we thought that could be a good location for a sort of entry plaza.

and so in preserving the building, it also gives us a chance to create what could be a nice space, maybe not that unlike what's happening a few blocks east of here, that plaza around which you have public oyster and Oak Heart social.

I think, you know, Bruce in the pudding, that space is pretty nice.

It's a pretty great social gathering space.

Perhaps something like that could happen here.

We'll go to the next slide.

Here we've just changed to more of a bird's eye view.

And the next slide.

This is that kind of buildable area that's been translated into three dimensions, a volumetric study of where a building might be constructed here.

And so you see at the northeast of the site there at the corner of Elsam and Creme where there would be that transition zone.

A transition is a word that we would often call this a step back.

and so you can go up to three stories and then you have to build 20 feet in at stories above that and so you see that represented there.

Now that transition can also happen at lower stories which is in fact what we have in our proposal.

Also one more thing, with the CX-5 Zone, five stories is currently the height limit, but we're proposing a residential project which has available to it a bonus of two more stories.

So that would end up with a seven-story building.

And the next slide.

Here are just some plan views.

This is underground.

This is where there might be a parking found for the project accessed from Elsam Street.

And the next slide.

This is street level.

So there would be some parking accessed off of Cream Street toward the rear of the site.

Up at the front, we imagine there would be commercial use in this, what you might call the wings of the building.

And part of the original grocer that's there at the corner of West Main and 8th Street.

And then there would be a new wing built that would serve

perhaps a retail use.

There is going to be some level of amenities in this building.

We haven't really worked out yet exactly what would be where, but this gives you an idea of where it's headed.

And the next slide.

This just shows you a typical residential level in the upper stories.

And the next slide.

So here we've returned to the bird's eye view and we're seeing something that's more like an actual building.

This is very much a work in progress, by the way, but this is the beginnings of the shape it might take.

And the next slide.

We'll take a break here for just a moment to talk about some imagery that has served as inspiration for the project.

Some of these are closed by, some are not, some are no longer here.

Up at the top is the Hotel Albemarle with that pretty wonderful porch at the front.

Almost something like an arcaded space along the street.

the North Cross Station building and the lower left.

Pretty great building.

It would be worse without that fire escape in my opinion.

I like that a lot.

Down below, I believe that's where the Violet Crown is now, the Leggitz building.

The thing there that we really like is that sign with that

White glass reflective background to it.

It's almost like it anticipates an Apple iPhone chic, you know.

Maybe an interpretation of something like that and a sign on a new building.

We could have some promise.

And then to the right, a Mediterranean building with just some great simple detailing balconies articulated

with variation from level to level, a very simple facade, deep openings with doors and windows.

We like that a lot.

So on to the next slide.

And here is a view of the front, what it could be like.

You see the plaza at the bottom surrounding what is today Mel's Cafe.

Hopefully would be in the future even with a project like this coming along.

We picture that sign that might have hints of or be inspired by the old legged sign happening there on the right wing.

Again, very much a work in progress.

We haven't quite imagined exactly what it would be like yet, but just that it's on its way.

A large window opening up to some sort of bar or retail space.

and just a, we imagine this would be a nice place to gather outside kind of among all of these different potential businesses.

A lobby is beyond.

That is where we might capture something of the hotel, Albemarle's covered porch that there would be a layering there.

There would be columns out at the front and then there would be covered space leading to an enclosed lobby beyond.

And the next slide.

Here's a similar view of what just we backed away and we're showing more of the surroundings.

Imagining what it would be like with more trees planted there.

You can kind of see through the trees that what we're proposing at the front with the new wing that's on the east portion of the property

that it would be two stories tall and so its top would relate to many of the other buildings that front on the street there which are all about two stories and then on that wing it steps back about 20 feet before it rises to ultimately seven stories.

Now we can go to the next slide.

and then here's just another view.

Prominent on the left is the 1890s building at the corner of 8th and West Main and you see again just a different view of the plaza around which this new structure would enclose.

Up at the top, you know, we were imagining that there could be some kind of pavilion spaces.

We know the roof decks are rather popular now, offering great views.

We were wondering, too, might it be nice if Mel's remains to really celebrate and extend that unique W-shaped roof?

Perhaps there could be some, you know, kind of lovely metal framing.

that the roof shape would extend out, creating a little more shade, a play of shadows in the plaza.

As you go to the right, the new wing of the building might have a sort of soffit that then echoes that the undulations of the roof next to it and so the soffit itself would have a kind of valley shape to it.

and then up above, if the steel is to be painted in a bold color, maybe it's reintroduced in framing that's within those upper level pavilions.

So I will leave it there.

We're just here basically to get first impressions.

Do you see promise in what we're developing so far?

Do you see things that perhaps we're missing?

and Baker Stark.

I had a question regarding that.

Yeah.

Jeff can go to the slide with the dash white lines where I think y'all are kind of proposing the limits of demo.

Right.

Part of my question I guess is

Is the idea and the intent that if we retain melds it would continue to be a restaurant space or would it just, do we know?

Yeah, we need.

Right, we haven't been in there to really measure it and confirm, but it does not extend much at all.

Yeah, right.

I, for one, would be opposed to the demolition of the front portion of what's now Mel's.

I'd probably be open to the demolition of the back portion.

Don't want to speak for the entire BAR.

where I'm landing.

Similarly with the 731 West Main, I went and took a look today, you know, it's clear where the 1930s edition is because there's a coal joint in the masonry.

Right.

On the west side,

They're still pretty clear evidence of where the storefront was infilled.

So, you know, I would encourage y'all to explore that a little bit more.

You know, the idea of having kind of opening that up to a view into your amenities, I think acceptable, but perhaps maybe look to see, do some research, see if there's some ways to maybe echo and honor the original storefront there, instead of just blasting a big hole, even though that's kind of what's there now.

Oh, right, right.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think our idea is for about from the frontage on West Main Street and 50 feet in that

at least at the moment that the building might enjoy some restoration, but that we wouldn't really be proposing that much change to that building there.

And even along the Mason Street facade on 8th Street, much of that might remain, but that's some portion within the building.

It doesn't rob it of its depth on main.

You know what I mean?

I agree.

I guess what I'm saying is on 8th Street, I think you could actually open that corner up, maybe 10 feet or so back to the next pilaster if you want.

All right.

Glass, you know, storefront facing 8th, which would kind of open up that corner.

I think so.

Maybe two steps down.

How much of that set of 3-1 are you proposing taking down?

Is that sort of dashed block in the rear?

Right, right.

I appreciate y'all working around the existing buildings.

Yeah, I like the, from a site plan approach and a massing approach, I think it's, I think it's believable and a good strategy that could yield good results.

And I think, you know, both the Quirk and the 600 West Main are other good examples of similar strategy that have worked

There's a couple of things that I, so the one challenge I think from the massing standpoint, it's really not so much an issue for us, but this really will make a considerable impact on the homes on Ellesam Street, but they're outside of our consideration in some ways, they're outside of the historic district.

But I can imagine being an issue for others.

From our point of view, the two things that, so the massing I feel okay about, but the sort of couple of directions that I see in the articulation of the buildings that I understand,

They're early, but I really don't feel good about the extension of the Melzdeiner Roof Line or the mimicking of it in the building.

It seems kind of a, it diminishes I think the original structure.

I would encourage contrast rather than kind of mimicry and I think we just dealt with that

In some detail at the now the black cow canopy, we're working with a similar age structure that we worked hard for that canopy not to be confused with the original automotive station just behind it and I think that was successful.

The other is that as the building design continues, I'd look for ways to convince us that this really belongs in Charlottesville.

There's something kind of

anywhereness or kind of no-awareness about the direction of the building articulation that's happening and that worries me.

The horizontal banding that is really strong part is

runs counter to some of our guidelines about the verticality of large buildings in commercial districts.

And the balconies feel really cheap and inexpensive and kind of could be anywhere.

And then I think that the other lesson is the first piece that comes out and really addresses Main Street.

I think there's an opportunity there to do something

to really address the street with the facade rather than feeling like kind of like a continuation of the same floor plate kind of wrapped around.

And I think the Quirk is an example of, you know, taking advantage of that street frontage and really creating a presence that make that contributes to Main Street.

I completely agree with everything that Breck has said.

I want to emphasize that I think you need to preserve the entire 19th century portion of the building on the quarter of 8th Street.

It looks like in your renderings you're only keeping about half of it.

So yeah, I think you need to

I'm okay with losing the 1930s portion, the one-story portion, but I think you do need to keep that whole two-story portion.

And as you're looking at it and looking at that wall, there are some interesting vested signs still on that wall that I hate to see you guys point and watch it or cover it up.

The way that you

and

East Main Street or dealt with.

And I think they all, except for the main building right there in the corner, do actually only come up with about four stories maximum.

So even the, was it Miller and Rhodes?

The one that, on the corner of Fourth Street, it's even a tall building, but it's on four stories on the mall.

So doing two stories I think is great.

It keeps it with the rest of the buildings on the street.

This is not so much BAR, but I am curious how the streetscape standards are going to affect you on Cream Street, for instance, or if you tear down the 1930s portion of the building in the corner of 8th, will you have to then step your building inward to accommodate

and

There's a whole lot of extra space.

You don't really need to have a sidewalk there.

Yeah, I actually should have mentioned, Carl, that this proposal takes the building about five, almost six feet off of that boundary.

And the idea is that we would introduce a sidewalk.

It wouldn't be extremely wide.

It might not be up to some of the aspirational standards.

But on the side on 8th Street, the existing sidewalk is probably not even five feet wide.

on West Main Street.

It's typical for these buildings on the blocks to the east and west and as well the 19th century building on this block for them to be eight feet from the curb.

And so one of the things we were proposing, and it would take some negotiation with the city, is that there might be four new planting beds constructed that would actually come into the street.

they would, you have parallel parking there now so they might, there would have to be some reorganization of the parallel parking but it would be a way to allow for more trees there that are right in the middle of the sidewalks as they're currently planted and that that could be a good way to reach a compromise because like you say this would be a, I think a street type B streetscape is what the new ordinance calls for and that I think

Hopes to see a seven foot planting buffer and an eight foot sidewalk.

How do you find room for that?

And especially if there's city infrastructure in the street, that could be a challenge.

Good.

All right, so I'm glad that's on your radar.

Yeah, I agree with Breck on the aesthetics of the building.

The stacked approach is, it seems kind of foreign to the context of West Main.

How do y'all view the new court project, referencing that sort of observation?

I mean, I know, I love the way it comes out and it has a very nice, large opening.

It's a wonderful way the whole lobby continues from that.

But when you look at the building itself, it's so very simple.

It has vertical openings, not unlike this.

They're actually staggered in that case, which to me seems like something to talk about.

I mean, that's pretty foreign.

And yet the building, I think, altogether works pretty well, largely because it is simple, straightforward.

And that's something of what we're going for here.

I mean, I would differ about the balconies.

I mean, maybe it's hard to tell from the imagery, and that critique is true.

But those are meant to be metal balconies that would be a little better and special than

Then, you know, what we have elsewhere, there's even some kind of shape to the balusters that we think could be a little bit interesting, especially as you got up close.

But again, probably hard to appreciate from a view like this.

So, yeah, I guess we're talking about the part of the quirk you see in the background, the main body of the building.

It seems to me like you could look at that and say, is that Charlottesville?

But I don't know.

The cork, I mean, I believe the cork does work very well.

And I think one of the things that it has worked very hard to have extremely minimal details.

And I guess if you feel very strongly about the aesthetic that you guys are developing, convince us.

But right now, the cartoon version we're seeing right now, the connotation that's coming from that is I don't think it's what you want it to be.

Well we'd love for it to be a masonry and we do it and it did render the bottom story with a different masonry that so that it would be distinguished from the upper stories but yeah it's true it is so preliminary now I mean obviously this wouldn't be a concrete building but you might you could mistake it for one and I don't think it's gonna be a

Stucco Building either, but it's true once we get into determining material choices that I think that would help to take it in a promising direction.

There's many ways it could be confitted into the context of it.

It could be materiality or texture.

It certainly doesn't have to be red brick.

But I think proportion, the way that it relates to the building rhythm along Bess Mayne, all of those things can contribute.

And I do agree that what that quirk is

really successful.

One of the ways that it has been successful and we've seen other buildings not be as successful as that they were able to hold on to the materiality that they proposed from the beginning.

We've seen other projects that have been similarly simple, but the materials got cheaper and cheaper and that makes a massive difference.

Yeah, I guess I'm just not sure how kind of enhanced or

Detailing that echoes the traditional will necessarily make up for materials that just get too expensive to use, you know what I mean?

I'll add one other comment on that issue, which is when you look at that picture of the cork, the sort of front facade is kind of more in keeping with the massing and the scale of the rest of the street, whereas if you contrast it with this image,

The front sort of facade and by that I'm talking about just the wing on the right hand side.

You know, Kerry's all of that other sort of the rest of the building.

So there's a continuity that happens there that draws your eye to the whole thing versus in the cork.

You don't see that as much.

And that might be something that you were kind of referring to, I felt like, in talking about seeing some contrast, which I also agree with, between the kind of historic structures and what you're presenting as your front facade.

So I think that's an important difference between sort of these two images that we were just looking at.

Right, yeah.

But I like, I mean I'm going to echo everybody else and I really appreciate the willingness to maintain historic structures.

I mean I think those are two pieces of fabric that we all kind of love about Main Street and we all associate as part of our place.

So keeping those goes a long way.

I also like the sort of the way that you're starting to look at activating the roof and the sort of the upper portion of the building and seeing that as a place of activity, you know, that might interrupt some of the sort of the more of the monotony from, you know, story one up to the top.

So kind of like the feeling of whimsy up there, you know, and

There's a way to carry that a little bit more, too.

I don't think it's a matter so much of, this has to look like Charlottesville.

It's more of the issues that other folks have raised, which is thinking of

In general, I like the massing.

I like the way it looks.

I'm not sure what looking like Charlottesville necessarily means in that regard.

I just want a building that's clean, modern, and preserves the historic structures as part of that.

and I think that this direction is probably the right direction to go in my opinion at this point.

Of course, we'll have to go through the process and see what the materials are.

The point taken earlier made is we've gone through a lot of buildings that came out with wonderful materials and then, well, we can't get that or we can't get, and they got cheaper and cheaper and cheaper and they don't look nearly as good as they were initially proposed.

So be very careful about that as you go forward with this.

I want to speak to the Mel's building.

I think it's one of the most interesting buildings in Charlottesville.

I don't think we have a lot of examples of this mid-century, almost googly type architecture in the city.

I think having that outdoor space around it to preserve, I think a lot of what's important is seeing that roof line and having some breathing room around it.

I think the amount of outdoor space you have around it now is a good amount and I wouldn't want to see that minimized to try to really kind of let that roof line sing.

I am open to demolishing the garage portions at the back of the site, I don't.

Don't read those in the same way as I do the front of that building.

I do think I would like to see the 731 building preserved to the whole second story of the building.

I don't think it blows up your floor plate to work around that and I do think some of the ghost signage along 8th Street is interesting and if there's any way to kind of incorporate that or keep that as that building gets preserved

And just talking about Mel specifically, I mean I think it's been around since the 90s the business itself and just being respectful of trying to have this project kind of work around and not run that business off I think is an important thing for the community.

And yeah, again, so that outdoor space I think is important and leaving some of it to be dedicated to the restaurant and not having it all just feel like the front entry into the building I think is a way to kind of do that.

The massing and the rendering itself, I don't have a lot of issues with.

I think it's kind of interesting.

So I don't have a lot of comments there.

I think some of the precedent, Enrygy, the Leggett sign, I think incorporating some of that into the signage.

The Mel's building does an interesting thing that you can see the original dry cleaning sign.

They've kind of kept a portion of it, but made it their own.

Respecting that, but then being able to incorporate interesting signage into the new building I think is a good

You know, one thing just to maybe get some other observations if you have some.

Breck was mentioning the potential for kind of extending that roof form out with a canopy like we're showing here.

And I appreciate what you're saying.

I wouldn't want to add something there that would kind of muddy the history or appear to be like we were recreating something that wasn't there.

I guess the idea was that we were thinking this would be, this would sort of

and Michael

to create a little more kind of covering and shelter of that space.

And with these columns extending down, with these red beams, perhaps supporting those, I don't think it would be mistaken for something that was there at Mel's all along.

We also decided, perhaps somewhat arbitrarily, but to break it.

So you have, like on the left, you have a V shape that kind of mimics what's there.

And then it's kind of missing all the way back to the building.

And then it's taken back up again there to the right.

Now, maybe now that I pointed that out, you're lucky even less, but that was just sort of a way to give it a little bit of kind of individuality, a little asymmetry kind of within the playing off of the kind of symmetry that it currently has.

If other people think it's a bad idea, I mean, I hear you.

It's a little hard to read the image for me.

Yeah, I'm wondering if you could go to, like, the next slide or... And maybe that's what it's a question of just in the future to kind of show it more clearly or distinctly to you.

Probably the next one gives you a slightly better idea of it, although even there maybe it's obscured somewhat.

The aerial view probably helps.

Yeah, I think you can see those

This image gives me a little pause, and I know you'll do a better job, but it looks like the unfinished hotel on the downtown mall.

Just with the back three-year holes, it looks like a bombed-out hotel.

I also wondered if a cord is at the top, wouldn't hurt.

I'm not a modern architect so I will leave you guys to those details.

I think that the rooftop amenity is a great idea.

As you pointed out, lots of people love them.

Yeah, and the way you're using color schemes to try and tie down to miles or something, that's helpful.

Yeah, maybe it comes off as a little stark.

Part of what we were thinking too is that whatever sort of material or colors ultimately use on much of the building,

It might be better that it be somewhat muted and reserved.

This is very basic and it is very just early going.

But we also are making some effort at least at this stage to show the potential for those to be somewhat deeper openings, the vertical openings.

to allow for, in some cases, maybe just the shallowest of Juliette balconies.

I recognize this is very preliminary, so I want to go down that road too far.

Madder thought was, I agree with Tyler in that, in preserving a lot of open space around melds.

I'll just mention that in a lot of recent applications where we have open space, designing space, pretty soon people are asking for tents.

And so I hate to see tents starting to get crammed in here.

Just extra canopies, you know?

I don't think I had realized the degree of the proposal to build this canopy structure in front of the building.

I don't want to speak for everyone, but in my opinion, I think you're distracting from the Bell's building with that structure.

So I don't think I'd want to see

Yeah, I agree with Breck and Tyler.

I think celebrating Mel's is the jewel, right?

Yeah.

And I think people will say, wow, look at what a great job they did.

Right, right.

And as Tyler said, save the business as well.

I feel like the massing, someone, I think Carl, you said you liked the two story, I feel like the building could come forward more towards Main Street than just the two stories.

Yeah, four stores might feel better than seven, but I feel like more could come forward.

I kind of would like to see all those upper stories.

Oh, right, right, yeah.

Yeah, that'll take a little bit of evaluation as we get deeper into this because I haven't tried to puzzle out like how could we create this sort of cool inverted ceiling that would continue in echoing the

sort of the shallow canopy of that portion outside.

But, you know, maybe rhyming with the W of Mel's is being discouraged anyway.

So maybe some reevaluation on the shape that takes could be beneficial.

Modern interpretation of the subject we're going to be.

I'm going to go out on a limb.

I know that we typically don't want for new construction to mimic historic aspects of the building we want it.

I just read from, I'm going to contradict Godlaw, and I just read from my last application, but that's what we can do here.

And that we want them to be compatible, but maybe contrasting, showing old with new.

Certainly, if we retain 731,

hopefully will retain some aspects of that building and the air of that building.

But I'm thinking with regard to the new structure, I mean 1962 is a pretty cool year for architecture folks and I mean there's, I just scrolled through some awesome motel, hotel that were built.

in a very contemporary style in the 1960s.

I'd rather see something that really looks stylized.

You're not going to mimic the W of Mel's, but maybe grasping that era and complimenting it in something that would really be actually significant and really beautiful.

instead of something that I feel like this building is trying to downplay itself.

It's acting small and I just think you could do something really significant and really something remarkable there with a nod to mid-century.

And I don't think it would harm either of the existing buildings if it's done well.

I think it would certainly, and certainly with the males building, compliment it.

But not try to mimic it, not try to have the W roof plan or anything like that.

But there's just some great architecture that happened a long time ago.

Right.

I don't like that idea.

And that, as Tyler said, there's really nothing like mills in Charlottesville.

It's that really unique thing.

And a lot of it has been destroyed.

We did have some pretty groovy, mid-century buildings that have been, for one reason or another, disregarded as being historic in the last 30 to 40 years and are no longer.

I get probably a question or two a month about that and some buildings that are gone.

Richard Guy Wilson is really trying to burrow into some of the architecture of the 40s and 50s and 60s of Charlottesville.

He's asked me about some buildings I've never been aware of and some that we have that

Like for example, Go Pass Food of All Nations, there's that exposed aggregate kind of bunker building.

It has a pretty interesting story.

It wasn't somebody saying, I don't know what to use.

How about cement?

So there are some designs around the city that are still left, but they're hidden.

And I would agree with you.

and Michael Kochis.

Boulogne, or Be Bold and Be New, and that's a place to start from.

So I agree entirely with what Cheri's saying.

I wanted to just, if I could throw in just some thoughts that, and maybe these are more for design review guidelines, or design guidelines discussion, but one of the things, and Brett can chime in on this as well, that

and I see if I can make sure I get this.

But in our discussions about the downtown mall, we're recognizing these side streets that are not active.

Some are paved, some have brick, but they're just long, blank wall.

And I think that it's an opportunity

here, certainly, and in design guidelines.

So I'm using you guys, if you don't mind, a little bullet board right now.

But I think it's worth exploring, because to me, I mean, I walked down that.

That's not an inviting street.

But we've got these coming off of the mall.

So there's an opportunity here to do some things.

and also just a lot of, so what used to be, what used to be here was just an extension of this building here, well, separate buildings, but this was a big furniture store burned down in the 60s and I hadn't realized that this building had been gutted in the 70s, so

I would be curious what has the fighters, what's been the impact on that structure?

Because I'm just becoming less and less impressed with this building.

Well, you have this image up, Jeff, by the way, I do agree with everyone's comments about this facade on 8th Street, the grunginess, the toughness, the character of it.

There's this image here, and just while we have the collective group,

I cannot for the length of this figure out.

This is what I was talking about on the 8th Street side, where they're on Bay.

Right, right.

Yeah, that would be pretty cool.

Yeah, I think they've done some weird things over the years.

It's like you have a sort of pilaster applied and fluted there, but now they've come back and sort of bricked over some of that.

It's interesting too, the image on the left, you can see that for a very long time, the brickwork up above the second story windows has sort of had variation that reflects some kind of repairs or just

Slight changes in materials.

But yeah, I mean, that's not, I don't know what was going on in there.

I guess they didn't have any.

There's four wind-eated air conditioners.

My tiny little house had four wind stoves in it at one point.

And I would think too, I don't know if you guys disagree, when we look at this facade that faces what would be sort of the court of males of the 19th century building, you know, it's just painted kind of a yellow right now, no openings.

I would think there would be an opportunity to maybe create some openings at ground level there that could be successful.

I don't know if people agree with that or not.

Okay, so similar condition is the that the ice rink, the

Code building?

Code building.

I don't think so.

No, I think we're good.

I think that's opening very helpful.

Thank y'all for presenting to us.

Thinking the spirit of making sure our staff member heals up well.

I didn't have my computer at the ability

even if I had it at home because it changed how we access and remotely.

I was like, I've got to go in no matter what.

And Missy's like, but you could cancel the meeting.

I'm like, I can't.

John will beat me up.

But I was like, it's much easier to just come in here and get this over with.

But I appreciate your saying.

I have a very, very busy month coming up in terms of four weeks.

So we have some significant extracurricular projects coming in.

So I'm going to be busy.

So I don't know quite what to do with the guidelines.

At this point, I'm trying to share something today.

Just kind of have to set it aside and let me get over this.

and I'll see what we can do, share some ideas with the chair and vice chair about picking it up in February.

Also, I think February is another one-seat meeting, so just add that in mind.

But to see you all know, what's going on internally is with the new zoning ordinance, now we've got to get how we do what we do

We have a new computer system.

If any of you have noticed that, if you submit something to the city now, it all comes in electronically.

Molly was my, she took care of that for me because it was only till last Thursday that I figured out how to log on to that.

So I beg patience, but we will get to the guidelines, but it's probably going to be a little bit of a break.

I don't think, I don't have any updates for you all, except for the downtown mall,

National Register nomination went to the feds.

They had a question about clarifying the date of a period of importance that DHR is resolving.

So I think that will still go through, but that's why we haven't heard about that.

And then as I said, shared on Monday,

Steve Gaines will be making presentations to the council about the tree management plan on the mall, so if you've got any questions about that, you can urge them to listen in on that.

But are there any burning issues that you all had, need me to, and I know I need to still figure out a day.

I don't foresee anything, I don't have anything on

coming in, no one's really talking about any big BAR issues.

They won't be back next month.

All right.

Second.

All right.