City Council Meeting   2/5/2024

Thomas, will you please call the roll?

Vice Mayor Pinkston.

Here.

Councillor Snook.

Here.

Mayor Wade.

Is there a motion to approve or amend the agenda?

Second.

So can we cast a vote?

Okay, this meeting will be divided into three main sections.

The first items for report is Development Review Procedures Manual, Mr. Freeze.

So Mr. Williams, our Housing Program Manager is going to go first.

So Alex DiCofono will speak first.

Is this item number two or three?

This afternoon we will be presenting Hediyu Manoa, which is essentially

So with that in mind, I will turn it over to our housing manager.

Good evening, Council.

And we are now at the point for questions and follow-up.

Excuse me.

Yeah.

So are there questions or comments?

I was wondering whether we have any answer back.

So we do have a consultant online to speak to that.

So we use numbers that we collected from the City of Charlottesville based on recent development that has occurred and interviews with folks that are doing development there, and those are the numbers that were put into the model that provided the numbers that you saw.

Why would, for a three bedroom apartment, why would a three bedroom apartment being rented cost $547,000 to build but a three bedroom apartment being sold as a condo cost $483,000?

So not only was the average price higher, the average size was higher.

Can you say those two numbers again, please?

The square footages?

Yes, please.

Yes, so the average square footage for a condo recently built in the city was about 1,452 square feet and the average for a three bedroom built was about 1,560 square feet based on the feedback that we got from developers and from the research we did of recent developed projects.

Whereas a three bedroom condo is only going to be about 15% more expensive than a two bedroom condo.

This is the information that we collected based off of stuff that has been built in the community and feedback that we got from your development community.

It would seem to me that it ought to have a better theoretical underpinning other than just, well, the last year there were some distortions in the marketplace.

We don't take a position either one, but I just putting some options out there for you.

What is the average size of two bedroom units being built?

1,050 square feet on average, so substantially smaller.

Is that for whether it's for rental or for condo?

Okay.

So Natalie?

These numbers are based off the market that we've had and the constraints that we've had and we're using them project onto a new market with different constraints.

which is the reason why we recommended that these policies be updated and these analysis be updated at least every two years our recommendation was annually to adjust for those specific issues which is that markets of all.

So if this gets passed, if that gets passed, we're going to need to revisit this sooner rather than later.

It was also the Housing Advisory Committee's recommendation to review it annually as well.

Is the term affordable dwelling unit with the abbreviation ADU something that is local or something that is generally accepted?

Common for any locality that is effectuating a affordable dwelling unit program to use those same terminologies.

And I'm wondering if there's a way where we could not go with the state verbiage here just for clarity's sake.

I came from Florida and ADU strictly meant that.

Right.

My first few months here were tough because any time.

Yeah, reading this, I kept having to remind myself, does anyone object to possibly retitling it for our specific locality, like an AU or something else that makes sense?

does use ADU and accessory dwelling units, so I don't know if that prevents this.

We could use the, instead of the three-letter, three-word, three-term acronym, possibly go with ADUO or ADUP for program.

Something to make it clear.

And I think that might keep us more consistent with the language and state code.

Because if it confused everybody along the way, then I think there's room to clear that up.

Does it confuse us if we deviate from state law so that only in Charlottesville will this be known this way?

I like your additive instead of reductive suggestion where it's like an ADU-P or something where it's still got the ADU in there but then it separates it somehow whereas I was suggesting something where we take out a letter but adding it could be

What do they call it in Richmond or Arlington?

It's an affordable dwelling unit in abbreviated ADU also.

And I think everyone's just muddling through confused.

But to Councillor Oschrin's point, a suffix, if you will, would probably work just fine from a legal perspective.

Is this something we should add to our legislative agenda?

What suffix would we add to it, ADU-?

Would you suggest a program or?

So it's more consistent, I think, across other uses, if we say program.

Or is that an action item discussion thing later?

I think we can go into it.

So on page three of the draft, what happens if there's a four bedroom unit?

Yes.

This is assuming if it's above 0.5, you have to build it.

We will calculate it as a whole unit.

Next page.

What page are we on now?

The chart in figure three, if they're not getting as much for a four bedroom unit, couldn't we see this pricing scheme as incentivizing smaller units?

Are you asking if the developer's not getting as much for four bedrooms?

What's the math here that's determining that?

The amount per unit there.

And so we were just trying to be brief to keep the document from being even more dense than it already is.

I think we might be on the next page.

Let me see if I could find a version.

Could we scroll to that?

But if I can go back to your question, it was if it would incentivize at an applicant to develop a smaller unit versus

How the maximum monthly rent was calculated for Studio 1234, right?

Right, because with the cap as it is, not that much higher than a two-bedroom.

If I'm hearing your question correctly, there isn't a deviation from that consideration.

Which table are you referring to now?

Figure three.

And that's working around the assumption that the renter is not paying more than 30% of their annual median income.

And I will just note, it also includes the language that if any discrepancy arise, the rent limits indicated by HUD will take precedence over other guidance and limits, which I think is a protection element there.

And that may occur before this manual is updated.

But maybe I don't know, I'm asking.

So if new development was to follow that trend in terms of the city's footprint, if that's any indication where that trend may go.

Of course, those places all get leased up a year in advance, so they wouldn't hit the market, so to speak.

But again, around that time, that was the pattern.

So if we could, you know, go ahead and get out questions and on this topic, you know, and if we could keep our responses short and sweet, if we can, that'd be great.

Will we have time to discuss this again before we vote on it later?

But, you know, we'll have time.

Okay.

But we can, we still have some time now.

So I guess this should be more specific like when it's included, right?

are deferred to Mr. Freese.

But where parking is charged for, we want it included within the calculation of the affordable rent.

So should we just add language here that says when provided?

OK, that would be great.

Like if we had a suggestion for a question about if they have a big down payment, how does that affect how the math works out for their monthly payments down the line?

Are you referring to the top paragraph?

Yeah.

Is that what I'm hearing?

So then the math that the seller can use to determine the price of the house adjusts based on the buyer instead of being a flat sale price.

a large payment and their payments based on whatever they end up mortgaging and financing those terms amounts to 30% of their annual median income for the household.

tries to buy it and then we have to look at their income and all of that, or is there a negotiation between the seller and the buyer to set the price of the house based on the income of the buyer?

again, and deferred to technical expertise here that are with me, is that payment, if it's at 30% of their household income, then they are meeting the tenants of the program.

I don't know if that makes sense, but I just.

That could fall in that realm.

So we'll be flexible and adaptable if we need to add clauses?

just consider that with regards to another measure, a mechanism, a flexibility that you have with regards to your ADU program.

Calculation typo, or is it a different kind of calculation once you start?

So it should, it could very well be a typo.

Yeah, it took me a while to catch up to

And if you go to their website and read through their form of how they get to where they are, it explains this such in HUD language.

So it's not just a simple percentage.

Folks out there just doing general searches in the market and not aiming to qualify for a supported or subsidized unit or program So the your observation is very keen and it's something that we've considered in that context Okay, so that this table is accurate based on HUD's correct math Two paragraphs down it says that

So it's capping it at lower than what the actual CRHA manual says.

The CRHA manual?

So it's just out of alignment with another internal

But I think the CRHA, and I can't speak, it's something that I will have to, it's a technical question I will have to follow with the executive director or their program teams, but I believe that HUD allows them a certain allowance to push that threshold, and I can't remember the mechanisms of what circumstances they're allowed to do that, so I think that's why that reads different in their manual, but it's something I definitely will follow up on for you.

Okay, yeah, I just want to make sure that that is in alignment.

Okay.

It's right at the top.

Is that an ordinance consideration?

We should try and maximize our space and parking management as much as possible.

And then that that tenant would be out of a parking space if they required one.

Letting someone else use the parking spot.

Well, it says the renters may not suffer.

Doesn't, if the rhetoric could sublet, what effect would that have on income, on income and all that kind of stuff?

It teases along the lines of the consideration discussions that took up, that were taken up with regards to subletting ADU units and why that's not permissible.

If you don't have a car, there's space that someone else could be using.

I'll have to revisit the notes and see if there's a specific reason why that was included or if it were included in the version that was initially introduced to the Council in planning commission back in September, October, or if this is a new consideration.

Good news, that was my last question.

Thank you.

So I'm very comfortable passing it as is with the recognition that this will be a living document and that is our expectation.

So that when you say that it's going to be revisited annually, is that something that has to come back to council or just the numbers or some of the components will be just updated by staff?

I think they have the option to make that decision.

Are there other questions on this from counselors before we move on to the first item?

Your understanding that we will get to have more questions later on this evening.

Okay, Sam, we can.

Thank you.

Are you doing the toolkit or do you consider that already part of what you did?

If you all want to let me have the hot seat, I would gladly take that opportunity.

I think we'll do that.

The toolkit?

We'll pass out the copies of the toolkit and are they posted on the website?

It was in the packet it is.

And that kind of wraps up what that tool did.

This was program area one, two, and three.

Thank you.

Do folks in the Meadows have any sense about this effort?

We may hear overlapping things, but we wanted to put forth the seven tools that would give us the most versatility, and we believe these are it.

So tonight you're only going to be voting on the ADU manual and the development procedures manual, not the toolkit itself.

Is that still a plan for it and is there already money available to do that?

Yes, to both of those, yes.

If that's underway, will that be Office of Community Solutions or is that another?

Thank you.

So thank you.

What our interest is, is towards the greatest degree of compliance with the objectives, goals and objectives of the comprehensive plan.

Quick question, is that a different new document?

It's effectively a new document.

It sounds like a conceptual design, some kind of slash narrative, some sort of framing of the overall project.

Yeah, it's a conceptual plan.

Yeah.

So I'll close there so you all can ask me questions.

Just to follow up on the last thought, so when would there not be a community meeting or public meeting required when there has been now?

And in this case, what we are moving towards is there being an applicant hosted meeting for, again, anything that involves a discretionary review and those projects that require a TDM, but otherwise not require a community meeting to be held where there's a site plan review required.

Would there be any opportunity for the members of the public to understand, to hear that presentation, to be able to comment?

If you have questions about the project or that kind of thing.

Okay.

And remind me again for the TDMs, you referenced 50,000 square feet, it's triggered, what are some of the other major trigger requirements for that?

It's just straight up triggered by 50,000 square feet of square footage.

Like for a sense of scale, like what recent projects like wouldn't fall under that?

Residential units.

Because I'm also thinking like a subdivision context.

So potentially.

How was 50,000 arrived at?

So roughly that.

Do you want me to send those to you separately?

Okay.

Is there specific scenarios where one might be more appropriate than the other?

No, I don't think so.

Okay, I was just wondering about the or.

Creasy was noting that if council initiates it, it does trigger a timeline.

Is this different and why wouldn't something require a development plan?

What do you all want to take from me?

It should be zoned differently.

They just want to correct that.

And so we see it rarely, but it is an option.

I don't, I just, I'm curious why it's different.

It's discovered as we're reviewing the manual or preparing the manual, so we're going to be correcting that.

Okay, so that's just a type of not a rationale thing.

Notably that error exists in our existing ordinance as well, so it was carried forward.

What does that look like in a city?

So during construction, how are you managing sediment coming off of your construction site?

We're not aiming for like little urban retention ponds everywhere.

Developers have to come up with solutions that meet the state requirements and our local requirements, and that generally in an urban area, the cost of land suggests that I'm not going to do a pond, but we see highly engineered, often underground or other forms of engineered solution.

I know we have to draw a line somewhere, but why did we choose there?

And so we're lining up with that.

So state regs are?

I'll say that I think that's one of those things that we're going to continue to assess going forward because we really want to pay attention to that line and where that line is drawn.

What's, what are the considerations that go into that?

It's, it's there to give us that option.

Okay.

Interesting.

Number three, it says complete within 45 days, and then shall act upon within 35 days.

The section is copied and pasted straight from state code.

Is it subplot or sublot?

Sublot, you got it, sublot.

Are those going to be reviewed the same way?

But from the standpoint of subdivision law, it is a subdivision has to be treated exactly the same.

And then on page 24 for sublot requirements and subcontact city staff for assistance, is that NDS?

for this manual, I'm sorry.

And do they call, do they contact via portal or?

I suspect it will, we will take the call through the front desk and the front desk will route them to a planner.

Are we keeping that in there even though we don't require parking anymore?

It sounds like it's a carryover.

So we would just say zero?

OK.

But we would be comfortable.

OK, great.

What are those?

A phase two tends to be more of a site, at least some site level investigation.

So like walking around, looking at stuff.

Brian, you probably know better than I do what a phase two looks like.

I want to stay well away from that.

But in either case, both are looking at what are the potential environmental conditions on a site.

And like what if a tree is like a bad tree?

So we'll see how this one goes from experience down the road.

So if I'm taking down trees and it knocks me below my canopy requirement on my site, then what's the level of planting necessary to restore that canopy requirement?

Like there's not a credit system.

I mean again, the goal is compliance with the ordinance.

Okay.

But perhaps another topic for us to take up when we do our review of the environmental side of things.

City, or like kind of homo, like hot food.

Depends on the ownership of the alley, and that's a whole thing on its own.

Also for the future.

Yeah.

So we're going to go by another 10 minutes, and we can continue the questions.

Yeah, I think that's.

I'm doing that.

Yeah, I'm good.

Other me.

Thank you.

Yes, thank you.

I don't have any additional questions.

And I don't have any recommendation in terms of changing it, but I just have some concern there.

even if it's dependent on a project, if it's 15,000 square feet to get some public input.

What are kind of the rules now or what do you see happen?

Yes, there's great advantage when you get the community involved or something like the traffic demand.

that they can come and say something if they want to.

was kind of getting out of whack.

I would hope that there would still be some opportunity for that kind of engagement, even if everybody comes to understand that they're not going to be able to scuttle the project that way.

It's just not having that standard set Wednesday meeting at 10 o'clock in our conference room for and again, just going by right, not anything that needs special use or

I think we definitely have a lot more to discuss later, but I know we have some items in closed session that we have to discuss.

The staff recommendation, how it came to pass and allow you all to have any further deliberation on the matter, realizing that you didn't have a lot of time at the moment that you made the decision to accept what was being offered to you, but wanting to give you the opportunity to revisit that should we need to make such a change before the 19th.

So with that, I'm happy to answer any questions that you all have about that aspect of things.

So before you do that, I don't know exactly where in the agenda we would do that.

Because we do have a substantive closed session.

But but yeah, we can put it at the end.

I'm just making sure.

It wasn't part of the agenda approval, so I'll have to add something.

Yeah.

All right.

Is there a motion to go into closed meeting?

pretending to actual litigation where consultation or briefing an open meeting would adversely affect the litigating posture of the City Council, specifically White v. Charlottesville, and to pursuant to code of Virginia Section 2.2-3711A1 for the discussion and consideration of prospective candidates for appointment to city boards, commissions, or authorities, specifically the Planning Commission and the Police Civilian Oversight Board.

Thank you.

Is there a motion to certify the closed meeting?

Sure, I move that this council certify by recorded vote that to the best of each councilor's knowledge, only public business matters lawfully exempted from open meeting requirements of the Virginia Freedom of Information Act and identified in the motion convening the closed meeting were heard, discussed, or considered in the closed meeting.

We'll begin the business meeting with a moment of silence.

Thank you.

Counselors, are there any announcements?

Yes, I have one.

Thank you.

The Jefferson School is located at 233 4th Street, Northwest.

Do we have any recognitions this month, Madam Clerk?

We didn't have any proclamations, but if you all have anything to recognize.

Thomas, can you please read the consent agenda?

before we get to, well, actually, we have the reading of the consent agenda, but just not the voting on the consent agenda.

And so as part of it, we open up the hearing for people to speak on the consent agenda item, and then we vote on it.

But will we still be having community matters comments on the consent agenda?

Yes, it's here.

It's been offered as part of the mayor's script.

The city attorney still has to reconcile all those various comments and bring that back so we did not opt to make any changes based on the discussion until you have a chance to look at what he comes back as the proposed, you know, adoption or recommendation of all your items.

Avon Levy Property for Future Development, $4,181,000 Second Reading.

Is there anyone who would like to speak on the items just listed on the consent agenda?

You want to make sure that they're adequately addressed.

and after looking at our budget forecast, this is going to be a while before that money is available, but we'll be engaging with our community partners, hopefully adjacent localities and definitely the public on what that will look like, but I'm sorry ma'am, please proceed.

Do your mics turn up at all?

Well, we'll ask them to do what you're hearing, so thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We appreciate everyone who's here to speak, but how it typically works is you raise your hand and then the mayor will call on you.

Thank you.

Yes, ma'am.

Thank you.

Any comments from Councillors?

No.

No, if not, may I get a motion to adopt the consent agenda?

Move for approval of the consent agenda.

Mr. Sander, is there a report from the city manager's office?

I was going to say tomorrow, but that's

It's a little late.

I've already been given the work to do.

I think that's been the first time in over three years.

Yes, sir.

Can you give me just a second?

Yeah.

No question.

And I'll go back just so everybody can see the others too.

Alternative field study works.

It gets its own slide.

I think this is fantastic.

And we'll get to work with staff to make sure that they are ready to bring those items forward.

I appreciate this.

They can plan to come based on what we have, and this will eventually be published on the website, and we'll just make the edits from there so that everyone can see it, and they can anticipate what's coming out.

I noticed some of these are on Saturdays.

I didn't realize that I had the dates wrong, so I'll fix that.

If they do need to be on Saturday, as long as they're in the morning.

These are your regular work sessions, except the two that I'm going to talk about in a little bit.

Okay, thank you.

You can look at that and pose any questions that may come up from that, but I did put that in the packet and we will post that on the website in the morning as well.

It's part of the agenda, so it's already there.

series of work sessions coming up over the course of this month to help me prepare what will be presented as the budget recommendation for me on the 5th of March and then the series of work sessions to follow that where council gets to then start to consider whatever adjustments, changes, or additions they may want to consider.

The 5th of March is when you come to us?

Yes, ma'am.

Is that slideshow in our agenda?

I'll make sure that we get that uploaded, and I'll send it out to you in the morning.

I'm kidding.

I did think about being a United Nations ambassador.

Each speaker will have up to three minutes to speak.

And company.

We're here on behalf of our grandchildren, your children, and all future children.

Not everybody can make a fool of themselves.

Oh, just wait, you'll see.

Thank you so much.

Okay, so the next one is Bruce Glasgow, are you part?

And for each diesel bus you authorize, just remember that's the

Long.

Go electric.

Thank you, Mr. Koch.

Thanks.

Please.

Thanks for your time.

I got some of it.

today telling us basically that so if you weren't taking notes as she was talking you can look at your email.

And we also got two previous emails about the same subject as well, Murray and Josh.

Thank you, thank you.

Thank you very much.

comments for this time and will now have action items and the next item up is Laura Hildebrand will introduce an item for public hearing.

Good evening, Mayor, Vice Mayor and Councillors.

Good evening.

and I'm available if you have any questions.

If there's no speakers for this, is there any discussion from counselors on this topic?

We're letting people have a road, but there's natural gas in it just for the benefit of the public.

Okay, thanks.

And when was this gas line and road put in?

They're the highway department to take over this.

Um, this is like if this development was being proposed today, and we were moving forward with new road and new street and new utilities, would be this right?

It's usually at the request of what the development is doing.

Okay, so it's not an automatic policy from us that we always put gas lines?

That's right.

Do we have to have all four out of five or something?

If that motion were made and seconded and passed by a vote of four to one, then that would have the effect of dispensing with the second reading.

Is there any time need to do that?

What?

It just seems cleaner to me to move it to a consent agenda.

Lauren, did you have any timing matter?

We'll just update.

I would move that we waive second reading and approve it tonight.

Is there a second?

I'll second it.

Yeah, same thing.

It's the Dunlore Park subdivision.

Counselors have any.

If there's no discussion, I'll take a motion.

Yes, I would move the approval of the ordinance for quick climbing, certain utility easements in the public right away from Marin Court, Barrick Street within the Dunblore Park subdivision located in Albemarle County, Virginia with the with the notion of waiving a second reading of the ordinance.

Further discussion?

I would just like to note that we, or ask, can we, if the developer requests gas lines, we can say no, right?

Okay, great, thank you.

Thank you.

Currie Rainey will present.