Planning Commission Meeting   3/9/2021

All righty, we are ready to re-engage.

I don't know if we have a council forum.

I can't see based on the way the thing is laid out.

Who's here?

I'm here.

Right.

Councilor Hill is the Councilor.

Yes, we are, sir.

Councilor Warner, let's go ahead and begin.

So the first item on our docket is CP 21-00002.

This is a comprehensive plan amendment to the current comprehensive plan of the 2013 plan.

The item is the Star Hill neighborhood

Community Vision Plan.

The area in consideration is approximately 48 acres and includes the city yard, the historical residential neighborhood, the Jefferson School, and all the streets that are adjacent to the area.

Keyword, this is a vision plan, vision being the key word here.

This is not a small area plan.

The vision plan is intended to provide a set of principles that will help us in decision-making as it relates to the area involved.

It does not give us a detailed maximization of the available zoning or does not give us a detailed land use planning, but only it's a vision that helps to guide decision-making.

The other things will come a little later.

What we've been asked to do is to recommend to council whether they should approve with amendments or deny the vision plan.

And I'm not sure if Mr. Acapuna is taking the lead and then tossing it over to Ms.

Yeah, that's Mr. Chair.

Good evening and thank you for the overview.

Councillors, I'm going to provide

overview of the staff report and how the process started.

And then I will turn it over to the CEO of New Hill Development Corporation, Yolanda Harrell, and then she can introduce her associates.

On November 18th, 2019, the city council, after receiving the

to draft a small area plan, passed a resolution to transmit the plan to the Planning Commission for review and consideration.

On December 20th, planning staff reviewed the plan and then determined as a result of the scope of work that the plan did not contain all the necessary

Land use components to warrant adoption of the plan as a small area plan.

So it was agreed that the plan would be advanced to the Planning Commission and subsequently to the City Council as a community vision plan.

On August 11, the draft of the plan was presented to the Planning Commission.

The Planning Commission reviewed the plan, provided some guidance and comments, and

The consultant went back and then updated the plan.

So what you have before you right now took into consideration the feedback received by the consultant from the Planning Commission on August 11, 2020.

The plan is consistent with the several goals of the comprehensive plan.

and includes community vision and guiding principles necessary to guide the implementation of the plan.

What staff is asking the Planning Commission tonight to approve the attached resolution to amend the 2013 Comprehensive Plan to include the Star Hill Vision Plan?

The consultant team is here.

Again, they have a short presentation.

And I will turn it over to Yolanda Herrera, who is the CEO of New Hill Development Corporation.

Thank you, Mr. Acupuna.

Good evening, counselors, commissioners, and neighbors.

I hope you all were able to enjoy some of this beautiful sunshine we had today, or at least if you'll get a chance to enjoy it sometime this week.

As was stated, my name is Yolanda Harrell, and on behalf of the community, neighbors, and partners that participated in developing this plan, New Hill Development Corporation, LISC, Floracane, and RW Ventures,

We would like to say thank you for the opportunity to once again come before you to discuss the Star Hill Neighborhood Community Vision Plan.

Since you all have had the opportunity to review the plan, we wanted to use our time to cover the major themes and of course the envisioned outcomes.

So let us begin.

Next slide, please.

In short, the question of who benefits from the Star Heel vision plan, it's the community.

Next slide, please.

This plan intentionally centers the Black community, not to the exclusion of others, but rather to intentionally, the intentional inclusion of us.

The plan specifically looks at opportunities to increase the street-level presence of sustainable, well-capitalized, existing, and startup Black-owned businesses.

We've envisioned co-ownership opportunities, industry-specific accelerators, and addressing the financing gaps, which means friendlier capital ranging between the anywhere from the $50,000 to $200,000 range.

Next slide, please.

This plan also imagines future housing options across a wide range of affordability to include rental and ownership opportunities.

Whether you're a first-time home buyer or a voucher holder or someone looking for the next phase of housing along their financial growth path, in this plan, we have demonstrated how those opportunities can and will exist.

Next slide, please.

This plan explores how to build upon the African American Heritage Center's tremendous work of curation of local history and art, moving it beyond the doors and into the built environment.

The plan elevates and centers the Jefferson School City Center and the Jefferson School Foundation's desire to sustain the Jefferson School, to enhance its vitality

and Importance as a cultural, educational and community resource.

This plan also speaks to the need for gathering spaces where folks can connect or just be, where they are empowered to congregate and co-create, build and own and innovate and learn.

The community has envisioned a culturally distinctive neighborhood with not only financial, but also social accessible community spaces and activities.

Next slide, please.

So as we mentioned earlier, this plan envisions

what housing possibilities could look like in this area.

Through the engagement process and the examination of the existing community assets, City Yard by far offers the greatest opportunities to address the housing needs.

While City Yard represents a genuine opportunity for new affordable housing as part of a mixed use development, Star Heels existing residential neighborhood must be sustained and strengthened.

This plan is committed to encouraging that homeowners in Starheel can afford to stay in their homes, that measures are taken to alleviate vehicular and parking pressures within the neighborhood, and that residents have a strong and active voice in Starheel's continued development going forward.

So how much housing is going to be created?

Next slide, please.

The plan looks at what can be done immediately, which is creating housing on Brown Street, thus shoring up and strengthening the integrity of the existing residential neighborhood.

This can be done while we explore other opportunities in the larger plan.

Through the subdivision of City Yard in the immediate, you could see at a minimum an additional 10 to 46 units of new housing to include new home ownership opportunities for first-time home buyers.

Next slide, please.

In the larger parcel, there are more possibilities available.

Now, what we have proposed is simply a vision of what could be done considering the existing easements.

In the pre-development phase of this property, that's where the exploration of options with the community and city will occur.

But if we just look at

What is proposed in this vision, our city could gain upwards of 250 additional housing units, not to mention the additional office and retail space.

Next slide, please.

Based on the proposed vision, this slide shows a possibility of what can be done with City Yard.

Next slide, please.

So what does this mean for our community from a jobs perspective?

Well, let's see.

Next slide, please.

Based on the current vision proposed in this plan of what could be built on City Yard, this plan could create a considerable amount of job opportunities, upwards of 1,400 jobs.

Some of those jobs would be during and some of those would be after the construction process.

But not only will it create jobs, those jobs will translate into revenue for local small businesses,

which of course translates into tax revenue for the city and of course let us not forget about the additional tax revenue once the area is built out.

Next slide please.

So what has been added since we came before this commission back in 2020?

Well, we have addressed one very important aspect of what makes this community and the life of this community so very special for many.

And we've also included one big idea.

Next slide, please.

Since our last meeting, we were able to meet with leadership from First Baptist, Ebenezer, and Pilgrim Baptist churches to understand more about their hopes, their dreams, and concerns for the future of their church and the surrounding community

which has been included in this latest iteration of the plan.

The resounding top two themes of concern we heard were around repopulation of the church and parking.

In this latest edition, we have suggested a minimum parking allocation of 50 spaces for First Baptist Church.

As I know, you are very much aware there is very little onsite parking for First Baptist.

Additionally, Main Street will lose parking spaces, and without a parking plan, this church's very survival is at stake.

Currently, the church rents 50 parking spaces for Sunday services.

Should and when the Amtrak parking lot become home to new construction, taking into consideration this is currently the main reliable parking available for the church's congregation,

An allocation of spaces for the church is absolutely necessary.

Growth of the residential community was deemed very positive by the churches because it presents an opportunity to address the repopulation concerns.

Pilgrim Baptist has a monastery school in the works, and First Lady Cooper was thrilled at the possibility to support additional families with the convenience of an early childhood education center within walking distance.

We have also included some of the history of the current churches and history to remind us of the churches that were once present.

Now, however, we have received some additional information and documents over the last couple of days that has helped to inform more of that history, which we will address.

We will work with Ms.

Jane Smith and the Heritage Center to ensure we have an accurate depiction of the local history in this area.

Next slide, please.

And finally, the big idea.

As my partner Shelly would say, if the mind could dream, what would it do?

Well, there is an important opportunity to restore and strengthen the connections between Star Hill to the broader network of neighborhoods from West Haven, 10th and Page, to Rose Hill, to the downtown mall.

That's what the pedestrian bridge offers.

Other ideas to consider as we plan the future of this area and the future of our city.

Could this provide us with more connectivity from neighborhoods to the downtown area, creating more opportunities for safer mobility for our pedestrians?

And through connectivity, can they also be works of art?

So I'll end with this.

This vision of a star-heel area community whose future growth is guided by a commitment to racial, economic, and social equity, we will create a neighborhood identity rooted in African-American presence and prosperity with real opportunities for the Black community to foster ownership of property, commerce, and culture.

Excellent.

So let's do this a little different.

Let's start from the right and go to the left.

And then after what every commissioner has got a chance, we'll just kind of open it up for questions from all the commissioners and even council.

Questions.

You'll get the chance to pontificate later, but.

OK, good, because I, and so

My question is also a concern or something that I think might have been valuable to have in here.

Is that something I should bring up now?

So Ms.

Harrell, thank you for the presentation.

and I noticed that there is a mention of the Main Street, West Main Street Historic District in the appendix.

And it seems to me it could possibly be considered as one of the economic strategies also by noting that

Most of the buildings that are in the Star Hill study area on this part of West Main Street are contributing members to that historic district.

And with investment tax credits, there is available about 50% of whatever is invested in these historic buildings to rehabilitate them.

And to my mind, that accomplishes a couple of things.

It's an economic advantage to those who do that work and own the buildings, but it's also a way of ensuring that the existing fabric and, importantly, the historic fabric of the community is preserved.

So I just wanted to point that out as an opportunity that I would just suggest that you all consider.

We had some comment from the public, former counselor Kathy Galvin, discussing the project.

And one point that she focused on was the connection between Star Hill and downtown, which I agree is absolutely crucial.

Absolutely.

So one of the things that, you know, as we were going through this process, obviously, we look back at some of the history and met with a number of people just kind of talk about what past plans and, you know, when the downtown mall was originally built.

What was some of the ideas that it had in mind in terms of connectivity all the way out to the neighborhoods.

However, those things weren't realized.

As we look at this plan.

One of the things that we tried to do was to

Look at centering, kind of creating a public square that centers the Jefferson School, but then bringing that square across the street over to the downtown mall so that you can see how this area can all connect and flow together.

We even included calming traffic patterns.

at some of the major intersections so that we could have a better sense of pedestrians as they are attempting to cross the roads.

Of course, we know all too well here in our city how significant that can be, especially with the number of accidents that we've seen just with pedestrians trying to cross our streets.

And so we wanted to make sure that we added those calming traffic patterns so that, again, that it encourages connectivity

and encourages people to walk.

We talked about opening up the tunnel that leads between 10th and Page neighborhood and the Star Hill area.

Of course, that tunnel does sit on City Yard.

And so in order for that tunnel to be open, you would have to open up City Yard.

And then we also looked at the abandoned

or the unused rail spur that runs along the backside of the community as a way to, again, help promote connectivity between the communities as well as to the downtown area, giving pedestrians a safer way to travel to be able to encourage us to see more of

a community that were not in these isolation spaces from each other, but that one neighborhood can flow gently into another neighborhood.

Yes, thank you.

And on to Ms.

I don't have any questions at this time.

I also had some questions about the traffic calming measures.

I mean, there's so many options now, a lot of different communities have been very creative.

Okay, I know that's a large infrastructure investment.

But that is probably the best way to

And so that was the last slide of our presentation.

And that's part of what we added as our last big idea.

Mr. Yates actually brought that up in our last meeting.

And it was something that we had considered when we were doing this.

And we thought, well, should we put that in there?

And so we were really greatly encouraged when a number of folks

said hey what about an overpass and so we did put in there ideas around as we think about the built area and as we think about the future of this area what would it look like to have these beautiful pedestrian bridges

No, we didn't.

I mean, again, this is a vision plan, so it's designed to give you the idea of things that can be done so that as we're thinking and as we're planning this particular area, as it gets developed out, these are things that should be taken into consideration.

And so the pedestrian bridge does it speaks to the idea of this would be a great opportunity in this area because not only does it serve as a means to help connect us to the downtown area better and safer, but it also can, you know, serve as a marker as an entry point as you're coming into that area.

It's also been used as a means of being able to convey information in other cities.

And so this is just one picture in the plan itself.

Yeah, no, you just answered my question that it would be a major entryway, gateway feature of the city, so it would need a lot of creativity.

Thanks and good presentation.

I guess I'd like to continue on the talk of connectivity and thinking a little bit less about the kind of longer term or large scale vision of the bridges and more about kind of the street level and maybe near term easier wins.

I know last time we talked about how in this area there are a lot of demand paths of kind of like

dirt trodden through like median and lawn areas where people need to get from A to B. And right now there really isn't any sidewalk or pedestrian infrastructure to get there.

And thinking about, or I guess my question is, have you guys given any more thought to how we can kind of formalize those into real infrastructure?

The one by the corner of the Omni lot,

and then again at 4th Street at the corner of the McDonald's lot are the ones that really come to mind for me because that's where I walk most of the time.

But both, you know,

in order to make those actual infrastructure and accessible and compliant, which probably requires working with the property owners and then where they connect to, like the crosswalks.

In particular, the one at the Omni,

I think it has no lights and it goes right into a driveway with no sidewalks.

Absolutely, and we actually speak to that inside the plan where we are, where we suggest some of those same intersections that you're speaking of where there's an opportunity to, and we demonstrate in there, we put some examples of how, just how you can either use pavers and you can use art so that you can really brighten up those intersections to, again, to really

Just really kind of train the traffic to be more observant of pedestrians that are coming through that space.

One of the things that we also talked about like is along Commerce Street because right now, like when you go down Commerce Street, you don't really have sidewalks or you know it's not really a pedestrian friendly street.

We even talk about like how could you potentially

make that even more of a vibrant space?

Because one is also the entry point to the African American Heritage Center.

So like, how could we make this more vibrant and encourage more pedestrian traffic through that area?

Putting in pavers and adding sidewalks, those kinds of things could really help to reorient the way we think about that space.

And again, at the major intersections, we do talk about

Just, you know, we can use paint, we can use pavers, but we really need to highlight that space so that as people are coming upon them, that they're really thinking about the fact that, hey, you know, this is where pedestrians are most likely to be.

Let me make sure I slow up.

Cool.

Yeah, I love that idea.

That sounds great to me.

I guess my other question,

In terms of kind of the relocation of the city yard, which it seems is like something of a prerequisite for a lot of the larger goals here.

Like, have there been discussions, maybe there's more questions for staff about, so I really love the idea of kind of like shaving or squaring off the corner to create that land on Brown Street.

And then there's some talk about kind of relocating in the administrative building, but for the

the industrial parts of the yard.

Have there been plans and consideration of what it will take to move that?

So when we were going through this process, one of the things that we were aware of

was that there had been a study that was done years ago on the feasibility of relocating the city yard

to out to Avon Street.

And so unfortunately, during this process, we were never able to really see the study.

So we can't really speak a whole lot to the study itself.

However, part of the reason why we suggested the subdivision of City Yard is because that portion that could be added to the existing, to expand the existing neighborhood of Star Hill, that particular portion of City Yard

It's mostly, it's just parking lot.

It wouldn't really pose that much of a inconvenience in our opinion.

And I'm sure others may disagree.

If you were to subdivide that piece off, while we're working on the larger pieces,

of redevelopment of the larger parcel of land.

So that's how you can get that early win in.

You can also, what we show is that you can create two streets.

You can have one row of housing right there along Brown Street, another row of housing behind it.

And then like a little small multi-family that could go down based on the topography of the land in that area.

But what that also would do is that it would allow us to be able to open up that tunnel as well

that connects the 10th and Page and West Haven communities to the Star Hill community.

And so right now, while we're figuring out the larger piece, then you can go ahead and get some housing to help address some of the housing needs that we have in the city.

Now, as it relates to moving that land, that's one of the things I think that once we get to a place where

We have our city staff back in at the senior level secured.

I think that's where we can begin to have those next level of conversations.

Because when we started this process several years ago, when we started, we were having this conversation with Maurice Jones.

So, as you can imagine, there's been a few iterations of city managers since then.

And so for us, it's more of like kind of

Once we get to a place, you know, when we started it with him, it was around, well, let's think about first what we could do before we get into the steps of like, how do we move city yard to another place.

And so that's how we came to, you know, to do the vision for this particular area.

It was starting that process.

So now we have a vision.

Now the next step says, okay, so what would it take?

And I think, you know, this is a great moment and opportunity to look at other cities that have done it.

You know, one in particular, you know, Greenville, South Carolina, they moved their city yard that was in the heart of their city by a river.

And they've moved it, you know, out to their county space.

It costs them about $26 million to do it when they did it.

Obviously, you know, prices are different between the areas and of course in the

post-pandemic or during this pandemic, prices are really different.

But that kind of gives you some idea of what it could potentially cost in terms of moving.

But one of the reasons why very early on we brought in partners like LISC and like other foundations that we've had conversations with was to talk about how could we support that?

Because our vision when we started this process was never for this to be something

that became the sole burden of the city to figure out.

That's where the partnership comes in, where we work with you and we bring other partners to the table that do this all around the country to help figure these things out, not only help figure them out, but also help bring the financial resources to bear to make it happen.

Cool.

That sounds good.

And I guess I'm out of time, but

Real quick, if Chair Mitchell's okay with it, what was the deal with the study?

I'm not sure.

We asked for it, then it was never provided to us.

Gotcha.

Okay.

You're welcome.

Ms.

Following up on that, I also read that there was an environmental remediation study approved in fiscal year 20.

Personally, I haven't seen any remediation reports.

If there is one, it wasn't sent to NDS.

It has to be at public works.

and we have a new public works director, the previous public works director, Paul Obadofa and also the assistant city manager for operations.

He's pretty in the middle of the whole discussion.

So like Yolanda said, I think after the COVID-19, the new city manager, we have to,

perhaps pick up where everybody else left, and then continue with also the new public works director.

Okay, well, it sounds like we could probably run that to ground pretty easily.

If the $300,000 wasn't spent, we can be sure it doesn't exist.

I had I think just one question that and then my other questions are more sort of to pose to Planning Commission staff, but I was curious if you could speak to impacts to the vision plan, kind of and how they relate to whether West Main is or isn't carried out in full.

I know one of the things I read was about a proposed parking structure in the park of Star Hill, which just seems

Let's not do that.

And if that isn't carried out in West Maine, then obviously that's not a conflict.

Well, you know, our suggestion was, please don't give up that park.

Because there's very little green space.

I mean, that's really the major green space in that particular community there.

And part of what the community talked about was, well, if we had to give it up in order to support parking, because there is a huge pressure on that particular community.

The streets are very narrow.

And because of just, you know, the growing

area, and what they're seeing is that a lot of people are coming into their neighborhood and parking.

And so some of the things that we suggested was like, we've got to have some enforcement in that area so that the, you know, folks should be able to park in front of their own home, or at least near it.

And then also, that if you were to, you know, give up the park, that you had to have another park someplace else.

So don't give up that park until you get a park.

If city yard comes available, then you create another park in that space.

Also, the fact that the West Street main scape was going to get rid of 32 parking spaces, again, that was going to further drive the needs of that particular community.

And so part of what we thought about was when you look at the tray of parking for the Jefferson School,

that original parking deck was supposed to be three levels and of course when they were doing that particular renovation or that addition it was post the you know financial crisis of 2008 the real estate crisis and so there had to be some cuts made and so what they decided to do was just make it a two-level garage so it has the ability to support another tray of parking

Sure, thanks.

One thing I just remembered, and Jody's point about rehabilitation tax credits at West Main, I believe that Star Hill is eligible for listing, as a district, and so I think that's certain

I think that would make some of those structures potentially eligible for the Rehabilitation Tax Credit Program as well.

I was going to say that you know what we did as we looked at the various strategies of things that could potentially be done that's kind of woven throughout the body of the vision plan.

In there we talk about different ways that things can be financed and you'll find some more of that stuff in the

Yeah, great.

Thank you.

Yeah, I mean, I guess thinking more along the lines of questions.

I just got a nuts and bolts question in the slides.

You used the term majority affordable a couple times.

I was just curious, like,

What exactly that meant?

Absolutely.

I mean, when we we thought about this, our goal was to try to go as deep as we can, could in the AMI's is, you know,

and also looking at what else was happening around in our community.

And so in order to truly make this into a mixed income community, go as low as 40% AMI up to your market rate so that one of the new things that they allow you to do with LIHTC is that you can do the income averaging.

And so with that, as long as it averages out to 60% AMI, then you're in,

you're in compliance with what you are able to do.

So we thought about when it comes down to financing and how do you pay for things, because our goal in doing this was to make sure that we created housing along a spectrum, not just at one particular phase of someone's financial path, but to make sure that there was a way for individuals to be able to grow along

That financial path and if they wanted to change house than they could.

Yeah, thanks for that.

The other question is kind of question and comment.

I was also thinking about the Star Hill Park and noticing that city parking lot that abuts it.

Kind of just the idea that you have like, you have kind of this like, publicly owned,

I didn't really see that in the plan.

It's kind of a big idea or anything.

I don't know how much you guys thought about that as kind of

like another kind of big move in that space, given the public ownership of the property there, if the parking that's in the parking lot was just deemed a little too political right now, I don't know.

So we have a section on reimagining Star Hill Park.

One of the things that in talking with the neighbors and during the, you know, either the engagements or front porch interviews was the fact that, you know, they didn't want their green space to go away.

But we also went talking with some of the community members of the churches

that had once upon a time had like after school programs, and they would bring the youth over to the park, that there's nothing really there in the park, you know for to really create gathering in that park and so

Right now, some folks that have pets, they kind of use it as their little dog park, but that's pretty much it.

You've got two benches that are in that park.

And so our goal is to say, let's reimagine this.

Let's really turn it into something that's usable, that really encourages gathering.

One of the neighbors from the Star Heel community, she talked about how frustrating it was that there was no place for her to go and just sit and have a conversation.

If she walked up the main street, then she

would be at someone's establishment.

So she would have to buy something in order to just be there and to sit and have a conversation.

Or even if she walked further over, like there was just no places really for just to be in that neighborhood where you can go outside and just go and walk and sit and enjoy the day.

And so that's part of what we're saying to envision with that particular parcel is to really rethink that part because it really could

All right, are there any other questions from the commissioners?

Yeah, so I just wanted to add with that 2015 parking study for West Main, I think the idea wasn't actually to build the garage over the park, which I agree would be crazy.

It was to so that like

There's like the public parking lot by the park and I think another private parking lot kind of if you swing around the old Albemarle hotel.

I think that was the site they were talking about but I think either way it didn't make a lot of sense because just because of the shape of the site and we've seen with the one on

on 7th and Market that you really want a big square site for a parking garage and not a weird U or L-shaped lot.

So I definitely like the idea of programming the park better.

And I guess I did have a question about the

The idea of kind of adding extra trays of parking for the Jeff School parking garage.

So it sounds like at least in the immediate term, the big demand for that parking would be for kind of the local churches, especially First Baptist, which is pretty parking and train.

But I would think that most of the demand for parking that actually parks there now is

You know, stuff at the Jefferson School and is mostly focused on weekdays.

And I wonder, like, what is the utilization of that garage on Sundays when First Baptist would need it?

And is there an opportunity to potentially maybe sublease that space or those parking spaces to churches without necessarily having to add new garages and then

Maybe in the longer run, you know, as you have this private redevelopment in place and opportunities for parking where they might not want to build the parking into their own structures, where they could finance the extra decks if they need the parking off site.

So when we first were having this conversation around what could potentially be done for that parking,

What we were looking at, and again, this is part of this, is having conversations with folks that work at the Jefferson School Board Foundation.

It's the need of that particular area, but not just thinking about the current need, but the future need.

And so actually that particular garage is a little further away from First Baptist, it's closer to Ebenezer Church.

And Ebenezer, they're working, they get,

They have most of their parking on some land that they own right now.

But they still struggle with parking as well.

And it was also looking at the fact that if parking spaces went away from West Main Street, and how do we help to create this opportunity for people to not park in the neighborhood that don't belong in the neighborhood, but to rather, you know, just walk a little bit further,

and Park at the Jefferson School, you know, that was part of what we were thinking about.

And also, at the time the Quark wasn't built, it was under construction and knowing that, okay, so what does that mean?

They're going to be using the Staples parking lot for their parking to support their hotel and

that tends to be overflow when you have several events going on at the Jefferson School.

So parking is gonna be a big concern.

And of course, if they get a party going on over at the Quirk, there's all sorts of opportunity where parking is gonna become such a huge constraint in this particular area.

So the idea was really to think about, let's make sure that we're planning ahead and thinking about the vitality of this particular area and all the vibrancy that having a new hotel in the area brings,

And of course, all of the programming that happens with the Heritage Center and other things that happen.

Gotcha.

And so just to clarify, so there's like two decks of parking now.

So if the new ones would be 105, is it 210 spaces on that site right now?

Yes.

OK.

So that makes sense to me.

So yeah, I mean, I guess again, you know, something I'm thinking about is like, can we get that new development or, you know, like you said, a lot of the demand maybe comes from the hotel or other offsite, you know, developers.

Well, our goal as we think about everything in this is that there should always be the thought of public-private partnership and how do we collaborate so that there's not just one entity

Soly responsible for trying to make this all work, but to think about how do we work collaboratively to make sure that these things can happen.

And so once we consider who's in the space, I mean, you've got the co-building that's going up, there's all kinds of opportunities for partnerships and who could potentially chip in to help this become a reality in the future.

Any other questions from the commission?

All right, then I'll ask council if they've got any questions for the applicant.

Ms.

I had one, a couple of questions.

The first I think was touched on a little bit before, but maybe to sort of amplify on it a little bit.

I'm interested in the,

the extent to which Star-Hill interacts with and or would in this new design scheme would interact with West Main.

Part of what's attractive to me about the West Main streetscape is the plan's discussion of placemaking.

And

I am not conscious right now of there being any

place-making going on in that area.

I mean, the one place I can think of along the Star Hill portion of West Main is the commercial space around Mel's.

It's a place that people go.

It's a node in a sense, although an architect would sit there and probably say, no, that doesn't qualify as a node.

But it's a place where people gather.

Do you have a sense of other ways, other places along that four or five block area where Star Hill butts up against and intersects with West Main Street?

Absolutely.

So one of the things that we speak to in there is the idea around pocket parks.

To use some of those streets where you're very close, the buildings are very close together, and it's kind of like a one-way street where you could create a pocket park there, or pocket parks in between the buildings.

And again, that gives some opportunity for the residential community, or just people that are coming down Main Street to have a place to kind of sit and pause.

And even looking at

One of the things that we talk about in our Placement Making section is to take the art that exists in the history, local history, and bring that more out into the community so that it's not something that just resides in

inside a building, but it comes out onto the street where you can really start to have, you know, markers and things like that that helps tell the story of the history of that particular area.

One of the thoughts in the streetscape proposal was that there would be clusters of trees on a wider sidewalk where people might gather and gather in the shade.

And maybe there'd be some chairs there.

Maybe it would be right outside of a restaurant or something like that.

The notion of using an art feature as being a highlight or a point around which people might gather

is sort of intriguing to me.

Absolutely.

And one of the things that we looked at, Ms.

Douglas from the Heritage Center, she was really, she just has such a great vision around art.

can be done, especially along, you know, the walls that face the front of the Heritage Center, right, that are just kind of these very, you know, kind of bland, commercial old walls, but you could, they could be beautiful canvases that can be then turned into this wonderful works of art, you know, being able to use local artists, young and up and coming artists, but just a way to really be able to tell the history

Anything from Councilor Payne or Councilor Hill?

No, I don't have any specific questions.

You know, just the bigger questions similar with all small area plans, I think is just what steps are needed to turn it into reality.

In particular, I'm definitely interested in a clear sense of the dollar amount of investment that would be needed from the city, even with public-private partnerships in order to

You know, turn some of this into reality, particularly the City Yard site, you know, is a difficult site, which will require some significant amount of remediation.

So just a clear sense of what that dollar amount and investment from the city would need to be and, you know, what city assets are needed.

So Mr. Payne,

Thank you for your comments.

One of the things that, again, that we've done, just kind of woven it throughout the document itself, is just the sequencing of events of what things should happen first, second, third.

We don't get deep into the pricing, because again, without having the true ability to understand what the original feasibility study said, it's very difficult, you know, it was difficult for us to kind of speculate, but we could speculate on what could be built,

But I think that there's lots of opportunity through grants and those were some of the things that we explored in terms of ways that remediation could be covered.

Also in the environmental report that we received during this process that was done several years ago, that the initial study shows that there was no significant reason why housing couldn't be developed on this particular land, that most of, if any remediation that needed to happen would need to happen more towards the front side of the city yard area

which in what we envisioned would have more of your commercial and your retail space in that particular area.

But some remediation was done to my understanding when the garage for the Jefferson School was built.

So there is probably some that still needs to be accomplished.

And I think that there's definitely a lot of state level or federal grants that can assist with that.

And of course, our goal would certainly be to like, let's sit down and really, you know, pencil out what are the next steps.

We did, before you came to Council when we presented this back in 2019 for Council then,

We did speak to what are steps that council could take to help in the immediate that would allow for us to start to see this vision come to life.

And some of those things that we've talked about here today, like the subdivision of the land, which allows for us to be able to go ahead and get started, to be able to start adding to the housing stock now.

We also talked about the street calming measures that could

Those are things that really helps to show the community that the efforts that they put in to helping see this vision come to life are being honored.

And with that, I think Mr. Rice, we are ready to open it up for public comment.

Thank you, Chair Mitchell.

Yes, if you'd like to address the commission on matters concerning the Star Hill Neighborhood Community Vision Plan, please click your raise hand icon.

Or if you're joining us by phone, press star nine and you will be called upon in the order of hands raised.

And you'll have three minutes for comment.

And our first speaker is Jehu Martin.

Jehu, you are on with the commission.

You'll need to unmute your mic, Jehu.

I just unmuted, I think.

Can you hear me now?

Yeah, welcome.

I'm sorry.

I wasted your time, but it's only a quick question.

I think the whole project sounds terrific.

And just in terms of money and finances, how much has the city spent so far?

If there's not a breakdown now, sometime in the near future breakdown, how much would be spent in the future before revenues come back and things like that?

Because the city needs a lot of things.

This is one of them.

and just some curious cities already spent some money in this area.

I'm just curious as to what else needs to be budgeted, let's say over the next couple of years to make this happen.

We are not in work session mode, so we're not going to be able to get into a back and forth dialogue and get through everybody.

Okay, and there's always an answer coming and something to look at, because that would keep the project on target, I think.

It makes sense.

Okay.

I'm sorry, I was muted myself.

Mr. Krebs, you are on with the commission.

Welcome, Peter.

Peter, you're muted.

Thank you.

Thank you, Hans.

You can hear me OK now.

Thank you.

Internet spotty.

So I'm so excited.

And this is something that we've been looking forward to for a long time.

I think a big congratulations to Yolanda and our team are in order.

My boss is always reminding me that this stuff doesn't happen by accident.

Great communities don't just make themselves

It's really important to get in front of the huge forces that drive development and change communities.

We as a community get to decide what kind of place we want this to be.

And this is what that work looks like.

We're not revitalizing a community.

That's such an important thing that this project acknowledges, but actually supporting a vital community that's there.

This is Planning Commission, so we're thinking a lot about the good built environment elements.

I love the connectivity, tying neighborhoods to surrounding resources, taming certain streets, getting rid of blank brick walls, transforming the rail corridor, penetrating the city yard, all kinds of good things.

But I think it's also really important and knowing how Yolanda and her team have been working is that the physical piece is only half of what they're talking about really.

This is truly economic development in the way that I love to see it, which really starts with the community and the residents and their stories and their ideas and their visions for entrepreneurship.

It's appropriately black centered.

I think that is so important.

Like if I were on planning commission or council, job one would be trying to figure out how to keep the heart of Charlottesville, how it has been.

And so this is a real, you might say down payment or a way to start locking in a vision that is one that is right for our city.

It's about people, their histories, their dreams, and that's what really makes this city.

So this is just so great.

You know, Hosea said that this is a vision, and this is just one piece of a vision, but it is that, and it's one that's worthy of the heart of Charlottesville.

Congratulations and counsel, give them the resources they need to make this vision come to pass.

Thank you.

And next we have Kathy Galvin.

Kathy, you are on with the commission.

Kathy, welcome.

Okay, can everyone hear me?

Yep.

All righty.

Well, thank you.

Wonderful comments from the public.

Thank you and thank you, Yolanda, for a great presentation.

Thanks for the opportunity, Chair Mitchell and planning commissioners.

So I'm going to just reiterate and underscore the five reasons I gave eight months ago as to why this vision is so important.

It hasn't gone away.

It's only gotten enhanced.

So first, the plan celebrates Star Hills Historic Residential Heart and the Jefferson School.

and it calls out the redevelopment potential for the city yard, the Vinegar Hill Shopping Center, and the mixed use corner at Preston Avenue and 4th.

All of this promotes a sense of place while guiding future investments in people and places.

Second, the plan provides a vision for redevelopment not by one developer, but by one community most impacted by development.

It reclaims, reimagines, and reuses the land that we have squandered.

Third, the plan addresses the injustice of Vinegar Hill in part by establishing, quote, a visible and tangible place for the incubation of new businesses linked to Charlottesville's black business networks.

And it calls for an anti-displacement tax fund program.

It is a step towards repairing this scarred cultural and physical landscape.

The current 2013 comp plan provides no guidance on how to protect Star Hill.

from Market Forces governed by a universally discredited zoning ordinance.

The plan will serve as an interim safeguard for these vulnerable neighborhoods.

Thirteen months ago, Council passed a resolution.

It's time to adopt this plan.

So turning parking lots into public places enclosed by black owned businesses and homes and physically connected to the downtown as shown via the public plaza on page 75 and the Preston Harris Innovation Hub is described in text and diagram on page 54 is bold.

Replacing auto centers

Autocentric, equity-blind, one-size-fits-all zoning with one that promotes walking, affordable housing, Black wealth creation, and respects Charlottesville's beloved Black neighborhoods is bold.

Reconstructing the once walkable blocks lined with Black-owned homes and businesses of Vinegar Hill, cleared in 1965 to make way for super blocks dominated by corporate chains is bold.

So please, please endorse this plan.

Send it to council with your full 100% endorsement.

And then we will see, just like we saw with the Fifeville neighborhood, that you'll be edifying the community and putting back faith in the fact that government can actually get things done.

But it starts with a plan.

It starts with the vision.

And then when you have that, you'll have the guidance to guide development

guide the kind of development and guide public and private investment.

So thank you very much for the opportunity.

As always, thanks for your service.

If anybody else would like to address commission during this time, please click your raise hand icon, or if you're joining us by phone, press star nine.

All right.

The public hearing is now closed.

Right.

Let's just begin some deliberation.

The only, the only thing I'll reiterate, and I think it's been reiterated by many of you is that this is not a small area plan.

It is a vision plan.

It will iterate and iterate and iterate, and it will become a small area plan eventually, but this is a vision that we're, we're making a recommendation on.

Thank you, Chair.

First off, I want to thank New Hill Development for coming back with a better plan than was presented in August.

I am so pleased and I know the community is to have the core anchor institutions of the African American churches

recognized and acknowledged and made part of this plan and folded into the strategies.

This is a much stronger plan because of it.

Thank you.

I just wanted to say one thing about parking.

We talk about how parking on Main Street is going to be

stressed in the future if the Main Street development happens or when it happens.

But I can assure you it's happening now with the increased development along West Main Street.

All of a sudden, when the Blue Moon Diner opened for Sunday brunch, parking really

became unavailable for many of the parishioners at First Baptist Church.

So that's only going to increase as more and more development happens along West Main Street and that area revitalizes.

So we do have a serious parking issue that needs to be addressed.

It's a smart plan.

It's sensitive to the community.

It's thoughtful.

It has a lot of details from opening up tunnels for pedestrians to thinking about parking, to thinking about pocket parks.

I'm very, very supportive of it, but I'm also fearful.

I'm fearful of the Star Hill historic residential neighborhood.

I drive through there and I see those small bungalow houses, wonderful houses, resources, and I think about

development happening and legs getting under this vision plan and thinking about the

development pressures on these landowners to sell these small houses and build bigger units.

My standard concern, I want it now.

Do we have a sense of timing on the small area plan and implementation?

That'd be a question for Alex.

Yeah, usually once the plan is adopted by the city council,

We start referencing the plan and then in terms of implementation, we let other city departments that have vested interest know that the plan is adopted so that they can review the plans and then work some of the practical implementation projects into their work schedule in terms of funding and scheduling.

But one of the big items there, the city yard, which is about 10 acres, the new city manager, we have to bring that to his attention if he's not already in the loop so that once he hires an assistant city manager for operations, he can re-engage again one more time in the discussion of

everything that has to do with the relocation of that particular operation to a new site and among other things.

But the main thing right now is adoption of the plan, then we take it to the next steps.

And also, as you folks may know, there is a hold on the long-range planner.

So when the economy

improves, and then there is a lift on the freeze.

Then we move forward with hiring that particular position.

And that person, among other things, will also be responsible for coordinating implementation of a comprehensive plan, the small area plan or vision plan, and other long-range activities.

So the first step in the implementation is approval of the plan.

All right.

So the good news is Chip is online and watching and engaged and ready to go.

So hopefully he's taking this all in.

Oh, you done?

Okay.

I don't have any further questions.

Well, of course, I was delighted to see some attention paid to Sunday morning parking.

It is a constant present conversation among downtown churches.

I think church culture and commerce, you know, does not benefit from blue laws and things anymore as it once did.

And so it's not all about infrastructure, but this was a

I was delighted to see that addressed.

And I think a lot of the congregations who've tried to make a commitment to staying downtown would love to see this type thing repeated, or at least the consideration of it and it being spoken about.

I also want to applaud the placemaking process and that whole idea, which is, you know, we borrowed that from other communities that have had success in

in looking at development with nodes and placemaking.

And finally, the connectivity issue and the car-centric transportation.

There is no easy answer to that.

I think it'd be foolish to pretend that cars are gonna go away.

But at the same time, we will encourage a less car centered community if we put a premium on pedestrian and other transit needs.

So I think this is a great start.

Thanks.

Yeah, I don't have a lot to say.

I'd like to echo other commissioners and Ms.

Galvin in commending you guys on all the work you've done.

I think this is a really critical part of our city and it's scarred from the mistakes that planners of the past have made, often deliberately.

and Maliciously.

And I am glad to see that we're starting the process of undoing those rocks.

I have some minor things.

I'll probably follow up by email.

There are things like typos and whatever.

I would like you guys to take a look at that graphic on page 19.

where I think what you find is that in the city, things like Class B apartments can reach much deeper levels of affordability than it says there.

I don't think it's 2200 and change.

for a Class B apartment in the city yet, and even for new ones.

And I walked every block of Star Hill as part of reviewing this plan.

And I think what I saw was that the process of gentrification and redevelopment into upscale, large single-family homes is well underway, whether through renovation or teardown or just changing hands.

And so,

I think that really provides an impetus to get some urgency to the affordable housing efforts outlined in the plan.

And I really like, again, the easy win of new homes on Brown Street.

And I think what we also see is that there's already, you know, a pretty mix, a big mix of housing forms in the neighborhood and that's reflected in the plan.

And so, you know, as change happens, I'd like to see us kind of embrace those housing forms that are most affordable naturally.

Ms.

Great segue into my echoing concern about protecting those naturally occurring modest and older historic houses, which, you know, of course, we'll be hoping to look at as we move forward in the comprehensive

in the zoning rewrite.

I was, maybe I sort of posed this as a kind of thought exercise, which is for these small area plans that are, small area and vision plans, I'm thinking of Cherry Avenue and now this Star Hill, how do we take these into account as we move forward in the comprehensive planning process and keep them, you know,

What informs what?

Are we thinking about these very recent and deliberate plans as we address items within the comp plan update?

And if we are doing so, is that equitable to other communities that have not had the opportunity to have recent small area plans or vision plans?

And how is their input?

you know, up to date and recent.

I think Alex said that there's some long, we're sort of paused on long-term planning and so it doesn't sound like there's any future vision plans or small area plans.

So my question is more of like a process month for us to think about as we move forward, but

And another thought is, is something we talked about in our pre meeting about the, you know, to ensure affordability of those new units on Brown proposed on Brown Street, I think it would be, it sounded to me like the city would either need to own those lots and, and through a land bank or land acquisition program, or

Heavily incentivize affordability via a subsidy, or else you'll probably see new empty lots available, you know, snatch up pretty quick and not become affordable.

So we want to try to think of that as we move forward in the zoning.

But just want to commend the, applaud the New Hill and, and the Starhead community for its visionary thinking.

So Alex, or Jenny, I think Jenny's on as well.

Yeah.

Once a planning commission recommends and city council approves, it becomes part of the comprehensive plan, you know, and the staff has discussed

and we continue to do so with the consultant handling the comprehensive plan updates.

We have several small area plans, 29 Cherry Avenue, Star Hill, Fifth Street corridor study, Rivanna,

River Corridor and a few other plans that they need to take into consideration in updating the comprehensive plan and then crafting the zoning rewrite.

So there we take the action that Planning Commission takes tonight and subsequently by the City Council, our consultant will take those into consideration in updating the comprehensive plan.

So it's going to be aligned.

I wouldn't say I have any groundbreaking thoughts.

First, what's already been said.

I think there's all good feedback on the plan, and it's a very exciting idea for this part of the city.

The idea that you take something like the city yard, which is kind of a, I don't want to call it a black hole, but something that like people don't really focus on.

And it's right in the middle of the city and just kind of turning it on its head so that it really becomes this linchpin in the middle of the city to create all these connections and provide all this housing and jobs and, you know,

So, Mr. Landrum, may I invite you to make a motion?

I would be glad to, but you're going to have to bear with me until I find it in my packet here.

I may have a motion.

Oh, please, Lyle.

I'd like to suggest that we approve the resolution in the packet, starting with a resolution of the Charlottesville Planning Commission recommending adoption of the Star Hill vision plan.

Whereas, is that adequate?

All right.

Is there any further discussion?

Ms.

Sure.

Ms.

Dow?

Aye.

Ms.

Russell?

Aye.

Aye.

unanimous.

Congratulations.

On to the next step.

And thank you for that was, that was a great presentation.

You guys, you guys did incredible job.

So thank you for your work.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for having us.

And from the, from our team, we appreciate you inviting us to be able to participate tonight.

You too.

Do we want to take a five minute break or do we want to keep going?

I see yes to five minute break.

All right, five minute break and we'll be in recess for five minutes.

And then we've got a special use permit.

Five minutes, Mr. Rice.

Ready.

I think we are ready to re-engage.

Do we still have counsel?

Yes, we do.

Michael, Heather.

Oh, yeah.

We're good.

All right.

And is Ms.

Creasey back?

Yes, she is.

OK.

Well, that's great.

Are you guys ready?

OK.

All right.

The next application, next thing on our docket is an amendment to a special use permit that we approved a little while back.

It is SP21-00001 and this is for the Harris Street Apartments development.

The address is 1221, 1223, 1225 Harris Street.

The applicant is requesting an amendment to, again, a previously approved SUP.

In the previously approved SCP, we allowed for a mixed development development.

So they had residential units and they had commercial space on the ground floor.

We also granted them the right to build 105 units on the property.

So that's 43 dwelling units per acre.

So that's what was previously approved.

The only thing they're asking is to add 15 more units.

So that would take them to 120 units on the site that we're talking about.

So that'll take them to, again, 120 units and 50 dwelling units per acre.

So adding 15 units.

That is correct.

Good evening commissioners and councilors.

As Chairman Mitchell stated, this is a special use permit request for a special use permit or an amendment of an existing special use permit.

The process for amending a special use permit is the same as granting a special use permit.

So no real difference in the process that we are going through on this property.

The property is 1221 1223 and 1225 Harris Street.

That site currently contains a commercial building that is fronting on Harris Street and a residence on Harris Street and also contains the building that is known as the Habitat Store.

The Habitat Store is not intended to be impacted by the project that was previously approved.

The building will sit on the two properties in the front, but for the purposes of calculating density, they are allowed to incorporate it into the site.

and use that acreage in terms of calculating density.

As Chairman Mitchell stated, this application was previously, the special use permit was granted for this property previously that allowed up to 43 dwelling units per acre.

The applicant's request in front of you this evening is to increase the density permitted on the site from 43 units per acre or to 50 units per acre.

which would result in a net maximum gain of 15 units on the site.

It's currently approved for 105, maximum 105 units.

The request before you is to increase it to 120 units total maximum.

This application, when it was previously reviewed, some of the questions that have been brought up by the public were brought up then, one of them being traffic, as we noted in our staff report,

The intersection of McIntyre and Harris Street is of concern to our traffic engineer now.

It would need to be monitored as a part of this project.

It is going to be monitored as part of development in general in that area, particularly as previously constructed space leases up.

So that intersection also with Allied Street there, it's kind of a weird intersection because of the topography and the four points coming together in kind of an odd configuration.

So the traffic engineers already noted that.

This site, obviously, its impact would have to be calculated along this.

There is also, I know some concern came up about other modes of transportation in this area, particularly pedestrian access to the Shanks Branch Greenway and McIntyre Park by nature of that.

The city is already underway with a, they're not under construction, but they're under planning in the planning stages of constructing a sidewalk adjacent to this property.

that would connect with the sidewalk going down in Allied and kind of connect it to the rest of Harris Street.

So that is coming soon and will probably most likely be constructed prior to this building because it's further along in the process.

That project has been coordinated with the applicant for this project.

In analyzing the increase in density, a lot of the same metrics that we used for the original special use permit still apply here.

There is considerable parkland within walking distance of the site, both McIntire Park and Shanks Greenway.

It is walkable to the downtown area and also to the increasing amount of commercial space and commercial uses along the Allied Street property right down the hill from this.

They're all under common ownership.

So there have been two residential buildings built at the bottom of the hill along that cul-de-sac of Allied and also the rehab of the

Old furniture warehouse that is now being used as commercial space.

In fact, they just announced a tenant for a restaurant use in their restaurant space that they had constructed in there.

Some other concerns that were raised, one is tree canopy.

And as I noted in the pre-meeting, the tree canopy regulations are set by our zoning ordinance.

They do need to comply and show compliance with those regulations as a part of the site plan process.

So that will be covered during that process.

Also, their traffic impact, at least the trip generation, will be a part of that site plan and there could be potential for if a traffic study is warranted by the traffic count, it would be done at that stage of the development.

And I know the applicant has been told to be prepared to discuss the affordable housing that was previously approved on this site, the conditions that were offered by the applicant and approved by council.

So they can certainly discuss that in some detail.

The other item that's out there that it isn't really referenced in the staff report because staff felt it wasn't really germane to the topic tonight.

But I do know Chairman Mitchell mentioned it.

is the Board of Zoning Appeals.

A variance was requested and granted by the Board of Zoning Appeals for this site and that really pertained to how height would be measured on the site.

So the applicant

The way our code reads, the frontage along Allied Street counted as part of measuring height.

And so they really didn't get the benefit of the topo in this situation because of that frontage on Allied, which sits far below Harris.

So I believe the applicant's request was related to the uniqueness of the site.

that the way, and kind of offered a way to measure height that would allow them to implement the building that they did propose to the Planning Commission and the City Council, because in reviewing it further, city staff had determined that our definition of height and the way we measure height would not have permitted the building that they proposed, even though it's below, even though it complied with all of the conditions in the SUP.

So the condition of I think 1B is the highest elevation point of 520.

The issue here was the question of, you know, the building can only be a certain number of numerical feet tall.

And based on our height definition, when you factored in Allied Street, their height on Harris exceeded that number.

So that's where the BZA came in.

That was really a definition question.

And the variance goes with the property, so it's granted.

And because it related to the size and shape of the building, it's really not under review this evening.

What's under review this evening is what can they do within the confines of the building as it was presented in the special use permit and as the variance was granted by the BZA to build.

So with that, staff has no real reservations about the request.

It mirrors what was previously approved by city council, including all the conditions previously granted.

So I'm happy to answer any questions you have about this.

Is a reference to a site plan.

The supporting drawings dated December 11th, the applicant did update those and there might just be some miscommunication with staff, but we'll make sure all the dates and the attachments are correct and all the conditions are correct.

I think that's it, that the site plan exhibit in condition one will probably need to update that date.

But we'll make sure all of that is, that we're referencing the proper plans that have been submitted.

Right, I'm still a little, I just text you about this as well.

I'm a little bit confused about

The recommendation on page 12 and that saw 1B again.

Is that even relevant anymore?

I mean, should that be in this?

That's not my take on it.

My take is this was, once again, condition one, like we said in the pre-meeting, was really intended to memorialize the drawings that we received

back in December 2019, and what the planning commission and city council saw in the consideration of the special use permit.

I don't think anything, so the applicant's intent was always not to exceed that level.

The problem that they ran into was when they then spoke to zoning about the drawing that they had.

and said, what's the height?

How do you measure height on this site?

Because it's such an odd site in the way it's kind of been put together.

Our determination was that

And so how many feet above sea level does that six-story block take them?

Yeah, the BZA's approval enabled that building to happen.

So 520 is based on the SUP drawings.

It wasn't, yeah.

The issue that came up after the fact was zoning was not, felt that the zoning ordinance didn't allow them to build what they had proposed.

Right, so this is a non-issue.

All right, let's begin with UVA.

Ms.

I don't think I have questions for staff.

I have questions.

Well, we're going to open up to them at least.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

No questions for staff.

Ms.

I don't have any questions for staff.

Okay.

Ms.

Solliot?

Any questions for staff?

Excellent.

Very clear.

Thank you.

Right.

The applicant is up.

And Chris, are you representing the applicant?

All right.

Can everybody hear me OK?

There you go.

And is it, Brian, are they pulling up the presentation?

Okay.

Great.

Great.

So, good evening commissioners, counselors, Chris Virgilio from Woodard Properties.

I'll keep this, keep this fairly brief.

As Brian noted, we've been discussing a project that does have an approved SUP for six stories and 105 dwelling units.

We are asking for the 15 extra units.

And on the next slide, included just the site plan and some project totals.

The project totals now 120 residential units, 170 parking spaces, and 5,000 square feet of commercial.

and I included the vicinity map here just to remind us that it's a part, that this building will be a part of McIntyre Plaza and these residents will be steps away from supporting all the hundred small businesses and local businesses down at McIntyre Plaza.

So we see that as a huge positive to this project and the increased residential density that we're asking for.

So on the next slide,

I highlighted some floor plans here just to show you where the project is now.

The red is commercial use.

You can see in the top left, we still have commercial use on the allied street level frontage and also commercial space in your bottom left ground level along the private access drive.

that would face the Habitat store on the backside of the building.

And then the blue is parking and the green is residential.

And I do want to remind everybody that the yellow arrows indicate entrances to the parking garage.

We've designed this building with no internal ramping, so we have on-grade entrances to

each level of parking below the structured parking that's below the building.

This allows us to most efficiently use the space inside of the building for all uses, parking, residential and commercial.

So the next slide shows level 450 in the top right is the level that's about on grade with Harris Street.

You can see we also we kept commercial uses

on the Harris Street frontage.

And then above that we have the five stories of residential.

And the bottom right is the top story of the building.

One note, one change I wanted to bring to your attention is we did slide that amenity space to the front of the building closer to Harris Street so we could include a few more residential units on that floor, which I will point out, which I highlighted on the next slide in the massing plan.

So if we take a look at, I guess you can see it best in the bottom left, you can see that rectangular portion at the top level of the building is what I was just describing as the added residential dwelling unit space on the top floor.

And then we also added the net of about 10 feet in height off of Allied Street from the massing drawings that you saw on the previous application

So the next slide, you can see these changes again in the elevations on the next slide here.

And that is it.

If we go to the last slide here, the project overall hasn't changed much.

We still think it's a great project for Charlottesville.

And I just want to

Remind everybody these aren't luxury apartments.

They're going to be economically priced units for Charlottesville workers.

It's providing housing that's close to the urban core.

And we did agree with city council, and we are committed to providing the five affordable dwelling units in the building.

That's it.

All right, Bill, any questions?

No, I'm here.

Yeah, no questions.

I will let Rory ask his question about the affordability, because we sort of

had a similar question about better defining that.

Your presentation clarified a question I had, which was sort of in the what way is the building facing?

And, you know, forgive me, because I wasn't on Planning Commission when this was first reviewed.

So some of my questions are not even really germane.

But I am

I'm disappointed in that this building will essentially have its back to Harris and it seems like it will just be parking at that street level.

It's hard for me to understand exactly how the circulation is moving around with

Parking and commercial at that habitat nexus seems like it might be kind of problematic, people trying to get to the commercial, but the parking trying to get into the parking deck there, parking facility.

But I mean, there's clearly challenges with the grade.

But my question really was about sort of like,

So, yeah, I could speak to that just a little bit.

We do.

We did try to keep both.

You know, we are considering Allied and Harris Street as to the primary frontages, both primary frontages.

So we consider the building as having two fronts, one on Allied, one on Harris.

Is the frontage on the Harris Street not facing the Habitat?

Correct.

What I'm calling the backside of the building would face the Habitat store.

Between the new proposed building and the Habitat store is the private access drive that runs parallel to Harris Street.

Okay, then I misunderstood your plan.

Okay, thank you for clarifying.

Sorry, I just want to follow up on that.

There's commercial facing Harris Street?

That's sort of not what I see in your levels here.

Gotcha.

Correct.

At the street level on both primary streets in Harris.

OK.

Okay, so I think my most important question is about the affordable housing.

So there's two separate affordable housing conditions here.

I think we discussed this last time, but the agenda and the minutes are not on the website, so I couldn't find them.

So we have five units that are offered to be affordable, and what level either rent or percent of AMI will they be affordable at?

Sure, so we ran the calculation and I didn't discuss this with Planning Commission last go-around but we did discuss it with City Council and we ran the calculations, consulted with John Sales who was the housing coordinator at the time and the calculations come out to actually the building

The development being just below 1 FAR was teetering on 1 FAR.

So we were teetering on not triggering the Affordable Dwelling Ordinance and just being just slightly above it.

So really, we may have not been required to provide any units or possibly like a fraction of a unit, which I would have assumed would have been rounded up to one unit.

So we

We decided, as a company, we wanted to do something more and that's why we came up with the five units and we were offering those at 80% AMI for 10 years.

And in addition to that, we did agree to hold, I think for the first two months, hold a certain amount of the units for voucher holders.

Right.

So that's the second half of my question.

So five units for voucher holders.

But of course, to apply a voucher, there are rent limits on that, right?

They're called the payment standards.

And so for a housing authority that's 90 to 100

And I can give you the words if you'd like.

So 80% of AMI for a one bedroom is going to be $1,500 including utilities.

And then 110% of FMR for a one bedroom is going to be $1,185 or $1,393 for a two bedroom.

So I think it would be close.

Sorry, is anyone else not hearing?

You muted yourself.

Nope.

Yeah, I think,

It will be close with those figures.

We were looking at, you know, in the market rate of somewhere in the range of $1,200, $1,500, $1,500.

Yeah, we didn't.

I mean, that's a good question.

I guess not, no.

We're committed to, like I said, the five affordable units and when we had talked about this with John Sales, he had said this would be something nice to offer if it worked out because at the time there were 50 to 60 people on the waiting list for people with vouchers trying to find apartments.

That was just kind of something else we threw on there.

Well, I mean, of course, you know by new state law that's passed since Since we last approved your project You're not allowed to discriminate against housing choice voucher holders anyway Person have the reserve and hold them for them.

But I

I thought we had discussed it last time and we had come to the conclusion that five units would be at 80% AMI and the others would be at fair market rent in order to make that work.

Yeah, I mean, I guess I am too.

Now you're asking it to me because I know as a company, we own and manage our own housing here in Charlottesville, and we accept vouchers at all our properties.

And I guess we had put that in there just on advice from John Sales.

So maybe it is meaningless if all of our properties accept vouchers already, and this one wouldn't be any different.

OK.

I have one more question, but I can give the other commissioners since I'm out of time.

Good.

Go ahead.

OK.

So in your application,

You're right that there are no existing residents on the property that will be displaced as a result of the special use permit because the redevelopment is permitted as a matter of right.

So, you know, I understand there's a duplex on the property right now, which of course, you can always tear down your duplex and leave it as empty, barren land.

But I don't think that is the intent of that question in the application.

And I see on Zillow that as of September, you had rented out one of the units, the one bedroom in that duplex for $9.25 a month, which is affordable at a little bit under 50% AMI.

The B unit is a two bedroom, hadn't been rented out since 2015 or so, but back then was $800 a month, or at least that I can find online.

That's correct.

One of those apartments is occupied.

Okay.

Yeah.

I mean, like, I think

We're making a trade-off here between one household potentially being displaced and 120 new ones being built.

And I personally think that that probably makes sense as a trade-off.

But I really just don't appreciate the disingenuous response in that application to that question.

Clearly, there are residents on site.

I just wanted to follow up too about the five affordable units and the addition of what's the additional unit requests.

The five affordable units will be in the building.

So the change is really adding a few more units to the building, but we wouldn't change

Yeah, there's no change to the affordable units, correct?

So, Rory, thank you for that question.

That was one of the questions I had, too, about the affordability of the units, and then also about someone being displaced, because we did see in the report that there was a duplex on the property.

And then it was also a little confusing, but I think we've kind of cleared it up.

But I'm going to ask the question again just in case somebody at home may be having the same question.

So in the report, it said that you were doing affordable units, and then also you were offering the housing vouchers.

And so just for clarity, the housing vouchers that you're offering are for the five affordable units.

Uh, no, they were, they were, it was intended to be two separate things.

And in the report, it seemed like two separate things, so I wasn't sure.

So just so we're clear, you're off, the project is offering five affordable units at 80% AMI.

So if I may add there, actually, I think at 80% AMI, the rent is just still too high to apply housing choice vouchers to.

Well, I guess my question to the commission is, and I'm sorry if I'm out of line or jumping ahead of anyone, if that is part of the stipulations of the project,

and they're not going to be able to uphold them.

I'm going to have to defer to Mr. Haluska, Ms.

Robertson, Ms.

Yeah, I mean one of the ways that we look at those conditions is, obviously from a staff perspective, is the enforceability of them during the zoning review and during continued operation of a building.

As the way that condition is written, and I believe I can directly quote it, I've got it up on the screen here,

During the first two months for which the building leases dwelling units, the landowner shall reserve five units for lease by housing choice voucher holders.

So, five units are available for two months.

We obviously have to work with the applicant in their agreement with the city that proceeds a building permit during the site plan process to

kind of flesh out how that complies with our SOP and how that would be monitored and ultimately get the monitoring from them but it kind of harkens back to some of the older commitments we had with

affordable housing at the time when, you know, they were offered and available for, you know, if PHA could provide, you know, a lot of times they would mention PHA, you know, PHA unbeknownst to PHA would get put into a condition.

And then, you know, somebody would say, I've got a house ready.

PHA provided me a buyer within three months and PHA wouldn't have any buyers.

And then that house would become market rate.

So the way that condition is written, you know,

The only other thing I would add as a lawyerly comment is there's a rule of interpretation that says you don't interpret words in a way that assumes that people intend an impossibility.

So one way to read these words is

to interpret them as saying if the five units or if units have to be reserved for people who have housing choice vouchers, the rents have to be at rents that would allow people to use those vouchers.

And so I would tend to say that if I were advising the zoning administrator three years from now from what these words mean,

I would say that it means that the rents for those first two months for those units have to be at a level that would allow people to use their vouchers.

So if that is not what is intended by the applicant's offer, then we have to take a new look at whether the applicant is still offering that

If I could jump in again, maybe.

So thank you, staff, for that.

I really thought that we had gone over this last time.

And that was roughly the conclusion that we ended up at, which I guess is maybe a lesson in getting everything in writing or at least having the minutes online.

Maybe I should have watched the video.

But I feel like part of the confusion here

is just what actual rents are for the kind of abstract concepts of percent AMI that we talk about.

Because if you're talking about your one bedrooms at 1200 and your two or three bedrooms at 1500, it kind of sounds like the market rate rents that you expect to have are lower

than these 80% AMI affordable unit rents that you're offering.

And that perhaps the market rate rents would be accessible to vouchers based on what you're planning.

Oh, let's keep going down the line.

I have questions about time and trees.

Time.

You suggested it sounds like 10 years was the population with the five units proper previously.

I don't know if proper is the right term.

The five units discussed previously.

We've had housing consultants say that 99 years is possible.

I'm interested in your thoughts on that.

Are actually 99 years possible?

Is that high in the sky?

I don't know the real truth here, so I'd like your thoughts on this if possible.

So Chris, that was to you.

Sorry, could you repeat the question again?

Understood.

So 10 years was discussed previously.

We're currently working on a housing strategy where it was recommended that 99 years become standard as an ordinance.

It is not ordinance yet.

For this project or is it

Sure, for this project.

These projects have to meet certain financial benchmarks in order to be financed.

Thank you for that terrible news.

Trees.

We've got a lot of public comment about trees.

Canopy.

Yes.

So I think there is opportunity on Harris Street to provide some trees.

And also, we're trying to figure out a way to provide some trees off the frontage on Allied Street as well.

So I know the building footprint takes up most of the site, but we are working on some ways to get

All right.

Any questions for our council from council before we open it up to the public?

I don't have any.

Great.

And sorry, I do have one more question if I could jump in.

Just a general, what motivated this change with these extra 15 units or 10 feet of height on the side?

And why now rather than back when we originally discussed this?

Sure, sure.

Yeah, I think it was mainly for two reasons.

When we presented a planning commission last year, there were one or two commissioners that had commented or even requested and asked if we could get more units in the building in the same footprint, same mass, same shell.

So we went back and scratched our heads on that and came up with a way to do that.

Also, you know, it's helping

helping us deal with the current financial construction materials.

And wood has gone up four or five times what it was when we started looking at this project a year ago.

Yes, we believe we can.

Mr. Rice, would you open up?

If you'd like to address the commission on matters concerning the Harris Street Special Use Permit Amendment,

Please click your raise hand icon or if you're joining us by phone, press star nine and you'll be called upon in the order of hands raised.

You'll have three minutes for comment.

And we have Linda Goldstein.

Linda, you are on with the commission.

You have three minutes.

I'm on Woodward Road, which is right above McIntyre Plaza.

So I'm quite close to this.

And I was really pleased to hear earlier in the meeting all the talk about sidewalks and trees and things, which will make the complex more attractive.

And I think that's good.

I would like to suggest another way to make things more attractive.

to the neighborhood, and that would be a small grocery store on the ground floor.

It would be a real asset to the community.

I envision a place where one can buy the basics from preparing a meal without having to get into a car to drive to a store, which would help with the traffic flow.

Things like yogurt, vegetables, meat, rice, fruit, and other items of that sort would be very handy to have nearby.

I would frequent such a place.

I know other people who would as well.

And with multiple apartment complexes in the plaza now and homes on McIntyre and in my neighborhood around Birdwood, a well-run market of this sort I think could do well.

and if the items were not priced too high.

So I'm thinking of something along the lines of Market Street Market.

I'm not thinking of a 7-Eleven kind of store.

And I would just encourage the developer to think about that.

If anybody else would like to comment on this public hearing, please click the raise hand icon.

Next up, we have Victoria Metcalf.

Victoria, you're on with commission.

I'd like some clarification of how you plan to respond to the traffic issue.

I just heard vague responses of, well, there will be a traffic study if it's necessary.

What does that mean?

What does that lead to?

What can be done?

And I'll remind us that we are not in a work session, so we won't be able to go into a back and forth during a regular public hearing.

But I will give Ms.

Mr. Rice, anybody else?

Right, then I will end the public comment section.

Yeah, sure, Chairman Mitchell.

So the traffic is a part of the site plan process, which

Our nomenclature here and and glossary terms are possibly creating an issue.

Right now we're reviewing a special use permit and a special use permit sets kind of the boundaries in terms of the maximum densities and maximum heights that a developer can take advantage of when they develop a property.

If this were to be approved, the developer would then move forward with a plan of development which will get into the engineering of the site and a part of the engineering is traffic management, it's access

making sure there's safe access to the site and also looking at the total number of volume of trips that are going to be exiting and entering into the site at what times a lot of that depends on the use of the building and the square footage of the building so the unit count that's in it but also where those trips are coming in and out as the applicant has stated a lot of you know most of the car the car trips are going to be entering and exiting or intended to exit enter and exit off of allied

in that road next to the Habitat store, between this site and the Habitat store.

So there's the question of would those cars use Allied to get out?

Would those cars then go up the hill and use an exit onto Harris?

All of these things are things that are analyzed as a part of a site plan review that will go on in the future.

Ultimately, if there's an unsafe condition in the opinion of the traffic engineer,

corrections need to be made to the plan to make sure that we have a safe condition.

That relates more to the geometry of the site in terms of like turning movements and things like that and sight lines.

The other element of this is there is a broader concern with all of the projects in this area and the impact on the intersection down at the bottom of the hill.

That is something that is on the traffic engineer's radar.

It's already on the radar.

This building merely kind of lights, makes the fire a little hotter under that intersection.

But there's already potential changes that are in the mind of the traffic engineer.

As this project moves forward, it may create a situation where they've got to hasten some improvements to that.

Particularly, I think the one that I've often heard about is the right-hand turning movement from Harris onto McIntyre and the fact that that's kind of tied up.

The width of the road there allows for all of the turning movements to kind of sometimes tie each other up and back the cars up Harris.

So they will certainly be monitoring that.

They're monitoring that now.

They will continue to monitor that.

My guess is this building's not going to go over the threshold potentially for a traffic study but if it does there would be a traffic study.

It would cover very much of what I've already said in terms of you know how much is it going to contribute and what are the conditions at that intersection.

Do they get to the point where we've got to mitigate those with some sort of improvements at that intersection whether it's

You know, better signaling or potentially restriping or something that allows the movement of cars in there not to impede access up Harris.

So hopefully that answers the question.

It's to be determined what actually gets done.

Thank you very much.

All right, we are at the point of deliberation.

Sorry, I got one more question.

Thanks to Commissioner Russell for sending me the, or helping me find the last five minutes.

It looks like there's, last time we actually only had 130 parking spaces in this proposal, and now we have 170, I believe.

So what drives that pretty large 40 space increase in parking?

So that, you know, we have 15 extra units.

We also have, we heard concerns over from neighbors and businesses, you know, about street parking, you know, people from the building parking on the street or in McIntire Plaza.

and we were trying to balance both getting more units in the building and also trying to maximize the parking in the building as well.

And I think we've done that.

We only have 120 units, but some of those apartments will have two cars and they're probably 10 to 15.

Those parking spaces will be for the commercial use as well.

It's apparently almost exactly the same phrase you used last time.

But I mean, I'd say I personally would like to see even more units and less parking.

And I'd like to echo the point you made last time that because you have both residential and commercial in the same building, to some extent that they can share the amount of parking available because they operate at different tempos.

So I know we probably can't add extra units beyond what you've requested this time.

because the hearing has already been advertised.

Sure.

Yeah.

And I think we just just add to that point, you know, we've we tried to you know, there are a lot of areas in the building that aren't livable, that are only good for parking just because of windows and unit layout.

So we've

We really tried to use the areas of the building that are effective for residential dwelling units.

I don't think I understand the affordability component really.

I guess.

Yeah, it's a question.

I mean, it's a question.

I understand what you're proposing, and I guess

I am asking then staff again to clarify, maybe Lisa or Brian, are we able to, will we be able to achieve what it is this, you know, your sort of proffering, I suppose, five at

80% and five available housing vouchers available in the first two months.

Brian's nodding.

I think you're nodding, yes.

Yes, that's the way staff understands it and then as Commissioner Stolzenberg has mentioned several times recently, as a part of the development review process,

we have to if anytime there's affordable units that have been conditioned or offered as in this case there is our agreement that is we actually just got a draft of the the agreement from our staff today to review that kind of lays out the guidelines

And a lot of that is done in so that the zoning administrator, should there a question come up about condition compliance on a special use permit, the zoning administrator has something to go on other than just kind of the vague language of some of the conditions, but actually the city and the applicant work together to come up with

You know, kind of a formal agreement that lays out how this is going to work prior to getting a building permit, prior to any building coming out of the ground.

So, just as I am saying, Ms.

Robinson, let me walk you through the way I think this works.

We have approved and council has approved an SUP for residential and commercial development that will allow for 105 units.

That has already been approved.

What we're looking at is an amendment to add 15 more units.

That's what we're voting on tonight.

If we vote no, then we just simply revert back to what's already been approved with the affordable housing component

in it that's already in it.

We just revert back to what initially existed.

That's right.

I mean, ultimately, it's council's decision.

You all are making a recommendation.

So the additional 105 units and the affordable housing algorithm that exists, that's done.

effectively.

Right.

Although again, as the developer noted, there's some question about whether or not under the requirements of city code 3412, whether or not there would be a requirement for even one affordable unit.

No.

Okay.

So what I want everybody to understand, these are not

proffers, which you can only take in a rezoning.

But what we have been doing with special use permits is taking at face value what the developer represents to you within the application.

And the benefit of having a special use permit approved, the benefit of that to a developer is that

If the developer seeks an approval for a specific development that's been described in an application, then once that development is approved by you, once that SUP is approved, if you then change your zoning ordinance, they can still build the development as you have approved it.

And so what we have been doing is making sure that

As much as possible within your special use permit itself, we provide adequate details describing the specific development that's been approved.

And often within the last couple of years, that specific development isn't simply described as a six-story building with some commercial and some residential.

Most of these applications at your urging are including representations that some number of units will be affordable.

But we've gotten to the point where that term is almost a buzzword that has no meaning.

Under our city regulations that apply to units that you get under section 3412, we have a standard operating procedure.

You all may or may not like what's in there, but it's there.

Those regulations require a recorded written document that runs with the land in addition to any, you know, a special use permit approval

You always say it runs with the land, but it's a zoning approval, so it can be changed at any time.

Something that's recorded in the city's land records is something that bonds subsequent owners of the property, all of that sort of thing.

So when somebody says to you, you're gonna get five units affordable at 80% AMI over a period of 10 years, I don't know if you all understand the administrative structure that has to be put in place

to administer that.

It's not something simple for the zoning administrator to just go magically figure this out.

I mean, in a lot of ways, unless you have a zoning ordinance structure that requires written reports to be given to the city, it will be almost impossible for the zoning administrator short of litigation to get information about what's actually going on in a building.

So this is the long-winded way of saying we have got to get to a new zoning ordinance as quickly as possible.

We've been saying this for five years now.

But in this particular instance, what I will say to you is this developer does own and operate a number of projects within the city that accept housing choice vouchers.

They know how to administer that program.

They have operated some affordable units for many, many years.

And so they, this is a developer who does know how to do it and has experience administering vouchers within the city.

And at this point, while there's some bumps in the road here, I think that certainly

If you interpret the words as written, the requirement for housing choice vouchers, which necessarily comes with a specific rental amount, is certainly enforceable.

As to the other provisions, it's no more or no less affordable than any number of other projects that you've approved with

with things like that in the past.

And just to supplement that with maybe it's maybe more political than I'd like it to be, but I frankly have a lot of confidence in this developer

and this developer's dedication to enhancing our affordable housing portfolio.

And this developer is interested in our low wealth community.

You know, once you get to the point of rewriting your zoning ordinance,

One, another option that's not used now, but will certainly be a possibility in a new ordinance is that one of the options available to people would be to make leasing options or purchase options available to either the city or the housing authority.

And so, you know, down the road, you'll get to a place where instead of having a developer have to administer these things themselves, it may be easier

So if I can maybe restate that just so I'm kind of clear on exactly what's going on here.

So we have these standard operating procedures that govern mandatory affordable units under 34-12, adopted per 34-12G, but because these are offered units and not mandatory under that, or perhaps one will be, those standard operating procedures don't automatically kick in.

So instead we're left with just the wording in this voluntarily offered condition

because it predates us talking about asking developers to voluntarily submit to those standard operating procedures, which include things like reporting requirements to the city.

And so what we're left with under this condition are, it seems to be five units at 80% AMI for 10 years, which will presumably be

administered more or less in accord with those requirements, but without kind of the teeth behind it.

And then an additional separate five units that because of the fact that

the wording of it implies that they will be available for housing choice voucher recipients will be available at rents that you can apply a housing voucher to and then reserved for kind of first dibs for the voucher holders, is that right?

Yes.

Okay, so yeah, I mean, I think my inclination in particular with what Chair Mitchell said,

We already stepped in this one a year and change ago with the first 105 units, and that's kind of done and gone.

And this is for an additional 15 units on top.

It's kind of a no brainer that we would allow it.

So I'm inclined to support it and say that we should approve the SUP, but I would really urge staff and the applicant to consider formalizing those

who also offers affordability offers into

something that makes more sense and isn't ambiguous where we go back a year later and don't know what's going on.

Similarly to how the Thousand Monticello Project a few months ago had much more specific regulations based on those standard operating procedures as part of it.

But I'm comfortable leaving that to staff and the applicant to work out between us and council rather than suggesting that we

Yes.

So, uh,

Hmm.

Would you repeat that?

The condition C says, the commercial space on the ground floor of the building shall be designed, blah, blah, blah, for retail uses facing Allied Street.

That's a good point, unspecified commercial.

Retail might be a little limiting.

OK.

I might recommend that given all of the discussion you've had,

Okay.

And does it make sense to add something there

Maybe a stupid question.

Requiring like notifying the housing authority that those are available so that they're not silently reserved and then held for two months and then rented on market rate.

Okay.

Well then I would like to make the following motion.

I move to recommend approval of the special use permit allowing the specific development proposed within the application materials for SP 21-00001 subject to the following reasonable conditions and safeguards.

The conditions presented in the staff report with the following modifications

1B, the commercial space on the ground floor of the building facing Allied Street shall be designed, occupied, and used for retail uses, and commercial space facing Harris Street shall be in the building.

The rest as specified.

Any seconds?

And we have a motion and we have a second.

Is there any further discussion?

Ms.

Yes.

Mr. LeHindo?

Aye.

Ms.

Dow?

Aye.

Ms.

Russell?

Aye.

And yes, the recommendation goes to council unanimously.

All right.

Ms.

All right.

So we are effectively a wrap.

Is there a motion to adjourn?

I so move.

Raise your hand if you agree.

We are adjourned.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Brian.

Bye everybody.