Board of Architectural Review Meeting   11/21/2023

Are we ready to go?

Okay, I don't have my normal packet, but we also have a reduced agenda, so I'll just wing the, but it's fine.

Welcome to the November meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review.

We have

One item on the regular agenda and then for that item we'll allow the applicant to speak for up to ten minutes and then we will have the opportunity for questions from the public either here or online and then questions from the board

followed by comments from the public and comments from the board and I just ask everyone speaking tonight to speak clearly into the microphones and state your name clearly so those that are following along can hear and understand us and that the recording is good for minutes.

All right, the first item on the agenda is matters from the public not on the agenda or any comment on the consent agenda, which tonight is meeting minutes for September and October 2023.

And for matters, I'm going to invite Eric Gampin to come forward.

I know there was a question that was bounced around by around email, some late notice about brick samples related to the quartz project that's not on the agenda tonight.

Thanks, Brett.

My name is Eric Antman from DGP Architects here in Charlottesville.

We'll be on the regular agenda later for an item concerning the west port site.

This public comment is for a follow-up item for a previous certificate appropriate application for the east site.

and there was follow up, that was about a year ago, there was follow up requested for a BAR review and approval of the color palette for the exterior materials, which I'm prepared to present to you today.

We have a four foot by four foot square sample panel of the brick put up on site on the west side of the levy building that's facing Park Street at the entrance, near the entrance.

So you can see the two bricks near each other in context and a photo of that was distributed yesterday via Jeff Werner along with the other sort of secondary materials that are in that palette.

including the storefront and bullet resistant glass framing, painted metal, and the cast stone sample too.

So all of those appeared in the photograph.

One item which wasn't shown in that is the assembly in the wall, but all of the pieces are there in a proper configuration.

So I've got physical samples of those if you want to see, aside from the brick panel, obviously.

If you want to see any of those, I have them to share.

I understand that probably most of us have seen the email, but only one of us has actually been able to see the sample on site.

The rain today didn't help either.

But one question that I had I wonder if you could speak to is that

I think it was always intended this way, the specification was always written that way so I think it's an artifact of the rendering which is why we do physical samples so you can actually see in reality what's intended.

So actually if you want to, it may help if we ask Jeff to include the renderings from last year.

It may help to walk through that and then the context of where these materials are might make more sense if you're sort of, you might be seeing it for the first time as a new board member also.

So that's helpful there.

Maybe down one more page.

Yeah, there we go.

So this is probably a good place to see it.

So at the first floor level, you'll see there's a cast stone string course that separates a rusticated base below from the first floor wall level above.

So that section there, minus the cast stone, the brick below and the water table and the wall, the phase brick above is what you see in that sample without the cast stone built into the wall.

Then we have storefront on this side of the elevation, around on the entrance side, it changes to curtain wall around the entrance.

And then up above at the cornice line, there's a gray band.

That's GFRC, which is similar to the cast stone.

It's a lighter weight cast stone.

And then at the very top of the parapet wall, there's wall cap flashing, which is painted metal.

And then back to the front elevation.

that is also painted metal the portico assembly here that you see and all of the metal infill panels at the fenestration of the entrance wall that's all pre-finished so not painted in the field.

So does that help everybody orient if we go back to the photograph that maybe I could point out the individual pieces and what you're seeing

the brick panel with the samples above.

Yep, last page please.

There we go.

So, obviously the brick down below, then the first piece is the cast stone product.

The next color chip is a Sherwin-Williams color.

So any of the metalwork, like that cap flashing that gets painted, is that color.

And then the next two pieces are the pre-painted.

finished colors that are applied to the curtain wall and the storefront.

So those three, although they're different finishes, they're all coordinated to be the same gray.

So the actual gray material that you're seeing for the window framing will not be that color.

Yes, it is.

Correct.

So what we were trying for, when you see the photograph of the Levy Building, that the colors of the brick are in this sort of red-brown range and less orangey-salmon.

Both of those are used all over Charlottesville.

So we wanted the colors to be complementary, but not mimicking the Levy Building.

So if there are no other questions, what I might ask of our board is just a straw poll.

If anyone, I know this was very late breaking, and probably all of us would like to see these in person.

Does anyone feel that they can approve this this evening, or do you need to go see it in person?

And I've got the box of samples here.

I don't know if you want me to leave that with Jeff or somebody else.

I can't really leave them on the sample because they're loose and they'll disappear on the construction site.

But this is set up so that if you go to the photo where you can see the levee building in the background,

You were just there a second ago.

Yeah, so here.

You can see that from the street looking through.

We've taken the blue screen off the fence.

So you can see it without having to go into the project site.

I would encourage you not to do that without personal protection equipment, helmet, mask, the works.

Since you brought them, I'd like to see the samples.

What is interesting about the photos is that the gray in one photo looks very blue, which we had a prolonged conversation about, I think, when we approved this certificate of appropriateness.

And then your other photo makes it look gray, so I'm just curious.

Those are the three great colors.

And then these two are the...

These two are the colors for the storefront and then the blood resistance window.

Wow.

This is an entirely different color than both of the photos, I think.

And I'll just bring up one state of this instead of a whole.

Yeah.

So that's kind of all.

Oh, awesome.

Yeah.

Anybody else?

The way the break appears in this photo is more accurate to its actual color.

It's redder here.

In the other picture that's in the parking lot, the lighting was different, and it really looks salmon.

I was the one who drove by in the rusticated portion.

in the rain and late afternoon.

Looks almost like the historic low wall at the front of the Levy building.

It was a great match.

And I know this is for a building that's going to be tucked behind.

Yeah.

And the other thing to remember, too, is that piece of cast stone will be a band between the two kinds of brick.

So they're sort of close.

The differentiation is not dramatic between the lower part and the above.

Correct.

It's the blend.

No.

Well, it's the same color, but it has a different texture on it.

There is a slight, it's a very smooth brick above.

And it's, I don't know how to describe it.

It's a wire cut.

That's right.

Hi, everybody.

You're very loud.

You're very loud.

It's not your fault.

Don't.

And Eric, can you just confirm that you're still planning on the rustication on the base?

No, it's rusticated in the surface texture of the brick is rougher, it's hard to see in the photo, than it is on the upper part of the wall.

But I think just as a point of clarification, there is

They're protruding or cantilevered out bricks in courses.

So yes, there's that rustication banding that's occurring in the detail.

But it's not in the sample panel.

It's also Norman brick and not a regular brick, so it's longer.

Well, I for one feel really good about the direction, and I feel like I know that many will want to go see it in person, but I feel like for me it is very much in keeping with the spirit of the application.

And we understood that.

Just to clarify, this is going to be discolored.

OK.

So the next item on our agenda is the consent agenda, which includes the meeting minutes from September 23 and October 23.

It's on page 8.

I think, page 8, I think of the September minutes.

and it's regarding the sconce lights on the front of the 1938 edition.

Okay, duly noted.

Any other further?

commentary.

All right, all in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed?

Abstentions?

All right, thank you.

All right, the next item on our agenda is the 410 East High Street Courthouse Building South Entrance Alterations.

and Molly.

So this is, that's why Roger is sitting back there.

This is a COA request for the all the Russians at the south entrance to the 1930s

office building at the Albemarle County Courthouse.

You all reviewed, excuse me, in September a series of alterations, rehabilitations to the building and some repairs to the original courthouse building, including the Sallieport on the north side.

and this work at the South Loja, we decided to omit that from that approval and have some further discussion about the glazing within the arches that are in that Loja.

And so there's a series of five arches, remember there'll be landscape changes, bring it up to grade, handicap ramp, and then the five arches on the Loja will be

Glazed, and then on the interior wall entrance into the office building is currently the outside door.

There's a double door there that will be removed, but the frame and transom will be left in place.

And then on either side are currently two double-hung windows.

Those will be

the Mason re-openings will remain and they'll be opening up the brick below and creating an entrance and an egress door on either side of that former double door opening.

And James Zehmer and I met with the design team

back in October and discussed the options for glazing the arches and I think we discussed some of this earlier but the idea was to

One, get the glass as far back into the opening as possible, which certain limitations given the width of the arches, but they've achieved that.

And two, try and glaze them to the extent possible that the glass wasn't what was the prominent element to really get that sort of to dissipate into the arches.

We also talked about the double door

the current double doors and removing them and retaining that transom and the frame and all that that will be left in place and I know I need to make some notes we talked about about memorializing when that dates to so that simply would be in our record.

And then the last piece of this, there are two lanterns, exterior lights that will be installed on the outside of the loggia.

I'm not asking you to...

approve a specific model or type, but you certainly can.

But I think to acknowledge the style and design intent that this is going for something more of that colonial look and not something contemporary or modern.

But I think the samples that they've offered is a

it allows us to get a sense of the style that they're thinking and then as always comes down to what's available.

So this I said a conversation you guys had in September, simply bringing it back because we did have questions and then James and I did have a conversation and just want to make sure that everything that it fits with what you all were hoping to see.

So with that any questions for me and I know Eric is here to answer any questions.

Carl Schwartz asked me to raise a question about the paint color on the courthouse and the office building.

The white paint, he commented that there had been a sort of less stark white and asked me to ask you all to get clarification or if we have a preference or if it isn't an issue.

I think he mentioned that in September as well, so.

Less start, yeah.

So that did come up in the last review and that's really easy to comply.

So when that renovation work was done,

what maintenance work really.

There was actually a VAR, certificate of appropriateness, that has the color numbers in them that was previously approved as a match to what was there before it was painted badly again later.

And we've already approved that.

Yes, exactly.

I think he just wanted to make sure that that was being done.

The only thing I also wanted to offer, I can take you through the drawings really quickly too, but I did bring a sample.

That's also the color of the Sallyport coiling door as well, which was a question previously and we said dark bronze, so now you have a sample to go with the previous comment.

Do you want to do a quick flip through the drawings, Jeff?

Could we, please?

We can just get to the sketch drawings, basically.

We can keep going.

That was all previously approved up until.

OK, here we go.

So new concept, previously we had divided lights, many small little window lights and muntins.

It's now been opened up so that the perimeter

is dark bronze storefront framing and then the center opening has a transom bar and then mullions to get an operable door in the center, which is ADA compliant.

Can't do a double door, neither leaf would be wide enough.

And then on the portico side elevations, left and right, that would be the same window treatment as the flanking windows on the main south elevation.

Let's go ahead and go on, please.

This is the back wall.

So it shows the center opening there with the pilasters and entablature above is the current existing entrance.

So the pilasters and entablature do date to 1938.

It's just the door infill that's currently there, which dates to 1983.

So the millwork is original.

We will not be modifying that.

We're only modifying the 1983 frameless door intervention, keeping the transom plate as it is, but with a blank panel behind it or painting it black on the inside.

So this would be a marquee for notices or other things posted by the county.

The entrance door would be on the left.

The exit door would be on the right.

Not seen here, but flanking the center opening in the same position.

Next drawing please.

So this detail shows the aluminum storefront entrance system installed in the brick arch openings.

So we've brought the plaza level to the left on the exterior, sort of up to the floor level of the new flooring on the interior.

So the brick

Peers as they are go all the way down uninterrupted to floor level with no added base or other work so that your masonry opening is preserved in its current state and then the storefront sits inside that with the framing set as far as it can go towards the interior face just a half inch reveal from the face of brick to the face of storefront framing

so on the exterior you have seven and a half inches or so as deep as we can possibly get that window set back so the shadow line is as deep as it can be on the exterior to sort of preserve that appearance of the void of the opening rather than having a white door and window system installed there and then I think there's a detail the next yeah so this is the detail for the intervention on the back wall

Again, the existing openings are kept as they are.

It's just a new doorframe system set within the openings as they exist.

And then the left drawing shows, back one please, yeah the left drawing shows that sort of blind panel in the center opening.

The next slides just respond to some questions that were asked.

I think I've already covered that.

Let's do a quick flip just to make sure.

Yeah, this clarified that the door leaves are 1983 and the millwork was 1938.

Was there anything else?

Yeah, and then this is just the whole sort of sequence for where that was documented in the 1983 construction drawings.

OK, thank you.

Sure.

I have pictures inside, Loggia, if that would help.

So was Carl's comment about the main door, or the repainting of the doors that were becoming doors?

and I think the photo on the left might, or I'll try on the right, the stark white, the kind of bright white.

The previous certificate of appropriateness application had these arched openings infilled with white doors and windows.

Right.

And it brought the facade forward,

Sidebar kind of thing.

He said, oh, by the way, I know they had painted it.

And I don't remember exactly when he said, but can we go back to the color that was less stark than the white they have now?

And I raised it.

I did ask Eric, but I just wanted to tell Carl I would ask it at the meeting, and we could simply reiterate what we discussed.

The whole, all the buildings, 1938, 1983, all the intermediate editions, there's a full repainting being done as part of this work.

So for all of the frames that are part of this project, they all get the dark bronze?

No, no, no.

That's just in the arcade.

So I understand five arches that are the exterior get the dark bronze.

As the windows are now, the windows are removed.

White frames on what will be the interior door.

But not stark white.

Other questions from the board?

Okay, we'll go to anybody online with a comment.

I just want to thank the applicant for reaching out and meeting with us to go through the details on the Loja infill.

I think they'll address all the comments and questions we had during that meeting about

Verifying the work around the front door as being original and being sensitive to that and also working really hard to especially find a frameless window that'll work in those loggia openings because we've looked at some frames and understandably we need it for the door, but it's great that we're able to achieve a full window in the other openings.

Again, preserving the kind of

Fennestration of solids and voids, which is typical of Virginia courthouses.

So nice job.

Yeah, I agree and I want to also thank Mr. Zehmer for teaching us a little bit about Virginia courthouses in the process.

Are there any comments on the lighting direction?

I guess I have one comment before we get to a motion.

I think all the frame list looks really nice.

I think you're achieving what you're setting out to do.

I guess I'm just wondering about the color.

We see the hand rendered sketch with the mullions and the white for the exterior.

And I guess I'm just wondering inside that vestibule,

If you've got the exterior windows in the dark bronze and the doors on the interior in the white, whether the dark bronze is really going to achieve the kind of disappearing that you're trying to do, or if it was in white on the exterior, if that would kind of blend.

We did the same thing, not with arches, but with mental openings for the Madison County Courthouse.

It's surprisingly effective as a darker color that drops back into shadow line.

And the Caroline County Courthouse, which Mr. Zehmer actually pointed out, we looked at that together and separately also.

And it's got a very similar kind of intervention.

It's very effective.

It's not invisible, because it's a solid material, obviously.

It does receive more into the shadow line and respect sort of the original aesthetic more than the white material does.

Having considered the standards set forth within the city code including the ADC district design guidelines, I move the proposed alterations to the south entrance of the 1938 office building

All right.

We'll call the vote.

Mr. Whitney?

Aye.

Ms.

Mr. Birle?

He's going to recuse.

Mr. Batke?

Aye.

Mr. Zehmer?

Aye.

Mr. Bailey?

Aye.

And I vote aye as well.

Great, thank you.

Motion passes.

Thank you.

A couple weeks ago we did the GPR at McKee Block and you know everything all the footprints seem to be where they they should be and so I've been playing around with trying to I think show you know how do we how do it sorry my screen is really not one

So the idea being, you know, if you were at Court Square, you know, originally there was, we know the one story frame building was there.

We know on the other side of Park Street was the Swan Tavern.

They say it's two story.

I don't know if it was.

We have to figure out whether, you know, two stories with dormers or two stories all the way up.

Then there was we know there was a 16 foot by 16 foot stone jail built near the original courthouse that seemed to have lasted.

in various iterations up until the 1870s.

And then, of course, at some point, we're not certain, but around 1800, we see the emergence of the buildings at McKee block.

And sort of this sort of shows, just again, trying to illustrate

what we think was where and by this time in 1803 the old frame courthouse has been replaced by the brick courthouse which is the back the north end of the courthouse as it stands there today so you know just trying to you know tinker around and you know what I've said before about Swan Tavern but just try to render visible what what it looked like up there and it's

I don't know.

It's kind of interesting how compact and small it was.

But there you go.

There's downtown Charlottesville in the early 1800s, but just no 1930s office building in there yet.

But I'll draw that in the next sketch.

So what?

Yes.

I have a question.

It was, that was the backside and I think it was called Union Street and there were a couple houses on the corner facing west but it was predominantly all facing towards

So it was in the middle of the park, not on the floor?

It was right behind it.

I thought there was a setback.

This building here was moved to Kurtz Square from Milton at some point.

So it's 213 7th Street.

I didn't know that.

and we know the church up there on the 10th degree moved from Fluvanna.

So yeah, this is interesting.

But it's a very slender block.

It's, I think, like 220 feet north-south and only about 80, 90 feet east-west, but the backside of these

Billings would be where Fourth Street is now.

More to come on that, so it would be interesting.

The next thing I wanted to spend some time with, I probably best to spin your chairs around if you all want to come to the other side of the table, or however you want to do it.

I was told 213 7th street

That was built to Milton in 1840.

From Milton in 1840.

Well then, because that other house, that other place was built.

The place on McKee block was moved.

No, no, it's because that other building on Key Block was moved in 1840.

So this is one of those where, hmm, which one is which?

But some of the oldest buildings in town, there's one on Court Square there, Jefferson Street.

There's a couple of much early 1800s buildings, but they're

maybe from when Jefferson was alive, there aren't a whole lot.

And I think I looked at the list once of houses built prior to 1880, 1890.

It's only 100 or so in the city.

And actually, some of that will come up with this discussion.

Or let's see where it goes.

Does he refer to it as a tavern name in that?

Did I stick it in my...

All right.

So let's, let's, let's jump into the fray here.

And so when you guys decided time to wrap up and head home, just just say so.

But what I did, what I handed out is

Well, for both of them, they're both the same, more or less.

It's the ADC district.

I've got West Main Street and the other one is North Downtown.

What I did was I took out of the current guidelines what were the description of the district.

I tried to

I put some samples in there again, just sort of mnemonic devices that as you're looking and thinking, maybe that would be helpful.

And then I also added to show some maps, just to show the development of the urban form of Charlottesville.

The point being is that we don't have a lot of old stuff, so when we talk about the things that were particularly on West Main Street, you know, what is it that we're

What is it we're trying to capture?

What is it we're trying to preserve?

What is it about that street that we're incorporating into future projects as they come our way?

And in some ways it's

It's an easy answer.

In other ways, it's a complicated answer.

And I also, a lot of information and stuff, because I'm a visual person, and the visual clues, they're helpful to me.

I went through an exercise today, and I'll show you in a second, that was really helpful in trying to understand all this.

But listening to the last meeting we had, and Brecht summarized it as that

The goal of reevaluating these neighborhood descriptions, these district descriptions, is not to determine what should go there or what should something look like, but to take a look at what is there and what is it about those districts that are character-defining.

What are the features?

What matters about those?

The point of that, and Brecht said it much better than I ever could, but it wasn't that when someone looks at the guidelines in these descriptions, it's telling a story of that space.

It's not saying, here's what your new building needs to look like.

So then the other thing I did, the long spreadsheets, love my spreadsheets.

I used categories from the design guidelines, primarily from new construction and addition, and then I threw some stuff that popped into my head.

Again, not that everything needs to have a note behind it, but just a way to trigger a thought or an observation or a way to look at it.

And what's really striking is when you say

All right, I'm going to tell somebody about West Main Street, section west of 10th Street.

And I will say it has some street trees, overhead lights, overhead utilities.

It's auto-oriented.

It's mixed scale.

I mean, that's really, I mean, the blank starkness, the empty space on this,

So I don't know what the right answers are, but I think there's, my thought was if this format is helpful or it's a waste of time or the paper's too big, we can do this for all the districts.

I will print out copies and mail them to you and you guys can tinker with them and then we can have a discussion and sort of, you know, almost like a scavenger hunt.

What did you see?

What did you find?

and to just really anchor what these districts mean.

And then one other thing I wanted to ask you, and let me share my screen real quick, and then I'm going to let you guys just have a conversation.

This one in particular seems like it might make sense.

Am I still in this meeting?

We talked about whether the boundaries were correct.

And this one especially stands out to me.

I think of West Main Street going all the way to Bridge McIntyre as the same district, that that's not downtown to me.

Yeah.

That's one of the things I've...

We are going to, that did come up in a conversation earlier about extending it just because it's somewhat confusing to have that distinction between at least West Main and have it come down to the Army or to the courts.

Where's the current terminus?

So let me real quick just ask some questions that would be helpful to me and hearing from the architects in the world here and figure out how.

I mean, these are one of the things we're dealing with in the new ordinance is both stories and measured height.

So there's, you know, five stories or 70 feet.

So but I thought it would be helpful for us to all kind of like agree.

Okay, one story.

No questions there.

two stories there had to throw in my house but you know we all agree those are two stories although this one's pretty cool that's it's about three blocks east of here so oh it's not it's not list or anything but

So, but two story there.

Then I get the little, I never know, you know, is that two and a half?

Is it a half if it's an attic or is it a whole if it's a room?

What makes it a half?

All right, so there you go.

So as we're out walking, making observations, that's helpful to know.

Smith's house, I'd say that's one, two and a half.

So I don't know how many of these upstairs are really full rooms, but that's helpful to see it that way.

We've got some interesting things downtown.

I guess I would call that three story with a

The Firehose Tower, whatever.

I don't know how inside-outside relates to that regard.

I'm just trying to, I'm looking at this more as we have, as we go forth with our homework, you know, that we're all kind of talking about the same language.

And so, for example, here, this is an interesting one because I'm pretty sure these are just two stories.

and then, but here's one that's three.

So this is where, if you said, oh, most of the buildings on the downtown mall are two stories, that, yeah, so it's, make sure we're being clear about that.

I will get to that, I will get to that.

Yeah, I just wanted to get some words cleared up before.

And I think when we talk about verticality, things like that, I know you architects, the design guys, this all is basic stuff, but just kind of for the...

make sure we're all on the same page.

Bayes is always a little confusing to me, but Bayes being the three here on the right, the three openings kind of establish that.

verticality this but there's one here where I said you know we've got some great examples it's in our guidelines about you know the three parts of a building you have to have the foundation the wall and the cornice and we've got examples of that then we've got you know things where I don't know exactly

Maybe I'm being generous calling that a cornice.

So, you know, some of the details to keep in mind.

Actually, this was the bank up there on, you know, the park and, but yeah, just having it, you know, in, I don't know, I don't know, architects, would you call that a foundation or a

I think you know that to also look at streetscapes and you know this is that high street the two blocks on high that I think you know seeing how that things are you know that alignment it's a different also a different streetscape than we have in a lot of places so

And I don't know, also this one where, what's helpful to kind of illustrate, is it helpful to have, you know, are there places where images like this would be helpful, or is that just an A school exercise that's unnecessary?

So you don't have to answer.

I just throw these out to kind of get some things.

Again, going back to the, when we think about Charlottesville, here's the 1877 map.

This is a 1915 map.

Each of those dots represents

10 people.

So kind of not a lot going on here.

So keep that in mind when we're trying to think about our historic fabric.

In fact, here you see the progression of the town.

1888, we became an incorporated city, still a relatively small place.

Then that's useless.

When we're out looking, our guidelines talk about buildings being articulated in the facade.

And these are two buildings where the facades are articulated, but they're just huge walls.

And so I don't know how we incorporate, I think some others in that though, I don't know how we incorporate what's been built

Who asked me the question the other day, now that we've approved something with a COA, does it become a contributing structure?

Like if they wanted to knock down the standard, would they need a COA for it?

I don't know how to, I don't know the answer to that.

The code building is contributing now, right?

Well it is gonna, that's gonna change because we, in the ordinance, it's going to be what is determined to be contributing in the district by district description and in the map that goes with it.

So there's gonna be some work to go with that.

So that, this is also something I had done when we were, you haven't seen this, but this is from a staff report for an insurance corridor project on JPA.

and that idea of what is a typical block in Charlottesville and those are all to scale.

But we don't have, you know, we're not Manhattan, we're not Chicago, we have the downtown and these things that occur organically.

Belmont maybe is the closest we have to an actual layout on a grid but

So when we think about what we're looking at, also think about spatially what's going on with the streets and the sidewalks and the curbs and gutters, and not necessarily what's going on with the building.

Also, not forgetting hedges.

I get questions all the time about plants and trees.

Are there places where

The landscape is important tonight.

It's not just because of Brecht's influence, but there are places where we should say, now this is a defining character.

Stone walls, lots of walls, concrete walls.

Brannock Kerbs.

It's amazing how many steps we have in this town, but I guess that's because we're a town of hills, but different materials, different steps.

We've also got little things we might miss.

I mean, I'm really

I love more and more this lucky seven sign.

It's iconic.

We've certainly learned a lot with the work down there on the sign on Second Street.

And we've got a lot of little details that are

may or may not be important as we're looking at a district.

You know, I don't know.

Isn't that the clown, yeah, or sorry, the elephant, yeah, the Babar, oh, Babar, sorry.

You know, there's also the, we do have a streetscape section and, you know, there's not a lot we can do.

I wish we could get the telephone poles out of the sidewalks, but

again that's a feature when we're walking around and just not not to just look at the buildings.

I think Brecht's been on this work committee about the downtown mall but there's a lot of back of the buildings now the one on the right is over on the corner but there are

places that are within the district and within the public right of way and maybe they need to be looked at a little bit differently than a few sentences to the guidelines.

And I added this because going to West Main,

If you had to say what's prevailing on West Main, it would be the bottom photograph.

Those are historic structures on West Main Street.

That's in the 20s, 30s, and 40s right there.

The images above are some of the more recent buildings.

Does the architecture, does the more recent architecture, should that be informing our guidelines?

Or are those things that happened and followed the guidelines?

Or do we bring them to the table and say, this is what we have, this is part of the character of West Main.

Again, something just to think about and that came up in my brain today.

It was interesting just some of the rhythmic details that you see that you don't know but these columns repeat themselves.

All right, is that something we want to know?

I even thought about windows today.

What are all the different kinds of windows?

I think we're more and more

You know, going to see where these sort of industrial type windows are important.

We've sort of, you know, let those 50s and 60s elements be an afterthought.

Garages and outbuildings.

I laugh about this when you're around here.

Please knock that one down.

And what I'm really, I became really interested in

with COVID and everybody just walk around, but we have some really pristine storefronts in town.

And I think that not every, you know, CHAPS has been completely redone, but there's probably some that really should be maintained and preserved.

Jenny Keller had offered the idea of

You know, going to some of these as samples and saying, you know, can we, you know, how do we keep this one, preserving this one?

We recognize, oh, this is going to change, but we really have some we want to preserve.

So, again, the details that kind of going beyond just the architecture that we want to keep in mind.

that was just how I today was kind of thinking about if I were looking at things and I kept thinking of other things to look at and I that's all I wanted to share that with you to kind of encourage you and and so uh Roger your question I just was um I started out by saying if I had to um

If I were a consultant and somebody asked me to characterize West Main Street, what would I fill in the blanks on?

And that's where this kind of came up with.

There are things in here that, and I don't know which one it is.

All right, so the one from North Downtown.

Believe it or not, this back page is from the staff report from 0 Third Street.

I didn't give you all of it.

A lot of it was summarized in staff report.

But that's what a lot of times we'll do for a new construction is to say, all right, well, what's going on?

What's prevailing in that place or on that street or on that block?

Molly and I can tinker with these, and we've accumulated things over time.

So no, I'm not asking anyone to do that.

But I offered, if there are things you'd like to see, if Breck and I were talking about a venerable neighborhood the other day, I had shown them just a sketch of saying, here's a typical block in Venable.

It's pretty easy to see what's characteristic about it.

What happens if we get a five-story building stuck in the corner of that?

So if there are places you'd like to know what's the height, what's the width, if there are dimensions, if there's characteristics, we can do some of that math and put it together.

really the helpful part from you all would be making these observations about the characteristics and

and seeing things that, you know, I'm not an architect, so seeing things that you all see that you can help Cheri and I see it.

And Brad, you know, what are the, okay, what are the things that Brad, Brad, Kevin, sorry.

Is there anything else in here that you think I could add?

I think it's great.

I think it's above and beyond anything I could have anticipated seeing.

I think this would be really helpful for doing this work.

Actually, I think the compilation of the materials would help our small teams kind of get started

with before going out and then being a little bit more educated about maybe what things to look for when out.

You had asked me, the thought before was, all right, I'll put together some teams and say, all right, each of you pair up and do the following.

Molly and I were looking at it, all right, I got eight districts, I got eight, and we had something else going on.

So I didn't make a decision on that yet, but what I'm thinking is I'll create these for

all the neighborhoods.

I said I'll print them out, mail them all to you.

You can Google car drive, you can pair up.

It's almost, what would be the best way or first I simply say, you know, James, you and Ron, you know, connecting you two for the next two weeks, go do your homework.

I think, yeah.

That sounds daunting.

Okay, I got you.

You wouldn't have to do it as pairs necessarily.

I don't know.

Don't worry too much about that.

I think we still will come back and look at what people came up with.

It's not like those two people would be the only voices.

I also think that

With these two examples, just at a glance, the West Main Street is going to take away less time than North downtown, essentially.

At the same time you have, there's a lot more uniformity

I guess I wonder if, again, going back to, does it make more sense to divvy it up by sub-area?

Well, let me try to break it down, and I get to that next week.

And I think, yeah, it's that, just the more I thought about it, and I really encourage you to go back and listen to the last meeting.

I know it's sometimes fate worse than death, but it was actually a really good discussion about how to approach this and some of the thoughts and ideas.

The onus is on us or maybe it's not the onus or it's the we've got the opportunity to sort of shape this and I think you know for Carl I made the comment to me the other evening that you know the guidelines are in good shape they really need to be edited but chapter one really needs to be

You know, that's where we've got, we can put that work in and establish, as Timmer would always say, what's the preservation goal of this project?

What's the most important thing?

What are the things that we're going to zero in on is the elements that matter?

And we have the opportunity to establish that and present that to council.

What council is going to do with the

The ordinance, I didn't get the update I needed from James Freese, but everybody's just been going a thousand directions.

I think it appears that Council

Everyone got their letter and council appears they're interested in moving this thing forward.

So we'll see what happens at that meeting I guess next week or two.

A lot of the recommendations you all had the night that we talked, I think most of us have gotten into this.

I haven't read through the whole thing a second time yet, but I will.

and then, but a lot of weight is being put on what we do with the design guidelines to address some of the concerns that have been raised about additional density, additional height.

Who gets to say what?

I pointed out that the BAR's always had to make decisions.

There's always been something that conflicts with the ordinance.

But that's why we have the appeal process.

So I don't know why everybody's so

I'm worried that this is something we've never dealt with before.

Now, if you all said, well, I don't think a building should go there at all.

I think that should be a field.

That's probably pushing things a little bit.

But you've done design things that you don't let.

If someone is proposing a 10-story building, the BAR

and zoning limits at the 10 buildings, the BAR has never said you can build a 20 story building.

So, you know, anything you all there's a hard edge that you can't go beyond.

You can't tell someone we forget about the setback.

You can go all the way to the street.

So, so those guardrails are in place.

and if an applicant doesn't like what the B.A.R.

has approved or recommended, they can go to council.

They've always been able to do that.

So I've been trying to push back a little bit that this is suddenly, you know, something brand new.

But it will be much to our

an objective way you can actually speak to an applicant and say, yeah, all right, it fits the zoning ordinance, but it's out of whack with what's actually happening there.

Interesting.

Yeah.

I mean, how long?

I mean, is this like a crazy amount of work?

You get into a rhythm.

And the Google guy, you know, I'm just buzzing around and I, I accumulate.

But this was done when we had zero third street.

So you know, it just it's, and as I accumulate this stuff, I haven't now realized the color might change, but it is helpful now.

Zero Third Street was a unique project.

There was a lot of public comment about it.

And I said, all right, I'm going to look at everything.

So the house, the new house.

So I just said, all right, let's see what's going on.

But what I learned in that exercise was really interesting how many houses

have steps from the sidewalk and then steps up to a porch.

Once you see it, why is that a surprise?

But it's one of those elements that you go, well, that matters.

But yeah, I don't mind doing this.

And Molly's getting it in GIS, where a lot of this data we can start pulling out easily.

Yeah, maybe it doesn't apply everywhere.

But it's super useful when you're thinking about, like, setbacks, for example.

And I said I included the historic maps

I don't know, I just hear all the time, the historic fabric of Charlottesville, what exactly do you mean by that?

I mean the historic fabric on West Main would include Mel's Diner.

Very cool.

So I'm gonna go put this together and stand at attention.

Yeah.

And I'll circulate it.

We'll tell Carl he really missed out.

He was so apologetic.

Like, Carl, I think he'd been in the Planning Commission was meeting like every other day.

You don't owe me an apology.

Well, thank you all very much.

Thank you.

And I'll send send this out.

We have a couple things coming up.

No, actually, as per what I had said last year, I would not like to stand for chair-personship next.

I think I previously informed the group that I don't plan to use the ladder to step up to the chair.

I would be happy

Anyway, I won't stand for whatever that word is.

If asked to serve.

Well, you all can.

I guess I'm just... Happy holidays.

You've been elected chair.

Oh, and I did send to four of you today, make sure you get the reapplications in because Council will be considering those appointments.

Kevin, Roger, have you already reapplied?

Are you Kevin?

Rob, we'll have a conversation with the family.

Yeah, I'd like to.

The application deadline is December 8th.

And then they vote on it the next Tuesday or Monday.

I can't keep track of their meetings.

Well, it's through the end of the year, so you should know.

I do want to say I've never seen it before in the time that I served on the Planning Commission and as the Planning Commission's delegate.

What's your pleasure?

The opportunity is to vote tonight.

I wasn't trying to force a vote tonight.

I think we should vote in mid-December.

Yeah.

The other and I brought up the awards too.

Yeah, I was like, I was gonna put the list up there on the shouldn't.

But you did have a list that you developed the last meeting, right?

And then I just have one that I throw into the mix.

I don't know much about the project, but it's, it was nicely done.

It's 201 East High Street.

It used to be Stedman House.

They redid the porch.

They had structural issues.

I don't have a before picture.

I mean, anyway, and apparently it's for rent as a residence.

They've converted it back to... Please, no more lawyers.

No, no more lawyers on High Street.

There are not that many, actually.

They've gone to the hinterlands.

Anyway, I just thought that was the cool one.

And it was apparent.

I don't know.

They've been working on it for so long.

Yeah.

So absolutely gorgeous.

Oh, cool.

It kept those two buildings and it was very successful.

The other one I noticed the other day across the street, the pavilion there at the old tin whistle, that place has always got activity.

It really just made such great, I don't know if that's architectural, but it certainly made use of that space.

There is a fountain that appeared there, but that's an interesting design.

I'd like to make a suggestion for people to think about.

I think the awards would be an appropriate place to recognize Preservation Piedmont's contributions to reviewing the planning process and I don't know

We don't really have a set name for all the different awards.

Yeah, they've been, the letters and then Mary Joy's detailed analysis of things have been extremely helpful, so I would concur with that completely.

Can I say one more thing about the awards?

I think having some history,

Joan Fenn and I sort of came up with the awards.

Having some history with it, I think these categories are not at all binding.

Like we could make up an award and, you know.

say something and we want to recognize them for whatever.

It doesn't have to fit into these categories.

In fact, I just looked at the Preston-Coiner Award and it's for an individual, which preservation people, it's not.

Last year we did, apparently several people never even got their

I think it's nice when we do it.

Thanks, Molly.

Thanks, Molly.

I don't think I'd share with you all about the city is changing over the lighting in its public lights.

So this is really something I'll credit Tim Moore with pounding and pounding and pounding on us about lighting.

and we'd had something that got added to the comprehensive plan about an overall lighting strategy, lighting plan for the city.

The folks in Public Works were, as part of sort of energy reduction, were working with Dominion Power on some pilot program to change over some lights.

Apparently, I mean, Dominion's really looking to save capacity.

So they're willing to, it's very possible that we could see all of the lights relamped to LED lighting.

And so I've been involved in those discussions.

It's one of those where something we were sort of pushing along in our own,

Lane has fortunately spilled over into the city's entirety.

Well, that's where I'm pushing hard in saying no higher than 3,000.

Mark Schuyler's been saying 27, 200 but there's I think there's also a reality of what's available out there so there are some well we may have to do 4,000 in some places

Ongoing conversation, we'll see.

But I say particularly when it's a light bulb that we're not going to change for the next 10 to 15 years.

Let's get it right.

Let's not just burn up what they've got in the storeroom.

But anything will be a significant difference.

The issue part will be if you have two lights 30 feet apart, or there's three of them, do you need all three now?

And maybe just the two on the ends.

And so we won't be rearranging lights.

We won't be adding them.

So there's going to be some bushing and pulling.

It's a little fuzzy.

If so, you know, you don't want something different on the other side of the street, the boundary of the district.

What are you going to do?

It's like the downtown mall.

Those are actually city-owned lights.

A couple years ago, Craig Fabio and I worked with a guy in charge of the light bulbs and the working boards getting uniform, you know,

Those things are expensive.

I mean, it's like, so they're still, hey, we've got to use this $800 light bulb, but, you know, working to have at least consistent color within areas.

So, so again, just sharing with you all some success behind the scenes that that's come out discussions that that you will all have had.

The other thing is that I have not heard yet, but I expected to know that the mall was on the National Register by now.

So although Birle got on the National Register, they never told me.

So hopefully that'll be something new soon.

I did share earlier the tree commission changed the tree list.

Ginkgo's are out.

Why?

That's the other one I planted a few years ago.

Ginkgo's are kind of, you can make an argument that they dropped crap.

They can switch sexes though.

What does the tree list entail?

The city has, and council adopts it just like our guidelines and its recommendations from the tree commission and we do have an urban forester and some of you have met Steve and primarily what's

going on in the right-of-way, but still what's the overall tree coverage in the city.

Yeah, it's primarily for street trees and public right-of-way.

Where there are ordinances that refer to as choosing from a specific tree list, like for us, it's recommended.

No, it's not a tree law.

that came up in the last 48 hours over on Wirtland Street, 1301 Wirtland, along that east side of the new building.

It's only a 10 foot.

The one next to the... In the old parking lot?

Yeah.

Yeah, I didn't.

Apparently, the people that came before us didn't own the property and they defaulted on their contract.

That long... We saw that three times, right?

Do you mean...

It's where the garages used to be.

Oh, yeah.

On that infill lot that all the neighbors didn't want developed.

It was kind of pushing every lot line.

They weren't owners and they defaulted on their contract.

But it was a good exercise.

I'll confirm.

Good team building.

So this was here.

This is Wirtland Street this way.

diplomatic here so the in the review of the site plan it yeah in the review of the site plan that's right they've come back that's what Brecht said they were here millions of years ago they've come back so the

The city forester reviewed the site plan and noted the Ginkgo's are no longer on the list.

You have to pick something different.

You know, and the letter cycles back to me and the developers saying, what's going on?

The BAR approved this design.

So I've had, you know,

explain, you know, the BAR is not, these are not recommendations.

These are, this is approved and it, you know, it carries weight.

However, you know, if the Ginkgos are off the tree list and not there anymore, and I spoke briefly about it the other day,

This isn't a street, these aren't street trees.

This is really an area they're trying to fill in back there.

So I was like, all right, well what?

I told the applicant Friday, I said, talk to Water Street Studio, ask them to give you some alternatives.

And the other thing that Steve Gaines wanted was diversity.

He doesn't want single species plantings.

And so I told the developer that if they brought me a design that came from a landscape architect on the project and not people saying, I really don't like ginkgo or I don't like sugar maples.

I said, I want another design here.

The ones on water have been beautiful in the last couple of weeks, I have to say.

Gorgeous.

So is every sugar maple in my neighborhood.

Well, we're going to, you know, this is a colleague.

But, and sometimes we do.

ask that if either the species isn't clear, or we may say that they can choose one from the city's tree list, but that's not a requirement of our guidelines.

We do recommend selection from that list, but they don't require it.

Well, ginkgos were on that list.

And they were on it.

No, I wouldn't say it's a city staff getting on the same page, it's like one staff person trying to, I mean that doesn't make sense.

Well, it's sort of the vested rights thing, really.

And for example, in the front of the historic house is that dwarf father Gila.

And you all, that was a specific point.

It's even in the COA of something low that allows visibility of the historic house.

So a comment was made, again, about a single species being used there, and I said,

Let's deputize Brett to have a conversation with this individual.

There's a very good reason for it.

I think it's to make sure we're just we're all having the same conversation.

There is concern about diversity and things.

And I know Steve like looking at the trees in the mall says, you know, a single species, but there's still

This is design.

This is not just building architecture.

It's landscape architecture.

And I just make that clear.

But sharing with you all, if you would like to see the new tree list, remind me.

But I did create, this is what I had a little bit, this is the top is from Wortland Street and that not really a great image of it, but there's an apartment building to the east about 20, 30 feet.

but under the new zoning you can slam a building up to that property line so all of this discussion about different types of trees...

And we don't have very many native species that do that.

I would agree in forestry, but I've probably forgotten all of it.

But I know you don't put a 60-foot canopy in a 10-foot alley.

But I'm sharing this also because as we think about the design guidelines and stuff, yes, the landscape is critical.

But I think we need to say, do you have enough space there for that tree?

She didn't.

Yes, not a lot, but at least one, but I'm not left to see it materialize.

We will know next Tuesday.

Just curious.

One is a lot?

I'm sorry.

Isn't it anymore?

I'm out.

It'd be easy if probably we're all already committed on the 19th.

So maybe it's we stick to our agenda and then don't get into ancillary discussions.

It's a victory party.

Same thing happened to me.

I've always thought those should be limited by time.

No to our preliminary discussions, please.

Well, I think if we just hold it tight, hold a tight agenda, hold a tight schedule, we'll still get through the items on the agenda.

All right, we'll shoot for the 19th.

So moved.

Second.