Board of Architectural Review Meeting   6/21/2023

So I made my dish for tomorrow night, last night, and I got to taste it.

What are you smoking?

Do you have a really, really nice smoker?

I know, I was wondering.

This could be awesome.

I may cheat and just smoke it overnight as best I can.

The problem with my method is if it doesn't get there, then you're like in the oven and you're...

If you have to.

It depends.

Mid-Atlantic, Kansas City BBQ.

Maybe you will be.

It's the big old Montrose barbecue.

Carl, you're a meat eater, right?

He said he picked up pizza at five.

He's been to a meeting, right?

or he's got me unfast out I'm sure

I mean, we are in a public meeting.

So here's my question.

Wow.

So here's my, here's.

Eternity at UVA.

I'm thinking this could be a moneymaker for the city of Charlottesville and application fees.

As much as every application should be seen.

As a standalone application, I do have a feeling...

This one has a precedent setting.

But I kind of like how tiny an area this is.

I didn't see dimensions on it, but I'm familiar.

It's tiny.

Yeah, it really is.

It's kind of a perfect sound.

It's really hidden with the hedge.

Hey there.

Hello.

Have you already started your brisket?

You could decide not to do it.

OK, let me see.

The zucchini look even better.

One thing I do like cheating on though, that I learned from the Oprah-Lemonger website, is you take your chimney starter full of charcoal, and then just put it on the single line right now.

Just use propane to get the chimney starter going faster.

Really?

Yeah.

Just get it going.

Um, a little bit.

I'm going to go for a work project on Friday down in Florida for the weekend.

And we're doing a, I'm glad it's not this week, we're going to, no everybody's celebrating.

A week.

Yeah, in two weeks.

We're going south to north.

I forgot.

I would think that it's continuous.

Well, it is pretty continuous.

Depends on which line you take.

Yeah, and we're hungry for pizza and he's passing around pictures like this.

See, James, the reason I believe in the show finishing is because I tried to get a second round in.

I'll start usually five or six and then go to about...

By three or four... You start at five or six in the morning?

Yeah.

And then by two or three, mid-afternoon, the shoulder will have enough smoke in it.

It won't be done, but I'll take it off.

But then I can get another round of ribs in after that soon.

And I learned to never do it on the day that you're...

It's hard.

But I'm from Kansas City, so...

Oh, Ludwig's here.

What a delight.

John?

It's not going so well, actually.

How are you?

Oh my gosh, look.

Let's see if it passes Carl Muster.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I never wear headphones on, I'm the weird one that's like, but I completely zone out so I don't even know what it is.

The only time I notice something is like someone standing right next to me.

That makes me insane.

I have like this huge space ball, and if it gets invaded, I'm just like no.

I wasn't able to update the rules.

Good evening, everyone.

Welcome to the regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review.

We have our meeting here in person in city space, and we're also streaming live online, and we may have some people attending virtually.

The meeting process is as follows.

For each item on our agenda, the staff will make a brief presentation followed by the applicant's presentation, after which members of the public will be allowed to speak

Speakers shall identify themselves.

Please speak into the microphone so that those online can hear you and give your address.

Members of the public will have three minutes to speak.

First to ask questions, then we will move to comments and public also has a chance to speak for three minutes for comments on the proposal.

Public comments should be limited to the BAR's jurisdiction.

That is regarding the exterior design of the building and site.

After our discussion and before the vote the applicant will be allowed up to three minutes to respond for the purposes of clarification.

So thank you all for being here tonight.

The first item on our agenda is for matters from the public that are not on the agenda or if you'd like to speak to the consent agenda.

Consent agenda tonight is only one item and that's the meeting minutes of April 18th.

Are there any matters from the public not on the agenda?

OK, we'll move to the consent agenda.

The only item, as I just said, is the meeting minutes from April 18, 2023.

Second.

All right.

I'm not sure I need to abstain.

I was in the meeting.

OK, thank you.

All those in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

No?

And one abstention.

Okay, thank you.

Move to deferred items.

This is, before you, it's 180 Rugby Road.

It is a contributing structure within the corner ADC district.

The property, this came to you last month and was deferred as you recall.

The structure was built in either 1927 or 1929, depending upon the record.

It was designed by architect Stanislav Michalski.

for the Beta Theta Pi Fraternity.

It is Georgian Revival with five bays.

It's a two and a half story brick building with hip slate roof and two hip roof dormers.

This came to you in May with a request to

There's some landscaping work to be done that some of it is not, some of it's just maintenance and repair and cleaning up the grounds.

The request for the change are two brick piers at the gate, gate piers, there's no gate, at the front walk, some steps and landscape lighting that'll be installed on either side and some pavers.

And then the primary feature for the discussion is the installation of artificial turf on the front yard of the two sections, each side of the entry walk going in.

And at the meeting in May, you all had asked for additional information about the turf, particularly the drainage.

I don't know, Ian, were you able to get a...

You would ask that the brick pier not be less than 18 or I'm sorry 20 inch by 20 inches and which they that's reflected in design the recommendation that it replicate or not replicate that it respond to the design at the house but not

you know that it that it respect the house so the stone cap has a profile on it that's taken from the the pilaster at the entrance and the brick coursing will be similar to that on the house and with that staff as with last time really no issues with the the elements to this project

But there are those obvious questions about the artificial turf.

All right, it's over there by David.

And I think that our recommendation is, if it is approved, there's some things that I've put in there.

You're certainly welcome to tinker with the language a little bit.

But I think one of them is primarily that

and I having been in college and having been in a fraternity know what happens.

The grass stays flat, it doesn't become a putting green or a lacrosse field or whatever and with painted lines on it.

And then I think there's the other condition is that should this

really start to look disheveled, then we can respond accordingly.

I do ask that, because I suspect that there will be other requests that come with this, particularly further down Rugby Road and some of the other fraternities where hard mud is the surface that they're dealing with.

If there's something unique about this site behind the hedge, for example, or the smaller area that makes this preferable for this site, but maybe not for others, it would be helpful to express that in your discussions.

such that we have, you know, maybe you established a little bit of guidance for the next thing that comes in.

And for example, the extreme, you know, someone says, we're going to install artificial turf on all four sides of the fraternity house or sorority house or any house.

So if you have any thoughts about that, that would be helpful.

But I think we've laid out pretty clear, you know, the staff's recommendations.

And, you know, Ian and Garrett are here tonight to present

I have a question for you.

You know, I mean, in the maintenance and repair provisions of the ordinance allow, we do that for any property that's designated, if it seems to be

If the roof's falling off, the windows are falling down.

If it is detrimental to the visual character of the district, we can cite someone.

So I don't know, maybe if there's, you know, if it's,

Are there things that you, like I know TERF will start to flatten over the years.

Is there, you know, if there's anything particular about TERF that, you know, would say, all right, well, if it reaches this point, that to us is, I don't know the answer.

It's just a thought that came to me.

We have

A citation is a zoning violation.

We have let people know.

I'm not a zoning official, so I have not cited anyone.

And I know that I was done a little more regularly before.

But no, I have not cited anyone.

On the site plan, it says not drawn to scale.

Yeah, the two areas, like total square footage.

It's about from that window to that wall.

I only ask because we're setting maybe some precedential

Yeah, I would venture to say it's one of the smallest front yards on Rugby Road, which is part of the problem.

It's part of the reason why it won't sustain a stand of grass.

It simply won't.

I mean, you know, what we're looking at for us is it's the best solution for us and for Rugby Road.

We don't want to roll outside every fall and then have it die in October, roll it back up and go back to the mud.

We don't want a pervious surface that's going to create runoff that we can't manage.

One of the things you also requested was the installation standards, and you can see from those there's going to be a lot of earth work to create the proper base and the proper drainage so that this really is a pervious surface and the drainage is handled.

correctly.

The other thing I would say is this is a $2 million plus property.

We invested a million dollars in it about 10 years ago.

The front yard looks like hell.

We're trying to invest more money in the property.

I don't think it's fair to suggest that we're not going to maintain it in a quality manner.

The only solution to that is leave it as it is or pave it.

Neither of those is good.

And this allows the water to run through.

It'll actually be a cleaner surface.

It'll be sturdy.

And when it comes time, which Jeff tells us,

Yeah, could you speak into the microphone so those online can hear you?

Thank you.

This is the moment for if there are any questions from the public, either here in the audience or online.

Do I understand correctly that you're going to have a wood timber around the perimeter of the lawn?

That's how it gets held in place?

No, I don't believe that's correct.

OK.

I thought that was the detail.

Yes, I'm sorry.

Yes, that will not be visible.

It won't be visible.

The edging of it goes underneath the product, from my understanding.

Of course, not the installers.

This is secondhand information.

Yeah, I do.

I certainly have not looked in that direction.

I'm just curious why.

Just due to the sterile nature of it, I understand it's sort of a very public facing area, but it is still home to a number of men.

And I personally wouldn't want to have pavers outside my home.

We want to give it as much of a residential look as possible.

and that's consistent with our views as the owners and I'll point out that the front porch is about similarly 58 feet wide but it's about six or eight feet extended from the house and that is cement.

Okay so we've already got that and what you would be doing is just having two steps down and more

impervious surface.

We don't think that's attractive.

We just, you know, it doesn't appeal to us.

Stretching around the side of the house and behind it are brick pavers.

So we've used brick in those areas.

The house is brick, just enough's enough.

This was originally a yard.

I have one more question.

Should be seven to ten years.

The installer will be providing annual service to kind of fluff it up and clean it up as needed and they're providing a warranty and this is what they do.

They offered us 15 or 20 different

Similar but slightly different.

I have a question on the brick piers.

You'll have them shown as 20-inch squares.

Does that work out for your bonding?

I exchanged an email with the architect and it does and you can see the bricks on that scheme.

The elevation and the plan don't coincide.

It looks like it would be easier at 1 foot 4 than it would be at 20 inches.

But I think the proportions here are, to my eye, feel okay.

And I appreciate the fact that you all came back to us since we asked you to give us a detail and show us what you're intending.

Any other questions from the board?

Do we have any comments from the public either here in the audience or online?

and just holler if we have any.

I'll start.

I think, you know, first of all, I totally appreciate your explanation of why you want what you want.

And it makes total sense to me.

However, I'm still kind of in the same mindset of last time you came.

and the reason being is I just I think and for me this is precedent you know it's just number one I just don't feel as if the material is appropriate for the particular context not that the material isn't appropriate for certain places and I guess I refer to the you know directly to our guidelines under plantings

Number eight says, select mulching and edging materials carefully and do not use plastic edgings.

Lava, crushed rock, and naturally colored mulch are historically unsuitable materials.

So for me, it's a precedent-setting thing.

And that's sort of tempered with the size of the space.

Again, it's such a small space.

I think I made the same comment when you were here the other month that I do feel as if, you know,

When you're saying paving, I feel like there could be some really lovely opportunities to do a hardscape that could be permeable.

I think there's an easy way to manage drainage in this particular case.

when I lived in like Old Town Alexandria, our front porch was literally like the brick, there was an extension of the brick sidewalk and maybe I'm just coming at this with a certain prejudice but I also thought it was just a lovely front yard and especially for you know the amount of foot traffic that this is going to get, the amount of the kind of activity that's going to be had on that turf

It might work out just fine from a functional standpoint.

I don't know, but it seems to me a hardscape would be a more suitable material for the current use, current function.

And then there's also the sustainability standpoint for me of putting plastic down and we keep replicating that.

That's not really the best use of our resources either.

I'll interrupt up, put an image up there just quickly to kind of help visualize the red is the house, then there's this front porch so that you see both, you know, roughly what at least GIS roughly gives you for dimension.

All right, so I guess start with the brick piers, actually.

I think that if the intent is to match the Flemish bond of the house and build the piers sized such that they match that with a, you know, stretcher header, stretcher, and don't have cut bricks to make the one foot eight measurement, then that's

What I'd prefer to see is the design intent and I'm okay with that.

If it ends up being 18 inches instead of 20 or whatever, once you get your mortar joints in there, just making it look right is what I'm hoping the intent is and not just a hard set one foot eight.

I'm okay with the limestone cap matching the profile detail of the pilasters of the house.

I think that's a nice touch.

And I think we discussed,

Hopefully setting these closer into the sidewalk and then letting the hedges grow to them.

I think you're trying to look for traffic control and that should help.

In terms of the artificial turf, it's definitely a struggle.

I bat it around in my head a lot.

I work at the university so I'm familiar with the area, very familiar with it.

Just as an example, I guess, the Bailey Museum, which is right up the street, had a middle terrace, or has a middle terrace, that was once grass and is now paved with bluestone pavers.

I think for some of the same reasons, they probably had some maintenance issues and it also gave them a gathering space.

to use, which is hardscape.

So I think there is a precedent in this district that shows that there is a solution of using hardscape in lieu of landscape kind of to achieve that same type of goal.

So I'm still struggling with exactly where I'm landing on it, but I just wanted to kind of bring that up as something else that's in this particular historic district that did away with

The original fabric if you will or the original landscape and put something that was compatible and appropriate in the district and Is a good solution so I think

I think a pave service here would work.

It doesn't necessarily have to be brick.

I think you can contrast it with bluestone or even concrete pavers if they're nice ones.

And I think to David's point, you can do an underlayment that allows drainage and things like that.

It's just tough to kind of think that plastic grass is appropriate in a historic district, I guess.

I basically agree with what's been said.

A lot of our guidelines point to materials that are long-lasting, and I realize that landscape materials are not necessarily long-lasting.

It's not grass anymore at this point.

It's a constructed surface.

You've got the hedges out front, which I think do a very good job of softening the project.

If it was just brick pavers that came out to the sidewalk, then yes, I think there would be a problem.

And then grass.

Well, yeah, I'm still leery of the precedent of the artificial turf.

If you need to soften the area more, maybe there's an opportunity to put some more planted areas in that space.

You know, maybe some small trees, something that wouldn't grow up and hit the power lines, but just to carve out some of the brick pavers that might, or whatever surface you end up laying down.

I, for one, don't mind the artificial turf.

I understand your desire to have something that feels soft underfoot to be the front of the house that you can hang out in and something that's more comfortable than a hard-paved surface.

To me this one is a little different than a precedent across all the front yards because of how hidden the front yard is with the hedge, with the piers, that I feel like it's an acceptable application of the product and that the artificial turf could be used in this application.

I do wonder right at the front at the brick piers I feel like there is going to need to be a condition of what the detail at grade is because I don't think you're going to want a small strip of the artificial turf but you're also not going to want

True grass in that little area.

I agree.

I think the artificial turf, if we didn't know if it was artificial, I think people driving by wouldn't even know.

I think this stuff has come a long way from the carpet that I played on in 92.

So I think it's hard for us to judge it because you're staring at a piece of plastic.

But I think if you didn't even know that that was plastic, I would think that was grass.

I do understand the historic part of this and also the idea of maybe having that concrete jungle in front of your house when you want something green.

So I'm in agreement.

Well, I actually agree with most of what's been said.

I agree on the one hand that a more appropriate landscape material for this

particular situation would be a hard pavement.

And I absolutely believe that it could look elegant and look beautiful.

However, that being said, we are charged to assess what has been put before us and not whether we think there's a better solution, but whether this solution actually detracts from the historic district and this historic property.

And I agree with the last couple of speakers that I think that this very particular situation, the installation is both small and screened, largely screened, and it's fully reversible.

So I think that this is a unique situation.

I do not

Want to treat it as a precedent for I think we need to be very specific about if we approve this You know why but I'm in I'm in favor of the proposal.

I think it's in a better a Better solution than its current state.

I am not going to object to this turf.

I agree that it wouldn't be appropriate in a lot of places and I would note even, I asked Mr. Zeemer, in Mad Bull, which the university a couple years back completely redid, you know, it was muddy and

Grass wasn't growing in it.

They chose not to do an artificial turf, and there really is natural grass there.

So in a larger application, I would have a problem with it.

But given the hedge and the size of it, I don't.

As Brecht said, personally, I would prefer that you plant two trees in this area to shield the house from the western sun and maybe put a bench near them as a

staging area for people coming and going from the house, for brothers there, for parents, for visitors, and do some hardscape there, but that's not what's before us.

That would be my preference, but that's not what you've asked us to approve.

I guess I would just note, because I don't know if it'll be part of really, the circumstances are really not part of our

Any other comments?

To Mr. Whitney's point, we can certainly lay brick around the base of those two pillars, at least on the outside, on the sidewalk side.

And I think we may have, we'll look at butting the

I think it's a good idea to put some more site lighting in for pathways and whatnot.

One other comment is I hope you will approve this because we're already getting close to the end of June and part of our goal is not to have to come back again a third time with another design.

But I understand if we do, we do.

I'll make a motion, Mr.

Chair.

Just trying to find it, sorry.

I mean I know we want to have the magic COA and you know for one thing but this is you know one thing when it's an entire building but within the landscape and there are pieces and parts so I see nothing wrong if a motion's made for all the things that are fine and that's okay and then if you want to make a separate motion for the turf

I don't think that's a problem.

But I think that the point being is that there are the peers, the lighting, things that if the motion is shot down, it doesn't shoot down the things that the BAR would like to approve.

Although if the motion gets denied, we just make another motion, right?

I mean, gosh, I don't know.

I do want to say that we should qualify or at least express that it's specific to this condition.

Because no one here wants to see front lawns going down to the sidewalk with artificial grass.

I guess I agree with you, but we only, as a BAR, we don't make, we're not modifying the guidelines, we don't make rules for all time.

We can only really vote on the conditions that are in front of us, and I think to the extent that there have been comments about conditions here that augur for approval, that would guide us in the next application, but I'm not sure that making a motion saying that, you know, if it's less than this or more than this,

These dimensions, and if it isn't shielded, then we would never approve it in the future.

That's not part of what we do here.

What I would do is somewhat like the motion last month for deferral where we added B.A.R.

's comments and recommendations.

So for this I would include in the BAR's discussion it was noted that this is reversible, that the current condition is understandably unacceptable.

It's screened by a hedge and does not come all the way to the sidewalk.

and that the size, the two small sizes, two sections mitigates the impact.

So you're saying that's not part of a motion?

I don't think it's necessary.

I think the key is just that it's memorialized and not lost in the files for the next time.

So either way works.

But I would say if you are expressing it in a condition noted, it's reversible.

It's preferable to the existing or to the current condition.

It's screened by a hedge.

Lord help me.

Having considered standards set forth within the city code including the ADC district design guidelines, I move to find the proposed landscaping plan for 180 Rugby Road satisfies the BAR's criteria and is compatible with this property and other properties in the ADC district and that the BAR approves the application with the following conditions.

that the turf will remain flat and the surface unaltered, meaning no logos, images, symbols, and other uses on this property, on the turf.

The turf will be maintained, including appropriate drainage, including appropriate drainage.

Removal or replacement will be required by the city if it's in disrepair or deteriorated.

And I make this motion under these conditions because we realize that this is a reversible application, that it's screened well by a hedge.

The area is relatively small in dimension.

It doesn't go to the public right of way or the sidewalk.

We'll call the vote.

Timmerman?

Sorry, Timmerman.

Yes.

Mr. Pearl?

Mr. Zimmer?

No.

Ms. Lewis?

Aye.

Mr. Bailey's not here.

Mr. Schwartz?

No.

And I vote yes.

So the motion carries five to three.

All right.

Well, thank you.

Thank you.

Good luck.

We'll wait in anticipation.

All right.

I always think Brecht soft-spoken, but boy, all of you are.

I know, you're right.

I will laugh too about playing on that old turf.

God, that was the worst.

You know, after a game, you didn't have any skin left on.

I don't know.

I don't know why it was more like a carpet on a concrete.

So there we go, the days of glory.

I will ask that,

I have to sometimes go back and listen to the meeting and catch things and it really, one emotion's being made.

And it's, you know, Molly and I are there reading lips going, I think that's what, so please, please try to, you know, use the mic generously.

It was a highlighted evening.

I think I haven't had many projects that come to the VAR.

It's really been as interesting and generated as much discussion as this one.

So I know Mr. Kaplan wanted to create a buzz.

I think he has, and in a good way.

So what's before you is it's a COA request

for 122 East Main Street.

This is on the downtown mall and this is the eastern wall that faces 2nd Street south of the mall.

And the request is to rehabilitate the existing vestige signs on the east elevation.

And we're, I want to be clear about using the term rehabilitation, not restoration, not recreation.

And the preservation that wants

Once the rehabilitation is done, we're able to protect that so that it doesn't fade as much as it might otherwise.

We did briefly discuss this in May.

Michael discussed some other things that are going on in the mall.

But to this building, it was constructed in 1897, and it's actually, looking from the mall, it's the two storefronts, 120 and 122, 122 being the farthest east and the current location of the Oyster House.

Let me find quickly my note.

we had yeah we know that in that that eastern building that from 1897 to 1912 the business located here was TJ Willison Company and the sign closest to the northeast corner says TJ Willison Company Grocers and Hay Mill

That sign is still visible.

From 1912 to around sometime 1945, 1946, the 122 was occupied by Pence and Sterling, which was a drugstore.

there is at the, and again I'm talking at the northeast corner, you can see Pence and Sterling still in red paint over top of the T.J. Willis sign.

We know that from 1947 into the 1960s a series of businesses were there, one the record shop, there was a dentist, for a time it was the Griddle Cafeteria,

Saunders Home Appliances, Fleming's Men's Shop, and Lassner's Jewelers for a period of time.

I can't really make out any signage I can associate directly with those, but there are

For example, the top of the wall looks like the words BRID.

We don't know if that's bridal.

You can make out the word cake.

And there's other signs in there.

And this is on the right-hand side.

And the reason I'm going through this is just to offer that there's a lot going on on that northeast corner from the original business in 1897 and likely into the 1960s.

The building at 120 East Main, the other storefront,

was occupied from 1909 into the 1950s by Hawkins Brothers and Company.

And I haven't seen anything that indicates signage from them.

Also then in the middle section, you have there are actually three Koch signs there, two at the top and one at the bottom.

The two less visible are much larger than the one at the top.

Then the second Coca-Cola sign was added and a signage below for Al Cigar's O.W.L.

And then to the far left was the Sloan's Liniment sign.

That appears to be the only thing that's on that segment.

What's before you is a, this had started out as an idea to restore the Koch sign and it's expanded into a discussion about the wall itself if possible.

I will admit that last summer I told Mike please don't do this because it puts the VAR in a tough spot and then sort of talking

folks in the preservation world it was sort of interesting take on in the sense that you know we're losing this sign can this stabilize it at least be held on to you know what's there but then I had a series of conversations last week with

just people passing by and some folks that I talk to about this and it's really interesting.

I know I mentioned to you all, you stand there at that wall, you start to see things pop out and Molly even did some things with Photoshop to try and see what can we see.

There's a lot going on and so the hesitation you might read in the staff report is more,

My saying, before we touch it, let's really make sure, bless you, let's make sure we know what we're touching, what we're bringing forward, let's document that, let's be sure that any vestige that we're rehabilitating is a correct interpretation of that wall.

So I think, and in that sort of introduction, I know we talked more about the wall than what's being done, but

The methodology that's proposed, that's what is done.

That seems to be the appropriate way to do it and that is to sort of seal the wall where it is and then really draw out with sort of incremental

application of tint to bring the sign, to rehabilitate it and sort of to touch it as lightly as possible to bring it to visibility and then stop there.

And so the questions and I hopefully have articulated them well in here are, you know, I think the methodology is sound but again it's a

It's a question for the BAR.

This is putting a coating on a wall.

We typically don't allow the painting of unpainted brick.

That may not necessarily apply here because that brick has been painted.

I think the question is should

This entire wall be done like this and what should we know, what should be considered, what should be made available before that's done and if you all are to consider this, how can we

make a determination of when we've gotten to rehabilitation.

When the artist is working there, is it our job to say, nope, you're good, stop.

I'm not sure how to answer that one.

The artist could say, I'm going to bring this thing back 99%.

If we have some strong feelings about at what point do we want to evaluate it as it goes, that's something for the conversation.

So a lot going on in that.

Like I said, hopefully I've expressed my questions in the staff report in a way that can generate the discussion.

And do you have any questions for me?

And we have lots and lots of photos of the wall, so I don't have to have a Jeff spreadsheet up there on the wall.

If you want to look at something, let us know.

Thank you very much and I owe a great debt of gratitude to Jeff who has worked very hard on this.

This report is very comprehensive and balanced and thank you sir.

We ask your approval to rehabilitate this historic mural, this vintage mural to clean and seal the entire wall, to document the existing conditions with photographs,

to assemble historic photos that confirm the original style of each mural, to rehabilitate all the ghost murals on the wall, all of them.

Rehabilitate each one just enough to achieve legibility so that each mural can tell its story of the history of downtown.

To rehabilitate in a delicate and skilled manner to preserve the vintage qualities that are part of its magic.

The artist we found is an expert.

This is what he does and he has positive reviews everywhere he's worked.

The final results will be exactly as represented in the computer image that you approve.

And the final results will in no way diminish or compromise any nearby structures.

And the final results will be compatible and consistent with the downtown historic character and ambiance.

We believe that there's actually a responsibility to preserve these unique and fragile historic assets.

They are vintage public art.

They provide a window into yesterday, who we were, how we lived, and how our downtown looked over the past hundred years.

The murals complement the historic character of downtown because they are genuine historic memorabilia.

They amplify the authenticity of our historic district.

and they make people stop and smile and think about the passing of time and marvel that a soda pop ever cost five cents.

The murals also increase the urban vitality and the allure of our downtown.

Rehabbing the legibility will make the second street stroll all the more interesting and fun.

And as Jeff said already, people are stopping to contemplate and discuss the very charming puzzle that all these different names compile.

Fading is not the inevitable trajectory of a wall mural.

A wall mural fades only if that's allowed to happen due to lack of concern or funds.

We have a building owner who wants to rehabilitate their wall and preserve a fragile historic asset.

We have an expert who's available to assure the authenticity and respect for the historic district.

And the mural rehabilitation makes a valuable contribution to our downtown and its economic vitality.

I'm sure we'll have questions.

Also, is this a time for me to defer to my colleague from Charlottesville?

If there's some additional portion of the presentation, yeah, absolutely.

More of a public comment, I guess, but my name's Tom Chapman.

I'm the executive director of the Albemarle Charlottesville Historical Society, located 202nd Street Northeast.

Been in the position for about over three years and have been very interested in the work that downtown, Friends of downtown, Friends of Charlottesville downtown have been doing to rejuvenate and reimagine.

How we think about the downtown area, their work to build community connected to place is important and it ties directly with what we at the Historical Society are trying to do to shed light on our whole history and all this history starts at the local level and how we tell these stories come in many various shapes and sizes and forms such as a mural like this.

The Albemarle Charlottesville Historical Society supports the Friends proposal to rehabilitate and preserve this mural at 122 East Main Street.

Rehabilitating it will bring it to life, a past history of the downtown Charlottesville that's fading away that we want to bring back.

and also preserve it for future generations.

The contractor, Brushcan, who will conduct the rehabilitation has a wealth of experience and their work has been noted by the National Trust for Historic Preservation.

During my time working at Montpelier, which is a National Trust for Historic Preservation property, I know that the Trust's approval of anything does not come lightly or easily.

So if they like BrushCan, then I can only imagine that they're a good company.

So this is an important consideration.

So in conclusion, the Historical Society supports Michael Kaplan in this proposal and what the friends want to do.

Thank you very much.

Do we have any first questions for the applicant from the public here or online?

I've got a question and I think it's probably that you don't know quite yet but I think I'm right in that your maybe your archival research will help but is the intent to restore these such that the latest sign is the furthest out I guess like in terms of a layered approach right because obviously these are layered on top of each other so is the

Yeah, the artist Scott Allred from Brushcan says he gets up on the lift and he stares at what's there for him to find and he says he stares at it for a couple days before it even starts because, as Jeff says, the longer you look at it, the more you discover.

And the idea is to lift up what's there slightly and

To your point, that which is older is probably fainter already, and the idea is not to make them all equal, but to maintain their relative status, but to boost the legibility at each status.

Okay.

I have a question.

Just a clarification, really.

The note here says rehab of Coca-Cola sign is the primary project rehab of additional portions of the wall TBD.

Yes, at the time we first approached everybody, we mistakenly thought that less would be easier for you to say yes to.

But as everybody discussed it, it became apparent that it actually undid the whole purpose if you do just one piece.

It's about the whole wall and everybody giving their chronological due.

And I just, that was because there had been some like hoping to, you know, but I think just to memorialize that we are talking about the entire wall.

So there's nothing odd about my question.

I have a technical question, Mr. Kaplan.

Yeah, the sealant, which is porous, prevents what's under it from deteriorating further.

I would guess that you're probably right.

I don't really know.

But Scott's attack is like hour by hour to just get where everybody wants to go.

Right.

How does he or how does one sort of anticipate what the sealer, how the sealer is going to enhance the wall or change the wall?

I actually have no idea.

I'm told that it's porous and that it's light and color neutral.

So my home experience would suggest that it'll darken something if you put this on it, but apparently it dries as a clear seal.

I'll get you a follow up on that.

Each part of that whole chemical process is part of what he's doing to get us to this look.

I can fill in that.

You may know I own a Studeville, built in 1826, Thomas Steffer's design.

And the brick deteriorates.

And so if you don't stop that, then you probably see lots of old walls who just got worse and worse and worse to get holes in it.

And that protects it and brings back the old color from the brick.

And we have done it at Studeville.

It's a historic landmark and it actually will improve it.

When you go close right now, it looks really deteriorated.

That's pretty bad.

And I think it will come more alive and protect the brick for a long time.

I think that has two purposes.

I'd be interested to see what that original coat is because that, my understanding, that stuff brings out a lot of color and I think you also need to recognize what that's going to do with light and lighting and how that's going to really affect it because that's a shine on that.

Um, especially if you're going to do another coat at the end there.

Um, so I think there's a lot of different factors there as far as, you know, nighttime lighting and how that's all going to look and even if you're going to be able to, you know, the reflection on that is pretty significant.

I also

You know, when it comes to the artist, I mean, those guys are all, I mean, unbelievably talented.

But you got to make sure, and I worry about the creativity there, because there shouldn't be any.

What is on that paper, he needs to, you know, whoever, the creativity has got to go out the back door and they're a worker bee.

You know what I mean?

With unbelievable talent.

No, you're absolutely right.

I think that's really important to put that out there, that we're not looking for creativity.

Yeah, after the meeting with you all last month, when I reported back to him, that first of all, the discussion is about the whole wall.

He got all excited because he felt that everybody was humming the same tune now, because he

To him, the artistry is to be able to give each ghost its due, not to soup it up to his taste, but what it is, not to change it.

I would wonder if that's a high gloss or not, because I think that's a significant difference, like I said, with that lighting.

And then I guess my other comment is bringing all this stuff out, are you going to lose it?

I guess I really need to see what this computer generated picture looks like more, I guess.

Because I just worry about all those different things coming out and then you're losing things in the process.

So he's bringing out what's there.

He's not adding to what's there.

And so it is a puzzle.

When you give them all their due, it becomes a puzzle.

But it also becomes a piece of art in and of that fact.

And so what you're staring at now, there's actually more that you can't see in this photo.

You have to stand there and let your eyes adjust.

And you suddenly start seeing that right above the W, there's a whole lot of story up there.

And perhaps this first coast of seal will bring some of that out.

His goal is just to give us back the wall that we have, not to get cute, not to say don't you think you ought to introduce a little purple.

I just have one other question.

The last time you were in here, you were talking about how he's got the artist's ability to enhance and sort of bring some things out and modulate what the final expression of the sign is.

Yeah, and some of what you just described, he says he cannot do until he's up on the lift, right?

And actually sees an eyeball to eyeball.

So at that point, he will generate a computer image of where he thinks we can go with this.

And with your approval, we could take it back to Jeff and even to you if you said, is this what we're talking about?

And everyone says, yeah, that's what we're talking about.

I can hardly see you.

I'll just offer, and if you could go to one of the photos, the one I took.

And I think it is exactly where the questions are lying, sort of like, OK, we're understanding what's going to be done, but it's that calibration of what's acceptable.

And there's, for example, the owl cigar.

The owl is gone.

It looks like the brick was replaced or something was done there.

It's not what he's presenting as his final.

So that's the, what's the, if you all were inclined to this, is there a graphic that you would like to see?

Are there images, are there assurances of what's there?

Did he lock you out?

Jeff can I understand the difference between the image that's on page 64 and the image that's very similar but there are some differences on page 65 I'm just curious which one is maybe ones from the city and ones from the applicant?

or maybe that was the previous meeting.

It also shows the sort of, you know, the difference in interpretation of, you know, the difficulty in reading it.

So, but, you know, this, I don't know, just here's, you know, a good example.

I don't know, you can't really see it, but like the word

Up here is the word cake.

There's something right there.

It says low, looks like prices.

And above that.

is up here you can see B-R-I-D, so this is where, and I didn't see that until Friday standing out there looking at it, and I swear, I just need to ask you all, I swear this looks like a moose head right here.

Did you see, and Molly looked at me like I'm nuts, but yeah, you can see C-A-K-E here, but I see a moose head.

But the image that I was just gonna show,

Yeah, here.

So you can see in the owl cigar, you can see the bottom here, R-A-G-I-C, and there's where the owl image was.

I don't know if that owl is still there or if the artist in their initial research said, oh, there would have been an owl there.

So that's the kind of thing that, again, if you all are inclined to approve it,

So are we approving or considering a version that recreates an owl?

I think we have to start by putting on the seal and see what reveals itself.

And if there is a ghost there, then he would factor that into his computer drawing that then goes to Jeff to says, this is the owl we see.

In the example here, as Jeff said, where the owl appears in the photograph is based on the owl cigar mural wherever you find it in the country.

That's their mural.

And so he said it would be here.

And that's one of the decisions that communities make.

Some go back to 100%, full saturation, exactly the way it looked on the day it was installed 100 years ago.

And that's just a value choice.

It seems to be the consensus among all of us that that would be longer down the line.

What I might suggest for our purposes is that tonight we consider the process that they've put forward which obviously requires a little bit more research and a final product that we could choose whether to approve that or not and that we continue to work with the applicant approval of a final art direction at a later date if the process is approved.

Are there other specific questions for the applicant?

Should we move to comment?

Are there any comments from the public either here in the room?

Yes?

My name is Susan Krischel and I live on the downtown mall and I think I would be foolish to try and think that I could do a better job of arguing the historical significance than the historical society, so I'm going to skip that piece of it for the moment and just say that

This corridor is the most important entry onto the downtown mall, given its proximity to the Water Street parking garage and to the outdoor parking lots.

And right now, when you walk up that corridor, you see an unfinished hotel on one side and a dilapidated and rundown large wall on the other side.

Hopefully one day before I die the Dewberry Hotel will get finished But I'm not hopeful for that But I am excited about the idea that we can bring some life and some excitement to this important entry corridor And I think this is a really interesting and cool way to do it that does pay homage to our historical

Thank you very much.

Do we have any other comment from the public?

Anyone online?

I would just say that what you suggested about approving the process makes a lot of sense to me.

The idea that if something's not there, they're not going to try and restore it.

It does look like a window got filled in where there may have been an owl at some point.

I mean, we've got a lot of vestige signs in this town, and this would be a really great way to find out, is this a, it'd be a good test case.

Yeah, I agree with that.

And I don't know how we sort of codify being able to look at it in process.

But if there were a way that we can have some input,

I think just simply that might be, I don't want to say enough, but that you're not saying that's fine, go do it, let the artist, you know, let the architect build a building.

You're expressing that you want to be involved in this and have updates and follow it.

I think we'll have to work that out a little bit.

I don't think the guy's going to come in and knock this out on a weekend.

But there are periodic pauses that allow Michael and I to communicate.

So to me, first and foremost,

and if you don't mind I'll use this as my public service announcement.

Molly's been saying you know we need to put the word out to the city and ask people do you have photographs of downtown and it might be a family photo and this is in the background but you know encourage people if they've got photographs you know share them with us so that you know we can you know see a little bit further back in time what was there.

But to me, I think Michael's done a really good job explaining the process and that incremental steps.

So I have a much better image in my head of what the artist would be doing.

The first step, though, would be

I think I'd have to say to him, if I don't see an owl there, you're not painting an owl there.

And if there is a moose head there, then there better be a moose head there.

So I think if you can express in that that I will be tracking this project incrementally, checking in with you all, hopefully you all are walking by.

I could live with that.

So a question for the applicant.

How quickly would this artist get started on this?

No, there's been a dance going on of me keeping him available while you all were deciding, while the patron was deciding with the money.

And he is currently freezing the last two weeks of August for us.

He will move here and stay for two weeks to do this job.

And so that's the target window we're working on.

I think that's a good way.

He is waiting for you to quarterback it.

The second photo that Jeff was talking to was based on what I reported to him after our last meeting, that they want to see the whole wall.

And so we'll just keep massaging that until the first dab of paint goes on.

We'll probably be tuning it in to where Jeff and whoever among you is also engaged.

That's it.

This is such a unique case.

I would almost think that we should appoint a small working group to work closely rather than using our meetings to follow this process.

Yeah, I mean, I'm in support of this project.

I think it's a fantastic idea.

I think, you know, something I kind of tried to take a step back from this and think about, you know, we've approved, or the BAR has approved new murals on buildings in historic districts.

And let's say that building then gets sold to somebody two years after we approve that mural.

And then that new owner wants to maintain that mural, right?

Are they not allowed to?

Are they not allowed to keep that mural just like it is and repaint it the same colors?

I don't think we could say no to that.

It's maintenance to some degree.

The tricky part here is that it's just really old and nobody's been maintaining it.

And you've got lots of layers.

And so in a sense,

You know, I think staff's recommendation is to look at this as preservation rehabilitation, and so therefore we're looking through it through that lens.

If they had said, let's look at it through a restoration or reconstruction lens, we could do that.

It would give us a different set of guidelines to follow.

And so I think part of the conversation is like, which lens do we look at it through?

based on what

The process they're proposing makes sense.

I think showing the layers of the different signs makes sense.

It's going to give the wall a lot of depth and a lot of vitality.

I was actually this morning looking through Ed Roseberry's photograph book.

And there's some images of downtown and it's like every building's got a painted sign.

It's pretty amazing.

Well, I came here tonight really on the fence about this, really conflicted.

And mainly because this is such a cool part of downtown Charlottesville, I just want to be part of messing it up.

And just touching it is a question of whether you mess it up.

I have to say that the way that you guys have

Please keep the cat calls from the audience to a minimum.

I really appreciate the way that you guys have approached this and the expertise that you've brought to this project, the care.

It's clear that you are doing this with the same approach that you don't want to mess this up, you actually want to bring it forward.

It's an unusual situation.

Maybe it's not unusual.

It may be unusual for a restoration to tackle this many layered signs at one time.

I can imagine that it will be, if it moves forward, it would be a subject of conversation.

Probably pro and con about preservation of this signage.

To me, the restoration of the Koch sign was less interesting because of just how many of those signs there are across the country that it wasn't particular to our town.

But the approach to the whole wall and a very careful attention to the layered quality, I think,

has the potential of saying a lot of pulling forward local businesses that were present in those locations and the very layered nature of it, speaking about the changes of usage over time.

And, frankly, it brings forward a part of Charlottesville that was, you know,

20s and 30s when a very different kind of approach to architecture really took over downtown and it's interesting to see this portion of Charlottesville come back to life in some way.

So I have came in on the fence.

I want to say that I've walked past this wall many a time and it's never really felt more than just a brick wall.

And when I first heard about the concept of trying to rehabilitate it to a certain degree but not fully restore it, something about that felt

kind of false or like it wasn't it wasn't either it was going to continue to naturally fade or it was going to need to be fully restored that something about trying to do it halfway felt I was skeptical of it but then seeing the previous work that the artist did in the Mooresville, North Carolina

Something about this felt different.

I really like the mural further up West Main Street on what's the public oyster building now.

It's a little different because it's an art mural, it's not an ad and the previous mural is still there and then a new mural went over top and you get both the layers on top.

This one felt different because it is an ad and it's not, you know, I guess you can debate what is

What is an ad?

What is a sign?

What is art?

What is a mural?

But seeing how it's been successful in other cities, I do think it would help bring more life to that wall.

I just want to thank everybody here just for bringing this.

I think your excitement is really commendable.

It just shows the love of your community and your willingness to step out and make this happen.

I think it's just something more that's...

So I think you made a really compelling, everybody made very compelling points.

which does nothing but help this and you know I think what came out of the meeting tonight was that procedurally we just want to we still want to maintain a process I think this needs to be handled carefully you know just so that it doesn't

So that we get it right.

I think this is the first really good step.

But I think what will make it successful is following through with it, having as many check-ins as we can.

I was actually surprised to hear that it was only going to take two weeks.

I was expecting longer.

But these kinds of things, I feel like they're successful when somebody gets into it.

We can talk about it for so long.

We can look at imagery.

But at a certain point it's a craft and the magic happens in the construction or in the artwork.

I think it's just making sure that there's a hands-on approach where it's not just one person giving rain.

that we have a we have a periodic check-in and I also think it might be a good idea you know all of a sudden tonight there were certain rules that were being set down like for instance if the thing is not there don't and reimagine it

But I think that we'll probably find or generate more rules as we move forward and it'll get more technical and detailed as we move along.

Whether it's with the sealer or with some kind of material or with some kind of paint, we may discover things as he starts, you know, in August.

And I think it might be a good idea to codify that in some way, you know, so we have sort of a record of kind of a law book of

of what we're trying to attain and rules to guidelines and rules to go by.

I did have a comment.

What's exciting about this is that it's not just a Coca Cola sign, which was the original project, but the rest of the murals tell a history about the building.

which is amazing.

These are not just murals, commercial signs, advertisement from the past.

TJ Wills, once that's restored, tells a story of a grocery store that was here 100 years ago.

And that's really important.

So I'm very supportive of this.

If I can find where the written motion is in our materials, I'm happy to.

So if I could, I think there's a question about that sheen and so I think that as a

The process that's laid out in that spreadsheet and there's the initial research and they're going to be doing that research to tell us at least what they can identify before they get up and do things.

So I think that referring to that sort of and that

Archival information will be provided prior to starting, something like that.

So that we know it's been looked at, it's been photographed.

I think you all have asked for some clarification on the, or Kevin has, but I think it was an excellent question about the sheen.

You know, we'll go through this and then find out, you know, gee, you can only see it at eight in the morning.

You can find out what was the experience in North Carolina and other places.

Does it remain visible?

The phrase that keeps coming to my mind is when do we say that's far enough?

You stop.

To me personally, I think the red and the green and the Koch signs have probably been pulled a little more forward than what's there.

It would be, I think, in the period of that two weeks, it's going to take some collaboration, cooperation, but that staff would be staying on top of this and consulting with the BAR chair and co-chair if any questions.

That would be sort of that.

So there's the things that we would want to resolve prior to work starting, and then it's that process during the work.

I'm looking, consulting with the BAR chair, co-chair, and with the understanding that

You got it?

Whatever.

Having considered the standards set forth in the city code including the ADC district design guidelines, I move to find the proposed rehabilitation preservation of the vestige signs at 122 East Main Street satisfies the BER's criteria.

It is compatible with this property and other properties in the ADC district and the BER approves the application with the following conditions.

that the wall will be fully documented.

There will be archival research done on it before any work is started.

That the applicant will confirm the sheen of any coatings on the brick and whether there will be any color change to the brick with the application.

That we are approving the process and not necessarily the images that have been presented to us.

and that the artist will maintain the hierarchy of the various layers in the signs that they will not recreate anything that does not already exist and that the

Second.

I think you beat me by a sliver of a sec, but I wondered if I could offer a friendly amendment.

There were some other conditions in the staff report that, and I don't know if this has been satisfied yet, it seems like it has been, but there be any further research and original signage done?

That was one of the

and that a thorough image and photo analysis of the current condition of the wall be done, photographs be done to preserve what's currently there before anything is touched up.

I tried to get the first two, but I think you made it much clearer.

I accept those amendments.

It was pretty spare.

I couldn't find that.

It was elsewhere.

He prints this out for us.

I didn't even bother yet.

All right.

Any further discussion?

I'll say something very funny about the discussion.

I wouldn't mind seeing the owl reappear magically, magical owl.

I think that's where you get into the difference between rehabilitation and restoration.

But I would say by way of analogy, if we had a historic building and it were somehow by lightning tonight destroyed, would we allow that building to be built just as it were?

And I would argue it's sort of the same thing for the owl.

He's just disappeared, not of his own will.

I just don't want an artist to go rogue on us.

That's all I was worried about.

Alright, Mr. Timmerman.

Aye.

Mr. Burrow.

Aye.

Mr. Zehmer.

Aye.

Ms. Lewis.

Aye.

Mr. Whitney.

Aye.

And I vote yes as well.

Congratulations, thank you for bringing this to us.

All right.

Next item on our agenda is the, well, it's a couple of things.

So let me introduce both of them once.

There are two items related to the Salvation Army at 207-211 Ridge Street.

One being the requiring action on your part is a special use permit request

and the other is a preliminary discussion about the proposed design and which no action is required for that.

So, and thank you for that.

was exactly kind of what I was hoping for on that sign question.

I wasn't sure where you all would be, but that's very illuminating.

All right, so again, the SUP request for 207-211 Ridge Street, this is their existing buildings at the site, you all have approved the demolition.

They're 1965, 1980, and a 1992 structure.

So that's taken care of.

What is before you is a special use permit which are approved by city council.

So you are not approving or denying.

merely making a recommendation to council for them to consider on whether or not the requested special conditions, if allowed, would be detrimental to the Ridge Street ADC district.

And there are

There are a couple things they are.

Part of the request also involves uses, but you all, the BAR does not, you don't evaluate how a site is used, so that is specifically omitted from this, just so there's no confusion.

But the primary question is the modified setbacks, and Aaron does a better job of explaining, but there's a build-to line

associated with the setback requirement and of how much of the face of a structure must be at that setback line.

As I had mentioned earlier that this is in the West Main zoning kind of wrapped that corner and that's what's requiring this being fully pulled to the front of the property.

I will say I've been wondering for a year now what that is.

And it is in the building.

I know, but I always thought there was a train or a thunder or something, so just figured you all would wonder as well.

But this structure or this property has two street frontages, so that causes some problem with the ordinance.

So what they are requesting with the modification is that

The setback at 4th Street at the rear, this building will be pulled forward towards Ridge Street.

So there's the change from the 4th Street and then at Ridge Street that in lieu of where you'd have to fill the whole front, they're allowing that articulation of the wall, which is where that large tree is that was working to preserve there.

So and then the other

And also the setbacks would allow some mobility in and out of the site during construction.

And one of the things they want to do, too, is the shelter will remain in operation.

So pulling the construction towards Ridge Street allows the shelter facility to the rear of the site to be continued use during the project.

And then the parking requirements, they won't have as much parking as required, but also they

There's a point at which the scale is tipped and you have to build structured parking, so the modification would not require all the max parking, but also not require that they construct a parking garage, a structured parking on the site.

And then after, again, your evaluation of that, consideration of those things,

You're not looking at the architecture of the building yet.

Will the modifications of the setbacks and the parking have an adverse impact on the historic district?

The staff doesn't believe it will.

Again, also with the understanding that this comes back to you for design review anyway.

And then in the preliminary discussion,

They are, Aaron said, somewhat far along in the design.

So we're looking at not conceptual.

This is kind of solidly the direction they're heading.

So what questions would you all have?

What information would you want to see in the final presentation or any issues with the materiality, et cetera, et cetera?

That's what you want to do in a preliminary discussion, really working towards what would we want from the applicant so that they could have a successful submittal.

So with that, I will turn it over

Hand it off to you all.

Aaron can discuss it.

But again, the first thing is a taking action on the SUP.

Thanks, Jeff.

You do a fine job.

I'm Erin Hannigan with Mitchell Matthews Architects, and with me tonight is John Matthews, who might chime in with page numbers or other tidbits.

So it's over here.

The Salvation Army has been serving Charlottesville since 1912.

They've occupied the site at 207 Ridge Street since around 1965, when they constructed the chapel, the administration offices, and the gymnasium.

Around 1980, they built the emergency shelter at 211 Ridge, which is on the 4th Street side of the site at the rear.

And then around 1992, they added the transitional housing piece and the soup kitchen, which is embedded in the center of the site.

The Salvation Army is the only year-round shelter available in Charlottesville.

Last year they helped more than 21,000 individuals and families with critical social services.

I'm going to read from The Salvation Army's goals.

which says their goal is to have each person they serve, which is their client, partner with the Salvation Army in the Pathway of Hope program.

Our plan, meaning their plan, is to assist in breaking the cycle of poverty and assist individuals and families to achieve their goals through securing stable jobs, housing and becoming self-sufficient.

The single most important reason for redevelopment is to improve community services and increase capacity.

The men's shelter is constantly full.

In addition, the current facilities are in three buildings, and therefore the programs they house are disconnected due to the piecemeal expansion that occurred over time and the constricted nature of the existing parcel.

The building goals of the new facility include increased capacity, improved functionality and efficiency, allowance for future expansion on site, and most importantly, allowing the existing shelter to remain operational during redevelopment.

The Salvation Army would also like the community at large to see and become more aware of their services and the work that they do that this new facility will provide to the community and hopefully become more engaged with the facility and the volunteer opportunities within.

Therefore, the building is sited closer to Ridge Street creating that visibility into the building on the primary street as a physical manifestation of the goal.

The design team also wished to save the existing 56-inch oak tree, which we discussed in the January meeting.

Why are we requesting this SUP?

We're requesting it for use, but that's not under your purview.

So the site is a double frontage lot, with Ridge Street as a primary street and 4th Street Southwest as a linking street.

The lot is 397 feet deep from Ridge Street to 4th Street, and just under 120 feet wide.

at its narrowest point, which is the majority of the length of the site.

SUP is, again, being sought for the use, which is a shelter care facility.

It's also a house of worship, which is a buy right use, but it's also requesting these other modifications that I can go into slightly more detail.

The setback relief on the Lincoln Street, which is 4th Street, the required setback is a five foot minimum and a 12 foot maximum.

We're proposing a 10 foot minimum be written into the

SEP request and that there's no maximum setback.

And the reason, again, constructability with the existing shelter to remain intact during construction, the only available open area for lay down space to redevelop is along that 4th Street frontage.

The project goals are utilize the allowable height available under the existing ordinance and leave undeveloped area open for future expansion.

This means that the project is pushed towards Ridge Street leaving the open area on the 4th Street frontage.

and modifying the min to 10 feet rather than a 5 foot minimum aligns with the street buffer requirement of 10 feet as well which would remain during any future expansion.

No maximum allows for the currently proposed structure as designed to be built as represented here.

The second item is reducing the build to percentages.

So the required percentage that has to fall of the building frontage that needs to fall within the min max setbacks on Ridge Street is 80% and it's 40% on the 4th Street side.

We're proposing 32% at Ridge Street, and we're asking it not to be required on the 4th Street side.

Again, the reason we're doing this on Ridge Street is to protect that tree, which we all agreed we wanted to save.

And the reason we're doing it at 4th Street is, again, because the existing shelter occupies a good bit of a portion of the frontage.

The rest of it's the open area that I just discussed.

The next item is the reduction of the required parking quantity.

Using the ordinance, we would be required to have 52 spaces.

We're asking for no minimum so that we can allow for future flexibility on site, which aligns with the proposed zoning ordinance, but the actual spaces to be provided would be 32, which is a 39% reduction.

We're also asking for the modification to the required covered parking.

It's just covered parking, not particularly structured parking.

But if you have more than 20 spaces on site, 50% of those are required to be covered.

And in this case, for the clientele visiting the building, open surface parking would just be viewed as more comfortable and favorable to them.

It also allows the parking lot to be used for other outdoor uses should they have an event happen on site.

Going into the massing and scale, which is in your purview, the one and a half story chapel is the portion that reaches out towards Ridge Street and is similarly scaled to the one and two story houses across Ridge Street.

Similarly, the one story multipurpose room stretches towards 4th Street, southwest, but is over 100 feet from the property line and is also therefore in keeping with the existing one and two story houses in scale and size on the 4th Street.

Both the chapel and the multipurpose rooms are narrow forms reminiscent of the width of the existing single-family residential fabric that remains in the area and the massing is a direct response again to the narrowness of the site and working around the tree in the existing shelter.

The area that is around the tree and the area adjacent to it under the front porch would become public outdoor amenity space which is mentioned in the future proposed zoning ordinance as being required for future projects.

The primary massing or the upper stories is approximately 69 feet from Ridge Street and over 200 feet from 4th Street.

It nearly fills the site in the north-south dimension and extends west in an L-shaped form for the upper stories.

The building height is 51 feet, calculated from the curb at Ridge Street, which is less than the max height of 52, so we're not asking, there is no ability to ask for increased height.

And this is well under the max height of 142 feet, which would be allowable under the proposed future zoning ordinance.

The dogleg condition of the site as it wraps behind the fire station will remain open for a private playground in the near term and the possibility of expansion at that point in the probably distant future, meaning 15 or 20 years out, which is sort of the cycle at which Salvation Army has redeveloped for the last 50, 60 years.

Yeah, I think that might make sense.

Let's talk through the SEP first and then we can talk about your questions about the building.

And this is not a, it's a little bit different because it's not an application, but I will, I think that given the prominence of this project, we should definitely make space for public questions and comment.

Do we have any public questions here in the room or online?

Okay.

Any questions?

We'll speak first specific to the SUP request.

And how many visitors to the Salvation Army Park on 4th Street?

I've heard from one neighbor who does feel like there is an issue with parking along 4th Street.

And I think that's because the dinner service is when the Salvation Army sees the highest capacity of people on site.

So I have asked that particular neighbor if they were open to permit parking along 4th Street as a solution.

It's also one not in our control.

Or the applicant's control either.

If I were to spend the night there, I could park in the parking lot.

I think three full-time equivalents.

The Major, they go with military titles, so the Major just retired and is being replaced with a Captain Mark Van Meter who arrived in Charlottesville this month.

and he will generally run the Salvation Army.

He runs the Salvation Army, it's his job.

He's supported by the shelter program manager and then there's another woman, Brenda and Barbara.

And how about on Sundays?

Yes, there are people that come to the Sunday service that is

And where do they park?

I've got a question.

And you may have mentioned this, but I'm sorry if I didn't understand it correctly.

Yes.

It is on Ridge, sorry, on Ridge Street.

On Ridge Street.

Yes.

Yeah, I think it's just past it, but the roof overhang is in it as well.

Is that this slide?

The footprint?

So it is, because you're page 16 of your

Document, I think it said 0 to 10.

Or is, oh wait, I'm sorry, you're looking at the future zoning map.

Got it.

So you're not proposing any changes to the Ridge Street setbacks, you're just proposing a change to the build to width.

Okay.

I just have a question about, I'm curious about the building that's right behind the tree.

Right behind the tree, no, it will not have a basement.

The only basement portion will be under the chapel along that northern border.

There's an existing basement in that same vicinity at the moment.

The footprint of the basement is going to be slightly smaller than the existing footprint.

So, I don't think this one, well, I'm not sure that this has any portion under it.

The basement is definitely under

And I may put that to the side because we're going to talk about the SEP first so and then we but we can come back to that when we talk the rest of the building.

Any other questions?

Do we have any comment from anybody in the audience or online about the SUP request?

I can start I mean I'm in support of the the SUP requests you know as far as well parking is not really our purview but even if it was we're getting great parking requirements in the future zoning code

The future setbacks on this stretch of Ridge Street will be 0 to 10 feet.

So 10 to 20 is a little bit further back, but if their current design has the front of the chapel about at 10 feet, it's going to match what the future contacts could potentially be if they rebuilt the fire station or the Noland.

And yeah, I don't really have any concerns with the

Not building to the very back of the property.

I think that's a flaw in our current or our proposed zoning code that you have a required double frontage.

I'm not sure where that's going to land.

Jeff just left.

We do usually get to put conditions on these, right?

Or suggest conditions to the Planning Commission?

We can.

Some conditions I might consider for this would be, well, one, if the tree dies, that they replant a tree that will eventually grow to that size.

Two,

to review some of the streetscape requirements that are in the new code, which require a street tree every 40 feet and see if they can find a way to implement that in their design.

Also to review the screening guidelines as far as parking lots are concerned, so screening that parking lot from 4th Street.

Yeah, and I think at some point, Roger, you might have mentioned this during the pre-meeting, but I agree with you.

You do have a big blank wall that's about 40 feet long in front of the chapel.

It's got windows that are up above your head.

I don't want to put a condition on that at this point, but that may be something that just for you guys to think about as you're developing the design is what that feels like.

I know it's not necessarily the sidewalk, it's your ramp up to your, it's a ramp that's on your property.

So maybe it's the way you treat that planted area that's between the ramp and the sidewalk.

Yeah, so that's my... Are those comments on this special use permit, the modifications?

Yes.

Okay, because you were talking about landscaping and trees.

I was.

And, okay, with regard to the parking, or, I'm sorry, I'm just... Yeah, so we'll... Because there are only three areas that they're asking... Yeah, they're asking for a setback.

So, and I was proposing some conditions on it, because sometimes the Planning Commission will say, well, you know, it needs to go to the BAR, but it needs to materially look like it does in the application.

So that's why I was sticking some conditions on there, proposed conditions.

Jeff, the ones you missed were just that they reviewed the streetscape requirements in the new code and see if they can implement them in some way, maybe not exactly, but along Ridge Street.

Conditioned that the tree dies, that a new shade tree will be replanted.

I agree.

I have no problem with this sort of layout whatsoever.

I think it makes a lot of logical sense and it serves and it's I think an efficient land use while also respecting important parts of the site.

You know and then you've got the sort of

Was that a motion that you made?

We are, and I think sometimes we're allowed to suggest conditions that the Planning Commission couldn't, so that's all I was doing is suggesting conditions to you guys that we don't have to include in our motion.

Yes, we're just making recommendations, but in the past when we've made recommendations for SEP, they've been very helpful as we've reviewed projects.

For instance, modulating the wall on West Main or the pass-through on the code building

For me, I'm in favor of the project, and I would just note that some of, in part, I think some of the SUP request is actually evidence of this project actually taking consideration of its context, both in the historic district, the existing tree canopy, buildings across the street, and the adjacent neighborhood.

So I applaud all of that.

It seems like this is,

A project that is trying to make better neighbors within this part of Charlottesville.

Did anybody have any concern with it?

I think there's general support.

I guess the question is about the potential of these recommendations.

Okay, taking use of this paper that Jeff keeps giving us.

I move to find that the BAR recommend to City Council proposed special use permit to modify the setback Bill 2 and parking requirements for the redevelopment of 207 to 211 Ridge Street and that it will not adversely impact the Ridge Street ADC district with the understanding that the final design will require BAR approval review and approval and we recommend the following conditions

that if the large oak tree in front dies, that another large canopy tree will be planted in its place, or one that will grow to be a large canopy tree.

I'm not asking you to put in a full-size oak tree.

That the applicant will review the streetscape requirements in the future proposed zoning code,

and try to make this project compatible to the extent possible.

So the new zoning code is going to require a large street tree every 40 feet.

The chapel design is about 40 feet long.

So I would imagine that they could put at least one tree in that planter that they put in there, or two smaller trees or something to that extent.

It would change the design, but it would also.

Well that's like a four foot wide plan I mean that's a very narrow planter.

I think it's a certificate of appropriateness I mean I realize it's being

I wouldn't support anything because we think it's going to be in a law that hasn't been passed yet.

I would just, I'll just go out on a limb and say that.

Now Mr. Schwartz may think that whatever's been proposed in this module C is going to be adopted verbatim quickly by council, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say maybe not all of it.

but specifically our job here tonight is based on the current laws.

It just was a, I was using it as an example, yes, I can remove that from the proposed conditions.

Not necessarily saying they need to meet a future rule, but just saying that it was like,

So you could rephrase it as similar to what you did with 104 Stadium Road suggesting that council consider the following and its deliberations and I would say that the

you know as a special use permit those conditions are they really they do have teeth whereas the COA you know could be appealed at the same time all of these are things the three items as I wrote them down are are things that you can anticipate in the COA

and include as conditions of approval.

I think we all would want to.

I think Carl is trying to bootstrap that to our vote of no adverse impact, which I appreciate.

Well, and in fairness, I think that some of

The rationale for the setback, and I refer to it as the setback because it's the setback that has the build-to requirements, but this is somewhat being done because of that tree.

So again, a recommendation that that be in the SUP requirement versus the COF, I think that's reasonable.

I think that the reviewing of the screening

I'm not sure, Ms. Lewis is right, it'd be difficult to anchor something to a draft, but that the council could certainly

you know in the SUP instruct the BAR to that in the design review that the rear the parking is appropriately screened from 4th Street.

The only thing I could see Planning Commission or Council asking it is okay there you have

When you're talking about screening, you're talking about just at the entrance, either side of the entrance, along that south wall, and maybe some clarity on the extent of screening and landscaping.

Thank you.

Mr. Timmerman.

Aye.

Mr. Burrell.

Aye.

Mr. Zehmer.

Mr. Whitney.

Mr. Schwartz.

Yes.

Mr. Batke.

Yes.

And I have a yes as well.

All right.

Okay, and they are in there as recommendations for Council to consider.

Okay, thank you.

Okay, yeah.

I'm going to give a little short indication of why we made some of the decisions we made and then I would like to discuss the chapel comments.

So about the architecture, the stair towers in the base of the building are primarily expressed in masonry with significant amounts of storefront on the first floor to create connection and transparency between the interior and exterior and a robust active depth as promoted in the forthcoming ordinance.

to help activate and provide interest from the public realm on Ridge Street.

The chapel employs a butterfly roof and clerestory windows over a masonry base contrary to the remainder of the brick facade, street facade, sorry.

The chapel is insulated from the street with a taller masonry base which blocks noise and visual distractions at eye level for the occupants within which are facing Ridge Street with an elevated stage on the end that is adjacent to Ridge Street.

This condition with the butterfly roof and the clerestory windows allows natural daylighting, views towards the sky, and at night when illuminated would be a beacon or lantern on the street.

The upper floors are clad in cementitious lap siding with interest provided at the fenestration.

While a repetitive program faces the street, it's a series of apartments, two bedroom apartments, the windows use different combinations of aluminum panels,

with a faux wood imprint and glazing to create a varied facade with depth, color and visual texture.

We have tried to be frugal with the materials and the detailing.

This project is being funded by donations and the capital campaign is in its early stages.

The project is currently being repriced and the reason I bring this up is to inform you that it may change before it comes back for the formal COA process because of, again, fundraising and pricing.

So I'll take questions.

Well, let's go with questions first and see if there's just clarifying thing.

I have one.

The planter in the front of the chapel appears to be like a concrete in the rendering.

That was the intention.

So we are leaving the segment of the existing brick wall that is in front of the tree so that the tree is not disturbed.

Right.

And it's being cut right about at the same point where there's an existing staircase that proceeds up to the main entry doors at the chapel.

So we've left that staircase there.

We removed a staircase that we had actually at the south corner near the intersection because we felt like it was cutting into the tree too much.

That was in an earlier scheme.

No, there will be lots of concrete paving with all the sidewalks and as the brick wall comes across the face of Ridge Street, the idea was that it was going to be intersected with a concrete wall that's

the cheek walls of the stair as it moves up to the main entrance.

Because this may be too early.

I don't think we've decided.

I'd have to look close.

Exactly.

So we had in our renderings a taller, almost like a crepe myrtle, something that was branchy

I will say, I will just say for the record, I don't find the base of the chapel overwhelming at all.

And that's a narrow planter.

It's only three, it's 10 feet to the wall.

So it, three feet of planter, you know, maybe once you get that much soil in it, and then it's only a five to six foot wide walkway.

How tall is the wall where the ground is the highest?

It's in that range.

So the storefront that is at the first floor is seven feet tall.

There are seven feet tall doors along the dining room, which is behind the porch.

And as it wraps in this little entry lobby that comes over and hits the form of the chapel.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with the height either.

I was just thinking that it would be awkward if they were a little lower and you'd start seeing things going as long as you're looking out.

The idea was that you're fully concealing someone on the

One comment I would make is on the top left image, the sort of vestibule on the outside.

In some ways I'd almost like to see a more

You know, because of this sort of enclosure aspect of the church, you know, you can't really see out.

I'd be curious to think about, you know, how that side might just open directly under the sort of nice landscape, you know, makes

Give some nod to the historic tree, being able to sit in the chapel and look out and really kind of be in the sort of green space there as opposed to look through the vestibule.

Right now the vestibule kind of looks like it's snaking along which I think it makes a lot of sense along the larger building but then kind of the way it jogs forward.

It feels to me still, I know that you're dealing with setbacks, and I guess eventually we're going to have maximum setbacks.

It still feels like, especially when you're coming from downtown, that the chapel is sort of projecting too far, in my eye, into Ridge Street.

And, you know, it's partially because of the height of the brick wall, but it's also

The multi-story part in the back is more kind of in line with other things that are happening in the street and then you've got this projection that sticks out.

I think that would help a lot actually.

Yeah.

I guess it's just the open area in front of the fire station.

And then you've got Nolan behind it.

Yeah.

So you've got this wide open space with a shaft coming through.

I mean, again, future development, who knows?

It's a very elegant building.

I mean, I don't mean to, I think this is a really nice solution.

I agree with that also.

I don't know why that stuck out to me, but something about it.

Yeah, and I like the different materiality.

And on the other hand, I think the materiality that you're suggesting down below is like if you could actually get some kind of wood or natural material that has a warmth to it and appears to be contrasted with a darker sort of more

So the elements that are between the windows on the upper stories, right now we're looking at a product, I don't know if I'm going to say it right because we haven't heard from the rep, but ATAS I believe is how it's said.

It's A-T-A-S.

It's aluminum product that can have a faux wood print on it.

and they also make soffit material and column covers so the idea is that the slender columns on the porch are wrapped with the same aluminum column cover that would have the faux wood print on it to give it again more than the soffits, the underside of the soffits and the porches would also have that same

If I can interrupt, so I had to deal with this recently at the new Wendy's, which I reviewed for entrance corridor and the building permit came in and very different because the original was supposed to be all brick, but came in with the metal material on it and the contractor had it halfway up the wall.

So it was, all right, what do we got to do to help out here?

So it was the red, which actually didn't come across as much as I concerned it would.

But then it had a faux grained material that, if it had been in a historic district, I would have really pushed back against it, because we don't want the faux wood and things like that.

But I think it worked there.

But I would just, you know, I don't know if you want to get into that much detail yet.

But our guidelines really don't like, you know, as we dealt with earlier today, artificial things.

So I just don't, I don't know, go take a look at that.

Go tell me if you like the Wendy's.

I don't want to hear about the feather flags.

We were doing comments, right?

yep okay I just to follow up on the front I mean I the sidewalk is what's more important so yeah if you've got a you know ten-foot wall against your ramp it doesn't really matter to me I think my concern is just the the planter I think offers some opportunity for well I guess Brett would disagree with me on this one but if you made it a little deeper

something taller just to you know as a pedestrian in the city and this is this stretch of road is one of the hottest stretches in the city just everything you can get is preferable so if there's a way to make crepe myrtles work without making it claustrophobic for the person going up the ramp I think that would be better than nothing especially since they'd be lifted up on that planter so they'd be kind of like a little mini shade tree at that point anything to kind of get a little more

A little more shade on that sidewalk.

I know it's not really a BAR.

Well, it is a BAR thing.

Our guidelines do talk about putting in street trees and creating an avenue effect.

And I don't know that you've got enough.

Well, you should, within 10 feet, you technically do have enough room for shade trees.

But with the design, you don't.

We looked at putting the ramp along the southern boundary line, property line, but again,

Then we wanted a stair adjacent to it so you had both in the same location.

It doesn't have to be big, but just anything that could possibly overhang the sidewalk would be appreciated.

The design is fantastic.

I think this is great.

Thanks.

One of the other things I wanted to discuss briefly is are there limits to the height of the fencing if it's open?

So it's a recommendation.

Curiously, there are no fence limit height.

You can build a 50-foot fence outside of the district.

But to use the example you had at Sigma Chi House,

You all have the ability to modify the height.

I think because we had a neighboring property owner wanted it taller and it was the way it was.

It's as it comes closer, first comes past the face of the building, then closer to the street.

the intent is between the building and the street it's lower and certainly coming to the street that it's not you know a continuous 8 foot or 10 foot but you all can modify that height it's it's just a guideline and I think given the

Sort of the nature of this facility next to a commercial retail facility.

So I bring it up because in particular we're intending to ring the playground area in the rear with fencing and also have it along the northern boundary line to the fire station.

Yes, we are required to have a 10-foot buffer all along 4th Street because of adjacency to single-family residential.

So the screening, I guess, at the parking lot will also be taken care of.

In fact, there is a buffer there.

I have a question.

Yes, and it is mostly on the fire station's property.

There's a portion of it at the very front that has like a little

There's a planter end to it and just a portion of that crosses the property line and we intend to take it back down, cut it off because you're coming down the ramp and sort of landing right there so that it's more gracious as it connects to the sidewalk.

Just one other thing I want to point out, because I really love thinking about this

From a community standpoint, I just really love the idea of having this, you know, Carl mentioned that this is such a hot street, such a lively street, and to have that space, that sort of, you know, very much gathering space around the heart of this whole project, almost project out into that and do it in a way that's opposite of the old one, which is closed and

You almost don't know what it is when you drive by it to have that transparency.

It's really, I think, just a benefit in so many ways, so everybody connects with what's going on there.

And I wonder if there's a way to even enhance that a little bit more, like create a little bit more verticality in the windows or just do something that makes it even a little bit more exalted and gives it a little bit more symbology.

I really appreciate all the glazing and towards the Ridge Street side to be more open.

I like the size of the planter, the ramp behind, the look of the chapel, how it comes out to Ridge Street.

I don't have any issues with that.

I do agree that the exact tone of the fiber cement siding does catch my eye and it feels a little too creamy, but that's a detail down the line to figure out.

As far as the wood metal, if it was a full wall of it, like it is at the Wendy's, then I wouldn't

In this application, I really like the fenestration breakdown and then doing the wood look metal allows you to have the exact same finish in the window, in the soffit, in the column cover in the amount that it is.

It would be something that would be appropriate on this project.

The one thing that did catch my eye, I feel like the brick towers for the stair towers might feel a little heavy, especially on the south side facing Nolan.

So I know you're looking at budget and everything.

I don't know if you'd want to bring more glazing into the stair tower or if it would not feel as heavy if you save some money by not having Masonry go all the way up.

Maybe something to look at that might feel a little heavy, but in general, all the different pieces kind of come together really well.

I agree.

I think this is going in a great direction.

The only other thing that I'd add is as I've looked a little bit more at some of the existing photos and inevitably as you're looking to find ways to save money down the road,

is that maybe retaining more of the existing brick wall along the street might be possible and certainly any portion of that front

Landscape that can be retained is going to be another way of lessening the impact on that tree.

It might make some things easier.

I know it doesn't go all exactly as long as you need to.

On the other hand, you'd be harvesting a lot of brick.

There's good precedent at Westminster, right across the street from one of your projects, where they were able to mix the brick in and fix a retaining wall.

pretty well.

I still like the idea of a concrete or new addition coming through to the street being a new expression of the entry, but it just might be a little less invasive and a different way of having the ramp and other retaining wall behind it be a different material.

Keep things simple.

Any other things that need to be said?

Thank you.

All right, that is all of our agenda items related to applications.

I just want to share quickly.

Give you all an update.

The downtown mall has a constructed landscape with a period of significance from 1970s to early 1980s as a Lawrence Halpern Associates design.

See you guys.

And I'll, Aaron, John, I'll report to Matt.

on the recommendation, so he'll keep that moving, whatever that process is, but I'll get that to him tomorrow.

Have a good night.

So the mall was last Friday determined by the Virginia DHR State Review Board to be listed on the Virginia Landmarks Register.

and it will automatically now go to Washington for consideration as being listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

So a nice win there and as I think you all know that the mall is already on the National Register as contributing to the historic district but now it is

It's also being acknowledged in and of itself.

So that was some nice good news last week.

Carl's mentioned the zoning rewrite.

I might defer to him to just a few comments.

We at staff have been seeing things ahead of as it's been released and sort of offering some tweaks and suggestions and comments but it is now available or has been and it's the section that's really

It's getting into what the BAR does and how it does it.

We still have to go back and address the section that talks about the districts and their definitions and all that, but what I've been working on is making sure that the process, that we have a clear process for what goes to the BAR, what's an administrative review, and what are the things that

that I can answer the questions for and you know for example yesterday the real estate foundation want to paint a building down on West Main and the color is fine but it's working towards that's different from

that administrative review with the $100 fee and things like that.

So there's not, I don't think there's a lot changing in the BAR side of things.

I think it's in the entrance corridor primarily, but I don't know, Carl, for your seat, anything that, oh, I'm sorry, the one thing that you all could maybe

talk about is the composition of the BAR.

I know I keep throwing my pencil over here.

We had talked about, because currently the composition is as we already have it, that we have either a landscape architect or a licensed contractor.

And we sort of bounced around the idea of, well, it really is nice to have that landscape architect.

So if we wanted any modifications or suggestions,

that's one we could use some input on and I know I guess it's now's the time to speak up any thoughts on that

throwing you all under the bus here.

When I sent my comments into NDS, I included that, but I didn't include an answer.

It's closed as of Sunday.

But it's going to take them forever.

There will be public hearings, yes.

That's just for their comment for Sunday.

It's not over until council votes on it.

It would be good to hurry if you have thoughts on this.

Well suffice to say it'd be good for all of us to catch up and to review this if you have not already.

I just also forwarded, we did get some comments from Preservation Piedmont that you will receive in your inbox when you look at it.

I mean, it's not a document for the weary.

But this current division, Division 6 and 7, gets into the, and I have not gotten caught up in the block lengths and things.

I sort of try and say, where's the BAR involved?

And we've been addressing internally, particularly with setbacks, where

A great example is East High Street, where it's a very established two and three story buildings.

They're all 30, 40 feet back.

If suddenly something goes in and it's eight stories and it's pulled to five feet from the property line, can the BAR, the BAR can still say, no, you should do XYZ, but the question is really, but if counsel's just gonna, you know,

If there's an appeal and counsel says we're not listening to BAR, which is trying to get some

We did have a conversation about that briefly during some work session in the past.

And I apologize, I'm trying to find the email that Rick just mentioned, and apparently it went to spam.

So I mentioned the fact that, yeah, downtown, you can have up to 10 stories.

And it may not be appropriate everywhere, but it just let the BAR do their thing and decide when it is appropriate.

So I think we're potentially OK. Yeah, that's what I'm sensing, is to sort of strengthen that language of,

that what's currently there that something that a prevailing design you know shouldn't be just ignored that this isn't about and I even made the comment that in a meeting was like we're almost saying the you know it doesn't matter what's there anymore when when particularly with the entrance core or so much as what's what's here and and are we complementing it and and so I think there's

There's some language in there that will be, but whatever.

If you all, I think, reach out to us or go online.

You can read it if you wish, if you're really wonky.

I know you all are busy, but it's also, you know, we're all city residents, so this is sort of the, this is the design that we're going to be moving forward with.

So even if we're not involved in this design process, it is something as a resident of Charlottesville to pay some attention to if you like.

So that's, you know, we are expecting

Sometime in July, we've been told, nobody, don't take vacation, don't go away, plan to be reading this thing sometime in July.

And then, of course, yeah, that'll go through the sausage grinder again.

I had added a note here about, in my questions,

I was asked if, we're talking a lot about murals and things lately and an idea was floated of can, I'll try to make it as generic as possible, can a wall be used as a sort of living

Canvas and students paint on it and express themselves.

My response was if you would like to do a mural installation and art installation, we can follow those rules, but that I didn't think it was appropriate to have

a concrete wall near Park Street become Beta Bridge.

I just thought that was entirely inappropriate.

I did offer that the BAR would, you know, creativity and encouraging creativity and expression is part of what we all do and we love to entertain the idea, but I just felt like that's something that was, hey, I'm gonna go out and splash paint on the wall today.

what was not appropriate and I don't think you all would disagree with me but I

I wanted to just get a sense, am I a curmudgeon?

You know what?

I think that's already being graffitied.

But it's that idea of in lieu of a mural that it becomes a go on out, we're going to go paint on the wall today.

And my response was if you would like to do a mural and have it designed,

and Art Installation, we can have that discussion.

I think allowing something to be a, what do they call it, a painting wall, like, not Belmont, did I say Belmont Bridge?

Jeanette's probably listening, you're gonna get me.

I think that just a location within a historic district that is

I suggested that.