Board of Architectural Review Meeting   3/21/2023

if you were emailing.

Anyone that's from Chicago and says they like bowl

Hi Kevin, I'm Ron.

Nice to meet you Ron, nice to meet you.

Bylaws, and then the

items that are typically in the handbook, including references to the state code, which appears a lot of the sections that Mary Joy had have been revised, so we'll just try and find the time to bring that along.

Ready to go.

Good evening and welcome to this regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review.

The way things will work this evening is that staff will introduce each item, followed by the applicant's presentation, which should now exceed 10 minutes.

We'll then ask for questions from the public, followed by questions from the BAR.

And I'll just note, for all of us, please make sure you speak clearly into the microphone, because that's the way that the people following along online can hear us.

After questions are closed, the chair will ask for comments from the public.

For each application, members of the public are allowed just three minutes to ask questions and three minutes to offer comments.

We ask that speakers identify themselves and provide their address.

Comments should be limited to the BAR's purview, that is, regarding only the exterior aspects of a project.

Following our discussion and prior to taking action, the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond.

Before we get started, I just wanted to welcome our newest member, Kevin Batke.

Is that how you'd like it pronounced?

Good.

Who just got appointed last night by City Council.

So thank you to City Council and to Kevin for applying and joining us so quickly.

The first item on our agenda are matters from the public that are not on the agenda or if they have comments on something that is on the consent agenda.

Do we have any matters from the public?

Thank you.

We'll move on to the consent agenda.

Tonight there are three items on the consent agenda and any consent agenda item can be polled if a member wishes to discuss it.

The number one is the meeting minutes from May 17, 2022.

Number two is the review of action notes for July 19th, August 16th, September 20th, October 18th, November 15th, and December 20th, all 2022.

Number three on the consent agenda is a certificate of appropriateness for 204 Hartmans Mill Road.

I assume that what you want is a motion to accept the consent agenda.

Correct.

Second.

Second.

Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Opposed?

I'm going to abstain just because of the minutes.

OK.

OK.

The motion passes with two abstentions.

We would be remiss without saying that even though it passes by a consent agenda, we adore the history of that house and really wish you luck and really grateful to the owners for taking it on.

It's a really cool piece of Charlottesville.

Okay, the first item on our new items section of the agenda is 506 Park Street, the First Presbyterian Church.

We'll have Jeff give a brief presentation.

Do you want to say anything first, Jeff?

I think it is.

How's that?

So I'll just, you know, this is a property that's come to you guys before.

There were the additions and work that was done at the back.

And there was some work on the front, involved some landscaping.

and this is a request for their memorial garden on the north side up against Maple Street.

I think staff had no issues whatsoever with the request.

It would have been a consent agenda item.

The only reason I separated it out is there's

As I mentioned, staff reported some questions about the trees on the site, and in the past reviews, there's been discussion amongst the BAR about the tree coverage on the property, so I realize that's not specifically related to this request, although a large tree was recently removed on the Maple Street side in the area where this was.

And then I think, not think, I also, just to add some curious history about the building, it's always a good opportunity to talk about things.

I received an email a couple weeks ago from someone that said, I never knew that Sherman burned Charlottesville.

And I think, well,

No, he was never here.

It was Sheridan.

So they're asking me about Sheridan.

So we know where Custer stayed.

I'm like, well, where did Sheridan stay?

Even though he's only here for a couple days, he stayed in the house that was located at this property.

So it's a kind of an interesting turn on things.

And so I was just going to encourage the applicant and I have it in

the conditions it's not a not a requirement just a recommendation that I don't think there's anything significant there archaeologically certainly not on the level of where we are with the Levy site and I can give you all an update on that later but just be cognizant of the fact that this is there was a house here there I don't know much about the folks that live there but if anything's encountered

So my name is Todd Schallenberger.

I work for Waters Street Studio and I'm here to talk about the Memorial Garden.

I wasn't part of the decision to remove the nine trees in the last three years but I understand that the city arborist did conclude that those trees were in decline and towards the end of their life

And so they were removed.

I did speak with David Forney.

He's a pastor at the church.

And they do plan on planting upwards of 19 new trees in 20 years.

Well, I think the only thing that I would add is that we are making a renovation to an existing memorial garden.

We're changing the pavement out and we're changing the planting out.

We're trying to help define the space a little bit better using boxwoods.

that are about four feet high as a framework and border to help define the space.

The space will be used for ceremonies and events.

And it's basically a small gathering space.

We're trying to make all the plantings relate to the church and be a white flowering garden.

We're proposing dogwood trees because the septals of a dogwood are in the form of a cruciform.

The pavement that we're adding is bluestone and concrete and there we want to emulate an existing cross that will be preserved in the center of the garden.

We plan to use native deciduous shrubs that would help play off the boxwood hedges and we have four magnolia trees that are in the corners of the garden and originally we wanted something taller but there's an existing overhead line that

Parallels, Maple Street.

So we're trying to keep the trees in scale to Maple Street and keep them more garden-like.

Okay, thank you.

We'll see if we have any questions from the public.

and Andy, you can just interrupt me if you do get a question while we're waiting to see, are there any questions from the board?

No questions, okay.

Any comments from the public?

Well, I'll jump in there first.

I really don't have any comment or critique of the garden as designed.

I think it's a beautiful addition to that landscape and fully within our guidelines and all of the direction that our guidelines give, especially related to use of native plants.

pedestrian scale, I think it will be a beautiful addition.

But I think it's important, the reason why this is not on the consent agenda is to take a moment to just note that the significant loss of canopy trees on this property has made an impact on this district.

and it is really whether it can happen within some of within the bounds of this project.

I think that there's a real need for considering canopy trees of scale to give back to the city.

And I'm happy to hear that there may be a coordinated plan.

I think that's even better than a one-offs here and there.

But I would invite First Presbyterian to let us know how that unfolds.

It is something that

that we should be involved in and help facilitate.

And I don't think that it'll be arduous, I think that it could be easy, but it's just important to know while this project is up.

The city, I guess, approved that, but... The two trees that I saw, there was the large tree there along Maple, and then one sort of facing Park Street from the chapel, the fellowship hall, there was a

a 24 inch, it wasn't identified, it was a 24 inch tree in the prior reviews that was supposed to stay and it's now, I mean, there's something new there, it just hadn't been reviewed by you all.

So I think it was just, again, I remember how much concern and questions there were back in 2020 about tree covering.

Yeah, I honestly can't... I guess my... I think we do need to see a plan, like not just invite them to bring it in, but I think we need to see, and we need to see replacements.

I don't know how to orchestrate that but for the trees that have come down we definitely need to see replacements and I think we should be seeing a plan of what they're going to put back.

And if that means, you know, there's some discussion about, you know, not having trees under the power lines, that's fine.

They've got a lot of, it's a very, very big property.

Yeah, one of the questions I needed to get to and I didn't is what, if any, is required relative to the site plan?

And so then with that in mind,

it sounds like a deferral's in order with some clear direction of what it is that you all would like to see.

You can certainly express the deferral where you stand with the Memorial Garden, not as an approval, but that this is all, remember the COA, it applies to the property of the parcel, so we're talking about this whole parcel.

I think that it's legitimate for you all to

If there are trees that are going to be planted, you'd like to see them, then request that drawing as part of this request and bundle it together.

Unless, Brett, do you think there's any timing issues relative to plantings or anything?

That's a good question.

I'm not sure how to answer that.

But I do know that the church is committed to being good partners of North Downtown and providing trees along Park Street.

It's an important entrance corridor.

And what's interesting with the first Prez setback off the street is it does lend itself to a strategy where you can't have sizable trees adjacent to the street.

And not all business owners along Park Street where some of the buildings and houses are close to the street allow that to happen.

But I think on this site,

And maybe the language is not one of distrust, but more of just procedure.

Covering our bases.

We should see these.

You mentioned a very specific number of trees.

It's identified as a 24-inch deciduous on the prior review.

This large tree that is on maple is where

you know sometimes it might just I'll get a question and I now recall that this was about where the city foresters say what do you think what is what are the circumstances here so there are times where if a tree is dangerous we allow its removal the so

The 24 inch was removed, something was planted in its place, I don't know what, and I can't address the north side, I didn't really look over there, and then as far as additional trees or planned trees, I think that you all can request a plan, I think that's reasonable.

Well, given the recent loss of some really significant trees and that it appears that a plan is in the works, I think that it would be both expedient for the congregation and, from our point of view, better to consider the site plan as a whole.

said you all can defer it yourselves this first time.

So if we defer it, then they would need to come back next month, is that right?

So I guess either we're going to defer you and you have to come back next month or if you request a deferral.

Unless, does anybody want to make a motion for approval?

I'm just curious, is there any way to do this with the following conditions?

Is it you can approve the memorial garden subject to a planting plan being presented and approved by the board?

From what I gather, that's not a condition that we would be able to make.

I think what sounds like is you really just want to see a plan that indicates you know what's been planted new that might differ from the prior review and what are the plans for

And then I will follow up on anything that's necessary relative to

I think that's reasonable.

They can certainly, I mean, they said you all get to defer, regardless.

But they can certainly come back next month with this and say, we don't want to show you a tree plan, we want our approval.

I mean, taking it to

to the absurdity, but I think it's reasonable and certainly given the calendar they've talked about, I think it fits within their calendar.

You haven't indicated in any way that it were VARs as opposed to the memorial garden.

It's really just trying to document and know what trees have changed and what trees are proposed.

And I think with that then is are there any recommendations of

Any things that you would prefer to see at this site relative to tree cover?

Well I think the comments been made about canopy trees of scale.

This is, you know, I think the trees that are included in the

So, you all would need to make a motion to defer.

Yes.

Okay.

If you decide to make, ask for a deferral, you can come back whenever you'd like.

What would you prefer?

Would you like to come back next month?

Todd, give yourself the freedom.

I move to accept the deferral and we would like to see a general tree plan for the site that includes trees that have been removed and those that you're proposing to put back in its place, in their place, with the preference for trees of, you know, canopy trees.

All in favor?

Any abstentions?

Great.

Appreciate it.

OK.

The applicant requested prior to the meeting that that be removed for the agenda and I'll have a conversation with them about just make sure we're all on the same page if there's anything I do to assist them but they have requested it be removed.

I think typically we've just crossed it off the agenda as if it hasn't happened.

So, but I have the, in essence, asking for, I think, a withdrawal.

Okay.

Okay, so this is 130 Madison Lane is a fraternity house constructed.

James, you said 1908.

We have 1912.

I think maybe the fraternity was founded in 1908.

Well, it's always a roll of the dice sometimes on these construction dates.

And it was constructed for this fraternity.

It's Georgian Revival brick with door columns and a flat portico roof, except for the railings on the portico roof, which were added, and those on the main roof, which were altered in 2008.

We believe the exterior remains relatively unchanged since the construction.

It is one of the earliest fraternity houses at the university according to the National Register nomination.

The request here, and just a little bit of background, there have been

The side patio area and rear patio was something the BAR approved back in 2008 and 2007.

Most of this project seems to be kind of just some maintenance and repair to what was installed back then, not necessarily alterations, but just patio decking.

The two big questions are about the, I call it a widow's walk, but that's not, I don't think that's the appropriate term for this, but the railing up on the main roof, which had been at Chippendale Design, the applicant had done the research, sort of determined what that, what a reconstruction of that would be, and has,

proposed a reconstruction using wood.

We had, as BAR discussed earlier at the preliminary meeting, that we've approved in the past a composite material railing that was of a similar design, so I've offered that to the applicant and you all can have that discussion.

I don't know if there's a preference, but if that allows them some flexibility, you can express that.

and the other big question is that this is a sleet roof of which the portion of it above the portico was replaced in 2008 and that primarily due to activity on the roof as

most of us that were in fraternities know we go we're not supposed to go but that's a lot of activity on that roof and caused those shingles to have to be replaced.

The remainder of the slate is in very poor shape given that Kevin did some drone photos and actually I didn't share all the photos but looking at the ones they took with the drone very detailed it's a beat up roof and

So they're proposing to replace the remainder of the slate with a faux slate product.

The discussion earlier was whether to go with the mitered corners on the hips or as they've requested to go with a metal cap.

And then there would be just repairs done to the round dormers that exist on the house if you can looking at the photos.

and I can certainly call up other images if you want.

But that's just really due to repair on the flashing of at the dormer.

So we have in the past approved the replacement of slate with a faux slate material.

I know you all had some questions about this.

The more so not from

what it looks like, but how it would operate as a mitered hip so you can have that conversation with the applicant.

I think I laid out in here my questions, sort of looking at the images, sort of struggling with how we treat the slate roof.

There was one question I did point out in the staff report.

There was nothing about the slate being replaced on that front section, but there is a drawing in one of the 2008 submittals with a simple note about replacing it.

So whether or not it was discussed specifically or not, it was part of what was presented.

And I think, I'll just say this is one of those where you want to use the right words.

We say restoration of this railing.

It's actually a reconstruction or a recreation of it because the original is gone.

So with that, do you all have any questions for me?

And thank you for coming early.

I won't complain about that.

Good evening, my name is Kevin Schafer.

I'm the Charlottesville Studio Director for Design and Develop.

Thank you, Jeff, as always, for that introduction and that thorough staff report.

Would it be possible to get the slideshow up?

Would you like the drone photos?

We can just jump to the next slide.

The primary goals of the proposal in front of you this evening is to address some deferred maintenance items to ensure water tightness and longevity of the structure and also to restore the historic railing or recreate the historic railing at the crow's nest at the top of the structure.

The slide here identifies kind of the areas of the proposed work and also how the terminology of the crow's nest that we will use throughout this presentation.

Next slide.

The membrane on the crow's nest is beyond its lifespan and in need of replacement, and so though this isn't visible from the public right away, this does give us the opportunity to take advantage of restoring this historic railing.

The original railing on the crow's nest has at some point in time been removed and replaced with a welded metal railing that is not historic or appropriate.

and because we understand the importance of replicating a historic element not through conjecture, I just want to take a quick moment to talk through our process on recreating the historic railing.

Next slide.

First, the existing building was scanned with a 3D point cloud scanner both inside and out for an accurate understanding of the existing conditions and a digital record of the structure.

Next, we modeled the historic structure off the point cloud to ensure confidence in our digital replication of this existing structure.

And with this 3D model created digitally, we are able to align our model and some found historic imagery at the same angle in perspective.

Next slide.

These historic photos are high quality scans of the original negatives that were found in UVA's Holsinger's collection.

And they were taken in March 1919 and sometime in 1924.

From this model and photo alignment, we are able to produce an accurate replication of the original railing, again, confident in our analysis on proportion, sizing of the railing members, and specific motifs found on this original architectural element.

Next slide.

It's important to note that this area is not an occupiable space, and so this railing is not required to meet building code standards for a guardrail.

It is indeed lower than what the guardrail requirements would be for today and have openings that are bigger than what's allowed.

But because this is an unoccupiable space, this is simply an architectural element, and we have no concerns about meeting building code requirements.

Next slide.

So the restoration we're proposing, or replication, will be done using Akoya wood, which is a pine species from the Netherlands that has undergone a modification process that turns the Radiata pine into an exceptionally stable wood.

This product has been used at UVA in restorations of railings on the lawn, and it was recommended to us for this application, which will be very exposed up on the crow's nest of the roof.

We'll be specifying stainless steel screws for fasteners, mortise and tenon joints for the top and bottom rails, and we aim to ensure high quality priming and painting on a routine maintenance schedule because the goal here is to ensure a high quality railing restoration or replication that will look good for the foreseeable future.

Next slide.

Regarding the slate roof and understanding that this may be the subject of the most scrutiny given recent VAR rulings and just the historic nature of this tile, I do want to convey to the board that St.

Elmo's Hall has carefully and deliberately considered the state of the roof before making this request.

So after extensive review and consultation with roofing subcontractors, architects, historians,

The owners feel that replacement with a synthetic slate is the best path forward to ensuring the longevity of this structure.

The slate, as Mr. Warner has noted, is in poor condition.

It's been subject to wear and tear over the past 110, 115 years that is more intense than a normal slate roof would undergo.

and also as mentioned in the staff report, there's irregularities in the tiles, there's odd tile shapes and there's random placement of tiles, perhaps lending to Mr. Werner's theory that this could potentially be a salvaged roof upon original installation.

Next slide.

So like I said, in an effort to better understand the existing conditions and study the roof more carefully, we did do the aerial drone footage to try and get some detail shots and evaluate each facade carefully.

These images show broken and cracked slate tiles that are prominent on all sides of the roof.

Next slide.

Particularly concerning from my perspective is the patchwork that the project has already undergone.

This large portion on the western facade is out of synthetic slate.

These are around the trouble areas where the slate has undergone more wear and tear as students have transversed to the crow's nest over the years.

And so that's why you're seeing the synthetic slate replacement in this location done in 2008.

Next slide.

And in fact, what we see on all sides is some form of patching, particularly around the typical trouble areas that you might find on a roof.

Roof valleys, cricket chimneys, around the dormers, as Mr. Warner mentioned, have all been reflashed or patched in some way.

So there isn't a single facade or side of the roof that hasn't had some form of patching associated with it.

Next slide.

And it's been noted that several areas of the ceiling in the upper floor have had to be replastered and then repainted as water infiltration has occurred throughout the years.

The current St.

Elmo board president noted to me that moisture continues to appear through the paint in some areas and there is very limited attic access in this third floor, so finding specific leak locations is particularly challenging.

The fear from the St.

Elmo organization is that the continued deterioration of the roof will lead to rot within the structural elements and a roof replacement will eventually become much more invasive and extensive.

Next page.

It is important to note that in order to restore the slates and ensure the water tightness on the roof, we did attempt to source Buckingham Slates.

Buckingham Slate is currently not available for roof tiles, as the current deposit is, and I'll quote here from their website, better suited for the production of flagstone, decorative stone, and hardscape products.

So that just kind of presents another logistical challenge in sourcing a Buckingham slate roof tile at this time Next slide

We know there are challenges to the synthetic slate, mainly around the trim details that Mr. Warner has identified.

Because of the hollow core of synthetic slate, a mitered hip corner becomes very challenging, if not impossible.

The existing house does have that mitered hip corner, but it has been identified also as an area of a leak concern location.

It's also been identified by city staff as a

to potentially rectify leaks in the future.

So we are suggesting that hip ridge tile, as Mr. Warner mentioned, but we are open to the board's guidance on the preferred hip detail with the synthetic slate.

There are two options, a hip ridge tile or we can have an exposed metal flashing.

We are proposing all copper flashing, particularly around the crow's nest.

You'll have some exposed copper there.

Around the valley in the rear, there's exposed copper flashing.

So it could be a design solution to have an exposed copper hip ridge along all four sides.

Next slide.

We are aware that the board reviews each application individually.

A solution that has precedent on adjacent structures in this Madison Lane ADCD district ADCD is the implementation of this high quality synthetic slate, though, including at 123 Chancellor Street and 167 Chancellor Street.

Furthermore, when you consider the application individually, the poor condition of the existing slate, the recent water infiltration, and the previously performed patchwork with synthetic slate all makes this individual application all the more logical and appropriate from my perspective.

Next slide.

And at the rear deck, which is probably an area less controversial or interesting, is these images show our selective demolition that we did at the rear deck.

The sleepers have rotted here, the rigid insulation has compressed, and the drainage plane is full of debris, so we aim to restore the deck and ensure water tightness there.

It should be noted that the deck is above a 1984 subgrade expansion of the basement and is not part of the original 1916-1912 structure.

The deck boards were replaced in 2008 and we aim to go back with Trek's product as well.

And finally, on the next slide, the final portion of the project is an outdoor kitchen which is located on the western portion of the exterior patio.

The outdoor kitchen is screened by existing dense mature shrubs and will sit within the existing non-historic steel railing that bounds the exterior patio.

The outdoor kitchen is held off of the historic structure and the existing site walls by an amount that allows for debris removal but also allows for safe demolition in case the kitchen is no longer desired in the future.

So in conclusion and on the next slide, as I mentioned initially, the goals of this renovation are to promote the replication of this lost architectural element we think would be much more in keeping with the historic structure and to address these deferred maintenance items in an effort to preserve and protect this historic structure for the next hundred years.

We believe all the areas of the scope in this proposal are within the ADCD guidelines and we hope you'll take note of the care that our client has gone to faithfully and accurately restore the original railing in a high quality manner.

Please also note that the client did seriously debate the necessity for the requestment for the slate replacement.

And after much debate and internal discussion, really does feel like this request is the most appropriate for ensuring that longevity.

Thank you, Mr. Shaver.

I'll ask first for any questions from the public.

Just let us know, Andy, if any come in.

Mr. Chair, I just want to recognize that this is my fraternity, and I was a former member of the board of directors, but I'm no longer a member of the board of directors, and I will not benefit financially in any way from this project.

No, this will be a holistic replacement and reflashing.

That's a good question.

I've got a question about gutters and downspouts.

The original copper gutters and downspouts are to remain.

So no, we're not requesting that.

There is one gutter that's been damaged on the rear exterior of the patio.

It is not in the public view, public right-of-way view, and it would just be replacing in kind.

More a maintenance item than anything else.

The hip joints?

Yes, there's two hip details that are available in a synthetic slate.

The first is a

a hip cap tile, which is a 90 degree or whatever angle you need it to be for the hip that covers that joint of the tiles as they come together.

And because of the hollow core of a synthetic slate tile, we can't cut that edge and form a miter.

It affects the structural stability.

So that's why we have to look to these alternatives.

The other would be an exposed metal flashing cap that goes down that ridge.

I think we have that in this presentation, if you could scroll through.

Somewhere in there.

If we could pull it up, that would be great.

There it is.

page 13 of this document.

If you guys have a minute, I've got the product website up and I can email it to you guys and there's a picture of what the hips look like on there.

This might not be a question for you, but in looking at that detail, I'm just curious if there's a detail where the lines of that cap sort of extend, you know, so that they're aligned with the rest of the tiles on either side.

I don't know if that's a possibility.

Other questions?

That's correct.

And the rigid insulation that provides the pitch for that.

We're actually increasing the pitch slightly.

The ridge wouldn't be visible from the street or anything like that, but we're taking it.

I think it might be an eighth now, but the rigid insulation has been compressed over the years.

Probably taking that to at least a quarter, but potentially a half.

I will say I love the new railing, the idea of restoring it to that.

I think it's a great, great improvement.

Great.

One more question about the railing.

So that one wasn't there originally.

That was added sometime in the 80s, I believe.

Later than that.

No, please chime in.

I know it's after 2002.

I feel like it's somewhere around 2008.

That was the fraternity's 100th anniversary, so I think there's a lot of work done right before then.

The best we can determine, yes.

So, thank you Carl for circulating the website.

It looks like there are maybe two options for the ridge.

There's a hip and ridge tile one piece and a hip and ridge tile two piece.

Where did you... I didn't see that.

I'm staring at it.

Rick just pointed out my screen.

The original intention was, and this may be showing the two piece, the intention was certainly for the one piece, just for the water tightness of that detail.

Yeah, that would definitely be preferable looking at the images.

I just want to keep the discussion moving along.

Any other questions for the applicant?

Or shall we move to comments?

All right, let's see if there's any comments from the public.

I'll just jump in.

I mean, I think of any slate roof that does deserve to be replaced.

This one meets the requirements.

So yes, have at it.

Obviously, it's already got synthetic slate up there.

So again, it's in our guidelines.

You can use it.

In the past, I was a little bothered when you gave us this.

I think for a previous project, you showed us this product.

And the hip seemed really prominent.

I think maybe I'm a little less concerned now.

Maybe they have better images on the website now.

I don't know.

I want to commend you on the nice replacement of the railing and going the extra mile and doing the research.

and doing the facsimile that replaces what was there.

It's definitely a huge leap above what's there now.

I don't know.

I kind of feel like where it would be nice to take the front one off above the porch, if there has to be a railing up there for whatever reason, it would be nice to see the two matching.

But I understand too that that might not be in the scope.

Well, I don't particularly like faux slates.

It seems like it makes all the sense in this particular case given the lead times and the need to prioritize protecting the structure of the old house.

I think the sentiment to replace the portico railing with one that matches the crow's nest, we'd be in jeopardy of like false historicism there.

So I wouldn't necessarily recommend that.

Would you recommend any kind of replacement of what's there now?

I guess the question between false historicism versus... Right, yeah.

I was at Poplar Forest yesterday, actually, and they have a metal railing that has kind of aircraft cable wires to try and minimize the appearance there.

I don't think that would be successful at this location.

I am curious.

There are actually a couple sections of railing between the front dormer windows that were part of a BAR

approval I can't remember what year but I presented it to the BAR so I remember it and Carl it might have been you I don't know or maybe Melanie that recommended actually painting those blacks so that they disappeared against the slate which I thought was a good suggestion so I don't know if painting the Portico railing black would

It's a good point.

It's worth something to think about, I think, is what got him away.

I mean, did you put it there to replace what's there?

You know, if it's not a kind of a replica of something historic, is there another something better that you can replace it with?

It might contrast with the overall style, so you know it's not

I'm supposed to be trying to be like the original house.

It still serves a purpose.

I'd just add, in addition to the commendation that Mr. Timmerman gave about the research that went into this, I want to specifically call out and applaud Design Develop for their application of technology using drone modeling, photo matching, as part of that research.

I think it makes for some interesting discoveries and development of new techniques that can help a number of projects in the future.

Thank you.

Would anyone like to make a motion?

Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including the city's ADC district design guidelines, I move to find that the proposed patio renovations and railing reconstruction at 130 Madison Lane satisfies the BAR's criteria and is compatible with this district and that the BAR approves the application as submitted.

Any opposed?

No.

Any abstentions?

Thank you very much.

Good luck.

All right, moving right along.

So what we have is a, Kevin is here, and sorry, should I refer to people in your last name?

It should be Mr. Schwartz or is Carl okay?

Yeah, you are.

By the way, you need to get an extension on that.

So this is a preliminary discussion for a possible hotel at 843 West Main Street.

When you cross the bridge on West Main, the first lot, there's actually a couple of lots there on the north side.

This is the second one it has on it.

I remember when we first moved here, people told us how to return our U-Haul to U-Haul.

drove to U-Haul, but this is where the U-Haul was on West Main.

The BAR had reviewed, at least during my tenure, there was a request several years ago for a

an office building there and after several discussions but nothing of that came to fruition.

And so Kevin and his colleagues at Mitchell Matthews contacted me last month and we had a good discussion in my office about how I saw things on West Main and I think what we have here is we're not dealing with

a 400 foot long block.

This is a parcel that limits the width of the front.

We know we've had a lot going on about, you know, you all have been looking at things on West Main so you have a good feel for what's there and sort of what the setbacks have been.

The caution I offered to the applicant was that I know

what occurs to the rear of the standard where it just sort of ends and then there's a topographically even there's a drop down to the 10th and Page neighborhood and it's curious that that change in

Topography's been there for some time.

I'm a little curious about how that, you know, what it's a, you know, is that a stream valley or whatever, but it's a rather steep embankment.

Either way, my recommendation was that this building, you know, recognizing it's fronting on West Main, that it not turn its back on, it not

present itself as another wall to the 10th and page.

And I think that's something with the Councilor Payne referred to in an email that he sent to you all.

And other than that, I say we've got what the heights are on West Main, you know what the setbacks are.

I think width is not a problem with a commercial building.

It is pulling it towards the street.

So I think,

There's, you know, I try not to read too much into a preliminary drawing.

I know that there's, it's kind of just giving the idea that masking and scale and not the design.

So I think, yeah, the other thing was that they have this, it's a looks like a remnant alley or remnant street, paper street on the west side.

And if that, you know, allows a break, I know that there's

Zero Lot Lines that you can take advantage of, but I think one of the things we've learned over the years on West Main is to try to mimic those breaks, the permeability of that street wall so that we don't end up with a canyon of buildings.

I don't know, do you have any questions for me on that?

Yeah, I just wanted to clarify that we won't be taking any action.

There's no action to be taken or votes to be taken to this evening.

And to that extent, the applicant can direct the discussion to the particular questions that they may have about the project.

Hi everybody, I'm Kevin Riddle with Mitchell Matthews Architects.

I want to give you a brief introduction to this project we've been working on now for a few months.

It's at 843 West Main, so in the West Main Street district.

It's about, well it's actually two parcels.

It's 843 and 847 West Main.

847's a sliver of a property along the west.

And so the two are combined equaling almost an acre in size.

We have about 150 feet of street frontage on West Main Street.

The site's about 250 feet deep.

If we could go forward through the presentation to the survey.

Sorry, the placeholder we have is the seal of Charlottesville.

It's been a fast one.

So we can advance to the next slide.

The one thing, and it's hard to see here, but probably on your laptops you can see it.

The one feature that really imposes itself is a 24 inch water line that needs a 20 foot easement.

That runs along the western property edge and then it turns along the rear as well.

And so if we go to the next slide, please.

Okay, this is just some basic zoning information for what it's worth.

Now to the next slide.

So here's just one plan view to help you orient yourself and see some of the things we're planning on here.

Because of that easement that's on the west, we thought that would make a very good location to enter the site with vehicles.

And so we have a drive there.

You can just, when you get past the volume that fronts on West Main, make a right and go into a parking deck that ascends somewhat.

Or you can continue to the rear of the site

make a right turn and then go into a deck that descends so that we can provide the parking.

This is a hotel that will have almost 100 rooms, not quite 100 rooms.

While we're here at the street level, what we have adjacent to the street is an entry plaza.

and then going through the reception area, we have a courtyard within.

And so we're trying to make some room for some outside spaces adjacent to the interior.

If we go to the next slide.

Here's a section just to kind of explain the project a little better to you.

So this is a buy right project.

We're not seeking any exceptions.

And the current zoning calls for a build two range that's a minimum of 10 feet away from the property edge and up to 20 feet away.

and so that's where we've located this front volume of the building.

We can have a, it might be helpful to have a little discussion later on about, you know, what we see coming with the potential zoning rewrite where you're going to find that in this district, this build two zone would go to between zero and ten feet, which is somewhat interesting.

That's going to be changed.

That's going to be changed?

Okay, good.

I don't know that it would hurt for the project necessarily to get a little bit closer, but we were trying to balance several things.

You'll see in some of the images later in the show, preserving some nice outside space for seating, for planting trees, but then also for these lower stories of the building to have this double height space that really opens up to Main Street and is visible to it.

Yeah, let's go to the next slide.

So now we've kind of backed away and we're looking at an elevation.

This is the west elevation.

You can see a wide opening at the bottom there.

That's where the cars would enter once they get past the foremost volume of the building.

Over on the left side of this image, which is the north, that's the West Haven neighborhood, and then on the right of this image to the south is the flats that's silhouetted there.

Now one thing I did want to mention, and Jeff referred to it too, is that we don't have imagery at this moment of the

North face of this building that looks toward West Haven.

And that's not deliberate on our part.

We just it's a little shaggy back there right now.

It hasn't we haven't really done enough design work there.

And so that's imagery we expect to show you in the future because there are a few streets in West Haven.

I believe they are

Hardy Drive is one where you do have a lot of views to the rear of this property from public ways in addition, obviously, to a lot of residents who live there rather close to the building.

There are currently existing trees planted on the West Haven side of the boundary at the north there.

Some of them mature, but this building at six stories will be rising rather high.

The top roof deck at the moment is expected to be about 68 feet high.

And the next slide, please.

This is the West Main Street facade.

And so you see we have a lower volume that covers much of the width of the building but not the entire thing.

And that's a space in which there's going to be a restaurant with double height spaces.

the four stories above that are set back, those are the floors that will have the guest rooms.

And at the topmost level, which it'll become clear in some of the perspectives later on, we have basically an outdoor space, a roof lounge that will overlook West Main.

So we go to the next slide.

Now we've turned to the east elevation and this is where we open up a courtyard and currently we're planning on potentially lining that courtyard and the upper stories with balconies that extend around it and give it some layering.

We also expect to have some trees planted there, maybe medium height trees.

We're still sort of zeroing in on some of our landscape choices there.

On the left volume that's closest to Main Street, you see we have an image, I think this is sort of an older topographic map, that we've put there just to offer the potential for there to be a mural on this wall, at least as long as there's not a building next to it.

We've built right to the property line there, so we're limited in what openings we can have.

We are still

We still do have an opening up at the roof lounge.

We think that would be nice to have another exposure and opening there at least as long as it lasts.

If we go to the next slide.

And then here are what we consider some exemplary spaces in Charlottesville nearby and buildings not unlike this one.

Very nice outside spaces adjacent to both covered spaces at the street level and also in some cases some balconies above.

The image at the upper left is looking into a little lane that leads to the Neroli Spa with a funeral home there on the left and the Publix Oyster House on the right.

And then you're up at West Main Street.

I mean, y'all know these places.

There you have a nice outside setting for the Oakheart Social Restaurant.

I think that's a pretty nice spot, kind of an exception that proves the rule.

Generally it's nice to have a pretty good street wall along West Main, but then the relief you have here and the opening there and the way it's sort of semi-covered, it's pretty nice.

We like too the way the historic houses have been left in the foreground of the Quirk Hotel.

And then down at the bottom you have the Hotel Albemarle.

I believe it was known as the Gleason Hotel for a time as well.

And the really wonderful sort of narrow street loggia you have facing on West Main.

All of these images were serving as some inspiration for us as we were designing this hotel.

If we go to the next slide.

Here's some nice historic precedents.

Only one of them survives, unfortunately.

There's the Linden Row Hotel on the left, which is in Richmond.

We kind of love the balconies there.

I know sometimes people see long balconies on a hotel and they reflexively fear, you know, a Motel 6 or something, but I mean they can obviously be done very nicely.

On the right, a couple of hotels that were in Charlottesville, very close to this site, but are gone now.

The Claremont up at the top right.

There, the building to the left, the red brick in that image, that's where Continental Divide is right now, to give you some orientation.

I also like too with all of these images the way you see sort of differently detailed and proportioned balconies and outside spaces.

The one at the bottom, the Queen Charlotte Hotel, has rather big columns at the bottom, a real notable base.

It's kind of interesting that Claremont Hotel has the very sort of narrow, fine, probably cast iron column supporting it, almost like something you'd expect in New Orleans.

Yeah, the Queen Charlotte at the bottom right, that's on the site, as you probably realize already, that's right next to, due east of the site on which our building is proposed.

And the next slide.

So now we're looking at the site.

You know it pretty well.

There's the kind of cool and funky old building but non-contributing that sits on the site now.

If we go to the next slide.

And then here's the proposal with the entry drive.

We think it's important that the paving of the entry drive be something other than asphalt.

We're not sure yet if that'll be a scored concrete or what, but we think it would be nice for it to have a nice paved quality to it.

You can see, begin to see what we're proposing with the plantings along the street.

The planting bed we have there, we're hoping to get that seven, even maybe eight feet wide so that trees of some size would have the soil volume to grow there and thrive.

We've carved out a little niche close to the entry point, which is also close to a bus stop.

We think that would be a good offering to pedestrians and the public to give them a place to sit down there at the sidewalk.

You also begin to see the kind of the big window, so to speak, that we would have on that double height restaurant space within.

One thing we're not committing to in this presentation, you might have suspected already, is a material palette.

We're leaving it kind of neutral, subdued, vague at the moment.

We're not sure really kind of what color and exactly even what materials we're going to use.

We're making some indications of masonry at the moment, especially with the foremost volume.

But as you get to the portion that steps back and up,

There's some indications of panels on there.

We're just not sure what we're going to be doing with those yet.

We wanted to have the discussion centered more around the massing of the building for the time being.

Go to the next slide.

Here we are looking from the bridge and the next slide, please.

and this is the building at least as you know what it might be like as long as there's nothing constructed next to it.

So you would have a lot of visibility back to that courtyard for some indefinite period as well as the balcony spaces that line the rooms up there.

And the next slide.

Here's the idea of some potential mural.

I think we like the idea at the moment of something quite abstract, but who knows?

Talking maybe to some local artists to execute a mural there specific to someone who lives here in Charlottesville and to the community we think could be a good idea.

And the next slide.

This is not to scare you so much as just to remind you that there could be some building very similar in height and massing to this building down the road.

And so much of what you're seeing there could be totally obscured in the future.

But we also like the idea that in carving out the courtyard in this building, it might encourage someone who builds next door to carve out a sibling to it.

so that it would only expand the internal open space that you could have on potentially two buildings rather than just one.

And the next slide.

Here we are kind of directly across West Main Street.

We're probably standing kind of right in front of the corner of the flats.

And the next slide.

So we're expecting at the moment it would be great to have four trees that would grow to some some height.

You know, maybe 40 to 60 feet planted in those beds there.

They would really be welcome along the street on the right.

We picture a kind of a different space, one that extends back a little bit more square in proportions.

We haven't really programmed it yet, but it could be a great little gathering area there adjacent to close to the reception area for guests.

Next slide.

and this gets you closer in.

So you see that the things in a very preliminary state but what we're kind of driving at the moment.

We have a lot of kind of linear spaces, a linear planting bed, a kind of a supplementary walk that would allow servers to come to diners outside but also allow guests and others to sort of percolate up and through.

We have recessed the glazed wall there a little bit.

You see here us trying to work some from what we saw at the Hotel Albemarle and the loggia there that's somewhat recessed, also covered.

We're showing at the moment

a canopy that's kind of more framed than solid.

I'm not sure if it'll ultimately pan out that way, but we like the idea of the way that it would create a play of shadows here that would change throughout the day.

You also can see somewhat, but we like the idea that at the entry where you have those kind of long blue handles that you would be seeing through to that courtyard in the back.

So even if the building does come along to the east one day, there still is this visibility.

There's still light getting down sort of beyond and through within the site.

And the next slide.

This is inside.

I know it's not so much the prerogative of the BAR, but just to give you some sense of what we're going for and what we're trying to achieve by creating the large glazed wall and recessed area, that that would sort of work in coordination with this space to create, we'd like to think, a rather nice dining hall and restaurant.

The next slide.

This is what it might feel like within that courtyard.

You can see looking over to the left, you're seeing just the beginnings of the bridge that go over the railroad tracks.

And the next slide.

And this is just a glimpse of the roof deck.

We think that could be a pretty terrific feature in the hotel.

And I think largely because of the location of the railroad tracks, the station that's there, it's likely that there's always going to be some manner of window that's preserved looking out toward the mountains here.

So it seemed like a good location.

for that for us.

And you also see we have proposed some framing up there.

That could be used for, you know, I'm not sure quite what.

Maybe holding lights, maybe there would be some kind of fabric covers that were used there to help keep sun off.

But we think, if anything, maybe that would just go away altogether.

We certainly want that area to stay open for there to be some visibility of sky through it.

Because you get that effect not just when you're up here,

but you might have noticed when you're down at the street you can kind of see up through the openings and to sky and we think that, I don't know, we think that kind of helps the character of the building.

Thank you, Mr. Redl.

We don't go through typical, since this is a preliminary discussion, we don't go through the typical questions and comments.

But I would like to offer an opportunity for any members of the public who would be joining online if there is anyone that wishes to make a comment or question.

Nope.

OK.

All right.

Well, welcome board.

You're welcome to go.

Any questions or comments?

I'll start.

I think you've done several really nice moves that give some relief to the canyon effect of West Main Street right now.

I mean, I think setting the building back a little bit more.

having that outdoor seating area.

I think those are all really, really positive things and I think that even though it was driven by the right-of-way, having that gap is huge.

It just gives a sense of sculptural relief in that canyon.

I kind of hope that when you develop the north elevation that there is a similar attitude about that.

There's a stepping back along Main Street.

Right now there's no stepping back on the north side.

It's just pretty vertical.

You mentioned it yourself, 60 feet.

Well, maybe I'm not following you.

I think they're zoned the same way.

Presumably they would be consolidated and the line between them would be abandoned.

I feel like you're talking about two different situations.

I think, Breck, you're talking about the Little Sliver Street lot.

You're referring to that lot.

Yes.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Right, right.

There's three lots.

OK, this is why it's good to clarify.

OK.

OK, that's helpful.

OK.

OK, thank you for clarifying that.

Another question I have about this the sort of property bounds is that it seems to some of your plans seem to suggest that because of the rear setback that in addition to the access to the rear garage entry that you may be able to envision a plant tree planting in that zone is that

Yeah, there actually is one thing just in case anybody noticed that in the appendix we were showing, these were kind of quickly dropped in there, some trees along the west boundary, which we were just discussing where the easement is.

I don't think, we're not going to have trees there again because of the easement.

However, because the easement does, when it wraps the rear, doesn't go all the way to the rear property boundary,

That actually is interesting because if you can't put trees on the west side of the driveway,

because I thought that was a nice feature, but I also was wondering if there's any way that you could have some sort of potential access through your site for just pedestrians, like a pedestrian pathway or something.

Yeah, that goes all the way through.

That's a part of the standard.

I knew that was there.

I didn't know it went all the way back.

And I'm not aware at the moment, along the rear or the north property boundary of this site, of there being any sort of walks or steps that are already sort of waiting there to receive a path from this site.

It would duplicate something that's already there.

Sorry, stupid idea.

Should have known that site better.

I'll carry on just to say that I think the trees on the backside are pretty necessary for helping to deal with the fact that you have this wall.

I know because you're pulling the building back away from the property line, you've dealt with the bulk plane regulation that's in the zoning code.

I don't know how that part's going to change with the new zoning code.

I don't know if you guys are going to get your site plan in in time or what.

I know you guys are still working on the aesthetics of the building and the materials.

The materials I think were a big hang up on the previous iteration of this site.

I do want to say it probably does come down to materials, but when I just kind of squint at your black and white views, there's a very, it feels like 1970s dormitory type thing going on.

I know that's not your intention and you've got some richness in there that's not really, again, it's a squint test, but just if there's, be cognizant of that, that you're not just making a big, flat facade that feels

The West Main facade, I think you have a lot of richness there.

You're talking about the West.

Yeah, and again, I think you guys are still developing your materials, and I think it does come down to materiality.

if it ends up being red or brown brick with stripes of precast in the middle of it, it's going to look like, yeah, that's just what it's going to look like for what that's worth.

I'm taking too much time.

I think you've

I think what you're proposing is actually pretty fantastic.

Yeah, and certainly on that north facade, I want to keep in mind exactly what you're saying.

One particular, since you mentioned the north facade, I just note that there is one specific point in our guidelines that we'll probably keep coming back to and I'll read it.

Along West Main Street, secondary rear facades should also include features to relate appropriately to any adjacent residential areas.

We're aware that there's going to be scrutiny on that side as there should be and again there was no intention that it was sort of a leftover consideration.

I think the Main Street, West Main facade is really pretty intriguing.

I really like a couple of the perspectives that you showed.

I think there's a change of scale that happens there that we really haven't seen yet on West Main.

It adds a little bit more big city stuff and then also just kind of creates that spatial dynamic, that layering that we haven't seen either which is I think pretty needed just based on some of the

I was sorry to hear you say that when you were showing the big curtain wall that you were like, well, we may do it, we may not, we may scale back.

I hope you don't because I think it could be, it's quite lovely just as this glass wall and I think the renderings lend itself to sort of again that

that spatial quality on that street that we haven't really seen much of yet.

And the same thing actually up on the roof, I thought that some of the detailing that was happening there, and I think it came across well actually just in the abstract perspectives, was quite nice too.

So I wouldn't pull back and just try to keep going with something that creates

you know layering and more and adds more interest to it.

But I do, I sort of have the same sentiments that Carl has as far as the east side.

It's a little questionable I guess.

I can kind of see where he's coming from.

When he first mentioned that I thought he was talking about the front.

I thought well that's

I don't see that at all, but there's that one perspective of the east side where it does kind of have a motel, it starts to venture into motel area and zone and then I wonder if there is another hotel or another larger building that's added just to the east, how that

how that would affect that sort of courtyard effect and be a little concerned about that being this sort of dark and kind of vacant outdoor space.

I wonder as an alternate, like if that were enclosed as sort of an atrium, how that could really be another amenity that you're starting to add to the site?

and then just a few other things.

Don't love the fact that there's a big parking lot right in the middle when you're coming through, but I understand that parking is a necessity.

Just wish that there was a way to make better use of that main floor right in the center of the site.

and then just the point about the access.

I think that even if there is an access on the adjacent property, I wonder how, you know, maybe an expansion or, you know, maybe

an alternate path down might influence what's going on on the other side.

Whether it's a kind of a more narrow

kind of a cobblestone path that happens through there or maybe it's a wider kind of a birth that happens.

I'd love to see some kind of a more visible or just a more interesting opening between the buildings that starts to create that connection that I think a lot of people are looking for.

Especially with some of the comments that have come in, certainly that we all know that

The whole site should be looked at kind of inclusively.

So I'd actually, in some of these site plans, like to see a little bit broader scope and understand kind of where the solids are behind and maybe what's out in front.

I'm glad you brought those up.

What we're exploring right now with the owner, instead of having the PTAC sort of unit you usually see underneath a window at a hotel, this would be a VRP unit that is in a closet and it needs to have venting outside.

and so we were imagining how we could create some sort of custom louver in a way that's not a sort of a standard one and that would allow some exchange of air there and also kind of relate to the tall windows and size that we're showing on either side.

I would echo some of the other comments about the south facade on West Main Street I think has been articulated pretty well and I think a lot of that goes from having the different layers and the steps and the different layers of porosity and I think that the courtyard space

could be really interesting and it's not really a space I think we see often in the city.

I think the historical hotel precedents that you have are really interesting and I think a lot of the success of that courtyard would come down to the detailing and how those balconies, the railing, the columns kind of all come together.

I appreciate the idea of the mural along what

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, in a way, kind of the hierarchy, you might say, of importance of facades.

We were seeing, obviously, West Main as being pretty important.

But actually, probably after that, it is the north facade, because the one on the west, it's pretty close to the standard.

It's going to be a drive aisle with mostly cars on it.

From the street, you're usually just going to get a kind of an intensely foreshortened view of it anyway.

I'd like to add a couple of thoughts on that.

I do think that the project really does a number of things that are both in keeping with our guidelines, but I think address some of the challenges of these large-scale buildings on West Main Street.

One thing that we're always looking for ways is that these large structures are

add to the pedestrian character of the city and so that volume that steps forward, steps down, creates places of vitality and life at the street level has a very transparent open lobby.

I think that's pretty interesting and exciting.

I think that the large implied apertures, what I'm reading is four of them, that include the open air spaces above the occupiable building are pretty useful in breaking down the volume.

I don't know to what extent it's possible.

It would be even great to get a little bit of reveal between the sort of implied front face and the secondary material where the rooms are and the panels with the shutters.

But I think that that technique of implying that volume is helpful in breaking down the mass of the building, which is something we're concerned about.

I think that keep, and I guess another aspect of that and why I think it relates to our guidelines is a number of things that talk about really suggesting and reinforcing a verticality to these, what used to be smaller lots and smaller buildings with a more vertical orientation.

And so I think that the current facade does that.

I do think that there will be moments, probably not in the views that we see here, but whether you're driving down, driving east on Main Street or for other long views that it might be useful to break that cornice line as the building moves further back in

so that it doesn't feel much larger than it is.

I think it makes sense in that front volume, but I wonder if it's really necessary as the building proceeds back, and maybe that's part of the conversation of figuring out what happens on the rear facade.

I think some variation there could be useful.

And then lastly, I don't know, it's a very difficult challenge, but I'll say it's a glaring challenge because that east facade is

It would be the biggest billboard in the city.

As someone who drives down Main Street at 755 every morning, that is going to be a bright, bright facade in the eastern light.

And because of the bridge being there and nothing in that, it's something that you come across, you approach for some time.

It is a really large face, and it's really difficult.

I don't know what the answer is, but

It is, it is and we talked about and are really still weighing a lot of options but you know do we want to kind of articulate the exterior faces somewhat, have recesses, use some kind of

And the way that this town goes, the better you make it look, the more certain we'll get a building proposal next year.

And yet otherwise, you know, it could be 30 years before we see something.

I wonder if, I don't know, this might get into the signage thing, but I wonder if there's an opportunity for almost a rotating art exhibit that's in a banner form or something.

Right.

Since I've got the mic, I'll just add in, I like, you've got a lot of what I'll call pergola motifs, like the courtyard and the canopy out front, and I really like the shadows that those play and then the rooftop.

I probably have less to say, but I do like the notion of a possible atrium as a way of having that courtyard preserved should another building come up.

I don't know if that's a possibility, but I cannot remember the name of it, but the hotel by the Jefferson, they're having basically a sort of courtyard covered, fitting in.

Anyway, we just approved it.

But anyway, I can't remember it.

Court Square, yeah.

You know what I'm talking about.

What did they call it?

But it's a lovely space that they're creating that way as a courtyard with a sort of atrium motif.

The other thing is just because I happen to be in Manhattan at the Cefatel dining room which looks a lot like this

Yeah, operable windows.

Not at the moment, but it's possible.

The client has been pretty open so far to the potential to have a beneficial redundancy of gathering spaces.

No, that was pretty thorough, everyone.

Thank you.

Yeah, we talked a little bit about the face of the building or the various faces where it looks out on Main Street and some of what we were trying to do with the plantings and the walks.

But it sounds like there's not a concern from anyone that maybe it's gotten a little too far from Main Street, that it's showing up.

I think west of the bridge, I think we've learned that lesson, that a good setback probably is necessary.

I mean, there's a lot of different things going on as you get up closer to UVA.

Like Stacey Hall's pretty much on its property line, but then it has that covered space outside.

I'd say, and maybe Carl you have even more lessons learned, but I'd say following a few of these projects through along Main Street, it's common to see the facades get flatter, the materials get cheaper,

and the amount of relief goes down.

And so it's kind of tricky thing.

I think there's a lot of promising things in here, but certainly that mitigation of scale to the pedestrian level on Main Street is really important.

Clearly we've articulated, it's gonna be an ongoing question about how this building addresses the rear and the residential areas to the north.

And the materiality will be pretty critical to getting this building to the right place.

And there's some guidance in our guidelines, but there's a lot in the context to draw from.

I think it'll be interesting to see where you land on that.

The other lesson learned is once the fire department makes their hands on your site plan, trees like to disappear.

I don't know if this is still a thing, but it would be.

No, it's gone.

It's dead?

They have officially removed it.

Thank you very much.

I've actually been working on something to share with you.

Quickly, if I may, I was just asked a question about the fountains.

Let it flow.

The fountain or fountains?

Take the fountains away.

The fountains.

So I want to be, all right.

OK, so Molly, I just sent that to you, if you would.

I sent you, actually, two things.

If you want to trace the picture.

So go to the other picture, just while I stretch my legs for a second.

The other one I sent.

So some of you that weren't on the BAR, but some interesting community conversation when 843 came forward, and the first question was,

I think Tim Moore called me and wanted to talk about it.

I don't know if any of you had seen what had come to the BAR before.

a Northern Virginia office building, essentially, yeah.

And so we've come a long way.

So just wanted to show that.

I don't know why this stream, I know my eyes are getting bad, but it's blurry and it's washed out.

So I don't know if there's something, I mean, we need to get up there and clean that or do something.

I think when it comes off of Patrick's

Well, they all went through her thing.

So yeah, I don't know.

Maybe there's a... Where did this, when did this come in?

Oh, that was, that was like, August 2018.

So real quick before I forget to ask, and I'm asking Kevin, but I'm also asking all of you.

So Kevin, normally we have, we used to receive hard copies of all the submittals and during COVID everybody got really good at

looking at electronically even me.

And I was the hardest head about it.

It does.

But if you need, if you find you need hard copies, we can get them for you.

The, so what...

I just got a question from my boss trying to find a resolution on the fountains.

This was an idea that was floated last year, but they've kind of given me a little official

There's the photo I was looking for while you all were talking.

Go to the third photo.

Skip fast.

So there's a photo of a railing, a rather typical railing.

There's all kinds of shapes and sizes.

This is probably the most minimalist.

So go back up.

So I was just over there toying around saying, okay, this has been the question.

If we put a cafe space railing,

And this is from, if they put cafe space railings around there, they can turn these things on.

So I'm not, here's the irony.

This is a non-permanent, I can approve Cafe Space railings administratively.

I would say that the purpose of the railings is to keep people with drinks in.

This is essentially too loud.

No one in, but it is a means to an end and it would not be permanent.

I mean, I would probably go for whatever I can go through the barriers and find the least obtrusive that we have and say replicate that.

Accessibility, ADA accessible in the sense that no one's going to inadvertently fall into that.

I wonder, but if

I would say from a, just looking at it myself, just the last few minutes, I guess from the rigidity of it's not something if it's a baller standing by itself, that's a corner of two chains coming in.

It's easy enough for that to go over.

Something rigid like this is not I don't know.

Yes, and I'll leave it at that.

That has come up, and I think this is a discussion that's going to be had in the committee that's meeting right now.

So the choice is this, greats, or nothing?

Plastic orange stuff.

Yeah, plastic orange stuff.

That's the decision that's being presented and I'm trying to, like I said, maybe this isn't unfair to just sort of spring on this on you all and I just want to say for the purpose of channel 10 viewers out there, just trying to find a solution while I have some brains in the room.

As far as my direction coming down from city hall, or city manager, this is an issue that needs to be addressed and the solutions that are available are to, no I can't, it's the

The barricades remain in place and the fountains remain off or they could install grates.

Grates would not be anchored into the masonry, allowed to be moved later without requiring repairs to the brick and stone.

I'm sorry, this is just an explanation.

So what they're asking is, yes, if we can do a very simple, more or less what I've indicated here.

I said I can approve something like this administratively as part of cafe spaces, curiously enough, but I think it would be

And the scope of this is the two small fountains?

I think it's the three.

Well, I think this proposal, I understand where it's coming from.

It would be easy.

I think it is exclusionary and not in keeping with the design intention.

And for certain, I think from my personal perspective, I think a great would be less

would be better.

But what I just want to register is that I really don't appreciate any notion, I'm not saying that you did this, Jeff, but that it's up to the BAR to accept or we won't turn the fountains on, I think is

Frankly, insulting, this is a condition that the city has created and that is not necessarily an accessibility issue.

It is a risk management issue and it just seems like it deserves a better design approach and it's too bad that it is being

Yeah, I mean, I appreciate that.

To be fair, it's a, it was a, this was a prior discussion that I'd had about what can I review administratively.

Although I always said, if I'm not entirely comfortable, I will, I will seek VAR input.

I don't disagree with you.

I mean, that, but I can tell you, I know,

the folks in the city that want to turn the fountains on are really trying to find a solution and there is a there has been a clear expression from the city manager's office about the ADA issues so it's a I'm not in position to dispute that and I think the folks at Parks and Rec are saying what can we do to turn these on here's we can do this we can do this otherwise you know and so I maybe don't I'm okay with

the rules allow me administrative reviews on some things actually it allows my boss that administrative review so this would be one there I'd say you know under the circumstances here's how you can say this so at least there's a chain of command I think the fact that it is not permanently anchored and that was our key concern with the greats and the fact that it's not permanently anchored

and the fact that it's minimal, it does at least get us there.

I'm not thrilled.

I think the solution, David, that you mentioned is

I'm just going to say I don't know.

I mean is it accessibility that we want?

Well, that's where to me would be, just in thinking about just, you know, as a as a system, if it's, if they're just posts that are standing there, you know, then that can be pulled over.

Whereas if it's a rigid system, it can't be that.

I don't want to put holes in them all, but I guess we could.

So to me, for my, none of you guys, I mean I know where most of you all stand, but none of you threw anything at me, so I know at least it wasn't like, I haven't gone total heresy here.

I think that this is doable.

I think it's reasonable.

I mean, it'd be more exclusionary than inclusive, but you could envelop the fountain within the cafe seating area.

So they already have done that.

They did that in one spot and is it barricaded off?

Yes, all three are yes.

I mean, if it's within the cafe seating area, it's not really in the public path.

It is still the public space.

It's not a private space.

The railing is merely the ABC barrier.

I would discourage that.

I think that already the mall has been privatized by those railings and that the message that those send is that that's not for you unless you're paying to sit here.

Oh, we're already there.

They seem to be willing to entertain that.

I'm not wrong with this.

It seems like you could create a grate that's like in four to eight pieces that just sort of you lay in.

If you do that, then it won't be keeping people out of it.

Exactly.

So does that solve your problem from when you guys looked at this before?

So there was, and I can't remember exactly, but it was a well, it was somewhat of a, you know, like Ron said, it was a you're gonna they're gonna go in there and never come out.

We don't like it.

And if city council wants to do this, then city council can make the decision to do that.

I can tell you that internally that idea of challenging the BAR, nobody wanted to do that.

They didn't want it to seem like that.

And that was, I think, a good call.

You know, we want to continue to work together.

There's a good relationship we have now with Parks and Rec.

Last thing they wanted to do was say, all right, fine, we're going to take our toys and go ask city council.

So I respect that decision on their part.

As I'm reading this, the letter is more

that it's a summary of what they had done and that you all had said note that you all had denied.

So as I'm interpreting it, they have a little rough sketch in here, but I needed something.

This is the general idea.

I think back to your points.

well made that this isn't a continuation of this cafe space.

This is something different.

This is not, you know, it's as short it can be, as small as thin it can be, as invisible as it can be and meet the guidelines and differentiates itself from whatever cafe space railings are there adjacent or nearby.

And

I mean, I've worked through this with my boss and I think the big thing for me will be if it's permanent, if it makes a hole, if it, then it's, you know, it goes to the BAR.

Just so I can put myself out of my misery.

If the grates were temporary, would people find that preferable to this?

Absolutely.

That's one of their concerns is to step down.

I think if you have that flush with the grates, which you're dealing with the bad design to begin with, so anything, you're just putting lipstick on a pig right now, right?

You put a grate on there, I promise you you'll see kids playing and splashing in it and having fun, and I think that's the point.

Right?

So I think the great would be the way to go and if they stay, they stay.

If they don't, they don't.

Whatever.

But I think the point is for people to enjoy them and actually kind of interact with them and you're taking that away.

But you're dealing with the bad design to begin with because it's a hole in the

I'm just picturing my kid, if the greats were there, then he fell in that one before.

I've seen him do it, but I think they'd have a lot more fun with that.

I'm trying to find the sketch.

I promised myself I wasn't going to talk.

But they're black, they're covered, like you see it everywhere.

I mean, the only other thought I had would be would there be a way to actually Elevate the blue stone the stone curb So that it's still that's part of the design itself and just were to raise that up six eight inches you might have to actually raise the fountain to to keep proportions, but I guess I guess my point is

Which can be done.

It can be done elegantly.

It's not a problem.

There's no design solution that we're gonna solve for tonight that is gonna get implemented in time to turn the fountains on for the summer.

So.

Nor is it our job.

So again, I'm in a circumstance at work where there are people trying to look for solutions rather than, as we've experienced in the past, doing whatever they want.

I mean, I know we have tree grates.

over, you know, they're popping up and out of the ground.

We're trying to work our way through them.

So we have a, there's a collaborative relationship right now with Parks and Rec.

And I think, you know, and now I think going back, because this is from the discussion last August, I had showed this one and I remember Breck, you said that just a completely different design circumstance.

So there was the, as I recall, the concern about the grades was,

Yes, they were likely to remain, but there was a sort of a feeling amongst the BAR that this was a complete design change.

This was really a shift from this open pool and that, as I recall, it was more the if council believes that detail is necessary, then they should make the decision to do it.

So that's where we were.

I think I did a sketch section, if you go down a little bit, to just

I still believe that it is fundamentally different and a great would be represented change from the design intention and Kevin, I think they

The history of these fountains and this designer in particular is about that interactivity with water and here the kind of play is that the fountain is two parts.

It's both the fountain and the basin.

The basin is a really important part.

It's like people put their feet in it.

They can actually get wet.

Some of this designer's other fountains are extremely interactive.

You're really climbing down into them and they have the opportunity of getting wet in really urban spaces.

Yeah, this is just the sketch I had suggested to Parker.

Instead of bolting it on top or laying it flush, possibly putting some angle iron on the inside and laying the grate set down on it.

That would mean penetrating the rock.

But maybe the other thing you do is build a frame inside of it and just set it down on top of the frame.

But again, I'm not asking you all tonight to revisit the

I think you stated your position well and you stated it in a vote.

So what I'm going to do relatively comfortably is talk to my boss about this is something that a railing we can approve administratively.

I can apply conditions to it and that we at least get a solution that gets the fountains turned back on.

Jeff, I think you missed the point that a couple of people have said that the barricade up is going to make it feel more barricaded.

No, Ron has decided that if the only way to get the fountains back on is to have grades, let's do that.

Unless it falls off, but that would require anchoring the poles into the, cannot make holes in my mall.

So, fair enough.

Carl, I appreciate your clarification.

It's just I want to make sure that I can't sort of de facto say, hey, the VAR changed its mind about a decision made last August.

So procedurally, we'll probably have to treat this in a little further discussion internally.

But I will lay these out.

One is, you all can come back and talk about

I think one thing that's made it our action on this a little bit more difficult is that the city hasn't articulated

either where it's violating ADA, because I think there's an argument to say that it actually does not, or exactly what the concern was, because some of the concerns that were, it just hasn't been made very clear.

because there could be, I mean, in my mind, depending on what that is, there could be other design solutions.

I could imagine a three-quarter inch black steel frame outlining the square that is

24 inches tall, just a single rail, a box that is placed over that child could easily hop over and put their feet in the fountain, but someone is going to bump into if they're not looking.

I think we're pretty, I mean, just on the ADA accessibility alone, are we worried about it being a hazard or that people can actually access the patterns?

They haven't made that clear.

And I think, I also think, I think Brecht's idea is good, and I think that we've come up with solutions where, yeah, if you have to make a few holes to make a better solution, that's okay.

I understand and that's where I guess I've been pushing on the reversibility.

I think it at least preserves the discussion for a different solution than something that goes in and then remains there for the next 15 years.

but I think you all made a very good point about that this that and I'll discuss it but if it were something of a railing that it reflects sort of an independent design it's not a continuation of cafe space it's as minimal and slight and small as possible and

based on supposition.

There's some material facts related and so the concern is that someone will trip, fall, roll into one of these and the city has a liability.

I think ADA is always difficult to explain because it's not a, it's a federal rule about accessibility.

There are guidelines and things that say you should do this or that, but there is the key concern is that the

belief that this is a potential liability is potentially dangerous from an ADA, you know, lawsuit or ADA injury, etc.

So that's where we are.

So I said, I don't I know, I've been given some details about all this provision, that provision, I think, yes, it would probably be solved.

If they walk if they took away the cafe spaces adjacent to the fountains, that would be but I my suspicion is that wouldn't

I don't think I had anything else on here.

Any questions that we do not have, we have a full BAR.

We do have the appeal for 104 Stadium Road.

I will get to that.

At some point we have also an entrance corridor approval on JPA that was appealed, so I have to get to that.

We have a lot going on.

I'm actually trying to

not work this coming Thursday and Friday.

I'm going to do everything I can to not work.

So if you all have any questions, ask me tonight or tomorrow.

I wish I could find a way to say the BAR is taking a break for a month because I need it, but I don't think we're allowed to do that.

Someday I'll bring the mall cafe lights.

We've been joking about how that's always on the draft agenda.

We were going to start calling it the mall string cheese.

We were thinking different things just to see if you guys would notice that we had it on there.

But we will get to that.

And I think a lot of this stuff, mall related, is going to continue to come out in discussions with the work group that the city is convening.

Anything for me?

I'd like to just say a word of gratitude to all of you on this board, especially over the last several weeks and with the conversations with the solar panels and other recent denials.

taking some arrows.

I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what we do and how we do it and it's somewhat of a thankless job and I know for a fact that everyone here puts in a tremendous amount of time and energy and has been open-minded in considering these applications.

I want to thank you all for the way that you conduct your business.

and if our job is thankless, I think the staff support for this committee is often not given the gratitude and thanks that it deserves and it is a tremendous amount of work that doesn't stop.

There's hardly any vacation and

My daughter just bought a house up near Annapolis and she's like dad you can come up and I'm like

I mean really things are that busy and that's why I think what I would ask all of you is if you could, I know Molly is finally fully on this job, her replacement is settled in, but really to get these things posted

that Monday or Tuesday ahead but really that you guys take a look and say you know let me know if there's any questions let me know we can tackle going into it and the

I think the thing that I learned last night, just to reflect on, I don't know if we mentioned, but Council did overturn the denial for the church solar panels.

It was an interesting discussion.

But what I walked away with and Brecht there as well is that I, myself,

I have not done a good job of communicating to counsel what we do.

I continue to hear that the BAR doesn't allow things, the PAR slows things down, we're not creative, you know, and it's kind of like that's how I need to do a better job of letting folks know, I think what, how many denials in the last couple of years, only a few.

Most things come to you guys three weeks after the submittal deadline, and we most things you act on.

So we are not, you are not a roadblock, but got to work on that perception a little bit, I think.

Just a question about this meeting.

Well, the guidelines are on us, and just probably could have explained that a little better last night.

So when I came on in 2018, we were in the process of, we would meet, I think, on a Thursday, you know, off VAR night, and had kind of a round robin discussion going through and reading, making lots of notes and edits.

We got so far in that,

Then COVID hit and then the comp plan thing

started over again.

And so I have funds allocated to do a design review of the design guidelines.

But then remember, that would be for the ADC district stuff and the IPPs, but also for the conservation districts, and also for the entrance course.

So now I'm waiting to see what comes out of this zoning rewrite.

Does anything change that would affect

how those guidelines would be written.

So I'm somewhat on hold.

I don't think it's just you two that needs to communicate better to counsel.

I think we're learning our lesson in a way just using the example of the solar panels versus the most recent one, the Stone House.

I think that the way that we put that into some context with the way that we denied it with certain conditions that we put into the narrative that goes to the council I think is really important too.

If we just flat out approve or deny things without giving any support

and of course the council's going to look at it and think it's just come up in the vacuum, but providing that context I think is important.

I am concerned.

I think there's a lot of slate roof buildings throughout town.

Some, like the Haven up here, the old church has some really wonderful detail on its slate.

has Slate now become disposable in exchange for?

And then that's why I offered the example last night to counsel of when people say, well, my windows are old and drafty, I'm going to replace them.

Well, and I said, certainly there's a cost involved.

but is that you know where do those old windows go into the landfill so and what is it you know what is that exchange but there's the the I felt like you all and I did say to council last night you all had suggested to the church to consider a frame in that parking lot it got suggested a couple of times

but I, you know, so I don't feel, but yet that got lost.

What it was was the BAR was just finding a way to say no.

Oh, you can't do it because you'll hurt the slate.

Okay, we'll remove the slate.

Oh, you can't do it because you're removing the slate.

And so the perception was that the BAR was just finding a means to an end and that was to say no.

That was unfortunate.

All right.