Planning Commission Meeting   10/9/2018

Thanks for watching!

We're gonna win.

Yeah, I just fixed it.

It was like... Is who?

I'll do that, I swear.

Jody's not here.

I know you're used to being out there.

Then we'll start on this end.

Sure.

That is really the highlight of everything that's happening.

Is the bridge open?

Ms. Creasy?

I haven't seen anybody go over it, and I haven't done that myself, but that doesn't mean that it isn't.

Mr. Stolzenberg do you have anything to report?

I don't thank you.

Fantastic.

So Tuesday October 2nd I attended the CDBG task force work session for

and Sam in the NDS conference room.

We have a meeting coming up soon, but the date has not been determined.

That should be, I think it's probably going to be a little bit later this year as they are looking.

I know the school board portion will be meeting October 25th.

Ms. You have a university report?

So if you don't have that invite yet.

Mr. Mitchell is your rep for that.

Not sure of the agenda at this point.

So, Ms. Krisy, could you go next, please?

That's all I have.

Is there anyone that would like to speak to matters to be presented, not on the formal agenda?

Thank you for your time.

I move we approve this consent agenda as presented.

Second.

So this is the point of our meeting where we are at the joint meeting and Ms. Creasy are we going to have?

We have three counselors coming but it's not quite six o'clock.

So we will adjourn for the next six minutes or until council gets here.

So tonight, during our public comment, I'm going to gavel us back into session.

We will discuss, we'll have discussion about both at the same time, but then we'll have to do two different motions and we'll vote on those separate.

Any questions or concerns about that?

Are you ready?

And with that, I will be happy to answer questions or clarifying comments.

And then we'll have time for the applicant, questions of the applicant at that time.

Page 18 and 14.

Are we talking the rezoning report or the staff?

You talked about setbacks and a number of recommendations.

If the SUP was granted, these are some conditions staff would recommend.

The height of the greenhouse and the height of the store, those weren't proffered, right?

The height of the building is proffered, not the building.

So that was proffered or was not?

The height of the apartment building was proffered.

The Farm Store were not proffered.

Those were SUP conditions for consideration.

Thank you for your staff.

You're going to stick around?

Would the applicant like to make a presentation?

So we can go down to the

We can go down there and look at it if you guys can.

Visuals help in this case, so get those up on the screen for us.

Say again?

I'll introduce myself just so we can get rolling.

Go ahead and get that started.

She's been working with me on how we develop this as something for the community, and I'll let her take that quickly.

So yeah, the need for information on this small organic methods is being lost and I do believe that production farms are not really able to provide these services because they are

Could you give us one minute to finish up?

Go ahead and finish up.

Yeah, just the burden of time and money spent on educating community members isn't viable for large production farms, so I feel that this nonprofit could meet that need in the community.

Those could be based off of the rezoning or the special use permit.

So could you talk a little bit more about the greenhouse and what's going to be happening in the greenhouse?

So I realize that makes for a complicated zoning, but that's maybe the result of a complicated ordinance.

Did you say it would be run by a non-profit or you'll be working with non-profits?

I don't know exactly.

Are you going to cooperate with them, or do you see yourself as competition?

So I'm not at all concerned about the suitability as far as growing things.

And do you anticipate that that farm store is going to be open year-round or just in certain times when the crops are in?

You need a place to go to operate, and I think this could be that kind of spot where it's not on the main corridor, but as the activity grows along there, it could be a spot where some small businesses could occupy that space as well.

It is, reads not more than 15 years.

We're going to make it 15 years, yes.

This nonprofit you speak about that's running this farm operation, has it been established?

My attorney is to finish the paperwork for it.

What if it doesn't get established, then who's going to do it?

Well, I'm going to run.

That's for-profit.

a venture like this and have a go at it of being, you know, working with food, working with the local community and trying to make a business out of it.

I'm just trying to figure out, because right now the organizational structure of this is through a non-profit, so if the non-profit's not there, how would you organize the structure of this business?

So I'm going to own the property and then we'll lease it out for nothing basically.

Yes, certainly so.

Okay.

S.U.P., okay.

So that's the piece that the parks folks who wanted to go through, the owner didn't want to deal with them and so we're buying the property and we're going to grant the easement through there and then turn and go down through the forest basically outside the agriculture area.

Right here?

Yep.

In the counties?

Jurisdiction, but if you approve this, you know, rezoning this housing, I'm happy to stand here and say I'll grant that easement to the city.

the applicant to work with staff on implementing the trail.

telling us here, I'm not sure how bowling alleys fit into that.

It should have been taken out.

Or car washes, because that to me is right in the stream.

It's supposed to be crossed out.

So I'm not sure how those two fit in.

Well, to the extent we can, you know, modify that in the hearing here, you can consider those scratched out.

I don't know how that relates to urban farming, but other than that.

I left more things in there than I might have otherwise because I imagined, what if 10 years from now housing is not a precarious state and we want to convert a couple of units in the first floor to a studio of some kind?

And I see that art studio and art workshop and that makes total sense to me.

I just imagine those in the future being a good, not today I think we need to get housing, but in the future maybe that's a smart move.

Car washes very much concern me in this area, just because of the nature, chemicals or whatever in that.

I think something worth noting is, I think you guys only crossed out things that were by right, where bowling alleys and car washes both require a special use permit and you didn't cross anything.

I'm glad we had gotten all those, but...

Nothing surprises me in this city, so... Additionally, we couldn't pop out any uses that weren't allowed with zoning, so that's why a special use permit was an additional step, as Rory was saying.

If that occurs in 10 years and this becomes bigger than you anticipated, does the highway corridor, this might be a staff question, does the highway corridor provide for street parking if you see people showing up like they do for the downtown farmer's market?

But if they do, we can park them in the county.

So if that happened, you could park them in the county for short term?

You can pick up your produce and go on your way.

And what are you anticipating?

There's a need for all types.

I just want to mention, in relation to what we were talking about before, the by-right uses that were not struck, that we've heard concerns about from the community.

Questions from council?

Have you been testing the river to make sure that that is actually a viable kind of a

There's a risk, but much less of that here.

You said one side of the duplex is three and four bedroom and the other side was one and two bedroom?

So I mean, small units, small footprint, trying to kind of minimize traffic and just create more housing units on a smaller footprint based on building.

Yeah, because I was getting confused that it was almost like a student suite of unrelated people.

In the rezoning, 18 one-bedrooms with their own bathroom, their own private unit.

Thank you.

Is it going to be all at street level?

Everything will slope down away from the road, but not as drastically as it does today.

It did flood.

Even down there did not see any flooding in the garden area, farm area.

Not in this particular area?

Down, further down.

This way?

So yeah, it is a possibility, but I think one that if it happens once every 20 or 30 years we can live with.

Any other questions until we can open public comment?

Sorry, did you say earlier there was three and a half acres for the riparian buffer, so it's going to be 3.9 as the farmland?

I haven't platted that out to the nearest tenth of an acre, but it's three and a half acres and it's thereabouts that the county said, don't disturb.

And will the trail run along the creek once it goes down from the plot to the south?

I'm kind of, it's the city's call on that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So Steve Brown.

Thank you.

The timer will go off, but if you'll just state your name.

Thank you.

Anyone else here like to speak, please come on up.

Thank you.

Is there anyone else here that would like to speak?

So even if the Commission determines that highway zoning may be workable here, we urge you at the very least to take a close look at the proffered use list and gauge the applicant's willingness to limit it further to those uses that make sense here and are protective of this site.

Now's your time.

And it seems to me that when evaluating density on livability, we should take the entire site into account and include the acreage that will be vacant space with no residences, which works out to three and a half units per acre.

I said, is that allowable?

I didn't think I followed it.

But some staff thinks that makes sense to think about that.

So you're taking the square footage that's on the parcel that's in the county, adding it to the city, and then noting, is that?

Yeah, the overall density of the site, of the project.

the site and in the broader context.

No, it is still necessary, because I guess legally speaking it's only on the city portion, but just that in evaluating the impact on people, and in particular how it conforms to the comprehensive plan of 2013, that the development as a whole is rather low density, and in fact only about a fifth of the threshold that crosses low density.

right because we don't have any control over what they're going to they the county would do if they decided to rezone it and put I mean in the floodplain I mean well you know again I think surprises me anymore 100 dwelling units per acre their only access is through the city yeah I think that's a fair point

but I would think that that's something that should be mandated before a rezoning is approved.

Mr. Affleck, do those still apply or did you just leave those off or are they not something that we would need anymore?

But if you got to the special use, if you got through the rezoning and went into the special use, you would need to go through the conditions to see if there are appropriate conditions, if there's other conditions you wanted to add or subtract.

and it doesn't seem to have many

However, that's definitely something as you're looking at the standard overview for both the rezoning and the special use permit to take into account the concerns that you may have and how they may or may not fit within those criteria.

So really quick, so we should vote on the rezoning first?

Does that mean the SUP would not pass or could we approve one and not the other?

But you can qualify your motion saying we haven't recommended that the rezoning be approved, but in the event City Council should approve it, then these are the minimum conditions we think would be necessary.

So on pages... Yeah, it's a highlighted one.

It's the highlighted versions on page 15, but it is gonna be outlined earlier in the reports.

This corridor, the uses need to match that, and I'm not, I agree with the, I was concerned about the grocery store, obviously the car wash, and just others that were listed there, and I just think, even if it's by special use or provisional, if it doesn't meet what we're trying to accomplish here, I'm not sure why it's in there, provisional or special use permits, so I'll just throw that out there.

You're going to catch 22 there.

The rest of it I have problems with.

So I would be curious if the developer would be willing to modify the plan to squeeze in?

So yeah, that's a very good point though.

But we can only work with what the request in front of us.

I think that a deferral until we can talk about this site plan, what the site plan looks like, and how that site plan would mitigate some of the problems that were outlined earlier would be of great value.

I guess for me,

If the applicant gets a chance, I would definitely like to know the rent price points.

Oh, okay.

Sorry I missed that.

That's okay, but I don't know if that was for a one or two bedroom, and that's, I guess, one bedroom.

Yeah.

and we'd like to move this thing forward however it needs to happen.

I just want to make a comment.

We can have a work session on that.

We know it's a money issue, so somebody's going to have to feel it a little bit on both sides in order to get what we want.

Is there any further discussion on the rezoning before we move to that?

Can I ask, does the LID checklist satisfy SELC's concerns?

I mean it, the legacy has flashed out more, it's hard to say it's just a particular point.

So, I think we want, am I wrong in this, Ms. Robertson?

Or do they defer that next time?

Why do you want to...

The max 32 units per acre.

I think that was their main application, not their... That's the SUP.

It'd be like a new application, but it'd be starting the application over.

Let me ask a parliamentary question.

Does it do the same thing?

Affirmatively take action by majority vote.

And we all agree on it.

Well, you don't have to agree, you have to have a majority.

Or is that a de facto deny?

There could be then a motion to deny and someone would have to second and then that would have to be a majority to move that forward.

Well, I don't think the things that are being asked are going to fundamentally change what I'm trying to accomplish, so I'm open to that if there's a willingness in everyone's part to sit down across from a table and say, here's the issues at hand, here's the list, here's the ones we're concerned about, we can scratch them out.

Developers or come in and have a back and forth dialogue.

Typically that's like a pre-application review where someone brings in their idea and gathers feedback prior to bringing forward the request, but it could be the opposite way.

So are you asking for a deferral?

I don't want to rush to the end here and not do it right.

So we would need a motion to accept.

I move that we accept the applicant's request for deferral.

Question.

Can we add the work session to the deferral or does that automatically come with it?

Do we need to add that to that?

And then if you wanted to say staff here is your direction, that is cool.

Ms. Krisy, would you please call roll?

Mr. Heaton?

Aye.

Mr. Stolzenberg?

Nay.

Yes.

Ms. Krzyzy, would you please call roll?

Mr. Heaton?

Aye.

Mr. Stolzenberg?

Aye.

And Ms. Green?

Can I ask a clarifying question?

So those application modifications, are those still within the scope of that substantial difference standard where they can only revise things downward?

Does that make sense?

And I think the way you said it, at the 80% it was a cap or something of that nature.

The other wide could be able to afford it.

But also in your proposal, if you would just set that you're willing to accept at whatever that AMI is, 20%, 10%, 30% versus just the 80.

Mayor Walker, or Lisa, would it be appropriate to have Stacey at this particular work session to have the conversations?

things that are possible but there may have to be a distinction between what you do in the zoning regulation and then what you supplement your zoning approval with an agreement like a rent subsidy agreement from the housing fund.

But that would be a part of the rezoning proffer or be a part of the SUP?

Probably the SUP.

Okay.

Do you think that would work?

Yeah, I still just think even outside of our housing fund, there could be another entity that would be willing to pay just to say that you accept a lower AMI in writing other than 80%.

Is it appropriate for council members to be notified of this work session if they want to attend?

And if they'd like to attend, we can notice it as a public meeting of the council as well.

I appreciate it.

So you've accepted both of the deferral requests and do you want to move to setting a work session for this at this point?

updates and changes, or do you want to set this at an agenda time after any public hearings, or what is the will of the rest of the commissioners?

Well, me personally, I would like for staff to look at what we already have on our agenda and plan it accordingly.

Well, yeah, we've got to have a work session about planning that, yeah.

I've expressed that very often we overload ourselves.

Absolutely, because it will not be beneficial.

And I don't know if it's possible to do it in the daytime, you know, Jerry, if you could, Jerry, if you have a set, I don't know if it's going to be day meetings or you have your comp plan, because if you attack the 45 minutes onto that one side or the other, I've actually got a meeting, the next planning commission, I've got a hearing in Nelson for this country store I'm trying to open, so I can't make it the next time around, but I would love to have a daytime meeting, so we're discussing it at 3 in the afternoon and not 3 in the morning.

Okay.

So, and the deadline's soon approaching, so six would be pretty amazing to get in the next week.

I'm not rushing any submittals, don't worry.

If we have one public hearing at the end of November, add this onto that.

All right, hold on.

And we have the East High Street streetscape project preferred concept.

In November?

Okay.

I'll wait here and I'll come back up when it's my turn and we can work something out, hopefully.

Is there any will of the Commission on this end, Mr. Mitchell?

Would it make sense to have a brief work session on this or back and forth on this tonight before he gets to make changes so that maybe the next one is shorter?

I don't.

So the definition you give Matt would help to inform us as well.

Do you have any thoughts on scheduling that?

I don't think doing it tonight is a good idea.

I agree with that.

Next on the agenda is our long-range transportation plan process presentation.

Scared everybody off?

No, no, it was the audience.

It's a lot of information.

I'm gonna let everybody get back up here and we may have some questions as this goes forward.

Absolutely.

I appreciate the background on what an NPO is as well.

It helps me remember because sometimes I forget.

So in your packet also were the attachments with the maps showing the two, well I guess scenario one was

It's a lot, a lot of pieces.

So for those of us playing along at home, for the MPO website you can go to tjpdc.org?

Either or.

Do y'all have any questions or comments?

Having been kind of involved in the whole process thus far, I feel like I didn't hear you talk as much about the public process to date as I thought you might because it seems like it's been pretty extensive.

And that's been a really great source of recommendations that have gone into the planning process.

That's where the second round of scenarios comes in.

You're welcome.

This open house, will this be an opportunity for people to take a look at these scenarios and weigh in?

Absolutely.

And that open house is October 17.

From 530 till 730, 407 East Water Street, two hours of validated parking provided for anybody that parks in the Water Street garage and brings the parking ticket.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

That's where I'm gonna filter the data in certain ways.

Right now we've got oodles of raw data and we'll just have to see what comes from that.

That is a voting day, and I didn't think about that before I added that, so just a heads up.

That's the first Tuesday, right?

And we would still have the regular second Tuesday.

We just voted tonight based on that.

But that does seem to be the third critical mass day that we have, followed by Tuesday, the 20th of November, and then the 27th.

Other than that... Yeah, the 27th is past our date.

Are we still looking at 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. for this?

Is there a specific date you guys want to do that?

You know, what better thing to do?

Oh, okay.

My wife's project.

You could have the whole night on the 27th.

I hope not.

No, but I'm just saying, right now.

So that's a question for, you know, if we can get a vote in December and schedule in January, maybe?

Well, if it has to be re-advertised.

I'm hoping that the changes would be such that they would be more restrictive, therefore not so they're requiring a new advertisement.

And so depending on whether it has to be readvertised and whether he has to go back to the neighborhood, there are a lot of ifs.

Is there a possibility if it didn't make it for the December meeting that we had and we were met on the 8th of January, he would still be able to make it by the end of the month to council?

We have two meetings at council we have to do.

Oh, that's right.

Okay.

Maybe.

We have to talk with the people that manage council's calendar.

So there's a lot of... Council's your problem.

I know you did.

That's the problem.

So yeah, I mean, I'd say like the 23rd of October is going to be better for me, but if you've got your comp plan, work session days.

Do you all think this is something we could do in an hour?

So I think we could tailor a pretty narrow list of things about the uses, maybe the affordable housing and the stormwater stuff.

It is our regular work session night.

It is not all about you.

I know, but we value your opinion on this.

Okay, I would say.

How about this?

Could we squeeze in the other day?

If we can't do, how about the 30th?

30th?

We can knock this out.

So five to seven, we'll do comp plan.

Is that good?

Is that good?

The 23rd will meet five to seven on the comp plan.

Good night.

At 7 p.m.?

I got chocolate chip cookies at the, where's that box?

Ready to go to council.

But we'll really need you all to talk through slash let us know what other things would be helpful with that, and that is probably going to be your first discussion point.

Is the, on the 23rd, the first discussion point being the survey results?

Where we have critical mass.

So I'm going to do comp plan review.

And so traffic is going to play a big factor.

And we can kind of, if we schedule it, we can kind of do what we were talking about doing anyway and kind of give you all some historic

Where the map is now to where you got on the map, I think that Hosea found that to be a pretty helpful exercise.

Didn't you already send us something on that?

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that's what she had sent.

The thing you sent, the old map and the new map.

Yeah, but this is actually taking the progression of their maps, the overlay of how they got there.

But that'd be good to see.

Madam, I'm going too far.

No, we can go over the mapping, all the early morning meetings with the mapping and then the spreadsheet exercise that formed the narrative that y'all are working off of.

That's kind of the inclination that just came to my head right now.

Take a look at those.

Get that set up for the 23rd.

OK.

And by then you and I may have had the conversation about community engagement so that might be able to be in the mix.

So this is the result of that that I must be seeing.

That's why we've got to hold Rory back a little bit.

So we're going to be getting a lot of email information coming up.

but the plan will be to have things that we can advance so that folks have the opportunity to review so just keep in mind we're planning a packet the same day we're planning a meeting like constantly we've actually been kind of in this pattern for for months here so you know just just keep that in mind.

So after...

So I see the 17th from 9 a.m. to 2 p.m. We have everyone, but... And Rory and I are like, okay, if we have to.

I'm good.

So it'd be Hosea who can't attend that day and you have marked you can't attend that day on a Saturday?

Because I had to check my schedule.

Is that the all-day thing you can't meet, Hosea?

Yeah, I'm not here.

If we get to a point where we may have to do that, if we get to the end of like the month and we're like there's no way we're getting through this we may have to, so keep that kind of on your pencil there.

So the drop dead day to get it to council by the deadline is what?

Well, the next couple of days are Thanksgiving, but we will have to get that back to council package by the 27th.

Go ahead, sorry.

I'm not really sure.

So they could kick it back to us again.