Board of Architectural Review Meeting   5/17/2022

Good evening and welcome to the May 2022 Board of Architectural Review meeting.

This is a hybrid meeting and we have some folks joining us in person.

All of the AAR members are here in person but then we should be streaming online and folks may be joining online as well.

My name is Robert Watkins.

I'm city staff and I'll be moderating tonight's meeting.

I'm joined by the chair of the BAR, Brett Gastinger, who will be chairing the meeting.

For anybody who's watching online right now and wishes to provide comment for any of the applications we have or wishes to provide comment on any other items, you'll just need to register for the meeting on the city's calendar and you'll need to join through Zoom in order to do so.

But just let me know if you have any difficulties.

I'm checking my email throughout the meeting.

But I'll pass things over to Brett Gastinger, our chair.

Thank you, everybody, and welcome to this regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review, except this meeting is anything but regular since it's the first time any of us have met in this room, in this format, all in person.

So that's just a bit of an introduction to please have a little patience with us learning these weird things about meeting in person.

Sure.

So there are a couple of ways that you can register to attend in person.

We have slots for 20 members of the public to join us for future in-person meeting or hybrid meetings.

You can either email Jeff Werner or myself

Jeff's email is Werner JB at Charlottesville.gov where you can email me WatkinsRO at Charlottesville.gov.

I'm just asking to be inserted into the pool for in-person attendance and you can do that the week leading up to the BAR meeting.

The next BAR meeting I believe is June the 21st.

or you can go to the Charlottesville's BAR webpage and there's a link for registering for in-person attendance there.

There's a little form that you fill out and it'll get sent to Jeff and me.

Excellent, thank you.

So for tonight's meeting, staff will introduce each item, which will then be followed by the applicant's presentation, which should not exceed 10 minutes.

I will then ask for questions from the public.

And since this is a hybrid meeting, I'll look over to Robert to see if there are any questions from online.

And then we'll follow by questions from the BAR.

After questions, we'll go to comments from both the public and the BAR.

For each application, members of the public are each allowed three minutes to ask questions and three minutes to offer comments.

Speakers should identify themselves and provide their address.

Comments should be limited to the BAR's purview, and that is regarding only the exterior aspects of a project.

Following the BAR's discussion and prior to taking action, the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond.

So the first item on our agenda are matters from the public that are not on the agenda.

Mr. Chair, it looks like we don't have any attendees who are online right now.

OK, excellent.

Next item on the agenda is the consent agenda.

And tonight, it's very simple.

We just have the meeting minutes from August 17, 2021.

Second.

Let's see.

Does the chair usually call the vote, or should I call the vote?

I don't remember who it's in person.

I'm so used to you doing it.

I'm happy to.

All in favor, say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Abstentions?

No.

OK.

That brings us to our first item on the agenda, a deferred item.

And that is 310 East Main.

And then when Robert steps up, he gets to raise the microphone higher.

So this, and the reason I would just introduce this,

So first off, this building was built in 1916.

It's a couple blocks down the street.

In 1956, the north facade, the mall side, was reconstructed.

And then again in 1982, it was reconstructed with the modern contemporary design that's there today.

We believe the south facade was probably done at the same time.

This is within the downtown ADC district.

and it is listed a contributing structure and it just gives me an opportunity to explain, because I was explaining to some folks in NDS today what that means.

Within one of our locally designated districts, contributing structure means, at least as far as the BAR is concerned, only means that a demolition review comes to the BAR.

So when you look on that map in the guidelines, that's our official map.

If something is shaded, it is a contributing structure.

If it's not shaded, it is not.

And so if someone wanted to demolish a structure that isn't shaded, then they do not need to come to the BAR.

If it's shaded, yes.

So there's a little bit of distinction between how we approach it relative to the BAR and how a contributing structure is treated relative to the national register and the state register.

I thought that would be helpful to share.

This is a project that you all looked at, some of you looked at in October and there were some just questions about detail.

I think overall the design, the response was positive.

We just had a, right, right.

So yeah, I came in and just shared some ideas of where he's, where they're taking this panel that's on the north elevation.

So, but I think, yeah, even that night we were missing quite a few of you.

So this is, we had the discussion, but it's good to have all of you here tonight.

I think we could get a good, a positive discussion out of it.

There are samples back here.

I don't know if we can show those or how to, but I'm less concerned about whether we're standing behind a podium and more concerned if we need to look at something we'll go get it or if we want to get up and go look at it.

Let's give the applicant the opportunity to show us what needs to be done.

Robert is here.

I don't know if I have not much more I can offer.

I'd really like to just dive right in.

I'm Robert Nichols with Formwork Design Office.

I feel like I've said so many things about this I'm going to try to err on the side of brevity tonight.

I think that we made a significant transition in just our whole kind of strategy and attitude towards this decorative piece and that was shown to you in February where we went from just a complete abstraction to

Lehrung, some cultural, some topographic, and other data on it.

So I won't say anything more about the genesis of that.

Most of my comments I'll make that kind of go along with the fact that tonight we have physical samples in front of you, material samples.

With respect to color, previously I had been describing the metallic, the coated metallic materials on them all as black.

The color that we've settled on is, and in our minds, and I probably said the phrase warm black, we've been looking for warmth in the color in the black.

And we have a minuscule chip tonight.

It's called a bronze or something of that sort.

And it's quite dark.

It behaves, it's really nice in the shade, which is what we'll have on that side of the street.

Shade and tree cover notwithstanding, there's a lot of light bouncing around there and quite many circumstances reveals the contrast that we're looking for with respect to the backing material, which is a very light anodized aluminum but in a bronze shade.

and that material, the color for this, which is the dark bronze, it has a little bit of a metallic flake, which as we said earlier, gives it a little depth and it helps it tolerate pollen and things like that a little bit without looking immediately kind of lessened.

And then we also have brick samples for you tonight in mortar and I think the three of them together do a good job, the three of them,

the dark color here, the light bronze backing and the brick to our eye are well tuned with the little bit of warmth that we're looking through to come through otherwise what's a fairly neutral pilot.

Also in terms of material, Breck had made some comments I think the first time we showed this about

these projecting components of this and how that was going to be handled down close to grade both in terms of really encroaching into the right of way and also either accidents or vandalism.

And his comments really helped us get more complexity and kind of think layering to the system where below eight feet or so, or really higher than that, nine feet,

We don't have any of these projections.

If you recall, when these projections do occur up higher, they correlate with topographic information.

So as we get up in the Blue Ridge and then go over the mountain, they adjust accordingly.

When we're really down in – I'll back up a bit.

This is a very crude, gross map where the three-notched road connects Richmond to Stanton.

When we're towards the bottom, the lower nine feet of the panel that more or less corresponds with the tidewater conditions, we have no three-dimensional characteristics, and instead we have more of a graphic indication of just kind of low non-varying topography, and that's the circular penetrations.

Nonetheless, at the lower levels, I think we really need to be aware of durability down there, so we'll probably, at those elevations,

have a material that's about twice as thick as this.

For the most part, it'll look, as you see here, you will probably be able to register a little bit of that depth in the penetrations.

We may, we'll probably elect for a little bit more thickness as we get higher, but again, all those, the panels that are going up there, each panel is about three foot square.

would be out of reach and have to tolerate the occasional falling branch but wouldn't be subject to vandalism or accidents or something.

I think I'm going to leave it at that.

And we're here to answer questions.

Oh, well, the views here and I think in the next few pages

Maybe let you see with a little more clarity what specifically would be happening with these panels in ways.

Okay, thank you.

We do, Breck.

We have two members of the public and if either member wishes to provide comment, please raise your hand and I'll unmute you.

Robert, you mentioned, as we were speaking before the meeting, there were some of these examples that you all didn't like, and you wanted to make sure weren't going to be in the final design.

Yeah.

So what's happening is they're kind of overlaying conditions.

And in most cases, they behave nicely.

Some cases like this, we have

When we have a topographic change we want to make, we're both adjusting the angle of this flap, but also to reveal more of the backing material, we're shorting the length of the wing, and then we get collisions like this, where the circle kind of intersected, and we're not famous for that, nor of this condition, where it's kind of awkwardly close.

So we're going to build into our algorithm that when these

Good.

No.

I expect, and what's modeled digitally gets up to about 60 degrees.

It's definitely a goal to not let them be confused for 90.

We want them to be directional.

Right.

Just, we heard you right.

Yeah, and that, I think, comes across fairly well in the illustrations.

It does.

There's two kinds of penetrations that are being indicated there.

There's the circle, like so, that integrates a certain kind of load type of topography.

But then there's another shape that's slightly more dense, and that is indicating population.

Well, they're different shapes as well, which allows for greater density.

So you can see there's a difference in the grid.

We're 553 in the lower left there.

That's Richmond.

And it's also kind of a racetrack shape.

And that actually shows

It wasn't helping in the sense that we didn't like the cutout when we saw the cutout in one of the models.

There's going to be a sign that explains to people what this is.

I think we've been thinking about that and I didn't want to bring it up because I didn't have it figured out.

And here we are.

As I think about how to talk about this without going down every little rabbit hole.

I was trying to think what are our goals not here but just with the design of really anything downtown but particularly something this which is decorative and like it's kind of free a blank slate if you will that to me things like this their success comes when they don't become mute quickly so that there's some complexity and perhaps some ambiguity that lets it you get more familiar over time

That said, why leave something unaddressed when it's there?

And by that, I mean just the basic.

There's probably three phrases that could mention this.

There is a technique where we can very easily engrave into the, we have a few panels, like so, where

There's no penetration, but the various rules that determine where we get penetration, where we don't is left a few flat panels.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that you have to, or I'm just curious.

Well, A, I hope not.

But B, I hope that that wouldn't matter.

That's the other thing, that any appreciation of it or perhaps dislike of it isn't dependent on someone else's head being as much as mine or as yours is on the genesis of the

You know, we live in a culture where common language is for decorative schemes.

That's kind of been gone for quite a long time.

And yet, it's still a puzzle.

It'd be nice to have some glue, some history, or some kind of cultural resonance there.

So I ask myself the same question.

I do agree that interpretation is incredibly important in this space, just to kind of contextualize what this means, especially because you have projections here that some people may consider dangerous or look dangerous.

Have you done any studies on how they will affect birds at all?

I haven't.

And forgive me if you've already answered this.

What does maintenance look like on this?

The finish on this will go on in the same technique, same method as any coating on a storefront or a commercial glazing system.

Robert, could you describe the weathering that you would expect on the backing, the backing bronze material?

There will be a gap but not much of one.

The gap as it grows introduces another shadow which starts to break things up.

or Blur them.

But I think we do want some air movement back there.

You know, when I originally thought about this and brought it to you, we were calling it bronze.

We liked the idea of having a real material back there.

We really, to maintain the kind of contrast that we want, we just can't go with an architectural bronze back there.

So we're using this anodized aluminum, which is pretty stable.

And it's still because it is.

It looks metallic because you will have seen the metallic nature of it.

But it should be quite stable.

Well, no, I wouldn't put it that way.

Because this way, it looks all black.

Right.

But it's not legible just at any angle.

It's definitely a different experience coming from that side.

Do you think there's going to be enough of a contrast?

So what we saw on the table back there is that that black is actually going to be more of like a satin charcoal color and then

The wood is the bronze you're talking about, or the anodized.

And then just looking at those renderings, the bronze portion looks to sort of glimmer.

And there's almost a sheen to the renderings.

And that illustrates a nice contrast between the two colors.

And so I'm just curious, number one,

I do think there's enough contrast.

I mean, it's a real question.

We pushed.

This product is about as light as you can get within this range.

We really didn't want a clear anodized, for example, back there.

It's certainly not as brilliant.

Our elevation shows it shocking.

The orthographic elevation shows a super bright color.

I think I have two

Two criteria that helped us get comfortable with this.

First, we spent some time, you know, a fair amount of time down there with it.

Second, I'm fine with some subtlety, but that's kind of subjective, but I think more so

is both the repetition of the penetrations, the dots, but also the length of the pathway.

It has that kind of Great Wall of China effect where the width of it is nothing substantial, but somehow the length of it, they say, I don't know if it's true, you can see it from space, but whether that's true or not, I know it is true that things that are long, your eye is happy to fill in the gaps where they are.

and I think those two conditions favor whatever pairing there is there.

When I first saw this project, I thought that you were actually leaving a glass facade behind it.

Actually, it became a kind of screen for the elevator.

It exists as glass right now.

And probably it's pretty far along in the process to make a decision like that at this point.

But I can imagine that at night, for example, with a lit elevator shaft behind it, it would be quite spectacular.

That's my big concern, too, is that it's never going to look as

right as it does in the renderings.

It's going to have shadows and something being behind this as well.

That's my biggest skepticism.

As far as interpretation, I don't mind that we have to figure it out for ourselves.

I think there are a lot of things about them all that we don't know about, but we still can enjoy and appreciate.

And we learn about it by talking to people for that part.

Yeah, I just wanted to let you know that we did study that option, the layers of maintenance and getting to that lighting, the types of glass we would have to use.

ruled that out for this project.

And I wanted to say something about the difference in the colors and the contrast, because I happen to really like the slightly less contrasting than the 3D model shows.

I think that a little bit subtler, as we're seeing in person, is nicer.

It's just hard.

I had a question about the mortar.

One thing we should

A long time ago, maybe the second time we were here, we had some changes in the orientation of the brick at the base of the building.

And we're not showing it now, and I just wanted to make clear that we had given the limited size of our panels, we just decided to let everything run as a running bottom.

And so there are no soldiers, and there's no change in material as we get to a pedestal.

What size brick is it?

And Robert, you said you have the brick, the actual color, one brick.

The rendering shows some variation in the brick color.

There's very little, there's not an intended range in the selected brick.

Okay.

There's a little bit of just texture in it which creates a little bit of blue.

Any other questions?

I just want to offer just a little to kind of help frame the discussion.

Obviously, this is a, I continue to view it as a sculptural element being used as a part of the facade.

But our guidelines don't give us a lot to work with in that regard.

But

So there's, you know, to kind of, but to work through some of the, you know, primarily the pertinent review, you know, of material, color, scale, is it compatible with the site, compatible with them all?

And I, to, so that's one thing you're weighing is this, does this fit?

And I think, you know, certainly our guidelines introduce the idea of flexibility in new design.

We went, we want new and creative designs.

We're not disturbing a historic structure in the sense of this isn't removing an element and we're not trying to restore or rehabilitate.

This is new and viewing it as such.

The guidelines are also, things like first street level design provide visual interest

to the passing pedestrian.

I would say love or hate the design.

It certainly checks that box.

So there are, I think that we've got the brick and the glazing, some of the more typical pieces that we can look at are easy enough.

But I just want to make sure we're staying and using our guidelines and not

getting into liking or disliking a sculpture.

That was the other thought that I wanted to offer.

As a piece of sculpture, I usually think someone has a title.

and maybe just what this was named would be helpful.

And then the only piece I had, I guess you asked about birds is will birds nest in this?

Oh, and the last piece I noticed some discussion about the glass earlier.

I have included the end of the staff report is the report from that discussion a couple of years ago about the flexibility with the VLT.

So that's if you needed anything to reference on that.

But they said I just wanted to kind of

Again, to balance this with the design guidelines and this discussion.

There's no yes, no listed here, but those are some of the pieces that I think might be helpful moving forward.

So if you wish to provide any comment, please raise your hand.

and the participant tab.

Okay, comment from the board.

While everybody's gathering their thoughts, I'd just add that it's been interesting looking at the sample panel as we've been just talking and as we saw it over there earlier.

And I think that actually the way the metal is deployed will be really dynamic in its reflection of a wider range of colors.

I've been seeing greens and blues and purples.

and it's not even outside yet so I think that in actuality it's going to be quite, you might think of it as dark or black but actually I think it's going to be quite vibrant in the way that it reflects its landscape.

I guess I'll just maybe consider it a curtain wall and it's not a sculpture if we're supposed to talk about buildings.

But it's very sculptural.

So, with that in mind, I think we had discussed whether some inscription or something, personally I like Mr. Strange's assessment of kind of let it be what it is and people can self-interpret, but if you wanted to have some sort of title or plaque, maybe tuck it in the recess of the entryway, so it sort of has to be discovered.

I also, I assume like three notch road is this road, like is it Main Street?

So I'm kind of curious, is there a way to almost like pinpoint or highlight like you're standing right here?

But I think it's really pretty neat.

I also, for some reason, think it looks like a lightning bolt strike, which is exciting.

Personal opinion, but I think it's, you know, this is a facade that had a,

I think I agree with Breck in that I think the materiality is going to work really nicely.

Of course, it's hard to see in a dark space, so certainly bringing it outside and seeing it in a—this mock-up's a little misleading, just that the two materials are off of what they're actually going to be.

I like the idea of subtlety.

I think it's such a neat idea.

I just want to make sure that there isn't an underwhelming effect with that subtlety, that you strike a right balance.

between sort of the, you know, less contrast but also something that is imaginative and really strikes people's imaginations as they walk by.

And looking at the bronze at certain points, you know, where the light reflects really does that.

I would be curious, it sounds like you looked at glass samples, but there's this sort of glass that has the foil back.

I'd be interested in exploring, before I was doing it, a little more depth into the back.

Again, not seeing the actual materials together.

I'm curious as to how the outside shell interacts with the back.

Right now, it's a pretty flat connection.

And I totally get what you're saying about if you were to separate those two, then you create a shadow line that creates a totally different effect.

I'll just add that I think it's interesting to go from this kind of placelessness of futurism to something that's so much about the place.

I'll speak in support of it.

I applaud the architect and the applicant for sticking with it, doing something interesting and persevering against our bit of a pushback, wanting to get more information and not taking the easy way out.

In our discussion, yeah, those pesky little things.

But I do think this is compatible with them and certainly meets the guidelines that I'm looking at that govern new construction and certainly govern new construction on our downtown mall.

I do find that the rhythm and patterns of the exterior and certainly solids to voids is found elsewhere on the mall.

That's an easy one.

The materials certainly meet the guidelines.

They're noble.

They're not the things that are discouraged by our guidelines.

There is a verticality to both of the facades, both South Street and

The Mall, which is also called out in our guidelines.

I do think it's a facade.

It's beautiful.

It's a piece of art.

It'll be a wonderment, I think.

And thank you for presenting to us.

I think to sort of tag on to what Clayton said,

rocket, space rocket elevator that was imagined in the 70s looking to the future.

This looks at a past.

This looks at a road that not all of us even recognize is the mall.

It was 250, the road from Richmond through the Blue Ridge Mountains.

And so that's a road that is a past road.

It's no longer even called Three Notched Road.

So I think that's interesting.

And I think it'll just be beautiful to look at and to walk around.

And I agree as well.

I've been in support of the project.

I think it's been an elegant way of dealing with this challenge of giving this new facade, and I really do appreciate that vertical composition on both streets.

I think it's going to be a good contribution fully in favor.

Robert took the, has taken the reins for this BAR meeting and I'm very grateful to him for doing that.

Make sure I get the right one.

Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including city design guidelines, I moved to find that the proposed facade alterations at 310 East Main Street satisfy the BAR's criteria and are compatible with this project and other properties in the downtown ADC district and that the BAR approves the application as submitted.

Just a question for Mr. Warner about the motion.

It said the facade alterations at 310 East Main Street.

You know, I look back at some of the old motions, and it used to be like, I move to approve this.

I know.

But Carl had asked me, he said it felt like it helped to say the address of what we're, so I just simply, because that's the formal address, that's why I use it.

Is it 310?

Yes.

Well on the February, oh.

It was shown as 310 in October of 21 and then it was changed to 309.

That sounds great.

I forgot how we did used to call the phone.

Now it's been so long.

Do I just say all in favor?

Or do we do a voice vote?

No, we never did a voice vote.

It's good to record.

I think we do a roll call though.

Roll call?

Okay.

Clayton.

Aye.

Mr. Strange.

Mr. Bailey.

Aye.

Mr. Zehmer.

Aye.

Ms.

Lewis.

I used the brackets to say, I kind of get close to it, I think.

Thank you, Robert and Cecilia.

And all those will remain in place until we get moved to somewhere else and some other form of meeting.

They end up in my closet.

Rick will tell you in my garden across the street from where he and I live, I have a path through one of the gardens of the brick samples that

While we're kind of in between here, I think it's interesting that I get a lot of questions from people about things that, for example, Rio Road is Route 10, and I get to tell them, no, this didn't happen.

There's so many myths in this town.

and I know you all know I've been trying to start the myth the new street lights on Belmont Bridge are an homage to the seventh society and we'll see if that goes.

So there is something I will say in my position these myths and legends of Charlottesville do take on a life of their own.

and then they usually come back to me, you know, what do you know about this?

So it will be interesting, you know, in 20, 30 years when Robert is, you know, in charge of the BAR.

He'll be able to say, oh yeah, I know what that is.

So it's kind of neat to be contributing to that.

But it is also, you know,

The guidelines don't really, this is something, again, keep in mind as we discuss what do we have to change or adjust or modify.

There's nothing really clear in there about that.

Jeff Dreyfus is online right now.

I can hear you all.

Yes, we can hear you.

Your disembodied voice.

Yes.

So I can get my audience start video.

There we go.

Okay, great.

Let me introduce it.

And then, um, it's, uh, I love that.

It's like the giant talking head.

That's the one thing I did not want to be at a meeting like this.

Uh, but our great leader, um, this is, um,

This is a project for 123 Bullingwood Road.

It's over in the, how do I call it, the Thompson Road neighborhood.

What's that?

Lewis Mountain neighborhood.

This is an IPP, so an Individually Protected Property.

It's a unique place.

This was like Ellie Wood on the corner.

That street was reportedly named for the woman or the daughter or the people that operated a writing studio here at this place.

It's got a really neat story to it.

But it is the built 1884.

Same year as mine, but it looks a little fancier.

It's the Disney Keith House, a vernacular farmhouse.

Arthur Keith's wife, Ellie Wood Keith, operated a writing academy here.

Said it was barn and outbuildings and stables and some really interesting stuff that's visible in the old aerial photos and the old Sanborn maps.

There's an existing garage south of the house which was constructed in 1988 and what's interesting about this house is it does sort of show that progression of a family of, you know, we need more space and it's almost sort of being slid out the back here over time.

What we have before us tonight, Jeff had spoken to us last

Well, I think several years ago, and it was set aside and then last November, came in to discuss this is a window sliding door on the back of the house and he had floated sort of the idea that was a favorable response to it and

and so here tonight to kind of discuss that a little further and I will say there's some information about landscaping in here that will actually be coming to you maybe next month but it's included just to sort of give some context to what they're trying to achieve with having this opening looking out onto this

So again, so it's a relatively compact thing that we're looking at tonight, even though there's other additional information about the site.

So we had staff looking at it, we had recommended approval of it conceptually, but do you have any questions for me?

Okay, great.

Thank you.

No more talking ahead.

I really wasn't aware of the new in-person option, so next time I'll be there.

I thank you all for hearing us through on this again.

As Jeff said, we were before the BAR in November with a concept sketch of this same small project.

And the response was favorable.

And based on that, we've gone ahead and detailed the design to give you more

More nuance to what we're talking about and to ideally receive approval for this component of a larger plan that our clients have for the property.

So what you see here is a more recent new landscape plan for the property that, as Jeff said, landscape architect Anna Beschistin will probably be before you all next month with a version of this plan.

We include it here so you understand the context, the future context ideally, of the sliding glass door that we're talking about here.

Relative to the project itself, you can see that Bowlingwood Road is on the right.

To the left of us is another parcel and beyond that is Alderman Road.

So the sliding door is on the southwest, basically the west elevation, the southwest corner of the building.

and is not seen from any public roads.

It does currently open onto a brick terrace and the future terrace will likely be bluestone.

We're not asking for any approvals or really

We would certainly entertain any commentary that you all have about this landscape concept plan tonight, but I'm not really prepared to talk about it.

I would rather that Ana do that when she comes before you all.

But the real idea here is that there will be a small plunge pool and a large entertaining area just outside of this part of the house.

Later in the presentation, you can see this wing of the

The house is really the kitchen and family dining area.

So I think we can probably move on from there.

You've seen these images before.

This is the elevation that we're talking about.

It is interesting to see.

We'll see this in some of the photos in the next couple of pages.

The evolution of the house, the telescoping additions here on the south end of the house.

There in the top left, you can even see an addition, a lean-to addition to the original farmhouse, which the original farmhouse will

be more exposed in some of the earlier photos that we'll see.

But here outlined in red, the location of the sliding door.

There on the right, we are really talking about taking over those two windows and the door and maintaining the existing head height, six foot eight head height on the interior of the building as is that current door.

The only other thing, sorry, Robert, keep jumping back and forth.

We will need to relocate on the right of the window, the far right window, there on the right image.

That small enclosure is the electric meter, and so we are going to need to relocate that as part of this project.

We don't have that, that's not been figured out yet, but that will need to be moved.

Okay, thank you.

Some of the older photos of the house, top right is really sort of the image where we were talking about.

There on the original farmhouse, the lean-to is not yet in place in that photograph.

So some of the first telescoping addition

going out toward the right gets consumed by the lean-to that's later added.

So we really, we have a series of not original structures here.

We can keep going.

And here are simply the elevations, existing and proposed.

The proposed sliding glass door, we are working to

minimize the amount of structure on the element.

The idea here is to be distinctly different from the historic fabric of the house.

In some of our earlier studies for the house 10 years ago, we were looking at enlarging some of the openings on the original farmhouse there on the left where the main living room is.

And the BAR was very opposed to modifying that facade.

So our approach here on this, the

to take a distinctly different approach, not pretend to be historic in any way, mimicking history or trying to make it fit in.

And so we're going distinctly modern with a three panel sliding glass door that the two panels on the left will stack with the panel on the right.

You can see the alignments that we're going after with the left edge of the new unit aligning with the left edge of the window above it, similar to the window currently in its place, as well as the window on the right.

Head height will, as I said, mimic the existing door.

I think if we move on.

So materials.

The house is currently gray, white, black shutters.

The intent here is a metal surround that frames the opening, almost a large cutout in the wall, framed by a powder coated black steel surround.

The sliding door system itself likely be white.

Black was a little bit ominous, didn't quite look right.

Like the way that the white at least does relate color-wise to other elements of this existing house.

And then the third element in the whole composition, the stoop.

that will be bluestone to match the bluestone terrace that we're showing here assuming that we'll have a bluestone terrace if approved by the BAR.

The stoop itself stretches the width of the three panels because it compositionally I think that that's most

settling and gratifying.

The step down to the terrace is just at the two doors for a little bit of asymmetry, still a little bit more modern than if the step were to go the full width of the stoop.

And because only those two panels on the left are operable functionally, there's a reason for that step.

I think that might be, well, the next page is

the head-on elevation.

We will be repairing any and all of the siding to match the existing.

The intervention will require underpinning some footings in the basement, but when we come back, we expect that it will look simply like a surgical cut all the way around and the siding will be repaired and no

No alien patterning going on around the opening.

And if we go further, a section through the sliding glass door with elements called out.

And then you can also see we include here a plan on the far right so you can see just exactly how the interior lays out.

This will actually straddle the kitchen and the family room.

I'm sorry, the family dining area.

The dining table is usually there right up next to the staircase that leads to the second floor.

And I think

Let's see, beyond that, we include some of the precedent images that we showed the VAR in November.

Again, the idea in all of these that this is a very modern intervention in a historic structure, not trying to pretend to be anything other than that.

Jeff, I've got a question on the, I would say, Photoshop model, forgive my, I'm sure that, elevation concept.

where you show pretty close up what this three panel window will look like.

I can't figure out whether it's recessed or whether it's proud.

Okay, so I think the shadows are probably confusing on that.

If we go to the section, if we go to the building section, here we go.

You can see the exterior wall comes down.

The sliding door unit itself is just proud of the existing wall, Cheri.

Part of the reason for that is structural.

We are going to need to pour a new foundation and footing underneath there.

We've studied the existing basement foundations and to put it in plane with the existing wall

would potentially compromise the foundation.

We've had a structural engineer look at it.

So in this instance, the window is just proud of the plane of the existing wall.

And then beyond that, the metal surround

is, let me go to my own enlarged version of this.

I just want to get the dimension right in terms of, sorry, here we go.

The surround itself is eight inches proud of the wall and the window unit is about four to four and a half inches deep.

So the metal surround is another three and a half to four inches proud of the wall.

Yes.

Thank you.

OK.

Well, good to know.

And I know some of your examples showed that dynamic on the samples that you had shown previously and that you included tonight.

We have two members of the public who are joined on right now.

If you wish to provide any comment, please raise your hand.

I just have a question about screen systems.

Is that going to be integrated somehow?

And that obviously changes that sort of nice clear effect that we're looking at in the renderings.

There is a screen system that is integral to the frame, and it disappears when it's not in use.

So it actually folds into the frame when the doors are

closed, and when the doors are open, you can pull the screen out of the frame, and it actually attaches to the operable window edge.

It's a German system, and it's really beautifully engineered.

All right, is there any comment from the public

If you wish to provide comment, please raise your hand.

Can I go back to a question for the applicant?

Sure.

Jeff, how old are the windows that we're demolishing in order to accomplish this?

I'm not sure any of us are clear when these additions came.

Robert and Jeff, I know you did some research initially, but I don't know that any of us were, I had done some as well.

I mean, it just, it seemed like

And I would say this is the one historic photo that we have.

I imagine it was taken in the 70s that shows the elevation in question.

And I think it's possible that these two windows on the first level are the two windows in question and a door has been inserted since then.

but these might be different.

I have Jeff Elias is raising his hand, and I believe he's the property owner.

So I'm going to go ahead and allow this Jeff to talk.

Sorry, I've lost my voice, but I just wanted to say that the witness

There's some original windows on the main portion of the home that are single pane.

But the windows that we're talking about are double pane windows.

And they're different in the photo that they looked at in the top right corner.

They have three panels across.

They're more modern.

It looks like when they moved window A, they also moved window B. They noticed in the photograph looked like they were lined up and as a less of a distance, I think, between B and D, I think, would be my guess.

Yeah, because the lower window is still even closer to that line, that first edition, line number four.

For me, and I felt this way when it was presented the first time, that I was felt

I felt comfortable that these windows would be removed.

It did not seem to be that they were either definitively original or, and they do sound of a double pane, you know, that they sound of a contemporary later edition, nor really critical to the building's overall design or detailing and also not visible from the street.

I agree.

I'm in support of it.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

I think it's a very elegant solution.

the way it you know clearly contrasts with the historic fabric but then there's some nice moves to relate to it with the windows and some of the materiality.

Maybe just if I could before you do that just entertain any questions.

Although we're not voting on it tonight, Mr. Dreyfus asked us if there was any guidance on the landscape plan since they will be presenting it shortly.

I personally find it in keeping and given some of the earlier discussions of the many ways that this landscape has been manipulated over the years, I don't find anything particularly objectionable or out of line with our guidelines.

Anybody, does anyone feel differently or have other comments?

No.

Okay.

All right, having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including city's ADC district design guidelines, I move to find that the proposed alterations at 123 Bowling Brook, excuse me, Bowlingwood Road satisfies the BAR's criteria and is compatible with this IPP and that the BAR approves the application as submitted.

Second.

Mr. Zehmer.

Aye.

Ms.

Aye vote aye.

Mr. Lehendre.

Aye.

Mr. Timmerman.

Aye.

OK.

Thank you, Jeff.

Thank you all very much.

Appreciate the help and the time.

Thank you.

Yes, I think even the color is so like my house.

It's been a lot of fun.

But Breck will tell you there's my house, sort of the middle of my house, and things got added.

And you'll stand there and go, what's holding that up?

You're like, I have no idea.

I have no idea what were they thinking.

So it was kind of fun trying to peel away the layers of this one.

All right, Jeff, thanks.

We'll see you.

Thank you all.

Oh, great head.

All right, so thank you very much.

Just a couple of questions I had for you all, and then we can, I was hoping, as I said in my email, most of us haven't, most of us know each other, but we haven't really met, and we certainly haven't, I know, Clayton, we haven't met you, and David, we haven't, we used to haze, do PA

James used to have, you know, new BAR members memorize a book of architecture.

What was that?

The Seven Steps?

I'm assuming we'll continue to do this, I don't know.

I was going to ask, so we had gotten to where everything was, the copies of the submittals we were going with the electronic version.

Is that working?

I have not requested any hard copies.

If for any reason you feel you want one, let me know.

No, I've told them not necessarily.

And I've even been getting one for myself that I've gotten with that big screen I'm getting where I can read, you know, it works for me.

I didn't think that would happen, but evolution is possible.

So, I just want to say, you know, if you want a set, we can get a set.

I had a quick question for you all.

There's a dead tree on North First Street at Charlottesville Towers.

You looked at it a couple weeks ago with some work they were doing on the front canopy.

This is one of those where I have a letter from the arborist.

It's not a safe situation.

They'd like to remove it.

I have said yes.

But I do have the ability to require something to be put in its place.

And I had asked Breck and we have Jody and your tree commission and others, you know, no trees.

So there's a row of

Pin Oak, one I guess would be on the south end is 36 inch.

This is about 25 feet away.

This one's a 30 inch that's dead.

Then about 20 feet away and split by about 15, 20 feet are two relatively young Pin Oak.

I don't remember enough from my forestry degree whether or not you could plant a young pin oak and have it survive.

So that was one question.

And then the other would be, it is underneath the utility line.

They had asked if they could go with one of the small ornamental, an eastern redbud request.

Okay, that I'm asking, just curious what you all, sort of relative to trees, this came up with the situation with the Wawa, why are we putting street trees, you know, beneath utility lines?

and this, where we can, our city desperately needs more canopy trees.

If you look at the street view, it's the... So have they already... Yeah, which is why our power went out, because they hadn't.

Yeah, I had a conversation with

Paul Josie about it.

He's like, yeah, I know they're cutting a hole through it, but we're still getting a tree at that pedestrian level.

And I was like, I don't know.

I've always had a problem with hacking trees around line.

But it's more the question of if to put

A tree, a large shade tree in a situation where there's already a tree in its place.

And I mean, if something's moved, they take up that space quickly.

And will something in an understory, is it even worth planting?

How did I describe to you?

We should go on a pill trip.

Yeah.

Yeah, go to Street View and spin around.

So yeah, you can see, you get a little bit of it there.

You can see when, in Street View, when you go down the end of the street and turn back, you can see where they've kind of

This is an old photo because there's yeah if you swing it back around yeah you can see there where they've trimmed

In 20 years everybody will thank you.

It's where

It's one of these things where our regulations say, no, you must, even if it doesn't make any sense.

And it's where I'm kind of pushing things a little bit, saying, all right, well, why am I putting a tree with a 60-, 70-foot crown 10 feet away from a building and underneath the 20-foot power line?

We do laugh sometimes like, where will we even be in 20 years?

All right, thank you.

That's very helpful.

I think that when there's a life safety issue and someone's asking me and an arborist is expressing, I'm not going to hesitate to remove something like that.

And so the third thing I had,

I know you all have received a lot of emails about a particular project.

And I just, I want to address, I passed it up the ladder the last two weeks ago, I don't know what to do.

But I do want to just, it still gives us an opportunity to kind of learn and share a little bit.

So it was a project we reviewed in April, it was in a conservation district, which is

Intentionally a lighter touch.

We're not getting into the example I used is a Even in an ADC district if someone does a flagstone patio We don't ask to see what's the pattern of and sizes of the flagstone.

So there's there's certain details We just don't get into the weeds on this in the

Drawing that was shown indicated that possibly there was a setback issue with a step.

Normally those things, we don't do zoning review.

You all are not a zoning body.

Nothing that you decide

grants a building permit, it doesn't waive life safety code, it doesn't waive city code, it doesn't change zoning.

You all are reviewing a conceptual design and as with most things there are details that we get worked out.

I had advised that when a building permit's issued, that's when they look at the zoning issues.

Well, just so happens, this one was one of those mistakes where a building permit had been issued in early March.

For whatever reason, it didn't get flagged for me to review it.

Because remember, I, and this, you all knew to the BA, I don't know.

There's another step in all of this when things come in as a building permit, I review them.

When a site plan comes in, I have to review and make sure it's consistent with what you all have looked at.

But unfortunately there was an error, so a building permit had been issued and it was a mistake and I expressed that.

I communicated with the zoning administrator

We sent, and I sort of talked to Rob when he was here, I sent him a very to the point letter and said you, you know, must still comply with zoning.

Let me know if that's a problem.

Let me know if something changes.

If in a project like this somebody shifts something a little bit this way or that way, particularly in a conservation district,

You know, I get to make a judgment.

Is that something I need to bring back to you?

If it is, I will.

In a conservation district, I also, if something's been reviewed by the BAR, I can take it back to the chairs and get, you know, what do you think on that?

But I can assure you, in an ADC district, I wouldn't be saying, yeah, move the building, you know, 20 feet that way.

Don't worry about it.

We communicated with the owners, communicated with the applicant, and they understand the situation and they understand that what they build must comply with the ordinance.

So I just wanted to be kind of clear about what we do and don't do, but yes, we should

When I have projects of a large scale or have questions about setbacks, I do ask zoning ahead of time, but we don't provide a zoning review and I think that the concern that's being expressed to you all has

Can I just respond to say I'm grateful for the way, Jeff, that you and city staff responded to the questions that were posed.

I'm uncomfortable with the way that you and other city staff were handled in this process.

B.A.R.

was even part of the communication chain.

It just seems like it's not a B.A.R.

issue.

It's just a small example of a lot of stuff that you guys handle all the time and don't get any thanks for it.

I've been telling people that if you knew how much of my job was spent telling people, I have nothing to do with that.

And then it kind of snowballs from that.

But I just want to be clear back to you all as far as the responsibilities go.

You are not responsible for zoning.

Your decision does not vest, you know,

Rob, can't go and start construction tomorrow based on what you all discussed today.

So there's still a process and an applicant, it's their risk that they are bringing into design and saying I'm getting approval for it.

But if it comes back again in the site plan or the building permit review, if it's not

If I'm seeing something really different, then I don't approve that.

I don't put my, you know, there's several reviews for building permits.

It doesn't get mine, so it doesn't get issued.

So there is a check there.

It's not flawless.

Our system is very flawed.

I think the way it's supposed to work is that the zoning clearance needs to happen before that triggers.

So yes, for a small residential addition, it's just not, there's a lot going.

But yes, the building permit was issued in error.

We've acknowledged that.

We've remedied it with the applicant and the owner.

If necessary, if the city feels that something egregious occurred, I guess we can hire a surveyor and indicate that something's been built in the right of way, but we're not at that point yet.

But I just thank you, Mr. Gassinger, yes, I don't know how to say it anymore, but I want to be clear with you all where we are.

If you have any questions, certainly call me.

And I think the only other question I had is,

And so I just said, you know, I would have to take it to VAR, I said, but I suggested that they not waste $125.

I said, from where I stand, I said, so it's not good historic preservation practice to do that.

However, I think this one might be associated with a

A sign, not a, so we have, if you have a historic ghost sign and you still operate as a business within that place, you can restore it, rework it, you know, you've kind of, but if you are

you know there's a big Sears and Roebuck sign painted a wall out there and Timberlake said hey we want to paint this I'd say well you're not Sears and Roebuck you know so you can't doesn't work that way but so that's that was all I just but it may come up you may be asked about it it's there's I will say there's a lot of energy downtown in

The new group that's sort of trying to say, you know, where are we?

How do we market downtown better?

What are some of the things, some of the artwork you've seen go up?

So there's an energy, but there are going to be questions that come back to us.

With that, that's all I had.

And I said, I hope everybody will walk down the street and meet somewhere.

Any questions for me?

This feels very awkward.

Yeah, all of the benefits of meeting back together, kind of mitigated by the masks and the microphones.

All right.

See you guys soon.

And I can't say officially, I don't know why Maryland and Virginia are in the same bracket.