Planning Commission Meeting   5/14/2019

I have been on vacation and I have nothing to report.

Absolutely.

That's all.

No commission reports from any subcommittees?

No, I was on vacation also.

Okay.

The week after Easter.

Mr. Stolzenberg?

So Parks and Rec, I think they took the month off last month to meet the Pontains Screechcape.

Did you make the charrette, Jody?

asking for comment based upon boards that were up, but there was no presentation.

So we'll get the results of that at the next meeting and Bill is leading the Master Plan Committee meeting tomorrow, UVA Master Plan, so we'll have a report on that after tomorrow.

Great, and we'll lead right on into the University report.

Probably weather permitting.

So is that an event where people should come watch?

So the university is making accommodation for people not to be right there, but to be able to do it at a safe distance.

Seems more safe to me as well.

Great.

And that is all I had.

It's to redo that intersection.

And at this point we only have one person signed up, Trey Stagman.

Thank you for your consideration.

Mr. Stolzenberg, did you have a comment on the minutes?

So if we could just note that.

OK, great.

Thank you.

Can I have a motion?

Second.

Okay, is that with the removal of the critical slope?

Yes.

Thank you.

The consent agenda as well.

If we could prove by voice acclamation, all in favor?

Aye.

So, we're going to take a 10-minute adjournment.

We're going to take that up at another meeting.

And so it may be just more than the simple

And could we get our Planning Commission's legal counsel to look at it and come prepared to make a, to talk about it?

To have a discussion?

Yes.

I guess Ms. Creasy will let us know when that work session will be, but I think June is open.

Fourth Tuesday.

Fourth Tuesday, okay.

And right now we don't have anything on that?

Correct.

Have we got any idea that we have council coming?

Where?

No, they're not here.

okay so we will adjourn until 6 p.m. and we will try to round up the counselors all right thank you

You know, I don't want to promise what we'll do.

Yeah, but something like this is going to be very scary to them at first.

I need to ask you, they've still written your general feedback.

They do.

They address everything except for the original.

Morris Creek runs near that right

Thanks for saving me from everything.

I walked the site and I couldn't go too deep into the site.

and would be, because they still have this now, six-week site on a scooter looking for a way to climb in, but it's just dense woods, wasn't going to happen.

It'll probably be until seven o'clock.

Okay.

All right, thanks for calling.

Missy, do you think that because our agenda lightened up, we're going to get out of here early?

I could probably, yeah, yeah.

And I'm not certain why they wouldn't want to do that, because they'd make a little more money, I think, if they... Yeah, and it would be the mix that we're looking for.

So they're saying if you hit 50 or more you'd have two accessories at the front.

Yeah, so their specific site is like John Street or the UVA, so it's this weird dead-end new thing.

Yeah, this whole, looks like 20 unit flight.

It's called Wellington Court.

and just Harvins.

Probably thirds, yeah.

Mr. Affley, are you ready?

I can keep going.

Thank you.

The applicant is here and can provide, there are no visuals, but you can provide a narrative presentation and I can answer questions.

Do you have questions?

How does that work?

or they could make their decision off the proffers that y'all reviewed.

Or they could do it by deferral and come back.

They could say they want to defer and to work on the application and then it would just start the process over as far as with y'all but if y'all made a recommendation and they decided to make changes after that recommendation those would be the steps.

I'm just surprised that there's so many unresolved issues still that staff has pointed out and has there been a rigorous

There are some concerns with the material itself, but how it's presented I think is better than some PUDs we have seen in the past.

Thank you.

Is there anything as part of that proffer that would imply that there would be any funding for the nonprofit to build them?

The proffer statement is a little bit weak on administrative how these actions would be taken.

Because if we don't have the timeline, then there is no way for us to enforce production of the affordable unit.

Thanks.

I think staff would look to make sure that affordable unit was then completed and if not it would become an enforcement issue at that point.

So because in the proffer the completion of the unit is only if they build it themselves and otherwise deeding it to a nonprofit counts, could they just set up a 501c3 and then deed it to that and then never do anything?

I think you could still question the motives behind the establishment of the 501c3 to make sure that there was an actual purpose there to build the unit.

And we get no affordable units.

So if they tried to sell the property at that point, that proffer would still be enforceable.

This rezoning goes with the land, not?

The proffers go with the land.

But the rezoning and the proffers go with the land, not the applicant before us.

Right, correct.

So if they were to sell,

The proffers still have to, and if somebody, if they sold and somebody wanted to do a different arrangement, they'd have to come before you and ask for a proffer.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Are we ready to hear from the applicant?

Yes.

Anyway, I welcome your questions either now or at a later time when you're discussing this and thank you.

I think we're going to do questions now because once we go into discussion, we're going to have you guys stay seated.

Can you dive into your specific plan to protect the wetlands and to protect Moore's Creek?

So I hope that answers your question.

At what point will you actually transfer the three acres to Parks and Rec?

I think the best time to do it would be when we record the plat because that's just an easy time to either deed it to them or dedicate to public use however the city attorney's office would like to do it.

How does Parks and Rec access this property to maintain it?

So this would be a gentle trail with no steps.

What level are you at?

We're proposing to use the city's definition, which I believe is 80%.

I'll defer it for now.

Just to follow up on that last bit, did you say you're gonna adhere to the city standard operating procedures for accessory dwelling unit or for affordable dwelling units?

I'll clarify that if we were to deed the lots to somebody like Habitat who can meet much lower affordability thresholds than we probably could, then we're likely to get lower than whatever the city's requirement is, but the code section is 34-12.

And can you explain your thinking in your term of your deed restriction?

So though it isn't the best we could do on each one of these individually, it's kind of the best package we can offer that really addresses all of them.

And they are intended to be affordable home ownership units in either case?

We don't have that certainty.

It seems like there'd be perhaps room for more perhaps apartments, but maybe you could explain your thinking behind that.

So you had mentioned the nutrient offset.

You mentioned that if the city requires that, you think that that's a deal breaker?

a fraction of the credits that we would need to meet the state requirements but we'll attempt to make as much as we can happen on site.

Bufflers might be as opposed to you designating them a forest easement.

So whether it's the city who owns it or some private property owner, I think it's important for us to state our intentions in a legally recorded document so that that's what happens.

Have you thought of or talked to any other nonprofits in partnering with them?

But we've enjoyed that relationship, so I say their name because we have a long history and they're a likely partner.

Can you help me understand the disconnect?

But it'll be nice to have open space there instead.

Thank you.

Mr. Milandro?

Where's the diversity of sizes and square footages and heights?

It's not the best variety that could ever be imagined in a PUD as far as unit mix, but it's something.

What has the design that's been presented done to connect the site together, the wetlands to the clustered houses, to make it a cohesive whole?

I'm just wondering what the connection is

Am I correct in that anyone who wanted to get to the wetlands would have to go out Flint Road and use the trail that's being proposed with the park system?

Thank you.

What is your definition of market rate?

I wish I knew the answer to that.

Because I see some townhouses just down the street for 1.2 million and I don't think that that's what anybody considers market rates.

For people who didn't want any of those extras in the 200s is what Longwood was and that's where the sales are, that's where the market wants us to be and we're going to try to get there as best we can given the cost of labor and materials and other caveats that we have to have as a business.

So what was your thought there?

You may be able to put more of those, but at what limit is the density appropriate?

Anything else limiting you from potentially having that option?

Accessory apartments?

Right.

If we get to that point, we've done well.

was going to make us get this and not something that we don't want.

I keep mentioning Burnett because I'm really proud of it but that's one where we went above and beyond on affordability there and that's something we're committed to as a company and it's something that is committed to and proffers here so we couldn't change that without city council permission.

What is your plan for something for it to be integrated instead of

So they have to be of high quality for the whole thing to work.

Any follow up before we have public hearing?

Do the trails connect to anything?

But right now, no, this is the beginnings of, well, or the second or third step in a new trail system.

You talked a little bit about opening that up a bit.

And if this comment had come earlier in the process, you'd be looking at that right now.

Absolutely.

I don't know exactly what theirs are, but they would record additional deed restrictions beyond whatever we require, and we'd probably work with them on the front end to make sure that ours didn't conflict with what they want to do.

In the instance of deeding them to habitat, I would think so.

So in communities that you haven't partnered with Habitat or organizations like Habitat, what is this?

Is your standard the 10 years?

We've always partnered with Habitat to date.

So then the five unit, 10 years, you're flexible there?

It depends on what other things we'd want to give.

Thank you.

But in the package as it's presented, I think it's pretty important to hold that for it to still work and still be bankable and underwritable and buildable.

So if you've done these projects with Habitat and the AMI that you have, it's less than 80.

I'm thrilled they can.

So the conversations that you've had with Habitat, have they happened outside of the soccer field?

Thank you.

So thank you.

Please keep these properties as low-density residential.

Next, Jess Langer

However, we consider the, we urge the Planning Commission and city staff to be cognizant of our concerns and consider how to mitigate the traffic impacts on these three intersections when considering the zoning amendment.

Sorry about that.

Thank you for your consideration.

Please state your name and so that we can get this for the record.

Anyone else?

Overall, we think there are simply too many remaining questions about these two applications to provide a fair assessment of their relative impacts and benefits or enable the Commission to make an adequately informed decision on any potential recommendations.

Thank you.

All right.

Thanks.

My name is Anja Redel Bicknell.

I live on Crystal Court, that's off Harris Road.

Thank you.

We'll close the public hearing

So those are some of my concerns.

Mr. Leandro, any discussion points, concerns?

So I just, I'm against this because of the many unresolved issues that the staff has already pointed out, but also because it's a poor example of how a PUD should be done.

Mr. Solliotz?

That's what I've got.

suggested, but I would concur that this is exactly what you want PUDs to do is put the density in one place and preserve the open space.

Mr. Stolzenberg?

Were you guys talking about Porter Ave or?

I was talking about down the street where we got this townhouses.

Other than that, I think I'm set.

So that we, I, could make an informed vote regarding the recommendation.

Entertain a deferral.

So if we can get a vote, hopefully favorable tonight, I commit to you and to council and I urge them to vote no if we don't live up to this, that we'll make those tweaks that we've heard to the proffers and then go to them for the next public hearing if that's okay.

Would you like to

They have to fix it no matter what, or just that they wouldn't work well?

Profford Plan, it would be okay, but you have that being the reviewing body for site plans conducted to PUDs, you are making that call on whether the site plan is substantially the same as the PUD development plan.

And is it possible to exempt accessory dwelling units and or affordable dwelling units for that matter from the 50 limit

They can recommend kicking it back to Planning Commission to have Planning Commission review the new proffers or they can hold just their meeting on the recommendation and the materials you presented.

I move to recommend that City Council should approve ZM18-003 including the critical slope waiver requested in P19-00013 on the basis that the streets proposed within the PUD development are laid out in a manner substantially in accord with the Comprehensive Plan and approval of the proposed PUD development is consistent with the Comprehensive Plan and will serve the public necessity, convenience, general welfare, and good zoning practice.

We have a motion.

Second.

Any further discussion?

The only point I'll make is that based on what I get, I love the vision, I love where you're going, but based on what I know today, I'm going to have to vote no, but I'm hoping that when it gets to council, a lot of the issues that we've raised will have been addressed and corrected so they can give you their support.

I think we will have made a big mistake.

It doesn't change any of the applicant's alternatives.

No.

Not promises for making any changes, not any of that.

That's right.

The application.

Ms. Creasy, would you call roll?

Mr. LeHondro.

No.

Mr. Heaton?

Yes.

Mr. Stolzenberg?

Aye.

And Ms. Green?

While I love this project, I need more assurities of what's going to be, and that's why I can't support it.

As you begin thinking about your appeal to council, it would be really good if you could solidify your thoughts around the affordable housing piece as well and who the partner might be if you're going to have a partner to do that.

Is that what I'm hearing?

We have no action on this item.

Okay.

Sure.

I think I'll be back to see it either way.

Do we need to take an action as to whether we vote on that?

Second.

Ms. Creasy, we call roll.

Mr. Alejandro?

No.

Mr. Solly Yates.

Aye.

Ms. Dowell.

Aye.

Mr. Heaton.

Aye.

Mr. Stolzenberg.

Aye.

And Ms. Green.

If you want to email us, we'll be happy to have some conversation.

So our next public hearing

There we go.

Hold on.

This is a site I know well.

And if so, what would that look like?

The proposal here is to use the existing building and then it becomes a question of, it's hard to see a way to do that and also bring the site into conformity with the setbacks.

Could that be possible here?

There is a sidewalk all the way down Angus Road and all the way around.

You have to go all the way around?

Since the site plan is not finalized?

Thank you.

Really quick, do you want to make a statement about the traffic engineer in our pre-meeting and talking about how that circulation, maybe I missed that?

I haven't, the traffic engineer expressed to me that it wasn't one of his concerns.

Right.

That's all I want to say.

All right.

Mr. Leandro, questions?

No, no.

Ms. Dowell?

Just for that.

You did great first time.

Whew.

You're good.

All right.

I'm with Riverbend Development.

Hang on one second.

Hey, guy.

We're designing it down here.

We got you a slide book.

Thank you.

So our biggest question in the pre-meeting was how is the vault going to be used?

That is a huge issue.

We had an idea that if you took what is the handicapped drop-off next to the lane and extended that to the sidewalk through the planning bed, that that gave you a sidewalk access from Angus Road to the building.

keeps the flow going.

That's correct.

Annoying to the consumer, but if you like the product enough, you will go for it.

I'm happy.

Not just the issue, but I was just curious.

That traffic that may flow in for an ATM happens over the course of a day, so it's not conflicting with other peak hour uses.

Is that a real thing?

The middle lane is a bypass lane, so just to get traffic flowing through, and then the third lane is that ATM.

Or the second lane.

We might have some special deliveries.

I just wondered if it came through a vacuum.

It might be a little messy.

So to be clear, because of the bypass lane, I can't get my frappuccino with my left hand and then withdraw.

I know, but it doesn't work necessarily for the public, but we'll talk about that later.

All right.

So let's finish this public hearing.

You want to make a motion?

Do I have a motion?

Well, I'll make one.

Okay, great.

and two, the final site plan shall include additional signage and pavement markings including both lane lines and text to designate the travel ways for drive-through and non-drive-through traffic and specify that all traffic is one way and additional condition that a sidewalk, that the handicapped access lane be extended so that it connects with the sidewalk on Angus Road.

Is there any further conversation?

Should we refer to this exhibit as part of that motion?

I'm not, if you want to refer to it for the sidewalk, but other than, is that?

I'm afraid that if we bring this exhibit in and it hasn't been to the public.

Ms. Creasy, we call roll.

Ms. Dowell?

Aye.

Mr. Heaton?

Aye.

Mr. Stolzenberg?

Aye.

Mr. Mitchell?

Aye.

and Ms. Green.

And you can mark on the walls and the stainless will be right up.

I love it.

We are now on to our entrance corridor, so I am going to gavel us out of the Planning Commission and into the entrance corridor and have our staff report.

I always thought you were supposed to spit in your chair when you gaveled in and out.

Was I?

Old document.

Gary, that's you.

And I have typed up my suggested motion, if that's of any assistance.

Thank you.

I certainly can answer any questions.

Any questions?

So the things that I printed out of the agenda package for today, they are no longer?

So there are two choices really that you all have.

or you can reference a document that you have not had the opportunity to see that denotes a number of those conditions already being met with the main condition remaining having to do with the large red element on the building.

Okay, thank you.

So to be more targeted, we're concerned about the red.

Navigational equipment.

Ashley, you're going to let them know so they can go home?

Thank you, Ms. Creasy.

I hear Kmart's making a comeback and their signs were red, so.

What we have before is how is it harmonious into the other part of the back parcel that's proposed to be developed as well?

But on this segment up here, I'm just trying not to make this building jump out at us, if that makes sense.

As I recall Kmart was always kind of in the hole.

So it's

And I see there's a future out parcel on the west end of the building too?

So perception is reality.

Do we know if it's going to block any of it?

It's probably, I don't know, I think and Ashley probably better at explaining some of the the way the out parcels work and how you know what's planned for development there but the way we look at it now is have to assume what we have on paper there's nothing there.

And the freestanding sign location is that also for this?

So you can look at what's on there, but that signage plan will be what prevails once it's reviewed and approved.

How does this change when the new intersection is put in at 29 and Hydraulic?

I wish the transportation guys were still here.

I don't think it touches it.

And members of the team have been part of the committee that were working with that.

Yeah, the hydraulic goes under.

Those are being resolved and discussed, so really focusing on the design of the building will let you know further as those things change.

Are we gonna have to come back and do this again because we've already gone this once.

So I said it could be a function of reducing the scale of it, inverting it.

The inverse has been done.

I think that, I mean, you think about going, I even today was on Google driving, the little man driving up and down 29 and looking east and west and trying to see what we had.

I mean, that's pretty vibrant.