Board of Zoning Appeals (BZA) Meeting   12/2/2025

So again, thank you very much for attending the December 2nd, 2025 meeting of the Albemarle County Board of Zoning Appeals.

I'd like to call the meeting to order and announce the time.

It's now 2 p.m. and as the acting chair of the Albemarle County Board of Zoning Appeals, I call the meeting for the December 2nd, 2025 to order.

I would like to establish a quorum and ask please that

Ms. Joseph.

Present.

Okay, I'd like to say that we've established a quorum.

We have staff, we have the county attorney,

Andy Herrick, we have our attorney Jim Bowling, zoning administrator Bart Svoboda, Francis MacCall, please screen back there I believe I see, okay, Marsha Alley are all present for the meeting and will the record please so note that.

I'd like to move into the third item on the agenda which is the public hearing

And before we get into this, I'd like to say that we have received a request to defer this matter until the next meeting, which will be January 6th of 2026.

Yes.

The attorney is here.

Okay, well, pardon me.

I'm Maynard Sipe.

I represent Mr. King.

I am here today.

I made a big effort to rearrange my schedule to be here, which was a little hard.

But given that the county attorney objected to the continuance, I felt I needed to do that to protect my client's interest.

Ready to proceed today.

Well, thank you very much for attending.

Okay, well thank you, thank you very much.

We are here today for public hearing on Project APZ-2025-00002, 1701 Old Forge Road.

Mr.

Chair, Members of the Board, my name is Andy Herrick.

I'm the County Attorney here on behalf of the Zoning Administrator and the Board of Supervisors.

As I had indicated in an email that I sent to

I believe the zoning admitted are to Miss Alley that was shared with the board.

We actually are suggesting that this be heard in three separate parts, the first of which is on the county's motion to dismiss.

Second part of which was the motion to continue, although I don't know whether that's still pending.

And the third is only if those two motions are overruled, would we actually hear the case today?

The county filed or is suggesting that this appeal ought to be dismissed on the grounds that

No grounds of defense or grounds for appeal were filed with the appeal.

And I would point to, and this is pointed out in the staff report as well, the applicable law, this is on page two of the staff report, which is packet page eight.

The fact that Virginia Code section 15.2-2311A, which governs appeals, provides in part, the appeal shall be taken within 30 days after the decision appealed from the filing,

with the zoning administrator and with the board a notice of appeal specifying the grounds thereof.

And as you've seen, the appeal that was filed, that was timely filed with the board did not specify any grounds.

So it's deficient in that regard.

The county code is similarly structured, County Code Section 18-34.3b, any appeal shall be in writing and shall state the grounds for the appeal.

And again, when this appeal was filed, there were no grounds of appeal filed.

And so we would say that the appeal is deficient and should be dismissed on those grounds.

If the board should overrule that motion, we of course would want to be heard on the merits of the case itself.

But at this point, just preliminarily, we would argue

Yes, could I interrupt for just a minute?

Ms. Alley, are we getting any sound on this mic?

Can the audience hear this?

Okay, fine.

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you.

And again, I understand that Mr. Sipe wishes to be heard on this and I would like to be heard in response to Mr. Sipe's argument as well.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

The appellant's attorney, if you'd like to come up.

All right.

At this moment, since we're bifurcating this motion to dismiss from the substance of the appeal, I'm going to speak just to the motion to dismiss the county attorney just made.

I'm going to be frank.

I'm rather taken aback by this motion.

I've handled many BZA cases, both as an attorney representing property owners and neighbors in front of a BZA, and as counsel to boards of zoning appeals for other localities in Virginia.

I've never heard of this being done.

I find it leads me to wonder if the county is very confident in this case.

I will say that

The appeal was filed by the property owner himself before I was hired.

It was filed in good faith.

He came to the county in person.

He did not feel comfortable submitting the application online as he was told must be done.

So he came into the county office and the staff person assisted him in entering the information and taking the fee for this appeal.

I think the staff person was very helpful to him.

Mr. King stated that he didn't mention he was

Not in agreement with the arguments and that he was not using his vehicles for any business use and didn't conduct business on the property.

That may not have been entered by the staff person when they entered the information for the appeal.

I just now was given a letter that he says he did send to the county, which did state some grounds.

Unfortunately, I have to copy with me today.

That was sent just by regular mail later or at some point in time.

I can't say as for sure whether it was received or who saw it at the county, but it was addressed to the county zoning department head.

I will say you need to think about the nature of the appeal.

An appeal is by right to the BZA.

Any property owner who disagrees with the zoning administrator's decision has a right to file this to protect their property rights.

I've asked you to look carefully at the state code language with Mr. Herrick cited in 15.2-2311.

It does say, by filing the appeal specifying the grounds thereof.

It does not use the word shall, as in shall specify the grounds thereof.

It should be viewed as directory and not mandatory.

And I'll draw an analogy to that.

There was a case not too long ago, which you all may be aware of, where boards of zoning appeals were expected to act on a decision within 90 days.

And the Supreme Court of Virginia said, well, the state law says that, but that's directory, not mandatory.

Once you have a case in your hands, you have flexibility and some time to do that, to act on it.

So not every statement like that is mandatory.

I do note that the code section at the county's ordinance inserted the word shall, which of course I would argue is an attempt to go beyond what the state code allows.

And it's probably not really fair to try to argue the county's creating a tighter rule since that in my mind would violate Dillon's, which I'm sure you're familiar with.

I'd also say everything's in place today to hear the appeal.

I made an extra effort to be here today so we could resolve the matter.

I have parties present.

The grounds were provided in a letter I sent that is in your packet now.

Hopefully you received that yesterday in advance of the meeting.

But I sent that to Ms. Green.

The public was notified.

I imagine there are some neighbors here today who may wish to speak.

And I think it would be patently unjust to dismiss it.

So Mr.

Chair, if I might be heard just for a moment or two in response, I will acknowledge that this is an unusual motion.

And the reason it's unusual is that we've never had a case before in which an appellant did not specify the grounds for appeal.

We wouldn't be filing this motion if the if the appellant had timely filed the grounds of defense.

the grounds for the appeal as is required not just by the county code but by the state code.

Again, there is a shall in that code section.

The appeal shall be taken within 30 days after the decision appealed from and one of the things you have to do when you file that is to specify the grounds thereof.

This has been found to be mandatory that numerous cases have been appealed for failing to file within the 30 days required.

Now, Mr. Sipe indicated that he had sent a letter to Lisa Green, who's the code compliance officer with the county.

Not only was that dated November 21st, so less than two weeks ago, it was sent to Ms. Green.

It was not filed, nothing at this point, no grounds of defense had been filed with the secretary of the BZA.

The county itself just received this letter within the last two weeks.

Really it does a disservice not only to the county in terms of preparing an argument, but also to the board in terms of being prepared to hear the case.

I know that the board is eager to hear how the county responds to each point, each grounds,

of defense that the appellant raises and if county staff doesn't get that county staff in its report can't address it it leaves at least council in a disadvantageous position to have to respond at to defenses that are just being raised at the last minute and again it puts the board in a worse position and that you don't have the opportunity to hear county staff's rebuttal to it

So for all those reasons, we think that this case should be dismissed, again, because the grounds of defense were not timely filed with this case.

Mr. Herrick?

Yes, ma'am.

Can I ask you if this is dismissed?

It would not, the Board of Zoning Appeals would no longer have standing for it.

Obviously there'd be a right of appeal to the, well there'd be a right of appeal under state law.

So then the dismissal means what?

Do we then look at something

Right, so the appeal would be finished as far as the Board of Zoning Appeals was concerned.

OK.

Thank you.

Yes, sir.

I appreciate the opportunity to speak one more time for a moment.

I think the outcome, if you dismiss the case now, to my mind, would be the same as if you

I also think that it would force us to appeal your decision to dismiss to the circuit court, not the substance of this matter.

And that's a big burden and expense on the client.

And finally, I think if Mr. Eric

felt he would like more time to prepare based on the letter I sent.

I'd be happy to defer it to January 6th if he wishes.

But I thought the letter was submitted to the county staff and the zoning department.

And as I remember correctly, there's a section in the zoning ordinance that says anything submitted to them will be considered submitted to you.

So that's all I had to say on that.

But I would hope he would reject this motion.

Mr. Rosenberg, did you have some questions?

Mr. Sipe, can you return?

I have just a couple of questions.

Okay, September 10th, I'm reading.

um and so let me see is that with within the 30-day limit yes of the decision okay and he paid the fee and he did everything that the staff person asked him to at the time right so uh okay so so that happened then um just one one other question about some of the things you were talking about uh the this the um

Comment of Mr. Herrick refers to Virginia Code section 15.2-2311A and it specifies the appeals to the Board of Zoning Appeals and

Does it or does it not say, and I'm reading from the report, quote, the appeal shall be taken within 30 days after the decision appealed from.

So the time limit was satisfied from what you tell me.

from the filing with the zoning administrator and with the board, a notice of appeal and then specifying the grounds thereof, period, close quote.

Yeah, I said that earlier.

I would like to say, so the county, excuse me for being so rushed, but I'd like to get to the merits of the request here.

and the county code section 18-34.3, small letter B, would you say that it just echoes what you just told me the state code says?

Can you tell me the package?

It is attached.

Any appeal shall be in writing.

Attachment CD.

Yeah, page eight of the packet.

That's right.

The packet is numbered on the bottom of the packet page?

Correct, correct.

No, no.

Page two.

Yeah, it gets a little confusing with the numbering.

Yes, the distinction is that the county ordinances, they placed the word shall in front of state, the grounds for the appeal, which is not the way it's worded in the state code.

Well, the state code, how would you say is different?

Thank you, sir.

That's all I wanted to know.

Let me ask you another question.

You raise the distinction between mandatory and discretionary language.

Directory language, not discretionary.

Directory, OK.

Mandatory language, what would you say a statute that had mandatory language

A mandatory language.

Well, you're bringing an interesting point up.

I don't know.

I'm a law professor.

OK, I appreciate you bringing it up.

Let me pull one of my references.

No, I believe that.

There's several instances in which the Supreme Court has said that the word shall is sometimes mandatory, but other times directory.

Well, no.

As Mr. Herrick said, most cases, and I agree with him, read the word shall as mandatory language.

I appreciate this.

I think if you read the state code provision,

It says shall be filed within 30 days.

I think the 30 day timeframe is a hard cutoff.

I think that has been affirmed by the Supreme Court.

If you don't get in the door in 30 days, you're out.

But I don't think any case exists that says if you file

No, I'm making a distinction between the way that language is worded in the state code

In Virginia, does the state code have a powerful effect on local government's discretion in terms of wording their ordinances?

Dillon's rule, well, Dillon's rule says that you can only exercise those powers which have been explicitly given to you by the state or that are implied

Exactly right.

And so I'll end my inquiry.

I would argue, sir, that first of all, this is language that is mandatory language.

The shall applies to both time limit and the specificity of grounds.

Your client and you were probably not engaged at that time.

And I don't blame you for this because I'm sure you would have specified grounds had you been engaged.

Your client failed to specify the grounds.

And my reading of the statute is this is a procedural statute like statute of limitations.

Your client has missed the 30-day filing because of the inadequacy of the appeal.

I would add, I appreciate your position, I would add that

I think there is a reason that the county code was drafted with a distinction in its language.

And I think that the county code has, the county itself maybe had attempted to back up what you've just suggested that the grounds are mandatory, but by inserting that shall in front of that statement, but they read differently, they're worded differently.

I believe that the county code is an attempt to

narrow or introduce a mandatory provision where there is not one in the state code.

That's my position.

And I think it's up to you as a board to decide how you should interpret this because it's probably, as I think Mr. Herrick admitted, it's a novel thing being raised and a novel point.

And I think it's up to you all as representatives of the community and as members who are here

Thank you very much.

I'd like to, before we proceed any further into this, and I'll certainly yield to counsel on this in terms of the procedural aspects, but I'd like to have a discussion amongst the board members

the issue of whether to dismiss this or not before we move forward.

Is that acceptable?

Certainly.

Okay, thank you.

I'd like to ask my colleagues here if they have any thoughts on this because some very interesting issues have been raised and I think listening to Mr. Rosenberg, I think there are valid points that have been

Yes.

Right, and I guess the other thing that I noticed in the staff report is that at one point in time with the

Page 21, okay.

What I'm seeing in here is a discussion under the note that was created by Mr. McCall and it says that he spoke with the the appellant's attorney and

gave him civil access for him to upload his grounds of appeal.

And the date on that is 10-7-2025.

So in October, the appellant had the ability to update the reasons for the appeal.

There's all this time we have all these folks here who wanna know what's happened, wanna know what the argument is defending the use of whatever is happening on this property and no one gets that.

So it's not something that's good for the community in general to try to figure out and do their own research.

It's not good for the BZA to get information a week before

The meeting is to be held and we also do our research.

I mean, as staff can tell you that we go through the ordinance, we do interpretations on our own of what the ordinance is.

So this is a group that doesn't

unfortunately, I'm so sorry, doesn't always just do exactly what staff proposes.

In this instance, they are spot on that we should receive information so that we're able to look at this intelligently and make an intelligent decision.

Excuse me, sir.

I'm in agreement with both my colleagues.

Do I hear a second, please?

Second.

Ms. Joseph?

Aye.

Aye.

This will conclude this matter under item number three.

We'll move on in the agenda to the approval of the minutes for June 3, 2025.

Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure if the public understands what just happened.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

We're just kind of running through this.

We took a motion up that would dismiss, which means essentially, as you heard my colleague and Mr.

Bowling say, this essentially upholds the determination by the zoning administrator in this issue.

Correct.

So this matter has been decided.

And I wanna thank all of you for showing up, the applicant and his attorney for showing up as well as county staff for being here as well.

Otherwise, can I add one more thing?

If I may add, this is not necessarily the end of the matter.

As Mr. Seib knows, the next step would be to file a lawsuit in the Circuit Court.

I believe that's where it is, where jurisdiction lies.

and he can take the matter up before a circuit court judge, but that is expensive and time consuming.

What I would admonish the property owner to do is to perhaps work on some of these violations with the county.

and to do the kinds of things that needed to be done probably a long time ago.

This is a neighborhood, I've never been there, but from the photos and from the description, it's a very nice neighborhood and I'm sure you'd make your neighbors who feel a strong sense of place with that location happy and you probably would

make yourself happy by having a better, higher quality property without large trucks and other debris.

procedurally after we've had this matter.

Can we have the appellant's attorney make a closing statement?

That's up to you, Mr. Chairman.

Yes, I will welcome that.

I'm going to greatly appreciate being recognized because this is sort of a novel issue.

I appreciate you recognizing me one more time.

I do want to add that I mentioned it in my argument but didn't really emphasize it.

that my client did provide me with a copy of a letter which he did state his grounds of appeal, which was filed by him prior to filing the appeal.

As a lay person, it's difficult to expect them, a property owner or any other citizen to follow this process.

And I'm gonna ask if you would at least consider a motion to reconsider your action and to accept evidence on this letter that was submitted by my client.

I think it would just lead us to a more just result here and be able to air the issue since everyone is present for this matter today.

Alternatively, if you did reconsider, we could carry the matter over to the next meeting date and then have a full airing.

Thank you Mr. Chairman, if the appellate applicant wants to bring a further motion before you, my recommendation is this case is over and it should be done in writing and within time and to consider that matter at a later meeting.

But this case has been decided.

So my understanding is a motion to reconsider is a proper one of those voting in affirmative.

I agree with council that if there is a formal request it should be done in a formal fashion and in writing so we could with grounds to be supplied so that we make a complete request understood and understandable to both the county staff and to the board.

We only have three of the five of us here and so to persuade maybe the other two

of the merits of a reconsideration because I don't know enough more information to make me think that this deserves it.

Move on.

We have a member of the public that would like to speak.

Yes, sir.

Please step forward, state your name, and identify yourself.

Thank the board for listening to me for just a minute.

My name is Ed Basham.

I'm a property owner in the community.

This is not the first time that this problem has been in front of you all.

And with no malice, of course, to Mr. King at all.

But the fact is, this is a very nice neighborhood.

There's 54 homes.

The average tax assessment's a little over $750,000.

The homes were built in the late 60s and early 70s.

They're all well cared for and maintained.

And it's a very tight, close-knit neighborhood.

It's a pleasure to live there.

The real issue, in spite of all, and I'm not an attorney, don't profess to be, all the legal details that have been argued here

The bottom line is that Mr. King has this morning a ditch witch trenching machine, a very old medium duty truck chassis, a very old medium duty dump truck, several trailers, a snowplow, which none of these vehicles have the snowplow attachment on it to operate it, and some other

Smaller debris.

I think the real issue is to get this debris off the property.

It doesn't belong there.

It hasn't been moved for months, in some cases years.

The snowplow's been there as long as I can remember.

So really do all that.

The details, this needs to be resolved.

And the other thing, the fines are somewhat incremental.

Realizing the cost of property and leasing rates in this area, it will cost Mr. King more to rent a lot to store this property than the fines are.

So he has no real incentive at this point to move the debris away.

So I appreciate you hearing me.

I know you've made your decision and I appreciate that.

And I hope you all have a good day.

Thank you.

Thank you, sir.

Yes.

Mr. Chairman, could I be heard?

There's some benefit for finality and what we have here is a continuation of a hearing in which you've made a ruling.

Thank you very much.

We have made our decision.

Okay, we'll move on in this meeting to item number four, approval of the minutes for the June 3rd, 2025 meeting.

I assume my colleagues have had an opportunity to read these.

And a second, please.

Second.

Ms. Joseph?

Aye.

Aye.

OK, a vote of 3 to 0.

The motion carries for approval of the minutes of the June 3, 2025 meeting.

Mr. Chairman, before you do, I sent you an email this morning, and I'm going to leave for the reasons which I've already talked with.

Yes, sir.

That's acceptable, and I apologize for any inconvenience.

OK, we'll move on to old business.

There is currently no old business on the agenda.

I would just like any information that you guys have on the gun case.

Is that still going on?

I think you've gotten the answer.

Nothing to report on that.

No news.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Is there any other old business that we need to discuss?

Okay.

Going on a new business, we have the BCA annual report.

I assume everybody's had a chance to take a look at that.

Okay.

Were there any notations that I know that's already been submitted to the Board of Supervisors, correct?

So are there any amendments, any additional comments that should follow?

I guess not.

I don't have any.

Budget discussion is the next item.

It's been conveyed to me that there will be a $1,000 increase in the FY 26-27 budget for BZA legal counsel bringing that light item up to $6,000.

Is there any further discussion about budget and what lies ahead?

So we, Bart Svoboda, Zoning Administrator, Albemarle County, we talked about that early on in the process so we could make sure that we got the request in this year.

It was added to the budget.

We are in the county itself is in the beginning.

of the budget cycle.

So it won't be until January sometime where they start to really dig into it after it gets through finance and recommendations from the finance department to the board.

So once the budget hearings start after the first year, that's when we'll know more.

Well, I'm still concerned about the lack of alternates on this board.

I think for any hearing, I think to give the benefit to the public, to the county, to the VCA, to the appellant, I think it's always good to have a full board seated at every opportunity.

We've talked about this now for well over two years.

At what point in the budget presentations would you suggest in January that we come before the board to ask for funding?

And again, it's minimal at $85 a meeting.

And we've had only a couple of meetings this year.

My gosh, for a couple of hundred dollars, we could have an alternate funded.

And I think that the board of supervisors, especially with two new members coming in, may not fully grasp the

the importance that this body has in the cog of economic development within the county.

I plan to go to one of the board meetings at their three minutes in an item that's not before the board and remind them that we asked them to do something to take action and we were ignored.

Pretty much.

So I think that that comes along with discussion on the budget.

And what Kurt's talking about with economic development, I mean, it's really important for this group

to do what we do.

I mean we're talking with people in this audience we're talking about the value of their properties and if we don't do our job then who's going to want to bring their company here and who's going to want to live here.

So I think part of what we do is to maintain

the character according to the zoning ordinance so I really think that the new members of the board I'd be very happy and willing to talk to them about what our role is how important it is and it's something that the state code is really encourages in in localities so just kind of

and just so that you guys know what's going on because I plan on going and I plan on asking Kurt to go with me because he's the one he and I did the research and he can always you know stuff a sock in me if I'm going to.

No, it's going to be a surprise.

Can I add something?

Are there new members to the Board of Supervisors?

of the five, there are two new ones.

Here's something I'd suggest and maybe this is separate and apart from this budget request is what you were saying, sometimes new people don't really understand the functioning of the different parts of this land use system.

and I'm not saying take a lot of time with them but do something to explain to them what the BZA and maybe the Planning Commission wants to do it too to kind of just explain to the new members and maybe to the existing ones too in five or 10 minutes what we do and why it's significant and just make a short presentation and maybe Kurt would be the one but

because a new person might know about economics or taxes or something, but not know anything about land use regulation at all.

And he's landscape architect and he is- He's probably- Yeah.

And he's been on the architecture review board.

He's been on the planning commission.

The fifth one?

No, I don't think it's unnecessary.

So I think that it's important for not just the new members.

I think it's important that everybody sort of gets a refresher course.

on how these different agencies work.

Okay.

I have nothing more to add on that.

The next item is upcoming meeting information.

I would like to add something to that topic.

I would like us to have a discussion about the application process because it was totally unclear to me what page the application was.

I didn't see any kind of signature from the applicant.

It was just kind of wifty.

In the olden days, there was a paper

copy and the applicant signed it and there it was and it was very clear to the applicant that they had to submit that information within that time frame.

Yep, and we've heard that already, and we believe that with the new system, which is still in its infancy, even though it's almost a year old,

We're dealing with that.

That's how we've had to process that.

So yes, we're fully aware of that with a number of applications that we do have already.

And we've been making adjustments all year long as far as for different things.

And this is just one of them that we need to do that with.

The appellant's attorney say that staff helped write the application.

And I thought, well, this is not a good thing.

Because if that's happening, if it's so complicated,

that staff has to help.

I mean, they're going to use that sort of argument.

And not to make any excuses, but there are certain constraints that we're just dealt with the system that we'll figure out and see if we can figure the way around to make sure that is it.

Because that's what we're here to do.

We're here to help.

And that's why the staff member helped Mr. King when he did come in.

And there needs to be some sort of affidavit or something that says, yes, staff, help me, but those words are mine.

I mean, it's just, I mean, I just thought, oh, you're opening the door for something here.

Good idea.

Can I ask Mr. Herrick a question, please?

Mr. Herrick, this fact pattern was kind of the nightmare scenario of maintenance of a residential lot with all the pictures and descriptions.

I was wondering,

Ordering the owner to do something is one thing.

So typically on appeals or on notices of violation that aren't appealed, they do become things decided.

They're typically taken to the general district court on a warrant in debt for civil penalties, with the first civil penalty being $200, subsequent civil penalties, which can accumulate every 10 days at $500.

for a maximum of $5,000 of civil penalties.

And in addition, with every additional court order, we can order the violator to abate the violation.

For the rare property owner that gets that $5,000 cap on civil penalties, it can then be a criminal enforcement.

So there's a variety.

Yeah because you know I think a non-cooperative property owner or someone who's not around and doesn't care you know because the the months that passed you know you were very the staff

was I think very understanding.

Maybe I'm a little too obsessed with compliance, but you seem to wait long enough and you gave him the opportunity to do, if it takes time, to hire people to move stuff or whatever.

And I was thinking at some point, I guess the county might say, we'll do it and we'll impose a charge and if you don't pay,

Yeah, there's different scenarios that we would pursue different things.

So to the CCO's credit, the Code Compliance Officer's credit, we do over 300 violations a year, right?

To have one, two, or three of them appealed to the BZA a year is pretty good, and to have a success rate of cleanup, because our goal is compliance, not penalty.

So if I have to get you to spend $1,000, I'd rather have you spend it all and stuff to the dump.

I know it's an unusual situation but I just was thinking what you know what if it's you know are there emergency powers if it's a serious you know nitroglycerin is a ridiculous example but you get my drift if there's something

Yeah, in those scenarios, that's going to be more probably in our emergency services, right?

Well, and the other partner that Mr. Svoboda neglected was the building official.

Oftentimes, it's a building or structural problem.

You know, structure's in danger of collapsing.

Yeah, but what if it was something that was carted on like these trucks that was a tanker?

I mean, I'm imagining the worst case scenario, and the tanker had residual acid or waste or petroleum or stuff.

And it was sort of abandoned.

In an abandoned vehicle, we would probably do a joint investigation with PD, fire department, the necessary agencies, possibly DEQ.

State agencies.

I have a question for you.

I was intrigued in this report.

How does a commercial dump truck, which is what one of those vehicles is, how does a truck that may have had a commercial life to it previous

get antique tags.

So I've looked at the DMV code and it is not for commercial vehicles.

So I'm just wondering, how did that slip through other than was it an error at DMV?

Was it intentional?

So I don't know off the top of my head and I'm hesitant to get into the underlying- I'm just curious, yeah.

Well, you know, this was an interesting case in that I think the people who were here and the fact they showed up, they cared a great deal about that this be rectified.

We're in an age where sometimes conflict results and they wouldn't want someone to get into a conflict situation with the property owner over

The property owner's not doing something because in this day and age, I can imagine all kinds of pretty bad scenarios.

So again, I have no idea.

This is not the worst violation we've seen.

It's also not the simplest, right?

But it's kind of middle of the road.

And when we have evidence for folks, we work with them and we get them cleaned up.

yes most of the time yes okay so this is unusual and that this occasionally does not happen yeah it's unusual that it comes to the appeal stage um i would say it's not unusual that we end up in court but it's also doesn't happen with every violation right right of course right so there's a small percentage of of the overall 300 that actually end up in court usually those and Mr. Herrick can

Let me interject here that we were under agenda item 6C for upcoming meeting information.

So I'd like to stick to the agenda, please.

If there's no further information about upcoming meeting, information about the January 6th meeting, I would entertain a motion to call this meeting of December 2nd, 2025 to a close.

Second.

Ms. Joseph?

Aye.