Central Virginia
Albemarle County
Planning Commission Work Session and Regular Meeting 2/10/2026
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Planning Commission Work Session and Regular Meeting
2/10/2026
Attachments
Agenda.pdf
Minutes.pdf
Action Memo.pdf
ZTA-2024-00001 Rio29 Form-Based Code Updates Staff Report.pdf
Attach. 1 - ZTA-2024-00001 Rio29 Form-Based Code Updates – FBC Work Session #1 Staff Report.pdf
Attach. 2 - ZTA-2024-00001 Rio29 Form-Based Code Updates – Revised Rio29 Form-Based Code.pdf
Attach. 3 - ZTA-2024-00001 Rio29 Form-Based Code Updates – Existing Rio29 Form-Based Code.pdf
Attach. 4 - ZTA-2024-00001 Rio29 Form-Based Code Updates – Revised Rio29 Form-Based Zoning Map.pdf
Attach. 5 - ZTA-2024-00001 Rio29 Form-Based Code Updates – Existing Rio29 Form-Based Zoning Map.pdf
ZMA-2025-00007 and SUB-2025-00239 Windy Knoll PC Staff Report.pdf
Attach. 1 - ZMA-2025-00007 and SUB-2025-00239 – Windy Knoll – Existing Conditions Map.pdf
Attach. 2 - ZMA-2025-00007 and SUB-2025-00239 – Windy Knoll – Zoning Map.pdf
Attach. 3 - ZMA-2025-00007 – Windy Knoll – Narrative.pdf
Attach. 4 - ZMA-2025-00007 – Windy Knoll – Conceptual Plan.pdf
Attach. 4a - ZMA-2025-00007 - Windy Knoll - Revised Concept Plan with Pedestrian Path 2026-02-09.pdf
Attach. 5 - ZMA-2025-00007 – Windy Knoll – Draft Proffer Statement.pdf
Attach. 5a - ZMA-2025-00007 Windy Knoll - Revised Draft Proffer Statement 2026-02-06.pdf
Attach. 6 - SUB-2025-00239 Narrative – Windy Knoll – Sidewalk Waiver Request.pdf
Attach. 7 - SUB-2025-00239 – Windy Knoll – Planting Strip Waiver Request.pdf
Attach. 8 - ZMA-2025-00007 – Windy Knoll – Public Comments Received via Email.pdf
ZTA202300006 RBPS Staff Report PC 02_10_2026.pdf
Att 1 – ZTA202300006, WPTA202300003, STA202300003, OTA202400002 Ri Proposed Ordinance.pdf
Att 2 – ZTA202300006, WPTA202300003, STA202300003, OTA202400002 Riparia DSM Additions.pdf
Draft PC Minutes 01_13_2026.pdf
1. Call to order and establish quorum.
▶︎
0:06
2. Establish Quorum
▶︎
0:11
3. Work Session.
▶︎
0:37
a. ZTA202400001 Rio29 Form-Based Code
▶︎
0:37
ZTA202400001 Rio29 Form-Based Code.pdf
4. Public Comment on matters pending before the Commission, but not listed for a Public Hearing on this agenda.
▶︎
1:22:18
5. Consent Agenda (on next sheet).
▶︎
1:22:30
6. Public Hearing.
▶︎
1:23:31
a. ZMA-2025-00007 Windy Knoll
▶︎
1:23:41
ZMA-2025-00007 Windy Knoll.pdf
b. ZTA202300006, WPTA202300003, STA202300003, OTA202400002 Riparian Buffer Protection Standards
▶︎
3:18:29
ZTA202300006, WPTA202300003, STA202300003, OTA202400002 Riparian.pdf
7. Committee Reports.
▶︎
4:14:48
8. Review of Board of Supervisors Meeting: January 14, 2026, and January 21, 2026, February 4, 2026
▶︎
4:19:33
9. New Business.
▶︎
4:22:22
10. Old Business: PC Committee Assignments
▶︎
4:22:25
11. Items for follow-up.
SPEAKER_04
00:00:01
We're live.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:00:06
We're called to order the Albemarle County Planning Commission for February 10th, 2026.
00:00:11
Madam Clerk, will you have the role to establish quorum, please?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:00:16
Yes.
00:00:17
Mr. Moore?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:00:19
Present.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:00:19
Mr. Murray?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:00:21
Present.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:00:22
Mr. Clayborne?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:00:23
Present.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:00:24
Mr. Carrazana?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:00:25
Here.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:00:27
Ms. Firehock is not at the four o'clock meeting, but should he be here by six and Ms. King.
00:00:32
Present.
00:00:33
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:00:35
Thank you.
00:00:37
And now we're moving into a work session or CTA 2024-1, Ryle 29 form-based code.
00:00:48
Staff, can we have the presentation?
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:00:53
Yes, hi.
00:00:54
My name is Mariah Gleason.
00:00:55
I'm a senior planner in the Planning Division of Community Development.
00:00:59
This is the second of two work sessions with the Planning Commission about proposed changes to the Route 29 form-based code.
00:01:06
Can you hear me?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:01:07
Mariah, if you don't mind, can you speak a little bit more to the mic there?
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:01:12
Great.
00:01:13
Is that better?
00:01:13
Okay.
00:01:16
This presentation focuses on the questions in the staff report.
00:01:20
I've grouped the questions into three topics, so there will be three breaks in the presentation to allow discussion on a few questions at a time, but I'd be happy to answer any questions about either of the staff reports or presentations.
00:01:34
I'm joined today by our consultant team, Todd Gordon with EPR and Joe Cole from Dover Coal and Partners who are joining us online for this meeting.
00:01:43
It may please the commission to know that the consultant team are form-based code experts and have worked on award-winning projects throughout the US, including Columbia Pike in Arlington, Virginia.
00:01:53
And we've been grateful for their help and contributions to this project.
00:01:58
So I'm going to hand the mic over to them so that they can introduce themselves.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:02:05
OK, Joseph, go right ahead.
SPEAKER_26
00:02:07
Sure.
00:02:07
Hi, I'm Joseph Cole with Dover, Cole & Partners.
00:02:11
It's a pleasure to be able to help on this project.
00:02:15
As the staff knows, I grew up in Charlottesville, even though I've lived most of my life down here in Florida.
00:02:20
I went to elementary school at Woodbrooke.
00:02:24
and I went to high school at Albemarle and my family went to church at the former Branchlands farm and it's been really interesting because my first memory of the Rio 29 intersection was I was probably like six years old
00:02:40
and the only thing that was there was Sam Joseph's Gulf gas station and the little superette that sold candy, that's probably why I can remember it, run by his wife next to it and there was nothing else at that intersection and Rio was one lane in each direction and 29 was probably not too
00:03:02
Long having been a divided highway and I guess they hadn't done any regrading because the western side was higher than the eastern side of the highway so I remember having to look
00:03:19
whenever my parents were trying to turn left to go south on 29 to make sure there was no cars coming up the hill because the visibility there was really bad.
00:03:30
So growing up in the Berkeley neighborhood and later in Carsbrook, this was my downtown.
00:03:39
Growing up and all through my through my grade school years, the site of the mall was a cleared site of trees and sat vacant for all of those years until I got to high school.
00:03:55
So transformation in this part of the county seems natural since I watched it growing up.
00:04:04
And so that's why I've been very excited about having to help it transform into something better than what I saw happening as I was growing up.
00:04:14
And Mariah said, my office has a lot of experience in form-based codes.
00:04:20
I was one of the founders of the Form-Based Code Institute, which was a private not-for-profit, but is now part of Smart Growth America in DC, and so I'm still involved in that capacity.
00:04:34
And so I've had the real pleasure of being able to travel all over the United States and work on foreign-based codes.
00:04:40
And I have to say your staff here has been awesome.
00:04:44
I don't think I have worked with another municipal staff that has spent the time and effort scrutinizing every little rule and weighing things out and justifying everything.
00:04:55
So kudos to them.
00:04:56
It's very commendable.
SPEAKER_32
00:05:00
And I'm Todd Gordon.
00:05:01
I'm principal planner at EPR with offices here in Charlottesville.
00:05:06
We've had the opportunity to work with Albemarle County on a number of projects, including the comprehensive plan, as well as zoning, trail building, broadband strategy and more.
00:05:17
And so we have been happy to partner with Joe as well as with staff as a sort of local partner and a firm familiar with development and zoning in the Commonwealth.
00:05:30
I'm also a resident of the county.
00:05:32
I'm here at my home in Crozet.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:05:44
Thank you.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:05:48
All right.
00:05:48
We're also joined in the audience by Leah Brumfield with Zoning and Jamie Powers, the climate action plan manager.
00:05:55
And they're available to answer questions and help with the discussion.
00:06:01
For today's session, I'll provide a brief overview and background of the project and then followed by an overview of work session one and what we heard in that meeting touching on the big topics.
00:06:14
And then we'll get into the questions posted posed to the commission in the staff report.
00:06:19
And we have eight questions for you today.
00:06:23
As a bit of background, what is the Rio 29 form-based code?
00:06:27
So the county adopted its first form-based code and being the Rio 29 form-based code in September 2021 as an implementation tool of the Rio 29 small area plan.
00:06:38
For context, as it may be helpful, the difference between a form-based code and more traditional zoning districts is that form-based codes focus on buildings, sidewalks, and streets, and how they all work together to create a place that encourages activity.
00:06:53
Form-based codes focus on the outside of the building rather than the inside as we would traditionally with land uses and residential densities.
00:07:03
The form-based code allows dense urban development by right, but it's also an optional zoning district.
00:07:09
In other words, landowners are able to choose between by right development under the form-based code or the underlying zoning district assigned to the property.
00:07:19
Knowing the county is new to form-based codes, we anticipated that the first projects highlighted in teal on the map would reveal problems with the code, and that has proven to be the case.
00:07:29
So in April 2024, the Board of Supervisors adopted a resolution to amend the Rio 29 form-based code.
00:07:35
And based on what we've learned and heard through numerous discussions with the design and development community, we've proposed changes that address aspects of the form-based code that were problematic while still achieving the goals of the Rio 29 small area plan.
00:07:49
In the first work session we discussed six fundamental changes to the form-based code.
00:07:54
The two that are important for our discussion tonight are the proposed changes to the character area boundaries and the streets.
00:08:00
So starting with the first character area boundaries, the form-based code is organized into three character areas and the character area designations identify the intensity of development as well as the level of activity.
00:08:11
The core areas shown in red have the densest development and highest levels of activity.
00:08:15
They act as focal points.
00:08:18
White areas are flex areas which allow greater variation in building form while focusing on safe, comfortable bike and pedestrian connections.
00:08:26
to and within the overlay district.
00:08:29
Edge areas, shown in blue, have a lower development intensity providing an intentional transition between dense urban development and existing single-family neighborhoods located along the boundaries of the district.
00:08:41
There are two issues with the current map.
00:08:44
First, the core area is centered on the intersection of Ryle Road and Route 29 to high-speed, high-volume roads.
00:08:52
This positions dense urban developments up against two high traffic roads, which creates concerns about pedestrian safety and the ability to create a successful pedestrian-oriented environment.
00:09:03
So there's a natural tension between the design intent of the core and the character of the adjacent arterial roadways.
00:09:10
The second issue is that the form-based code requires commercial or retail uses on the ground floors of every development within the core.
00:09:18
With the core area being 109 acres in size, we found that the core is just too expansive for that requirement.
00:09:24
It dilutes instead of concentrating commercial activity.
00:09:31
So to address these issues, staff offer two changes to the map.
00:09:35
The first is shifting the core areas to align with existing shopping centers, Rio Hill Shopping Center, Albemarle Square, and Fashion Square Mall, where in these areas, there's already a density of commercial activity present and the ownership isn't as fractured.
00:09:48
And this essentially separates this high-speed vehicular corridors from areas that are meant to prioritize pedestrians and the pedestrian experience.
00:09:58
And the proposed organization of character areas is similar to the squares design that was offered with the small area plan when that was going on.
00:10:08
In the proposed map, parcels that are no longer core would be redesignated as flex, shown in white.
00:10:15
and there are no changes to the locations or extents of the edge areas, shown in blue.
00:10:22
The second change is the addition of a new destination streets street type.
00:10:27
A good example of the look and feel of the street type is Bond Street at the shops at Stonefield.
00:10:31
So similar to Bond Street, these street types are envisioned to be at least 1,200 feet in length, which is a little less than a quarter mile.
00:10:38
and requirements for ground floor commercial uses would be tailored to this streets type instead of every street type within the core.
00:10:45
These streets fundamentally act as a mechanism for creating commercial focal points within core areas supporting the facilitation of mixed-use development.
00:10:55
And I've generalized these takeaways.
00:10:59
But getting into what we heard in the first work session, the big aspects were about clarifying the proposed street types and functions, a desire to see the RIA 29 form-based code encourage stormwater management, housing, and parking garages, and the need for more incentives to develop.
00:11:18
to develop under the form-based code.
00:11:21
Woven through that last point, but really the whole discussion was this underlying question of how we encourage developers to opt into the Rio 29 form-based code.
00:11:29
Understanding there aren't a lot of incentives now, what we've consistently heard is that the ability to do high-density residential
00:11:36
development without a rezoning is attractive to the development community.
00:11:40
There are other opportunities for incentives but what we want to do is avoid creating a sentiment that development under the form-based code is more burdensome than other zoning districts.
00:11:54
So in other words development under the form-based code should be no more difficult than development under other zoning districts if we want to encourage development like this.
00:12:06
So now I'll stop with the background and get to our questions today.
00:12:10
As I said earlier, we've organized the questions from the staff report into three groups, but each individual question has a slide like this one, which has the question from the staff report, a reminder of the problem,
00:12:22
and then possible solutions.
00:12:24
So where it was appropriate, I mapped possible solutions on a sliding scale of least flexible to the left to most flexible on the right and identified where the current form-based code and the recommended change each land on that scale.
00:12:38
We can come back to these individual slides whenever you like.
00:12:41
Their purpose is to support discussion.
00:12:45
For the first question, the problem was a hesitance within the development community to be an early adopter of the Rio 29 form-based code and limit future development opportunities.
00:12:57
Right now, the current form-based code does not permit opting out.
00:13:00
Once a property has opted in and the proposed changes recommend allowing properties the option to opt out if the site plan is not built and it expires, which is about five years.
00:13:14
Well, it's five years and then whatever the state code allows if there are extensions.
00:13:20
And the second question, the problem that we've identified is that large mall properties assigned to the core area have to undergo a special exception process to phase development and retain existing buildings.
00:13:33
Right now there's a board approved special exception available if the applicant desires to phase development and retain those buildings.
00:13:43
and the proposed changes, the agent would be able to approve phased development of existing buildings on properties of 15 acres or more.
00:13:56
So the third question, building form and architecture requirements in the form-based code make it difficult to incorporate existing buildings within the developments.
00:14:06
So the current form-based code requires board approval to relieve existing buildings from both building form and architectural standards.
00:14:14
and the proposed code recommends retaining board approval for architectural standards but narrows the number of building form requirements to just focus on making sure that primary entrances are facing streets or civic spaces and that future additions make the building or buildings more rather than less consistent with other code requirements.
00:14:37
So getting to our first group of questions, what are your thoughts?
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:14:45
Could you go back just to the slide for each question that has the...
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:14:55
Okay.
00:14:57
Anybody want to tackle one of the questions?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:14:59
I'll go.
00:15:01
So, I mean, I think five years is too short, but I do think opting out is a reasonable thing.
00:15:08
I think, I wonder, something more along 10 years.
00:15:12
But, I mean, that's just my own thoughts.
00:15:15
I mean, I think, you know, five years is such a short time span, you know, given the scope of a lot of developments, you know, just seems it would be a little too easy.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:15:31
Please do a follow-up because mine's a little different.
00:15:39
So just for clarity, so it's the five years, when does that start?
00:15:47
When they make the application or when do you have a final site plan?
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:15:51
It starts as soon as the site plan is approved the day that it's signed.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:15:56
So it's after you have an approved site plan, then you get five years.
00:16:02
I mean, the process could take a lot longer than that, right?
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:16:05
And that's existing rules, too, right?
00:16:09
Like that expires after five years.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:16:12
Yes, that's in our larger zoning ordinance as the final, the expiration date of a final site plan, five years is true across all zoning districts.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:16:23
But to be clear here, the idea is this is a pull-down district.
00:16:29
Basically, you have to work with that district while your site plan is valid.
00:16:33
That's not the same in a different district where you have your base zoning, and you come back and put another site plan.
00:16:39
I'm sure the people would come back and put a revised site plan for form-based code.
00:16:43
But the idea is to try and create some sort of tenure.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:16:47
No, of course, yeah.
00:16:48
And this is just saying that if somebody
00:16:50
has the site plan, hasn't done anything on it in five years, they can pull out if they want to.
00:16:55
And I think I'll just jump on sort of overall, and I think answers this question as well, that we've had what, five, six years of this form-based code or the Rio small area plan and very few projects.
00:17:10
And so I think, obviously I think more flexibility is going to be needed to be able to pull off anything near what the original intent was.
00:17:18
and so I don't want to necessarily go that full flexibility just, oh yeah, just pull out any time.
00:17:23
I think this middle zone is a good recommendation.
00:17:25
It makes a lot of sense and feels pretty reasonable that if somebody's got the site plan, hasn't even put a shovel in the dirt in five years, then they can reset.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:17:40
That's a great presentation.
00:17:42
I think overall, I think I feel okay with what's highlighted here, but I was wondering if you could just take a step back and provide some context around this notion of being able to opt in versus opt out, just conceptually, and where is that done successfully around the country?
00:17:58
It almost seems like given the choice, you're probably not gonna do it, right?
00:18:02
But I'm just curious, could you just take a step back and provide context around
00:18:07
that piece and not to relitigate if we made the right decision or not, but just some context there.
00:18:13
And who does that successfully?
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:18:15
I'm not sure who does it successfully.
00:18:17
I think that one of the unique aspects of this code is that this is an optional zoning district.
00:18:22
So there are aspects of the newness of this.
00:18:27
I wonder if our consultant might have some insight on a greater context to that, but I would say that this
00:18:36
Even tackling this issue was really the seed of it came from the development community when we asked them what would entice you to opt into this district.
00:18:48
This was one of the comments that came back was there is some hesitancy because it's new and they don't know the process yet and it's requiring a lot.
00:18:59
So if they're trying to give their clients some
00:19:03
some map of how to get their development approved.
00:19:07
They noticed that their client was having a lot of hesitancy and the lack of flexibility to opt out.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:19:14
I wonder if I could even back up to both.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:19:22
Go ahead and talk.
SPEAKER_26
00:19:27
Oh, I just wanted to add, it's kind of like you need to wonder why somebody would want to undo something they started.
00:19:36
Usually it's because the property changes ownership.
00:19:41
We've seen so many times where developers come in gung-ho.
00:19:44
and they've got their plan whether it's a good one or a bad one.
00:19:47
And then for whatever reason that the corporate structure or the company structure or the goals of that individual, if it's not a company, changes.
00:20:00
and so that might be the reason why it would change.
00:20:05
If, as the governing body, if we're really wanting to make this place walkable, then it seems like you'd want to try to get them to stick to it.
00:20:18
The other thing that happens is that people come in just like, you know, the house flippers.
00:20:22
They'll come in and buy commercial property as an investment and then try to
00:20:26
If someone was buying the property with the rules in place to make the place walkable then they might
00:20:38
The ones that would purchase it would be the ones that would want to do that as well.
00:20:42
So that's all the more reason to try to keep some of the rules tied to the ground for as long as you can.
00:20:48
But I do think it might be unreasonable to think a really long time or to tie them indefinitely.
00:20:56
It might be better to loosen that up for the long term.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:21:02
I wondered if I could ask a zoom out clarifying question because this is all about kind of opt-in and it's like, oh, here's a carrot, here's a carrot, here's a carrot, and all we've got are these carrots and we're trying to make the carrots look more attractive.
00:21:14
And I'm curious, and I'll be frank, the development of the small area plan predates my time on this commission, so I wasn't involved in the inner discussions, but is there a reason why this has to be an opt-in zoning district versus just making it the zoning?
00:21:32
I mean, why does it have to be opt-in in this way?
00:21:37
Why can't we just make it the zoning?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:21:39
I think the decision was basically to establish as an opt-in as opposed to, and people had certain rights on some of the commercial properties pre-existing this, so as opposed to having a comprehensive rezoning, if you will, for this area.
00:21:52
This was the pathway that was selected.
00:21:55
Just a softer version.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:21:56
Okay.
00:21:59
That, I guess, is the sort of political question that got answered at the time.
00:22:04
Those were the considerations.
00:22:06
I mean, given that, I do still think that, and that was a good explanation.
00:22:10
Thank you for that about the property ownership being the most common.
00:22:13
I don't know who to point to because it was by Zoom.
00:22:16
But yeah, again, I think just the flexibility to, again, if we're going to make it opt in, the flexibility to actually make some things happen would be more beneficial than putting barriers in play or leaving barriers in place that accidentally keep things from happening.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:22:40
So my question is more about why we want the time to be long.
00:22:49
So facing it off of what the gentleman said online, if
00:22:56
if the property is going to be purchased by potential developers and we have a current owner who wants to market it, and they put in a site plan for a potential buyer at form-based code, and then that buyer goes away, we're then restricting that seller from selling it again to somebody who might want to use existing buy-write zoning.
00:23:20
So I actually don't understand
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:23:23
Why have it at all?
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:23:24
Why have it at all?
00:23:25
I personally don't see what I know we want people to go that way and we want to make it easy for them to redevelop the property.
00:23:34
So let's make it easy for them to do that.
00:23:38
If we're going to give them an option, give them both options.
00:23:40
Why is there a five year period?
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:23:42
Yeah, well, I think there's two questions that are coming out on this.
00:23:45
There's one question that's about a time frame.
00:23:47
How long should they have to wait before opting out?
00:23:49
And there's a second question about if they've already developed to form-based code, should they still have the opportunity to opt out?
00:23:56
Are you trying to say in all?
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:23:59
I didn't understand that to be the question, though, right?
00:24:02
Because this is if they don't build at all.
00:24:04
OK. And it expires, right?
00:24:05
That's what we're talking about?
00:24:06
Right.
00:24:07
I didn't know whether you were expanding the question or not.
00:24:09
If they've already opted in and they've already started developing the parcel to form-based code, it's form-based code.
00:24:15
But if they just have an approved site plan and then they want to submit, but they haven't built anything.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:24:23
And they want to go back to the underlying rezoning or the underlying zoning district that previously existed on the property.
00:24:29
I think the part of the, I can see an argument for that.
00:24:34
We could even reconsider that
00:24:38
I think the point was to try and look you've gone through this we need you to you know both you and the county are working on this project together and to try and to give it some time where it has to they're in this district we're working together on that it's I say that that's not as strong of an argument maybe but that was the intent yeah I mean I'm in favor of
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:25:07
My experience, which is limited, has been if you want to develop your site by right, submit a site plan.
00:25:15
If that's not approved, or even if it is approved and you want to amend it, you have the right to amend it.
00:25:20
There's no waiting period to amend it.
00:25:23
So I would be in favor of more flexible.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:25:32
Okay.
00:25:33
Did you have any
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:25:35
I thought it was an interesting thing that you brought up, Stonefield, because the history of that site, originally it was, some of you may remember it, it came forward as Albemarle Place, it looked very different, it was much more, you had shops at the bottom, residences up top, and then after that the original developer ended up
00:26:01
you know, selling, I don't know the exact details, but basically, but you know, the entire plan ended up being switched, so the residential is now not part of Stonefield.
00:26:12
And I would say that the Stonefield we got is not as good as the plan that was originally proposed.
00:26:20
Now,
00:26:22
Maybe that was just the economic reality and there's nothing that could have been done.
00:26:26
But if there was something we could have done to persuade that original vision to being a little bit closer, it would have been great if that was there.
00:26:36
But I don't, you know, just for point of example.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:26:47
Moving on to number two.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:26:49
Well, if we could clarify, I think we've heard everything from zero to 10 years.
00:26:54
Is there some consensus that staff could hone in on?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:26:58
I know that you got a unanimous agreement here.
00:27:09
I mean, I think there's what I heard is that there is some general agreement around having some flexibility.
00:27:16
The question is how much?
00:27:17
So no one's saying you can't opt out.
00:27:20
So I think everybody's saying you can, you should have given up out.
00:27:23
The question is, is the five-year the right time?
00:27:26
Is this, you know, given five years for the site plan once that expires?
00:27:32
Personally, I think that's appropriate from my perspective.
00:27:38
There should be some commitment to it.
00:27:41
I mean, we have applications here that come in for a CMA or STA, and then there's a change in those site plans.
00:27:50
They don't wind up the way it was presented.
00:27:54
And sometimes it's after the final approval and there's changes.
00:27:58
So I think there should be some
00:28:00
commitment, and five years seems reasonable to me.
00:28:05
You have a five-year plan, you know, with your site plan, and once that expires, then it can open up again.
Michael Monaco
00:28:12
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:28:14
But I don't know that I'm speaking for everybody here.
00:28:17
I think you heard a couple different voices, but everybody is in agreement with the flexibility.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:28:25
I think given the clarity that was given about when the five years starts, I'm okay with five years.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:28:31
Thank you.
00:28:38
Question two or question three can answer both at the same time.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:28:49
Oh, I'm sorry.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:28:51
I was just saying we can move on to question two and three if we want to tackle them together or separately.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:29:00
I think our intent was we gave you eight questions, and we tried to group them into some categories.
00:29:06
If we really take them individually, we can.
00:29:09
If we can discuss them jointly, it might save us time.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:29:12
Yeah, I mean, I don't think we need to feel that if we have general agreement, we say agree with Q2, agree with Q3.
00:29:20
If there's some conversation we want to have around any particular one, then we can certainly do that.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:29:24
Yeah, could you pull up question two, the slide for that, real quick?
00:29:31
In this one, I would actually go for allow phase development to retain buildings by right.
00:29:39
I think if we're talking about sustainability and we're talking about, I think it makes more sense to do whatever we can to encourage people to reuse existing structures.
00:29:51
So offering them that flexibility, I don't see a good reason to not allow people to use buildings by right.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:30:05
I agree.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:30:05
I'm putting question three on there, just the different options there.
00:30:13
Yeah.
00:30:15
So question two, I'm in favor of phasing above 15 acres.
00:30:20
I think that makes a lot of sense.
00:30:21
These large projects often have complicated financing and the rest.
00:30:25
Phases makes a lot of sense there.
00:30:28
For question three, if you don't mind going back, I know I'm just dancing around on the slide deck.
00:30:32
Thank you.
00:30:54
apartment store in our new downtown at what used to be fashion square, you know what I mean?
00:30:58
So I think in general, allowing that in some way, I think Commissioner Murray might be even more flexible on this than me, but I do think there's a room for a good deal of flexibility.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:31:13
Well, you know, I mean, I back when I worked in Charlottesville, I worked in the old Sears building.
00:31:19
So, I mean, you know, if you look at downtown Charlottesville, you see this mosaic of, you know, older and new buildings together.
00:31:25
And I really don't have a problem with that.
00:31:28
I think that's actually what makes most, you know, livable cities interesting.
00:31:35
So, I mean, now in terms of the question three,
00:31:40
I would gear towards the recommended option.
00:31:43
I think there may be some things that need to be adjusted around the building to make that building work.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:31:53
I would want to make sure that we don't treat all existing buildings the same because they're not.
00:31:58
They're not all created equal.
00:31:59
Some probably aren't worth saving, right?
00:32:02
Some are.
00:32:03
And so I'd kind of like the safety valve that you have in there right now to do that.
00:32:08
So I think for question two and three, if you go back to question two, I think agent approvals are feasible.
00:32:14
I'm supportive of that one because it gives you a checkpoint to evaluate.
00:32:20
Sometimes you don't know what you're missing, right?
00:32:22
If you keep that, somebody could come back with a better, more efficient building, right?
00:32:26
That's newer, right?
00:32:28
And so, though I do agree with you, there's lots of times where it does make sense from a carbon perspective to keep an existing building.
00:32:34
You drive around town, not all buildings are created equal, right?
00:32:37
So I do like the fact that you have the safety valve, so.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:32:45
Commissioner King, anything further to add?
00:32:49
We don't have to.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:32:51
No, I don't think I do.
00:32:53
I mean, I'm thinking it through.
00:32:55
Not at this time.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:33:03
I agree with Commissioner Clayborne.
00:33:05
I think having some flexibility is helpful here as well.
00:33:08
And, you know, there are some buildings
00:33:12
We should encourage adaptive reuse of existing facilities, right?
00:33:16
So if we can reuse something, but a lot of times the land is worth a lot more than the building that's sitting on it.
00:33:26
And it's, you know, they're going to tear it down and build something bigger, so.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:33:31
So thank you all.
00:33:31
I think that was good advice that you provided, at least validation.
00:33:36
Again, we spent a lot of time talking with the development community about the ordinance that was written
00:33:41
Ordinance that we thought we might be able to create.
00:33:44
And so this flexibility, I just want to reiterate this, the flexibility and sort of allowing us to sort of work with some of these properties, you know, and you may end up not getting the form that we're advertising, at least immediately.
00:33:56
It may take time to work its way in.
00:33:57
So thank you all.
00:33:58
I think that was good, good validation.
00:34:00
I appreciate it.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:34:05
Are we ready to move on to the next set?
00:34:07
Okay, good.
00:34:08
Just wanted to make sure.
00:34:11
Okay, in our second set of questions, question four is about changes made to proposed street types and associated regulations.
00:34:17
Working with the code, staff found that the current standards are inconsistent with the transportation planning recommendations and the changes to the core area.
00:34:25
So we're recommending reducing the number of street types, combining streets that are similar in nature and introducing a special street type, destination streets.
00:34:34
So the regulations have also been aligned with the transportation planning recommendations.
00:34:40
And I have copies of each one of the street types available if you'd like them for reference.
00:34:46
Just to explain these slides, each street type table includes an intent statement,
00:34:51
Illustrative cross-section, a list of required street features such as landscaping strips, sidewalks for shared use paths, et cetera, and their associated minimum design standards.
00:35:04
So I'd be happy to explain the symbology in the cross-sections if that's helpful.
00:35:09
But for now, I will just move past these on our way to question seven.
00:35:14
But they are here if we want to go back to them.
00:35:17
Oh, I'm sorry, question five, getting ahead of myself.
00:35:20
Question five is related to the design of the destination street type specifically.
00:35:29
So the problem that we were having was having a regulatory mechanism to facilitate the development of the commercial centers while also being flexible to the market.
00:35:40
So in the solution area of the slide, I've provided the requirements associated with destination streets as well as the special exceptions to those standards.
00:35:54
So you're able to look at both at the same time.
00:35:59
And then the problem in question six was that the current RIA 29 form-based code is quiet on the maintenance responsibility of streetscape features.
00:36:08
So in this table that was provided in the staff report, the revised, we're using that same table and
00:36:17
The recommendation is that VDOT maintains the roadway and streetwalk area when possible, but where VDOT is not able to provide maintenance of the sidewalk area, maintenance would be assumed by the applicant.
00:36:32
And option D is where the applicant would assume maintenance of the road and the sidewalk area.
00:36:40
So this is essentially a private street.
00:36:43
and that option is available at the request of the developer but it has some pros and cons to it.
00:36:49
One of the pros is that they were able to locate utilities within the right-of-way so they don't have to kind of jockey how that fits onto their site so they're able to use more of the of the space and area.
00:37:04
So I'll pause here on questions related to the streets.
00:37:08
Happy to go back to any individual slides.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:37:10
and I apologize for some of the commissioners who weren't here at last meeting.
00:37:14
We spent a lot of time talking about this whole issue of the destination streets and so we need to go back and revisit that a little bit.
00:37:21
We can hopefully you were able to either catch up by reading the previous report or we can just go right into the discussion about their value.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:37:31
Yeah, I was just going to ask you this because we did spend a lot of time on on form in particular and so I just it seems like it's
00:37:40
Is that a recap versus, or is there something specific that is additional?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:37:45
I'm sensitive to the amount of time that we have.
00:37:47
I mean, I think what we really were trying to do, again, the last one, we were talking about the big issues.
00:37:51
This one, we're like getting down to the weeds.
00:37:52
So if somebody's got a problem with some dimension on a street section or something like that, this is our opportunity to sort of talk about that down at that level of weeds.
00:38:01
For those of you all who weren't here, remember one of the big things was previous code put it to the intersection, or I sort of said it at the beginning,
00:38:08
with the focal point at the intersection of Rio and 29, tried to build a district around it.
00:38:15
That had problems from a market acceptance standpoint of that being the location.
00:38:19
But the other point was you had this big 109 acres that was all had to be commercial or set up so the ground floor could be commercial.
00:38:27
We felt that was a
00:38:28
Overly ambitious for our market and also meant that every street that would show up in it would be commercial.
00:38:34
It would sort of dilute the things, what we've called this idea of destination streets, which will happen in each of these cores.
00:38:40
We say, look, 1,200 lineal feet, that corresponds to Bond Street down at Shops Stonefield.
00:38:49
What we've allowed people to do is come in and sort of, you know, hey, maybe I can't get 1200 lineal feet on this site and come in through waivers to like reduce that length and to maybe meet what the market acceptance is.
00:39:01
We may be able to create another Shops and Stonefield up here, maybe two, but maybe we're not be able to do three in the core areas we are.
00:39:08
So this is a way of focusing that commercial activity, the sort of sense of place along a single street and focal point that within the core area.
00:39:19
Quick summation.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:39:23
You have brought up a particular point last time when we were talking about these street trees or street designations.
00:39:31
And I think you were talking about the sectional quality of the street, if I recall.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:39:38
I believe what I was talking about, and I think Karen talked about this a little bit too, is we're talking about, you know, if you look at downtown Crozet, where we have effectively a green street, right?
00:39:49
We have a street that's integrated stormwater features.
00:39:53
It might be helpful to have a design concept for a green street as a separate street type.
00:40:01
If we wanted to come back later and provide incentives, maybe that would be something we could say, come back and say, well, we have this definition of something, and now we can incentivize that thing that we defined.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:40:23
Can you go back to the questions, Mariah?
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:40:25
Yes.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:40:38
The maintenance one is, can you go through that chart where you're showing the, so is A an option?
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:40:45
A is the baseline option written into the code.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:40:47
Is VDOT going to take care of the
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:40:51
We've got a little bit of work to do to get VDOT to readily accept this.
00:40:58
Because everybody would go for A. I mean, it's a question both on the roadway area design, quite frankly.
00:41:09
We're working, VDOT does have access in the road design standards manual to a more urban district if you go through a multimodal plan.
00:41:17
You know, that's one of the things we're trying to do with
00:41:21
with Tanya Schwarzenegger's group.
00:41:23
The sidewalk area and the maintenance that's behind it, they will maintain parts of it.
00:41:28
And so far, it's been kind of a, it's been an interesting dance with them on individual projects.
00:41:34
Sometimes they'll take the sidewalk, sometimes they'll take sidewalk and some few things, but they won't take the street trees.
00:41:39
So our hope is to kind of continue to work with VDOT to try and get them to take as much as they possibly can.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:41:49
You know, this is obviously a smaller scale, but it brings to mind the San Antonio Riverwalk for those who have been there.
00:41:58
So the developer, if you're building on the Riverwalk,
00:42:04
You have a responsibility to add amenities to that riverwalk.
00:42:10
And they do that.
00:42:11
But then there's a shared maintenance of that.
00:42:14
So the owners of that parcel have to maintain it and make sure it's clean.
00:42:20
cleared.
00:42:21
However, the city actually waters plants and does a lot of maintenance for them because they're getting a lot of revenue, obviously, from the Riverwalk.
00:42:30
So that may be an interesting way of thinking.
00:42:33
Is there some kind of cost sharing in the maintenance, particularly for some things like these green streets that Commissioner Firehock brought up last time and Commissioner Murray, that if you do have a green street with some additional amenities and stormwater,
00:42:49
Is there some cost sharing that they can go into there?
00:42:54
So it's not 100% on the applicant.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:42:56
Yeah, we've discussed this at length, and that's the reason we thought it was important to put all these options up, knowing that this kind of debate would come up.
00:43:05
The reason you don't see the B option there as one of the ones that we are
00:43:13
writing into the ordinance goes back to a frank capacity of county to be able to provide that level of service.
00:43:22
And so that wasn't advanced as an option in the ordinance.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:43:28
I'm curious, how was Stonefield, like if we put Stonefield there, which one is that?
00:43:33
Because it's going to go up in parity?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:43:35
They're in D. They're in D. Yeah, they're private streets.
00:43:38
I just went through the rezoning.
00:43:41
There was the intent to make, I think, District Avenue at least a public street.
00:43:44
But at the end of the day, after we went through the site plan process, they ended up all being privately maintained.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:43:50
So Bond is a private street, I didn't realize that.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:43:53
And that was one that VDOT would have had a hard time
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:43:56
I was just looking for my own education because I know sometimes it's talked about how the urban area of Albemarle is a little bit unique in the fact that VDOT maintains it whereas the city limits, the city maintains the city so like what other major
00:44:21
Big counties in Virginia, does VDOT maintain urban areas like that, right?
00:44:25
Because part of the concern becomes just like everyone's ability to keep up with it for different things.
00:44:32
Certainly if it's the applicant and therefore the owner
00:44:36
There's going to be some type of private road maintenance agreement between all the parcels that front the street, and then they'll have to have some type of shared shared maintenance plan.
00:44:48
So as a county, do we want the, you know, who do we want to have the responsibility of that going forward, the private owner us and
00:45:03
So it's interesting because there are some big ones.
00:45:05
Loudon, Chesterfield, Henrico, those all certainly have some areas that are urban that are maintained by VDOT.
00:45:14
Not within a city or town limit.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:45:18
When we were looking at different ways to address this issue, we contacted James City County, Chesterfield, Henrico, and a couple of others and just the ones that had kind of the urban street sections that we were looking at or that were similar to what we were proposing.
00:45:43
and all of them struggled in the maintenance agreement.
00:45:48
And what we found was that they worked with VDOT on what VDOT would accept and otherwise they produced maintenance agreements with the owner and developer.
00:45:59
And so that is a regular course of action, at least with working with VDOT here.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:46:09
Yeah, that's the part of this that has been, question four and five, I think are fine.
00:46:15
The proposed street types and the destination street concept, I wasn't here in early January, but I read closely and those both seem fine.
00:46:24
The maintenance part is definitely kind of tricky to me because I keep coming back to the notion that public goods should be publicly supported.
00:46:31
and so if we're putting in these lovely streetscape features and benches and little pocket green spaces and all that or flower beds or whatever to then expect the developer to sort of maintain those forever feels like privatizing public goods and putting that onto the private onus as well.
00:46:51
I don't like that.
00:46:52
I realize realistically we may not have the tax revenue without some increases at some point to have a public works department.
00:46:59
Right now we've got, I think, Sweeping Beauty, the street sweeper, and that's about it.
00:47:04
But if there can be as an option at some point, I think, you know, recognizing that this part of the county is quite urban and will become more so over time and as an urbanizing place, urban place, we should
00:47:20
act like a city in some ways.
00:47:23
And, you know, the city maintains its lovely trees and flowerbeds and things, at least in the sort of prime come look at us spaces, you know.
00:47:32
And so that part keeps kind of like rubbing at me that B is not really there.
00:47:37
I mean, I think otherwise the solutions are the solutions, you know.
00:47:43
Stonefield is an interesting one.
00:47:44
You made the example there and how those are actually private streets in most cases.
00:47:51
And that green area is actually like private land that I mean, yeah, they open it up sort of at a good heart for farmers markets and things, but it's not actually public space.
00:48:02
And so I think that keeps bothering me, that we sort of privatize what really ought to be public goods.
00:48:10
And so I think in as much as we can get to the point where B is a viable option, you know, A, not working, that B is a viable option, I would like us to try and do that.
00:48:21
Otherwise, you know, I think
00:48:23
or Commissioner Carrazano's point where there's some kind of shared agreement where the county handles X and the applicant handles Y.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:48:37
All right.
00:48:39
Do you have enough on that one?
SPEAKER_26
00:48:44
I had one comment, if I may.
00:48:49
There might be reasons why
00:48:51
There might be reasons why an applicant wants to cover some of the costs.
00:48:56
I don't think any of them want to cover a whole roadway unless they intend to close it for special events.
00:49:05
And so that usually happens when the street is really dominated.
00:49:08
It's more like a shopping center, kind of like Stonefield.
00:49:14
What I've noticed in public spaces, sometimes the applicant, if they're managing this whole entire street or public space as part of their development, then they may want to put the extra money into the flowers and the boxes and the banners and the flags.
00:49:33
because they're trying to create the image of the spirit of the place and sometimes a regular budget that comes from the state or the county is not going to do that.
00:49:43
So even if, I would say, let's make sure we're not disallowing that kind of investment by the local property owners after the fact.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
00:49:56
Yeah, I agree with that.
00:49:57
I think that's the model from the Riverwalk where
00:50:01
They're very unique characteristics as you walk through the riverwalk.
00:50:11
And there's some things that are consistent, but each place has its own feel, and that's up to the developer.
00:50:18
And so they have a stake in maintaining it.
00:50:24
But the city does provide certain services, right?
00:50:27
Whatever that could be for us.
00:50:28
I mean, in that case, there's a lot of watering because there's actually these little barges.
00:50:32
If you get up early in the morning, you go for a walk in the river walk, which my wife and I usually like to do when we go there.
00:50:39
There's these little barges that go around and they have a pump.
00:50:41
They take water from the river and they're watering along the edges to maintain this green strip that they have.
00:50:50
And that's a city function that they do.
00:50:57
And they actually, each person has a section and they take a lot of pride in it.
00:51:03
So there's actually competition on who's maintaining things the best.
00:51:06
And so anyway,
00:51:10
But yeah, so I would agree with that comment that we shouldn't take, we shouldn't take all the responsibilities off of the applicant because they may, they may actually want to develop something unique for their environment.
00:51:22
Respectively.
00:51:27
Okay.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:51:33
I would just say I appreciate the perspective of, you know, the private owner may want to provide enhancements that the county can't fund or, you know, may not be able to maintain.
00:51:48
And I'm wondering what the options are to allow structure for each of these.
00:51:59
So it's mentioned that the current
00:52:03
The current section 20C requires that all streets be public.
00:52:10
And so are we thinking about allowing some of both, I guess is what I'm...
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:52:19
Yes, we have, there's a special, well, I think it's an agent approved modification available if the applicant would rather just take it all on a private street.
00:52:30
And there are a few qualifying criteria for that, so it can't be, well, I'll go to it, actually.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:52:39
Yeah, I think once she's looking for it, the default is to try and make it publicly maintained, but to recognize that there may be certain circumstances either because we're having a hard time getting VDOT taking the maintenance over or because the situation you're, I think, referencing where somebody would want to do the maintenance on it and take it over.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:52:58
So in this table, it's item two, line item two.
00:53:03
So the qualifying criteria would be that the roadway qualifies as, this is a VDOT designation, but it's basically, it's not a high traffic road.
00:53:16
They're not trying to take, or like Preston Avenue.
00:53:21
and make it a private street.
00:53:24
So it's just trying to protect the public street grid and connections to it and acknowledging the function that it serves in carrying traffic throughout the county and regionally.
00:53:36
So in this local, a street that would qualify under this would be a local street that's not serving so much traffic and it's not imperative to connecting the grid and
00:54:02
OK. Should we move on?
00:54:05
Yes.
00:54:06
OK.
00:54:08
So the issue identified for question seven, and we got to this last time, so I thank the commission for bringing this up so that we can discuss it in more depth.
00:54:18
Right now, the green infrastructure is language that's used in the code.
00:54:23
It's required in the code, but the requirements lack a definition or design standard.
00:54:27
So we have no way of enforcing any regulations around quality.
00:54:31
and due to a combination of challenges creating a definition and standards and while also keeping in mind that we don't want to make the form-based code more burdensome than other zoning districts, we proposed revisions that focus on the integration of recommendations that support the county's climate action plan, just making it more broad.
00:54:56
And so this is a copy of the list that was provided in the staff report, if there's any that we want to refer to in the discussion.
00:55:06
And then in question eight, the challenge was, or I guess proposed changes here respond to requests from developers to provide more flexibility to accommodate site specific designs and constraints.
00:55:23
So currently the code allows for only a handful of board approved
00:55:27
Special exceptions and changes to the code propose a combination.
00:55:31
There would still be board approved special exceptions for things that really require more direction from the board to establish clear approval criteria and direction.
00:55:45
And then also in combination with it, agent approved modifications.
00:55:50
And those would be paired with the criteria that we saw before on the table.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:55:58
The clarifying question first is that, so the old, the current code has green infrastructure as a requirement.
00:56:07
This list on page 10 of our packet, which is the same list as I think what you had on a few slides, would those then be targeted recommendations or requirements?
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
00:56:20
No, so the list is kind of a summary, a generalized summary of how the proposed revisions encourage development or have regulations.
00:56:33
And I would say, well, regulations can be in the positive and negative, right?
00:56:37
They can be something that you must do this or you can't do this.
00:56:41
So one of the examples I think was about single family detached development.
00:56:49
It's not being the appropriate place for it because we're just trying to be more dense.
00:56:55
So it's kind of a combination, but I would view that list as a generalization and not necessarily specific regulations that you'll see reflected in the code.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:57:06
OK. Yeah, I was looking at Section 20C.7, Recreation Spaces, or 20C.9, Parking, 20C.11, Landscaping and Lighting.
00:57:16
There's a lot of sort of things in those.
00:57:20
And I'm not saying they're bad ideas.
00:57:23
Having more green space and good natural areas and all that would be lovely.
00:57:28
I'm just wondering if the purpose of this whole revision is to add flexibility and get
00:57:35
you know, property owners to opt into this.
00:57:39
Are those then requirements or are those things that we can kind of like, again, use some carrots to help them go for?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:57:46
Well, I think in some respects they're requirements.
00:57:48
I mean, it's built form.
00:57:49
So we're trying to get some money to the extent possible to build this form.
00:57:52
So there are a fair amount of requirements, including how you should organize your recreation spaces.
00:57:57
So there's some stick there too.
00:58:02
but I think what was partially responding to a lot of discussion that came up at our last work session with you all was like what how is the code green and so we tried to like list and we talked with Jamie about this we sort of like try to list things that
00:58:20
Sure.
00:58:21
Well, just go ahead.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:58:45
Yeah, so some things in here.
00:58:46
I mean, first of all, I mean, I do appreciate, you know, the second term of parking and try to, you know, and limiting surface parking.
00:58:54
As a suggestion, you know, if we're talking about sustainability, I think it'd be almost better to limit overall impervious surface as opposed to just parking.
00:59:06
So if they want extra parking, but they want to put a green roof on their building, maybe that's fine.
00:59:12
But the overall thing is the limitation of impervious surface wherever that impervious surface is.
00:59:20
The other thing, too, is I'll bring up my pet peeve about curb cuts.
00:59:26
Given all the other requirements that we have, I really don't see how we can't just change that to require.
00:59:32
because I think, you know, among people who do landscaping, there's a name for those little parking islands.
00:59:40
They're called hell strips because almost nothing, that's really what they call them, because almost nothing will grow there.
00:59:47
So particularly, I mean, I could see exceptions for, you know, I'm just gonna call them health strips that are that are smaller, certain size that but I mean, if they're over a certain size, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't require them to allow water to flow into those places.
01:00:04
It seems like a
01:00:06
Pretty sensible thing to do.
01:00:07
They're probably one of the worst elements of urban design I've ever seen.
01:00:11
They're almost designed to mean like you're keeping water out of a space that you're going to have to come back and you want to plant things in and you're going to come back and water later.
01:00:18
It's crazy.
01:00:20
But I mean, one suggestion, though, is that maybe it would be nice to have, even if we can't do that, and no, we don't want to be very restrictive, have a menu of LID options.
01:00:34
Say, we would like you to choose at least one of these LID elements.
01:00:39
Just so that we're encouraging people to push the boundaries a little bit and incorporate more sensible stormwater management in their development.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:00:54
Could you go, is it 20C.10, is that your next slide?
01:01:00
Oh, I skipped 10, it went to 11.
01:01:01
On 10, I think that's around buildings, and I was curious, you know, as you all are, I guess as we continue to refine this, what I was looking for were, you know, is there an opportunity to strengthen sustainability, whether it's
01:01:16
encouraging solar orientation, right, or shading or materiality and sustainability, energy performance, like any of those things to help strengthen what we're trying to do with the climate action plan.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
01:01:31
Yeah, it is an option.
01:01:32
And I think we we had some of those discussions.
01:01:36
There were some challenges in it just in
01:01:40
trying to find a it's such a good suggestion but the research that would be required to do it we struggled with do we have the time to do the research while also recognizing that we have some developments that want to come in so I think I think there's just maybe we need to really look back at that and see if we can tackle
01:02:01
can tackle some of these things that we thought were bigger and maybe we can make some targeted changes.
01:02:08
If you're talking about materiality and shading and how to put on solar panels, all of those require design requirements and minimum standards.
01:02:19
So how do we start to frame those standards in order to regulate them?
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:02:25
Yeah, if you want, I'm happy to connect you with my team at the American Institute of Architects.
01:02:30
The climate action is under our portfolio and so I'm happy to connect you with them to have a conversation and maybe they can help facilitate some of that thinking.
01:02:38
So just reach out to me offline and I'll take care of it.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:02:41
Or even resources that they can get to, whether it's LEED or Green Building standards or...
01:02:46
Absolutely.
01:02:49
Commissioner King.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:02:56
I'm just taking notes.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
01:02:59
Are you waiting on me?
01:03:00
Nope.
01:03:00
Okay.
01:03:01
Nope.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:03:08
In general, I don't have very many comments about the list.
01:03:13
I think it's suitable.
01:03:15
One of my thoughts with respect to the
01:03:25
types of recreation spaces and as it relates to the 20, 15 and 10% requirement that we had in the edge flex and others and more dense areas.
01:03:41
It mentions a chart and maybe I was just about to find it, but
01:03:51
where it consolidates the information related to.
01:04:01
Sorry, following me.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
01:04:02
Yes, I think you're in section seven, but.
01:04:10
So.
01:04:12
Where is my cursor?
01:04:14
OK.
01:04:17
So we were talking about these tables that consult.
01:04:22
Is this what you were referring to?
01:04:23
Thank you.
01:04:24
OK.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:04:29
I'm just still interested in that information, I think, because
01:04:34
It seems like if they're less than, if they're 70% of the parcels in the edge space are, or 72% are less than an acre and, you know, still requiring that sort of 15%.
01:04:46
In my brain, I'm just trying to, you know, visualize what does that recreation space look like on a
01:04:53
less than an acre parcel, you know?
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
01:04:56
Sure.
01:04:56
The smallest size is, oh, I didn't realize that this is really not visible on the screen.
01:05:02
Sorry.
01:05:03
I can see it pretty well.
01:05:05
It's, so the smallest space is a 20 foot, 20 foot by 20 foot.
01:05:09
That's, it's pretty, that's an easy low bar to achieve even on some of the smaller sites.
01:05:17
Okay.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:05:18
Does that answer the question you're asking directly, though?
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:05:20
Yeah, but I mean, it's like a couple trees and a bench or, I mean, what is it?
01:05:25
You know, recreation space is a very wrong term.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
01:05:28
Yeah, recreation space is a, yeah, and it was kind of meant to be because recreation space can be anything from a public green to maybe it is just a quiet, more contemplative space that's a tree in a seat.
01:05:41
and something to look at or a couple chairs and tables.
01:05:45
This also captures indoor recreation spaces.
01:05:48
So, you know, kind of trying to find a term that encapsulates that the aspect of this is a place for active or passive recreation that is indoor or outdoor.
01:06:01
That's just the term that we settled on.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:06:03
And moreover, we would call, we talked about this the last work session, this idea of trying to structure the green space and open space stuff so that there's really three tiers.
01:06:13
So these smaller parcels that we're talking about, probably a developer may find it better just to opt out of providing the green space, provide cash in lieu, which would then go to a larger area where we would try and outfit that for more of a
01:06:29
I call it a regional park, but something that serves a larger area.
01:06:33
So the developer really has both options to pursue.
01:06:37
And so if you're in one of these situations, you're like, this maybe doesn't make sense.
01:06:42
Then they have that opportunity to opt out.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:06:44
To opt out of that.
01:06:45
That helps answer my question.
01:06:46
Because what I'm looking at is the
01:06:50
point seven, where it talks about the recreation spaces and allowing onsite stormwater treatment systems in those spaces, you know, so just trying to sort of visualize what a real world example of that looks like.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:07:04
So there's an example at Crozet Elementary School, there's a little garden that the the school uses, but it's also a biofilter.
01:07:12
So I mean, there's there's examples around the community of things that both like biofilters and also recreation spaces.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:07:18
Yeah, and I'm, in general, familiar with biofilters and, you know, how they work and what they are.
01:07:23
But that's why seeing this chart with the sizes is helpful.
01:07:29
So yeah, I don't have any other specific comments about this particular question.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:07:32
Thank you.
01:07:40
Just a couple things that I heard back on the environmental
01:07:44
section, and I just wanted to underscore them.
01:07:50
So the pervious surface comments that Commissioner Murray made is one, something that I picked up on as well.
01:08:00
You have it under, I think the only section that you bring it up is under recreation.
01:08:06
So you don't talk about building and building form or any other areas.
01:08:10
And really it should be in a holistic approach.
01:08:13
The goal is minimize impervious surfaces, right?
01:08:18
I mean, that's what we're trying to do.
01:08:20
How they do it, we should give them flexibility.
01:08:23
I did want to underscore this.
01:08:24
It's exactly what Commissioner Murray said.
01:08:26
It's like, okay, well, they're giving you a green roof.
01:08:29
Then perhaps they can have, you know, less, you know, some, some, some relief on parking or some other things, uh, if they're applying that, you know, that element and a sustainable element into their, into their building.
01:08:44
So there's a lot of different ways that they could do it potentially and not
01:08:48
Right now, I think the only place that is mentioned is under, I think it's under recreation.
01:08:54
So take a look at that.
01:08:57
And then what I also heard about sustainable building practices, right?
01:09:02
There's a lot of things that we can put in there, even if it's just the making the suggestion or making the
01:09:09
direct implication of what we're trying to achieve here with sustainability, right?
01:09:16
And you can take some of those guiding principles from the LEED standards or green building standards.
01:09:24
And I would take Commissioner Clayborne up on his offer.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
01:09:30
Very generous offer.
01:09:33
No, but I guess with that,
01:09:37
If we are going to, well, is that information that would be best suited for a user guide versus a minimum requirement?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:09:55
There are certainly some that we should be thinking about.
01:09:57
Should be minimum requirements, energy, for instance.
01:10:04
Should we start requiring level of efficiencies in the buildings that we're building?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:10:16
And then the next question is,
01:10:19
is that something that
01:10:37
I'm okay with that, but let's apply it to everybody because I think otherwise we created this incentive for a district.
01:10:41
It's already very tough to pull off.
01:10:43
So I bring that question back to you.
01:10:47
Is this the opportunity or is it better with the zoning ordinance?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:10:52
I think we would all say it's better to treat it holistically.
01:10:57
However, you can also say, well, this is a test case that we've been doing here.
01:11:00
And so do we treat this a little bit differently if it is that test case?
01:11:07
So I think we can make the argument both ways.
01:11:10
Yes, I think we would all agree here.
01:11:12
Sure, make it everybody.
01:11:14
But perhaps you introduce it with a form-based code and see what the development community reaction is to that and what actually is doable.
01:11:28
We see it in our world, we certainly see how these requirements have continued to increase and increase and increase, whether it's at the university level or, but energy sustainability, it's part of the ethos, it's part of how we build.
01:11:45
And even though there are code requirements that also, I mean, they have to meet code, right?
01:11:50
So they have to meet energy code and buildings.
01:11:53
and we should be looking at that and saying, well, can you do 10% better than the energy code, right?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:11:59
And if you do, we'll give you other things to offset it.
01:12:05
Let's think about that a little bit more.
01:12:08
We're going to have a conversation here.
01:12:10
I'm happy to.
01:12:12
Yeah, I'm with Corey and Corey's folks.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:12:15
I'm curious, one, what our consultants have to say on this since they're here.
01:12:21
And then just around code, just remember that is literally the worst building you can build.
01:12:25
If you build it to code, it's literally the worst, right?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:12:28
It's just a different mindset.
01:12:29
You can't build less than that.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:12:30
Yeah, it's literally like the baseline.
01:12:32
You've just stepped over the rope, right?
01:12:34
Just stepped over the line.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:12:38
Yeah, so I guess the question, Joseph, is are you seeing this in other municipalities where they're, in terms of sustainability and certain approaches that they're including in their form-based code that might be separate from other requirements?
SPEAKER_26
01:13:01
Yes, I would say probably we see it more often as an incentive.
01:13:06
And, you know, the development community sees it as a marketing opportunity for the folks are trying to attract as tenants or residents.
01:13:17
So I think it's been kind of used as a win-win situation.
01:13:24
I don't know how the development community in Charlottesville or Central Virginia reacts to that.
01:13:29
Is that something that's attractive to them?
01:13:32
But I'm with Michael that I'm also nervous about adding too much.
01:13:40
I mean, we're already asking a lot from at least when you kind of look around 180 degrees.
01:13:45
at the intersection of Rio and 29.
01:13:48
And so I would be worried about loading it up too much, but I'm certainly a proponent of making buildings more sustainable and LEED certified and making the whole community, the whole neighborhood function in that way.
01:14:07
So I think it's just a matter of
01:14:13
For me, it would be like, okay, what does the community, what does the development community say about that?
01:14:22
Because in case it could be like a win-win or they're happy to do it, or it could be seen as onerous and another reason why they might not want to follow the code.
SPEAKER_32
01:14:36
add to that by only agreeing that, yeah, I think we, as we went through this, we had a lot of discussions about the balance here.
01:14:46
I think, as was said a few minutes ago, the worst building is the one that's built to the minimum code.
01:14:53
We tried to keep in mind throughout this, I certainly did, that this is an optional district.
01:14:59
And therefore, the more we load it up, we may lose people to throwing up their hands and saying, well, I'll just build to the underlying zoning, which is in many ways the minimum code.
01:15:14
So I think it would be great if we could find a good way to incentivize green infrastructure without forcing it too much.
01:15:23
Just my thought.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:15:27
Thank you.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
01:15:32
I'm going to go back to the presentation and go to our last question.
01:15:43
And we can come back to the other questions should there be a desire to.
01:15:52
So question eight, this is our last question.
01:15:55
Proposed changes respond to requests from developers.
01:15:59
Have we done this?
01:16:01
Maybe not.
01:16:02
Okay, I'm sorry.
01:16:03
I'm getting lost and every slide looks very similar, doesn't it?
01:16:09
Developers requested more flexibility with the code.
01:16:11
And I think we've all acknowledged, or at least in this meeting, there's been some acknowledgement that flexibility is a benefit and advantageous to incentivizing development underneath this code.
01:16:23
So currently the code allows for a handful of board approved special exceptions.
01:16:28
There's about six.
01:16:31
We're proposing 10.
01:16:32
and then with the agent approved modifications, it's kind of lost in a lot of the very long code.
01:16:43
I'll acknowledge that, but we are proposing 25 each with criteria.
01:16:50
So I have copies of or I copied all of the modifications and waivers as well as the board approved special exceptions.
01:16:58
If there's any ones that we want to discuss in particular,
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:17:05
Commissioner King, you want to start on your end this time?
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:17:10
So the current, on your graph there, the current option is only with board approval.
01:17:18
Correct.
01:17:19
Okay.
01:17:20
I mean, in general, I don't have specific questions about the 25 different ones at the moment, but in general, I am in favor of the recommended approach of allowing some special exceptions that can be agent approved.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:17:44
Sorry, I support what you have.
01:17:50
None of these flagged as ones that definitely need to stay board approved only.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:17:58
Yeah, I agree.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:18:01
I think you have, you have unanimity in that one.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:18:06
We try to work hard, you know, to, it's really hard to write regulations that sort of capture every situation, especially in an optional district, especially in something where you're redeveloping into a
01:18:18
much more expensive form of development.
01:18:20
There's a lot of risk here for developers.
01:18:23
So the intent here is to try and like
01:18:26
get the best thing.
01:18:27
It's just a reoccurring theme.
01:18:28
You're going to hear that from us.
01:18:30
So we spent a lot of time with this ordinance, and I really want to thank Dover Coal and EPR.
01:18:34
I think they've done a really good job supporting staff.
01:18:37
I also really want to thank Mariah, who's really been at the heart of this effort, working with Leah and Margaret Malyshevsky and Bill Fritz to really pull together, which I think is hopefully going to be a more pragmatic one that responds a lot more to the concerns we heard from our local developers and
01:18:54
legal beagles that are in our community.
01:18:58
So I think this is a good ordinance and it sounds like I'm glad that we brought a lot of stuff to you all tonight.
01:19:03
I didn't hear, don't do this.
01:19:06
I hear a lot of trying.
01:19:07
Can we push the envelope to get a little bit more of what we want?
01:19:11
We'll go back and look at that.
01:19:13
But I think the general sense I'm getting from the planning commission, these two work sessions, and we try to take our time to get into the depth of these things is that if we're heading the right direction,
01:19:23
Great, so we'll polish the ordinance up a little bit more and then I think we'll bring it back.
01:19:29
Not hearing a lot of changes, we'll bring it back as a public hearing item to you all.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:19:36
Yeah, and we do want to thank you.
01:19:37
I mean, I know it's been a long time in the making, multiple years.
01:19:40
I know, Mariah, we've been on some Zoom calls together talking about this.
01:19:45
And so there's been a lot of effort, and I do want to thank your staff, Michael, and consultants that have been involved.
01:19:50
So appreciate everyone's work on this.
01:19:53
And I think the theme of the night was flexibility, and I think you have
01:19:59
added flexibility to this process, which is needed.
01:20:02
And when we, when you say, you know, that you've heard that there are some other things that maybe we want to get and try to put it in there.
01:20:11
But it's through incentives.
01:20:13
I think if we, and this is where the county needs to have a conversation, right, internally.
01:20:17
If we really want these things, how do we begin to incentivize them so that we partner with the development community?
01:20:24
And we don't use the stake, but we use the carrot, as Commissioner Moore said earlier.
01:20:29
So again, just thank you to everyone.
01:20:35
I know that there's been a lot of effort put into this, so we appreciate it.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:38
Well done.
01:20:39
I echo that as well.
01:20:40
This was very complex and I can see the effort and care that went into this and the presentation is very clear and well thought out.
01:20:47
Thank you all for your work.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:49
Agree and I also appreciate how quickly you incorporated all of the changes from AC44.
01:20:55
You know, I mean that was timely.
01:20:57
So that's getting, you can see several places where that's getting added as well.
01:21:01
So thank you.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:21:03
Hopefully, thank you very much.
01:21:05
Hopefully we may even see this thing being able to apply to other activity centers beyond this one.
01:21:12
So we've had that in mind when we wrote this as well.
Mariah Gleason
Urban Designer
01:21:17
All right.
01:21:18
Okay.
01:21:19
Well, thank you all.
01:21:20
And thank you also to staff who have been incredible in supporting this effort.
01:21:24
Jenny, Leah, Jamie, Margaret, who is sick.
01:21:29
Kevin, I mean, there are so many.
01:21:30
So it really was a team effort.
01:21:32
And thank you.
01:21:33
Thank you for your comments tonight or today.
01:21:35
Thank you for them today.
01:21:38
And are there any last questions?
01:21:40
I know we have about five minutes to spare, but are there any last questions or
01:21:47
Discussion items?
01:21:48
No?
01:21:50
Okay.
01:21:50
Well, thank you so much.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:21:54
Thank you.
01:21:55
And that will put us in recess.
01:21:58
We will reconvene at 6 p.m. We are now live.
01:22:08
We are reconvening the February 10th Albemarle County Planning Commission.
01:22:18
If anybody from the public would like to speak to matters that are not in the agenda, please come forward at this time.
01:22:28
All right.
01:22:30
Seeing none, moving on to the consent agenda.
01:22:37
Oh, but I do need to acknowledge that Ms. Karen Firehock has now joined
01:22:48
the committee know where we can be.
01:22:55
Is there anyone in the Commission that would like to pull item from the consent agenda?
01:23:02
If no, do I have a motion?
01:23:06
So moved.
01:23:08
Do I have a second?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:23:10
Second.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:23:12
Hispanic Clerk?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:23:14
So moved.
01:23:15
Mr. Moore?
01:23:16
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:23:17
Ms. Firehock?
01:23:22
Aye.
01:23:23
Ms. King?
01:23:25
Aye.
01:23:26
Mr. Carrazana?
01:23:27
Aye.
01:23:27
Mr. Clayborne?
01:23:29
Aye.
01:23:29
Mr. Murray?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:23:30
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:23:30
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:23:31
And we're moving to the public hearing for CMA
01:23:41
2025-00007 Wendy Knowles, and it's two separate items for sidewalk and planting waivers.
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
01:23:55
Thank you.
01:23:55
Good evening.
01:23:56
My name is Sid Schiff.
01:23:57
I'm a senior planner with the county's planning division.
01:24:00
Before you this evening is ZMA 2025-7 and sub 2025-239 Wendy Knoll.
01:24:08
ZMA 2025-7 is a rezoning application for R1 residential to R6 residential and sub 2025-239 is a sidewalk and planting strip waiver for a private street.
01:24:23
The subject properties are located within Crozet's development area.
01:24:27
They are located north of Route 250, west of the Liberty Hall subdivision, and east of Corey Farm Road.
01:24:35
The subject property consists of three parcels that are approximately one acre each for a total of 3.15 acres.
01:24:42
One parcel is addressed at 325 Windy Knoll Lane and has an existing single family residence.
01:24:48
Another recently had their single family residence removed, and the other is undeveloped.
01:24:53
Two of the parcels received their access from Windy Knoll Lane, which is a 20-foot private access easement.
01:24:58
Windy Knoll Lane also serves a single-family residence at 330 Windy Knoll Lane, which is not part of this proposal.
01:25:04
They're the site that's within the sea.
01:25:08
Another parcel has a driveway from Colony Drive, which is not in use, and the other parcel in the north does not have an existing driveway, but has frontage along Corey Farm Road.
01:25:17
The site itself is hilly and sits on a knoll, hence why it's referred to as Windy Knoll.
01:25:24
The subject property is zoned R1 residential, and one of the parcels is within the entrance corridor and is impacted by a small portion of the steep slopes managed overlay district.
01:25:33
The parcel to the east within the C-shape is also zoned R1 residential.
01:25:38
The parcels to the north, south, and west are all zoned R4 residential and contain one single family dwelling unit.
01:25:45
The parcels to the east are zoned neighborhood model development, or NMD, and contain a mix of housing types within the Liberty Hall subdivision.
01:25:53
The subject property is also approximately 550 feet from the Blue Ridge Shopping Center, which is zoned Highway Commercial, and approximately 600 feet from Clover Lawn Shopping Center, which is a planned development mixed commercial.
01:26:07
Although AC44 was adopted and took effect on January 1st, this proposal was reviewed for consistency under the 2015 Comprehensive Plan and Master Plan in effect at the time this application was submitted.
01:26:18
The primary designation is neighborhood density residential, which allows for a density between three to six dwelling units per acre.
01:26:25
And the secondary designation is for green systems.
01:26:29
The site is also within proximity of a village center marked as V in the image.
01:26:33
This includes the Blue Ridge shopping center and Clover Lawn shopping center areas.
01:26:38
For informational purposes only, AC44 continues to recommend neighborhood density for the site.
01:26:45
So there are two applications related to this development that the PC is required to take action on.
01:26:51
The first one is the main rezoning to rezone three parcels from R1 residential to R6 residential to construct a maximum of 18 residential units for a gross residential density of six dwelling units per acre.
01:27:03
The second application is a request to waive the sidewalk and planking strip requirements for a private street under section 14-422E.
01:27:11
This application only requires PC action and will not be acted upon by the board should this application move forward.
01:27:20
This is the main application for ZMA 2025-7, which is proposing to rezone the parcel from R1 to R6 to construct up to 18 dwelling units for six dwelling units per acre.
01:27:30
The applicant will provide further details during their presentation, but a high level of the application proposes two building envelopes.
01:27:38
The first is the southern envelope, which would include four single-family residences, and the northern envelope would include 14 multi-family or townhouse units.
01:27:46
There are three vehicular access points for the site.
01:27:49
The first is utilizing the existing Windy Knoll Lane to continue serving two properties within the development and the single-family residence at 330 Windy Knoll Lane.
01:27:59
The second is a new 10-foot private driveway from Colony Drive to serve two single-family dwelling units.
01:28:04
And then third, a new 20-foot private street from Corey Farm Road to serve the northern building envelope.
01:28:10
Please note that this private street does not require PC authorization since it is for attached units.
01:28:15
Also, this is the private street associated with the sidewalk and planting strip waiver, which I'll go over during a later slide.
01:28:22
Third, there's a reservation for a permanent slope and drainage easement along Corey Farm Road.
01:28:26
This is area for a county project to make improvements to Corey Farm Road for Eastern Avenue.
01:28:32
And then lastly, there's open space area shown as green and a stormwater management pond and access.
01:28:39
Since the staff report was posted last week, the applicants provided two updates to the proposal.
01:28:44
Both of those documents were emailed to you last night.
01:28:47
The first update is that the applicant revised their proffer related to affordable housing, which is now consistent with the recommendations under Housing Albemarle.
01:28:55
A later proffered summary slide reflects those revisions the applicant made, which were updates to the language related to area median income, or are we referred to as AMI tonight, for rent units and the minimum affordability periods.
01:29:08
The second update is what's shown on the screen for their concept plan.
01:29:12
The applicant is now proposing a mode slash mulch path, and that's a very light green on the screen.
01:29:20
And it's proposing to connect the northern building envelope and the southern envelope to the existing pedestrian facilities within Liberty Hall.
01:29:30
This is a map that provides further context around the existing and future pedestrian network around the subject property.
01:29:36
The site is within the development area and approximately 550 feet to both Clover Lawn and the Blue Ridge Shopping Centers.
01:29:43
Currently, there are existing pedestrian facilities to the east in Liberty Hall and to the south along Route 250.
01:29:49
There is an existing sidewalk on a small portion of Corey Farm Road, which concludes at the intersection with Little Fox Lane.
01:29:55
There is also a future project for a county project for Eastern Avenue which will provide sod walks on both sides of Corey Farm Road.
01:30:03
The county is actively working on this project and there's not a timeline for construction.
01:30:08
This is a conceptual plan for the type of connectivity the county desires to connect this development to existing neighborhoods such as Corey Farm, Liberty Hall, and then the center which includes Clover Lawn and the Blue Ridge Shopping Center to provide a safe and accessible pedestrian network.
01:30:26
The applicants also provided a draft proffer statement with three proffers.
01:30:30
The details are in your packet, but this is them at a high level.
01:30:33
The first is the concept plan to be developed in general accord with the concept plan they provided.
01:30:38
They identified the major elements as the location of building envelopes, the internal roads, and the location of the reservation for a permanent slope and drainage easement for the construction of Eastern Avenue.
01:30:49
The second proffer is the 4,570 square foot reservation for the slope and drainage easement I just mentioned.
01:30:55
And then lastly, the third proffer is related to affordable housing.
01:30:59
The applicant proffers 20% of the units within the site to be affordable.
01:31:03
If the maximum 18 units are developed, then this would include four affordable units.
01:31:07
And then like I mentioned earlier, one of the revisions the applicant made that I sent last night, they updated their proffer to provide language that's consistent with housing Albemarle.
01:31:16
And this includes language for for rental and for sale AMI.
01:31:23
So in some, staff's positive aspects and concerns have changed since the staff report was first complete due to the revised materials provided by the applicant.
01:31:33
Staff still believe that the request is consistent with the land use recommendations of the Crozet master plan, and staff also believe the proposed rezoning meets the strategies of the growth management policy.
01:31:43
to promote density and infill in the development area.
01:31:47
Staff also find that the request is consistent with the recommendations of Housing Albemarle to provide 20% units as affordable, AMI for rent units, and minimum affordability periods.
01:31:57
There are still two concerns, and the first one's related to existing overcapacity issues at Western Albemarle High School.
01:32:04
And the other concern is that the applicant does not provide adequate interconnected streets or bicycle and pedestrian connections.
01:32:11
The proposed mulch-slash-mooth path does not provide a connection to existing, does provide a connection to existing and proposed sidewalks.
01:32:19
However, staff are concerned about the durability of the proposed path, and there's just not enough details at this time.
01:32:25
With that being said, despite the two concerns, staff recommends approval of zoning map amendment request ZMA 2025-7 Windy Knoll, provided they continue to work with staff on revisions to provide necessary interconnections throughout the development prior to the board meeting.
01:32:42
Moving on to the other application for sub 2025-239.
01:32:47
This is a request to waive the sidewalk and planting strip requirements for a private street under 14-422E, and this requires Planning Commission action.
01:32:57
The portion of the sidewalk and planting strip to be waived is highlighted with a red arrow on the screen at the top of the page.
01:33:04
The waiver would be both for sidewalk and planting strip, and it's on the north side of proposed private road A.
01:33:10
Although the applicant provided a revised concept plan that illustrates the mode slash multipath, there is still insufficient amount of information at this time for staff to review the sidewalk waiver request and therefore findings cannot be met.
01:33:23
Staff are concerned the request does not provide adequate connection to an existing or future pedestrian system.
01:33:31
Due to the lack of details, staff recommend denial of both the sidewalk and planting strip requests for sub 2025-239 Windy Knoll.
01:33:39
and I'm happy to answer any questions from the commission.
01:33:41
Thank you.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:33:54
Yeah, this is one that I brought up before at different hearings.
01:33:58
But I just want to ask about how many students do you think, based on the calculations, would be enrolled at Western Albemarle High if this were to be built?
01:34:06
How many additional students?
01:34:07
I think I read three?
01:34:09
Two to three?
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
01:34:15
Yeah, so this information is on page nine of your packet.
01:34:19
For Western Albemarle High School, this data is from the Albemarle County Public Schools Long-Range Planning Advisory Committee report, and they estimate approximately two and a half students, so rounding up three students.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:34:32
Yeah, yeah.
01:34:32
It was one of those bugaboos that I have with these presentations is that we add a few students to schools, and that's listed as a concern that's sort of on the let's not do it side.
01:34:44
when I think we are a growing county and a growing community and it means we're going to grow our number of students and we need to build our school infrastructure to match that.
01:34:53
But I don't, especially with this one where it's literally three students or fewer, I feel like that's a non factor that I don't even know that I would include.
Scott Clark
Conservation Program Manager
01:35:10
Questions?
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:35:13
Could you go back to your revised recommendation again?
01:35:16
Is that the language?
01:35:21
What happens if you all can't come to an agreement on the interconnected design and so forth?
01:35:28
What happens then?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:35:31
We'll end up at the board with stronger denial.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:35:40
So, I mean, I guess this is the applicant too, but what is the nature of the, what's the nature of the objections to providing air connectivity?
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
01:35:54
Can you rephrase that question?
01:35:55
I'm sorry.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:35:56
So, I mean, what are the hurdles here in providing the interconnectivity, you know, between Colony Drive and Corey Farm Road, for example?
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
01:36:05
Yeah, I think the applicant can better speak to that.
01:36:08
But my suspicion is there's this site is if you've been out to the site before, it's a there's a lot of steep grades on the site.
01:36:16
But like I said, the applicant could probably speak more to it.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:36:22
I'm just curious, also the portion, the sort of upper part of the C where it's private road A where they're seeking the waiver.
01:36:29
It's outside the C-shaped parcel, as it were, where some of the road will be improved.
01:36:35
Is that just a sort of an easement now to build that road or is that owned by someone else?
01:36:40
How would that construction take place?
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
01:36:43
Yeah, so here's their proposal.
01:36:45
You can see in that area there's an existing access easement there.
01:36:49
They would need to obtain approval from that easement holder in order to make whatever improvements there.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:36:56
but the rest of the private road connection, it's on public right of way now.
01:37:02
That makes sense.
01:37:03
Okay.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:37:12
Commissioner King.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:37:14
Thank you.
01:37:16
I agree with Commissioner Moore.
01:37:19
I don't think that adding two and a half students to the high school is a concern of mine in this particular application.
01:37:29
I do recognize that some of the feedback we got from the community, which I've certainly heard before, is that
01:37:36
There can be an argument about the calculations for how we get to those numbers and whether they're actually real life numbers or not.
01:37:43
I agree with that sentiment.
01:37:44
I don't think that our calculations are necessarily on point when it comes to student counts.
01:37:48
But I also know that Crozet is in the Western Albemarle School District, and it's one of our development areas.
01:37:57
So we need to continue to develop Crozet, period.
01:38:01
There will be more students added to the high school period.
01:38:04
So I don't think that should be a reason to deny the application.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:38:11
Sid, if you could indulge me for a minute on the question on the extension of the road colonial drive.
01:38:18
So the private drive taking that all the way to Corey Farms.
01:38:27
So you have, is that what the position of the staff is to look for a path for that to happen?
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
01:38:34
for a private drive from Colonial to... Yeah, the county's goal is Colony Drive is a public right of way.
01:38:42
Our comprehensive plan, we want interconnected streets, public interconnected streets.
01:38:46
And so when we were first reviewing this application, one of our comments was requesting Colony Drive to be extended to connect to the road with Corey Farm.
01:38:57
And so the applicant could speak more on what it developed on their end, but that's staff's point of view.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:39:03
I think we acknowledge through the review though that that, I mean, it's a significant amount of drop in grade.
01:39:09
And so I think as we work through the review of the applicant, I think we came to agree that extending Colony Drive over there would be a bit of a challenge to the topography.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:39:22
Yeah, depends on how you.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:39:24
That and also, to be honest, there is the easement for what serves Parcel 330 complicates it even further.
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
01:39:33
Yeah, so there's the existing easement, which is the middle bottom of the screen.
01:39:40
And so the easement holders would have to sign off on it.
01:39:42
And then you can't it's not identified on this screen, but there's a small triangle to the left where my cursor is.
01:39:49
This is owned by the Corey Farm HOA as well.
01:39:53
And so that's another property in between.
01:39:58
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:40:04
Any other questions for staff?
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:40:08
Would there be opportunity to discuss development of this path in the updated application to not be, I think it showed it as sort of a grassy path.
01:40:23
So potentially one option is to increase the design of that to be a shared use path that could accommodate bikes.
01:40:34
That would be one option, right, that would connect the two sides, at least pedestrian-wise.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:40:39
I'd just say that, you know, we worked with the applicant as we were going through the process.
01:40:44
You know, with all rezoning, there's lots of issues you're tracking.
01:40:48
This is one that they didn't respond to, and so we obviously made a recommendation of denial initially.
01:40:56
The fact that they're working in this direction is what we're willing to work with the applicant.
01:41:01
Obviously, making that connection is still very important to us and something that's a durable surface.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
01:41:15
Okay.
01:41:18
We'll invite the applicant for a presentation, please.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:41:27
Good evening members of the commission.
01:41:28
Justin Shimp with Shimp Engineering.
01:41:31
I am joined by Polina Andreeva from my office.
01:41:34
And then Mr. Carrington is also here the property owner this evening.
01:41:39
Get myself situated here.
01:41:44
Thank you for the opportunity to speak.
01:41:45
It's good to be here in front of the Planning Commission this evening.
01:41:48
We have an interesting project.
01:41:50
We do a lot of infill development, but most of them are in Charlottesville City.
01:41:53
And I think what you're going to find is we'll be back here more and more often with projects like this because without expanding the development areas, the remaining land is going to be
01:42:02
Infill projects this nature.
01:42:04
This one is an especially ideal location because of its proximity to the existing center and accessibility by foot or bicycle to commercial uses there that are not always given in development areas, certainly not in the rural areas.
01:42:19
So the location that everyone's gone through and thank you very much, Sid, for your thorough explanation for the thing.
01:42:25
Our fundamental approach here is we're zoning R6.
01:42:29
That is just as shy under six units per acre.
01:42:32
20% of the units do meet the affordable housing policy.
01:42:37
Candidly, there's been some confusion on the development community's part about the relationship between the affordable housing policy and the developer incentive package the board passed.
01:42:47
And that was why our proffer language was incorrect.
01:42:49
And so we worked with the staff and we were quickly able to come up with an appliance.
01:42:52
So I think we do understand it better now.
01:42:54
So we are meeting those requirements in this current proffer statement.
01:42:57
As I noted, this is an infill development, excellent opportunities for folks to get places not in cars.
01:43:04
And I think what you also see when I show you a couple of diagrams here, it adds a little bit of different product mix to an area that's predominantly single family homes.
01:43:11
and yet close to walkable, but primarily a single family home because the pattern of development has occurred over the years.
01:43:20
We are the R1 zoning, probably from the original 1980 zoning map.
01:43:24
You'll see there's been R4 updates.
01:43:26
We have neighborhood model, PDMC, a mix of zoning around all consistent with the comprehensive plan, this area.
01:43:34
This diagram here shows a couple adjacent neighborhoods that are developed in the three to six dwelling units per acre range.
01:43:41
And what you'll see is that at the bottom, the current development in this area is about 119 units on 52.6 acres.
01:43:52
That's the net density.
01:43:53
So we're not talking open space between buffers, we're talking in the yellow.
01:43:57
So you're at 2.26 units per acre.
01:43:59
So we're actually below the three minimum.
01:44:01
If you add our 18 in there, I calculated something like 2.6 units per acre.
01:44:05
So this infill is actually still putting it below the minimum recommendation density, the comprehensive plan, this particular area.
01:44:14
You'll see again, predominantly single family with a small amount of mixed townhomes departments over closer to the center here.
01:44:23
What's around us?
01:44:25
Sparrow Hill, Corey Farms, single-family house types, which we will have four single-family houses added to that within a mixture of units, townhomes, and potentially a type of multi-family product as well.
01:44:40
So here's the concept plan that we submitted.
01:44:43
This is a little, you saw the block planner.
01:44:44
This is the actual concept and it shows basically the existing Windy Knoll Lane, which there's an existing house that remains here.
01:44:50
A house was torn down here and that gets rebuilt.
01:44:55
There's an existing drive that comes from this way and that'll be repurposed to serve two new single families on this side.
01:45:01
And then we have the townhome block over here on the north portion.
01:45:07
We initially had this as open space only here and did not really consider as much of an amenity space and probably I should have thought more about that as we went through this.
01:45:16
But when we were working through this, there was a
01:45:19
The county had got an RFP response from a developer on the Eastern Connector, like, okay, that was back in the fall, so this is moving along.
01:45:27
So we really imagine that is coming through.
01:45:29
So there really needs to be sort of an alternative, like, what if that doesn't happen?
01:45:32
What are we going to do?
01:45:33
And so upon thinking about that and talking with the staff, we revised our application to include this mulch and a grass path.
01:45:43
and perhaps a slight difference of opinion we have in the staff on this is the nature of what that material should be.
01:45:49
I think that if the slopes are flat enough, I prefer grass and mulch through kind of a native meadow area than an asphalt path.
01:45:56
But there is considerations of maintenance, you know, usability and bags and other things like that.
01:46:00
So we understand their concerns.
01:46:02
We're certainly committed to working with them.
01:46:04
and their engineers to figure out something that can be agreeable.
01:46:07
But I think this solution makes a connection that gets folks from the townhome section and the existing single families over to the public road, Colony Drive, which does have sidewalks.
01:46:17
And so you can kick out on both there and get on foot where you really want to go, which is over towards the Harris Teeter, Clover Lawn, Pizza Place, the restaurants there would be the attraction for folks to walk to.
01:46:30
a couple little more things about the interconnectivity that we did not do with the road.
01:46:34
One, Karen Colony drive-through required a significant amount of grading, you know, gridding up the whole area.
01:46:42
And there's a little wedge here, as you can see, where we don't actually have enough property to dedicate the ride away in that corner to go through in that spot.
01:46:53
And we don't actually own the land here.
01:46:56
So there's a few pieces that just added complexity that really
01:47:00
We felt like that did not merit, you know, going through and doing all that work really wasn't possible without adjoining properties approval.
01:47:06
And I feel like in collection that we ended now, if I have a nice mulch path to connect folks from one side or the other, I think that's a good solution for this type of scale development.
01:47:17
The other items in the staff report brought up as a negative were about the schools and affordable housing.
01:47:22
I think you all have asked your questions about that.
01:47:23
I won't make any further comments on those, but we do believe this solution, which you can see an illustration of here, there's a few places at Nelson that take my kids that have similar mowed paths in a meadow or hayfield area that are part of the rockfish trail system, that I think something like that would be a nice asset to this community.
01:47:45
as well.
01:47:46
So that is really what we think is the right solution here.
01:47:48
A few more bits of interest in this.
01:47:51
We have our site location.
01:47:53
You can see the 10-minute walking shed map.
01:47:56
Everything over here is within that zone, so connecting to Colony Drive will facilitate that.
01:48:01
And then I brought this map up just as a study of the Crozet trail system.
01:48:05
There's actually already some grass trails and similar things in Crozet that are developed by HOAs through OpenSpace that are used.
01:48:12
So the idea of a grass or mulch trail is not uncommon, in fact, in Crozet.
01:48:17
It's been used pretty widely.
01:48:18
So we felt like that made sense, this application.
01:48:22
I don't have any other items to
01:48:24
bring up then just repeating that this is an infill project where even with this we are not getting to the three units an acre in that collective area and we are integrating a different housing types different price points that are available there that cannot happen in sort of a buy right development thus we need the zoning change to achieve those so that's all I had to share I'm happy to answer any questions commissioners questions for the public
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:48:51
I could have one about the private road A that would serve the townhouses.
01:49:00
Why is that being approached as a private road rather than turning it over to a VDOT road?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:49:07
For townhomes, it's pretty difficult to meet VDOT standards for these.
01:49:12
That's why the county basically allows private roads for townhomes by right.
01:49:15
because they have, you can't do a T. It has to have a 200-foot radius.
01:49:19
They have grading considerations.
01:49:21
Effectively, meeting their public road criteria is a hugely cross-prohibitive or kind of dense development or a townhome type development.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:49:32
One of the reasons I bring it up is the recent news about the HOA where the bridge collapsed and now the people that live there had no idea that now they're on the hook for a bridge, but I don't see a bridge crossing here.
01:49:42
It's just
01:49:43
sort of asphalt and substrate, right?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:49:46
It's a parking lot, basically.
01:49:47
The folks drive in and park in.
01:49:49
And that's a common, we just completed a study for a developer of the day.
01:49:53
There certainly are requirements now that didn't exist 30 years ago to do a reserve study, so folks are paying into that from the beginning.
01:50:00
I don't know the circumstances of the bridge, but yes, that would be a terrible circumstance to deal with.
01:50:03
There are no bridges here, though.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:50:10
Yes, so one of the concerns that I've heard is if in the part of the property behind the townhomes to sort of the northeast, I guess you'd say there's a steep ravine in that area.
01:50:22
And that there's a there's currently a lot of problems with stormwater in that that area.
01:50:28
And I know that the
01:50:31
The adjoining neighborhood has had some terrible problems of their own, like dealing with expensive stormwater issues.
01:50:38
And I'm just wondering, how do you plan to deal with that particular issue?
01:50:42
And has there been any discussion with the adjoining neighborhood of maybe working together on a solution to deal with that problem?
01:50:49
Because your line kind of goes right down the middle of that ravine.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:50:52
It's the area between Corey Farm Road and the 330 House.
01:50:56
Is that what you're speaking of?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:50:57
Oh, no.
01:50:58
Further, like.
01:51:00
at the top of the top of the sea.
01:51:04
Up here?
01:51:04
Yeah, it's there that going behind those.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:51:08
I see, there's a ravine right here behind.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:51:10
That ravine.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:51:12
I see.
01:51:13
Well, I know that from a stormwater standpoint, we would have to significantly reduce any runoff that goes that direction.
01:51:21
Like all our runoff has to go away from here down to the pond from our site.
01:51:26
We would have to engineer it that way during the construction plans or simply
01:51:30
or establish some kind of stormwater facility in that direction.
01:51:33
We always intended upon taking the water the opposite direction.
01:51:36
So we haven't had any communication about that.
01:51:38
That's something that would come up probably when we submit a VSMP, a stormwater plan, if there's a known issue downstream, we have an outfall.
01:51:47
We're discharging that way.
01:51:49
The county will typically flag that to us and say, hey, you know, you can't do this because of this condition.
01:51:55
So that's not something you can do to a zoning standpoint.
01:51:57
That's the first time I've heard of it.
01:51:59
does come up fairly often on developments, not the stage, but as we do our stormwater plans.
01:52:05
And there's various requirements we have to meet to address that.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:52:08
And so I just wanted to know if you'd heard that concern from the adjoining neighbors, because I know that's something that I've heard repeatedly.
01:52:17
The other thing, too, you talked about a mulch path.
01:52:22
Have you considered just crushed center, crushed gravel?
01:52:25
I mean, it seems to be more
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:52:27
Yeah, crushed gravel would be fine, just more natural than asphalt is my gut feeling.
01:52:33
But there's standards for, you know, the slope of that trail and what kind of surface you need to maintain it.
01:52:38
But a crushed stone would be okay also.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:52:43
So the other thing you're talking about, the wildflower meadow there, some of the images you showed, we do actually have standards locally for wildflower meadows.
01:52:53
Many of them have been installed from the Soil and Water Conservation District.
01:52:57
There's a lot of contractors that have worked specifically on those.
01:53:00
I would hope that you would keep them mostly native plants.
01:53:05
A lot of your images were not that, but anyway, just a suggestion on that.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:53:09
Sure.
01:53:10
No, I think you would do all native.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:53:12
The good thing in looking at the townhomes, did you consider making, there seems to be a lot of difference between the contrast between the townhomes and the houses and right behind the, what are the, I had this question for staff, how would we characterize the units that are right behind those townhomes?
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
01:53:39
How would we characterize the units upon the townhomes?
01:53:42
They appear to be single-family detached units.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:53:46
OK. Have you thought about something that's more in that form that could also serve the same purpose, like maybe putting multiple units in something more of that kind of form?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:54:01
We've always, we always imagine this developing a mix of townhomes and single families and due to some of the constraints, particularly with the access here, it made sense to include these here.
01:54:12
I mean, I would say, you know, in this neighborhood here, you've got a townhome kind of across the street here and a townhome behind.
01:54:18
So it's a little, a little closer to this form.
01:54:22
But no, we didn't, we didn't look at doing a different structure than we thought about a townhome as a product, just to make a for sale, different product type in that neighborhood, basically.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:54:33
Thanks.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
01:54:38
I just have a minor question.
01:54:39
Could you go back to the slide we had, the meadow?
01:54:43
Yeah, I guess it's just really more of a question of maintenance.
01:54:46
You probably know that the natural land cover in the Piedmont is trees.
01:54:50
And so to keep meadows as meadows artificially, you have to take trees out periodically.
01:54:56
You have to even burn the meadow at certain periods to get it to regenerate.
01:55:02
So I guess I'm just curious, it's actually a lot of work to maintain a meadow.
01:55:07
So for the HOA, for the Homeowners Association, would they be charged with making sure that it looks something like your picture?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:55:16
I think so.
01:55:17
I think depending on how we arrive at a final plan with this, that there would be some sort of specification or detail as to what that meadow looks like.
01:55:26
Most of the time we've dealt with this, it has to be cut generally once or twice a year, certain seasons.
01:55:32
Mowing grass is nothing either.
01:55:35
So if you had to mow that stormwater pond area, there's a cost there.
01:55:39
So you're probably right.
01:55:40
It's probably a little more cost.
01:55:42
But once we thought about the fact that people will be coming through there, I thought, well, we should make it a little more interesting for them.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
01:55:48
Sure.
01:55:48
No, I'm not against a meadow.
01:55:49
I just want to make sure that you had that in mind in terms of the amount of maintenance.
01:55:54
Because as you know, when you leave a field untended in this area, it turns into the forest.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:55:59
The forest will come back eventually, yes.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
01:56:02
OK. And then you had select tree planting.
01:56:05
So you're also planning to put some trees along that meadow so that there would be some shade on the path?
01:56:11
Is that what you were talking about?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:56:13
I think so, yes.
01:56:14
And particularly the area up here, I feel like there's some existing trees there that we don't need to touch along the property line.
01:56:22
but we could implement some more trees there to kind of separate this area becomes a little more of its own open space so it's not part of this yard it's its own designated space and the trees are both give a little shade and then help designate the zone of where your you know open space path is as you come by the single-family houses.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
01:56:40
Okay and then one last question is up by the the top where you have the townhomes and you have the parking lot and
01:56:47
Just the buffer between your property and the unit 330.
01:56:54
I understand you have residential against residential and you don't have to have as wide of a required buffer, say, if you had commercial against residential or something.
01:57:03
But I guess I just want to hear from you on your thoughts about buffering against the property line.
01:57:09
It's pretty tight in there.
01:57:10
Have you given any thought to plantings or anything to try to soften that?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:57:17
We're certainly not opposed to any kind of added landscaping along that we can fit.
01:57:20
It is very pretty tight.
01:57:22
That's a residential side lot setback consistent with the same setbacks you'd have in the neighborhoods over here.
01:57:30
So it's a little unusual coming in next to an existing single family house.
01:57:33
I mean, it's a little bit of a matter of perspective in that there's already quite a large setback on this side.
01:57:41
So it's a weighing out of residential to be screened.
01:57:45
Do we separate?
01:57:46
like a town home for a single family house with more buffer or not.
01:57:50
Which I can see arguments both ways, but I sort of feel like it's residential on residential and the use of a town home I wouldn't view as a negative to the use of a house next door basically.
01:58:02
So from that just purely like a zoning standpoint, we wouldn't do that.
01:58:06
It's something that could be done addressed to some additional screening or something like that if that was a concern of folks.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
01:58:13
Okay and then the last question I had for you, you touched on this just briefly in your comments that maybe you hadn't given as much thought to the sort of recreational aspect and now there's this trail and I guess kids could play there and go on the trail but I mean is there is there spaces for children to play in this?
01:58:31
Have you thought about any kind of designated
01:58:35
spot for gathering or, you know, you have a cold neighborhood here.
01:58:39
Where do they get together for their potluck or whatever?
01:58:42
Do you have anything?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:58:43
Not formally.
01:58:44
This falls underneath the county's requirement for, you know, amenity space from the standpoint of the 30 units.
01:58:50
I think, you know, the units up here sort of have their own yard space and why they could, you know, come down to this space probably wouldn't necessarily have a need.
01:58:57
I think this space could certainly be implemented into some gathering space.
01:59:01
I think practically speaking, kids over here will run over into this space and play.
01:59:06
We didn't formally plan a structure or anything like that.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
01:59:09
or benches or picnic tables or anything.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
01:59:11
No, I feel like that's something that probably the HOA would want to do on its own.
01:59:16
We're not opposed to, you know, if we need to apply that to our plan, we're happy to do so.
01:59:20
I think it's practically a good idea and practically would happen.
01:59:23
We just hadn't wanted that detail on this rezoning.
01:59:27
OK, thank you.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:59:31
Hello.
01:59:33
So one of my questions, I have a couple of questions about the path.
01:59:39
and I guess I'll start with material choice because what I think would make some people happier is a way to get from the townhome community over to the commercial space with you know maybe walking or biking right so if we can somehow have a path material
02:00:02
That's green and sustainable.
02:00:05
I'm thinking, not knowing the cost of it, that some type of permeable paver would be cost prohibitive for that length of whatever.
02:00:14
But it could look nice, be green, but also be something that people could potentially buy or take a stroller on, for example, versus a meadow.
02:00:24
And I think that's something that I would like to see improved.
02:00:27
I also think
02:00:28
having you connect it from Colony Drive all the way to Private Road A as you've done but maybe even at the top there instead of you know I know this is picking it apart but a more direct route maybe even to the left side there of that first row of buildings because my guess is people from Corey Farm neighborhood on that side don't currently walk
02:00:52
to the commercial space, right?
02:00:55
Because there's no way for them to currently get there except to go out onto 250.
02:01:00
So what you are in essence creating here is a wonderful shared use path that could get everyone from Corey Farm over to the commercial space.
02:01:10
So let's do that.
02:01:12
Like let's make it something that people will actually use because otherwise even Eastern Avenue comes or doesn't come, we can get those people walking to dinner
02:01:22
and not going out onto 250 just by a minor improvement to what you have drawn here.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
02:01:31
Yeah, I think the approach that the staff and I took this was that we've got this and we're going to hear the opinions you all have and probably move that, hopefully move that forward to the board.
02:01:40
We'll vote either way and take into consideration those for any adjustments we'd make is our thought.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
02:01:49
Really short question.
02:01:50
One more.
02:01:51
I'm sorry.
02:01:52
I didn't receive these new materials in time to review them.
02:01:57
And there's no scale on the screen.
02:01:59
Just tell me, how long is that path, from the development all the way out to Colony Drive?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
02:02:06
It's about 800 feet.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
02:02:07
800 feet.
02:02:08
OK.
02:02:09
Thank you.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:02:11
Mr. Claireborne, I think you had a follow-up question.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:02:13
Yeah.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:02:14
Just conceptually, do you have a feel for the general appetite of someone wanting to walk through a wildlife meadow?
02:02:21
I see the pictures, I see a stormwater management pond, I envision snakes running around.
02:02:26
What's the appetite for someone really wanting to walk through something like that?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
02:02:30
I personally do it as often as I can, but you're right because it's probably an avenue there of some folks enjoy the nature and the birds and the risk of snakes, some folks do not.
02:02:43
So that's again sort of a subjective, I personally think a lot of people would find a meadow a little more attractive to go through.
02:02:51
and simply a grass mowed area.
02:02:53
Although it would serve either purpose in the sense that you're really trying to get over to the commercial, right, and do something over there.
02:02:59
So it's a means to get somewhere you want to get to.
02:03:02
And so there's probably a fair consideration of, well, you don't want to create a circumstance that alienates half your people because of worrying about snakes, for example, or other things.
02:03:12
So it's a fair question, I think.
02:03:15
I may apply a little of my own personal perspective to that of how I would imagine it, but it's probably fair to think through that and maybe it's detailed, maybe it needs to have longer, you know, a mowed path, you know, maybe it's 20 feet of mowing and you have a path in the center, so you have a little more cushion off the... Not intended to be silly or anything like that, but I think Commissioner Firehock kind of leaning towards that side, like is there another way to re-envision
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:03:39
Luis, can I just say that I'm thinking of it something like the parkway path, right?
02:04:01
from Belvedere to downtown, right?
02:04:05
Something like that.
02:04:06
Something that, you know, is in a nice area, but we can get people around because I just think that would add to the whole community and maybe it needs to be dedicated to public, you know, maybe it's a dedicated piece.
02:04:22
I don't know if that's possible or not, but
02:04:24
because it's going to interconnect all these communities.
02:04:27
And eventually, if Eastern Avenue comes through, those people would be able to get on the sidewalk on Private Road A and then get onto the path and get over to Clover Lawn without having to go onto 250.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
02:04:42
Yeah.
02:04:43
And that's a discussion we'd have to have at some point, you know, it was sort of envisioned as a private little trail network.
02:04:48
There's just issues of liability and things like that that go with, you know, but doesn't mean that it couldn't be a publicly dedicated, you just have to work with the details and that.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:04:56
Justin, how are you?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:05:03
So I have a question, cause I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the density on that, on that Northern leg of the property.
02:05:12
And I'm wondering, what were your limitations on putting that density on the southern section of the property?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
02:05:22
Basically, there are two things.
02:05:26
One is there's this existing private road with an easement on it that has historically served three homes.
02:05:32
And so maintaining that as serving three works with that deeded language currently without having to get into an argument over it or anything else.
02:05:42
then here, because this is an existing public road stub out, we can take the driveway to it.
02:05:50
We would have to probably put some kind of extension or maybe a public turnaround or something to make townhomes off here.
02:05:57
It's a little more complicated to extend this public road and to say, let's say if we wanted to put four townhomes here or something like that.
02:06:06
It's a much more complicated issue
02:06:10
from a zoning standpoint, then simply a shared drive, which sort of was already there, basically.
02:06:15
So the shared driveway can only serve two single-family homes, and then the Windy Knoll Lane can serve two single-family homes.
02:06:22
So that led us to the four, basically, and the density on that side.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:06:27
We're creating a private road like you're doing up in the north, where you extend Colonial Drive.
02:06:32
I guess that's the piece.
02:06:34
You create a private road that feeds townhomes.
02:06:38
on that lower section.
02:06:39
What are the limiting factors of doing that?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
02:06:42
So why it's easier over the north versus the south side, basically?
02:06:47
Because over here, we're putting a normal VDOT commercial entrance onto an existing road.
02:06:52
Over here, the discussions with the staff, this public road would be extended all the way through, or to some point with the Coldest Act, for example, which eats up a lot of land and is much more complicated than a private road.
02:07:07
I think because the way this road terminates,
02:07:10
is a much cleaner process to access a townhome section here than to extend this in some fashion with a cul-de-sac and then some kind of private road off it.
02:07:22
But that's essentially why.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:07:24
Because you don't have room, right?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
02:07:26
You don't have room in that corner with the... We cannot extend the right of way for a public road cannot extend without acquiring a corner from the neighbor at 330.
02:07:38
When the road was built, there's about a 10 or 12 foot gap here to have a full 50 foot ride away or whatever.
02:07:45
Maybe it's 56.
02:07:46
Where the colony drive right away is to continue cannot continue straight through without going over the neighbor's property.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
02:07:52
I'm sorry, I'm still trying to track what you said.
02:07:56
Colony Drive could not turn into a private drive, a private road.
02:08:02
Why not?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
02:08:03
Well, I think it could.
02:08:05
But normally speaking, VDOT doesn't allow us to basically stop a public road and make it private.
02:08:12
So there's a few circumstances we've seen something like that.
02:08:15
But typically speaking, you would have to continue this road in some distance.
02:08:20
and terminate it with a VDOT approved ending and then bring a private street off that.
02:08:27
So that added complexity and the nature of this land up here is such that you could put in these houses with really no grading or disturbance, existing trees, nice mature trees on this property line, they can be saved with this approach, whereas they would probably be taken out with a more intense construction.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:08:49
Thank you.
02:08:50
Any other questions?
02:08:51
Thank you.
02:09:05
We're opening up for
02:09:08
public comments and what we'll do is I'll give two names if so the second name is the one that's on deck you'll have three minutes and then when the yellow light comes on means you have one one minute left I have a list and we'll go through it so Leonard Ozar is the first one I have on the list and Julian Price
02:09:35
It will be on deck.
02:09:37
Please state your name and location of residence.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
02:09:42
Please support the microphone, sir.
SPEAKER_01
02:09:47
Before you all know I've been out here.
02:09:49
I live at 5302 Little Fox Lake.
02:09:53
You guys did a good job.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:09:55
Can you speak into the microphone?
SPEAKER_01
02:09:56
I said these folks did a great job presenting Mr. Carrington's case.
02:09:59
I get three minutes to tell my story.
02:10:02
I'm a developer too.
02:10:03
I've been on both sides of these chairs as well.
02:10:06
I've developed wealth north 100 million square feet all over the country.
02:10:10
I live in a little fox lane where I bought my house with my family.
02:10:13
I like it here.
02:10:14
I really do.
02:10:16
Spent a lot of money making it right.
02:10:18
I've made a lot of comments to Sid, which, quite frankly, is a surprise that you've recommended this, but I made a few quick points here, and I mean, I don't even know where to start, honestly, guys.
02:10:28
This isn't a place for a development like this next door to single-family homes.
02:10:34
It's just not the right place for it.
02:10:36
There's issues with storm drainage.
02:10:38
so many issues with infrastructure.
02:10:40
I don't know if you've driven around between three and five.
02:10:43
You can't get anywhere.
02:10:44
The city hasn't decided or the county hasn't decided to improve the infrastructure as it sits down.
02:10:50
It's just not made for the area.
02:10:52
It's just a bad decision all the way around.
02:10:54
I know three people on my block alone that have already moved.
02:10:58
They've moved out and said, we're not going to deal with this.
02:11:00
I'll be number four.
02:11:01
If you decide to go this way, I'll go find another place.
02:11:04
by a few acres down in the middle of the school road.
02:11:07
I wanted to be around families because I have a six-year-old and I really like the area.
02:11:12
Again, like I said, I'm sending her over to Brownsville, great area, but this is wrong on so many levels.
02:11:17
There are so many problems that I see here.
02:11:20
I'm sure a lot of other people will speak up.
02:11:22
The developer made promises to one of the folks that
02:11:26
you know had concerns before she bought her property and he was giving her complete don't worry this will never happen we're gonna do signal family homes that's what it is made for here that's what we're gonna continue with and then all of a sudden we find ourselves back in the situation where I'm sitting here trying to
02:11:43
make my point.
02:11:45
I have three minutes to tell you I'm not happy.
02:11:47
But honestly, you're going to get a lot of folks out here, they're going to say the same thing.
02:11:50
And it's going to make a big difference in the community.
02:11:54
Unfortunately, you're going to lose property value.
02:11:57
Absolutely.
02:11:58
Without a doubt, property values will be affected.
02:12:01
And a lot of people here, that's their home.
02:12:03
That's everything they put into this property.
02:12:05
That's what they have.
02:12:07
And they're going to lose value.
02:12:08
And not only that,
02:12:09
It's not about the value for me.
02:12:11
It's where I really liked me.
02:12:13
I built this.
02:12:14
I fixed it up the way I wanted it.
02:12:16
I'm in a great area where the schools are wonderful.
02:12:22
You all made your decision, basically.
02:12:25
Here's my choice.
02:12:26
Spend a couple hundred thousand dollars fighting it, which is no big deal.
02:12:29
Get a few attorneys and fight, or move out and find another place to live.
02:12:33
That's where I'm at.
02:12:34
These folks can't do that.
02:12:36
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:12:39
Julianne Price, and then we have Michael Crenshaw.
SPEAKER_29
02:12:46
Good evening.
02:12:46
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
02:12:48
My name is Julianne Price.
02:12:49
I live with my family at 330 Windino Lane, which is the cutout of the letter C on this proposal.
02:12:56
I do want to acknowledge all the time the county staff has put into reviewing this.
02:12:59
I'm really grateful for that and for all the neighbors who have come out to speak with us and be here today.
02:13:05
We have submitted lengthy comments.
02:13:06
I don't know if you have seen them.
02:13:09
I realize that the commission has several different interests to consider here, but I wanted to highlight one moment, take a moment to highlight one frequently cited justification for this application that I saw in the documents, which is that it is consistent with the master plan.
02:13:24
We do not believe that that is the case.
02:13:26
It's very easy to look at it on a two-dimensional map when you look at this very broad area and come to that conclusion.
02:13:31
I think it's different when you stand on the property itself.
02:13:36
The 2021 Crozet Master Plan land use guiding principles include goal number two, support existing neighborhoods in the historic context of Crozet through ensuring that new and infill development is compatible in design and scale with existing neighborhood fabric and to allow appropriate infill and redevelopment with downtown neighborhoods while supporting residents' desires for neighborhood preservation.
02:13:57
When you actually stand on the northern part of this property, I don't understand how it's possible to say that 12 to 14 townhomes on less than an acre of buildable land is consistent with the surrounding neighborhood.
02:14:08
Liberty Hall, those homes abutting the property are single family homes.
02:14:12
16 of the 18 proposed units in this development would be accessed through the surrounding Corey Farm neighborhood, which despite the designation on the map is actually built to a density of R1.
02:14:23
Not only is R6, in our opinion, not compatible in design or scale with the existing neighborhood fabric, but the actual density of that northern section is significantly higher.
02:14:33
This is a unique parcel.
02:14:35
Our lot is in the midst of it.
02:14:37
And there are many constraints related to topography that are hard to tell from the two-dimensional maps.
02:14:42
These are steep slopes.
02:14:43
That's part of the reason why you can't build a sidewalk from one side to the other very easily.
02:14:49
But so the main thing I wanted to say is that we know that there's some sort of mathematical gymnastics you can do, right?
02:14:58
Where you have four single family homes on two acres over here.
02:15:02
You have a stormwater management pond in front of our house and a buddy in a road that children play on.
02:15:06
And then you have 14 townhomes over here on this little part of an acre.
02:15:10
And somehow four plus 14 divided by three equals six.
02:15:15
But I don't think that you can in good faith say that these 14 townhomes on this part of the parcel are legitimately R6 and that this is some sort of cohesive neighborhood that is going to be a benefit to the surrounding community.
02:15:31
It's just not.
02:15:32
I know that we need more housing in Amarillo County.
02:15:35
I don't think this is an appropriate place to put it.
02:15:37
You're trying to squeeze a foot into a shoe and it just doesn't fit.
02:15:40
There are too many constraints related to easements, to topography, and to neighborhood preservation.
02:15:46
In a previous conversation with Mr. Carrington, we spoke with Mr. Carrington in June and we asked him, please don't put a townhouse development in front of our house.
02:15:59
And one of the things that he invited us to do was to discuss options to creatively think about ways that we could preserve what was most important to us without impacting his profits.
02:16:09
and what I want to say is I don't think that this needs creativity.
02:16:13
I think it's quite simple, which is build fewer units.
02:16:16
R3 is still consistent with the Crozet master plan and is completely reasonable and consistent with the scope of the single family homes around us.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:16:25
Thank you.
SPEAKER_29
02:16:26
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:16:29
Michael Crenshaw and Nadia Anderson-Sondek.
SPEAKER_06
02:16:36
Good evening.
02:16:37
I'm Michael Crenshaw.
02:16:38
I live in Crozet up by Claudius Crozet Park.
02:16:42
The county does need more housing.
02:16:44
We need more affordable housing.
02:16:46
And this would bring first a type of housing that's sort of inherently more affordable.
02:16:51
My wife and I couldn't have moved into Crozet if there weren't new townhomes that were available to us.
02:16:56
And there will be a proffer of four additional units that are affordable.
02:17:00
So this is a style of housing that we need if we're not going to expand the development area.
02:17:06
And if we're going to work within the existing development area, there's not that much more land to work with.
02:17:12
So projects are going to be imperfect.
02:17:15
We need to do as staff as recommended and try to make the most of these things since they are disruptive to people who already live there.
02:17:23
But we do need the housing and when you're working within the existing built environment, there are things about it that's going to be imperfect.
02:17:30
I know numerous workers within Crozet who commute from Waynesburg.
02:17:37
I talked to someone just the other day who commutes from Stanton.
02:17:41
She said she's very lucky to live in Stanton where things are walkable because now she can afford gas to commute to Crozet where she works.
02:17:49
I would love for folks to be able to work in Crozet and live in Crozet so that they're not spending exorbitant amounts of money on gas.
02:17:59
One person who works at one of the coffee shops moved out of Crozet into Waynesboro.
02:18:05
And he and his partner now spend about $17,000 more just on commuting, not to mention the hours and hours of their lives.
02:18:13
So these new units do make Crozet a better place.
02:18:18
I think that it is reasonably consistent with the area.
02:18:23
So they're like basically three commercial areas in Crozet.
02:18:27
This is one of the few places where we can build density close to commercial.
02:18:32
If you go about 300 feet from these 14 townhomes, there's another 30 townhomes.
02:18:39
I think that it fits well within the general area.
02:18:43
As for the path, I would really, really love to see a public connection from Colony Drive over to Quarry Drive.
02:18:53
Walk and you can drive down to 250 and then get over to the shopping center.
02:18:59
That's what people will do from Eastern Avenue, but you won't be able to bike.
02:19:02
You really can't get onto 250 and bike over to the shopping center.
02:19:06
There are thousands of families that will be connected by Eastern Avenue who would benefit from a bike path to get over to the shopping.
02:19:15
If it's private, they can do what my HOA has done and what we've seen up by Star Hill, they put up a sign and say, this is private, only residents can walk across here.
02:19:27
It's not enforceable, it's not neighborly, but it sucks.
02:19:30
And I really think that we should be providing public connections
02:19:33
for those folks coming down Eastern Avenue.
02:19:35
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:19:40
Nadia Anderson and Amanda Young is up next.
SPEAKER_12
02:19:53
Good evening commissioners.
02:19:55
My name is Nadia Anderson and I'm a resident and also the board president of the Liberty Hall HOA.
02:20:02
From the perspective of Liberty Hall, the proposed plan introduced significant stormwater risks, incompatible massing near existing homes, and a lack of connectivity, issues that were also identified in the staff report.
02:20:15
There are fundamental planning concerns rather than minor technicalities.
02:20:20
The biggest concern I have is with the proximity of a block of townhomes on top of existing homes.
02:20:27
The concept plan places the northern townhouse block extremely close to the rear property lines of Liberty Hall.
02:20:34
The Crozet master plan calls for infill that is compatible in scale and design with the existing neighborhood fabric.
02:20:42
However, this layout compresses 14 attached units into a narrow band directly behind existing single-family homes with a minimal buffering or transition.
02:20:55
This represents an abrupt density shift rather than a gradual one.
02:21:00
Furthermore, the C-shaped configuration around 330 Windy Knoll Lane suggests that the design is being forced onto a site that cannot comfortably accommodate it.
02:21:10
The proposal also fails to provide necessary connectivity.
02:21:14
As noted by staff, the design does not include interconnected streets or pedestrian bike connections.
02:21:20
For Liberty Hall, this results in more vehicle trips funneled onto Colony Drive without offsetting improvements.
02:21:28
New developments should not be designed in a way that discourage walking.
02:21:32
and while the proposal does not explicitly state that Wendy Knoll will utilize Liberty Hall infrastructure, the current design, grading and layout make that the practical outcome because the property slopes downhill towards us, the development effectively uses our neighborhood as its stormwater outlet without providing a downstream analysis or demonstrating that peak flows will not increase.
02:21:59
By placing dense units behind our homes without meaningful buffering, our backyards become the de facto buffer zone for this project.
02:22:07
Without clear plans for how runoff will be tamed or slowed, the project relies on our yards and existing drainage infrastructure, which we've talked about.
02:22:16
I have a lot of issues with Liberty Halls.
02:22:20
Stormwater to absorb increased flow from new impervious surfaces.
02:22:26
I urge the commission to deny the rezoning as proposed and ask the applicant to return with a plan that truly serves our community.
02:22:34
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:22:36
Thank you.
02:22:38
Amanda Young and Steve Wolfworth.
SPEAKER_23
02:22:47
Hi, Amanda Young.
02:22:49
So as introduction, I've been in Crozet for about seven years and a resident of Quarry Farm.
02:22:55
I am a parent of a small child in the school system in Western Albemarle, which one of the many reasons we moved to the community was for that school system.
02:23:04
Before I dive into what I want to share, I want to first note and ask that the commission note that the signs are a place for this meeting specifically.
02:23:12
were all clustered at the top of the Windy Knoll Lane driveway, and many residents of Corey Farm were not even aware that this meeting was taking place, including myself, where I found out only from neighbors texting me personally, and that one of the signs is not even close to the relevant property, it's at the house at 325, and none of them are visible from the public roads in Liberty Hall or Corey Farm.
02:23:36
So which I think is required by county regulation.
02:23:39
So I don't know how many neighbors missed this meeting tonight that would have been here because they weren't aware of this meeting even taking place.
02:23:46
So that aside, obviously, we've already talked and people have spoken to the Crozet residents that are concerned about the lack of adequate infrastructure.
02:23:55
I know that that's something that came up in this discussion.
02:23:57
and accommodating significant growth.
02:23:59
I think most people that moved to Crozet were aware, except for the people that have been there for many, many decades, we're aware that it is an up and coming place.
02:24:06
It's one of the reasons we wanted to be there is because of that growth and excited about the opportunities of having more walkable spaces.
02:24:14
However, the master plan's goal three section B regarding infill developments that are higher than recommended density provides that they should be walkable to schools and appropriately scaled to the surrounding neighborhood.
02:24:25
and this proposal is neither of those things.
02:24:28
So I know that that point and it seemed very valid that you know adding three people to Western Albemarle isn't really a concern like that shouldn't really be what tips the scales here but it's about so much more than just three students at Western Albemarle
02:24:44
It's about all of the other infrastructure that is not in place to adequately support this level of development.
02:24:51
And so while we want to talk about these walkable things, we don't have those sidewalks in place to support all of the additional families and individuals that want to be walking.
02:25:01
We don't have the additional traffic lights and expected roads in place to be able to support that.
02:25:08
And lastly, the one thing that I think I have time is around the mode path.
02:25:12
and the one thing that I think is just you can't really appreciate from the map and that you know my neighbors that we were sitting next to each other going oh that's that would that I can't see how that would work is that the grade of that that slope you really have to see it is I can't see how anyone would appreciate walking something of that steep of a grade for an enjoyable leisurely stroll
02:25:35
without it being, you know, a more significant path, certainly not as a mode path, which as denoted about the stormwater drain off, et cetera, I can already see the mushy sloshy mess that that would become.
02:25:48
So thank you for your consideration.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:25:51
Thank you.
02:25:54
Steve Woolsworth and then Bill O'Malley.
SPEAKER_21
02:25:59
Good evening, commissioners.
02:26:01
I'm Steve Walsworth.
02:26:02
I'm a Crozet and a Corey Farm resident.
02:26:04
Been for over 23 years.
02:26:07
I've seen a lot of changes happening in the Crozet area.
02:26:10
I'm sure as many of you have.
02:26:12
But I'm originally from Southern California, where I was born and raised, and I saw a lot of changes there.
02:26:19
There was a big housing boom, and a lot of orange groves were ripped up and turned into housing areas.
02:26:26
to include shopping centers, streets.
02:26:30
But the best example I can give is a town called Irvine.
02:26:34
Originally, it was Irvine Cattle Ranch.
02:26:37
It had 100,000 acres of just cattle and grasslands, and they converted that within two decades into an award-winning town.
02:26:46
They won kudos and awards for best transportation systems, best emergency vehicle response systems, and they had compatible between residents and natural settings.
02:27:03
They did a lot to do it, but they started with a plan and they kept to that plan.
02:27:07
They had standards.
02:27:09
They didn't mishmash the whole thing together.
02:27:11
They went and they had a plan, like I said, and they kept it.
02:27:17
My background and my family background is my grandfather was after World War II.
02:27:23
He came to Southern California and he jumped into real estate and also was a land developer also.
02:27:33
My father spent 40 years doing the same thing in the same area.
02:27:37
So I have an understanding of how things work in that kind of business.
02:27:42
And I saw that a lot of towns that didn't keep us
02:27:45
to the plan.
02:27:48
If they had a plan and didn't keep to it, that's where they failed and there's a lot of troubles with it.
02:27:53
I think the plan that we have is good.
02:27:56
I see right now that we have Liberty Hall, which has a, I call it a village because it has a nice setting and if you walk the streets there and it melds right in very nice with the Corey farm and now they want to stick in a mismatched
02:28:13
development in between there that just doesn't doesn't meld up well very well with either either development.
02:28:21
I see 12 now it's I guess been modified to 12 units in that one acre on the northern part there.
02:28:28
And they're basically coming out of a driveway.
02:28:32
That 20-foot private road is a driveway.
02:28:35
It's not really a road for 12 families to use as a road.
02:28:41
Where's the play area for the kids also in that development?
02:28:45
Where's the parking on the side of the road in that area?
02:28:49
There isn't any.
02:28:50
Whereas if somebody has a birthday party, where are the extra cars going to park?
02:28:55
When Eastern Avenue is developed, they're not going to be able to park there.
02:28:58
So all those are just, it's just inappropriate that right now.
02:29:04
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:29:06
Thank you.
02:29:08
Bill O'Malley and Michael Monaco, maybe?
SPEAKER_04
02:29:18
Sorry if I get that.
02:29:20
Good evening.
02:29:21
I'm Bill O'Malley and I'm also the, I'm from Crozet and I'm also the board president for the Western, West Hill, West Lake Hills.
02:29:31
Development.
02:29:33
I want to highlight several planning concerns identified by the county staff report that raise questions about whether this proposal works as responsible infill development.
02:29:45
It appears to me that the developer just did the bare minimum to slap together this development.
02:29:51
I'm kind of appalled
02:29:53
and first I want to talk about connectivity.
02:29:56
One of the county's core planning goals is, and it's been mentioned tonight, interconnected streets and safe pedestrian and bike access.
02:30:07
Staff is clear that the proposal does not provide those connections.
02:30:12
instead it relies on separate private access points and they really don't integrate well with this surrounding neighborhood.
02:30:21
True infill development should be held to a higher standard.
02:30:24
You've got a round hole and you have a square peg, a round hole and a square peg you're trying to put together with this project.
02:30:35
And it's disconnected at best.
02:30:41
Even if street connections aren't possible, the opportunity for better walkability exists in this site to the nearby centers.
02:30:50
But it's not being realized in this plan.
02:30:52
It's so clear.
02:30:53
The developer added a mowed path, the bare minimum that they could do at the last minute.
02:31:00
You should see through that.
02:31:01
And that's not a solution.
02:31:04
That's grossly inadequate.
02:31:06
Another concern, and I know it was dismissed, is school capacity.
02:31:10
We've got kids in Crozet now, three seats on the bus, three kids in a single seat.
02:31:17
And it's clear in Henley Middle School, in addition to Albemarle County,
02:31:23
Albemarle High School, Albemarle High School has exceeded capacity and Henley is nearing capacity.
02:31:32
While this project doesn't create the problem, it's really
02:31:40
straining and already it's already it's contributing to an already strained situation and that should matter when evaluating growth decisions not to mention you know finally the infrastructure certainty the proper references of future roadway improvement the eastern avenue connector
02:32:02
But their commitment expires in 10 years.
02:32:05
That creates uncertainty around when or if meaningful connectivity will ever happen.
02:32:12
And staff did note there's no timeline.
02:32:15
There's no construction.
02:32:17
Kevin McDermott was out at the CCAC.
02:32:20
There's nothing determined.
02:32:22
So, Wendy Noel does not align with the county's planning priorities for connectivity, walkability, and public facility impacts.
02:32:32
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:32:34
Thank you.
02:32:36
Michael Monaco and then Paul Cherine.
Michael Monaco
02:32:50
Good evening, Planning Commission.
02:32:51
My name is Michael Monaco.
02:32:52
I also live in the Whitehall District.
02:32:55
I live in Crozet in the development area.
02:32:58
I live in Crozet in a neighborhood that was built within the last seven years, over the last seven years, a neighborhood that currently has four single-family detached homes and 16 attached town homes, one of which I call home.
02:33:14
That all is set on about a little over three acres of developable land.
02:33:20
I live in this neighborhood with my neighbors, working families that serve our community, retired locals, all active members of the community.
02:33:29
My neighbors do include kids, about a half dozen elementary school age, half dozen middle school age, one high schooler right now.
02:33:37
We are connected to one of the centers in Crozet, downtown Crozet, by a patchwork of intermittent sidewalks, shared use paths, and even a rough muddy meadow trail through a neighboring property.
02:33:55
Those get us to the grocery store about a half mile away.
02:33:58
Folks who live in our neighborhood and have worked in Crozet are able to do so on foot, are able to get downtown on foot or on bikes.
02:34:08
Could our infrastructure be better?
02:34:09
100%.
02:34:09
And do we also consider ourselves very lucky to live in Crozet?
02:34:14
Absolutely.
02:34:17
Turn to the Crozet Master Plan for a second, and I will note I do currently chair the Crozet Community Advisory Committee, but I don't speak for that body here tonight, just for myself.
02:34:26
Goal 3B talks about infill development.
02:34:30
We've heard about that some tonight.
02:34:32
To allow infill development within the downtown neighborhoods and other areas that are walkable to centers or schools through the legislative review process.
02:34:41
Allow these through the legislative review process.
02:34:44
Is this infill development that's walkable to a center?
02:34:46
I think it could be better.
02:34:48
I think the applicant should continue to improve the site plan to create more definite non-car infrastructure to get people around.
02:34:55
I recognize the challenges brought on by slopes and other natural features, but I think formally and intentionally tying a bike-ped network, at least over to Colony Drive, say from the northern townhomes, would go a long way to connecting people to the village center that we're talking about here tonight.
02:35:12
I'll just finish by saying, we are currently experiencing a crisis of housing affordability in Albemarle County.
02:35:18
More than half of households who rent in the county are currently cost burdened.
02:35:23
There's a lot of factors that drive prices in the housing market, a lot of gears that turn the great wheels of supply and demand.
02:35:30
But right now, tonight at this meeting, your hands are on the levers of supply and you can have an effect.
02:35:36
It takes a combination of inelastic supply and high demand to drive prices and assessments up.
02:35:42
And like I said, right now, in this room, you have some power and responsibility over at least the supply lever.
02:35:47
I hope you consider that.
02:35:49
Thank you very much.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:35:51
Thank you.
02:35:53
Paul, Shireen.
02:35:57
It's Shireen.
SPEAKER_02
02:35:58
Close enough.
02:35:58
Thank you.
02:35:59
And Ben Cowell is up on deck.
02:36:04
All right, thank you for the time.
02:36:05
I want to echo several of my neighbors that are in the room.
02:36:08
My name is Paul Sheeran.
02:36:09
I'm a resident at Liberty Hall.
02:36:12
One of the houses that's cornered in by this northern block that we keep talking about.
02:36:17
When we bought this house, we didn't expect that this beautiful wooded lot behind our house would stay a wooded lot forever.
02:36:23
I think that was kind of always understood.
02:36:25
There would be development.
02:36:27
I have to be candid and say I didn't expect to have the opportunity to look into four sets of bedrooms and living rooms in the future.
02:36:36
That's my personal issue with this.
02:36:39
That's actually not what I want to talk to you about.
02:36:41
I think echoing what some of our neighbors have said tonight, there are concerns about just how this is kind of put together.
02:36:48
I'm an engineer.
02:36:49
I spend a lot of my day thinking about requirements and how you can fill those and still fail.
02:36:54
That's what I see in this plan.
02:36:56
I think you can look at Liberty Hall and say, hey, there are townhomes there, so why don't we put townhomes here?
02:37:03
But functionally, the townhomes in this one aren't connected to where the people are trying to travel.
02:37:07
If we're going to put high density somewhere,
02:37:09
It should be connected close to where they're trying to get.
02:37:11
This is how Liberty Hall functions.
02:37:13
The townhomes exit to the shops and the street in Harris Teeter.
02:37:19
We have a path now that connects.
02:37:20
And I think anybody that has an idea of what a path could be would look at that and say, yes, but people don't walk along the path if they have a shorter path.
02:37:28
So what I see in that as an engineer is my neighbors at 330 will have a nice natural path developing over time as the kids from these townhomes just walk across their property to get where they want to go.
02:37:39
This is not really thought out.
02:37:41
I think what we should be doing with this is moving the high density towards where the other high density is and tying this together and making it functional and making this neighborhood look like the rest of the neighborhood around it.
02:37:52
So I would propose that that is a better alternative to think about how to connect these, to tie the path together in a meaningful way that doesn't just weave around and require a wall to stop people from walking onto the neighborhood.
02:38:04
It is not part of theirs.
02:38:06
And I think that's the main point to bring up tonight.
02:38:08
I encourage you to think about it.
02:38:10
Thank you.
02:38:12
Ben Cowell?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:38:16
Maybe?
02:38:20
You need to come to speak at the microphone.
SPEAKER_09
02:38:32
Yeah, my name is Feng Kuo.
02:38:34
I just want to say the question I have, I want to address regarding to this new proposed going to be either view or not going to be denied view the new subdivision have been asked for
02:38:52
You know, many people attending to this meeting and have been asked for many of the planning commissioner.
02:39:02
So I have no questions now.
02:39:04
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:39:05
Thank you.
02:39:08
Those were all the names I had on the list.
02:39:09
If there's any one else in the audience that would like to speak tonight, please come forward.
SPEAKER_19
02:39:26
Hi, Janie Holbrook, and thanks for indulging the latecomer.
02:39:29
I just have one question, and that is
02:39:34
Where are people going to park when they're invited to a Super Bowl party, to the 4th of July, to Mother's Day, to Thanksgiving?
02:39:44
That density with those 12 units, very few buffers, no public streets, no on-street parking, and really no ability to spill over elsewhere if Eastern Avenue is built,
02:39:57
Otherwise you burden, I guess, your neighbors until that time happens.
02:40:02
I think that when we build and fill townhomes, it's important to think about how people live and how people want to live and that they don't want to just be isolated and never have guests.
02:40:14
and I just speak from having lived in one of those where I couldn't have people for the important events that happen every year.
02:40:23
So anyway, just a thought and see if they've come up with a lottery system that they're going to use with the folks who are going to buy those townhomes.
02:40:31
Thanks.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:40:33
Thank you.
02:40:34
Anyone else?
SPEAKER_31
02:40:43
Mark S when I live in Little Fox Lane.
02:40:46
So given the topography of the area, like if there are children or others that live in that area, or if you have elderly folks that we have, my in-laws live with me.
02:40:57
And so we have like a nice plain topography.
02:41:00
But given the ice storm that we just had here, I would say that the folks that would live in that area would be stuck there for weeks or longer.
02:41:09
The ice and the inability to remove it would be kind of just trap them there.
02:41:16
And the other fact that it's a private road, it's not connected to VDOT, who's going to serve it?
02:41:23
The fact that we had VDOT that came and actually served our roads in Corey Farm,
02:41:26
a couple days after the event meant that we could get out of there and actually continue with our lives.
02:41:32
Or if you have these private roads, like how are the folks in those townhomes actually going to be able to get support they need if there's an emergency that arises.
02:41:41
In terms of the children, so that steep grading that would be needed for the driveway that comes from those homes,
02:41:51
There has to be consideration that if folks, you know, I assume they would go and look at it and say, well, I can't live here with such a such a steep slope.
02:42:00
And then in general, like if there's concerns with such runoff and the infrastructure that's needed to make sure that there isn't there,
02:42:10
Like if there is flooding that occurs, I remember at one point many years ago having to use a kayak when I was in Houston to try to get around places because of the flooding that happened there.
02:42:22
So like if there is flooding that occurs in that area, what does that mean for the folks that are there that all of a sudden have this again topography that is against like
02:42:34
the general area and the slope there.
02:42:36
So there's some safety concerns that I would want to make sure that they're addressed.
02:42:42
And then the connectivity, like kids and Corey Farm go everywhere.
02:42:48
And there's a lot more kids than just three per those 18 houses and Corey Farms, you can check the buses for that.
02:42:56
And so I'm sure the Corey Farm kids will also want to play there.
02:42:59
But then how do they do that and actually connect
02:43:02
Hi, I live in Quarry Farm.
SPEAKER_16
02:43:25
I got to say, oh, my name is Kirsty Eyde.
02:43:29
Thanks.
02:43:30
I wasn't expecting to be here tonight, so I'm glad I was able to make it.
02:43:35
We have an incredible neighborhood and our neighborhood is full of
02:43:40
people who just really love and watch out for each other and help each other out and take care of each other and I think that a lot of what has bothered me is our neighbors who are honestly
02:43:59
The development is kind of like a slap in their face of like, you know what, move away.
02:44:04
Because you could tell what's going to happen.
02:44:08
It looks from how the development has been made and shown that they're just waiting for this house to
02:44:14
I don't think that's neighborly.
02:44:20
I think that we need to be respectful of people and their property and they have put so much time and energy into their beautiful home and their property.
02:44:32
I honestly just think that we need to respect that and not make their property something that's going to be trashed.
02:44:40
Not that people would intentionally, but when there's inappropriate building around it, they're going to be the ones who suffer.
02:44:48
And I know they're just one house, but that's a house and that's a family that mean a lot to me.
02:44:54
I think that we need to care for our neighbors.
02:44:57
Just like we need to care to give our neighbors a place to live, we need to care for the ones who are already there.
02:45:03
And that one house and that one family counts and they matter so much.
02:45:07
The other thing is that with the walking, it has been wonderful.
02:45:10
We have a sidewalk now that walks us to Harris Teeter and
02:45:16
Everybody goes walking their dogs.
02:45:18
Liberty Hall and Quarry Farm.
02:45:19
We all know each other really well because we all walk our dogs and sometimes we don't know each other's names but we know each other's dogs and it's wonderful.
02:45:26
We have a great walking community in that respect so we don't need that to the development to build.
02:45:32
I'm not quite sure where that was.
02:45:34
The other thing is that water is a huge issue.
02:45:38
The runoff will come in that little in that
02:45:41
that area right there and there's going to be a lot of kids there and there's going to be a great opportunity for someone quite frankly to drown because it's so close to where the homes are.
02:45:52
It's also close to where the street is and I know that we just in our own neighborhood have a lot of flooding issues where the grates are.
02:46:01
Anyway, I am
02:46:04
Done.
02:46:05
Yes.
02:46:05
Anyway, I would like them to redo.
02:46:07
I would actually just like it if they just put three homes there just like we, it should have been originally.
02:46:13
So thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:46:15
Thank you.
Lori Schweller
Attorney
02:46:21
Good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission.
02:46:23
I'm Lori Schweller.
02:46:24
I live at 5303 Little Fox Lane, immediately south of the development.
02:46:29
I hadn't planned to speak, but I wanted to raise a planning issue because this is the planning commission and I've always wanted to raise this issue and this is the perfect opportunity to do it.
02:46:38
When we talk about, a lot of people have talked about the buffers, or lack thereof, between townhomes and single-family homes.
02:46:48
and I just want to emphasize it's not the contiguity of townhomes and single-family homes, it's the parking lot.
02:46:56
So some of us here have lived on this street for 22, 23 years, so we saw the development of Liberty Hall, all the phases of Liberty Hall, and suddenly I had a parking lot in my backyard.
02:47:09
A parking lot has a lot of impact.
02:47:12
It has a lot of noise.
02:47:14
I know the tape deck of every homeowner in the townhomes.
02:47:21
It has a lot of light.
02:47:23
Those lights are shining directly into your home, and there's not buffering.
02:47:27
And I just want to raise that issue.
02:47:29
I think it's important that we have buffering between townhomes and single-family homes on the townhome lots, significant buffering.
02:47:38
There were a few, you know,
02:47:40
bushes that were built along the Liberty Hall parking lot.
02:47:43
But those immediately died after pickup trucks backed into them.
02:47:46
So then there was nothing.
02:47:48
And so you have single family home yards and parking lot.
02:47:51
And that's what what we were left with.
02:47:53
And I think it's an important planning issue.
02:47:55
And I can see that happening here.
02:47:58
I mean, these townhomes are wedged into that one acre lot with very little setback.
02:48:05
And there's I don't even know if there is room for buffering.
02:48:08
But it's a serious issue.
02:48:09
I understand the zoning ordinance is what it is.
02:48:13
But you're the Planning Commission, so I just wanted to raise that issue.
02:48:17
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:48:17
Thank you.
02:48:21
Anyone else?
SPEAKER_15
02:48:26
I don't think I need three minutes.
02:48:27
I'm Taryn Price.
02:48:29
I live at 330 Windy and Ola as the other adult in the middle of the C shape.
02:48:35
Maybe I'll be last.
02:48:36
So I just wanted to maybe hammer home a couple points.
02:48:40
So Laurie just talked about the buffering.
02:48:44
I hope we don't actually, I support the buffering obviously, but I hope we don't need
02:48:53
to buffer from 14 units.
02:48:54
That keeps coming up.
02:48:55
That's the main issue.
02:48:56
Nobody's really arguing about the four units on the southern half.
02:48:59
It's the northern part that's inconsistent with everything around it and right next to my house.
02:49:05
And yes, it does look like my yard is the playground for this new community because it's right in the middle of the whole thing.
02:49:12
But I think you can still meet
02:49:14
the master plan's goals by reducing that.
02:49:18
And that's the main issue.
02:49:19
Like I'm totally sympathetic to the need for more housing.
02:49:22
I understand we need to up zone these areas, but like our six really with 14 units on less than an acre is just insane.
02:49:30
I think that's insane.
02:49:33
It sounded like the answer to could you provide more buffering is, well, they have a lot of space on their land to provide their own buffering, which we would do, but that seems like an unnecessary burden.
02:49:46
So anyway, that's my rant about that.
02:49:48
I don't think I need any more time, but reduce that.
02:49:51
That's the main thing for me is 14 units less than an acre doesn't seem reasonable at all to me personally.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:50:00
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00
02:50:11
As a minority, I understand that housing is important and affordable housing it is.
02:50:16
At the same time, I feel that this project doesn't provide that in a sense that is clamping a bunch of houses in one acre without providing the kids that may live there enough space to run around.
02:50:31
and providing the neighbor's house, the playground for those kids.
02:50:36
At the same time, we have a lot of animals around the area.
02:50:40
We have bears that come every year.
02:50:44
We have fox, and this is why our street is called Little Fox.
02:50:49
We have owls.
02:50:51
My cat enjoys snakes, by the way.
02:50:54
And yes, it can be a safety issue if there is not an area that is clean at all times.
02:51:06
I enjoy that my cat enjoys the snakes, but I would not enjoy the snakes myself or my kids around.
02:51:13
I know that this is a private property.
02:51:16
but kids are kids and I know my kids will go around that area and I know they will play with the kids in that area and there is nothing that I can do because we are now, those houses will become part of our community.
02:51:30
I want my neighbors' kids to be able to have a green area in a backyard that they can play with or they can play in but those townhouses do not provide that.
02:51:43
The pond, I see that as a danger because every time that it rains, if it's not well, take care of.
02:51:50
It's just full of water and danger for the kids.
02:51:55
And as our neighbors point out, kids go around the neighborhood without feeling in danger.
02:52:03
And kids being kids, I'm afraid that they're going to be getting into the pond or because they're exploring having some snakes around themselves.
02:52:15
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:52:19
Anyone else?
02:52:25
Do we have anybody online?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
02:52:27
I do not have anyone with their hand up at this time.
02:52:32
No, sir.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:52:35
Mr. Shipp, would you like to respond to any of the comments that you heard?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
02:52:47
Yes, Justin Shim.
02:52:49
Thanks for the opportunity to follow up this.
02:52:50
I just want to get a couple points that I brought up.
02:52:52
When there was a comment about the density higher in the comprehensive plan, it's not.
02:52:57
There is discussion in the comprehensive plan about going above, let's say, a six and what might entail that, but we are not.
02:53:04
And just to bring it back to where we started from, integrating this into the neighborhood, you're at 2.6 billion units per acre.
02:53:10
So this is not changing
02:53:14
the overall neighborhood significantly in its density.
02:53:17
It is providing housing opportunities for those folks who want to live in Crozet.
02:53:22
I appreciate a few folks coming out and talking about that, how the townhome is their entry point into these neighborhoods where kids run around and play, the neighbors take care of each other, they walk their dogs.
02:53:31
That's great.
02:53:33
And we're trying to integrate housing types that allow people of different income scales to enter those neighborhoods and enjoy it.
02:53:40
And that's really the basis of these infill projects trying to target these higher densities.
02:53:45
Albemarle has a comprehensive plan that's been followed pretty well.
02:53:49
It was a comment that, you know, if you have a plan you follow it, you have followed it.
02:53:53
But that has created excellent neighborhoods in Crozet that people want to live in.
02:53:57
If we do not establish
02:53:59
opportunity for a variety of housing points, you will narrow down the folks that can afford to live in that community.
02:54:07
And that is really something that I think the county has done a good job of trying to avoid.
02:54:11
and a project like this does a good job of allowing those folks you heard from who might be commuting from Stanton or wherever it may be to come work in Crozet to live in the community of work because otherwise they're priced out.
02:54:22
So that's really the bottom line of this whole endeavor.
02:54:25
And I do realize that these infill sites are going to be imperfect.
02:54:30
We're not starting from scratch on 100,000 acres in California.
02:54:33
We are starting on three acres in a nice little community where we want to get some folks who live there
02:54:39
raised their kids, walked the dogs, and Julian went to Albemarle County and asked to offer.
02:54:43
And that is going to create some conflicts.
02:54:45
We're happy to explore what we can do on screening parking lots.
02:54:50
The county does have an ordinance for that that we have to follow.
02:54:54
Maybe it's not extensive enough.
02:54:56
I don't know that.
02:54:58
But I can see that being a concern.
02:54:59
Other things that were brought up about runoff and private road maintenance, those are really kind of site plan, tenant details.
02:55:05
The county has a variety of ordinances.
02:55:08
to address those, this really is about how we're going to tackle this infill development.
02:55:13
You're going to have conflicts of neighbors that have been there.
02:55:16
One acre lot has been there probably for 30 or 40 years.
02:55:19
and now it's a change.
02:55:20
And I can appreciate the folks who live there would not appreciate that.
02:55:24
I understand it.
02:55:25
But at the same time, if we sort of said, well, all our planning has to evolve around these things, then it would never be to get these infill projects approved, basically.
02:55:34
And that's the conflict we have to all navigate.
02:55:37
And we need to do our best to include provisions, trails that are meaningful for kids to run back and forth on.
02:55:44
screening and things where we can, but at the end of the day, to be successful, these projects have to have enough density to get built, because there's always an avenue going back and saying, oh, you put one house there.
02:55:55
That really doesn't advance the cause of the comprehensive plan in trying to enhance the housing opportunities in the county.
02:56:01
So that's the last items I wanted to add.
02:56:03
I appreciate you all's time tonight and happy to answer any further questions.
02:56:07
I think our hope is that
02:56:09
What we've presented is reasonable and can move forward with some pointed advice on how to handle the trail system and connectivity.
02:56:17
There were some good comments made about the public connections, and I can't imagine that children are going to run from one place to the other.
02:56:24
That's great.
02:56:26
And so we should be able to handle that in some way that's appropriate.
02:56:30
But we hope you can do that, and we appreciate your time tonight and look forward to your deliberations.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:56:37
Any other questions for the applicant?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:56:39
Yes, I did have a question.
02:56:41
One of the things that was brought up by several people is, you know, is where will kids, sorry, where will families park when there's a birthday party or there's a need for events or that sort of thing?
02:56:51
I experienced this just myself, my own daughter driving to a neighborhood in Charlottesville, you know, all of us trying to drop off kids, not even staying, just trying to drop the kids off at one house.
02:57:03
So how do you envision that happening in here?
02:57:07
and having room for those kinds of activities.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
02:57:10
So we do provide, you know, guest parking.
02:57:13
It's a ratio, I think, of one per four units that the county has required, right?
02:57:16
And every unit has to have two parking spaces.
02:57:19
For the interim, I imagine folks will kind of park along that.
02:57:21
Corey Farm is a very, you know, is a public road, which you can imagine people do pull off the side of and park there, and that may happen.
02:57:27
So if Eastern Avenue gets built or Winnick gets built, that may compromise that.
02:57:33
I think a connection if we have up to the
02:57:36
Public Street Network up at Colony Drive, a good folks offering to park there.
02:57:42
I think it's also probably a reality of that when you choose to...
02:57:46
If you're trying to get in this neighborhood and you want to live in this neighborhood, you may have to sacrifice a little bit in that respect.
02:57:50
I think that's probably what you heard from some folks is that, yeah, we'd love to have a town home and four parking spaces.
02:57:56
but if we have to choose between, you know, the town home in Crozet or none, those things probably have to get sacrificed a little bit and we don't want to create, you know, more impervious area just to have excess parking.
02:58:07
So the balance there too, right?
02:58:08
I think the county tries to get this with two parking spaces per unit and one per four for guests.
02:58:14
That's been the standard for a long time.
02:58:16
Is that enough for every circumstance?
02:58:18
Probably not.
02:58:19
There'll be times when it's an inconvenience but then, you know, the counter of that would be do we want to create a lot of extra parking that would be
02:58:25
I think the answer is probably, again, it's not quite perfect.
02:58:34
But we've been working in these neighborhoods a long time and the folks who move into them, I think, have an expectation of how that they have to deal with.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:58:43
Thanks.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
02:58:46
Thank you.
02:58:51
Okay, we'll bring it back to the commission, close the public hearing.
02:59:00
Time for deliberation.
02:59:03
Initial thoughts?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:59:07
My thought is that I think some more density is here.
02:59:11
I don't think more single family is what I would want here.
02:59:20
So I think some amount of density.
02:59:22
But it does seem like that this is inconsistent with the neighboring properties, and it's not
02:59:31
It's very abrupt.
02:59:34
I think if you had a little bit less density, you could have more room for some buffering, maybe some more accommodations for the families that may be there.
02:59:47
I just think of the scale that it's at.
02:59:50
It's a little bit too dense, particularly all of it crammed into that northern section.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:00:06
First I'll say I fully support like in field development so I'm along the same lines as you but I was saying not at the the price of quality of life I think it's those things you don't see on paper versus like actually going to the site but I think the good news is that there's it's design and that there's multiple solutions to solve any design challenge right
03:00:37
And unfortunately, I feel like what's brought before me tonight is it's not fully cooked.
03:00:41
And I think we deserve to see a plan that's fully cooked.
03:00:45
We talked a lot about poor interconnectivity, which I feel like was kind of done at the last minute.
03:00:50
I didn't even see the plan, honestly, before I walked in the door.
03:00:52
I didn't even see the new plan.
03:00:53
The location of the density on the site.
03:01:00
Excuse me.
03:01:03
The location seems a little inappropriate.
03:01:06
So whether that's less density in that northern end, or can you explore ways to put more in the southern end?
03:01:12
I think that comment came from Commissioner Carrazana earlier.
03:01:16
The green space utilization.
03:01:17
Thank you.
03:01:18
I'm struggling over here.
03:01:19
I'm about to die.
03:01:20
Green space utilization just seems like it's just underutilized, especially for families and so forth.
03:01:27
So there's a whole laundry list of things.
03:01:29
I think it just comes from, to me, it's not a fully cooked plan yet.
03:01:33
So with that, I'm not in a position to support at the moment.
03:01:36
So that's it for me.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:01:42
I was jotting down some, some thoughts on this because, and this was not meant to be any kind of, of,
03:01:49
I also live in the development area, one of the other development areas.
03:01:51
And if you live in a development area, things may change around you.
03:01:54
That's just kind of the way things are around here.
03:01:57
We are, again, a growing county and we've made a decision to try and concentrate that growth in certain areas.
03:02:03
And there's definitely a strong need for more housing supply.
03:02:06
It's a whole ecosystem.
03:02:07
When you build some homes, even if they're high priced, that means, you know, people move into those and that opens up some lower priced ones elsewhere.
03:02:14
I also appreciate that the applicant brought compliance with Albemarle's affordable housing plan.
03:02:22
That's a nice perk, although the numbers are not huge because it's just a three acre site, but still that's
03:02:27
three or four families potentially that could get a home that might not have been able to.
03:02:34
We do have pretty good infrastructure in our development areas.
03:02:36
That's the whole point.
03:02:37
Now, that said, it's a really tough parcel.
03:02:41
It's a really tough parcel.
03:02:43
It's C-shaped, for crying out loud.
03:02:44
It's got different entrances.
03:02:46
And it's not Irvine, which could just be platted out.
03:02:55
And I keep asking myself, we have so many things we've inherited from past development patterns and from past private ownership and weird shaped parcels.
03:03:05
And why would colony have ever been stubbed out like that if it couldn't have been extended realistically?
03:03:11
And I don't know if there's some exceptions that are possible or some way to look at that.
03:03:15
Why have parcels that are these shapes?
03:03:20
And I do think that if you tally up the units per acre, it is an appropriate number of units per acre, but the way it's shaped and the way that people would kind of have to live, especially in that northern part, I'm having a hard time grokking it.
03:03:33
And that's unusual coming from me because I usually support a lot of really densely packed things.
03:03:44
The trail interconnection, it is half-baked.
03:03:50
It was kind of rushed, you can tell, but that doesn't bother me an incredible amount.
03:03:54
I mean, most people are going to use their cars to go grocery shopping here regardless.
03:03:57
That said, in my mind, if there was some way to have six or seven townhomes in the southern part of the sea and six or seven in the northern part of the sea, that feels better.
03:04:10
I just have a really hard time figuring out how this would
03:04:14
how people would like how to live there in a way that feels thriving and comfortable.
03:04:21
And it's not about being super inconsistent.
03:04:24
There's other six, seven, eight unit townhomes literally a couple hundred feet away.
03:04:29
That doesn't bother me so much as the fact that like everything's packed in this one zone in a way that I'm having a hard time with.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:04:40
I want to say that I really appreciate the community members who showed up tonight to speak on behalf of the affordable housing perspective.
03:04:55
I think there's one comment early on from someone that was concerned about their property value.
03:05:03
and I think I'd like to just remind everyone that since 2020, specifically 2023, your values in Western Albemarle County went up about 13.7% in one year and then in 2025, another 7.8 and then this year, another 10%.
03:05:21
So your values are actually increasing exponentially, you're correct.
03:05:29
and this is going to help with that issue for the community at large.
03:05:36
So it's going to help with your taxes if you don't move but the value that you've gained over the last five years because of the problem, the severe crisis that we have with inventory
03:05:51
counteracts that.
03:05:53
So I think that's really important.
03:05:55
The median home income, home value in Albemarle County right now is $530,000.
03:06:02
So people cannot afford to live here.
03:06:06
One of the reasons they can't afford to live here is because we don't have enough land to develop on.
03:06:14
And the only way that we get that is by potentially expanding the development area, which most people don't want.
03:06:21
So the argument that I hear constantly is we have to end fill and we have to end fill at the maximum capacity.
03:06:31
So in general, I'm very much in favor of the density of this proposal.
03:06:42
I am also, I do not think it's inconsistent with the types of housing or surrounding it.
03:06:48
As was just pointed out by Mr. Moore, there are literally four blocks of townhouses less than 500 feet away.
03:06:56
And I think that from my perspective, this may not be exactly why
03:07:05
the developer did it or the engineer proposed this but they've made the single-family homes just the four units to be right behind the houses that are the larger single-family lots in Corey Farm so they're not putting a row of townhouses right behind the Corey Farm people on Little Fox Lane I think maybe that was even somewhat intentional I know it probably had more to do with road structure but
03:07:31
It's not fair to 3330.
03:07:35
I think it would be difficult to come up with something that makes it feel fair to that person no matter what you do.
03:07:46
So I'm in favor of it.
03:07:50
I would like to see the path connect the communities.
03:07:55
I think that the
03:07:57
Sidewalk and the planting strip on one side of the street is fine in that location for the size of development.
03:08:03
I'm not worried about the schools at all considering what's happening in the greater Crozet development area.
03:08:09
This is a very, very, very minor consideration in that regard.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:08:18
If I could echo that part too, I actually didn't have a big problem with the waiver for the planting and sidewalk because it's relatively small but that's, I feel like, almost going to be secondary if we've got like so much crammed into a small space up there, personally.
03:08:36
And I would welcome a different kind of, like I'll welcome the density, I just, this is really hard, this particular iteration.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:08:45
Well, I don't want to repeat everything that my colleagues have already said.
03:08:48
As I, you know, I agree with some things you said about, many things you said about infill, we need to do infill so that we don't expand the growth area.
03:08:59
But I also feel that it's our job as planning commissioners to help ensure that, as we've said, we only have weird lots, a lot of weird lots left.
03:09:07
You know, the good stuff's gone already.
03:09:09
Everyone already built that, the easy stuff.
03:09:12
But that said, I think that it's our job as a commission to take extra care then to make sure that as we infill, we do so thoughtfully.
03:09:22
And I feel that I'm not opposed to some townhomes or maybe it's, you know, two sets of duplexes or whatever it is, but the level of density that's crammed into this one spot while it maths out, if you look at all three acres,
03:09:40
It's so jammed up in there in that back corner.
03:09:43
And I do think about the birthday party and where are kids going to play?
03:09:48
And I know it's fine to say, well, just run run amok in the field over there.
03:09:52
But and I like I'm not scared of snakes, but I've run around in fields and I never got a snake bite my whole life.
03:09:58
But nevertheless, I think that
03:10:03
It's not ripe for approval this evening, in my mind, because of the layout of that northern lot.
03:10:12
And I'm still not completely convinced, notwithstanding that the current road easements allow the developer to fit the three houses easily down on the south.
03:10:24
I still think we could find a way to get more in there and balance out this
03:10:29
this development more.
03:10:30
And I didn't hear from the neighbors that it wasn't a presentation of we don't want anything to happen here.
03:10:36
You know, I think they accept that they're going to have some development, but I just don't think that the layout is well done for the northern part.
03:10:46
It puts too much burden on that.
03:10:48
And I do think we need if you go forward to the board that, you know, we need some some more thoughtful intention around community gathering space.
03:10:57
You know, not everyone can just go off to the field there.
03:11:01
Someplace you could have a picnic or something, a gazebo, something that you give them closer to where people live, especially people with small children.
03:11:11
So with that, I'm not in favor of this development that is currently laid out.
03:11:18
I am in favor of more density there.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:11:22
Can I say one thing?
03:11:25
With respect to where the density of the neighborhood is on the property, I think it's just important to point out that townhouses are dense.
03:11:39
So, you know, I'm thinking about my friends and family that live in the Avenity neighborhood, which I frequently go to.
03:11:48
I mean, there's not a lot of parking in the Avenity neighborhood
03:11:53
People love living there, and those townhouses are currently selling for $530,000, and they are not sitting.
03:12:04
For every unit you take away from this development, you're taking not just an affordable unit away, but you're taking away the developer.
03:12:19
It's a townhouse community.
03:12:20
They're going to be adjacent to each other.
03:12:23
Spreading them out is not solving the problem.
03:12:28
And I think they have a constraint with respect to stormwater.
03:12:32
And I'd rather see them keep the houses dense and really focus on the stormwater management, which I think they have an opportunity to do.
03:12:39
It sounds like they might even have an opportunity to fix the stormwater problems across this parcel while they're developing it.
03:12:47
Well, I mean, but I haven't done the engineering yet.
03:12:52
No, and they don't have to until they do the site plan.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:12:54
But we have to make some judgment calls on our loan.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:12:58
Any other?
03:13:01
I'm going to try to summarize and then we're going to take it to the vote.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:13:06
I mean, I think.
03:13:08
I'll just mention too that one of the big concerns I have too about is the connectivity.
03:13:14
And I think that there's a big difference between if this was a dense property with lots of townhomes and a clear walkable route to get somewhere,
03:13:25
or easy access to mass transit or something else, then I would feel differently about it.
03:13:32
But the way that it's contained in that block there makes it different for me.
03:13:38
There's a big difference between the townhomes and Old Trail.
03:13:42
There's a difference in how something that's accessible where you can walk to someplace versus something that's sort of isolated.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:13:57
All right, so I'm going to try to summarize what I've heard and feed into my own thoughts on this proposal.
03:14:12
This body here has been pretty consistent on more density.
03:14:16
I think we've actually asked on several proposals, can you add a floor?
03:14:22
Can you think about more townhouses?
03:14:25
Yes, townhouses are dense.
03:14:26
There's things that are even more dense in townhouses than we've asked for.
03:14:29
Because we realize the need for affordable housing, we realize the need to increase our housing stock here in Albemarle.
03:14:36
So all those comments that were made by the public, we agree with.
03:14:41
To me, it's a question of qualitative versus quantitative.
03:14:46
Quantitatively, this is six units per acre.
03:14:51
You can do the math, it's six units per acre.
03:14:54
Qualitatively, it's 14 units per acre in a very tight location that I think has little consideration for the neighbors.
03:15:06
And that is part of what we're struggling with here.
03:15:10
I would encourage the applicant, the staff to see if there's some way to free up that southern half.
03:15:17
That to me is much more conducive to the higher density.
03:15:21
It's actually adjacent to the townhomes that are along Colonial.
03:15:26
So to me, that would be a
03:15:29
more palatable way of looking at this, whether you're dividing it up or whether you put the density there and single families in the other.
03:15:35
I don't know, we're not going to design it here.
03:15:39
But we don't think, at least I don't think that this is an appropriate level of density in that one acre part, partial to the north.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:15:49
I think the applicant might want to say something else.
03:15:51
It's up to you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:15:55
If he's coming to, that's the only thing he can say.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
03:15:59
Well, I've heard some very thoughtful comments and
03:16:04
I certainly appreciate those.
03:16:05
So I would like to ask that we defer this so that I can make one more stab at some of these changes I've heard before you vote.
03:16:13
I can't promise you I will be able to get what something everyone asks, and maybe you all even vote for, but I'm happy to take another stab at it to try to address some of these concerns we've heard, to try to get an infill project that addresses some of these particular concerns.
03:16:28
I think if the commission would do that, I'd appreciate it, and we will come back to you
03:16:34
I work with the staff on trying to get some, maybe some tweaks that they can agree on.
03:16:38
We'll take that request to the commission.
Jennifer Tevendale
Deputy County Attorney
03:16:41
We would, if the applicant could clarify whether that deferral is to a specific date or if it is to an unknown date, it would need to be a non-specific deferral to a non-specific date.
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
03:16:58
probably can do to an indefinite date.
03:17:00
And since I don't, there's a couple of questions to achieve what's being asked.
03:17:03
I'm going to have to get some special approvals from VDOT, which is not impossible, but I could have to do that.
03:17:09
I don't know if that's going to take a week or a month or how long.
03:17:12
So I think we do a definite date.
03:17:13
And then when we have our staff and I come up to a solution that will come back.
03:17:19
That would be our preference too.
Jennifer Tevendale
Deputy County Attorney
03:17:20
And one last point of clarification for the record, is the applicant also requesting the deferral of the two waivers that were part of the rezoning proposal?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:17:31
Yes, please.
Jennifer Tevendale
Deputy County Attorney
03:17:33
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:17:34
Do I have a motion to accept the deferral?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:17:38
I move that we accept the deferral.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:17:41
Second.
03:17:43
Madam Clerk?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
03:17:46
Ms. King?
03:17:49
Aye.
03:17:49
Ms. Firehock?
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:17:52
Thank you.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
03:17:53
Ms. Firehock, I'm sorry, ma'am.
03:17:55
Aye.
03:17:56
Mr. Carrazana.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:17:58
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
03:17:58
Mr. Clayborne.
03:17:59
Aye.
03:18:00
Mr. Murray.
03:18:01
Aye.
03:18:01
And Mr. Moore.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:18:02
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
03:18:02
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:18:08
Okay, thank you.
03:18:09
We are moving on.
03:18:12
We are moving on to a five minute break.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
03:18:20
All right.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:18:22
All right.
03:18:24
We're back in order then.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:18:25
Please, we're back.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:18:27
Yes.
03:18:29
and let's see, moving on to CTA 2023-6, WPTA 2023-3, STA 2023-3, OTA 2024-2, riparian buffer protection standards.
03:18:59
All yours, staff.
Scott Clark
Conservation Program Manager
03:19:02
Thank you.
03:19:02
Good evening.
03:19:02
I'm Scott Clark.
03:19:03
I'm the Conservation Program Manager in Community Development.
03:19:07
We also have Mr. Frank Pohl, the County Engineer, and other members of staff here to answer your questions as we go through this.
03:19:15
This is a public hearing on an item that came out of the Stream Health Initiative, which is a county-wide or county project to develop strategies for improving local stream health.
03:19:25
Just as a reminder, that was an extensive community outreach project that involved multiple stakeholder work groups, vision setting, and development of a set of recommendations, which there were 14.
03:19:40
And the project you're seeing tonight is recommendation number one off of that list, which was for better protection of riparian buffers in the zoning ordinance.
03:19:49
Riparian buffer is an area of vegetation adjacent to a stream wetland reservoir or pond.
03:19:54
and the board adopted a resolution of intent to amend the zoning ordinance on this topic back in 2022.
03:20:02
So the scope of this project is largely about moving the current extent of regulations from the water protection ordinance to the zoning ordinance for the multiple purposes you see listed there to implement standards that protect buffer vegetation countywide rather than just in certain land disturbance projects.
03:20:23
and in fact to require buffer retention, whether or not a site has regulated land disturbance and keeping the current exemptions for agriculture and for forestry, although there are best management practices required for forestry.
03:20:39
So where are the buffers?
03:20:41
Again, the overall attempt here is to move the existing regulations from WPO to the zoning ordinance without major changes in what they affect.
03:20:53
So the current WPO buffer locations and the proposed zoning buffer locations are the same.
03:21:00
They're listed here in this table showing how the buffers are defined in development areas.
03:21:07
whether for development areas that are either in or not in a water supply watershed, how the buffers apply around public water supply impoundments, and then in all other locations, which is generally the remainder of the rural area.
03:21:23
One thing I just wanted to point out quickly from this is the distinction between the two kinds of development areas.
03:21:31
And again, this is
03:21:32
in the current WPO and would be the same in the proposed zoning standards that the top line there is for development areas that are not within a water supply watershed, which is nearly all of them.
03:21:47
And that is 400 foot buffers on perennial streams.
03:21:50
Second line in yellow there is development areas within a water supply watershed.
03:21:56
Present we have one of those, which is Crozet.
03:21:59
So there's actually a greater degree of stream protection in Crozet than there is for the other development areas.
03:22:08
Crozet has protection on the perennial streams and on intermittent streams and to the extent of the flood hazard overlay districts.
03:22:16
So that's significantly more protection in Crozet because it's in a water supply watershed.
03:22:22
It is true that structures can be permitted in the outer 50 feet along intermittent streams with a mitigation plan.
03:22:30
but otherwise there are still buffers on those intermittent streams.
03:22:34
There's been some confusion about that, so I just wanted to run through that quickly to explain.
03:22:41
So again, the current buffer regulations in the WPO regulate land disturbances of 10,000 square feet or more, but for disturbances of less than that or for just changes outside of a regulated project, there's no particular vegetation protection in that ordinance.
03:23:00
And it is true that new structures requiring building permits are not permitted to the buffers.
03:23:07
So this screen shows you the structure of the new proposed ordinance and all of the sections.
03:23:13
I mainly just wanted to point out the three sections in green, which is where the bulk of the regulations are.
03:23:19
So that's where I'm going to focus most of this presentation.
03:23:22
And then in yellow there, 42310 is a section that you haven't seen before.
03:23:26
that came up after the commission and board work sessions.
03:23:31
So we realized we needed to add a section for standards for special exceptions.
03:23:34
So that's, that's new.
03:23:36
It is reflected in the attachment that you received in the draft ordinance, but there was not included during the work session.
03:23:46
So what vegetation changes are permitted in the buffers?
03:23:50
Again, current regulations, they only affect projects with 10,000 square feet of disturbance.
03:23:57
That's elsewhere they don't apply.
03:23:58
Under the proposed ordinance, except for permitted uses, native vegetation in the buffers would have to be
03:24:08
kept, could not be disturbed or removed, whether or not there's a development project.
03:24:14
So this applies to all disturbances, not just those above 10,000 square feet.
03:24:18
And those buffer areas must be maintained in as natural a condition as possible.
03:24:24
So when I pointed out permitted uses there, I wanted to say that there are two kinds of permitted uses in this ordinance, some of which are by right and some of which are by administrator approval.
03:24:35
The buffer administrator would be the county engineer with a mitigation plan.
03:24:41
So in that first category, you can see there are quite a few uses starting with agriculture and forestry, utilities, water dependent facilities, et cetera.
03:24:50
The one thing I wanted to highlight here was after the Board of Supervisors work session, there was a question about how we were intending to regulate the removal of invasive vegetation by itself.
03:25:03
So not associated with a project, just as part of a landowner's land management.
03:25:08
And we were trying to hit a balance of permitting that without undue interference, but still having accurate oversight of that.
03:25:19
Currently what the draft requires is if a landowner is removing invasives or noxious weeds, they need buffer administrator approval, but not a formal plan review or approval of a plan.
03:25:32
So they might submit photographs, sketches, things like that, just to document the problem they have and get the administrators okay on that removal process.
03:25:44
We did consider simply making it a buy-write use without any kind of approval.
03:25:49
The issue there is for enforcement as you create a loophole where if someone removes a bunch of buffer vegetation that we can't document was native vegetation and they claim it to be invasives that were removed, we often won't be able to prove what happened.
03:26:07
So it's good to have this documentation in advance.
03:26:12
Next up, Section 8 relates to the permitted uses that can be approved with a mitigation plan.
03:26:21
These involve temporary E&S facilities, structures necessary for reasonable use of a lot, environmental restoration projects, there's a whole list there.
03:26:31
This list has not really changed since the version you saw before the work sessions.
03:26:39
I will point out stream crossings for road streets and driveways are included here.
03:26:46
So mitigation plans are required for that list of uses there in 423.9 there are standards and requirements for mitigation plans.
03:26:55
Currently, the draft says that
03:27:00
Disturbances and violations would have to be restored in a two to one ratio and otherwise one to one for permitted uses.
03:27:08
I'll come back to that in a couple more slides.
03:27:11
Plantings are required to be native species.
03:27:14
There's buffer vegetation has to be installed in line with the guidance that will be included in the design standards manual, which also makes reference to the statewide Virginia buffer restoration manual.
03:27:26
and bonds can be required until the plants are established to make sure that the mitigation is successful.
03:27:34
So here's the new section, 423.10, regarding special exceptions we realized in the drafting process that we needed to address this directly.
03:27:44
Special exceptions are only possible for the vegetation management standards and for the uses permitted by right or with mitigation plan.
03:27:53
and this is all written to be consistent with other recent sections addressing special exceptions for other uses.
03:28:00
Abutting landowners must be notified.
03:28:01
The administrator can require a water quality impact assessment in reviewing the request for special exception.
03:28:09
There are factors for the board to consider in their approval or denial of a special exception request and conditions and bonds can be applied.
03:28:23
So before I finish up, I want to mention a few things that we know we have ahead of us to do before this item goes to the Board of Supervisors for the public hearing with them.
03:28:35
First, we've received some feedback from other staff, especially in facilities and environmental services that we need to be more specific about the content of the site specific surveys that determine where the buffers are on a development site.
03:28:49
So we're planning to update the text for the design standards manual to cover the standards that must be used for determining water body types.
03:29:00
Perennial versus intermittent, and also the content of what must be on the plan for it to be accepted.
03:29:09
In addition to that, we know we need to update some of our references to the state and guidance documents on defining, for example, perennial streams, because there are more recent sources to use.
03:29:22
And I mentioned earlier that planting ratio for mitigation plans, we realized in
03:29:30
reviewing what we had written that with the intent to keep things the same as the WPO, we should have listed that as a two to one planting ratio for both permitted uses and for violation resolutions.
03:29:42
So we intend to write to change it back to that two to one for both before this goes to the board.
03:29:48
So stake in our part to make that change away from what the WPO requires.
03:29:57
So after that quick review, staff for the planning commission support these text amendments and recommend approval to the board.
03:30:06
We will be happy to take your questions before the public hearing.
03:30:10
And then after the hearing, I have a couple of draft motions for you to consider.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:30:21
OK. OK.
03:30:22
Questions for Seth?
03:30:24
Yes.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:30:24
Okay, so first of all, we talked about the exception for agriculture.
03:30:30
When someone asks for an agricultural exemption, how do we determine that that is a legitimate agricultural exemption?
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:30:40
So the exemption for the WPO currently is based on state law, the Right to Farm Act, and there's a pretty low bar to meet the ag exemption in it.
03:30:50
You have to
03:30:51
within a year, get rid of all the debris and fence it in.
03:30:58
Or you have to, well, I'm sorry, it's create pasture and fence it in, or just get rid of the debris.
03:31:06
And that's in the state law.
03:31:07
So we are challenged with that all the time.
03:31:12
So if you have an idea of how to make this easier, then I would be open for suggestions.
03:31:19
We do get complaints about ag activity and we go investigate and based on affidavits from the landowner we rely on that and that's what we base our decisions on.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:31:30
So we can't, this would be I guess for the county attorney, would we be able to ask any questions that we are currently asking for the land use validation program for example
03:31:41
ask them, you know, present a list of things to prove that they're agriculture like a schedule F or farm income or loss statement or any of the other things that we've verified as agriculture.
Jennifer Tevendale
Deputy County Attorney
03:31:56
We have limited legal authority to implement restrictive questions or things that we have to require for someone to prove they are
03:32:09
in the Farm to Right.
03:32:10
The Farm to Right Act is set out in state law and we staff does the best to go out and work with the landowners and ensure that the activities do meet that, but we are limited into what we can request and require.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:32:24
Can I ask a follow on to that, Lonnie?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
03:32:26
I know it's your turn, but it's the same.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:32:28
I know of a specific case, many years ago, Scott, he probably gives Scott nightmares, so I won't name the site, but the landowner said it was forestry and they were coming to the commission for a permit to develop the site.
03:32:43
But then I'm telling you that they felled trees in the buffer and then left them.
03:32:50
They never harvested that wood.
03:32:54
So how does that get handled?
03:32:56
You would take an affidavit and they would say, it's forestry.
03:33:00
So yeah, cut the trees for forestry, but it was fake.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:33:04
I can't speak to that specifically.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:33:06
I'm not asking you to like rule out this old scar that I carry with me, but more like if that happened in any other place, how would you handle that?
03:33:15
Like where they're not, I call it faux forestry.
03:33:19
They're just trying to clear the land without having to get a permit.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:33:26
We would consult our attorneys on that.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:33:29
Yeah, I didn't think you were going to be able to answer that.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:33:31
Because each situation is different and yes, if they're up here asking for something, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not forestry.
03:33:41
So we've seen projects where they're advertising a lot for sale, saying that they have a drain field and they've cleared and we've been, we've treated it as forestry.
03:33:53
Okay.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:33:54
Let's put it that way.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:33:55
I don't know if you had more.
03:33:56
Thank you.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:33:56
There are programs, I think, throughout the state where you can potentially apply land use.
03:34:02
And we've discussed that in the past when a previous director was here, present, but it hasn't been brought up since.
03:34:10
It would require some legislative action on our part to adopt those regulations, I believe, to be more in line, I think, with the Ches Bay Act, which would require these plans, which is something we discussed during the Stream Health Initiative.
03:34:25
but it was a larger step than what we were proposing to do with moving this into the zoning ordinance at that time.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:34:32
That's very helpful to know.
03:34:35
On a similar vein, it was mentioned that farm roads are exempt but there was a reference to another section of code that I was having difficulty finding it.
03:34:44
So what are our regulations regarding farm roads and whether those get grandfathered in in terms of being in stream buffers?
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:34:56
Farmers are considered an agricultural activity and are exempt.
03:35:01
We have a two year limitation for that activity from the time it was completed until potentially they bring in like a development that shows a road.
03:35:14
in that location or something that's not a road or an access way that wouldn't have been exempt to begin with.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:35:22
So I would just like to go on record.
03:35:24
I think two years is way too short of a time for that.
03:35:28
There should be a way longer period of time.
03:35:30
Because I mean, that's almost like the cost of doing business.
03:35:33
Somebody just come in, put in all the farm roads, and then turn around and call them and say, oh, they're already there on the buffer.
03:35:40
So I think that that's, I would strongly encourage us to look at expanding the length of time before those could be considered rose.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:35:49
If I can comment on that, I believe that's based on some time frames within state code, but I can double check that.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:35:57
Okay.
03:35:59
Yeah.
03:36:00
The other thing that was talked about were structures within the
03:36:05
And Scott had a slide a little while back about structures within the 50 feet of the 100 foot buffer within the water supply area and the development area.
03:36:18
A lot of things going on there.
03:36:21
is that automatic or is that something that would be approved under special circumstances?
03:36:28
Because I'm looking at older versions of the code and that was saying for only necessary for reasonably useful lot.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:36:40
Yes, so under, I think you're looking at 423.8 B2.
03:36:49
Correct.
03:36:50
So it's structures within the outer 50 feet and A states necessary supportive infrastructure to allow reasonable use and then located along the intermittent stream within a water supply protection development area.
03:37:05
So it's, this is currently what's in our ordinance.
03:37:13
So I don't think we've changed that.
03:37:16
It's basically for necessary for, excuse me, it's for a reasonable use.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:37:23
So I'm confused about and hear the way it's described with the comma.
03:37:28
It says structure is necessary for reasonable use of lot comma or development area structures on intermittent streams or water supply protection areas.
03:37:37
So I don't see that in older versions of the code here.
03:37:47
I'm just looking at
03:37:53
So is that a new policy?
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:37:57
No, I don't believe it's new.
03:37:59
I'm going to find it here in a second.
03:38:05
So we've always allowed the outer 50, if that's what you're talking about in development areas, for perennial streams, excuse me, intermittent streams.
03:38:13
That is a current allowance in the ordinance.
03:38:19
It's under 17.6.
03:38:20
It should be in your packet.
03:38:22
Yeah.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:38:23
and I will find that here in a second.
03:38:24
It's either page six or seven.
03:38:31
It's on page seven of your packet of the draft.
03:38:35
Under 604, it says repealed 17604A within the landward 50 horizontal feet.
03:38:48
So it has basically the same language.
03:38:52
Would be necessary for infrastructure to allow reasonable use of the lot or would be on a lot that is within a water supply protection area where the stream buffer protects an intermittent stream and allotted within a development area.
03:39:06
So that was, I wasn't here when this was written, but my understanding is that we increased the requirements within the development area
03:39:17
for, my head is, I'm sorry, we increased it when we're within a water protection area and there was a compromise to have a reduced buffer to at least have at least a 50 foot on intermittent streams.
03:39:46
for those areas when other areas we don't have buffers on intermittent stream.
03:39:50
So we considered it a higher standard is my understanding.
03:39:53
Even though it's a reduced, it's not 100 feet.
03:39:56
It's still providing some buffer.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:40:00
One thing I will say in defense of intermittent streams is they're like the capillaries in our blood.
03:40:10
You remove all the intermittent streams and you've effectively killed that stream.
03:40:16
The one thing that's really valuable if you look at Crozet, I know that some of the other development areas have really struggled to build Greenway networks.
03:40:24
One of the things that's really just noticed when you go to Crozet is that because we do have these areas with buffers around a lot of the streams, there are areas where we've been able to put a pretty extensive Greenway network throughout Crozet.
03:40:37
And I think if you look at the relative density of Crozet compared to other development areas, we're comparably dense to the other development areas.
03:40:45
and yet we have this nice greenway network that's made possible by the sake of having these buffers.
03:40:52
So, I mean, I'm all in favor of, you know, protecting our intermittent streams, air development areas, not water supply area or not.
03:41:04
You know, even if we have to do some engineering to make it happen.
03:41:08
The other thing,
03:41:13
that I had a question about was a big problem that we have in Crozet right now, because it mentions mitigation, is the tree tubes.
03:41:21
And I've seen several instances around the county where there's the plastic tree tubes that become litter in our waterways.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:41:27
Where they fall over and nobody comes to stand or tree up.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:41:31
And I realize this is in Charlottesville, I believe.
03:41:36
But around Fifth Street Station, you can still see like tree tubes all around the entrance of Fifth Street Station where they just left them there.
03:41:44
But over in Crozet, there's areas where there's been tree tubes scattered all over.
03:41:47
And it's just a huge, nasty project to remove them.
03:41:51
And it's just this pollution.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:41:52
and I don't know if... Yeah, they're to protect against deer browse, but they should be removed after a certain period of time and sometimes they're not.
03:41:59
Yeah.
03:42:00
Because it's somebody's bad management of a project.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:42:02
I mean, I would encourage there's talking about elsewhere about a bond that maybe that bond doesn't get released until the tree tubes are removed or that we require biodegradable tree tubes, which are a thing.
03:42:14
So and our standards are strongly considered.
03:42:17
We look at that because otherwise we're just polluting our waterways.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:42:26
You think I want to say something about the buffer orange?
03:42:31
I'm sorry, I'm being set up.
03:42:35
I'm really happy that we have a new buffer ordinance, or have it back, that was supposed to be, I think.
03:42:43
I have mentioned this, I have a little heartburn with the, I understand the, okay, what am I talking about?
03:42:52
K2, the removal of invasives and the fact that that is a change,
03:43:00
that the board I guess or someone I guess it's the board of supervisors is concerned that someone will be like oh I just mowed this all but it was all invasives you should have seen it man although I'm just trying to think about the practicality of this and I'll take my creek which I already mentioned to Mr. Pohl earlier it it is a weekly activity from spring and summer and fall to remove
03:43:27
Multiflora Rose, Japanese Stiltgrass, Japanese Honeysuckle, Autumn Olive, Privet, I could go on because it literally just springs back up.
03:43:36
Like I'm trying to imagine the process where I go to the county and I say, here's a picture of my invasive species that I'm going to pull by hand and have lots of natives in there.
03:43:45
My extreme bank used to be mowed completely from one side to the other, both sides.
03:43:50
It was a lawn.
03:43:51
Now it's a forest.
03:43:52
It looks pretty good.
03:43:53
But even so, because it's a creek,
03:43:56
and in the floods that we get frequently, all these invasives come back down or the seed stock is there.
03:44:02
So it's literally weekly activity.
03:44:03
I'm trying to imagine the sort of scenario where I say, here's my picture of all my invasive species, but like one's going to pop up over there.
03:44:12
And like, could I have some kind of permit called Karen's weekly invasive species permit?
03:44:17
I mean, because I just can't, it's just not practical.
03:44:20
that I would come back.
03:44:21
It's not going to be a project.
03:44:23
There's a beginning, a middle and an end.
03:44:25
And I'm not going to spray herbicides next to my creek.
03:44:29
That is a method I don't plan to use.
03:44:31
So it's all handwork.
03:44:33
So how in that scenario?
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:44:35
So I was thinking of your comment while I was sitting in the audience and maybe idea.
03:44:43
I came up with an idea of maybe moving this to the mitigation section and
03:44:51
and eliminating the reporting.
03:44:53
And then if there's a complaint, we can require at least still require mitigation.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:44:59
you know, it would be a quote by Wright, it could be a- Like if you've gone too far and my neighbors caught me cutting down the tulip poplars or the beach street.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:45:07
I mean, that could be, that's just something I thought of.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:45:10
I'm not doing that.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:45:11
I'm just saying, pretend.
03:45:12
All right.
03:45:12
So may I offer a suggestion?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
03:45:14
Yes.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:45:16
If you go in and all you do is clear the invasive vegetation,
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:45:22
Yeah, I'm not like, right, I'm not clearing the stream bank, but a whole, the length of this dais, the entire curve is, I took out Japanese honeysuckle.
03:45:33
Like, so it's not just like a spot necessarily.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:45:36
So from my experience, if you just remove the invasive species, you've only done half the job.
03:45:43
You need to go back and plant something native in its place.
03:45:47
So from what I would recommend from the perspective to staff is that
03:45:54
when they come, you know, if someone's been removing things out of the buffer that they say are invasive, they should also have a plan to be putting things back.
03:46:03
And I think that... Get that, but yes or no.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:46:05
At least not have a bear.
03:46:06
Yeah.
03:46:06
They should not have a...
03:46:08
I have planted red azure dogwood and basket willow and other natives, but I will point out that by not, the fact that I don't mow the stream bank as my predecessor owner of the property did,
03:46:20
I have all kinds of native trees popping up on their own.
03:46:24
The seed bank is there.
03:46:26
So I'm really just selectively taking out the invasives and allowing those natives to come up.
03:46:31
I don't have to plant to get that to happen.
03:46:35
It's like a mountain cove type stream.
03:46:38
It's very rich.
03:46:39
It's very wet.
03:46:40
But I have neighbors up.
03:46:41
There's another question I had about
03:46:45
the wording around was in one of Scott's earlier slides.
03:46:48
I'm sorry, I didn't write down which one, but it talked about not disturbing vegetation.
03:46:53
And there are people who are actively out there with their lawnmower, mowing down the stream bank upstream, but they can continue to do that because they're not changing the vegetation we currently have.
03:47:04
Right.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:47:06
The activity.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:47:07
That's the trick.
03:47:08
That's the problem.
03:47:09
Correct.
03:47:10
Yeah.
Scott Clark
Conservation Program Manager
03:47:11
Yeah, it's not written to require that everybody who has a non forested buffer area immediately run to the tree supply and plant it.
03:47:21
You have to keep what you have.
03:47:23
So it's not this ordinance isn't saying that if you've been mowing grass in the buffer, you have to stop.
03:47:30
Part of the concern whether if you only make people stop management, you just get more invasive.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:47:35
Right.
03:47:36
I'm glad you said that because when you had the last screen up I was thinking about it says plantings and management are two things that are allowed.
03:47:49
So if what you're doing is management by removing invasives, isn't that an allowed use?
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:47:57
It used to be that you could just remove your invasives and you don't have to get a permit to do that.
Scott Clark
Conservation Program Manager
03:48:05
We're still trying to avoid referring to this as a permit the way it's currently written.
03:48:10
I don't know exactly how this works, but it would be an informal approval and we would have documentation of what's there.
03:48:16
versus where do you fall on the documentation.
03:48:21
And if you don't require documentation from anybody, then it makes it possible for people who are doing intentional violations to claim that what they removed was all invasive.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:48:31
Right.
03:48:31
And I know this is not a public hearing about Karen Firehock's stream reach.
03:48:38
But I would
03:48:41
I think I'm a good example of someone who might be trying to do something.
03:48:45
So maybe there's a, here's a photo of my stream, here's a diagram, here's a list of all the native trees and whatnot that are here.
03:48:54
And here's closeups of the naughty bad things I'm taking out.
03:49:00
But that we don't redo this on a weekly basis.
03:49:03
So I'm just trying, I don't mind documenting something.
03:49:06
I'm just trying to get away from like,
03:49:09
the reality of what you have to do with streams in this environment is humid subtropical.
03:49:16
That is what this environment is classified as.
03:49:19
Stuff grows fast, especially the weeds.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:49:22
So I want to say I like the previous version of this better, which was more in line with our original ordinance, which says that if buffer didn't exist, you had to allow it to establish.
03:49:36
And so
03:49:39
so that this is still a reduction of what we had in 2014.
03:49:45
We said that effectively if you had been mowing the buffer, you need to stop mowing the buffer.
03:49:49
I think what was proposed last time was that they could mow it like twice a year or something or mow it during certain seasons.
03:49:59
but which would be fine with me like if you're saying like okay we mowing and mowing in winter or like twice a year is fine but like it shouldn't be mowed lawn because mowed lawn is a source of pollution based upon the Chesapeake Bay model so as long as we're allowing mowed lawn you know next to streams that that is a major source of impairment for the Chesapeake Bay
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:50:25
I think there was a concern about grandfathering, and when you adopt a zoning ordinance, everything that's been done beforehand cannot, is not under that new regulation.
03:50:36
Unless I'm mistaken, but... No, you are correct.
Jennifer Tevendale
Deputy County Attorney
03:50:38
We are having to account for the nonconformities that are going to be in existence when this gets moved to the zoning ordinance.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:50:47
I'm glad you said that because that was my question and my concern.
03:50:50
Being new, maybe someone could help me understand
03:50:56
Karen is not our concern.
03:51:02
this is clearly in play for developments like people who are trying to use a workaround when they're developing, right?
03:51:11
So I'm assuming that's what we're trying to catch.
03:51:14
That's the loophole that we're trying to fill.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:51:17
Or it could be somebody just like I see along the rockfish people will neaten up the stream and they will cut down a lot of stuff and just leave a few trees.
03:51:26
So that in this ordinance that would not be allowed if they hadn't done it before, right?
03:51:32
So there's just people recreationally doing stuff in the buffer.
03:51:36
They're not necessarily a developer.
03:51:38
And that's who we're trying to get with.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:51:43
Correct.
03:51:43
Yeah, I think it's not as much development.
03:51:46
It's after the person moves into the house, right?
03:51:49
And the developer or the home builder kept the buffer, and the home builder says, I want a yard.
03:51:54
and then they, not the home builder, the homeowner says they want that their yard extended.
03:52:00
This is an example.
03:52:01
This is a this happened.
03:52:02
So so in that situation, under their current ordinance, it fell under the 10,000 square foot threshold.
03:52:11
But it would not in this one.
03:52:13
So it's I think it's more focused on the smaller activities.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:52:20
What's a water facility, a water
03:52:25
dependent facility.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:52:28
Like a stormwater pond or a bio-builder.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:52:30
Or something like a canoe ramp or something.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:52:39
So what would be some triggers the county would use to enforce this?
03:52:45
I mean, have you thought about like, for example, if there's a building permit that's issued on a property or a rezoning or a special use permit, will efforts be made to then check to make sure that this is in compliance with the buffers and compliance?
03:53:04
Since we have an opportunity, if someone's building a new structure, they're adding an addition.
03:53:09
At that time, would we have authority to require planting of the buffer?
03:53:14
Or would we say if it was grass before, it would still remain grass?
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:53:18
I believe if it's grass, it falls under the non-conforming uses.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:53:24
Even though there'd be new sediment disturbance on the site.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:53:29
Yes, we would address that through the regulations, the VESMP regulations to control the sediment.
03:53:37
But for the buffer and the ordinance, for the activity that's there already, I believe
03:53:42
Our attorney can confirm, but that's a nonconforming activity.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:53:47
Yeah, but we used to have, I mean, one of the things that concerns me a little bit is that we used to have the buffer.
03:53:53
We had the buffers as part of our origins and sediment control, which I think there's merit in having them in both places in the sense that you want to maintain protection of the buffers during land disturbance.
03:54:08
but then you also want to maintain buffers on an ongoing basis, which is sort of why we've moved to the zoning.
03:54:16
But I'm a little concerned in moving to the zoning, we may lose the importance of the process that happens during development and protection of the buffers during the development process.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:54:27
I would like to add, if they do show disturbance in that area, then it would fall under the regulations, right?
03:54:33
But if they stayed outside of that area,
03:54:37
then it wouldn't be included with that application, so to speak.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:54:40
And they're required to show those buffers on the plan.
03:54:44
Correct.
03:54:45
Yeah.
03:54:45
Every single time, no matter where they're building.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:54:48
Well, there is an exclusion for like rural area lots to not have to, they would still show the buffer, but they wouldn't necessarily have to serve it.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:54:58
Okay.
03:55:00
But yeah, and then there's the whole thing about agriculture and they don't have to maintain a hundred feet, right?
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:55:07
I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last one.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:55:08
I'm sorry, agricultural activity.
03:55:11
If I have a corn field, I'm farming it.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:55:14
Correct.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:55:14
I do not need to maintain the hundred foot.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:55:17
Correct.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:55:18
It's something like 30 feet.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:55:20
There's not even that.
03:55:21
Not even that, okay.
03:55:22
In Albemarle County, correct.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:55:24
Right.
03:55:24
And so it would be our basis of determining, will we just, will we base the land cover map as the basis of whether it used to be buffers there or not?
03:55:32
Or what would be your basis of determining buffers were removed?
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:55:36
What's our basis for determining if bus buffers have been removed?
03:55:41
One, complaints.
03:55:44
Things can be complaint driven.
03:55:46
We would use aerials.
03:55:48
And that's really the limit of what we have in terms of resources to determine
03:55:55
make that determination.
Scott Clark
Conservation Program Manager
03:55:56
We do also have aerial photos roughly every two years from the state and at other intervals from other providers.
03:56:03
So we can document, you know, we often can't document something that changed in the last month.
03:56:08
We can say, we can see what was there a year ago or two years ago.
03:56:11
So we have some degree of information, but documenting day by day vegetation in the buffers is not practical.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:56:22
I have a question about the actual boundary of the riparian buffer.
03:56:29
So it states in here a couple times, I just want to make sure I understand it, that
03:56:34
and from the chart, which is a little bit confusing, that it overlays with the 100-year floodplain, except when it doesn't, it's 100 foot.
03:56:44
Am I saying that right?
03:56:46
So it's 100 feet from either side of perennial stream or intermittent stream or any waterway, unless there's a floodplain and then it's the larger of the two.
03:56:57
Is that correct?
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
03:56:59
Intermittent was only for water supply watersheds.
Scott Clark
Conservation Program Manager
03:57:04
So in a development area that's not in the water supply watershed, floodplains are not relevant.
03:57:11
It's just 100 feet.
03:57:13
In all of the other portions of the county, if there is flood hazard overlay, the 100-year floodplain, then that's the limit of the buffer.
03:57:26
If there isn't, then it's just calculated based on whether it's an intermittent or perennial stream.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:57:35
OK.
03:57:37
So I guess one of the reasons I'm asking this question is when we're talking about the floodplain and you have a deep ditch with a waterway, right?
03:57:50
Like the floodplain is not going to be wide at that area, but you're going to have more runoff, right?
03:57:55
So like if it's, sorry, if it's a steep slope on a waterway, but we're only buffering
03:58:05
small area, you're still, that area is still important to the runoff.
Scott Clark
Conservation Program Manager
03:58:11
Does that make sense?
03:58:12
The floodplain boundaries in this case are not just the, they're the FEMA mapped boundaries for 100-year floodplains.
03:58:20
So even our deeply incised streams, which we have a lot of, tend to have, where they have floodplain, that tends to be an extensive area beyond the banks of that deeply incised stream.
03:58:31
So it often is
03:58:34
quite a bit larger area than just the 100 feet where there is FEMA floodplain.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
03:58:39
And if the floodplain is only 50 feet wide, the buffer would still be 100 feet.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
03:58:44
That makes sense.
03:58:45
That's why that OK, that's what I was trying to get to.
03:58:48
It's whichever is greater, whichever is greater.
03:58:50
That's what I understood.
03:58:51
OK.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
03:58:53
I recommend that we go to the public hearing.
03:58:56
We'll have time to if we have any other.
03:58:58
So with that, I'll open to public hearing.
03:59:05
We have a couple names that have down here, Joseph Rames and Lisa Widenborn.
03:59:17
State your name, location where you live, and you have three minutes.
SPEAKER_08
03:59:23
I'm Joseph Rames.
03:59:24
I live in 2835 Penny Lane, which is in the vicinity of the Rivanna Rifle and Pistol Club on Old Lynchburg Road.
03:59:32
I'm here on behalf of the
03:59:35
excuse me, National Heritage Committee.
03:59:38
I'm going to read a letter that was drafted by our vice chair, Christine Putnam, and it was amended, voted on, and approved by the entire committee.
03:59:48
On behalf of the Natural Heritage Committee, I wish to share the committee's support for the riparian buffer protection standards before you on February 10th.
03:59:58
The NHC wishes to acknowledge and commend the substantial effort and dedication demonstrated by county staff in preparing the draft ordinance.
04:00:08
The NHC applauds the county's commitment to advancing this ordinance as an important step towards strengthening watershed protection and enhancing climate resiliency.
04:00:19
Repairing buffers play a crucial role in bolstering flood resiliency, safeguarding water quality, and maintaining natural habitats and wildlife corridors throughout the county.
04:00:32
The NHC expresses its strong support for the adoption of these standards.
04:00:39
While the proposed measures may not address every possible impact or land use scenario, they represent significant and meaningful progress.
04:00:49
We appreciate the incremental improvements these standards will bring, contributing to the increased protection of the county's vital water resources.
04:00:58
The NHC encourages the county to allocate sufficient staff resources to ensure effective enforcement of the repairing and buffer protection standards.
04:01:09
The effectiveness and impact of these regulations depend greatly on their enforceability, which requires sustained and dedicated staffing.
04:01:18
In addition, education and outreach will be
04:01:21
key in helping landowners understand and appreciate the standards.
04:01:26
The committee also supports continued progress on other proposals within the stream health initiative that have received board endorsements, specifically proposal number six, land conservation for water quality and proposal number seven, riparian conservation assistance program would provide further and permanent protections for riparian buffers.
04:01:50
Thank you for the opportunity to provide the NHC's comments on this important matter, respectfully submitted.
04:01:57
Christine Putnam, Vice Chair.
04:01:59
Thank you, folks.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:02:01
Thank you.
04:02:04
Lisa Wittenberg.
SPEAKER_18
04:02:10
Hi, thank you so much for the opportunity to speak with you tonight.
04:02:13
My name is Lisa Wittenborn.
04:02:14
I live in the Jack Jewett District.
04:02:17
I have riparian buffers on my rural Albemarle County buffer, and I'm also the executive director of the Rivanna Conservation Alliance, so I'm wearing a lot of hats here tonight.
04:02:26
I also was part of the Stream Health Initiative, and I'm really excited to see this finally taking place in the county.
04:02:34
Through my organization's extensive water quality monitoring work, I've seen firsthand the incredible difference that riparian buffers make for the health of a stream.
04:02:44
I believe that better protecting existing buffers and establishing new ones are two of the most effective and cost effective ways that we can improve water quality throughout the county.
04:02:55
Because of this, I'm here to urge you to adopt these new standards, or not adopt them, but recommend them to the Board of Supervisors.
04:03:03
But I do have a few requests.
04:03:06
First, I want to call attention to the fact that there are streams that are missing buffers in the county's GIS layer.
04:03:13
which is presumably where property owners will look to see if they need to pay attention to these new standards.
04:03:19
As a person who spends a lot of time looking at the county's GIS buffer layer and looking at streams in real life, I have seen many instances where this is the case.
04:03:29
New performance standards will not make any difference if they are not applied where they are needed.
04:03:34
I want you to encourage the Board of Supervisors to invest in efforts to update the county's stream data to ensure that all streams are protected by these buffers.
04:03:44
Second, I'm concerned about what appears to be this requirement for county residents to seek approval from the riparian buffer administrator before they can remove invasive plants from their buffers.
04:03:56
This seems to be extremely onerous.
04:03:58
and for the county and for residents and a significant deterrent to people doing this critical work which is needed to protect the integrity and function of our existing buffers and also prepare sites for new buffer plantings.
04:04:12
I don't want to create a loophole, but please make this process very simple for property owners.
04:04:19
Third, I think we all appreciate that no rule or regulation means much if it's not effectively implemented and enforced.
04:04:25
I understand that this new approach is meant to help reduce these burdens, but getting the word out about the new standards, providing guidance to property owners, and administering this new approach effectively will require a lot of investment by the county.
04:04:39
Please urge the Board of Supervisors to allocate sufficient resources to ensure it can succeed.
04:04:45
Our streams and rivers depend on that.
04:04:47
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:04:49
Thank you.
04:04:51
Is there anyone else like to speak?
SPEAKER_33
04:05:00
Hi, I'm Rob McGinnis with the Piedmont Environmental Council.
04:05:04
I had prepared remarks, but it's getting late.
04:05:06
And I've also sent everybody a letter.
04:05:08
So you've seen, I believe, I hope you've read those comments.
04:05:13
Again, PEC strongly supports this ordinance.
04:05:17
It's not perfect.
04:05:19
But I believe between now and the time that the board has a public hearing, we've already heard some changes that might need to be made and there may be others as well.
04:05:29
So I encourage that dialogue to continue and to recommend to the board that they approve this ordinance.
04:05:36
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:05:38
Thank you.
04:05:39
Anyone else like to speak to this matter?
04:05:43
Anyone on?
04:05:45
Hearing none, we'll close the public hearing.
04:05:49
Bring it back to the dais for any further comments.
04:05:52
I mean, I just, the GIS update is a question that I would pose.
04:05:58
I know that there's a number of updates that we've been talking about, this being one of them, and just love to get an update on that.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
04:06:07
I don't really have an update on the actual, that specific request, but when we receive applications, we
04:06:15
If we see an indication of streams on a property and they're not showing them, we will ask them to show streams even if it's not on GIS map.
04:06:23
So for instance, Holly Hills, which is north of, and the Brookhill, it's shown on our map as being in the development area and not having a buffer, meaning it was assumed it was intermittent.
04:06:35
But all of those streams have buffers on them and it's shown on those plans as perennial streams.
04:06:40
So our maps aren't perfect.
04:06:42
Staff tries its hardest.
04:06:44
to catch a Dern review and make the corrections.
04:06:48
And we work with our GIS staff to get those updates.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:06:51
So right now it's only happening incrementally as you get applications in.
04:06:56
Correct.
04:06:57
So there are resources out there that I know that we can layer into our systems to look to update that and I can, Lonnie, you may have some offhand.
04:07:08
If not, I know I can go back in my office and Helen Wilson, who's a landscape architect for the university and there's, I know there's resources within the university and probably within the state,
04:07:20
Ms. Firehock may know of some as well that she can give you right now.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:07:24
And TCR has a stream map as well that we should also be concerned, but it's not perfect either.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
04:07:28
Yeah, I was going to say that we use both of those maps and our GIS group created a bar tool that compares them side by side so we can try to catch things.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:07:41
Nice.
04:07:42
Okay.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:07:43
There's a project called the Virginia Forest Plan that was authorized by the legislature of Virginia.
04:07:52
And new land cover has been mapped for the whole state at very high resolution.
04:07:57
And it's through the Department of Forestry, so they're obviously really interested in how forested are our streams in Virginia.
04:08:05
So that data is supposed to be coming soon and have good information on
04:08:10
for us a long stream.
04:08:12
So we're trying to find out from the state if we can get access to that so that a county like Albemarle could use that taxpayer supported data to actually improve what we have here.
04:08:25
So I'm tracking that and hope to be successful in obtaining that.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:08:32
Yeah, I'd love to see a GIS analysis of how many streams, how buffered are existing streams?
04:08:38
And that is a doable thing.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:08:40
I would just like to make a quick comment about the housing affordability piece.
04:08:51
I think there certainly can be, this won't be the norm, but there certainly can be instances where a piece of property cannot be developed unless there's significant disturbance of some type of buffer area.
04:09:04
I know that's mentioned in here as one of the exceptions at times.
04:09:10
but what my real experience has been sort of something that was mentioned earlier where the property, this was a larger property, was being developed for a single residential use and the builder, you know, put in a farm road before they applied for the building permit basically, right, so that they didn't have to build, you know, years ago and
04:09:41
I think.
04:09:44
The reason for that is because there's a trigger for the mitigation cost to be prohibitive to the project.
04:09:53
So while we want people to do the right thing and apply for mitigation, I think we just need to be cognizant of how much money that adds to the project when it comes to housing affordability.
04:10:05
So there's a balance there.
04:10:06
And I noted that the proposal says that there's no impact on housing affordability, but I can certainly see cases where there would be.
04:10:14
That example wasn't one, but it's just an example of where I know they've found workarounds before, which is why we're changing it, right?
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
04:10:26
I'm not sure if you want me to address something there or?
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:10:29
No, it's just a comment.
Frank Pohl
County Engineer
04:10:32
Okay, thank you.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:10:32
I'll just make a note that when we had our, so we have a pre-meeting with the chair and the vice chair and staff just to prepare for the each meeting and we did talk about that there are, we're very fortunate time in Virginia that James River Association and other organizations have a lot of money
04:10:51
to provide free buffer planting and actually maintain it, take care of it, establish it.
04:10:58
So our county, as we roll this out, will hopefully endeavor to let people know like, hey, there's this new rules, but did you also know there's all this free help that you can get where someone will come out and help you plant?
04:11:12
My neighbors took advantage of it.
04:11:13
They planted the heck out of their buffers.
04:11:16
They were just mowed before.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
04:11:18
with cows in the creek.
04:11:19
Now the cows are out.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:11:20
So yeah, there's a lot of resources available.
04:11:24
There's never been a better time, I think.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:11:27
Well, I'll just add a little anecdote here.
04:11:29
There's years ago, I was talking to a former city councilor and she was telling me when she was running for office, she was going through the city of Charlottesville and she was asking people, you know, what would you like, what can I do?
04:11:42
What would you like to see?
04:11:43
And she ran across some children in Charlottesville and she asked them to say, you know, is there anything you would like to see?
04:11:50
And this was from a lower income part of Charlottesville, kind of near where I work.
04:11:55
and they said, well, what we really wish we had was a stream we could play in.
04:12:02
And I thought that was a really striking statement because clearly they're probably, actually I know for a fact, there were streams in that area where those kids were, but they're all under concrete now.
04:12:12
And so, you know, stream protection and equity go hand in hand.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:12:22
Okay, well I think as was stated by the public, it's not perfect but I think it's a good approach and you're moving in the right direction and you've heard some more comments that certainly can be incorporated before you go to the Board of Visitors.
04:12:43
Sorry.
04:12:44
It's a long day and I'm wearing marring hats.
04:12:48
The Board of Supervisors, you don't have to go to the, thank goodness, but we don't even know who that is.
04:13:00
You can strike that.
04:13:05
All right.
04:13:07
With that, we'll close the public hearing and we'll go to committee reports.
Jennifer Tevendale
Deputy County Attorney
04:13:13
Do we have a motion on the proposed ordinance?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:13:17
Yes.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
04:13:20
A vote?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:13:21
Yes.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
04:13:22
Go right ahead.
04:13:22
Somebody needs to do the motion.
04:13:23
Did somebody do it and I didn't hear it?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:13:25
Nobody's done a motion yet.
04:13:26
We're waiting.
04:13:27
You want to do it?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:13:28
I guess I'll do it.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:13:29
You're the expert.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:13:30
We have the, okay, there we go.
04:13:32
I move to recommend approval of the ordinance text amendments for apparent buffer protection standards as presented by staff.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:13:38
Second.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
04:13:42
Now I'll take the vote.
04:13:44
Mr. Moore?
04:13:45
No, I don't have a second.
04:13:45
I don't have a second yet.
04:13:46
I'll second.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:13:48
Okay.
04:13:49
No further, no further.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:13:50
I just wanted to make my little comment that I'm counting on Mr. Pohl and others to
04:13:59
If they do keep the process that you have to get a permit for work on invasive removal, that it's a simple process and can allow for ongoing continued work.
04:14:11
They don't want to see me every weekend there with my little applications.
04:14:17
Anyway, I just want to make sure that we make it easy.
04:14:20
And that was also a comment from some of the public that we want to not have a barrier to doing the right thing that we want to see done.
04:14:28
So that's it, just for the record.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
04:14:32
Mr. Moore?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
04:14:33
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
04:14:34
Mr. Murray?
04:14:35
Aye.
04:14:35
Mr. Clayborne?
Justin Shimp
Founder and Principal Engineer
04:14:36
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
04:14:37
Mr. Carrazana?
04:14:38
Aye.
04:14:38
Ms. Firehock?
04:14:39
Aye.
04:14:40
Ms. King?
04:14:41
Aye.
04:14:41
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:14:43
All right, thank you very much.
04:14:48
And now we'll move on to committee reports.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:14:54
I'll do a quick report from CTAC MPO.
04:14:57
That's the Citizens Transportation Advisory Committee.
04:14:59
The report there is that CTAC continues to kind of talk through what it is and should be and could become and whether it needs to be.
04:15:10
and in what form.
04:15:11
There's a few scenarios that we talked about.
04:15:13
So there's only four sort of active CTACs out of about 10, 15 rather in the state.
04:15:23
And we are by far the smallest.
04:15:25
And so a number of the CTAC members have been like, what are we actually doing at some of these meetings and kind of having a hard time filling up an agenda except with presentations.
04:15:34
We also have the tech committee, which is another thing.
04:15:36
C-TAC is wondering do we just you know basically meet monthly during on years when we're doing a long-range plan or and then just maybe an annual check-in during off years do we actually continue what we're doing and shift to more of a
04:15:50
public outreach and engagement type operation or just conclude as a formal committee because there's so many other local citizen advisory channels and avenues that are out there.
04:16:01
I think the opinions differ as far as members go, but I think shifting a little bit more away from continuing to just meet for the sake of meeting.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:16:16
Any other committee reports?
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:16:18
I just question, is that something like that the board has to decide that we, that there's a CTAC for us to, our county to participate in or?
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:16:27
Ultimately, that's the Metropolitan Planning Organization.
04:16:30
I think the city and county would both kind of have to say, well, let's hang it up.
04:16:34
I think ultimately we're a committee of the tech committee.
04:16:37
Right.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
04:16:37
So I know it's a little odd.
04:16:40
Yeah.
04:16:40
Okay.
04:16:40
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:16:43
Anyone else?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:16:44
Yeah, and so on Tuesday, February 3rd, there's all the virtual meeting of the MPO Tech Committee, where we discussed SmartScale around seven project locations and submitted a letter of support.
04:17:03
And then we also had a presentation about travel demand, the travel demand model demographics.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:17:13
Is the Fifth Street improvements across 64, is that coming back?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:17:22
I'll have to pull that up specifically.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:17:25
The question, I'm sorry, was about the improvements from Smartscale.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:17:28
I think it is.
04:17:29
Is that coming back?
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:17:31
Across 64.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:17:32
Coming back, meaning it was taken out, right?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:17:38
There's a smart scale application for Fifth Street and the idea of improving the interchange.
04:17:45
Right now, BDOT's considering a DDI there and using the existing sidewalk that's on the bridge or that amount of width for a sidewalk that would be bicycles going across.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:17:58
So they've changed, they had an application before that they pulled.
04:18:02
That's why I said coming back, which was to basically expand the
04:18:07
the bridge, it wound up being like over a hundred million dollars.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:18:09
Exactly.
04:18:10
So they're trying to use the existing structure and not widen it.
04:18:15
We're looking at an alternative for bike connections to that part of town across the interstate, which would basically go from Fifth Street running along the north side of 64 to get to Old Lynchburg and then tie into the neighborhood under Old Lynchburg.
04:18:32
Thank you.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:18:34
Any others?
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:18:36
The CAC, the 5th and Avon CAC met on January the 15th and we didn't have any public hearings or public meetings but we had, they did want to hear
04:18:49
my version of the why we voted the way we did for fill the floodplain.
04:18:56
So because that it's obviously in our district.
04:19:01
So anyway, I kind of explained all the different arguments to them.
04:19:05
And I also had the fun of seeing Mr. Missel in his supervisor role.
04:19:12
So that was fun.
04:19:14
That's it.
04:19:15
And then the Historic Preservation Committee did not meet because
04:19:19
I think it was weather, but it's all blur now.
04:19:21
I feel like we were sequestered in our homes for so long with my brain is frozen.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:19:26
All right.
04:19:33
On the January 14th Board of Supervisors meeting,
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:19:38
Yes sir, there's been three meetings since we last met.
04:19:42
On January 14th, two items of concern that came to the Planning Commission.
04:19:48
The first was you will call Flo Honda on 29.
04:19:52
I came in for an outdoor display.
04:19:56
That was approved by the board.
04:19:57
The same night they did consider the woolen mills fill the floodplain application.
04:20:04
Long discussion, it was a vote of four to two to recommend approval for the project.
04:20:12
January 21st, there were three items of interest.
04:20:16
The first was the build-out analysis update and AC44 analysis tool.
04:20:21
That was what you all reviewed on December 9th.
04:20:25
There was another request by
04:20:29
Mr. Wood.
04:20:31
It's called the Holly Hills sewer line extension request, but it's really not the Holly.
04:20:37
It's up on 29 North.
04:20:40
You know, between Forest Lake South and Hollymeade, there's the Holly Hills subdivision, if you'll recall.
04:20:49
You saw that two years ago.
04:20:51
I think it got approved.
04:20:52
It's under construction.
04:20:53
This is to extend sewer line up under 29 to serve some of the properties that are on the west side of 29, but south of Hollymeade Town Center.
04:21:09
The other one was the special use permit that you all reviewed for the Northridge Preschool.
04:21:14
That was the church, North GE Finnick.
04:21:19
That was passed as well.
04:21:22
Finally, on February 4th, we had two items.
04:21:25
The first was the rezoning.
04:21:27
It was called Three Notch Trail.
04:21:28
You would call it was a habitat house that was on 240 just to the west of
04:21:39
the Three Dots Brewing one.
04:21:43
It was a very, you almost forget about it.
04:21:45
It was a single family house that they were tearing down to put to, that Habitat was going to put in new units right there on 240.
04:21:54
So that got approved as well.
04:21:57
And the final thing that the board took up on the fourth was the Funk Brothers SP for the artisan use out in, across from Rivanna Village.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:22:11
They passed that as an artisan.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:22:14
Yes, that passed as well.
04:22:16
So that's my report for those three meetings.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:22:20
Very good.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:22:22
Any new business?
04:22:25
Yes, we do have some old business.
04:22:28
So hopefully you've all looked at and have selected the committees that you would like to
04:22:35
to attend.
04:22:37
I'm going to, so since we don't do not have a Scottsville district representative at the moment, I will, I will take that as the at-large.
04:22:50
And I know that some of it is that there's some joint always meet jointly.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:22:56
And so I have been trying to, if there's
04:22:59
My idea is if there's something that's on the other side, not my district, but Scottsville, I will just tell them about whatever is happening in that.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:23:07
And it's the same thing in Pentoff, but I figure that we can at least cover.
04:23:11
So if, you know, like if Corey can't make a Pentops, maybe I can, or if you're not going to be able to make them,
04:23:17
we can cover and I don't believe that it's the only one that represents Rivanna, although I know that the village of Rivanna is, are they even still meeting?
04:23:27
I thought they were...
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:23:28
They do not have any members that have applied for the CAC there that I'm aware of.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:23:34
No, I don't know what you want to do with that, Michael.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:23:37
It's still listed in the committee.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:23:38
It's still listed.
04:23:39
That's why I bring it up.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:23:43
Correct.
04:23:43
Yeah.
04:23:44
They have vacancies, so people could apply and they could reform, but they haven't.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:23:48
Let's do this.
04:23:52
I'm sure we will eventually get a commissioner.
04:23:55
We can appoint them to that spot.
04:23:57
And then if they have a meeting, our end of the business will be done.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:24:00
Okay.
04:24:01
And then the other one that's similar to that is it's a University of Virginia master planning committee that really hasn't met in a while.
04:24:08
And I'm not sure that it's.
04:24:10
I mean, it's almost like agenda specific.
04:24:13
If there is a particular major master plan, it might go to that committee, but it hasn't met in a while.
04:24:18
And I think right now, most of that is going to the loop back.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:24:23
I didn't, I'm sorry, I didn't wear that.
04:24:26
But if that's the case, then we should like... Yeah, just letting you know that.
04:24:29
I'm not sure whether this needs to be on our list of committees.
04:24:33
Let me do a little bit more.
04:24:35
We can talk a little bit offline.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:24:36
I can learn a little bit more about that.
04:24:38
But obviously with the loopback, we probably should... Loopback, we need it.
04:24:43
I know that Commissioner Moore had asked
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:24:47
Well, yeah, I've done the CTEC liaison for a couple of years and it's sort of gnashing at the teeth right now about whether it continues.
04:24:54
I think I'd like to maybe step off CTEC and step onto LUPEC as a rep this year if that's all right by you all.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:25:03
Sounds like a better use of your time, maybe.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:25:05
I hope so.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:25:06
Yeah, hope spring to turn over.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:25:11
What is CTEC?
04:25:12
Sorry.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:25:13
That's the Citizens Transportation Advisory Committee.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:25:15
So it's the citizens versus the MPO.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:25:18
Well, both are MPO, but it's, yeah, citizens input versus tech.
04:25:22
So Lonnie's on the tech, I've been on the citizens one.
04:25:25
It's still part of the MPO.
04:25:26
It's all part of the MPO.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:25:27
It's the committee of the MPO.
04:25:29
We've had to serve on both.
04:25:32
Okay.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:25:32
You want it?
04:25:34
Yeah.
04:25:35
You can help decide whether it continues.
04:25:38
Can I help decide?
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:25:39
Who are you talking to me?
04:25:43
How often?
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:25:43
Every other month.
04:25:45
Huh?
04:25:45
Every other month.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:25:46
Every other month?
04:25:47
Okay.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:25:49
Got it.
04:25:50
I think that covers us.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
04:25:53
No, I need something.
04:25:57
Did I miss land use?
04:25:58
That one not meeting anymore.
04:26:01
The land use and environmental planning.
04:26:03
That's the one that I volunteered for.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:26:06
Nathan's got that.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:26:07
That's my spot.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:26:08
And I apologize, the KTAC one, KTAC, C-TAC.
04:26:18
Okay, fantastic, thank you.
04:26:20
We're going to love it.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:26:22
If I could make a suggestion, Mr. Barnes?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:26:25
Yes, sir.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:26:26
I would suggest, you know, back in the day, and Karen remembers this, the National Heritage Committee had a representative from the Planning Commission, and as we look to doing the rural area plan, that becomes a priority again, I think it would make sense to re-establish a Planning Commission member as a representative to the National Heritage Committee.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:26:50
There was one and then the board decided we didn't need to have one.
04:26:56
So it's kind of strange.
04:26:59
I've had mixed messages from our leaders on whether they want that.
04:27:05
I think it would be very valid.
04:27:06
I'm not disagreeing.
04:27:07
I'm just saying that's why there's been this kind of we had one then
04:27:11
They're like, no, we don't need one anymore.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:27:13
May I offer a suggestion?
04:27:18
Obviously, I want to figure out exactly what's going on with the UVA Master Planning Committee.
04:27:23
Let me find out a little bit more about this, and then I can come back to you all on those two questions.
04:27:28
Those two committees are outstanding.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:27:30
Great.
04:27:30
Thanks.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:27:34
OK.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:27:35
And I guess I have a quick guess since we're going in the weeds here, just for a sec.
04:27:41
The acquisition of conservation easements committee, that's kind of, it's dormant because the whole thing is dormant.
04:27:49
I guess I'm, is there some move, I mean, we talked about that in the comprehensive plan about bringing it back.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:27:56
To be precise, there's the ACE committee.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:27:58
Yeah.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:27:59
And then there's the Albemarle easements,
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:28:04
I'm talking about ACE.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:28:06
ACE.
04:28:06
Yeah, at this point, it not being a funded program, they're not meeting.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:28:12
OK. Yeah, all right.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:28:15
Just say the UVA Master Planning Council, at least on its public website, last has meeting notes from 2022.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:28:22
But that's my point.
04:28:28
And I don't, there's no forthcoming agenda items.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:28:33
They're not looking for input, in other words.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:28:37
Well, I think a lot of that is going to loop back now.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:28:41
So it's sort of like redundant.
Jennifer Tevendale
Deputy County Attorney
04:28:44
OK. For the committee assignments, is there a motion to approve the committee assignments as discussed at the meeting?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:28:54
I don't know.
04:28:54
Is there a motion to approve these committee assignments?
Jennifer Tevendale
Deputy County Attorney
04:28:57
It's kind of like touch and go here.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:28:58
So moved.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:28:59
I have a motion I have a second and I have no further I just have a question for clarification and I'll be quick I'm assuming that this is like a code thing of where we have to perform and not perform like it's not just we get to decide what committees we go to right I mean I know we decide which ones but when you're saying can we add this one or that would be a Board of Supervisors decision right
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:29:26
Correct.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:29:26
We're just asking, is that really still a thing?
04:29:29
I was just making sure.
04:29:31
I'll just be honest with you right now.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:29:34
I don't know.
04:29:34
I need to.
04:29:36
There's so many of these things.
04:29:38
I'll figure it out.
04:29:39
I want to come back.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:29:41
It's 9-20.
04:29:43
I got it.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:29:43
It's been a long day.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:29:44
But you're right.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:29:45
Usually the board says this is a committee.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:29:47
That would be my pattern.
04:29:50
that they have to.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:29:51
And conversely, if there's a committee they don't want us to staff.
Mary Katherine King
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:29:54
Exactly.
04:29:54
That's okay.
04:29:56
Make sure I understand.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
04:29:59
So are we going to take a vote on this?
04:30:00
Yes.
04:30:01
Okay.
04:30:02
Ms. King?
04:30:03
Aye.
04:30:03
Ms. Firehock?
04:30:04
Aye.
04:30:05
Mr. Carrazana?
04:30:06
Aye.
04:30:06
Mr. Clayborne?
04:30:07
Aye.
04:30:08
Mr. Murray?
04:30:09
Aye.
04:30:09
Mr. Moore?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:30:10
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
04:30:11
Thank you.
04:30:13
That's it, right?
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:30:15
Yes.
04:30:15
What am I agreeing to?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:30:18
Oh, you have to go to the actual.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:30:27
What am I, what am I adorning to?
04:30:30
February 10th.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
04:30:35
We're adjourning to February 24th at 6 PM.
04:30:39
Yes.
Karen Firehock
Vice Chair, Planning Commission
04:30:40
I put it on my calendar.
Luis Carrazana
Chair, Planning Commission
04:30:41
We're adjourned.
04:30:43
Planning Commission is adjourned until February 24th, 2026.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
04:30:48
Good work.