Planning Commission Work Session (4:00 PM) and Regular Meeting (6:00 PM)   2/25/2025

Do you mind calling the roll please?

Mr. Missel?

Here.

Firehock?

Here.

Mr. Murray?

Here.

Thank you.

Thanks to the weather.

But we're looking forward to jumping into the discussion after some snow days.

That's probably the most important thing.

That is Skye.

Another stakeholder at the park.

So now I will turn it over to Tim to talk about the chapter itself.

It's clear that parks and greenways are really essential infrastructure for thriving communities.

Thank you.

Start with Commissioner Firehawk.

Sure.

Commissioner Moore.

I guess you kind of almost kind of have to do this in a way but like I do get a little antsy sometimes when I just see things that effectively we're like we're gonna plan to make a plan like really that's that's the whole part of the picture one but but no I think I see these three being a really nice set of priorities awesome thank you Mr. Murray any questions yeah so

And so what kind of discussions do you have with the school board about like where there's opportunities where maybe we could do more to support our youth athletes?

So there is some good collaboration, but I think I'm hearing to your point perhaps there's an opportunity to strengthen that.

But, you know, any thoughts about how we can maybe broaden that process to be more encompassing of the variety of outdoor recreation and indoor recreation that occurs in Elmore County?

I think we can elevate outdoor recreation up to that same kind of gold standard.

So will some of those topics and action items be included in like the economic development chapter or may be appropriate to have some action items related to economic development and recreation in this chapter?

And to what extent it's in parks and recreation or in economic or some combination, I think it's something that should be in both.

So I think based on some of the more recent feedback we've been hearing, there's some good opportunities with the next iteration to go back and better improve some of those cross ties.

Commissioner Bivins.

That's the kinds of things off of objective three that I'm going to be really excited to hear about.

Awesome.

How do you begin to get there?

Thank you.

And so I think that's what you, when you talk about what you saw there,

the old seers trying to can't think of the right can't think of the name of the development right now but it was actually condemned and they had to go in and they they did a structural retrofit on it and now there's shops and it's actually live work so there's shops there's apartments above the belt line goes right through it so anyway yes thank you I think that's a good way of putting it

And I think providing that as an option would provide flexibility and allow us to fill some of the gaps and things like where we're desperately missing a sidewalk and people could care less whether we have, you know, a dozen more little pocket parks or dog parks or whatever.

Mr. Firehock.

I finished.

not necessarily in a park and so the opportunities that creates these connections definitely are in parks.

So you don't just have a fund building up with no vision of how it's gonna be deployed.

to do that and provide a backbone for redevelopment of, probably since on 29, you know, and being able to have some space.

anyone had a development plan in mind.

What's there?

So I'll get out of the transportation chapter, but just want, if you think about it, not as discrete things, but moving people in wildlife and finding those opportunities and we have it in a map, then it will probably be realized more.

I'm just disappointed you didn't add stormwater to that one too, because it could be that.

You know, that kind of thing.

And we could do that in five minutes.

But it doesn't make it onto the maps and I wonder if there's some kind of more formal way to include those and kind of what we're doing.

What other documents are we anticipating?

And then Tim, I don't know if you have anything to add from a plan standpoint.

But yeah, with a comprehensive plan kind of being the top, perhaps, and then the master plans being similar information and more specific geography and more detail, I think we would then have a county wide parks and recreation and open space plan.

Okay.

So kind of in that order, I think.

I guess we're waiting for this to be done and then you'll, or are those existing and they'll be reviewed and updated?

And then the Rec and Needs Assessment, if I recall correctly in 2018, that was started and finished within a year or less.

Got it.

So that would be another one of those plans that would be an update or amendment as opposed to starting from scratch.

What is the vision for resources to be added to achieve these things?

It might be forgetting some though.

Maintenance and how are you balancing that with the aspirational goals?

But as we inherit more trails or more infrastructure, the need to not only do the routine maintenance, but the inspections, the eventual replacement or upgrades, those all grow in tandem with the increasing assets.

So yeah.

So could you just sort of open up a little bit about when you talk about open space, what does that mean in the example that you just shared with us?

That answer?

That is, and I was hoping you'd go to the last one because then again, we're going back to that new phrase about leveraging density.

Yeah, exactly.

We don't have the open space because it's like the ends of the day.

Right.

Yeah, you're creating place.

And along with that, thinking about diversity and the offering, somebody mentioned that, like we're not just doing soccer fields and that's it, or you're not just building a trail that goes through the woods, but you have events, you have activities, and you activate those trails.

I don't have to do it.

I can have it all at all.

Why do we have to skip?

And if you have to slow down in one column so you can catch up in the other, I don't know how that's built into the chapters.

All right.

Can I expand that a little bit?

Go ahead and then I have a totally unrelated comment.

Just a big picture question about public safety and how that's monitored, how that's cared for, and is that woven into AC44 in this plan?

I don't

That's it.

Yeah, so

You can compare this with soccer, for example, and not to pick on soccer.

But picking on soccer.

So I mean, I think you've called that out before.

But maybe providing bird blinds or other, some benches, some other facilities.

And there are some large properties owned by Rivanna, Water and Sewer that can't be reservoir that could be wildlife management areas, just saying.

Make sure we got enough time.

What I'd love to see is a broadening of the scope of really what we think of what we think of recreation, the economic value of recreation and how that ties into the other chapters.

That's that's where I'm coming from on that.

So I think when I think about expanding our notion of how we think of recreation, how we think of diversity, and how it connects with these things, I think it's... It sits with you, and I appreciate it.

So as we think about our infrastructure, that we think about where do these pieces, what do they unlock so that people can in fact use these things in our community in ways that they hadn't been able to use them before?

I think that's important to also put it in that too.

in the parks.

I like that a lot.

Thank you.

I just threw in some ideas about resiliency features you could add, like solar panels on tops of buildings, and just doing more with our facilities to actually build in that resiliency component.

because that's a great measure of where recreation activities are happening throughout the Catten County.

Thank you staff for great, great work session and conversation and look forward to the next time.

Thank you all.

I will put us into recess until 6pm.

Thank you.

Could you call the roll, please?

Firehock?

Here.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Hello.

State your name and general location of residence, please.

Move the microphone to my mouth so you can hear me.

Even better.

I'm going to clean a little too and look lazy.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Kristin Jones and Shawnee Baker is on deck.

Thank you.

Shawnee Baker and Mark, I think it's Gebhardt is on deck.

Gebhardt.

Gebhardt, thank you.

Thank you for considering this.

Mark Gebbard and Lynn Gebbard is on deck.

Thank you.

Lynn Gebhardt, and Liz King is on deck.

I made it under my three minutes.

You did.

I'm really happy about that.

Liz King and then Lucia Evans-Morse.

Thank you very much.

Hi, Morris.

So thank you very much for your consideration.

And Anne Wicks is the last person I have on my list.

Horses are in... Does that mean I'm done?

No, you have a minute.

Thank you.

We do have one online?

Yep.

Thank you.

You will have three minutes to speak.

Hi, can you hear me?

Yes.

I've just, I've been listening for the whole meeting.

Is there anyone else online?

Yes.

Mary, can you unmute and you have three minutes to speak?

Ma'am, we can't hear you if you're speaking.

Can you hear me now?

Thanks.

I know many of the other people that I board with have been talking about it, and we'd really like to see that put back in under discussion to allow horse riding in Biscuit Run.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We have a motion to second any discussion.

Firehock.

Hi.

Mr. Murray.

Hi.

Thank you.

Do I have a motion

Yes, I moved to defer SP 2024-1, Crozet, Independence Day celebration.

And now it would be a motion to defer until March 11th.

Correct.

Any discussion?

It's going to be a busy planning commission meeting.

Do we have a motion?

I move to accept the applicant's request to defer to March 11, 2025 for the Living Earth School.

If not, could we call the roll please?

Mr. Murray.

Hi.

Hi.

All right, moving on to the public hearings, we will begin with ZMA 2024-4 flow Toyota and Mercedes slopes rezoning and I'll ask for the staff report.

This is definitely the steep slopes over Lake District rezoning.

Any questions for staff?

Could you point out, maybe the closer in map even, I was wondering if you could gather, I was wondering if you could point out about where that part would be that?

It's those at the rear of 14A.

Okay.

The other questions for staff?

Can you just go back real quick?

Okay, so we went through the managed slopes criteria, and then I had the... Yeah, it was this.

Okay, thank you.

All right, I went too fast.

Yeah, any other questions?

Can you go back to the map showing the slopes?

The slope map you wanted to see again.

You just had it up.

Yeah, the zoom in.

I think I understood what you said, but the managed slope that's showing there, in between the two reserves slopes, so that was changed in what year again?

It was a 2016 amendment to the overlay district.

What was the logic to move it to a manageable, I'm just wondering, because they seem to all have the same characteristics or the same, so what was the, I know they gave a proffer, but was it just as they gave a proffer?

The rezoning was necessary to address an outstanding violation.

Thank you.

Any other questions?

And you say, well, we successfully convert it to the manager from preserve.

Ragsdale, could I could you just circle which slopes are we are we are you are you asking us to consider tonight?

We've talked about the managed slopes already that were changed.

We're not looking to change the characteristics of the yellow slope as it writes tonight.

No, that would remain managed.

Keep going.

and then these are the preserved slopes at the rear of 14E.

And then can you show where the water management?

Well, there is no water protection ordinance buffer that's showing on the critical resources layer because the stream buffer is not a requirement of intermittent streams.

Okay, but when you walk the property, there is something that looks like it's a water catchment basement down in the bottom of all that.

When you go out there,

It looked like something happened because someone dug it out.

that you know we've referenced the ones there there are some stormwater facilities that are located where preserved slopes are designated there may be also some where it's designated managed our engineering staff has walked the site if you have any specific questions about that it might be helpful if I go back to this one I'm not certain but I think that may cover all of your questions I'm not sure exactly where you were on the site but the applicant may have something that clarifies that as well

Did you say that there are some stormwater management facilities that are adjacent to both managed and preserved slopes?

Sure.

Although there is maybe greater possibility that they're actually really could be considered managed because the slopes were created for the stormwater management facilities.

that we have looked at them in terms of this application and acknowledged that just for the portion that's on the Mercedes site.

I'm trying to figure that out.

I see.

Is that what you're saying?

They haven't proposed a narrow request.

They're basically just showing evidence of a past disturbance.

I think maybe the best way to put it is, right now, the current proposal in front of you is all of the slopes that you see on there are proposed to be designated, managed in the current request.

But we don't have a plan that shows how they're going to be used?

But what we would be looking for is a detailed accounting based on the square footage that would change and this type of exhibit as well.

I see.

Not just referencing prior sightings.

So nice to be able to see that number.

I welcome any questions you guys have and thank you so much for the opportunity.

We would like to kick us off.

How is the stormwater going to be treated in this new area that's going to be presumably developed to keep pollutants from going straight into that intermittent stream and then dumped right into the Rivanna?

say this on the record and so however we can present that of some on-site treatment for so instead of purchasing nutrient credits for additional disturbance we could you know incorporate stormwater facilities that provide on-site treatment instead of purchase of nutrient credits and so however that you know that might take shape as a biofilter but I think there's definitely an opportunity here for us to incorporate those type of stormwater measures and also understanding the sensitivity of the site and its proximity to the river.

Any other questions?

Okay, so this is late breaking news.

That's our fault.

Would just this slopes on the Eastern side of the parcel be sufficient for that need or?

And it also creates the opportunity for creating additional service space if needed, which is also one of those factors for coming into compliance.

Are you talking about them being told by corporate that they have to have so much area for display and storage of vehicles?

Yes, it all comes from the manufacturer.

So that if they would like to have a market in the Piedmont of Virginia, that perhaps they need to be a little more flexible?

From my understanding, the corporate push is for the absolute hardest effort possible to come into compliance.

I just want to emphasize that for the record.

would help, and obviously it would go to impervious surface, but those would all be subject to modern stormwater regulations, whereas everything in this area was not.

I'm waiting to hear public comments and more discussion before I say anything else.

Any other questions for the applicant?

If I understood an email that I received from the ARB folks, is something else happening on this property with a redesign of the Mercedes dealership?

So that is being renovated, you know, it's an ARB application to change the building around, but it does not affect these.

So what's this property going to become?

So Mercedes, you see here is not the Mercedes of the... It's not the Mercedes that will be there at some X point in the time.

All the rest of the green that's for the west on that piece of property, we are not discussing that any longer.

Yeah, I mean, I think after we located that stream, and then after seeing, you know, the staff report and talking to staff about their evaluation of it, that's, we'd like to remove that from our report.

on your page, on your page 11, what we would expect to see there as a as a moving, a gaining of additional parkings outside display, basically outside display.

Yes, or additional service space or service space.

And service and service spaces are not considered outside display?

I think that's typically the designation that we get caught up in on these is that body shop is special use permit.

So you'll still maintain that.

There'll still be a connection between the two parcels.

Are you aware whether or not they're getting rid of the turn lane in front of all this?

If this was my overlook hotel presentation, I would have it in these slides, but we would have some more info.

But basically the turn lane where cars are currently unloaded sometimes is being removed in the next maybe two years or so.

Right, exactly.

So it is really a service related issue.

And would you expect when they're delivering cars that they'll not, since they won't be able to do it in the middle of 250, they'll have to go on the property someplace and use the internal road.

now that Flow has acquired most all of the fish on that side of the street to improve that but it is you know there are tight on space and so these are all valuable inches of asphalt even though there are many there we recognize every inch is valuable.

So I don't understand why there would be a need to come back to the Planning Commission for outdoor display when there's already brand new cars sitting out there with people like me looking at them.

So since this would be expanding that use, new use established on this property is we would be applying for a special use permit.

I mean, is it too early to tell?

And so with that, we will have some type of surface treatment facility probably incorporated also concurrently with an underground detention system as well.

Got it, thank you.

I have a question.

This is not they're not the cause of this problem.

That's the whole

eight acres, right?

It's all it's the giant parking lot.

Yeah, it's not.

Is that this is that is that going to be built?

Mr. Spooner's lot.

Any of these parcels can develop, but the hotel, we have seen it move forward through the process.

I would just hope that as this whatever this hotel or whatever is being built up there, that it would help to contribute to the cleaning of the water here and not just have it be the responsibility of one place that's not causing all of the detriments there.

They were.

And so I'm sure our applicant is fighting hard to do the right thing on that piece of property.

I have some thoughts, but I don't want to truncate it.

What is, for staff or the county attorney, what is the process for this kind of

If the applicant wishes the staff and the commission to consider something else, it needs to go through the process of submitting that and having that reviewed and formally submit it to the commission.

So are we allowed to put conditions on this kind of application?

The commission can make suggested conditions part of its recommendation, yes.

Yeah, we're in our delivery.

I know after that long public hearing, it's hard to keep track.

We're asking to do that because we're making an improvement to this property to mitigate contaminants.

Bigger issue.

Yeah, I mean, I have constructed the correct way.

But it is a concern.

It would be conditions that the Planning Commission would be making a recommendation based on certain conditions, if that makes sense.

Modify or put forward a resolution, a motion that deals with the cane as opposed to dealing with all the other pieces.

I'm sorry, that deals with what?

Just the red, the red, the outline in red.

OK.

So it sounds like we could, yeah.

And then beyond that, it's up to the commission if it wishes to make additional recommendations.

And I don't, I guess I've yet to fully grok the reason for kind of like a sort of sacrosanct preservation of some of those slopes when it's just they were put there in the 70s.

As I said, my concern is the sort of incremental creep, you know, into the critical slopes, into the streams, until eventually we're up against the river itself and there's sort of a slipper slope argument.

Yeah.

I'm not seeing that in a lot of other places where that would be maybe a different read, but for me, it's that.

Yeah, and I agree, because part of the proposal is to leave it in a better condition than it is now.

Yeah.

So we, right, right.

So, I think we get back to the chair.

But if I had seen it, but if I had a different proposal in front of me that included the things that we had discussed, I would vote yes.

I would be the same.

I agree.

I think our applicants would be the same.

or a request deferral.

No, we can't request deferral.

I'm not saying we can't.

Yeah, I would suggest that if a deferral is considered, it should be at the request of the applicant, rather than at the initiation of the commission.

100%.

Would anybody like to step in for pouring, make a motion?

Ragsdale might put the motion slides up on the screen, please.

Bear, I move to recommend denial of ZMA-2024-00004 for the reasons stated in the staff report.

The only further discussion I think I would add is that they're just to highlight that there was an there was further discussion provided further detail provided by the applicant tonight that was Mr. Chair, I appreciate the additional discussion and that and the commission certainly welcome to make additional discussion but there is a motion and a second and at this point that the motion should be voted on or formally modified not added in discussion

I mean, and if the commission chooses to make a second motion after this motion, it's certainly free to do so.

Do we have a vote?

I just wanted to clarify what the motion was that the commission is voting on.

Miss Firehawk.

Hi.

Mr. Murray.

Hi.

Thank you.

Can we now make it?

If the commission wishes to make further motions, it's certainly welcome to do so.

If it, you know, I guess, let's see, contingent on removal of the western contiguous portion of preserved slopes and with the addition of water management, clarification around, you know, water management.

That will ultimately improve the downstream condition.

Yes, those words add that to my question.

Mr. Moore, is that in reference to what's on the peering on the screen right now, the ZMA request revised proposal?

Yeah, so basically I would move to recommend the revised proposal with the addition of stormwater management that would improve the overall

Well, I don't think that was not advertised to the public as what we were voting on tonight.

This is just a motion that we can say this is what we would like to do.

So is the motion that the commission stated support for a revised proposal that would... To be brought forward.

That's a future date to be determined.

However, the Brabert rules portion of this is not my strong suit.

Did we get all the language in there?