Central Virginia
Albemarle County
Planning Commission Work Session and Regular Meeting 1/23/2024
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Planning Commission Work Session and Regular Meeting
1/23/2024
Attachments
Agenda.pdf
Minutes.pdf
Action Memo.pdf
Affordable Housing Developer Incentives Cover Memo.pdf
Attach A - Affordable Housing Ordinance No 23-A.2(1).pdf
Attach B - DRAFT - Affordable Rental Housing Grant Program - 17 January 2024.pdf
ZMA2023-11 4102 Dickerson Road Staff Report.pdf
Attach 1 - ZMA2023-11 Dickerson Road - Existing Conditions Map.pdf
Attach 2 - ZMA2023-11 4102 Dickerson Road - Zoning Map.pdf
Attach 3 - ZMA2023-11 4102 Dickerson Road -Applicant Narrative.pdf
Attach 4 - ZMA2023-11 4102 Dickerson Road - Conceptual Map.pdf
SP2023-06 Arbor Life Tree Service Staff Report.pdf
Attach 1 - SP2023-06 Arbor Life Tree Service - Existing Conditions and Context Map.pdf
Attach 2 - SP2023-06 Arbor Life Tree Service - Application Narrative.pdf
Attach 3 - SP2023-06 Arbor Life Tree Service - Concept Plan.pdf
Attach 4 - SP2023-06 Arbor Life Tree Service - Virginia Department of Health Comments.pdf
Attach 5 - SP2023-06 Arbor Life Tree Service - Building Inspections Comments.pdf
Draft PC Minutes 12_12_2023.pdf
1. Call to order and establish quorum.
▶︎
0:17
2. Other Matters Not Listed on the Agenda from the Public.
▶︎
0:53
3. Consent Agenda (on next sheet).
▶︎
1:34
4. Work Session.
▶︎
2:31
a. Affordable Housing: Developer Incentives
▶︎
2:31
Affordable Housing_ Developer Incentives.pdf
5. Public Hearing.
▶︎
46:31
a. ZMA202300011 4102 Dickerson Road
▶︎
46:31
ZMA202300011 4102 Dickerson Road.pdf
b. SP202300006 Arbor Life Tree Service
▶︎
1:07:05
SP202300006 Arbor Life Tree Service.pdf
6. Committee Reports.
▶︎
2:05:09
7. Review of Board of Supervisors Meeting:
▶︎
2:23:17
8. AC44 Update
▶︎
2:25:39
9. New Business.
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2:30:17
10. Old Business.
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2:30:17
11. Items for follow-up.
▶︎
2:33:09
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:00:04
Are we good, Carolyn?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:00:08
Can you hear me?
00:00:11
Yes.
00:00:12
We're ready to start the meeting.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:00:13
Great.
00:00:14
Thank you, Carolyn.
00:00:15
Good evening, everyone.
00:00:17
It is January 23rd, and I am calling to order the Planning Commission for this evening, and I will begin by establishing a quorum.
00:00:28
Could you call the roll, please?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:00:30
Yes.
00:00:32
Ms.
00:00:33
Firehock, here Mr. Carrazana, here Mr. Missel, here Mr. Clayborne, here Mr. Murray, here Mr. Bivins, here and Mr. Moore is not here at this time
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:00:49
Great, thank you.
00:00:50
So we have an interesting evening as always.
00:00:53
I will start by opening up for matters, comments and matters not listed on the agenda from the public.
00:01:01
And I'd like to just make one comment.
00:01:04
for awareness.
00:01:05
Typically, as our first item on the agenda is a work session.
00:01:09
We typically do not have public comment during work sessions.
00:01:14
So I would suggest that if you are interested in commenting on the affordable housing developer initiatives, that you do so at this time.
00:01:23
So I will open it up for any comments from the public not listed on the agenda or the work session.
00:01:34
all right that seems like it's not uh it seems pretty straightforward thank you um so with that mr chair are there any online comments or madam clerk are there any comments online no sir no sir there isn't okay great thanks um we will now move on to the consent agenda and I'll ask if any commissioners would like to pull this item from the consent agenda for further review
00:02:04
All right, seeing none, I will ask if there's a motion to approve the consent agenda.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:02:10
So moved.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:02:11
The second?
00:02:12
Second.
00:02:13
Any discussion?
00:02:16
Madam Clerk, could you call the roll?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:02:18
Mr. Bivins?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:02:18
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:02:20
Mr. Murray?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:02:20
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:02:21
Mr. Claiborne?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:02:23
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:02:23
Mr. Missel?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:02:24
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:02:24
Mr. Carrazana?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:02:25
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
00:02:26
Ms.
00:02:27
Firehock?
00:02:27
Aye.
00:02:28
Thank you.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:02:29
Thank you.
00:02:31
with that we will move on to our work session affordable housing developer incentives
00:02:39
And if I may, Dr. Pethia, if I could ask you a question before we actually start to sort of frame the discussion and help us all to understand our best use of time and how you would like to see our comments provided.
00:02:53
Would you have any recommendations to us knowing that the Board of Supervisors meeting is coming up in about four weeks or so to review this?
00:03:02
Are there areas that you would specifically like us to focus on or ways that you'd like us to react to your information?
00:03:13
Anything you could provide would be helpful.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:03:15
I'm sure Stacey Pethia, assistant director of housing.
00:03:19
Excuse me, I think really focusing on the core pieces which will cover tonight, not looking at the entire incentive package itself, but is is the amount of incentive enough is the time period for the incentive enough.
00:03:33
And I think those are those are the two main ones that we are really interested in.
00:03:39
And so I'm that we're happy.
00:03:40
I'm happy to take any comments that you have.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:03:43
Thanks.
00:03:43
I missed the first one.
00:03:44
You said incentive, time period.
00:03:46
What was it?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:03:47
The amount of incentive.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:03:48
The amount of incentives.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:03:49
A little more volume on her mic.
00:03:55
Maybe it's still quiet.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:03:58
Great.
00:03:59
Sounded like it was getting a little bit better, but we'll give it a shot.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:04:01
I will try to talk directly into it.
00:04:06
And I'm sorry, my throat's a little scratchy tonight.
00:04:08
So I will do my best.
00:04:12
So again, my name is Stacy Pathy.
00:04:14
I'm assistant director of housing, and we are here tonight to discuss affordable housing developer incentives.
00:04:21
And we're really going to cover a couple of basic areas tonight, so we'll do a little bit of background on how we got here today.
00:04:27
We'll go over the proposed incentive program goals, the type of assistance that will be provided, program eligibility to receive an incentive, and then some of the proposed program requirements, really focusing on the main portions.
00:04:46
This is just a timeline going back to when housing Albemarle the housing policy was adopted in July 2021 at that time the board delayed full implementation of the policy and we will get to which portions were delayed in just a moment but one of those requirements to fully implement the program the policy was to develop a package of developer incentives so after the
00:05:12
policy was adopted.
00:05:13
Staff held a series of meetings with local developers through June and October of 2021.
00:05:18
There have been a number of different proposals brought forward to the Board of Supervisors for review.
00:05:26
And then we did have
00:05:30
An ordinance was adopted in May of 2023 that enables the county to provide grants or loans for affordable rental housing.
00:05:39
And December 4th, which all of you attended a joint work session with the Board of Supervisors, some representatives from the development community to discuss what developer incentives would look like.
00:05:50
The information received during that work session really fed into what we will be discussing tonight.
00:06:00
again looking at housing Albemarle and the rental housing goals specifically the board had asked staff to not fully implement the policy until developer incentives were agreed upon and really we delayed implementation of three sections one was to change the definition of affordable rental housing from serving households at 80 percent of area median income to households at 60 percent of AMI
00:06:31
And then increasing the minimum percentage affordable units in the residential developments from 15% to 20% that 20% is really based on data approximately 20% of the households in the county have incomes that are around 60% AMI.
00:06:51
and extending the affordability period for rental units from 10 years that it is today to 30 years and that really helps ensure that several generations will be able to be served by those units.
00:07:05
Again, in May of 2023, the board adopted ordinance number 23-A21 that enables the county to make grants or loans for the construction of new or the rehabilitation of existing rental housing for persons of low and moderate income.
00:07:24
in order that the enabling legislation does require developers to provide 20% of the total units in their developments as affordable housing defined however the locality defines it and those units must be affordable for at least 10 years in order to take advantage of those loans or grants.
00:07:43
And so based on the enabling legislation and the feedback received from various work sessions, staff created a developer of an affordable rental housing grant program.
00:07:56
The program goals are to support the creation of affordable rental housing, to support the preservation of existing units of affordable rental housing through rehabilitation of those units.
00:08:07
to leverage market activities to advance the goals of the housing policy and to provide transparent and accountable stewardship of public investments in affordable housing.
00:08:18
The type of assistance that will be provided through this program is a rebate of the net increase in real property tax revenue over a 30-year term and the incentive will be equal to 11% of the annual tax increment.
00:08:33
In order to be eligible for the program, the project must be new construction, the expansion of an existing property, conversion of a property to residential rental property, or substantial rehab of an existing residential property.
00:08:50
It would apply to projects with more than 10 units, so 11 or more units, located within the development areas to make sure that the infrastructure is there to serve the property.
00:09:02
The applicant must have control of the project site at the time the grant is awarded and an approved rezoning if that is applicable.
00:09:09
And again, a minimum of 20% of the units must be provided as affordable housing.
00:09:17
Some of the program requirements, and these are really the main ones, in order, there will be an application process at the beginning, just so we have the information to make sure that the project really needs the assistance.
00:09:29
So they will need to demonstrate financial need, so those affordable units can't be built unless we provide the grant.
00:09:37
The maximum affordable gross rent set by housing Albemarle so that we need to demonstrate that those are in the development pro forma.
00:09:46
The affordable units must be dispersed throughout the building or development so we don't want them all clustered onto one floor or into one corner of a property.
00:09:55
The affordable units should be comparable in style and size to market rate units and again they should be affordable for a 30 year period.
00:10:04
And before I move on to questions and comments, I should say that based on feedback and discussions of the December 4th work session, the incentive will really incentivize that jump from the 15% affordable, which are already required to be provided up to that 20%.
00:10:19
So not the full affordable units.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:10:25
Got it.
00:10:25
Wow, that was...
00:10:27
That was a lot quickly.
00:10:28
That's great.
00:10:29
Thank you.
00:10:31
So what I'm going to do is go around and ask folks to have specific questions.
00:10:37
If you don't have any questions for Dr. Pethia, we will have a time to discuss your thoughts and comments.
00:10:44
But let's start with just questions.
00:10:46
And I'll begin with Commissioner Firehawk.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:10:51
Okay, so two questions.
00:10:54
The first one is about the email that we received was a comment from one of the affordable housing providers about grants versus, you know, tax forgiveness or other forms.
00:11:07
Could you comment more on that?
00:11:09
I mean, I understood the rationale for why grants were less preferred in the argument, but why we're going the way we're going.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:11:17
Yes, so I actually brought with us a section of the enabling legislation.
00:11:24
It is very specific in that localities may make grants or loans to the owners of residential rental property.
00:11:31
We are not enabled to do tax abatement, so we need to structure this in a way that it's a grant.
00:11:37
We hadn't really thought about whether or not it would be a loan, so that is something we can consider after this meeting.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:11:42
Okay.
00:11:43
And then the other question relates to restricting the affordable, these programs to the development area, if I understood that.
00:11:54
I mean, I understand that we want to push development into the development area.
00:11:59
I get the whole, we don't need a lecture on that, but it's also the most expensive place to build and develop.
00:12:06
So I guess that's my question.
00:12:07
Now, for example, I had a while back
00:12:11
recommended rehabbing some houses in my district, and they were rehabbed, and that allowed people to stay in houses that were on the verge of being condemned.
00:12:22
And so that created affordable housing for people who couldn't fix up their homes.
00:12:26
I think it was like maybe a dozen homes got done, something like that.
00:12:30
So with that kind of program,
00:12:32
That's a substantial rehabilitation under this.
00:12:36
I'm just wondering, and I'm not saying those programs will go away, but I just question that the whole program would have to be limited to the development area.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:12:46
So for this particular incentive, staff does recommend it be limited to the development area since it is related to rental housing, which would mostly be multifamily housing, and that way we make sure that the public infrastructure is there to support the new units.
00:13:03
The type of project you're talking about, which is individual homeowner rehabilitation projects, we can still do those, we just need to use a different funding stream.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:13:11
Okay well I know I'll one last note then in the comprehensive plan workshops that we've been having around the county one thing that came up in Esmont which is a community as you know they talked to several people there talked about wanting to have a diversity of housing types and and brought up the potential for townhomes or apartments or
00:13:33
you know other opportunities for people to not have to move away when say like, for example, they age or the kids leave the house or whatever, and they want to live in a smaller unit.
00:13:42
So I guess I don't want to foreclose the possibility that that type housing type could be an asthma and that our program could help make that possible.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:13:52
Yes, absolutely.
00:13:53
There's always going to be room to be flexible in these things.
00:13:58
And if this program does not work, we do have other... Can you guys hear me?
00:14:02
This seems to go in and out.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:14:04
It's not as clear as usual.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:14:08
It's weird.
00:14:10
Sorry.
00:14:11
There are other funding streams that we can access to make those types of projects happen as well if this does not work.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:14:18
Okay.
00:14:20
Great.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
00:14:21
Thank you, Commissioner Carrazana Stacy, thank you for the presentation.
00:14:27
So a couple questions.
00:14:30
Is the incentive only for rental affordable?
00:14:34
So not for homes that would be affordable, but for purchase.
00:14:40
So it's only for rentals.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:14:41
Correct.
00:14:41
The enabling legislation is very clear.
00:14:44
We can provide public funds for the construction or rehabilitation of affordable rental housing.
00:14:52
If we wish to do, we can't use it to build home ownership opportunities.
00:14:56
We would have to use a different funding stream for that.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
00:15:00
So my next question has to do with a conversation that we started back in that joint meeting.
00:15:07
about what the percentage is actually realized versus what's proposed.
00:15:12
Now, I know that's much more acute under for sale versus rental.
00:15:16
The rentals, I think you get a much higher percentage.
00:15:21
But still, my question is, is the incentive based on what is proposed at 20% or what is actually realized from that development?
00:15:29
So let's say they only realize 15% as affordable.
00:15:34
Is the incentive still the same amount?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:15:37
No, so with this incentive, they must provide 20% of the units as affordable housing, or they cannot access the incentive.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
00:15:46
But what if they're not realized as affordable?
00:15:48
So what if they don't fill them?
00:15:50
Because my understanding is that after a certain time, if they're not filled, they go back to market rate.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:15:54
I understand.
00:15:55
Sorry, I was misunderstanding your question.
00:15:57
So we are actually, the staff is working on a process that we will have a waiting list for these types of units.
00:16:05
So when the units come online, developers will market those directly to people on the waiting list.
00:16:11
We are hoping to have that initially up and running by July 1st of this year, so we need to get some final pieces in place, but then staff will do the initial income qualification to make sure they qualify to rent those units, and then developers would market those units directly to people on the waiting list.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
00:16:31
So you're basically wanting to guarantee that the 20% will be filled with, so you're making some adjustments to?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:16:36
Correct.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
00:16:37
Thank you.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:16:40
Great question.
00:16:40
Thank you.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:16:42
Mr. Claiborne.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:16:43
Thank you.
00:16:45
Dr. Pathy, could you talk a little bit about the metrics that will track to determine success and what tools essentially what I'm asking is do you have the resources to implement this program to connect the dots the way it needs to be connected?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:16:59
Yes, so we currently have one additional housing staff person.
00:17:03
We are in the process of hiring a second, and both of those will share the responsibility of tracking these units and this program.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:17:11
Okay, good.
00:17:12
And then you had a slide up here that said all the different types of construction that are permissible.
00:17:19
I was curious, what is not eligible?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:17:23
Not eligible would be home ownership opportunities.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:17:26
Okay, so that's it.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:17:27
That's it.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:17:29
any renovation, rehab, new construction.
00:17:32
And then last question, I'm not sure if it's appropriate to incorporate this into this piece of legislation or it's a future thing, but I'm wondering how do we start to tie sustainability as part of an incentive to this?
00:17:47
If you're going into development area, you know, location near a bus stop or using environmentally sensitive materials, things like that, was that discussed?
00:17:58
I understand I want to put too much into this, but correct.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:18:01
So I do know the climate action team is looking at several different incentive programs for sustainability issues, and we have been in contact with them.
00:18:11
So housing is working with the climate action team to try to develop incentives around those issues.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:18:19
Good, good.
00:18:19
Thank you.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:18:22
Thank you, Commissioner Ray.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:18:23
Pass.
00:18:25
Okay, Commissioner Bivins.
00:18:27
Thank you, Chair.
00:18:28
So if you could, it would be really helpful if you could give me an example.
00:18:35
So if I do a project that's sort of $50 million, and I do the 20% or 30, 20%, I do 100% just so that everybody's clear here, my project would be 100% affordable.
00:18:51
But if one of my colleagues was a partner, it'd probably only be 20%.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:18:55
so how much money would I be able to come to you for a grant it would it would um the the grant would cover that difference so we're gonna have to go with 20 percent would be 20 of the 100 million 20 no 20 of the of the units is affordable so if it's 100 affordable we can look at a different uh funding stream so this is really focused on that 20 okay okay so thanks so so it's 20 of whatever the value of the project is I assume
00:19:24
It would be 10%, or sorry, 11% of the tax increment.
00:19:28
The tax increment.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:19:32
And the increment is from not being affordable to being affordable.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:19:36
It's based on the real property tax.
00:19:38
Okay.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:19:39
Okay.
00:19:40
I'm sorry, just to clarify, real property tax of the market rate units, correct?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:19:45
Of the entire property.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:19:46
Of the entire property.
00:19:47
Okay.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:19:48
So you get the discounted value because you're doing 20%, you're getting a different value because there's a 20% reduction in the prices.
00:19:55
Okay, fine.
00:19:56
So that would be a really good thing to have.
00:19:57
I know you don't have examples, but I think if we're trying to attract, I can envision a time where it's just not a non-for-profit or a for-profit, but there might be a group of people who come together and say,
00:20:10
you know we're just gonna make we're gonna make this happen so in a similar sort of a similar way that a land trust might somebody might say we're gonna give land and we're also gonna build it or the count you know so something like so and so something like that and then I was trying to figure out one of my colleagues mentioned targets do we have any idea or do you have anything idea yet about how many units might be available for renovation
00:20:35
So that would be so in the development area, if we're looking to market this, you know, my whole idea is how do we get how do we get the market?
00:20:42
How do we get the community to know about these things?
00:20:46
So if there was a collection of properties that if renovated,
00:20:52
would qualify for these funds as opposed to having to depend simply on new development.
00:21:02
So if we're trying to keep people in spaces, which one of my colleagues here is always interested in, how do we do that in a way that these funds can get directed to those?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:21:11
I don't have a good number, a handle on that number.
00:21:14
What I can speak to are the affordable units that we already have.
00:21:19
So those that would be low income housing tax credits.
00:21:22
I know that right now there are two properties that are coming up to their end of their compliance period.
00:21:27
So between those two, there's 250 to 300 rental units in there.
00:21:31
So that would be one example.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:21:34
Okay, so I'm trying to give an example for my colleague at the other end.
00:21:38
Would the Meadows and Crozet, now granted that part of Crozet is in the development area, but it's, you know, sort of rural, wood fields and all that stuff.
00:21:47
Would something like that qualify down in ESMA?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:21:51
It could.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:21:52
Do you know that model?
00:21:54
So that model is something which does have that kind of scale to it, which could in fact be something that we would see in ESMA.
00:22:01
So the other thing for us, when we talk about crossroad communities, let us think about perhaps being that being a place that might be open to
00:22:13
this kind of affordable housing situation.
00:22:16
So if we talk about that, if Esmont becomes one of those places that we identify as a crossroad community, that we think about that being, because that would then help to maintain that kind of housing there.
00:22:27
And so the only other last thing that I had here, a question.
00:22:33
Do we have a sense that within, I think someone spoke to us last, or someone spoke on our commission last week about us really being in a regional housing committee.
00:22:44
Do we have a sense of what's going on among our cohorts with this kind of issue?
00:22:49
Are we leading?
00:22:50
Are we there?
00:22:51
What would we expect to see there?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:22:54
I will say we're more familiar with the city activities than anybody else.
00:23:00
I know most of the other localities within the planning district are also updating the comprehensive plans at this time.
00:23:08
Being members of the Regional Housing Partnership, that does keep us in tune with affordable housing activities, but not a great deal of information about what's happening in other areas.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:23:22
Thank you, Chair.
00:23:25
Thank you, Commissioner Bivins.
00:23:26
Commissioner Moore?
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:23:28
Thank you for the presentation.
00:23:29
Like Commissioner Missel pointed out, there's a lot of good information quickly and efficiently.
00:23:35
So a hypothetical, and this is just to better understand, I think I've got it with the tax incentive on this, but let's say there was a large rental development that had a property tax bill of $100,000 a year if it was all market.
00:23:47
If they had 20% affordable units, their property tax bill would be $89,000 a year.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:23:52
Okay.
00:23:53
I can't say for certain.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:23:55
Hypothetical numbers.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:24:01
I'm not going to say yes or no.
00:24:03
That's a question for the finance department.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:24:08
That general idea is what we're after here.
00:24:11
Okay.
00:24:12
And then there's another comment from the affordable housing developer, Sunshine, who I just wanted to also ask.
00:24:20
and as about the 11% of real property tax increment, if there's more affordable units, 30% or 40% or 50% affordable units voluntarily sort of offered, is there a way for that 11% to be a higher percentage or does it shift into some other funding stream?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:24:41
At the moment, I don't have a good answer for that.
00:24:43
That would really require more discussion with the Finance Department.
00:24:49
The percentage that is included in the program now is really Department of Finance had done a number of calculations, and that's the percentage that they feel comfortable enough saying the county can forgo each year for each project and be able to balance the budget without
00:25:09
cutting any services and having the revenue to attract to serve new households because if it's new construction any new units are going to attract new households.
00:25:20
I looked at some numbers census data before I came here and there's approximately 47,000
00:25:28
units in the county, about 44,000 households, so 44,000 of those units are occupied.
00:25:35
But of the vacant units, only about 580 of those are actually vacant due to being for rent and just nobody rented them yet, or for sale and no one has bought it yet.
00:25:48
All of the rest of them are either rented, not yet occupied, purchased, not yet occupied, or they are seasonal.
00:25:57
properties.
00:25:58
So any new units that can build will increase the households in the county.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:26:02
So our actually unused units is like 1%.
00:26:05
I also had one other question and we can get to the discussion.
00:26:11
And this was the minimum of 11 units in a new development to qualify for this program.
00:26:16
And I was thinking about, and not that we have a lot of these, but if there's like small lots
00:26:21
where a developer comes to us and wants to build five townhomes or eight or ten and include affordable units in it.
00:26:28
Is there a reason to prevent them from participating in this?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:26:33
Probably not.
00:26:33
We could probably find some way to do this, so we can look at it.
00:26:36
We chose the number 11 or more units.
00:26:39
Thinking about through the proffer system, we do ask for 15%.
00:26:43
It gets really hard for someone to voluntarily provide affordable units below that, so that's where that number was chosen.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:26:51
Thank you.
00:26:53
Great, thanks.
00:26:54
I'm actually going to leapfrog off of that last comment because I had a question that was similar to that.
00:27:00
So if a developer, are we saying essentially that the development community has a choice here?
00:27:06
They can continue to adhere to the 15% for 10 years at 80% AMI, or they can go to the 20% at 60% AMI for 30 years if they choose to pursue the grant.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:27:22
No, it is my understanding the board fully expects that the housing policy be fully implemented, and this is designed to help them get to that extra 20%.
00:27:31
Great.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:27:32
So, so the requirement moving forward will be the 20% and the developer will have the option to go for the grant or not.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:27:41
Correct.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:27:42
So continuing on that line of thinking, you had mentioned in here that the board of supervisors reserves the right to set priorities among applications under consideration.
00:27:54
The board may reject an application if it does not provide the information requested or if circumstances change.
00:28:01
So have you thought about impacts of that statement to the development community?
00:28:06
In other words, if this is truly at the discretion of the board and the
00:28:11
The housing policy requires the increase to 20%, which all makes sense.
00:28:17
It seems like as a, you know, the development community might feel like there's no certainty behind these additional incentives.
00:28:28
Had you given any thought to that and how that might come across?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:28:31
I had not.
00:28:32
Okay.
00:28:34
And I don't know if the county attorney's office has any comment on that or not.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
00:28:41
I'm sorry, I guess I'm not understanding the question.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:28:44
So when you, I'll try to expand a little bit on it.
00:28:46
So if you are requiring, if the county is now weed, the county is requiring to go from 15 to 20 percent.
00:28:53
Just keep it at that.
00:28:55
And the incentives are designed to help the developers close the gap that is inevitable with that cost increase and the percentage increase.
00:29:07
It reads that, as I understand it, it's at the discretion of the board to determine whether or not they are, even if they meet all of these criteria, conditions may change, and at the board's discretion they may choose not to offer a grant, then really it's not an incentive for that particular developer, right?
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
00:29:28
The incentives are discretionary, they're not legally required, and obviously certainty and predictability is a virtue or benefit of the program, but it's not a legal requirement.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:29:37
Okay, got it.
00:29:44
Dr. Pethi, at the beginning, you asked us to focus on incentive time period and amount of incentives.
00:29:49
I'm curious, with your work, which has been immense over the last couple of years, I'm sure you've looked at other communities, and you've shared a little bit of insight into why 11%, why 11 or more units, and why 30 years?
00:30:04
How do you feel?
00:30:05
Do you feel that the incentive time period is adequate and that the amount of incentives are correct?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:30:15
Yes, and yes.
00:30:17
We're really trying to fill a gap, and so we're not trying to make a developer whole for providing the 20% affordable units.
00:30:24
So I do feel that the incentive is enough.
00:30:27
And also the affordability period really is in line with low-income housing tax credit and other federal finance programs and the affordability period.
00:30:37
So that really keeps that consistent and easier for staff to track across time.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:30:42
Great, that's helpful.
00:30:45
Maybe there's a math equation that I'm not following here, but if the market, the cost to build buildings, the cost to build residential increases, which it's likely to do, are the incentives designed to also increase to help with that change in market costs?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:31:09
So the incentives really looked at the calculations we did across several scenarios.
00:31:14
It really looked at the annual rent revenue for a 100% market rate unit.
00:31:22
Then we looked at that same revenue, given 15% affordable housing, what that change would be.
00:31:27
did the same thing for the 20% and then we figured out the difference between the 15% and 20% affordable units with what that gap is in that rent revenue and that is where that that's what the incentive is based on.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:31:40
So I guess the implication there is that as costs go up the rents will also go up and that will be incrementally tracking.
00:32:00
I think that hits all the highlights.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:32:03
So let's move on to... I think Mr. Murray, I want to sort of push on something that you've just asked, but I'll defer.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:32:16
Just wondering, you know, circling back, some people have brought up the
00:32:18
the topic of renovation and you know the you know if there's substantial renovation I question you know would you be willing to consider for for renovation not new construction offering for less than 11 units I think that that would be something to think about we can certainly consider that the other thing too is is thinking about
00:32:46
would all the all the units would be have to be owned by the same person, for example, imagine could a neighborhood association or HOA apply for this, you know, to apply for to do a renovation for multiple units across a neighborhood.
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:33:03
That had not been considered, actually.
00:33:06
That's something we'll think about.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:33:12
That's it.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:33:13
Great, thanks.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:33:14
So if I can, let's push a little bit about how are the various ways that we can increase the affordable rental stock in Albemarle County.
00:33:24
Let me just see if I'm on this right.
00:33:27
So I could come in and say I'm going to build a project and I don't need the county.
00:33:31
So that's one way.
00:33:32
I just come in, the largest of my heart, I'm going to build some affordable housing.
00:33:36
You're welcome.
00:33:37
I could come in and say, I'm going to build something, but I want some more density and part of getting more density, I have to sort of toe the line on affordable housing.
00:33:48
At that point there, am I still allowed to write a check?
00:33:53
So if you tell me it's 20%
00:33:57
I could put 20% of the units in.
00:33:58
Can I say, County, you know, I only want this to be of liked income people.
00:34:04
Why don't I just write you the check for the rest of the folks?
00:34:07
And I could do that, and I would go to our thing.
00:34:10
Then the piece that we're looking at here is really the incentive piece.
00:34:16
So we've got some we've got some market things where people just come in and do it if that's what their heart desires.
00:34:21
We have some people who can come in and say, I want the density.
00:34:23
Here's your X factor for the density.
00:34:26
You know what?
00:34:27
I'm going to stroke you a check for that.
00:34:29
I stroke that check once and then I go off about my business and build it.
00:34:32
And then here's the piece that we're saying.
00:34:34
If you're somewhere in the middle and you want to do an affordable, you want to do a project and some portion of it, you want some portion of it.
00:34:44
It's not necessarily related to density.
00:34:47
because that's one piece this is just I want to come and I want to see if I can get a grant to do these units however many and it could be the it could be the buy right number of units on the piece of property but I want some piece of that to be affordable that's where this incentive comes in correct or through the rezoning or through a rezoning right so what I'm pushing at is that there are multiple ways to get affordable housing in our community
00:35:13
and some of them, this is one of the arrows in the affordable housing quiver.
00:35:19
I mean, so we've just put out three.
00:35:21
This is the one that the county has sort of said we're gonna put money towards.
00:35:25
And I think what the chair was pushing at, if we hit a period of time where the county's budget takes a dip, these funds aren't coming from revenue per se.
00:35:41
what the county is doing is forgoing funds.
00:35:44
All right, so they're forgoing funds.
00:35:47
And so as long as we're okay forgoing funds, much like we do when we let certain people opt their land into ag and forestal, the county goes, yeah, you knew I was gonna go there.
00:36:00
You should have seen it coming.
00:36:01
You should have seen it coming.
00:36:02
You should have seen it coming.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:36:04
I felt it coming.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:36:04
I'm glad you said it.
00:36:06
However, there,
00:36:09
they don't have to go to the finance department to say can I have my land to forest they can just say you know what i'm putting this land in some forest land right here, so my standpoint, this is actually this is actually I think a sound.
00:36:23
is a fiscally more sound project because it's geared towards the finance part of the organization saying this is how much we can afford and this is what the impact is going to be if we allow if assuming we go along with this.
00:36:37
So I just I wanted to get those three things out there and then I had to slip in my ag forest.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:36:42
Yeah, no, that's that's a good clarification.
00:36:44
I think the one thing about foregoing the funds that would otherwise come in, it still can impact the developer.
00:36:52
if they choose to say we do not want to forego losing those funds.
00:36:57
And that's where I just think it's a little bit of an art, right?
00:37:00
Where I don't know enough about the timing of this and a potential affordable development that gives me enough information to know how this all plays out, right?
00:37:12
So how far along would the developer actually get before they find out they can get this grant or not and how much money they've sunk into the project before they find that out?
00:37:23
I did have one other question.
00:37:24
I'm sorry.
00:37:25
Part of the requirements for the grant are the provision of financial information?
00:37:30
Yes.
00:37:31
And the first one says development budget with detailed project costs.
00:37:35
Is there any, I'm not suggesting there should be, but I'm just curious, is there any insight that the county will have as to the diligence that a developer undertook during procurement of those development costs?
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:37:49
Most of the time we're going to have to go and trust that they did their finance their projections correctly right so most all programs like this do ask developers to submit their development pro forma.
00:38:03
Which includes the the projections of what it will cost annually to not just build it but to maintain it.
00:38:11
and manage it.
00:38:11
And so that's really, we're really looking at that management portion of it and what that will be costed out over 30 years so we can make those determinations.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:38:19
Got it.
00:38:20
Great.
00:38:20
Thank you.
00:38:21
Okay.
00:38:22
Let's just do a quick round two and go back.
00:38:24
And this time we'll talk about general recommendations and thoughts that you might wish to pass along to the board.
00:38:31
And if you have any comments on incentive time period and amount of incentives this time, where did I start last time?
00:38:36
I think I started there.
00:38:37
Let's start with Commissioner Moore.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:38:44
I think it's a long process that is an important arrow in the quiver of arrows we have to work toward housing affordability.
00:38:54
I like a lot of things about it.
00:38:56
Again, I think some of the pieces about if we do more than 20% affordable, is there some other increase to that 11% tax, not abatement, but grant?
00:39:12
and also if there's some optional opt-in where a developer wanted to just sort of be a part of this with fewer than 11 units you know is that a possibility as well those are relatively minor questions I think overall it's a really nice idea I do think as the board continues its work I hope that we continue to
00:39:30
put those other arrows in our quiver into the bow and get ready to fire them.
00:39:35
And I think some of the things are pretty big ones, things like strongly considering upzoning the broad swaths of single family home limited units that we have across the development areas where R1 and R2 can only build single family homes, where we might consider upzoning all that to the equivalent of R4, much like the city has.
00:39:57
also looking at our boundaries of the development area, which we've talked about some here and there, and also looking at county land, where we might be able to build some homes for particularly public employees, but again, people who work for a living and make far less than the 123,000 AMI these days.
00:40:17
So that's my broad strokes comments.
00:40:19
Otherwise, I think this is a nice arrow in the quiver.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:40:22
Great.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:40:22
Thank you.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:40:23
Commissioner Bevins.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:40:24
Thank you, Chair.
00:40:25
So I am, everyone heard my gentle rant about thinking that the county should put funds behind rental properties and not ownership.
00:40:35
And so I'm very pleased about that, that that's where we're stepping out first, because I do think that's the place where we have the longest impact in making the housing stock affordable in this community is with rental units.
00:40:49
And so I'm glad about that.
00:40:50
One thing I didn't understand is that I think, and I tried to find the note, I have this note here about what happens
00:40:56
at each renewal.
00:40:58
So if I do 30 years and I want to continue for another 30 years, is that a renewal period that allows me to be the 11 of the halves to still take advantage of this?
00:41:06
And
Stacy Pethia
Assistant Director of Housing
00:41:08
Yes, we did not put that in there.
00:41:12
The thinking behind the 30-year period is that that's when compliance periods run out.
00:41:17
At 30 years, you're probably going to look to see renovating your units.
00:41:21
So that could be a possibility.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:41:24
So, Chair, I think, you know, yes, there's pieces that can always be sort of
00:41:30
messed with a bit, but if we can get this into the arsenal of things that helps to sort of push the idea that affordable housing, affordable rental units is something that the county is supporting, then I would be joyful over that.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:41:49
Great.
00:41:50
Thank you.
00:41:51
Commissioner.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:41:53
Yeah, so I do think it'd be great if there'd be a way to weight this to encourage renovation over new construction.
00:42:02
Otherwise, I think a lot of this is great.
00:42:04
I do wonder what happens when this incentive program clashes with other comprehensive goals and incentive programs.
00:42:13
For example, imagine if you had an area in Crozet where you had a historic house or houses that would be, I'd hate to see an incentive given to tear down a historic house in order to build new affordable housing.
00:42:30
So, you know, how does that play?
00:42:31
It could be as simple as a one line in there in the policy saying consistency with the comprehensive plan, you know.
00:42:41
So that's another thing I thought there, you know, I think there's some larger conversations that could be had.
00:42:46
I don't support expanding the growth area, but I think there are some options that, you know, outside of this discussion about are there things that could be done in the rural areas in terms of different kinds of housing?
00:42:59
And I think there's some real opportunities there that I would like to discuss with my colleagues at some other point.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:43:08
Great.
00:43:09
Thank you.
00:43:09
Mr. Claver?
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:43:11
Don't have much additional to add, but I wonder is it worth thinking about the role of student housing in this conversation and what direction you decide to take there, but this thing is worth talking about.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:43:24
Thanks.
00:43:26
Commissioner Carrazana.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
00:43:29
I gotta say that everything that I would add has already been said, so I don't want to be repetitive.
00:43:36
I'll just add a plus one on the
00:43:39
looking at renovations and how we can incorporate that into the program, because there's a huge need, and that's about maintaining our current stock, which we know that we're losing current stock, so it's not always a net gain when we have new construction.
00:43:55
Great, thanks.
00:43:56
Mr. Firehawk.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:43:58
I agree with my colleagues and as we were talking I was on a more semi-humorous note thinking about my 20s and paying 50% of my income to rent and eating a lot of peanut butter and ramen noodles so I really appreciate anything we can do for our you know our next generation and it is true that student housing really drives up the cost of rentals around here and as someone who's an employer in the area and about to I'm advertising for several new jobs
00:44:25
you know even though we pay well some of our employees would even qualify so I really appreciate all that you've done and I also appreciate that you always give us a straight answer like I don't know or I haven't thought of that it's really appreciated I know you put a lot of work into this so thank you great thanks and I just had a couple of additional comments one is
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:44:50
what I think I've heard from information we got through emails and then also here is just as a recap sort of review the grant loan commitment between now and and the board of supervisors just to try to understand if there's language issues there with Virginia housing and how that all plays out just to make sure we check that box the question of shifting if the if the affordability increases incrementally
00:45:20
from 20 to 30% or to 40% just that issue as well and kind of smoking that out and understanding exactly what and if there are ways to add incremental incentives in that situation.
00:45:33
I think that this is an evergreen process right and just underscoring what I think Commissioner Moore was getting at which is lots of arrows right there's lots this is it feels like and I know you probably want it to feel like you've made a big checkbox here which you really have so congratulations and thanks for all the work I think we also realize this is an ongoing issue that will continue to have focus and I would just encourage us to not lose momentum as much as possible and I know you share that that same thought
00:46:02
and restoration over new construction being priority and then also consistency with the comp plan I think was a great add as well.
00:46:10
I think that's everything.
00:46:13
Any other comments from the Commission?
00:46:18
All right.
00:46:18
Thank you very much.
00:46:19
Thank you.
00:46:31
Okay, with that, we will move on to public hearing items, beginning with ZMA 2023-00011, 4102 Dickerson Road, and I'll ask staff for the staff report.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
00:46:53
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
00:46:55
Ed is here to provide us a report.
00:46:58
Thank you.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
00:47:18
There you go.
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
00:47:20
All right.
00:47:23
Good evening, everyone.
00:47:24
My name is Sid Shoff.
00:47:25
I'm a senior planner with the Albemarle County Planning Division and the Community Development Department.
00:47:30
Tonight, I'll be giving staff's presentation for ZMA 2023-114102 Dickerson Road.
00:47:37
This is a proposed rezoning of a 2.22 acre lot from rural areas to light industry.
00:47:44
The subject property of this rezoning is located north of the city of Charlottesville near the Charlottesville Albemarle Airport.
00:47:51
It is located at 4102 Dickerson Road, which is north of Airport Road, south of Chris Green Lake Park, west of US 29 North and east of the airport.
00:48:02
The tax map parcel is 32-9H and the entire parcel is approximately 2.22 acres.
00:48:09
It contains an existing one-story single-family dwelling unit and an existing detached garage.
00:48:17
The property is zoned rural areas and is shown as white on the map.
00:48:20
The parcels to the north and northwest are also zoned rural areas where the properties to the north are mostly single family residential, while the property to the west is the Charlottesville Albemarle Airport.
00:48:31
To the south and southeast, the majority of the properties are zoned light industry.
00:48:35
Lastly, the parcel to the east across Dickerson Road is zoned planned development industrial park and is owned by the University of Virginia Foundation.
00:48:44
And then lastly, the Airport Impact Area Overlay District also affects this property due to its proximity to the airport.
00:48:52
The subject property is located within the community of Hollymead and the PLACES 29 Master Plan.
00:48:57
The future land use designates light industrial, which calls for manufacturing from prepared materials, processing, fabrication, assembly, and distribution of products.
00:49:09
For this application, the applicant is requesting to rezone the entire 2.22 acre property from rural areas to light industry.
00:49:18
If the rezoning were to be approved, this is a concept plan of what the future site could look like.
00:49:23
The applicant's proposing for the existing home and garage to be utilized as office and storage space.
00:49:28
Both structures currently meet the light industry setback requirements for front minimum setback of 10 feet and the side and rear setback of 50 feet if it is adjacent to a parcel that is zoned rural areas.
00:49:39
The ordinance also requires a 30 foot use buffer if it is adjacent to a district that is not commercial or industrial.
00:49:45
The applicant will be required to provide a 30 foot use buffer that consists of landscape screening along its northern property line to meet this requirement.
00:49:53
Additionally, the concept plan illustrates a proposed parking area and proposed one story warehouse.
00:49:58
These would be subject to a site plan review by internal and external staff to ensure all codes and regulations are being met.
00:50:07
Currently the site is one of six parcels in this area that's located in the development area that's not connected to the Albemarle County Service Authority jurisdictional area for water and sewer.
00:50:16
The site is currently served by Well and Septic Systems.
00:50:21
This is a map provided by the Albemarle County Service Authority that illustrates the existing water and sewer connections in the area.
00:50:27
The subject property is highlighted as yellow in the northwest corner of this map.
00:50:31
and the closest connections to water and sewer are approximately 700 feet away.
00:50:35
Per County Code Subsection 18-26.2, a special use permit could be necessary if the site is not served by public sewer or water and it consumes more than 400 gallons of water per site acre per day.
00:50:49
In sum, there are two factors favorable.
00:50:51
The first, the request is consistent with the county's growth management policy and the recommendations in the Places 29 master plan.
00:50:59
The second is that impacts to neighboring properties are not expected.
00:51:02
There's one factor that's unfavorable, and it's that the property is not connected to the Albemarle County Service Authority water and sewer facilities.
00:51:10
With that being said, staff recommends approval of zoning map amendment request ZMA 2023-11-4102 Dickerson Road.
00:51:20
And I'd like to open this up for any questions from the Planning Commission.
00:51:23
Thank you.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:51:24
Great.
00:51:24
Thanks.
00:51:24
Great presentation.
00:51:26
Any questions from the Commission?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:51:28
Could you walk us through the process of expanding the jurisdiction?
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
00:51:33
Expanding the ACSA jurisdictional area?
00:51:36
Is Rebecca here?
00:51:37
Would you like to explain that process?
Rebecca Ragsdale
Planning Manager
00:51:47
Hi, Rebecca Ragsdale, planning manager, and I've been assisting Sid with this review.
00:51:55
apologize for any audio issues.
00:51:59
So the Board of Supervisors would have to amend the jurisdictional area to authorize water and sewer service.
00:52:05
This is a kind of a unique spot in the development area where we have a gap.
00:52:11
Typically, most of the development area is designated for water and sewer service.
00:52:15
So it would be a Board of Supervisors action to update that jurisdictional area map to first authorize the water and sewer service and
00:52:25
I think with some rezonings in that area we've considered sort of a comprehensive look at those six parcels there rather than having it an applicant initiated case-by-case approach that answer your question it does but could we also I mean is is it within our powers also include as as a separate motion as part of this to recommend to the board of supervisors that they do that
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:52:50
couldn't hear you.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:52:51
Oh, would it be possible for us also to consider a separate motion in addition to this to recommend that to the Board of Supervisors?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:53:01
That they examine this as an area for expansion of the service area?
00:53:05
Yes.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
00:53:06
Well, the Planning Commission could, but that's not really before the Planning Commission.
00:53:09
I mean, the process, as Ms.
00:53:11
Bragsdale indicated, is really a Board of Supervisors issue rather than a Planning Commission issue.
00:53:15
But the Planning Commission is free to make whatever recommendations it feels appropriate.
00:53:20
If that's something the Commission is interested in doing, I would suggest that it be in the form of a separate motion than what's before the Commission tonight.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:53:28
Motion or a recommendation.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
00:53:30
Correct.
00:53:31
But the commission ought to consider the application that's before the commission on its own merits before addressing other issues.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:53:45
Great.
00:53:45
Thank you.
00:53:47
Any other questions?
00:53:48
Yes, ma'am.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:53:49
I have a question.
00:53:51
In the illustration, it says the setback has to be 50 feet from the property, but then there's this proposed gravel parking lot that goes all the way to the edge.
00:53:59
It didn't make sense to me.
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
00:54:01
Yeah, so I can go back to that slide as well.
00:54:04
This is just a conceptual plan of what it could look like, and so I added at the end of that that the proposed gravel area and proposed one-story warehouse would be subject to a site plan review, and that's where we would ensure that everything would be compliant with our code and meet those requirements.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:54:22
So they cannot have their gravel parking area going to the parking line?
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
00:54:25
Yes, that's correct.
00:54:26
It cannot go into the 50-foot setback line.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:54:30
Seems like it would be easier and less confusing to amend that before taking it to the board.
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
00:54:35
I will make sure the applicant does that then.
00:54:37
Thank you.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:54:38
Thank you.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:54:43
Any more questions?
00:54:44
Commissioner Bivins?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:54:45
So I noticed that there are vehicles on the property in that parking area right now.
00:54:50
And so perhaps when the applicant comes or whoever's representing the applicant, they can tell us what those vehicles that are there now.
00:54:57
And then here's this other piece that just continues to confound me.
00:55:02
And so you've managed to do a really good presentation, but also to confound me.
00:55:07
So nowhere in our ordinances
00:55:11
nowhere in our ordinances is anything that defers or gives legal power or legal standing to Monticello about its viewshed.
00:55:24
There's nothing in our ordinances.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
00:55:26
Counsel, am I correct on that?
00:55:28
So the only area in which the Monticello viewshed comes up is in the acquisition of development, excuse me, the acquisition of conservation easements program.
00:55:35
It's not a factor in rezoning applications.
00:55:38
Thank you, Counselor.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:55:39
So I would appreciate it if we could come to a point where we no longer say, we no longer say that a piece of property is or is not in the Monticello viewshed.
00:55:52
because it does not matter, and nor should it matter at this point.
00:55:57
If it's something that the supervisors would like us to do as a county, then they should go ahead and put that the Monticello viewshare should be part of the county ordinances, just like the water, just like you have to have a certain amount of setbacks from the edge of your property.
00:56:13
But right now it's a thing that has an impact on the development and the built environment in our county that I don't think that an organization that's got over $300 million in assets should be given for free.
00:56:27
When you have $15 million worth of revenue in 2022, you should not be given the right to say what the built environment is for free.
00:56:37
When I lived in Manhattan or in a place that was more urban, if an organization wanted, and you're getting this, but this is not about you.
00:56:44
This is about the text here.
00:56:46
If an organization wanted to deal with an air right, it bought the air right.
00:56:53
Air rights have value.
00:56:56
And an organization that's sitting on over $300 million worth of assets has the opportunity, has the assets to buy viewsheds if that's something that they feel that they should preserve.
00:57:09
So I would ask, as I ask whenever I see this come on here and I have my little push button on this, that we stop saying this is in the Monticello or not in the Monticello viewshed because it is not relevant
00:57:22
when someone comes before us for any kind of special use, ZMA, anything like that.
00:57:28
And in fact, for me at least, I would like to be able to say, I'd like you to come to me and allow me to say that you need to deal with Julian Bivins if you want to have any kind of noise in the next five, in the 10 miles around me.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
00:57:45
I think this is appreciate the heads up on that and the comments.
00:57:55
I think it might be a good thing for us to talk about as with staff and continue to have that dialogue.
00:58:02
So thank you.
00:58:04
Any other questions?
00:58:08
No?
00:58:08
Great.
00:58:09
Okay.
00:58:09
Well, with that, I will open up the public hearing and look to the applicant for their presentation, if there is one.
00:58:21
And as you're coming up, just as a reminder, you will have a total of 10 minutes.
00:58:26
The light will stay green.
00:58:28
And then when it goes to yellow, if you could just follow or kind of finish up your most pertinent points, that'd be great.
SPEAKER_17
00:58:33
My name is Darren Jackalone, and I'm one of the partners of
00:58:37
4102.
00:58:37
I also own the property next door 16 years ago that we rezoned to Light Industrial at Rooftop Services Office.
00:58:46
So basically what's happened is the guy next door, there's a family living there, it's all in well and septic just like our property is as well.
00:58:54
He wanted to sell.
00:58:55
We offered to purchase it and that's what we've done and with the intent of trying to rezone it
00:59:01
to expand our business.
00:59:02
Basically, it's, you know, contractor home improvement.
00:59:06
We're not looking to manufacture anything.
00:59:09
We're not looking to, you know, we don't use a lot of water in our, you know, their house has two front doors.
00:59:16
It's really kind of unique.
00:59:18
at this particular point we're basically looking to just convert the house into office space which would probably be four offices the garage use it for storing materials some equipment potentially put a warehouse in the back again for just storing you know it's a contractor whether it's a landscaper or something of that nature
00:59:43
it's been a challenge to stay in Albemarle County I mean everybody else is going outside so it's kind of like I want to kind of stay here it makes sense to okay it's if you rezone it it kind of increases the value of the property I've got to run a business there I'm going to pay taxes there it kind of helps anybody and everybody obviously we you know we have to stay below the airspace for the airport and things of that nature okay it's just a matter of
01:00:10
trying to have more space for I'm going to probably expand our business into solar shingles and the gutter division over there and then potentially expand it, you know, rent out part of the building and warehouse to other contractors that might I can try to keep in the county.
01:00:27
So that's pretty much the long and short of it.
01:00:31
you know I'm on you know it's on well and septic now I mean four people were living in the house um what's the water usage basic on four people living in the house when you have a washer dryer you've got dishwasher you've got showers and then I have three people going to be in office okay even if I went to 10 people in office they're still not going to use the amount of water that you have in a single-family home I mean so that's kind of where we're at at this particular point so great
01:01:00
Thank you.
01:01:01
So I did reach out to the service authority and they basically said, okay, this is what it's involved.
01:01:06
You got to hire an engineer.
01:01:08
This is the drawing.
01:01:09
You're going to have to hire an engineer.
01:01:11
They'll work with the county on getting it approved.
01:01:14
Once it's approved, then you need to get estimates on contractors to do all the work.
01:01:19
You're easily a hundred thousand dollars for me to get water and sewer brought over to my property.
01:01:27
I mean now I have one and a half over there but yes the neighbors would like to have water but once I tell them how much it's going to cost right I'm on my own and why you know do I need to pay the hundred and hundred fifty thousand to get water over there and then other people I mean it's just
01:01:45
so my take is it's almost like if I if I need to do it if I'm if I'm manufacturing product that I need an excess amount of water or I'm going to be using a lot of sewage then it would kind of make sense but I'm not so sure for a hundred thousand dollars so great thank you any other comments no awesome so before you go any questions for the applicant uh yes
01:02:13
thank you sir um so is it safe to say you're not going to be washing vehicles or doing maintenance on vehicles and equipment and things like that airport auto does all of our maintenance and um and yeah I mean we should be washing our vehicles more often but no right now we go down the sheets or we go down to the car there's enough car washes in town now so thank you
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:02:37
Mr. Rivins.
01:02:38
So good to see you.
01:02:41
So the vehicles I saw now behind the property, they had your logo on it, which was what we went, well, this is a different guy than rooftop, but okay.
01:02:51
So that is, you are part of that.
01:02:52
Yeah, we just put a couple vehicles over there.
01:02:54
Okay.
01:02:55
So in your fabrication, for instance, I know you do metal roofs.
01:02:58
Where do you do those?
01:02:59
And where would that work be done to the extent that it needs to be done?
SPEAKER_17
01:03:06
so we have trailers and there's a trailer next door that has a pan machine in it we have rolls of thousand pound rolls of copper metal that we put in the pan machines and they go out and run and run off just like a gutter machine so and our facility we basically do we don't go to the valley we do some in Rutgersville we do you know we're we're right in this area we've been here since 2000 so most of all of our work is Albemarle County
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:03:37
So my point for that is that anything that you manufacture now, you do it within an enclosed environment.
01:03:43
You're going to have to go to the microphone and say who you are.
SPEAKER_05
01:03:46
The answer you're looking for is we take the trailer to the job.
01:03:50
I'm Thomas Martin.
01:03:51
I'm half owner of the property.
01:03:54
I think
01:03:56
We take the trailer to the job site and we don't make the metal, we just roll it into a different form and put it right up on the roof at the homeowner's house.
01:04:05
We don't manufacture anything out of our shopper.
SPEAKER_17
01:04:10
We get sheets of metal and we fabricate it and make up flashing components for the roof, but besides that, yeah.
01:04:17
Thank you.
01:04:17
Thank you, Chair.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:04:19
Any other questions from the Commission?
01:04:23
All right.
01:04:23
Thank you very much.
01:04:24
Okay.
01:04:27
I'll now open it up for any comments from the public attending in person.
01:04:32
All right, seeing none, Madam Clerk, is anyone online?
01:04:41
All right, I will close the public hearing and open it up to the Commission to for discussion or for a motion.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:04:51
so chair can I just clarify with staff so it's just is under on page six and thank you for for paginating your pages that's very helpful thank you for that oh I say I mean we know sometimes the pages on pages is very helpful come on now
01:05:06
man I'm getting old I need a page um so when you say staff has identified the following factors which are unfavorable to this request you're not am I am I correct in saying that you're not suggesting that that's a condition of the of the Planning Commission saying yes to the request that was that's just an observation as opposed to oh okay that's all I was trying to figure out but please I'll listen I'll listen
01:05:35
yes that is correct that gets to your point that this is not a condition of having public sewer public water coming to the place it's a recommendation that it's a recommendation that particularly if if if if Rebecca is saying that there's a bigger project coming there that that may get swept up into it so we can say yes
01:06:00
and I think the notes will the notes will indicate that we would like that to be as minimal cost as possible for that particular port, but not a condition, but not a condition of approval.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:06:14
Great.
01:06:15
Anybody you'd like to make a motion?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
01:06:18
I'll make a motion.
01:06:21
I move to the Planning Commission recommend approval of ZMA 2023 00011 at 4102 Dickerson Road for the reasons stated in the staff report second great any discussion
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:06:38
All right, Madam Clerk, could you call the roll, please?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:06:40
Yes.
01:06:41
Ms.
01:06:41
Firehock?
01:06:42
Aye.
01:06:42
Mr. Carrazana?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:06:43
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:06:44
Mr. Missel?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:06:45
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:06:46
Mr. Clayborne?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:06:47
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:06:48
Mr. Murray?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:06:48
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:06:49
Mr. Bivins?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:06:50
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:06:51
Mr. Moore?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:06:52
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:06:52
Thank you.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:06:53
Great.
01:06:54
Thank you.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:06:55
Thank you, everyone.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:06:57
Thanks very much.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:06:58
And please know, that was not directed to you.
01:07:01
It was directed to what was on the page.
Syd Shoaf
Senior Planner I
01:07:03
I understand it.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:07:05
All right, we will move on to public hearing item B, SP 2023-6, Arbor Life Tree Service.
01:07:16
And could I have the staff report?
01:07:18
Thank you.
01:07:22
Yes, give me one second.
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:07:40
Good evening, commissioners.
01:07:41
My name is Kevin McCollum.
01:07:43
I'm a senior planner with the Planning Division of Alamar County Community Development.
01:07:48
I'll be giving staff's presentation for SP2023.6 Arbor Life Professional Tree Care.
01:07:55
This is a special use permit for a landscape contractor in the rural areas.
01:08:02
So first, just to give a little background, landscape contractors were added to the rural areas district as a use permitted by special use permit in September of 2020.
01:08:12
I believe this application before us tonight is the first Planning Commission public hearing for this type of use.
01:08:21
What that zoning text amendment did is add landscape services and storage of landscape materials.
01:08:27
in the rural areas on parcels of three acres or more as a use permitted by special use permit.
01:08:35
So landscape contractors who qualify as home occupations are still permitted, but this ZTA gave them an option to expand to a special use permit if they grew beyond what's considered a home occupation.
01:08:49
In that staff report, there were a list of items for us to consider when reviewing new landscape contractors, and that included things such as storage materials, building locations, setbacks, access to the parcel, anticipated traffic, hours of operation, and information on noise and smell.
01:09:14
The subject property is located at 163 Patterson Mill Lane.
01:09:19
It's just outside the Crozet development area.
01:09:21
Properties on the southern side of Interstate 64 across Patterson Mill Lane labeled 71-39 on the image is a VDOT owned maintenance and storage facility.
01:09:35
To the south and east along Patterson Mill Lane, there are some residential properties.
01:09:44
On the screen here is the existing condition sheet that comes from the application materials.
01:09:49
The subject property includes an existing metal farm building with a surrounding gravel parking area.
01:09:55
There's a fence along the front edge of Patterson Mill Lane and to the rear is Interstate 64 and an existing tree line.
01:10:08
Here's a Google Street View.
01:10:11
screenshot to show those existing conditions.
01:10:14
This is from the front edge along Patterson Mill Lane.
01:10:17
You can see that existing fence, the building, the gravel parking area that surrounds the building and 64 is just beyond that tree line in the rear of the property.
01:10:30
Here is the conceptual plan.
01:10:32
The proposal is a landscape contractor business that would use the existing building on the site for equipment and would have on site storage areas for vehicles equipment wood chips mulch and other large wood material.
01:10:47
The existing building will remain and they have added some parking spaces and have identified where those storage areas will be.
01:10:55
The applicant's narrative describes daily use of the property as a location where employees will arrive and park their personal vehicles before leaving the site in company equipment to use during the day.
01:11:08
So the associated equipment and storage materials will be kept on site, but a large majority of the work will actually be done off site.
01:11:20
So the special use permit was reviewed under the factors for consideration as outlined in the zoning ordinance and generally staff believes that the proposed landscape contractor will not be detrimental to adjacent parcels will not change the character of the nearby area is in harmony with the zoning district is consistent with a comp plan.
01:11:41
However, we do think there are a few conditions to ensure that these factors are met.
01:11:46
So we have proposed four total conditions.
01:11:49
I'll just go through them real quickly.
01:11:50
The first is the standard condition we use so that development of the property will be in general accord with the conceptual plan that they have provided.
01:12:01
This condition ensures that the buildings, parking areas, and storage areas will be in the same general location as they have shown on their plan.
01:12:10
The second condition is to ensure that proposed use will not have negative impacts on the abutting property to the south, which is residential.
01:12:19
So staff believes that the proposed landscape contractor use has industrial characteristics, and we believe the industrial use buffer requirements in the ordinance should apply.
01:12:29
So these are the same buffer requirements that Sid talked about in his presentation previously.
01:12:37
So this means a 50-foot building setback, a 30-foot use buffer, and any additional necessary screening along that property line of TMP 71-37J, so that property just to the south.
01:12:53
The concept plan that they have provided demonstrates that compliance with these regulations is feasible.
01:13:02
The last two conditions condition three is based on comments from the Virginia Department of Health and also building inspections and it's to require a bathroom on the property for employees.
01:13:13
The last conditions based on recommendations from our engineering division and it's to require a VSMP plan application that addresses all prior site disturbance that was done on the site incrementally.
01:13:27
So to conclude, staff has found the following positive aspects.
01:13:31
The proposed use is consistent with the comprehensive plan and no detrimental impacts to joining properties are anticipated.
01:13:38
Staff has no additional concerns that weren't addressed by our proposed conditions.
01:13:45
So to conclude, staff's recommending approval of this special use permit with the conditions as recommended in the staff report.
01:13:52
With that, that concludes my presentation.
01:13:54
Are there any questions for staff?
01:13:56
I also have
01:13:57
motions on my last slide.
01:13:59
Thank you.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:14:00
Great.
01:14:00
Thanks very much.
01:14:01
Great report.
01:14:03
Any questions from the commission?
01:14:04
Commissioner Claiborne, start with you.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:14:11
Thank you, staff.
01:14:12
I have two questions for clarification.
01:14:15
So excuse me if they're silly, but under the planning and zoning history,
01:14:20
The second item, the WPO, I just want to confirm that last sentence that says engineering is recommended, a condition of approval.
01:14:27
That's past history.
01:14:28
That's not for us today.
01:14:30
Correct?
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:14:31
The recommendation of a new VSMP is how we got to the condition of approval that we're suggesting in the staff report.
01:14:40
Basically, my understanding is that
01:14:43
disturbance has occurred on the site incrementally, and all of those previous disturbances were under 10,000 square feet, so they did not trigger the need for an application.
01:14:54
That WPO plan, I believe, was for fill, but was not for the disturbance.
01:15:00
So
01:15:01
Since this is going to the board, engineering is recommending that we attach a condition that they now get a VSMP plan to account for all of that previous disturbance that wasn't previously permitted.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:15:15
Okay, so it is applicable to right now then.
01:15:18
yes okay correct all right it threw me off it was under history but i got you and then the last question i had um you make reference to there's no well or septic on site when the condition starts to speak the sewer do we not need anything around the water piece like
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:15:36
Yeah, so staff is recommending that there's adequate well and septic on the property for the employees.
01:15:43
The building was permitted as a farm building, so I believe there's no water or sewer connection.
01:15:50
So staff thinks, you know, given the number of employees that would be coming to the site, that a permanent bathroom water facility is appropriate for this use.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:16:03
And I agree.
01:16:04
I just didn't see anything.
01:16:05
Did I miss that in the conditions?
01:16:07
I saw septic.
01:16:09
I didn't see well.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:16:12
Number three just says septic, right?
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:16:13
Yeah, it just says septic.
01:16:14
But my question is, shouldn't we be saying something about you must have a well to provide the water or some mechanism or vehicle to get permanent water there?
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:16:29
Sure.
01:16:31
We can certainly add that.
01:16:33
Planning Commission feels that's appropriate.
01:16:36
I think, you know, VDH approval will be required.
01:16:40
I think in their comments, they had mentioned alternatives.
01:16:43
And this condition is really to address that we didn't want any half measures when it comes to toilets or, you know, bathroom facilities.
01:16:50
So this isn't addressing the water, but I think we could definitely consider that when going to the board.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:16:56
Mr. Ragsdale, did you have a question or comment?
01:17:03
I stand up and wave unless you're just saying hi.
Rebecca Ragsdale
Planning Manager
01:17:10
Sorry if I was out of turn.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:17:11
No worries.
Rebecca Ragsdale
Planning Manager
01:17:12
So with conditions for special use permits, we don't want to duplicate anything that's already covered by another code.
01:17:20
So well and septic will be required in this case.
01:17:23
We didn't want any alternative measures for septic.
01:17:25
There aren't really any other alternative measures for
01:17:28
Wells, but we can clarify that.
01:17:30
So that's why these conditions were recommended, because there are things we want to either prohibit or capture that weren't captured prior, like with the VSMP plan.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:17:42
That sounds great to me.
01:17:43
Only ask that question because the leading sentence on condition three doesn't read as you just indicated just then.
Rebecca Ragsdale
Planning Manager
01:17:52
Okay, we can work on clarifying that.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:17:54
Thank you.
01:17:55
Can I ask a follow-on to that while she's there?
01:17:58
So what was the reluctance about, you said, alternative measures or alternative technologies, like, for example, they could not put a composting toilet on the site like they have at Ivy Creek Natural Area?
Rebecca Ragsdale
Planning Manager
01:18:11
Well, I think that, you know, with the commercial use, we were reluctant to allow, I mean, certainly not anything like pump and haul.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:18:20
Like what?
01:18:21
Pump and Hall.
Rebecca Ragsdale
Planning Manager
01:18:24
So I think we thought that traditional on-site facilities were appropriate for a use approaching commercial in nature.
01:18:35
We can revisit the composting toilet, but it's not like a recreational use.
01:18:40
It's a
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:18:41
No, but like the composting toilets at Ivy Creek serve quite a few people per day and surely no more than what the contractors would be using.
01:18:49
And I guess, you know, because it would be less polluting than putting in a septic field.
Rebecca Ragsdale
Planning Manager
01:18:54
Right.
01:18:54
So these are draft conditions.
01:18:55
And as always, you all have insights, like you said, that we need to consider.
01:18:59
And Mr. Sivavoto, did you want to, our zoning administrator may have something else on the topic.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:19:05
Then I'll play.
Bart Svoboda
Zoning Administrator
01:19:08
Bart Swoboda, Zoning Administrator, Albemarle County.
01:19:13
So the composting toilets, if we get to that question, it's a disposal system approved by a permanent, approved by Virginia Department of Health.
01:19:20
That would qualify.
01:19:22
That would what?
01:19:22
That would qualify as a permanent system on site.
01:19:26
What we wanted to get away from was a pump and haul
01:19:29
and sure I understand but if we like so if we had composting toilets we don't need a septic field correct that would make sense as a condition right well as the condition so what I'm getting is the language in the conditions as a permanent on-site sewage disposal system which is either septic or composting okay so Lee also leaves them more options or let's say they do some soils work and there's other things that they need to do sure engineered system so that condition I believe covers everything
01:19:58
that you're concerned about.
01:19:59
It gives them the option to do any of those.
01:20:02
And then with the well, because there's other codes that require potable water, we wouldn't put that in as a condition.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:20:09
You would not, you said?
Bart Svoboda
Zoning Administrator
01:20:11
No, because we have other codes.
01:20:12
The USBC Health Department codes would require that we have a potable water source.
01:20:18
So by default, that's already required.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:21
It's kind of hard to hear.
01:20:22
I don't know if the lights are making a lot of noise.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:30
If I understood correctly, what you were saying is that you would not make a recommendation on the water because there are other ordinances, there are other ways in which we can get to having permanent water there, correct?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:20:42
Great, thank you.
01:20:43
Commissioner Carrazana, you had a question?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
01:20:45
Yes, clarification on the question.
01:20:47
If you can go back, I think it's perhaps condition number two, or is that with the setbacks?
01:20:54
Yeah.
01:20:54
So,
01:20:56
the 50 feet is only in that L site line between 37 J and and
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:21:06
Yeah, that's correct.
01:21:07
On the bottom of the screen, the southernmost property line, and then the one kind of to the east besides 71-37.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
01:21:13
It's not required by 64.
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:21:16
Correct.
01:21:17
The 64 is right-of-way, and that right-of-way is kind of along Patterson Mill as well.
01:21:24
So the only abutting rural area lot line is that one immediately adjacent to 7137J.
01:21:30
Okay.
01:21:30
Thank you.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:21:35
Can I have a follow-up to that question?
01:21:37
Sure.
01:21:37
So the building setback and no parking closer than 50, they could still put piles of mulch closer to those setbacks, right?
01:21:47
Those types of things, even though they show it on this plan, I know in a different location, there's nothing that would limit them using right up to the property line.
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:21:57
The way the first condition's worded, we are limiting them to those storage areas that they've shown on the concept plan.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:22:04
Got it.
01:22:06
yeah got it so they couldn't be within they have to be in that area they couldn't be there okay thank you any other questions I just asked do we so if we if we look at property um 37 j
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:22:23
Do we know if, since I know we probably didn't do a community, we didn't do a community meeting on this down there, according to the notes, but do we know if there's been any conversation between the applicant and the residents of 37J?
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:22:39
I don't, I think they can answer that when they come up to present, but we did have a community meeting.
01:22:46
It was held at Wester and Albemarle, I believe.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:22:50
uh it was back in August of 2023 but there wasn't any not a lot of attendance there were a few folks okay because if i'm correct across the directly across the street from 37k that's a vdot 7139 is a vdot whatever you call those that's correct vdot things right okay so it's a vdot yard i guess one would call it yeah great any other questions
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:23:17
I just want to underscore one thing that's pretty clear in the proposal it reads a landscape contractor that would utilize an existing building on the site so there won't be any additional buildings correct they'll be limited to what's shown on the conceptual plan they do show a smaller building their new 15 by 30 air building in the storage area
01:23:47
Oh, I see it now.
01:23:48
I missed that.
01:23:49
Okay.
01:23:50
Got it.
01:23:50
So that's a small shed.
01:23:52
Yeah.
01:23:54
And on-site storage areas for vehicles, equipment, wood chips, mulch, and larger wood material before transport.
01:24:00
Can you just, just so we're super clear, can you point those areas out?
01:24:04
I see the wood chip.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:24:06
There's parking.
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:24:07
Yeah, they're mostly on the eastern side of the building.
01:24:11
And in the southern side, there's a few, you know, parking spaces proposed.
01:24:17
kind of as you enter into the property to the left there's five parking spaces proposed and four adjacent to the building and then all that storage mostly is in the rear of the site kind of near that existing tree line there's a log storage area and then a new vehicle storage area in the rear that's probably the largest storage area and then also wood chips that are closer to the Patterson mill frontage
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:24:47
Got it.
01:24:47
And then the new wood log, the new log storage area is in the front adjacent.
01:24:54
Yes.
01:24:56
And then the critical slopes are shown with the hatched area on the right, right?
01:25:01
I believe that's correct.
01:25:03
And the existing tree line does not, unless you tell me I'm wrong, does not look like it's going to be impacted.
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:25:10
that's correct and we'll review screening when they they also need a site development plan we'll definitely be reviewing screening interstate 64 is entrance corridor so you know making sure that there is a minimum adequate existing tree line and they'll have to add additional screening where necessary great thank you all right no more questions from the Commission if not I'll open up the public hearing and call for the applicant's report
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:25:44
Good evening.
01:25:44
I think you know the drill, but if you state your name and you have 10 minutes to present.
SPEAKER_10
01:25:48
So it's Monica Madison.
01:25:50
I'm project manager for Arbor Life and Kevin, if you could
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:25:54
Yep.
01:25:55
I have her presentation slides.
01:25:57
I'll pull them up once.
SPEAKER_10
01:25:58
So just so you know, when you were looking at the other thing, property 37J is actually owned by the applicant as well.
01:26:04
So he owns that.
01:26:05
So that's the screening is not an issue.
01:26:08
And when the previous tenant was living there, she asked him to remove all bushes because she wanted her site of the mountain and she's 85.
01:26:17
So that's why there was no buffer because she asked for it to be removed.
01:26:21
It was quite a jungle before.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:26:24
Great.
01:26:24
Thank you.
SPEAKER_10
01:26:25
So if we can, can we go to the second?
01:26:27
Sorry, Kevin.
01:26:28
So this just shows you the context of the neighborhood.
01:26:30
So you're looking on the first top corner is 250, looking at 64.
01:26:36
And then to the right, you see the little country road, that's Patterson Mill.
01:26:40
Here's the approach up to Patterson Mill for 163.
01:26:43
And then obviously on the right is
01:26:47
164, which is in the picture that you see at the bottom of the screen on the left, that's VDOT's maintenance facility.
01:26:54
And then the little black fence with the driveway, that is 37J.
01:27:01
so this just shows you the context of what's going to be occurring in the neighborhood so the red dot represents the future park and ride that's supposedly a coming and you can see the proximity to 71 slash 37 K so that kind of changes the context there's really only one residence the very first thing when you approach Patterson mill is a church and then there's one house before you ever arrive at 7137 K or 7139
01:27:29
Housing doesn't really start until after that.
01:27:34
And this just shows you if you're not familiar with the park and ride it's going in the little V dot strip and it doesn't have a like tax map parcel thing.
01:27:44
So this shows you the building and aerial view and then the other side the aerial view of the V dot property.
01:27:55
and this gives you a better concept of what's at the building now.
01:27:59
So it really is just a barn that houses the equipment for
01:28:05
Arbor Life and secondly it's it's a barn it has electric but there is a well on site but the reason they're not doing the bathrooms is because it's it's not conducive to put a typical toilet in that facility it's almost cost prohibitive and I had discussed with Commissioner Murray last week about that being one of the obstacles and secondly in looking through all the stuff I reached out to VDH and the BRDH you reached out as well
01:28:31
so in one of the slides you can see the letter but I made copies because it printed out small so they were giving me options on septic
01:28:42
things that I could do being composting toilet or the pit toilet, etc.
01:28:47
But we do have an agricultural well.
01:28:49
Secondly, we only have six employees who actually arrive at the site.
01:28:52
So when you look at the OSHA code for quote unquote mobile workers, it's not required by OSHA to have a bathroom on site.
01:29:02
and their office where they check in is less than a quarter of a mile and then obviously because he owns 37 J if they really needed to that's less than a 10 minute walk it's not even 300 feet so that's an option.
01:29:13
And this is the letter from the Blue Ridge Department of Health and if you want your own copies i'm happy to pass those out which like your copy.
01:29:57
So if you have any questions now.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:30:00
Great.
01:30:00
Thank you.
01:30:01
Any questions for the applicant?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:30:05
Can we just get some, because of the microphone going in and out?
01:30:08
Yeah.
01:30:08
So am I to understand, are we to understand that the applicant for 37K is also the owner of 37J?
SPEAKER_10
01:30:18
Yes.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:30:18
Did I hear you say that?
01:30:19
Yes, that's correct.
01:30:20
So that's titled under the same individual.
SPEAKER_10
01:30:23
It's titled under his business name, but it's the same person.
01:30:26
Yes.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:30:26
Okay, fine.
01:30:28
And so if I look at the existing conditions on context map that was given to us in our report, so there are three structures on the 37J.
SPEAKER_10
01:30:44
37J?
01:30:44
Three structures there.
01:30:46
Three structures.
01:30:47
There's a house, a garage, and I believe it has a cottage.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:30:51
I just see three structures.
SPEAKER_10
01:30:53
Yes.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:30:53
Okay, there's two driveways.
01:30:55
One driveway goes all the way back to something that's called 37J1.
01:30:59
But on 37J, there's looks like a major house, a smaller structure, and then another house perhaps coming off of the lower.
SPEAKER_10
01:31:07
So there's one section.
01:31:08
If you look in that map, there's I think there's 7137J1.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:31:14
is a two-acre parcel that does not belong to the applicant, and it's- I understand that, but if we could contain ourselves at 37J, there are three structures on 37J.
SPEAKER_10
01:31:24
And they're all existing structures, so what's your question?
01:31:26
I don't get the question, I'm sorry.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:31:27
You mentioned that if somebody had to go to the bathroom, which one are they going to?
01:31:31
Are they going to the one that's all the way at the bottom, or are they going to the one that's closest?
SPEAKER_10
01:31:33
No, they would go to the closest, obviously.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:31:36
No, it's not obvious.
01:31:37
You said it was on 37J, and then I look at 37J, and there are three buildings.
SPEAKER_10
01:31:40
Three structures.
01:31:40
Well, they would go to the closest structure.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:31:43
Okay, and so, and that's also where you said that the
01:31:49
you're you're hoping not to have to put anything on that property line because the resident of 37 J has asked for not for there not to be any trees correct although now currently the resident is no longer living there because she's 85 she decided to move into a retirement center okay so now it's unoccupied we can go back to putting trees on that insisting that there are trees on that property line right
01:32:16
I don't know that is it required that would be the question that will be that will future right that'll be in the future but right now I'm just trying to figure out if I have to go to the bathroom and I come there where do I go okay because you're asking us you're asking the you're asking the commission to look at some bathroom options correct one of which is just to go a little bit down to the next piece of property and go
01:32:40
or go in the woods, I guess I could go in the woods.
SPEAKER_10
01:32:43
No, I'm asking you to use a facility that actually has a restroom in the house next door, which we own, which the business owns, so I don't see that as an issue.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:32:53
Okay, so I'm just trying to figure this out because... Okay.
SPEAKER_10
01:32:56
one of the staff has said that we should have a facility on the property and you're asking if you check the VDH they gave me options I think one of the options that came from Allen at the Virginia Department of Health was a pit which is like the composting toilet or what's at the public parks that was an option because if you look at the context of what the site was previously it was a dump and fill site before the current occupant bought it right
01:33:22
So it has some questionable areas of what would be best in creating a septic system.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:33:28
I'm not I'm not suggesting a septic system.
01:33:30
I'm just trying to I'm trying to sort of sort of bring together what staff is recommending what we had from our zoning administrator director saying that you could have a compostable toilet there.
01:33:39
Yes.
01:33:40
And also then trying to say do we need to have a compost compostable toilet there if everyone's allowed to go to the house next door, which might fulfill that function.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:33:52
I also might add and I don't know if I don't honestly know if it's our position to determine whether or not a toilet is necessary.
01:33:59
I think that's something that would be determined I would think by code in terms of the requirements for the for the
01:34:08
Guessing.
01:34:09
You mentioned OSHA requirements.
01:34:11
Yes.
SPEAKER_10
01:34:11
So I did look it up with them because when they're mobile workers, it's been very questionable.
01:34:16
So they said that when they have the option, they can drive or transportation is readily available and long as it's within less than 10 minutes, then it is not required for a mobile crew.
01:34:26
And because in Arboriculture, they're not doing anything on site except picking up the equipment, they're a mobile crew.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:34:32
And so there will be no one in the offices.
SPEAKER_10
01:34:35
There is no office.
01:34:36
It is merely a barn.
01:34:37
There'll be no office at that site for the foreseeable future.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:34:41
Let me push on another question.
01:34:42
If there's not going to be offices, why do we care about what the parking situation is?
01:34:45
Why do we have to have formal parking?
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:34:47
Well, they have to go and leave their car and pick up the equipment.
01:34:54
That's what I understood.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:34:56
I guess my point is, I'm just not sure, maybe it is, and maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but I'm not sure it's our responsibility to determine the need for a restroom or not.
01:35:06
What we're saying here is that one of the conditions would be to review and approve a permanent on-site sewage disposal system.
01:35:16
I think, is it
01:35:17
Is it possible to say as determined or as required?
Kevin McCollum
Senior Planner
01:35:21
I linked both comments from building inspections and Department of Health in the staff report.
01:35:27
Basically, building inspection comments were
01:35:31
this is going from a farm building use to a commercial use of bathrooms required they're open to whatever VDH can approve got it VDH I think has sent some options that staffs considered but I think staff is going one step further to say you know we think a permanent on-site
01:35:50
well and septic system is appropriate in our eyes.
01:35:54
Got it.
01:35:54
In my opinion, relying on off-site bathroom when you don't know, you know, if that property to be sold, you would no longer have an, you know, available bathroom.
01:36:04
So I think having a bathroom on this property would be appropriate.
01:36:09
Thank you.
01:36:09
That's helpful.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:36:10
Is that helpful for you?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:36:15
So I wonder, I mean, obviously,
01:36:19
You can go and then I'll go.
01:36:20
Okay, so obviously we can't change the scope of this application, but I am kind of curious as to if if this permit was to encompass was encompass J, then don't all these problems go away?
01:36:35
I mean, the buffer goes away, the bathroom situation goes away.
01:36:38
Have you considered just expanding the application to the other property?
SPEAKER_10
01:36:45
We did consider it after acquisition.
01:36:49
So, but I would leave that up for the owner to discuss.
01:36:52
He hasn't decided, but it's been considered to merge the two properties.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:36:57
You're in something really important.
01:36:58
I really need you to come as close to the mic as you feel comfortable.
SPEAKER_10
01:37:01
The mic's not working very well.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:37:03
You're in something important, I think, right now.
SPEAKER_10
01:37:07
So, yes, we did consider joining 7137J with 7137K, and that would solve a lot of issues.
01:37:16
But that would be for the owner of Arbor Life to make that decision.
01:37:19
And then I'm not sure if joining those were going to make me have to do another special use permit.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:37:27
You're not sure if what I'm sorry?
SPEAKER_10
01:37:28
If I would have to then resubmit for special use because now I've added on more space.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:37:32
Does that?
SPEAKER_10
01:37:33
Yes.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:37:34
You probably would.
01:37:35
So that would be an issue as well, if there'd be a change to the special use purpose.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:37:39
It's a reapplication.
01:37:43
Yeah.
01:37:43
Mr. Murray, you good?
01:37:47
Mr. Firehawk, any questions for the applicant?
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:37:49
It wasn't really a question.
01:37:50
It's just a just a comment.
01:37:52
I just
01:37:54
You know, where I'm sitting, I understand that, okay, I'll just make one quick comment.
01:37:58
We can't really consider the use of the bathroom on the adjacent property because we can't condition an approval of one site on a separate site.
01:38:06
It doesn't matter if they're different owners because the owner could sell one of them and then they would not be in a necessarily favorable to running back and forth.
01:38:14
So I'm not even considering that.
01:38:17
but I would say that I'm also sympathetic to the owner that doesn't seem like a place where people are spending time hanging out they're coming they're getting a piece of equipment and they're leaving so and it's a small business and this isn't you know it can be an expensive overhead item to try to add so where I'm sitting I don't think that we need condition number three
01:38:42
So I'm not in the same boat as this whole conversation has been how to accommodate the bathroom and I don't believe that we need one.
01:38:50
So that's where I'm at.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:38:59
So did you have a question for the applicant?
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:39:02
I do.
01:39:03
Great.
01:39:03
Can you talk a little bit about what's being stored?
01:39:07
Is it chemicals or just inert materials?
SPEAKER_10
01:39:10
no so the only storage is the actual equipment and then the mulch and then occasionally logs would be brought in and so he's a zero waste facility so nothing ends up in the landfill everything gets reused so we don't have any waste okay and then on the concept plan shows the ADA parking but it's like is that gravel it's like I saw something that exists in gravel or is that paved it's gravel
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:39:36
I don't think you can have a ADA parking space in gravel okay so just flagging that okay all right thank you um and then lastly um just confirming you're not washing equipment or no so there's no maintenance no washing it's merely it gets parked in to protect it from the weather you have the mulch and that's it okay thank you chair
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:40:01
Yes, sir.
01:40:02
So just so that I understand, are you moving the operations from German Gap Road over there?
SPEAKER_10
01:40:07
So the office sits on 1146, their office, but they're currently located on 250, and they've been there for over 27 years.
01:40:15
But with the influx of growth, et cetera, it's now become slightly hazardous for him to exit onto 250 during that rush hour commute.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:40:25
So it's not the German Gap.
01:40:27
It's the 250 lot.
01:40:28
It's the 250.
SPEAKER_10
01:40:29
It's off the 250.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:40:30
Okay.
01:40:30
Fine.
01:40:30
Thank you.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:40:32
Great.
01:40:33
Any other questions for the applicant before we go to public comment?
01:40:38
All right, seeing none, thank you.
01:40:39
Appreciate it.
01:40:42
We will now go to public comment, and I have a sign-up sheet that has three names on it.
01:40:46
Forgive me if I mispronounce your name.
01:40:49
We will start with Roger Willits.
01:40:55
And the next person will be, so you can be ready, I believe it's Miles Bernson.
01:40:59
Roger.
01:41:10
Sir, if you could state your name and you'll have three minutes.
01:41:13
And when the light turns yellow, please end with your pertinent points.
SPEAKER_19
01:41:16
That'd be fine.
01:41:17
Members of the commission, I'm Roger Willits.
01:41:20
I'm Mr. Babers, former father-in-law, but he and I remain close friends and business associates.
01:41:28
I think some of you have probably seen the existing lot on 250.
01:41:32
And a couple of things I think are important.
01:41:37
This is an equipment shed only.
01:41:40
He has eight employees, which is a high number, and they will go to the spot, pick up their equipment, and go to the job.
01:41:52
At times they have helpers that are on the truck, but basically they pick up the equipment there.
01:41:59
There's not going to be any chemicals there, and I hadn't thought about the ADA regulations, but I don't know that he...
01:42:09
as a general practice has anybody that would require you know a handicap accessible situation but anyway and this is really a I think the best way to say is basically a tree operation I mean that's kind of landscaping he doesn't do the same sort of thing that say Waynesboro Nursery does and so I guess to the the real point is
01:42:40
if we have to have a restroom facility we did contact the health department and they did say a pit privy would be a acceptable remedy if you didn't have a septic system so that's kind of where we are as a cost item it would
01:43:00
I can't say it's cost prohibitive, but to put in a septic tank, et cetera, et cetera, drain fuel, and so forth, because we're expecting the guys to get to work and get on the job.
01:43:14
And they know that.
01:43:15
And the office facility and that sort of thing is another location.
01:43:21
I think my time's up.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:43:23
Thank you.
01:43:23
You got it.
01:43:24
Thank you.
01:43:27
Next, we have Miles Bernson, I believe, and then we have Blair Turner.
SPEAKER_00
01:43:33
Yeah, Commissioners, Miles Bernson at 243 Patterson Mill Lane in 313 Patterson Mill Lane, which I own under the ACE program.
01:43:41
So I've lived at 243 about 10 years now.
01:43:45
You know, Roger's a great member of the community.
01:43:49
I support everything he's doing there.
01:43:51
And one thing that hasn't been brought up in this is
01:43:54
when I moved in in 2014 to the current property so just below those other buildings we talked about it kind of a historic house right there the lot was kind of a mess Rogers cleaned it up over time he recently put the building in and effectively put a nice fence did some landscaping so the facility looks amazingly different it's a much different
01:44:16
view shed when you drive down the street now.
01:44:19
Much cleaner, much well put together.
01:44:21
He's also kind of put the screws to VDOT because VDOT used to keep their facilities sloppy, and now they see him kind of looking sharp.
01:44:29
They look sharp.
01:44:30
I mean, really, I have no concerns.
01:44:34
I like the residential area between my property and his property.
01:44:37
We share a lot of border area.
01:44:41
You know, the bathroom situation, I work from home a lot.
01:44:43
I actually closed my office here in town during COVID and work remotely.
01:44:47
There's nobody at the site except in the mornings to drop something off.
01:44:50
So the bathroom thing's a non-issue.
01:44:53
You know, I work for a contractor and a developer, a solar energy company, an international company, and like our crews go in and out all the time.
01:45:02
Like that's all they're doing is going, swapping out, picking up cars.
01:45:06
picking up vehicles.
01:45:07
And he's a great neighbor.
01:45:08
He helps out his neighbors.
01:45:09
We had a tree fall in my daughter's playset.
01:45:11
He was the first person to show up and remove it.
01:45:14
So no questions asked.
01:45:15
So thanks again.
01:45:17
Please consider his application.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:45:18
Great.
01:45:18
Thanks very much.
01:45:20
And finally, at least on this list, we have Blair Turner.
SPEAKER_02
01:45:29
Okay.
01:45:29
It's late.
01:45:30
I get 15 minutes, right?
01:45:31
No.
01:45:34
All right, my name is Blair Turner.
01:45:35
I own the property that's directly across the street from Roger or, well, VDOT's directly across the street, but I'm sort of encapsulated around them and touch Patterson Mill Road on the left and the right.
01:45:46
And my property goes to Burchess Creek Road on the west side of the property.
01:45:52
And yes, as the previous speaker just said, the property looks the best now that it's ever looked in my memory anyway.
01:45:58
We're very happy about that.
01:46:00
but I think my understanding of what's going on here is Roger has a business which he's spent most of his life building it's one of the best businesses in the area as you you probably know very well respected person he's also somebody that has helped numerous charities again and again and again in the area and someone that if you have a problem trust me because I've been there
01:46:23
You can call him.
01:46:24
It'll come down and help you no matter what he's doing and what day of the week it is.
01:46:28
So I think there should be some consideration to people like that that have been here in the community their entire lifetime.
01:46:34
And I have too, and I've seen a lot of what I think this special use permit is all about, which is to try to help get some of the commercial
01:46:45
vehicles that are being parked, I guess in the county's words, illegally around the county, various contractors that are parked at their residences, workers come there in the morning, then they take the work vehicles and go to work.
01:46:58
So my understanding is this is one of the first attempts to try to get one of these special use permits in force, and we have a good willing candidate here that wants to do it.
01:47:10
and would seem to me that would set a very good example for the rest of maybe the work committee and help you all get these special permits in force that you obviously want to have.
01:47:22
Just to add a little bit of color to this street, VDOT maintenance facility is directly across from his property, which if any of you have been out there to see that, you know it's not pretty.
01:47:34
On the back side of his property is 64.
01:47:37
So there's really not much use for this little sliver of land.
01:47:41
I think he's found the best use for it.
01:47:45
And then finally, I mean, maybe most importantly, we're going to alleviate some truck traffic off of 250 around Western Albemarle and Brownsville Market, which any of you like me that live there go there in the mornings and afternoons.
01:47:57
It is really bad.
01:47:59
So an attempt to get some of that commercial vehicle traffic off of there and onto an area that's easy access down by 64 and less traffic, I think serves the community very well.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:48:11
so in my opinion this is certainly a win-win for everybody and I strongly urge you to um to accept this from it thank you great thank you Mr. Turner that 15 minutes flew by by the way um I will open it up now to any additional public comment that might be in the audience all right being none madam clerk are there any online
01:48:37
Okay, great.
01:48:38
With that, I will close the public hearing and bring it back to the commission.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
01:48:42
Mr. Chair, customarily, the applicant also has five minutes to address any public comments.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:48:46
Thank you for the reminder.
01:48:48
So let's back up and ask the applicant, would you like to address any of the comments that were shared?
01:48:54
Great.
01:48:54
Thank you.
01:48:55
Now we'll come back to the commission.
01:48:56
Thanks for keeping me honest.
01:49:01
Any thoughts on the next approach to this?
01:49:04
I'll throw one out to consider as we look at the conditions.
01:49:08
The one that everybody seems to be focused on is number three.
01:49:12
So I would, I'm still personally trying to get my head around the role of the Planning Commission as it relates to this comment.
01:49:19
I understand where the county's coming from and the Virginia Department of Health's comments that were included as well.
01:49:28
My question is, is it reasonable to somewhat soften that language so that it's still a consideration, but that it is not an absolute requirement as a condition of site plan approval, but that there is a review of of the situation that's there.
01:49:48
and I'll stop rambling and ask Commissioner Moore if you'd like to come.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:49:53
Commissioner Russell, thank you.
01:49:54
I had a similar thought.
01:49:55
You know, could we change that to something like, you know, the review of human waste disposal by VDH, whatever, something like that.
01:50:05
Then I was thinking about, I was like, you know, it's a business who has to comply with VDH regardless.
01:50:09
Why don't we just strike clause three?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:50:11
Well, they are going to have to comply with being a commercial building, having some sort of restroom facility.
01:50:23
I think you've heard staff speaking.
01:50:26
The one thing that they're worried about is Pump and Hall.
01:50:29
It sounds like there's a fairly wide range of what falls into what might be acceptable.
01:50:34
I think they're just really trying to stress that one point.
01:50:37
And of course, you should go all right to liberalize that further.
01:50:41
And I think the other point is, I think the building code is going to require them to also have potable water on the site as well.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:50:50
Yeah, thank you for the clarification.
01:50:52
I did look up also the there's a prohibition on permanent pump and haul situations for employment places.
01:51:00
So I understand that.
01:51:01
I was just thinking about it's almost as if including that clause in here is sort of redundant if it has to happen with VDH anyway.
01:51:09
That's all I was trying to get at.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:51:14
That's a question, right?
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:51:15
Yeah, there's a question mark at the end of that.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:51:21
The answer?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:51:24
Excuse me, I was getting distracted.
01:51:27
The question was, please.
01:51:29
Oh, I was just sort of a statement question.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:51:31
I want the answer, though.
01:51:32
Well, yeah, yeah.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:51:33
I mean, like, the business is going to have to comply with VDH anyway.
01:51:37
I was just wondering, it almost seems like Clause 3 is somewhat redundant.
01:51:41
I mean, we can, like, drive the nail into it by including it, but it seems like it's not really necessary if VDH is going to say yay or nay one way or another.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
01:51:50
That sounds like a logical, logical statement there.
01:51:56
I think that we struck condition three staff would be okay.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:52:02
Sometimes the simplest things are the most complex.
Bart Svoboda
Zoning Administrator
01:52:06
Yes, so there are requirements within the zoning ordinance and the other things.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
01:52:12
If please state who you are again, I'm sorry.
Bart Svoboda
Zoning Administrator
01:52:15
All right, sorry.
01:52:16
Bart Swoboda, zoning administrator.
01:52:20
if there's potable water that's required by code then a septic system or disposal of that potable water is going to be required so one of the things to remember is this is going from a farm structure to a commercial building an example would be that's why we're showing that that's why the handicapped space is on there right that's not optional that's part of the building code when that becomes a commercial structure so the other things that apply there would also require
01:52:49
I would have to defer to the building official on whether or not that the bathrooms would be required.
01:52:56
So regardless of what OSHA states, either the health department, the USBC and the zoning ordinance only allows two types of systems, which are conventional and alternative types of facilities for waste disposal and individual lots.
01:53:14
So the way they're defined talks about health department approval.
01:53:19
So the pit privy potentially could be an alternative system.
01:53:25
The system that's at ICNA, the composting facility that's there, it's not really a composting toilet as an individual system, but also point discharge systems are prohibited unless you're a sewage disposal provider like the service authority.
01:53:47
right so it's very restrictive on individual lots for health of groundwater and surface water to make sure that's covered so I believe the statement that Mr Barnes just made we would have to look at that a little bit more but I don't think that from a staff perspective that we would object to that but we would want to research that to make sure when we get to the board either we need that condition or not so point taken that the PC is making okay because just to be clear so yeah
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:54:16
We don't usually enumerate things that are already required in the building code in our conditions.
01:54:21
So why would this be any different?
01:54:22
This wouldn't, right?
Bart Svoboda
Zoning Administrator
01:54:25
Mr. McCollum can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe this came out of discussions with the applicant about a port-a-john, which is not a permitted type, and also a pump and haul, which is used for emergency purposes under VDH regulations.
01:54:40
If it's a permanent pump and haul,
01:54:42
and that is something that the Board of Supervisors is responsible for.
01:54:45
Permanent pumping halls are not issued to individuals.
01:54:49
They're issued to localities.
01:54:52
So I believe that was an attempt to clarify some of the confusion and requests that the applicant may have had regarding whether a system was required and who is the ultimate authority.
01:55:06
Basically, can the county override, say, a state regulation, vice versa?
01:55:11
if we condition a permit the answer to that is yes we can be more restrictive than what the than what the state requires do we want to be point taken so we would need to research that condition a little bit more okay does that help I think so so yeah basically what you're saying is staff is supportive of removing condition three and that it will be further researched between now and the board of supervisors meeting and clarify what is actually needed to be said
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:55:38
yes anything great thank you sir I think we have it must be heard Ms.
01:55:48
Philardo did you have a comment okay while they're conferring let's look at the other conditions any concerns or comments on the other conditions
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:56:06
Well, sir, I just wanted to comment a little bit about this issue a little bit, too.
01:56:10
I mean, you have a park and ride.
01:56:11
This can be nearby, right?
01:56:13
Is the park and ride going to have a bathroom?
01:56:15
I don't know.
01:56:17
I've never seen one.
01:56:18
Well, it seems to me that this is the agricultural, this is the equivalent of a park and ride, right?
01:56:24
I mean, this is, they're dropping off, they're stopping, they're picking up equipment, and they're leaving.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:56:31
Well, I guess because the park and ride is just a parking lot, whereas this is an actual commercial structure.
01:56:36
So it's the change from an agricultural building to a commercial building.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:56:41
So it's interesting when you look at the land use value, not that we can determine what's agricultural, obviously someone's already done that, but in the land use valuation regulations, it includes horticulture under agriculture.
01:56:54
Yeah.
01:56:55
And so this is a horticultural enterprise.
01:56:58
So I do question why we're treating this as not agricultural when it is, you know, I talked before about the importance of, you know, when we look at the rural area and the need to have some sort of zoning or at least comprehensive plan designation for agricultural support.
01:57:15
This is a great example of that.
01:57:16
This is an agricultural support industry, right?
01:57:21
So so I think
01:57:24
So I do question, you know, like, should we be treating this?
01:57:29
We're trying to take this and we're trying to put it into a bucket that's sort of like our commercial bucket or industrial bucket.
01:57:35
And it isn't really any of those.
01:57:37
And I think that that's part of the struggle here.
01:57:40
Yeah, I agree.
01:57:44
I'll just leave it with that.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
01:57:45
Well, I think staff struggled a little bit with that too, right?
01:57:48
And that's why the setbacks were sort of defined as commercial setbacks, but it's not really a commercial zone.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:57:54
I mean, I've said, I mean, that area, you know, like right around, you know, Crozet where you have, you know, we have the Yancy Mills, we have other things.
SPEAKER_09
01:58:02
Yeah.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:58:02
This really is a, I'd rather see agricultural support in that area.
01:58:08
Mm-hmm.
01:58:08
than to see, you know, as we have now, that's a historic use of that area's agricultural support, as opposed to having gas stations and restaurants and expanding commercial uses, which is kind of a problem in that space.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:58:25
Yeah, it's a special use permit for a landscape contractor, not just saying a commercial building.
01:58:31
So it's very specific to that particular use.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:58:35
yeah yeah I mean I would like to see more I mean we were really bleeding you know one of the things you're working with the native.
01:58:43
things some of the things with native plants trying to encourage more use of native plants, one of the things we've found is that nurseries are disappearing and the county horticulture is disappearing as a as an occupation in this area because.
01:58:55
the margins are so small right and the land is expensive to just have a bunch of plants and pots out or plants in a field maturing I think putting more regulations on things like this makes it more difficult for these kind of operations to survive in the county I mean this is this is this is a continuation of the conversation we had two weeks ago about Broadway
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:59:18
and at what point do we want to do we want to encourage sort of light industrial or non sort of service oriented in the financial services kind of thing to leave the county and you know I think that's part of what's being wrestled with yeah this is this is sort of a legacy building a legacy business and you know everyone can speak
01:59:41
can speak glowingly about the owner of the legacy bills.
01:59:44
But speaking glowingly about Roger Baber is not the issue here.
01:59:48
The issue is if this were by somebody who was despicable, would we still want to have this kind of business in this location?
01:59:56
And I think the answer to that, at least to me, is that.
01:59:59
particularly if we're if I'm moving on a little bit if we're also talking about making sure that the setbacks given that there's residential to the further down Patterson Mill Road that there in fact is a is is in fact a delineation between this commercial activity and where that sort of the borderline begins or where where the where the use changes to a residential and then to a more intense residential use after that
02:00:24
I'm buying you time here.
02:00:25
I'm buying you time.
02:00:27
Mr. Consultation is done.
02:00:28
I need you to come up here instead of I think we have potentially some.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
02:00:32
Mr. Collins, could you put the proposed conditions back up on the screen, please?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:00:36
Yeah, sure.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:00:46
Oh, okay.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:00:47
Oh, yes, that's what we wanted to look like.
02:00:48
There's a Western look.
02:00:50
That's your Western view.
02:00:53
The view shed from- Far away.
SPEAKER_09
02:00:55
Oh, far away, so good.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
02:00:59
So as Commissioner Firehock indicated, it's not staff's practice to put conditions or to restate conditions in special use permits that are already required by other agencies.
02:01:09
And in this case, any sort of restroom facilities would be subject to VDH approval.
02:01:14
Staff does continue to recommend that portable toilets and pump and haul not be on the property.
02:01:19
So that is so prohibition on portable toilets and pump and haul would be above and beyond what VDH would require.
02:01:25
So it's staff's continuing recommendation that at least the second sentence of condition three remain.
02:01:31
Of course, the final recommendation would be up to the commission.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:01:35
Okay, I guess my only comment on that third one is just to make that a complete sentence.
02:01:39
Do we have to add after Department of Health is completed?
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:01:43
Well, I think we're saying we're going to strike the whole first sentence.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
02:01:49
Correct.
02:01:49
Staff would have no objection if the entire first sentence was just stricken, and the second sentence that— I see.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:01:54
I'm sorry.
02:01:54
I'm very tired.
02:01:55
Just ignore me.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:01:57
Counsel, if I'm hearing you correctly, so number three would be the use of portable toilets and pump and haul would be prohibited on this site or something like that.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
02:02:07
I think that the language is there sufficient, but of course, if the commission wants to suggest—
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:02:16
All right, great.
02:02:16
We have a consensus.
02:02:19
And if so, does it?
02:02:21
Yes, sir.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:02:22
You're striking the first part of three.
02:02:24
I was just wondering about condition number two, about the 50-foot setback.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:02:28
Why don't we fix it then?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:02:32
Oh, just, I mean, I think, you know, I think requiring, you know, having a landscape buffer of some kind, that's fine.
02:02:41
But maybe, you know, typically what we're requiring is large trees that block, you know, that could potentially block the view of other things that sort of screening.
02:02:52
I would just leave out there as a recommendation that landscaping, yes, screening, maybe not.
02:03:01
Maybe there's some kind of buffer there, but it may not necessarily, flexibility, that it may not have to be, you know,
02:03:09
big row of Leyland Cypress or something like that.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:03:12
I don't know.
02:03:12
I mean, the thing is that this use does have theoretically bucket trucks and other large equipment so that I don't think we I don't feel like monkeying with the language of the screening at this time.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:03:24
And we're not being prescriptive there.
02:03:25
We're just saying now have some buffer, right?
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:03:28
They can work it out with the applicant.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:03:31
But I mean, once again, it's referencing it's referencing a county code already that's in the
02:03:37
I mean is it doesn't need to be a condition if it's already part of our code.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:03:44
I think it's helped I I would say it's probably helpful to have it as a condition as a reminder for.
02:03:49
Okay.
02:03:51
Any anybody care to make a motion?
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:03:54
I do.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:03:54
All right.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:03:55
All right, I find my motion in my report, you can put up there and help me.
02:04:01
Yep.
02:04:03
Especially since I forgot my reading glasses.
02:04:07
I move to recommend approval of SP2023406 Arbor Life Professional Tree Care with the conditions as recommended in the staff report as amended this evening and specifically would that involve the striking of the first sense of proposed condition three yes yes counselor exactly great we have a motion anybody second second awesome any discussion
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:04:35
All right, Madam Clerk, to call the roll, please.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
02:04:38
Ms.
02:04:38
Firehock?
02:04:40
Aye.
02:04:40
Mr. Carrazana?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:04:42
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
02:04:43
Mr. Missel?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:04:44
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
02:04:44
Mr. Murray?
02:04:45
Aye.
02:04:46
Mr. Bivins?
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:04:47
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
02:04:48
Mr. Moore?
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:04:49
Aye.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
02:04:49
Thank you.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:04:51
Great.
02:04:52
All right.
02:04:53
Can I cast my vote before the roll is closed?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:04:56
You missed that.
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
02:04:59
My best friend, I'm sorry, Mr. Clayborne, I'm so sorry.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:05:03
Aye, it's going to go on the record.
02:05:05
Thank you, sir, I apologize.
02:05:06
What happens to old chairs?
SPEAKER_09
02:05:07
All right, everybody, stay focused.
02:05:09
All right, we are finished with... We've concluded the public hearings, and we will move on to committee reports.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:05:27
Do any commissioners have committee reports?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
02:05:32
I do.
02:05:34
The MPO Tech met today.
02:05:37
We actually had a snow day last week, so they changed it.
02:05:44
So a couple of, I thought, interesting conversations.
02:05:48
One is they presented their needs assessment tool, which evaluates proposed projects that then go into the cap plan.
02:05:58
They also had this heat
02:06:00
they called the heat map which was about comments community comments the interesting thing is that the heat map didn't necessarily connect with the projects that were being proposed so for instance Crozet had a strong heat map but no projects like a lot of desire but a lot of desire but they didn't but with other measures they didn't rank high so so there was a lot of conversations about that and particularly about how do we assess
02:06:30
future development.
02:06:31
We have development zones.
02:06:32
We have projects that we're approving in certain areas.
02:06:35
So it's not just looking at the needs today of what we're forecasting.
02:06:41
And so the comment that was made was that that forecasting tool is part of what's being implemented.
02:06:48
This is a work in progress, what we saw today.
02:06:50
I thought it was promising.
02:06:51
I thought it could be something that we could certainly use to further develop high priority projects for the county.
02:06:59
so that was interesting then we looked at some of the VDOT smart scale projects two of note were which garnered a lot of conversation were the the Fontaine Avenue 250 or Fontaine Avenue 29 interchange which has gone through a lot of iterations
02:07:23
there's a couple of options now being presented but in it in all cases it eliminates the left turn from 29 the one that goes on to 64 64 westbound heading heading heading heading west heading westbound
02:07:42
you're heading north on the bypass on 29 250 bypass and there is that left turn which is very problematic that goes to 64 so all the options would eliminate that and then create a different way for cars to or trucks
02:08:06
to get back on that southbound 250 that then they can just make a right instead of a left.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:08:13
It's like basically making a big U-turn up on Fontaine.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
02:08:16
Mr. Carrazana, I didn't have the pleasure of going to the meeting today, so I didn't see what you saw there, but I think that a lot of those ones actually are eliminating that.
02:08:27
Yes, but I said all options eliminate that turn.
02:08:30
No, no, no.
02:08:31
Let me rephrase that.
02:08:33
I know it was getting rid of that left turns northbound 29 to westbound 64 we're talking about.
02:08:40
I think what was in the application that was funded does provide that U-turn.
02:08:46
Basically, the traffic would have to go up to the Fontaine intersection.
02:08:49
So U-turn up underneath the bridge and head southbound.
02:08:51
Correct.
02:08:52
But the ones that VDOT is proposing as alternatives right now are actually eliminating that option.
02:08:59
and we continue to keep that northbound.
02:09:04
That's not what was presented today by VDOT.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
02:09:08
Yeah, your replacement.
02:09:13
Yeah, so what was presented, I think you were at the, were you online, Mr. McDermott?
Kevin McDermott
02:09:22
Yes, I was online for the meeting.
02:09:24
Kevin McDermott, Deputy Director of Planning.
02:09:27
So Mr. Barnes is correct about the original proposal included removing that left turn and sending all the traffic up to Fontaine for the U-turn.
02:09:41
most of the items that were presented today they are no longer addressing that left hand turn from northbound 29 they did say there is they proposed one new alternative that said that they could send those vehicles up to Fontaine but in all the options that were presented
02:10:03
in the initial or in the VDOT study that was presented by Sandy at the beginning, those no longer addressed the left turn from northbound 29 to westbound 64.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
02:10:16
I will send you some materials, but the follow-up to the going to Fontaine, which
02:10:22
was problematic for many reasons.
02:10:25
And doing that U-turn on Fontaine versus doing the U-turn under the bypass, if you will.
02:10:32
So there were several options that presented left turns.
02:10:36
One was a dedicated lane under the bypass.
02:10:40
Another one was a signalized left turn.
02:10:44
And so those were clearly presented as an A, B, and a C.
02:10:48
option as alternatives to the Fontaine.
02:10:51
So it's in the document.
02:10:52
I'll forward it to everyone so you can see that.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
02:10:55
We can have some clarification afterwards to make sure everybody's on the same page.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
02:11:00
Yeah.
02:11:00
But anyway, obviously, it's eliciting conversations here.
02:11:04
but but that was certainly a point of conversation today and I will follow up I will follow up with send everyone the the materials love to see it that's my commute and that is a really dangerous it it is intersection I cannot believe that still well that's why the plan is to to take it away yeah yeah thanks Commissioner Carrazana great any other committee reports
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:11:29
Yes, so the CCA, so the CAC, Matt, and then the originally scheduled presentation on the Barnes Lumber project was postponed.
02:11:46
So instead, what we did was there was a discussion about ideas of future topics that occurred.
02:11:54
and then also a discussion about how we can get more people engaged in both the budget discussions and also the comprehensive plan discussions that are going on.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:12:07
Great.
02:12:08
Thank you.
02:12:09
I saw another hand.
02:12:10
Yes, sir.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:12:11
So it's going to be similar to Commissioner Carrazana's report because I went to the first Citizens Transportation Advisory Committee meeting of the year.
02:12:20
There were two main items.
02:12:21
They somewhat reflect what the other commissioner already talked about.
02:12:24
I think similar topics from the night before.
02:12:27
One was quite clever how they're sort of looking to prioritize or identify places that need attention.
02:12:33
And so first they listed the priorities and the ones that had sort of the highest weighting were
02:12:39
walking accessibility, roadway safety, and bike and pedestrian safety, and then another five or six other categories as well.
02:12:45
And then kind of ran all the current known project needs through that sort of rubric and came up with Route 29 from Greenberg to 250 sucks, which we already knew.
02:12:56
So this is not solutions yet, but it is sort of looking at the needs.
02:12:59
And then there's another tier below that and another tier below that.
02:13:02
So that's kind of cool.
02:13:04
And then also talking about the smart scale projects around six applications are sort of in the works now.
02:13:11
The two that they're planning to submit, one is the interchange at I-64 and Fifth Street Extended, kind of near Wegmans, a little south of there.
02:13:20
They're looking to do that diverging diamond because there's quite a lot of traffic and the crossing left to turn onto the highway is difficult.
02:13:27
Another is a variety of sort of improvements to the Peter Jefferson Parkway, Rolkin Road area on 250 Pantops, including a bunch of sidewalks, which cost a hell of a lot of money, it turns out.
02:13:40
and a park and ride.
02:13:42
Yeah, out there.
02:13:44
So on the north side near where the senior living community is.
02:13:47
So those are the two they're looking at.
02:13:48
And they're hoping to get, if they can get some projects identified in time, something in the barracks corridor at 250.
02:13:55
and then also something at Ivy and Old Ivy at 250 that whole corridor near where I work because it is a mess that intersection of 29 250 and Ivy Road just it's the stuff there's one that they wanted to get going but it turns out it needs an additional layer of review before they can submit it to smart scale this year is to connect Hillsdale so right now we have that new Hillsdale that runs kind of parallel to 29 but terminates at Whole Foods
02:14:25
to actually continue that all the way to 250 and have it intersect there and then, you know, be able to close down or move some other things to basically right now you've got that terrible bottleneck right there at hydraulic where Whole Foods is.
02:14:41
And so they're trying to alleviate that by connecting it directly that way.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:14:44
Commissioner, are they aware that there's going to be a roundabout there?
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:14:48
Yeah, I was going to say that.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:14:49
Yeah, the roundabout is already, yeah, that was part of the talk.
02:14:52
The roundabout is funded.
02:14:53
It is going to happen.
02:14:54
It's going to start.
02:14:54
They actually are advertising.
02:14:56
I'll let Mr. McDermott talk about, but the conversation to extend Hillsdale to 250, I sat in on a bunch of conversations about that, lo, these many years ago.
02:15:08
and part of the problem with that is that they just they could not acquire the price to acquire all the right-of-ways was extraordinary because you're going to come through if any if everybody knows where the Albertine barn is they're basically obliterating a section of land there to come to 250 and um now maybe things change
02:15:30
and the meetings that I sat in at that time, this is probably four or five years ago, it never reached that level.
02:15:36
It never reached the level that it got scored high enough
02:15:44
to warrant the amount of money that it would cost to do.
02:15:48
And there wasn't that much of a savings.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:15:50
So that's interesting that that still... From what the staff rep from the MPO said, it would rate pretty high on the smart scale criteria.
02:16:02
and the only sort of existing building and business that have to be demolished is that Chinese restaurant on the very end.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:16:09
Are they going to go through the Kroger's parking lot?
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:16:12
There's other land acquisition for sure, but that was the only demolition.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:16:16
They would also be impacting the Meadow Creek, right?
02:16:19
So they'd be creating a new, taking out a big wooded swath over
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:16:25
Anyway, it's not going to be part of round six anyway, so perhaps round seven in the next year or two.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:16:32
So I'm fascinated.
02:16:34
You talked about the discussions about pedestrian and alternative transportation.
02:16:42
In these discussions, does anyone ever actually look at the heat maps and data of where pedestrians are actually?
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
02:16:49
I really need you to talk into the microphone.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:16:52
Sorry.
02:16:53
I mean, are people, you know, actually looking at some of this data about where pedestrians are?
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:16:59
If you turn the face that way, your voice isn't going into the mic.
02:17:03
Oh, sorry.
02:17:03
You'll never look at them again.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:17:05
Don't look at us.
02:17:06
I'll listen closely, even if you don't look.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:17:08
Okay, so I was just saying that we have a lot more data on where pedestrians and cyclists actually are going.
02:17:17
And I wonder if in these meetings you're hearing people using that data more often.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:17:22
This is my first of these meetings, I will say, but I'm not entirely sure how walkability safety was assessed, whether that was based on, I mean, it was pretty data-driven, but I don't know exactly which data they're using.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
02:17:42
yeah they are they are used the tool that they're developing is incorporating a number of different factors certainly walkability bike pads is is part of that evaluation the safety of the streets so there's a they have a whole criteria that develops rankings for different projects.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:18:04
To be more specific, are they using the data from existing traffic of walking, cycling, and running?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
02:18:16
Well, they're getting data for existing vehicular traffic.
02:18:21
I can't tell you how much they're in terms of bike pads, how much they're monitoring that.
02:18:27
That was not part of the conversation.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:18:30
It seems like that that would be a useful thing.
02:18:32
If we're going to be planning for pedestrians and alternative transportation, we should know what's being used currently.
02:18:39
I know on my way here today, I was afraid to be late because I was driving down our national bike route and there's a cyclist ahead of me.
02:18:48
says having to drive the speed of a cyclist to get here.
02:18:51
So, I mean, it'd be nice to, if we started using that data about, you know, where, you know, where people actually, these roads that people actually are using.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Vice Chair, Planning Commission
02:19:00
And Mr. McGurin might be able to add some to, my understanding is that they're looking at where they can connect existing.
02:19:08
So if we have bike pads or certainly even sidewalks, where we can, we can connect areas that aren't served right now and extend
Kevin McDermott
02:19:18
but yeah I think Commissioner Carrazano's right on with that what we typically are using is we're looking at it land use data to determine where people would need to have pedestrian and bike connections we have not
02:19:41
I guess we do not have good data on existing pedestrian usage in areas we do have some places where we put out counters for.
02:19:52
We've worked with Department of Transportation to lay out pedestrian counters and bike counters and a few key locations to try and identify.
02:20:01
if there's increasing pedestrian activity in an area over a period of years.
02:20:07
But we rely a lot on public feedback as to where people wanna go, and then looking at land use data and origin and destination studies to find out, well, where do people need to move to and from?
02:20:24
But the existing data for where people are definitely going is thin.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:20:31
Mr McDermott, I know that we use accident data for certain intersections, do you have a sense of whether or not pedestrian accident or bicycle accident data is also captured in any of that?
Kevin McDermott
02:20:45
Yes, it is, although once again that data is not always complete, a lot of pedestrian accidents unless there's some injury
02:20:54
is not reported and so that is often not collected but where we do have that data that's identified anywhere where we see a pedestrian accident we assume that is a place that we need to address pedestrian accessibility great thank you any other committee reports i'll share one of the fifth and avon street community advisory committee fifth and avon community advisory committee met
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:21:24
last Thursday, I think it was now.
02:21:26
And among other things, two things, two items of interest, two projects of interest.
02:21:31
One was the expansion of the Kappa Sigma International Headquarters on Route 20.
02:21:37
And it was interesting, there was a lot of, a lot, that's a relative term, I'd say there were probably 10 neighbors that came to the meeting to express their concern about the viewshed.
02:21:49
they're relocating what was previously approved by a special use permit of as a location for the expansion they're relocating it basically about 90 degrees and they're pushing it to the back property line that when it was originally zoned did not have residential in it now it's dense residential townhouses on the back side so those that have been looking out over the top of the existing capacity house will be looking at the back wall of an expansion of the capacity house
02:22:18
so that was the area of concern there and I think we all provided some constructive feedback to the applicant the second thing was 1928 Scottsville Road it was it's a small lot it's a 1.33 acres and the request was to expand it from an R1 residential zoning district to an R10 residential zoning district and they were going to
02:22:45
by proffer they were going to limit it to eight dwelling units and you I don't want to bias anyone but when you see it suffice it to say the site was quite full so there was discussion about interconnecting streets and having to accommodate those as well as the lots on the property it was a pretty tight site and that's coming that's coming that's in the process coming yeah um as you're
02:23:17
you think I would be able to do that let me get back to you on that I could tell you it's I mean the the address is 1928 Scottsville Road it's I'd rather not guess okay all right good question all right and no other commission or committee reports we will move on to review the Board of Supervisors meeting Mr. Barnes do you have updates for us um yes I do um
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
02:23:45
the board met last week.
02:23:48
They considered two rezonings and approved both of them that came for you all before.
02:23:54
One was the Arbor Oaks townhouses that were on Hydraulic Road and those passed.
02:24:01
And the second one was for the High School Center 2 at Albemarle High School, reduction of some setbacks.
02:24:09
It's a problem.
02:24:10
And that was approved as well.
02:24:13
but during the day they had a healthy discussion for several hours staff presented to them the the
02:24:23
AC-44 discussion of goals and objectives for the environmental parks and rec, housing, historic resources, and economic development.
02:24:34
Again, you, of course, had your own discussion.
02:24:37
A lot of the way that the staff had sort of set that up was to
02:24:43
start the slide there were slides that sort of talked about the the goals and objectives but with staff set it up it's like this is what the planning commission sort of added to the the debate and you know your all's recommendations and to allow them to reflect upon those and then add additional comments they might have had on that section so your comments are carried forth there I think was very good healthy discussion
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:25:12
we can give you more details if need be but that's pretty much happened at the last meeting great thank you and just one thing to add at the fifth and Avon community advisory committee chair Andrews of the supervisor Andrews mentioned exactly what you said and basically wanted to thank the planning commission for their thoughtful comments and that they actually did really focus on those and consider those in their deliberations
02:25:39
and I will then pass it on back to you for AC44 update.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
02:25:43
That's right.
02:25:44
Thank you.
02:25:45
So the Pantop CAC had a presentation on AC44 last night, discussion.
02:25:54
There are some rural meetings coming up.
02:25:58
ESMOT, there'll be one there, February 12th.
02:26:02
And I guess Batesville is tomorrow night.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:26:05
Oh, is that tomorrow night?
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
02:26:08
And then obviously, I think we talked about this in our last meeting, we're working to bring you all some more information on the land use and transportation, the sort of the details, you know, we sort of talked about the higher kind of goals, and we're going to be coming back with some more information to you all.
02:26:29
I believe that's your next meeting, help me out, is that what that's coming back for?
02:26:35
I'm sorry, it's the second meeting in February.
02:26:37
Okay.
02:26:37
Got it.
02:26:40
And I think those are our big things we're working on since the last time we talked about AC44.
02:26:43
Great.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:26:44
Great updates.
02:26:46
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
02:26:48
For the transportation discussion that will be upcoming, do you think before then it would be possible to kind of get just an update on the micro transit and how that's performing?
02:26:56
Is it going well?
02:26:57
Has it been worth the investment?
02:26:59
That might be just an important tidbit as we're trying to
02:27:03
plan for the comp plan piece.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
02:27:06
Thank you.
02:27:06
We can get something for you.
02:27:07
Sure.
02:27:08
I mean, if we made that presentation at the same time, would that be suitable?
02:27:13
That would be easy.
02:27:14
Yeah, great.
02:27:15
Fantastic.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:27:17
Awesome.
02:27:18
Thank you.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:27:19
I have a very challenging question.
02:27:22
So the recycling center that was opened at Keene, I enjoy it very much.
02:27:28
But
02:27:29
I don't I don't see any signs on the road saying recycling center this way or it's just like you're just driving down Route 20.
02:27:39
and you have to already know it's there.
02:27:41
And I know it's supposed to also capture people going to the post office, but it's not really, you're not standing at the post office mailing a letter going, oh, look, there's a recycling center.
02:27:49
I just, you know, and I've talked to a lot of people like, wait, what?
02:27:53
There's a recycling center?
02:27:54
So I really, I know I went to the kickoff and the whole event and media, whatever, but I just don't feel like the word has gotten out enough.
02:28:04
And at the very minimum, there's, can we put signage up?
02:28:08
on the road saying recycling center.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
02:28:10
I can certainly pass all my suggestion to Fez.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:28:15
Yeah, it was a big deal for the rural area to get recycling in the southern area and so I'd really want us to use it.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
02:28:25
And the signage would help?
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:28:27
It would a lot because we still have the problems of rural dumping of things that actually are recyclable.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:28:32
You know, Chair, this goes to this comment that I've made a number of times that I think that our local media is not doing a good job covering the things that happen in the city, in the city, excuse me, in the county.
02:28:44
They do a really good job of stuff that happens in the city.
02:28:47
And so however we can negotiate that, you know, the daily progress has at least four times a week a sports
02:28:56
that leads with a sports story.
02:28:59
And I have to say that while I'm fine that, you know, the local sports and the big local sports down the road there somehow makes it to the front page, I would think some of the issues that in fact are pertinent to our community would be better on the front page and whether or not we're not hitting our three-point shots like we're supposed to be hitting our three-point shots.
02:29:19
who the, you know, who cares?
02:29:22
I don't, and he's even from a place that I even know from, I know about, but the whole idea that what are the big ideas, or even just community issues that we should be working with our local, our local
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:29:36
media outlets to make sure that people know the good news about Albemarle County and not even these these upcoming meetings tomorrow in Batesville and in Esmond I haven't seen I know about our AC44 website and all that good stuff but a lot of people don't go to that website just
02:29:52
regular citizens don't kind of hang out on the county's website.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:29:55
How do we engage with local media to tell our story, our part of the county's part of the story?
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:29:58
Well, I think also I know staff has had a challenging time engaging the public in
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:30:17
these meetings and when you see the survey results and 300 people respond that's a wow out of how many people in the county right but that kind of press at the right time might really make a whole lot of sense and difference great any new business or old business
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
02:30:35
I actually have one thing, if you don't mind.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:30:37
Yes, sir.
Michael Barnes
Director of Planning
02:30:38
So I've had a busy first couple weeks here.
02:30:42
You've got a decent sized staff.
02:30:45
I've made a point to sit down, spend some time talking with them.
02:30:48
It's been, you know, just like to say, really talented.
02:30:51
Bunch of folks.
02:30:52
I think you probably see them coming before you.
02:30:54
I've been very impressed by the talent that we have and the enthusiasm we have with the staff.
02:31:00
I'd also like to sit down and talk with you all.
02:31:02
Hopefully you'll have the same enthusiasm and youthful vigor.
02:31:05
But I would like to reach out to you guys, have Vivian, who's our secretary, try to reach out and make appointments.
02:31:14
If you know
02:31:16
maybe after this meeting we can just you're not going to be here for the next couple weeks let me know otherwise we'd like to try to reach out and go have coffee or you come by my office or I come by your office whatever whatever works for you I'd like to try to make that that personal outreach thank you appreciate that Commissioner Claiborne may request lunch out of the deal so oh it's coming oh it's coming
Carolyn Shaffer
Clerk, Planning Commission/Boards
02:31:42
Any other new or old business?
02:31:46
I have one more thing for new business.
02:31:48
I know it's a little early for vacation time, but if you're going to be gone, you need to let me know as well as Michael so that I'd keep track of it.
02:31:58
And I'm not waiting to see if you're going to come or not.
02:32:01
So just if you know when you're going away, if you can let me know.
02:32:04
I appreciate it.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:32:06
Thank you.
02:32:06
I have one more coming.
02:32:08
I know we're trying to get out of here.
02:32:09
No rush.
02:32:10
I think we strike letter A.
02:32:12
from the docket.
02:32:13
I think we already did that.
02:32:14
That was the meeting from December.
02:32:17
Just seeking confirmation for that 9A.
02:32:24
Oh, the agenda.
02:32:26
Planning Commission for the Supervisors Joint Work Session, Affordable Housing and Development.
02:32:31
So we strike that, right?
02:32:33
And then just as we're thinking about planning for the future through the comp plan, does it make sense to maybe try to set up
02:32:41
something around schools and long range planning.
02:32:45
I feel like I just don't have a great grasp on that.
02:32:47
So is that a briefing that we might desire as a commission?
02:32:50
Just something to think about as you all are talking.
02:32:55
Chair and Mr. Vice Chair.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:32:56
We have had it in the past.
02:32:58
Yeah.
Corey Clayborne
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:33:00
So it might be an appropriate time at some point in 2024.
02:33:03
So I'll just toss that out there.
02:33:05
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:33:06
Yes, sir.
02:33:07
Thank you.
02:33:08
Thank you for the suggestion.
02:33:09
Any items for follow up?
02:33:10
That was one.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:33:12
Actually, I actually did have a new item that I wanted to bring up.
02:33:16
It was brought up to the Southern Water Conservation District today that there was a recommendation to get a letter of support for the Hardware River as the Scenic River.
02:33:26
And so I suggested to them that they should also probably come forward to Albemarle County and ask the same thing because the Hardware River also comes through Albemarle County is also an important river with scenic qualities and also there's a lot of biodiversity sites along that river.
02:33:43
So just bring that up to you all and see.
02:33:48
I mean, at some point it may be even appropriate for this commission to make a recommendation along those lines.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
02:33:55
a letter of support and you could you could bring up that type of item as to the commission for resolution as an individual commissioner we can look at maybe adding that for next next agenda yeah we talked about it yeah great uh well with that
Fred Missel
Commissioner, Planning Commission / Chair, Planning Commission
02:34:18
I think we are adjourned until Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 6pm.
02:34:22
Thanks, everybody.