Central Virginia
Albemarle County
Planning Commission Regular Meeting 9/12/2023
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Planning Commission Regular Meeting
9/12/2023
Attachments
Agenda.pdf
Minutes.pdf
Action Memo.pdf
ZTA2023-03 Bonus Factors Staff Report.pdf
Attach 1 - ZTA2023-03 Residential Density Bonus Resolution of Intent.pdf
Attach 2 - ZTA2023-03 Residential Density Bonus Proposed Ordinance.pdf
SP2023-04 and SP2023-05 Reventon Staff Report.pdf
Attach 1 - SP2023-04 and SP2023-05 Map.pdf
Attach 2 - SP2023-04 Application Submittal for SP2023-04 Briery Creek Farm (Reventon Farm) Water related Uses.pdf
Attach 3 - SP2023-05 Applicant’s Submittal for SP202300005 Briery Creek Farm (Reventon Farm) Boarding Camp.pdf
Attach 4 - SP2023-04 and SP2023-05 Draft Groundwater Management Plan_FINAL.pdf
Attach 5 - SP2023-04 and SP2023-05 Purpose and Intent of the Zoning Ordinance and Rural Areas.pdf
Attach 6 - SP2023-04 Recommended conditions for SP202300004 Briery Creek Farm (Reventon Farm) Water Related Uses.pdf
Attach 7 - SP2023-05 Recommended Conditions for SP202300005 Briery Creek Farm (Reventon Farm) Boarding Camp.pdf
1. Call to order and establish quorum.
▶︎
0:19
2. Appointment of a Temporary Chair.
▶︎
0:58
3. Other Matters Not Listed on the Agenda from the Public.
▶︎
2:48
4. Consent Agenda (on next sheet).
▶︎
3:18
5. Public Hearing.
▶︎
4:09
a. ZTA202300003 Residential Density Bonus Factors
▶︎
4:09
ZTA202300003 Residential Density Bonus Factors.pdf
b. SP202300004 Briery Creek Farm (Reventon Farm) – Water Related Uses SP202300005 Reventon Farm - Boarding Camp
▶︎
21:51
SP202300004 Briery Creek Farm (Reventon Farm) – Water Related Uses.pdf
6. Review of Board of Supervisors Meeting: September 6, 2023
▶︎
1:22:02
7. Committee Reports.
▶︎
1:25:32
8. AC44 Update.
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1:27:33
9. Old Business/New Business
10. Items for follow-up. PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING AGENDA September 12, 2023
Kevin McDermott
00:00:01
My name is Kevin McDermott.
00:00:05
I'm the acting planning director here.
00:00:07
Our chair and vice chair are absent from the meeting.
00:00:12
So I'm going to be holding a call in for nominations for an acting chair for the evening here in a second.
00:00:19
But I'll go ahead and start off with a call to order.
00:00:24
And if you could establish a quorum for us.
SPEAKER_07
00:00:28
Yes.
00:00:31
Mr. Moore?
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:00:33
Here.
SPEAKER_07
00:00:35
Ms.
00:00:36
Firehock?
00:00:37
Here.
SPEAKER_07
00:00:38
Mr. Carrazana?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:00:39
Here.
SPEAKER_07
00:00:42
Mr. Bivins?
00:00:48
Mr. Bivins?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:00:49
Here.
00:00:49
Here.
SPEAKER_07
00:00:51
And Mr. Murray?
Kevin McDermott
00:00:55
Here.
SPEAKER_07
00:00:56
Thank you.
Kevin McDermott
00:00:58
OK, we have a quorum and now I will accept nominations for an acting chair.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:01:05
And nominate Julian Bivins.
Kevin McDermott
00:01:11
Second.
00:01:13
OK, sounds like we have a nomination of Commissioner Bivins to be acting chair.
00:01:20
Can I have a motion to appoint Chair Bivins or Commissioner Bivins is the chair?
00:01:31
Who moved?
00:01:32
Second.
00:01:35
OK.
00:01:35
Carolyn, can you call the vote?
SPEAKER_07
00:01:38
Yes.
00:01:40
Mr. Murray?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:01:41
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
00:01:44
Mr. Carrazana?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:01:45
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
00:01:48
Ms.
00:01:48
Firehock?
00:01:50
Yes.
00:01:52
Mr. Moore?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:01:52
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
00:01:55
Mr. Bivins?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:01:56
Abstain.
SPEAKER_07
00:01:57
Thank you.
Kevin McDermott
00:02:01
Motion passes.
00:02:03
Welcome, Chair Bivens.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:02:05
Thank you, Director.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:02:34
Good evening, everyone.
00:02:35
Thank you for being here for the planning commission, Albemarle County Planning Commission meeting, September 12th, a year right here in Lane High School.
00:02:45
So welcome, everyone.
00:02:48
Are there other matters not listed on the agenda from the public?
00:02:52
And if so, would you please come forward and state your name and the location in which you reside?
00:03:03
Seeing no one rush to the microphone, then we will move on from there.
SPEAKER_07
00:03:06
There's no one on Zoom either.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:03:09
There's no one on Zoom?
00:03:11
Thank you, Carolyn.
SPEAKER_07
00:03:12
No, you're welcome.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:03:13
And hello to you this evening.
SPEAKER_07
00:03:15
Hello.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:03:18
If everyone would turn their attention to the consent agenda, we have two items to consider.
00:03:23
Does anyone care to pull any of those items from the consent agenda this evening?
00:03:31
I'd entertain a motion to move forward and accept those items on the consent agenda, please.
00:03:37
So moved.
00:03:38
Second.
00:03:39
Second.
00:03:40
Madam, would you call the roll?
00:03:41
Call for a vote.
SPEAKER_07
00:03:44
Yes.
00:03:44
Mr. Moore?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:03:46
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
00:03:47
Mr. Murray?
00:03:48
Aye.
00:03:51
Ms.
00:03:51
Firehock?
00:03:57
Ms.
00:03:57
Firehock?
00:03:58
Aye.
00:04:00
Sorry.
00:04:01
Mr. Carrazana?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:04:02
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
00:04:04
Mr. Bivins?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:04:05
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
00:04:07
Thank you.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:04:08
Thank you.
00:04:08
This passes.
00:04:09
Moving on to our first item in the public hearing, and that's hearing from staff for ZTA 2023-03, residential density bonus factors.
00:04:21
Please, sir, could we have your report?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:04:24
Yes, I'm Bill Fritz.
00:04:25
I'm with the Community Development Office.
00:04:27
And this is a zoning text amendment that deals with the residential bonus factors.
00:04:32
The zoning ordinance has a provision in it that allows for density to be increased if certain things are done that are of community benefit.
00:04:41
For example, providing affordable housing or preserving wooded areas.
00:04:46
The ordinance also states that, oops, if I plug it in, it would work better is what you're telling me.
00:04:56
The zoning ordinance also states that the density that is achieved via use of the residential density bonus cannot exceed the density recommended in the comprehensive plan.
00:05:10
The zoning administrator made a determination that a project came in and wanted to make use of residential density bonus and the property was in an area designated as office research and development flex light industrial.
00:05:24
That area does not have a cap on the residential density.
00:05:29
Residential is a secondary use in that comprehensive plan area.
00:05:34
So the zoning administrator made a determination that you couldn't use the density bonus because the comprehensive plan did not recommend a density and therefore an increase in the density would be above that in the comprehensive plan.
00:05:47
The Board of Zoning Appeals heard an appeal and decided that in fact the density bonus could be used.
00:05:53
So staff believes that the appropriate thing to do would be to amend the ordinance to achieve the goals of the comprehensive plan.
00:06:02
So we have a very simple change.
00:06:04
Because of it, we had to sort of reformat the text.
00:06:08
But the key of it, it adds a simple sentence.
00:06:10
If no density range or maximum density is shown in the comprehensive plan, no bonus factor may be applied.
00:06:16
So it just makes it very clear density is not to exceed what's recommended in the comprehensive plan.
00:06:23
That's it.
00:06:24
We're recommending approval, and we have two possible motions for you.
00:06:27
Thank you.
00:06:28
Commissioners, any questions for staff?
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:06:36
I did have a question on the discussion materials around housing affordability.
00:06:45
I do realize this hasn't happened a lot.
00:06:48
Sounds like this is the first time.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:06:50
This is the first time that we're aware of that anyone has done that.
00:06:53
We know that we have denied projects who've wanted to use bonus density in the past.
00:06:57
We've said, no, you cannot apply for it.
00:06:59
They did not appeal that.
00:07:01
So one of the things that we're talking about is we've made all the other staff who are working on the bonus, excuse me, working on the comprehensive plan aware of this text amendment.
00:07:10
The comprehensive plan could say, for example, density is capped at 16 units or 15 units per acre unless you provide affordable housing.
00:07:20
This ordinance would be in place then and you would be able to use the bonus factors.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:07:24
So this is in reference to the existing conference of plan rather than the one coming up.
00:07:29
Okay, yeah, the, the bit where it would prevent the use of bonus provision for affordable housing doesn't seem like the kind of priority we have right now.
00:07:39
But I do understand that for clarity's sake.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:07:42
Just to be also to be clear, you're right.
00:07:44
And that's why that's mentioned in the staff report.
00:07:47
What's not mentioned in the staff report is the applicant still has the property owner still has the option of applying for a rezoning to achieve the increase in density using affordable housing as a justification to achieve that rezoning.
00:08:00
Great.
00:08:00
Thank you.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:08:01
OK.
00:08:02
OK.
00:08:08
I've been hearing nothing from the commissioners at the moment, and I will open up and hear from the public.
00:08:15
If there's someone who'd like to speak to us, would you please come forward and remember to state your name and where you're located and welcome.
00:08:22
You most likely know the drill.
00:08:24
There are three lights on the dais, and the green one starts your three minutes, and then from there, the yellow one is you're in the middle of that, and the red one, we will ask you to stop.
00:08:39
and somebody else will do that for you.
SPEAKER_06
00:08:42
My name is Whit Graves.
00:08:44
I currently live at 2385 Corals Road and I am the applicant that ended up in front of the BCA and got the determination.
00:08:52
Actually, Robin and JT Maxwell are the property's owners.
00:08:56
I am with Evergreen Home Builders and I am partnering with them on that property.
00:09:01
I want to take a moment and speak to my larger comments about this ZTA change.
00:09:07
Sorry if that's not the right term, but I also want to point out how it would specifically impact our project, just so you can consider that.
00:09:15
Under the buy right development, we get 21 units.
00:09:20
With the bonus factors, we've bumped up to 28 units, and those seven units are affordable units.
00:09:28
If we did not have those bonus factors, we would then only have 21 units and they would all be market rate units and not affordable.
00:09:37
The bonus factors are really one of the only tools that we have to find creative ways to increase density in Albemarle County.
00:09:47
And so I feel like that on our particular project, not having this available to us would take away affordable housing units that we can put on the market.
00:09:59
I also don't know one of my questions or what I hope we can maybe get some clarity on was whether our particular project would be grandfathered in because we have a preliminary site plan approval based on our BZA meeting or if we would then be back to 21 units and have to redesign our project.
00:10:14
That's probably a conversation for a different time, but I thought it would put it out there as a question.
00:10:20
I do want to make a couple points to the larger issue tonight in seeking to eliminate the use of bonus factors on these properties that have comprehensive plan designation listed as residential as a residential recommended use but not listed as specific density range affiliated with that use.
00:10:37
Sorry, I'm reading from my notes.
00:10:39
This is disproportionately and unfairly impacts property subject to Places 29 Master Plan and the Southern and Western Neighborhoods Master Plan as these two are the only two master plans that have land use designation that's not listed as residential as a recommended use but don't provide density ranges.
00:11:00
The two most recently updated master plans, Crozet Master Plan and Pantops Master Plan, list density ranges for land use designations such as office R&D, flex light industrial, and commercial mixed use that list residential as a recommended use.
00:11:18
Properties within the Places 29 plan and the Southern Western Neighborhoods plans are unfairly impacted simply because their master plans, in my opinion, haven't been updated in more than eight years.
00:11:30
So I want you all to think about our project specifically and then I want you to think about how it might impact other projects.
00:11:37
We are currently applying for a rezoning to take it from R6 to R15 to increase that density.
00:11:43
But that does take a lot of time.
00:11:45
That adds a year to the project, which ultimately makes it that much harder to achieve.
00:11:50
So we just requested, well, I request that you deny the ZTA or at a minimum enact a deferral to allow additional time for property owners impacted by this ZTA to contemplate how it might impact the property.
00:12:03
So thank you for your time.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:12:06
Thank you.
00:12:07
Are there additional?
00:12:08
It turns itself off.
SPEAKER_04
00:12:10
Thank you.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:12:10
Are there additional individuals who would like to speak to this matter?
00:12:19
Carolyn, do we have anyone online who would like to speak to this?
SPEAKER_07
00:12:24
No, sir, we don't.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:12:25
Thank you.
00:12:26
I'm going to call this back to us and I'm going to ask our staff if they would like to respond or I'd like to add comments too.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:12:34
Sure.
00:12:34
There are two main comments that I heard.
00:12:38
One is how it affects this particular project.
00:12:40
If they've received initial site plan approval, they were approved under the prior ordinance and can proceed under the prior ordinance as long as they remain vested.
00:12:48
So as long as that remains valid.
00:12:51
The other issue is how it may disproportionately affect Places 29.
00:12:55
In looking at the action that the Board of Zoning Appeals took, it is theoretically possible, based on the way they made their decision, that this would apply across a much broader range of comprehensive plan designations.
00:13:08
And this would apply to all properties that are conventionally zoned, so not without proffers, with not planned developments,
00:13:16
that are in comprehensive plan designations of open space, for example.
00:13:22
And there are properties that are conventionally zoned that have open space designation on them.
00:13:27
And our opinion is that would be inconsistent to have a density increase on property that's recommended for open space that would be more appropriately done through a zoning action of the Board of Supervisors.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:13:42
Question?
00:13:43
Question, please.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:13:46
I'm wondering if you could get into the weeds a little bit more.
00:13:49
I know that we're not making a zoning decision on this case that was used as an example, because that's already done.
00:14:00
But I'm trying to understand better, what were the bonus density factors they used?
00:14:05
I don't know.
00:14:06
You don't know?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:14:07
I don't remember the factors.
00:14:09
I could look it up.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:14:11
Alright, so the way that I'm understanding this request to change this is that you want to make it abundantly clear that the comprehensive plan is the ruling document and that you cannot pull bonus density factors for lands that the comprehensive plan does not envision to be more densely developed.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:14:31
Correct.
00:14:32
We view the zoning text ordinance as a tool to implement the recommendations of the comprehensive plan and if the comprehensive plan isn't recommending a density
00:14:41
above and beyond that the bonus factor shouldn't be administratively applied.
00:14:46
That should be a decision of the Board of Supervisors during a rezoning.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:14:50
OK, and then just a quick follow up.
00:14:53
So the issue here is that I was trying to make sense of the testimony here.
00:15:02
Is it the case then that, is it true what they said or how would you interpret what they said about the
00:15:09
places where their density is not specified, where they're saying there isn't a range, it just says residential.
00:15:17
And so do you think that's an issue?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:15:19
Yes, no, why?
00:15:22
Yes and no.
00:15:23
It's really what is the intent of the Board of Supervisors, is the intent of the Board of Supervisors to say if your property is already, if you are rezoning the property and you want to do residential, that can be considered as a factor in the rezoning.
00:15:36
If the board intends that bonus density be allowed to achieve affordable housing or a particular thing, that could be written into the comprehensive plan.
00:15:45
But as a tool, the way the ordinance is written today, the way we have interpreted it up until this recent BZA action is
00:15:53
unless the comprehensive plan number is the number you can get through the bonus density.
00:15:59
So we're trying to bring the zoning ordinance into line with the comprehensive plan.
00:16:04
So we would recommend and I have already recommended that in the updated comprehensive plan that it be made clear whether or not bonus factors can be applied if there's an upper limit or if it can be applied for certain things but not other things.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:16:18
So in the process of updating our comprehensive plan, we will do that diligence so that we can be clear for everyone.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:16:26
All right.
00:16:26
And then if the zoning ordinance needs to be amended and catch up to a revised comprehensive plan, that'd be the time to do it.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:16:32
OK.
00:16:32
Thank you.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:16:33
The question on this about, please,
00:16:40
Just what I'm hearing though is that like this proposal was in sort of like an R6 zone with a proposal to boost up to R15.
00:16:49
How does that, I mean, each of those comes with Bi-Rite residential with sort of density allowances and bonus factors that are considered.
00:16:56
How is this also then like office light industrial that needs this amendment to it?
00:17:02
I don't quite get, is it an overlay?
00:17:04
Sure.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:17:04
So, uh, let me, let me say one thing to be clear.
00:17:07
This is, this zoning text amendment is not about any project.
00:17:11
It was about a decision of the board of zoning appeal.
00:17:13
So I don't know the details of the project that led to the appeal.
00:17:17
My focus is on what the BZA did.
00:17:20
So, uh, the office that, that particular comprehensive plan recommendation includes office industrial includes a lot of things in it and says,
00:17:30
and residential as a secondary use.
00:17:32
I'm doing this all from memory.
00:17:34
There are a number of districts, a number of areas in the comprehensive plan that do that.
00:17:39
And it just says and residential as a secondary use.
00:17:41
It doesn't give a number.
00:17:43
Whereas if you go into low density residential, there's a range and high density, there's a range.
00:17:48
And then for certain areas, the comprehensive plan does list a specific range.
00:17:53
It says 34 units an acre.
00:17:55
And so if somebody came in for a bonus density,
00:18:00
If they qualify, they can go up to 34 dwelling units per acre.
00:18:03
But if it just says residential, this language would say you don't qualify for a bonus density, an administrative bonus density.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
00:18:12
If I might add to that, I think Mr. Fritz is hitting on the issue here in that when the comprehensive plan doesn't specify a numerical density, that's what the zoning text amendment is designed to address is when there's not a numeric density in the comprehensive plan.
00:18:27
For example, the Places 29 master plan,
00:18:30
for the office R&D Flex and Light Industrial currently specifies residential as a secondary land use in this designation, doesn't give a number.
00:18:39
And so the zoning text amendment is designed to address those situations where the comprehensive plan doesn't give a number.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:18:50
So if I'm just looking at the zoning map, and there's, you know, purple zones that indicate, you know, particular plan development or other
00:19:01
shades of brown and orange that indicate different R factors.
00:19:06
but those aren't like just on the map is not the whole information anymore.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:19:10
This language currently and the proposed language would not apply to any property that is a planned development neighborhood model PRD or any of those would not apply to those or to any property that is subject to proffers that limits the amount of development so this would be only applicable and it has always been only applicable to conventionally zoned
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
00:19:37
And you would have to consider the interplay between the zoning district on the one hand and the comprehensive plan on the other.
00:19:43
The zoning gives you the base by which you would calculate the density on top of it, but then you would also need to look for the comprehensive plan to see what the cap would be on the available bonus density.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:20:03
And so is there anything else that you'd like us to know?
00:20:06
I'm happy to answer any questions you have.
00:20:09
And you still said that if there was a desired change, there's a path for that to happen.
00:20:13
Yes.
00:20:15
OK.
00:20:15
So this doesn't freeze out opportunities.
00:20:17
It just delineates the opportunity on this particular type of plan.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:20:22
It limits the opportunity for an administrative bonus density to be given if it exceeds the density recommended in the comprehensive plan.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:20:29
Versus a legislative one?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:20:31
Versus a legislative that's always available.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:20:33
So there are options.
00:20:35
Other conversations, discussions?
00:20:38
No?
00:20:39
Are we ready to vote?
00:20:40
Yes.
00:20:41
Madam, would you call the roll, please?
00:20:44
I'm sorry.
00:20:45
Has there been a motion?
00:20:45
I made a motion.
00:20:46
Sorry.
00:20:46
Sorry.
00:20:47
Sorry.
00:20:47
Sorry.
00:20:47
Sorry.
00:20:47
Sorry.
00:20:48
Sorry.
00:20:49
Yeah, I have to give you something to vote on.
00:20:50
Yeah, give you something to vote on.
00:20:51
Would somebody like to thank you?
00:20:53
There are the possible motions.
00:20:55
Would someone care to make one or one of the two?
00:20:58
I'm going to choose one of the two.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:21:01
I move to recommend the approval of CTA 202300 residential density bonus factor with the conditions contained in Article 2.
00:21:11
Sorry, an attachment or something.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:21:14
Second.
00:21:15
So it's been moved and seconded.
00:21:16
Is there any further discussion?
00:21:20
Madam, now.
00:21:22
I'm getting back into the role here.
00:21:24
You have to excuse me.
00:21:25
It's been a couple of years since I've had to have this kind of attention.
00:21:29
Madam, would you now call the roll, please, for this vote?
SPEAKER_07
00:21:33
Yes.
00:21:33
Mr. Carrazana?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:21:34
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
00:21:37
Mr. Bivins?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:21:39
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
00:21:41
Ms.
00:21:41
Firehock?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:21:42
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
00:21:44
Mr. Murray?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:21:45
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
00:21:47
Mr. Moore?
00:21:48
Aye.
00:21:50
Thank you.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:21:51
Thank you.
00:21:51
That's passed and we will now move on to the next item of our public hearing this this evening.
00:21:58
And that's SP202304, Briary Creek Farm or or hope to be known as Prevention Farm.
00:22:06
And there's two items there.
00:22:08
There's both the water related uses and the boarding camp, which is SP202305.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:22:16
We'll be doing the presentation on both and I'm assuming you're going to be doing the public hearing at the same time?
00:22:21
Absolutely.
00:22:22
Thank you.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:22:27
So there are two special use permits in Albemarle County.
00:22:30
The docks, boating, beaches on the lake require a special use permit because they're in the floodplain.
00:22:36
The boarding camp also requires a special use permit.
00:22:39
The application also includes a central water and sewer system.
00:22:42
That request, the central water and sewer system, was reviewed only by the Board of Supervisors.
00:22:47
It isn't before the Planning Commission tonight.
00:22:50
The applicant has applied for permits in Fluvanna County for a camp, a special event facility, and the central water and sewer system.
00:23:00
They do theirs a little bit different, and I don't remember the exact names.
00:23:04
I have been in contact with the Fluvanna planner to coordinate the review, the project details, identify concerns, impacts, and the public hearing with the Planning Commission in Fluvanna will likely happen in October.
00:23:18
So this map shows the portion of the property that's in Albemarle and Fluvanna.
00:23:23
This map is oriented with West at the top, North is to the right, and the portion of the project in Fluvanna I've shaded in red for you.
00:23:33
All the orientation of the maps that's in your packet and will be presented to you tonight is the same.
00:23:39
So Albemarle is to the left here.
00:23:42
It just fits on a page much better.
00:23:47
So what's going on in Albemarle?
00:23:49
What's going on with this project?
00:23:50
Well, there's an entrance highlighted for you here that's in Fluvanna.
00:23:54
There's an exit that's also in Fluvanna.
00:23:57
There's emergency access also in Fluvanna.
00:24:01
There are pastures which are in both Albemarle and Fluvanna.
00:24:04
There's an arts and craft house that's in Albemarle County.
00:24:08
There's a fitness facility, beach and docks.
00:24:12
There's a pool facility.
00:24:14
There's a dining facility with a camp store, beaches, and docks.
00:24:21
Dots should be bigger than that, but it's all in that basic area.
00:24:25
There's a health and wellness facility, and there's a meadow.
00:24:30
There will also be trails provided throughout the property, including on the south side of the lake, the left side of this map.
00:24:38
The applicant has submitted an extensive application information for both special use permits and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.
00:24:45
The information and plans submitted have been reviewed and staff is recommending approval of both applications.
00:24:51
The project will require site plan approval.
00:24:54
This process will address stormwater issues, mark the extent of the WPO buffers and ensure that access, health, safety and fire safety issues are addressed.
00:25:06
Sorry, I left off one thing.
00:25:07
The areas here, this is where the cabins are.
00:25:10
So I'll just do that again.
00:25:13
So that's where the cabins are in Albemarle County.
00:25:20
Instead of going through the entire presentation and staff report, because it's rather lengthy, I'd rather just answer any questions you have if you'd like, or I can go through a more formal presentation.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:25:29
That's fine.
00:25:30
I think we can tease it out if necessary.
00:25:32
Great.
00:25:32
Thanks.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:25:37
Yeah, I've got one question.
00:25:39
Please.
00:25:40
So if this property was developed by right into housing, how many houses could one put there?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:25:47
I believe it's 54.
00:25:48
I think that's in the staff report, but I believe it's 54.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:25:53
Thanks.
00:25:55
On just the Albemarle side?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:25:57
On just the Albemarle side.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:25:58
OK.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:26:06
Excuse me, the permitted by-right residential development of the property in Albemarle is 38 lots, don't know where I got 54 from.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:26:16
Okay, it's hard for me to tell from the, I did look at the entire application.
00:26:22
I'm having trouble determining how far the houses are really set back from the lake and whether there's a buffer provided
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:26:32
The only buffer will be, they will meet the 100-foot buffer.
00:26:38
And when you look through their application information, that's actually shown in the application information in that big 115-page document that's in there.
00:26:48
But it's also just a requirement of the ordinance.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:26:50
And then the docks as our parking.
00:26:54
I mean, it's a big camp, so like I can imagine somebody might want to use the lake, but they drive to it to have an understanding of how much pavement will be occurring near the docks.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:27:03
So when you look at the when you look at the plan, you can see there is some parking, but it's not within the buffer.
00:27:09
It's it's back away from the buffer.
00:27:11
The only thing that would be permitted within the buffer is going to be the docs and the water related activities which can include the
00:27:18
the racks and storage for canoes, kayaks, things like that.
00:27:22
And the beach, those are the only things that will be within the WPO buffer and they are permitted.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:27:27
And since we are not at the site plan stage yet, we don't know what the surfacing will be on the parking lots?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:27:33
No, we do not know the materials.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:27:35
Or the roads, do we know if the roads will be gravel or... They'll be paved.
00:27:39
Paved asphalt, okay.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:27:43
They will need to be surface stable.
00:27:46
We believe that based on my evaluation, not done the site plan, but knowing what I know, I believe they will have to be paved throughout in order to achieve the fire access.
00:27:59
We may be able to go with some other, we'll work with them though, but it'll have to be stabilized.
00:28:04
For purposes of stormwater runoff, they will be considered 100% impervious, whether they're gravel or... Right, okay, thank you.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:28:14
I'm going to pass for now.
00:28:21
Mr. Murray, did you have additional questions?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:28:24
Yeah, another question I had is about reversibility.
00:28:26
So, um if sorry, um it's about reversibility.
00:28:32
If if for some
00:28:38
Then what would be the fate of these cabins?
00:28:40
What is the plan for returning it back to its original state?
00:28:43
Is there a plan, Artie?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:28:45
There is no plan.
00:28:47
I mean, they could be demolished, but there is no plan to reclaim the property to an agricultural operation.
00:28:56
Nor have we done that on other camps.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:29:08
Thanks, Bill.
00:29:09
Presentations.
00:29:10
You pointed out the entrances and exits and emergency exits on the Flugbanna side.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:29:15
Sure.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:29:17
Are there no, there's no access to the site on the Albemarle side?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:29:22
Because I thought I saw a The only access, the only place where this fronts, where it fronts Public Road is right along here in Albemarle County.
00:29:33
That very top right portion
00:29:38
That's the only portion that fronts where the property has frontage on Rolling Road.
00:29:46
But that's not currently used as an access?
00:29:49
No, no, the access, the current access is down here.
00:29:52
There's access down here.
00:29:53
There's access down here.
00:29:55
There's access here.
00:29:57
Excuse me, there is no access here.
00:29:58
The access is farther down here.
00:29:59
I had my ear out in the wrong place.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:30:04
Thank you.
00:30:07
Do we have a sense yet of, while I realize we're not at the site prep period, do we have a sense of what the cabins will look like and whether or not there'll be different types of cabins and the material of the cabins?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:30:23
So that information's in the packet.
00:30:25
They're looking at a variety of number of bedrooms and kitchen styles and layouts and things like that.
00:30:33
Obviously, we don't have any building plans yet.
00:30:36
The applicant would be in a better position to answer that question than I would be.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:30:40
So then another question I have.
00:30:41
So when we have Fire and Rescue come down to look at this, one of the not interesting things, one of the unfortunate things about this particular area is that there is no cell service.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:30:52
That was an issue of this, that was a topic of discussion during the, there were two community meetings for this, that was brought up.
00:31:04
That is true.
00:31:05
Fire Rescue has been involved in this and one of the
00:31:10
The one thing that this has that a lot of developments don't have is very good water access so they can put in dry hydrants and access to the lakes to give that firefighting ability.
00:31:22
And of course, the site plan is going to be reviewed to make sure it meets building code requirements, access requirements, and things like that for public safety.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:31:32
OK, thank you.
00:31:33
And do we have a sense of why we're recommending 200, where I think I saw in their document it was 250?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:31:39
It's a total of 250 and that's one of the things with coordinating with Fluvanna County.
00:31:44
Fluvanna is looking at a condition of 50 on theirs and we're looking at a condition of 200 on ours.
00:31:51
And if you look at, for example, if you look at the conditions, even have some conditions to say that the facilities on site can only be used by those staying in Cabins and Albemarle and Fluvanna, they're looking at having similar language for
00:32:04
Albemarle, Florida.
00:32:04
So we're conjoined in that way.
00:32:06
We're trying to coordinate that because it does straddle the boundary.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:32:10
Thank you.
00:32:11
Are there other questions before we go to the public?
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:32:15
Just one that sort of came in by email that I was just going to echo and find out more if there's plans is accessing it.
00:32:21
I realize the entrances are from Savannah, but in terms of getting to say amenities in Scottsville or otherwise, there's concern about Briary Creek Road being going, fording across an actual creek.
00:32:32
And I just wanted to hear if there's any plans from the county or the developer or otherwise for some kind of improvement down that way.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:32:41
There are no plans for improvement to the crossing.
00:32:45
The applicant has stated, and I'll let them elaborate how they plan to make sure that their customers are aware of better routes that are available to them.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:32:57
Anything else before we go to the public?
00:33:02
Open it up and hear from the applicant.
00:33:04
And please, whoever comes to present, if you would remember to state your name and the company.
00:33:10
And you perhaps heard the drill on the box there.
00:33:12
So you have a green light and then you have a yellow light and then you have a red light.
00:33:15
And we're hoping that you're close to being finished when the red light comes on.
00:33:21
I'll do my best to keep it in time.
SPEAKER_04
00:33:28
There we go.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:33:35
My screen's frozen, so I'll have to work from up here if you don't mind.
00:33:39
Good evening, commissioners.
00:33:41
First off, I'd like to say thank you for your time and for making consideration for our project.
00:33:47
My name's Bill Rafool.
00:33:48
I'm Senior Vice President of Development for Sun Communities, Inc., which is the applicant for the proposed project.
00:33:55
I'm joined this evening by our local council, Steve Blaine, our civil engineer, Greg Schmidt from Kimley Horn.
00:34:01
In the event that you have additional questions, they'll be available to answer them on a technical level if needed.
00:34:05
To start by introducing our company, let's see if I can make this work here.
00:34:13
Look at this.
00:34:14
You should just be able to use the right and left arrow keys to advance page by page.
00:34:19
So Sun Communities, Inc.
00:34:21
was founded in 1975.
00:34:24
by our current CEO's father.
00:34:26
We went public in 1993.
00:34:29
We have grown today to own and steward over 670 properties in the United States, Ontario, and the United Kingdom.
00:34:38
Despite our size, we uniquely operate very much like a family company.
00:34:44
As I noted, the CEO of the company is the son of the founder of the company and his son, who works with us here on this particular project.
00:34:53
I mention that because this project is unlike all but maybe one other project in our entire portfolio.
00:35:02
It represents the passion of our CEO for the outdoors, for connecting people with nature.
00:35:09
It's born from his childhood growing up at summer camps.
00:35:14
A few years back, we acquired a community called El Capitan Canyon from a gentleman who we've known for decades through our company.
00:35:23
and who has uniquely positioned this property in Santa Barbara to create a very special outdoor experience, something that connected very well with Gary, our CEO, on a very existential level.
00:35:39
We have been chosen by that man to steward his legacy and we have selectively looked for other opportunities around the country to continue to extend that mission.
00:35:51
This particular property happened to be listed for sale, so it was brought to our attention.
00:35:57
I would almost say that it sought us out.
00:36:00
It's a beautiful 750 acre piece of property.
00:36:04
It is exactly what allows us to create exceptional places for people to connect with nature.
00:36:12
So I would start also by saying that we've taken great care to try to align
00:36:18
the development of this piece of property with the vision for the rural area in Albemarle County.
00:36:25
The first place we started was the comprehensive plan.
00:36:29
And we understand the vision for the comprehensive plan to be ultimately about rural preservation, development of agricultural resources, scenic preservation, making sure that the visitor experience for people who come to rural Albemarle County is reflective of that culture and heritage.
00:36:47
and everything that we've done to date has been meant to try and take this property, reflect that, enhance it, and provide an opportunity for people to come and enjoy that while preserving as much of its natural character as is feasible and possible.
00:37:04
So we'll get right into the program.
00:37:07
There are a number of elements that are proposed here and Bill was kind enough to provide a very high level overview of many of the improvements that are identified on the property but ultimately what's proposed here are camping cottages and we will have an opportunity to review sort of an aesthetic precedent study that talks a little bit about the architectural inspiration that will inform as we develop.
00:37:29
Outdoor recreation, hiking and biking, horseback riding,
00:37:33
The intention is to have a bonafide agricultural operation.
00:37:37
Right now there's cattle on the property, they have a calving operation, every small calving operation, hay.
00:37:43
They have small vineyards down the property currently.
00:37:46
Our intention would be to develop the agricultural resources to be a working farm that people can interact with on the property.
00:37:53
In addition to that, rural preservation is the key.
00:37:56
Our experience for the guests that we would hope to entertain is the experience of authentically being in a farm environment and to be reconnected with nature.
00:38:05
We expect our customers will be coming from Washington DC and other large metropolitan areas with the express desire to disconnect.
00:38:13
So our vision ultimately not only is aligned as we presented here, but the vision of the guest experience ultimately should naturally continue to drive our incentives to keep it exactly that way.
00:38:28
Looking at the map here, this is the existing conditions of the property that you just saw with Bill's map minus the shading.
00:38:35
I think this gives a better understanding without the shading to see really how much open space there is currently on the property.
00:38:42
Noting that a lot of this is in Fluvanna County, the way that we've planned this isn't necessarily respective to either county per se.
00:38:49
It was really about maximizing the view corridors on the property, maximizing the agricultural experience,
00:38:55
and creating the right guest experience that again meets all of these planning principles for the property as a whole.
00:39:05
So project philosophy.
00:39:07
We've engaged a land planner.
00:39:09
EDSA is our landscape architect and master planner.
00:39:12
They aren't here with us today, but they have been present at many of our public meetings to hear public comments directly.
00:39:18
We also have our civil engineer again, Kimberly Horn, that's working with us on the project.
00:39:22
And the philosophy began
00:39:24
with listening to the land.
00:39:26
Our land planners spent an extensive amount of time on this property on foot, finding all of its natural features, taking an inventory of its natural assets, and planning around how we can use those assets and preserve them in a way that helps to balance both the preservation elements and the guest experience elements.
00:39:47
So as we move forward to the planning, and I apologize, oh, you will be able to see my cursor now.
00:39:51
This is great.
00:39:53
The area that you're looking at where I'm circling will ultimately be preserved in its natural state as an agricultural operation.
00:40:01
It's currently Hayfields.
00:40:03
We would anticipate this being an equestrian center where we would have a number of forces.
00:40:09
We would do horseback riding.
00:40:11
So as you're looking at the scenic corridor coming up Rolling Road here, it would ultimately look virtually identical to what it looks like today, only with the addition of horses.
00:40:22
We also, as we thought through the process of the arrival experience here, we are creating a one-way traffic where you come along Rolling Road, you come down Briary Creek, and it's a one-way entrance here and then a one-way exit here, again, trying to minimize the impacts to the road in this particular corner.
00:40:42
All of the cabins that we've located, we've located nearest to the interior of the property where it minimizes any visual impacts to the surrounding property.
00:40:52
We're fortunate that the property is 744 acres and so it gave us ample space to sort of spread out while still creating a visual barrier and not getting into what could potentially be a concern to the neighbors.
00:41:08
Speaking of the neighbors, we've held two community events.
00:41:12
The high level concerns that were brought up from the community were noise from events, site security and screening, conservation and traffic, and understanding I'll be running low on time here.
00:41:23
I'm going to touch briefly on each of these.
00:41:26
There is currently an event venue on the property located here.
00:41:30
It is a noise concern for the community currently.
00:41:33
We would be moving this to the interior of the property and orienting any noise related direction into the interior of the property, ultimately eliminating that concern, which was a great relief to the neighbors and to Fluvanna County.
00:41:47
Concerns about screening in the areas where we get a little closer to the road.
00:41:50
We would address this with site screening in this area.
00:41:54
The site security issue was located here.
00:41:57
There is a neighboring property owner that was concerned about potential trespassing on his property.
00:42:02
We've presented the idea of creating a fence line here, although it would have to be evaluated for any wildlife impacts notwithstanding.
00:42:09
But it's also been a condition presented on the project that we would have no trespassing signs.
00:42:13
We'll also have 24-hour on-site security.
00:42:19
Speaking of conservation, roughly 90% of this property will be preserved in open space and natural states.
00:42:26
You can see there's very small contained development envelopes here, and even within those development envelopes, they'll primarily be retained as landscaped areas in open space.
00:42:38
Again, we spoke a bit about traffic and access.
00:42:42
You can see the one-way traffic again meant to minimize this and also to answer a question that was raised regarding traffic.
00:42:49
We would work with Google and other mapping agencies or centralized mapping agencies to make sure all online traffic routing routes people away from the fjord.
00:42:57
I've actually had to drive through that fjord myself, so I understand the concern.
00:43:01
And in addition to that, we would have signage recommended to make sure that people are going in the right directions.
00:43:08
In terms of community benefits, again, preservation of rural character, 750 acres of which 90% of which would be preserved.
00:43:18
We provide needed accommodations in the rural area.
00:43:21
Right now there's very few places to stay that contain that outside of Airbnbs and the few lodging operations that exist.
00:43:28
In terms of job creation, we had an economic impact study that was created and we would create hundreds of jobs and tens of millions of dollars in economic impact.
00:43:37
I am out of time and I appreciate everybody's consideration.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:43:40
Do you have key points that you'd like to leave us with?
00:43:44
Plus, if there's public comment, we'll give you another chance to come back and respond.
00:43:48
I appreciate that.
00:43:49
So if you've got a key point that you want to end now with, you're going to get another opportunity.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:43:53
The key point that I'd like to leave with you is that our values and our vision are aligned for this property with what we believe the county wants to see in terms of balancing economic development with preservation of the natural character of this property.
00:44:06
and we're proud of having the opportunity to be able to help to showcase what you've outlined for this community.
00:44:13
Thank you.
00:44:19
Any additional questions?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:44:20
Well, I need to see if there are people in the audience or online who'd like to speak and then we'll come back to you.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
00:44:27
Mr. Chair, it actually would be appropriate at this time if any commissioners have questions of the applicant to raise those questions at this time.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:44:36
Okay.
00:44:36
I didn't want to wait because I think there's, I don't think we have many pressing, but that's okay.
00:44:41
We can do that right now.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
00:44:42
I mean, the commissioners can also hold their questions for the rebuttal time too, but it's, I do know that.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:44:47
Does anyone have a question that they have right now?
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:44:50
I have one, but you guys have.
00:44:51
All right.
00:44:54
In your report, you talked about, you obviously have these various dam crossings and I think there was mention made of the need to evaluate their safety.
00:45:03
Have you, do you also have mapped the,
00:45:06
The potential failure zone if the dam were to fail so that you know that you can't put any of the cabins in those zones?
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:45:14
The short answer is yes.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:45:16
Can you pull this back towards you, please?
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:45:19
Yes, of course.
00:45:19
Thank you very much.
00:45:20
Thank you.
00:45:21
The short answer is yes.
00:45:22
And I can have Greg come up and evaluate very specifically what the structural engineers are evaluating currently on the property.
00:45:29
We anticipate having those studies.
00:45:31
And we've had preliminary studies conducted.
00:45:33
We have additional studies specifically on the regulated dams.
00:45:36
that are happening right now to make sure that both they are safe and they're structurally sound for what we're proposing and yes we would have to have a dam failure safety plan in place and I believe that's certainly specifically for the regulated dams.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:45:50
Yeah I just want to make sure there are no lodging proposed downstream of where the failure zone would be because under the state's dam safety act you are changing the level of dam safety that's required
00:46:04
You're changing the class of dam because you're putting people below it potentially.
00:46:08
I just want to make sure whether or not any of the because I didn't see that mapped that zone and I just want to make and not to be rude to you but I have seen other people who haven't done that and then had to change their plan because they put their
00:46:23
housing in the wrong place.
00:46:25
So I'm trying to get some assurance that where you've laid the cabins isn't in any zone where a failure of the dam would cause inundation to any of those properties.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:46:35
That's an excellent question.
00:46:37
And Greg, if you want to come up and maybe you can sort of address very specifically your question.
00:46:42
Greg will be able to address this more technically.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:46:44
I'm sure those dams were built some time ago.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:46:48
The names were all built in the late 60s, early 70s based on aerial photos.
SPEAKER_00
00:46:52
Right.
00:46:52
Bill has the history.
00:46:54
Commissioners, thank you for your time.
00:46:56
Greg Schmidt with Kinley-Horn.
00:46:58
As Bill has stated, I am the civil engineer on the project related to dam safety.
00:47:04
There are two regulated dams specifically that we are analyzing.
00:47:08
We are working with A. Morton Thomas, who does a lot of the dam safety work for the county themselves.
00:47:13
and they are actively engaged with DCR on completion of the dam break inundation zone study at this time.
00:47:20
That has not been completed to date.
00:47:24
That is in process and that includes all the inspections, safety plans, emergency action plans that are associated with that DCR permitting.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:47:33
So should you find, I assume then you would complete that prior to the site plan.
SPEAKER_00
00:47:39
Yes, ma'am.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:47:40
And then you would be able if you found that any of the inundation zones that could happen during a failure.
00:47:46
would not contain any living quarters?
SPEAKER_00
00:47:49
Yes, ma'am, that is correct.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:47:50
OK.
SPEAKER_00
00:47:50
And it is deceiving on the schematic drawings, but where those cottages are located, they are tens of feet above the water elevations in that area.
00:48:02
OK.
00:48:04
Staying outside of the 100 foot buffer.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:48:05
OK.
SPEAKER_00
00:48:06
So.
00:48:07
We are analyzing it.
00:48:09
We will adjust as necessary, but it is in process.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:48:12
OK, and then the roads, some of the roads go over them, is that right?
SPEAKER_00
00:48:16
Yes, ma'am.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:48:16
So you're also evaluating them for their ability to support additional traffic, because I imagine so far in the past, maybe it's just been a tractor going over or something.
SPEAKER_00
00:48:25
Yes, ma'am, that is correct.
00:48:26
We've located pretty much all the dam crossings where existing agricultural crossings are.
00:48:32
We do have a geotechnical engineer that has been out on site.
00:48:35
Their report is due to us in the next week or so.
00:48:39
The preliminary information I've received is there's nothing that looks out of norm for their ability to be able to support fire trucks, emergency vehicles.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:48:48
OK, thank you.
SPEAKER_00
00:48:49
Thank you.
00:48:51
Luis.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:48:55
Pointed out one neighbor, the one with the concern about the security fencing.
00:49:01
Is that the only house that abuts or is near the property?
00:49:06
On that side of the road, yes.
00:49:07
All the other ones are across the street.
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:49:09
Are across the street, correct.
00:49:11
And that property that they showed the fencing on is in Fluvanna.
00:49:16
So that don't need to be a condition on the Fluvanna.
00:49:18
You're right.
00:49:18
Especially to prevent these maps.
00:49:20
Because it's on that side.
00:49:22
Albemarle and all these backups.
00:49:24
And that's one of the things that we've been coordinating.
00:49:26
And virtually all of the neighbors are in Fluvanna County as well.
00:49:29
Yes.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:49:29
And they're all along that road in Fluvanna.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:49:31
The 620, isn't it?
00:49:33
The 620?
00:49:35
Yeah.
00:49:36
I think that's 620.
00:49:36
Yeah, I think that's right.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:49:39
Thank you.
00:49:40
Yeah, I think he flipped.
00:49:42
That's upside down.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:49:59
I'll ask another question then.
00:50:01
Lonnie and I kind of take turns asking this question of everybody, so don't feel too special.
00:50:06
But what we want to know is, I heard about commitment to the land and preservation.
00:50:12
I even heard you say wildlife.
00:50:13
That was exciting for me.
00:50:16
Do you have any information about sustainability features that you would be introducing?
00:50:22
For example, are you going to have cisterns to capture roof runoff?
00:50:25
Are you going to use permeable pavement for any of the parking areas?
00:50:29
Are you doing any what we call low impact development approaches to make this a truly green development?
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:50:37
So that's an excellent question.
00:50:39
As a company Sun Communities is an ESG rated company.
00:50:43
And so as such, we have to make commitments that we are ultimately reducing our impact on the land.
00:50:53
And, you know, when we look at our existing portfolio, there's very limited opportunities for us to do that.
00:50:58
When we look at a development like this, we look at this as an opportunity to showcase those values.
00:51:03
So the answer is yes, I don't have specific details because we're not there in the planning process yet, but
00:51:07
I can give you one framework that we've been evaluating to help us to guide our planning principles is specifically BREEM community development, B-R-E-E-A-M, and many of the planning principles in terms of energy use and conservation.
00:51:22
As a company, we're making a commitment to get to net zero by, I believe, 2037.
00:51:28
Water use and conservation, wildlife and habitat management, wetland preservation, forest management, and certainly in some of our other properties fire wising and, you know, the forest management necessary to contain wildfires is very, very important to us.
00:51:45
But all of those principles will go into a resource management plan.
00:51:50
And we would look to showcase that even to our investors.
00:51:52
So I hope that answers your questions efficiently.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:51:54
Mostly.
00:51:55
I look forward to seeing the details when you get to that stage.
00:51:57
I mean, we talked about fencing around one of the landowners because they're worried about trespass.
00:52:01
But then you did mention wildlife.
00:52:03
So as you probably know, you can make smaller openings in fence for things like quail to dart in and out of the smaller mammals, but not the two-legged.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:52:15
We have to be considerate of that.
00:52:16
I don't know that we have enough information about the wildlife traffic patterns on the property yet, but generally what we do is we work to create areas, safe zones for wildlife so that there's areas where the humans have activities and there's areas where the wildlife are able to have their activities and we create sort of a natural pathway for that to occur.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:52:36
Right.
00:52:36
I mean, I imagine you're going to be meeting with various natural resource professionals who work for our wonderful agencies, even the meadow that you mentioned that people may want to play in the meadow.
00:52:47
Even meadows need management to keep them.
00:52:49
I mean, if you want to have them to be biodiverse, so controlled burns, there's various things that you do to manage a meadow.
00:52:56
So it's actually a really healthy meadow.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:52:59
So I would be remiss if I said I was the professional to be able to speak to the specifics that you're asking.
00:53:06
But our commitment to creating that plan for this property is, again, aligned with exactly what we're looking to educate the general public on.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:53:15
OK, thank you.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:53:18
Great question.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:53:23
Yes, and I apologize if this was in there somewhere and I missed it.
00:53:27
Do you have an assessment of how many gallons of water will be used?
SPEAKER_00
00:53:34
Give you a specific answer.
00:53:38
So right now our max day demand is 35 gallons per minute.
00:53:45
We're anticipating in accordance with the Virginia Department of Health Code for campsites, camp units, that we will be using 100 gallons per day per campsite.
00:53:56
That is split between two well sites.
00:53:59
Those well sites, the test wells have already been drilled.
00:54:02
They've already had drawdown tests completed.
00:54:05
They were drilled under a certified hydrogeologist and
00:54:11
Those wells are capable of producing 60 gallons per minute in a max day scenario.
00:54:17
Anything related to peak hour demand, we will design the tankage, the volume storage as necessary to maintain the levels and allow for recharge and things like that.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:54:31
Thanks.
00:54:31
And then the other question is, what are the average size of these cabins?
00:54:36
I can kind of get a visual picture of some of them,
00:54:40
Give me an idea of the square footage.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:54:43
You might need to speak in the mic because we're recording.
00:54:49
Thank you.
00:54:49
400 to 600 square feet is the current plan.
00:54:53
400 to 600 square feet, excuse me.
00:54:55
And I would also just like to clarify that there would not be kitchen facilities, like full kitchen cooking facilities.
00:55:02
As was noted earlier, I just recalled that from Bill's note.
00:55:07
So there would be a sink, there would be areas for food preparation, but we wouldn't have a stove per se where people are gonna be traditionally cooking like a home.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:55:17
And then lastly, as I asked Steph earlier, I've had friends who've had campgrounds that have gone belly up.
00:55:26
You seem like you have a solid plan here, but in the worst case scenario where this does go belly up, what happens to all these cabinets?
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:55:35
Well, that's a very good question.
00:55:37
That's certainly our problem notwithstanding.
00:55:42
We would never hope that a project that we would engage in would be a failure.
00:55:48
What I can say is that our company's resources are unmatched by any owners of any campgrounds.
00:55:54
and so our ability to reposition our assets is consequently similarly unmatched.
00:56:02
So in the event that this were failure, our incentives would be to repurpose this for some other use and so it would be in our best interest to repurpose this property in some way that it became economically viable and whatever was remaining in terms of economic productivity.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:56:22
This may be more of a question for staff than the applicant, but the property is currently in land use.
00:56:29
You've indicated you want to keep it agricultural in nature.
00:56:33
I know our current land use regulations, you know, there's two acres for every home site is pulled out of land use.
00:56:42
How does it work in a situation like this where you don't have homes per se, you have cabins?
Bill Fritz
Development Process Manager
00:56:47
What is the... I can't answer that question.
00:56:51
That's a finance question that I don't have any expertise on, so I'm sorry.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:56:55
I'm just wondering how much of this would be potentially pulled out of land use, but I guess that's not a question we can answer.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:57:03
As I was just looking through listening, of course, these guys are great on environmental questions.
00:57:10
I was hoping to hear more about the kinds of jobs, the number of jobs for a site this size.
00:57:14
Your company has a lot of experience proposing, building and managing these kinds of operations and kind of how this fits in your assessment of the local tourism economy.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:57:26
So, as I mentioned before, we have an economic impact study prepared for the project.
00:57:32
I was
00:57:32
Very quick in trying to answer that question within the time and I apologize for that.
00:57:36
The expectation is that, again, assuming full build out, up to 800 direct and indirect jobs from construction, roughly $110 million in economic output, generally from the investment in development of the project.
00:57:52
In terms of recurring jobs, up to 163 direct and indirect jobs.
00:57:57
I would think roughly 100 to 130 of those would actually be directly employed on the property.
00:58:03
Many of those jobs would be service related but also agricultural related.
00:58:07
In addition to that, we'll have management, sales, marketing professionals, and the like that support, you know, full scale, you know, boarding camp operation that you've seen here.
00:58:18
In terms of revenues, the expectation is that it will generate $79 million over 25 years in general fund revenues, so roughly $2.6 million a year upon stabilization, again, assuming full build-out based on this economic impact study.
00:58:37
And again, that's based on the full project, so some of that benefit would float to Fluvanna.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:58:47
In terms of the full project, are you envisioning this as a one phase development or is this going to be a phased development?
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:58:56
So, you know, initial conversations that we had specifically with Donna Price when we were initially sort of working through our plan to make sure that, you know, what we were proposing was not crazy.
00:59:10
We got the indication that asking for the most that we would ever plan to do is what's appropriate.
00:59:17
And so we followed that principle.
00:59:19
We didn't pull the number 250 units out of a hat.
00:59:23
Our project in Santa Barbara has roughly 160 cabins.
00:59:28
It's entitled for an additional 100.
00:59:31
We would see the demand in this area similar to what we experienced there.
00:59:35
So the answer is yes, we believe that we may phase this, that we would probably phase this development.
00:59:40
We haven't established exactly what those phase plans look like, but I would think we would be in a first phase of 100, 250 cabins, and then we would continue to add from there as demand requires.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
00:59:51
So you haven't thought through the phasing in which?
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
00:59:54
100 to 150 cabins at this point.
00:59:56
There are certain considerations that we'll look at at the time once we have a bona fide development budget.
01:00:04
You know, we also have to look at sort of where natural phase lines will be drawn.
01:00:08
And so some of that will impact that as well.
01:00:09
That's why I give ourselves a range.
01:00:10
But I would say it would be more than 100 and around maybe 150 cabinets in a first phase, expecting that we would then add subsequently there after.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:00:18
Is that between both counties?
01:00:19
Correct.
01:00:20
Thank you.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:00:25
I have one weird question.
01:00:27
Okay.
01:00:28
I'm just curious.
01:00:29
So is your facility going to, I know this is like really like summer camp for adults in a way, but is your facility going to have say like small tour buses, like, you know, vans that eight people can get in and they all want to go winery hopping?
01:00:46
I'm just trying to think about what, I know you want everyone to stay there and spend their money inside the camp, but I imagine there's going to be excursions.
01:00:54
Are you going to have like a service or are you going to have those kind of, because we have a lot of services here where you have tour buses that take people to wineries and I'm just curious if you're going to be running that or you're going to encourage people to use that or?
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
01:01:12
Almost, almost certainly I should say, I should say certainly we like this destination for a reason other than just this piece of property.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:01:19
Right.
01:01:19
And I mean, to me, if you're putting people in vans and taking them around, that's less traffic.
01:01:24
That's less worried about intoxicated driving while they visit our fine winery establishments.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
01:01:30
We will definitely be offering those kinds of excursions.
01:01:33
And it's just I'm laughing partly because we have a research and development center where our office is in Southfield, Michigan.
01:01:40
And it's like our CEO's playground of all of his visions of things.
01:01:45
And he collects, he has been collecting these vintage
01:01:49
like vans and like vintage vehicles.
01:01:51
that he ultimately wants to repurpose for exactly this reason.
01:01:55
So I wish he was here to hear you ask this question.
01:01:57
Keep telling him we're going to have to put new engines in them.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:02:00
That sounds charming.
01:02:01
And there is actually an antique car group that comes through the county every year, and they all go to Scottsville, the nearby town, and they all have lunch.
01:02:09
And all the streets are filled with vintage cars.
01:02:13
Oh, my god.
01:02:13
That would be one of those weekends.
01:02:15
You should have your folks come see that.
01:02:17
He would love that.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
01:02:18
He'll want to buy all of them.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:02:19
That's the problem.
01:02:20
Maybe he's driving around with them, I don't know.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
01:02:23
That's great.
01:02:24
And by the way, I have been flipping through the slides to provide some context in the architectural character to answer the question that was provided before.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:02:33
Other questions before we go?
01:02:34
Remember, you'll be able to ask again.
01:02:36
Any questions before we open up for public questions or public comment?
01:02:42
Just write it down.
01:02:43
You'll have another chance.
01:02:44
You'll have another chance.
01:02:47
Thank you.
01:02:47
We're going to open it up to see if there's anyone from the public or online who'd like to make comments on your project, please.
01:02:54
Thank you, commissioners.
01:02:57
Is there anyone here this evening who is signed up or who you don't have to be signed up, but who feels called to speak on this matter?
01:03:13
OK, I see a head shake over there from Mr. Fritz.
01:03:16
Is there anyone online, Carolyn?
SPEAKER_07
01:03:21
No, sir, there isn't.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:03:21
OK, then, sir, if you have a rare opportunity to come up here and tell us a little bit more.
01:03:27
You don't have a lot of time.
01:03:28
I think you have a couple of minutes to tell us.
01:03:29
If there's anything, or we have, can ask you additional questions.
01:03:34
If there's anything you want to show us.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
01:03:36
So I can go back to the beginning here, but I would like you to have the opportunity to just review some of the architectural precedent imagery
01:03:44
And if you had any comments that you'd like to provide on any of this just for us to take notes on, and we can address any of those questions as well.
01:03:50
So I'm just going to flip us slowly back through.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:03:52
Scroll down.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
01:03:55
Yes, excuse me.
01:03:56
I wish I don't have it on my screen.
01:03:58
I would happily zoom out.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:04:02
So while you're doing it, let me just be clear because your company is, as you mentioned, one of the, if not the industry leader in sort of RV sites and mobile home sites or manufactured home sites.
01:04:14
And so we're to understand that there will not be any RV pads at this location.
01:04:19
That's correct.
01:04:20
And we understand that there will not be manufactured homes in the
01:04:25
in quotes, as you have in a number of your other really lovely locations, a number of them which are in Virginia, in fact.
01:04:34
This will be like the place in Santa Barbara, which is actually quite handsome, I will give you that.
01:04:39
Thank you for that compliment.
01:04:41
And to answer your question, no, there will be no manufactured homes on the site.
01:04:43
OK, so no manufactured home and no RVs, no feedbacks.
01:04:47
And when people were talking about camping, I got shivers because as a Boy Scout, winter camping was the one thing that kept me from being an Eagle Scout.
01:04:56
And so the whole idea of having campsites out there, we're not doing that either.
01:05:03
Not exactly, no.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
01:05:05
Some people refer to this as glamping.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:05:07
Well, I appreciate that.
01:05:10
I just remember being in Jockey Hollow Trail with six inches of snow and that's okay for me.
01:05:15
So if anyone else wants.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:05:17
I had a bit of a follow up to my question on phasing.
01:05:21
And so you were giving us some of the rationale for your 250, I guess it was based on some of your other projects.
01:05:30
Correct.
01:05:31
Do you also see that as the max capacity for the site?
01:05:34
Yes.
01:05:35
That 250 is what this would hold?
01:05:36
Yes.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
01:05:37
And part of that is a result of the desire to contain the guest experience.
01:05:43
There's only so many sites that you can have before our ability to provide attention to people and to not overcrowd the property itself starts to become diminished.
01:05:55
Thank you.
01:05:56
Other questions?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:05:59
There's just one more question on sustainability or comment rather.
01:06:03
I assume, you know, you referenced, you know, habitat and I'm sure you know that our county has a biodiversity action plan that includes, you know, recommendations about prevention of preventing invasive species, encouraging the use of native plants.
01:06:21
other things like that.
01:06:24
I assume you're aware that if you are, I would encourage you to read that plan.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
01:06:28
So I haven't read it, but I'm aware of its existence.
01:06:31
And we're not strangers to having to accommodate the needs that are outlined in those biodiversity plans.
01:06:38
As an example, we have a project.
01:06:40
Granted, this was an RV resort that we developed in coastal San Diego.
01:06:45
It's located in the Chula Vista Master Plan Bayfront.
01:06:48
It is located adjacent to a National Wildlife Refuge.
01:06:51
We were required to create two 300 foot buffers around that property.
01:06:59
We had a 500 page set of conditions of approval that were necessary for us to make sure that we were complying with the biodiversity requirements of their master plan in the California Coastal Commission.
01:07:12
We've been able to work within those constraints and actually we encourage the information that's presented in them to help us with our planning.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:07:21
I mean, as a as a rural area resident, you know, we have big problems where I am with people who planted burning bush, or Nandina, and other commonly landscape shrubs that are not native that are actually taking over our countryside and present a big management problem.
01:07:37
So it's just a suggestion, I would encourage you to do whatever you can to commit to native plants as you you design your landscape.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
01:07:45
That's an excellent suggestion and our landscape architect EDSA is also very experienced when it comes to sort of working through these biodiversity plans that you're describing, understanding what's appropriate for the site.
01:07:58
and making sure that our landscape plan will be designed accordingly.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:08:02
If you want a good field trip, Devil's Backbone at Nelson County has an amazing landscape that's almost completely native plants that have done a great job showing how you can use native plants back the way.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:08:15
Thank you for that.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:08:16
And a resort.
01:08:17
And a resort, yeah.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:08:20
That's 151.
01:08:20
That's Route 151 in Nelson County, sort of one of our sister counties that has grown into distilleries and breweries and wineries.
01:08:33
So if you want to have a sense of what's on the southwestern side of the county, that might be a place for you to sort of spend a moment if you have a chance.
01:08:43
Thank you for that.
01:08:44
Look at the cideries.
01:08:45
Oh, yes, in the Saturdays.
01:08:47
We have all of the various ways for which you can smile at the end of your trip.
01:08:53
Anything else?
01:08:54
Anyone else?
01:08:56
Good question.
01:09:01
Thank you.
01:09:01
Thank you.
01:09:04
So on that, we are going to close the public hearing portion of this.
01:09:08
And we're going to commissioners.
01:09:13
And if, sir, if you would put up your, thank you.
01:09:16
Commissioners, are there any comments?
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:09:20
I'll just comment.
01:09:21
I feel like I need to say something before we have any motions or votes.
01:09:26
I am in support of this project.
01:09:28
And I want to elucidate some of the reasons why.
01:09:32
One of the reasons is, of course, I do believe we should have some accommodation in the rural area that allows people to appreciate it and doesn't have to send them all the way back to Charlottesville.
01:09:47
I also think that the buffers around the property make this particular site not a detriment to its neighbors.
01:09:57
I also don't believe that it will generate a tremendous amount of traffic.
01:10:03
There have been other, I'm just making these points because there have been other campsites that I have voted no against as well as other applicants that I've discouraged
01:10:15
from particular sites in the county for campsites.
01:10:18
And in those cases, they were sites that were on extremely narrow roads, roads that were almost not wide enough for one car to get by, much less a bus, and were also sites that would definitely impair the quietude and quiet enjoyment of the countryside by the neighbors.
01:10:36
So I just want to make that clear.
01:10:38
There's another site that we had that was a campsite also that was going to be very intensive use on a much smaller parcel.
01:10:47
So I'm saying that because I think that this site is different because it is large enough to accommodate the level of camp development that you envision.
01:10:59
And it does sound like you're trying to take advantage of the site as it is.
01:11:04
rather than sort of turning it into a Disney resort or something.
01:11:08
It's much more, it sounds to me to be respectful of the landscape.
01:11:12
And I mean, I laughed when you talked about people from DC coming to farm because my brother embarrasses me.
01:11:20
I have three brothers.
01:11:21
They all embarrass me when they come to my country house because they go and moo at the cows.
01:11:28
They do all the embarrassing things with the farms next door.
01:11:31
So.
01:11:33
Yeah, they don't tip anything, but they wouldn't even know how.
01:11:37
But those would be the people that would be coming to your farm.
01:11:42
So I think those people do need a place to go.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:11:49
Yeah, I mean, when I first looked at this, I had some concerns.
01:11:52
I mean, generally when I hear about 250 cabins, the first thing that comes to my mind is a lot of things that even the cabins are being built in state parks now are bigger than my house.
01:12:04
So I was really pleased to hear that these would be four to 600 square feet.
01:12:08
I would have a very different opinion if these were the size of my house or bigger than my house.
01:12:15
That would be a problem for me.
01:12:17
I appreciate that they're not going to have full kitchens in them.
01:12:19
That's another thing that we're not basically putting 250 houses there when the by right density of that property is not that.
01:12:30
I do have some concerns about water usage that even though we're not putting 250 full houses there, we are putting the water usage of 250 houses there.
01:12:41
So that's a little bit concerning.
01:12:44
I'm not sure how we address that, but
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:12:46
That is a concern.
01:12:48
You could.
01:12:49
I mean, the question is whether they'll have all the linens from all their bedding and whether they're going to be using an outside laundry service, you know, or whether they're putting the demand for that on the site.
01:13:00
I don't know.
01:13:02
That's the one.
01:13:04
Intensive laundry use.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:13:08
We are assuming that it would never happen all at one day.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:13:13
Yeah.
01:13:14
I do have, you know,
01:13:16
Every time I hear also a plan for someone says, oh, and we're going to keep, we're going to add this intensive use, but we're going to keep it agricultural.
01:13:25
I don't actually see that as a good thing because what you're doing is it means that we're still, we have a, we have a significant tax break for properties under land use valuations.
01:13:37
The County is losing a lot of money for those properties.
01:13:41
and so if you're sort of dipping from both sides, if you have this intensive use that you've added, but then Ross is still keeping that tax break, I do find that a little bit concerning.
01:13:54
So for me, it would be nice to know how much is being pulled out of land use and how do we deal with those regulations?
01:14:02
They're really built more around homes on agricultural sites than there are cabins on agricultural sites.
01:14:10
How does it play out on a site like this?
01:14:14
So just some thoughts.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:14:21
Seems like a very cool state park except fancier and presumably a different price point.
01:14:31
That's an interesting conversation about tax breaks for agricultural use for another time.
01:14:36
But yeah, I think it sounds quite interesting.
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:14:43
Like my fellow commissioners, when I first went through this, I was a little concerned about the density.
01:14:48
I do appreciate all the answering all our questions.
01:14:53
However, I thought more about this than I heard the presentation.
01:14:57
The diversity of use that this brings to our farm and rural areas, I mean, we're becoming pretty homogenized with wineries and distilleries.
01:15:10
And so the ecotourism, I think it's an important use that we can certainly bring to this county.
01:15:21
I like the fact that it's a different use that we don't have a lot of.
01:15:25
We certainly may have some small scale, but nothing like this.
01:15:29
And the educational piece, I think it's really important as well.
01:15:36
People can see the value of farms.
01:15:41
And so, yeah, the more I learned about it, the more I like this project.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:15:47
I did, one thing you reminded me, I didn't really hear if the applicant was going to have like any interpretive signage, like, you know, this is a native meadow, this is how it's managed, this is a forest, these are the important species that we find here.
01:16:00
Hopefully some of that, some guided nature walks, all that stuff.
01:16:05
Okay, all right.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:16:07
Well, I will just sort of add my own comments.
01:16:12
So for me, the tipping point
01:16:17
was the fact that this is a very serious and well-funded corporation.
01:16:24
And we have all seen great ideas that perhaps didn't have the cash flow behind them.
01:16:34
And so my sense was, when I started looking further, I will also just say, as I say, the company's website was slow to respond.
01:16:45
on certain issues.
01:16:46
And so I might suggest that in the future, before this goes before the supervisors, that perhaps there's some tuning of the website so that they don't become as annoyed as other people might become as they're trying to determine the validity of the information that's being presented to them.
01:17:05
but other than that there are other ways to find out about companies than their website and so for me when I saw this which I thought would have been an ambitious given some of the other things I was not I was feeling at this we actually might see this come to fruition and some of the things that we talked about for that
01:17:21
You know, in this area a couple of months ago, we looked at a large solar farm off of Secretary Road.
01:17:28
And then there's something going on on some other things in Blenheim in the county.
01:17:33
And so for me, this is feeling as if there's this wonderful opportunity in that part of our county to see different kinds of industry.
01:17:43
that actually can link in and have linkages to some of the people who live in this part of our community.
01:17:49
And so from that part for me, I'm seeing opportunities for some of our compatriots to have employment, to be able to invite their friends and neighbors to do something and have them with an easy striking distance from their homes.
01:18:06
And so for me, I was very excited to see that after I got around the
01:18:10
the non-responsive website.
01:18:13
And so I'm supportive of this too.
01:18:19
I'm supportive of this project, too, and have faith because of the ability of them to do some very interesting pieces.
01:18:26
If you do get to see the look at the one in Santa Barbara, it's done nicely.
01:18:32
And those among us who understand what it's like to try and deal with Southern California and the waterways there, we have a full appreciation what it's like to bring a project to completion in that part of our country.
01:18:48
We're the nice kids on the block compared to those regulations.
01:18:52
So unless anybody has anyone else to say.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:18:57
I'm willing to make a motion.
01:18:58
Would you please?
01:19:00
I move to recommend approval of SP202300005, Briary Creek Farm, Riveton Farm boarding camp with the conditions contained in attachment seven.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:19:13
Is there a second?
01:19:17
Second.
01:19:20
What we'll do is we'll come back and we'll deal with the water.
Andy Herrick
Deputy County Attorney
01:19:23
Right.
01:19:24
So there are two separate applications.
01:19:26
I think Ms.
01:19:26
Firehock went to the second one first.
01:19:29
No, that's fine.
01:19:29
So we've taken that one, but then there'll be a separate motion on the water.
01:19:33
Yes.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:19:34
I'm sorry.
01:19:35
I was scrolling too fast.
01:19:37
All right.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:19:38
So it's been properly moved.
01:19:40
It's been properly seconded by Mr. Murray.
01:19:43
Oh, but Mr. Moore.
01:19:45
They get you guys.
01:19:48
Can we have
01:19:50
Adam, would you call the roll?
SPEAKER_07
01:19:53
Yes.
01:19:55
Mr. Bivins?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:19:57
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
01:19:58
Mr. Carrazana?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:00
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
01:20:02
Ms.
01:20:03
Firehock?
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:05
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
01:20:06
Mr. Moore?
01:20:07
Aye.
01:20:10
Mr. Bivins?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:12
Aye again.
SPEAKER_07
01:20:14
I'm sorry.
01:20:15
I already called you.
01:20:15
I'm sorry.
01:20:16
Mr. Murray, I'm all confused today.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:20
Aye, if you didn't hear me.
SPEAKER_07
01:20:22
Thank you.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:23
Thank you.
01:20:24
That motion has been passed.
01:20:26
And could we see the second one, please?
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:29
All right.
01:20:30
I move to recommend approval of SP-20230004 Briary Creek Farm Reventon Farm water-related uses with the conditions contained in attachment six.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:42
Is there a second?
01:20:45
Second.
01:20:46
That's been moved and seconded.
01:20:47
Is there any further discussion?
01:20:50
Ma'am, would you please call the roll on this one?
SPEAKER_07
01:20:54
Yes.
01:20:54
Mr. Carrazana?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:20:57
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
01:20:58
Mr. Bivins?
Luis Carrazana
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:21:00
Aye.
SPEAKER_07
01:21:01
Ms.
01:21:01
Firehock?
01:21:02
Aye.
01:21:04
Mr. Murray?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:21:05
Aye.
SPEAKER_04
01:21:06
Mr. Moore?
01:21:06
Aye.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:21:10
Thank you.
01:21:11
Thank you.
01:21:11
So gentlemen, this has been moved from us to the supervisors.
01:21:15
I would suggest you sit with Mr. Fritz and make sure that you have a full appreciation of what you heard this evening.
01:21:21
Because remember, the supervisors get a transcript of what we say.
01:21:24
And so in the event that they have additional questions, I would suggest you spend some time working with Mr. Fritz to make sure that everybody is on the same page.
01:21:33
And I'll also be sharing this with Fluvanna.
01:21:35
Oh, with Fluvanna.
01:21:36
Oh, yes.
01:21:37
And our cousins in Fluvanna.
01:21:40
which is not Louisa who just got that huge, huge project just funded down there.
01:21:47
So thank you.
01:21:48
Go forth and have a good evening.
Bill Raffoul
Senior Vice President of Development
01:21:49
Thank you all for your feedback.
01:21:55
Mr. McDermott.
Kevin McDermott
01:22:01
Yes, thank you.
01:22:02
Quick review of the September 6th Board of Supervisors meeting.
01:22:07
We did go to them with the AC44 work session, same as what we had with you all the month prior to that, at the beginning of August.
01:22:19
And the Board of Supervisors essentially went along with all of your recommendations.
01:22:24
They had some, some good feedback, but agreed with, with the Planning Commission's recommendations on, on all those points.
01:22:34
It was a, it was a, it was a really good discussion.
01:22:36
Not quite as long as the one we had with you all, but, but very close.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:22:40
It was our project.
01:22:42
You should have the longest discussions with us.
Kevin McDermott
01:22:45
Absolutely.
01:22:46
So that went really well.
01:22:47
We are still going through all that information to make sure we captured everything that the board had to say.
01:22:55
The other items on that was there was a public hearing for the Maple Grove Church ZMA, which was the one up off Prophet Road, where they're splitting off that single parcel so that they can sell that.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:23:14
Outlying House, OK.
Kevin McDermott
01:23:15
Yes, exactly.
01:23:17
And no surprise, the board supported that that rezoning just the same as you all did.
01:23:25
And there was also a public hearing for a through truck restriction on Plank Road.
01:23:30
This was something that we have been working on with the community for a long time.
01:23:37
and the board did recommend a resolution requesting a through truck restriction on Plank Road be sent to the Commonwealth Transportation Board.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:23:49
That has to agree with it, right?
01:23:51
Yes.
01:23:52
We're just asking for it.
Kevin McDermott
01:23:53
We ask for it and then the state decides that they agree with us, they will grant that.
01:23:59
So we will be working with the Department of Transportation on that effort.
01:24:08
and that was really it for the September 6th board meeting.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:24:12
I'll say I looked at the board supervisor's materials that you presented to them and I thought it was really well done.
01:24:19
I liked how it included, sorry, it included our comments directly, you know, and there are changed language.
01:24:26
I think it was a great job by staff.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:24:30
Thank you.
01:24:31
Can I just, as a point of clarification in my own mind, so the Plank Road piece, are we talking about the piece that the fire department and the lumber mill and the distillery are on, or are we talking about the Plank Road piece, which is
Kevin McDermott
01:24:46
This is Plank Road going from 29 North Garden to the west over to 250.
01:24:53
That's the segment.
01:24:55
Sorry, I forgot that Plank Road does continue on the east side of 29 as well.
01:25:00
So no, this is only west from 29 over to 250.
01:25:03
So towards Batesville.
01:25:05
Exactly, right through Batesville.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:25:06
I knew that there was short-cutting occurring.
Kevin McDermott
01:25:09
Yes, exactly.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:25:11
I don't know why you would shortcut that way.
01:25:13
It's a crazy winding road.
01:25:14
Crazy winding road.
01:25:15
I wouldn't want to take, I can barely take my Subaru that way.
01:25:18
I wouldn't do it.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:25:19
I wouldn't do it.
01:25:20
Okay, thank you, Sam.
01:25:21
Well, I can definitely see people coming from over the mountain.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:25:23
Yeah, they just want to cut through.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:25:25
Come down and go over.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:25:26
Right, because they don't want to deal with anything.
01:25:29
They just want to zoom along.
01:25:31
I get it.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:25:32
Are there committee reports, commissioners?
01:25:35
We did not have quorum.
01:25:38
Oh no, your history of preservation didn't have a quorum.
01:25:41
Oh, they can't slip back into that.
01:25:43
They just can't slip back into that.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:25:44
Back to the void.
01:25:46
Anyone else?
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:25:50
The Hydraulic CAC, what is it called?
01:25:57
I always look to Kevin because he knows the right name.
Kevin McDermott
01:25:59
You are in the Places 29 Hydraulic CAC.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:26:02
The Places 29 Hydraulic, I want to just call it that.
01:26:05
We met last night and we had two very good presentations.
01:26:07
So one of them will come to us at some point, but we had by
01:26:12
Sandy Shackelford from, not WTJU, that's Nathan.
Kevin McDermott
01:26:17
bjpdc.npl.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:26:21
Okay, she came and had a great conversation about transportation long range planning with both the CAC members and also members of the community were there and I think there was some really good exchange that I think will be helpful for her and I think people felt as if they had an opportunity to sort of present something to a different level of government.
01:26:42
or a government agency.
01:26:44
And then we had a conversation about, which I do believe is coming to us, about High School Center 2, which is going to be located on the Albemarle High School campus, Lambs Lake campus.
01:26:58
And that was actually a very good conversation because I don't believe
01:27:02
for a number of people, A, they didn't know that they had centers.
01:27:05
And so there was some learning about that.
01:27:07
And two, we had an opportunity to talk, and it's been a while since this group's seen it, about some of the proposed traffic plans for the Lamb's Lane campus, which will get reintroduced to us when that comes.
01:27:20
And there's a rezoning that will come before us about putting the high school center two on the Albemarle County, on the Albemarle High School campus.
01:27:31
And so with that, sir, let's stop for May.
01:27:33
AC44 update?
Kevin McDermott
01:27:36
Yeah, beyond just the work session we held with the Board of Supervisors, a reminder that on October 10th, we will be holding our next work session with you all on the goals and objectives for natural historic resources and parks and recreation.
01:27:55
So that'll be coming to you.
01:27:57
We are working on our public outreach for those right now.
01:28:02
You can look on our website.
01:28:03
We've got a series of office hours that are scheduled where we will be in the building out in front of the lobby here during other events that are going on in lane.
01:28:15
So we're going to do that a couple times.
01:28:17
There's going to be some online engagement opportunities, questionnaires, things like that you can fill out.
01:28:22
And we're also doing pop-ups one that's coming up at the the Loop Deville celebration, which is the local celebration for the trail, the, the the RTF trail that goes around the city here.
01:28:37
And there's this is on National Trails Day, I believe, or National Public Lands Day on 924.
01:28:44
They're having a big celebration and we're going to be down at the Woolen Mills or Wool Factory where they're having one of those celebrations with our truck doing a pop-up, giving information and taking feedback from the public.
01:28:59
So those are some of the opportunities that the public has for engagement during this next phase.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:29:08
So some comments that have come up in the past several weeks around the comp plan have concerned questioning why there's not a toolkit
01:29:20
for sort of natural resources in the rural areas, that there are toolkits for all kinds of things.
01:29:27
And I guess I've seen that email traffic and people have made that comment.
01:29:31
So I'm just curious what the county's thoughts are on whether we need more information about natural resources in the form of a toolkit.
Kevin McDermott
01:29:41
Yeah, so, and I did, I think there was an email that came from
01:29:49
from the commission that I responded to.
01:29:51
I think you all saw that.
01:29:53
Essentially our idea is this, that the toolkits aren't just about
01:29:59
new development and how we can encourage new development or allow new development.
01:30:03
It's also intended to be about how we're protecting the environment.
01:30:07
So those toolkits though, we call them land use toolkits.
01:30:11
The land use may be related to the protection of certain resources as well, not just development of land, so protection of land.
01:30:22
So that's really how we're looking at it.
01:30:24
These, um,
01:30:26
The guidance we got from the commission and the board allows us to know like well what types of things are we interested in guiding and that's what we're working on and now we're setting up how that guidance is going to work and that guidance would include protection of resources.
Karen Firehock
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:30:46
I still hope we'll have a robust conversation about, we have talked about the idea of the rural area, and it's just this, you know, this giant mass, the rural area, and yet there's really distinct characteristics and different types of things going on in different parts of the county's rural area.
01:31:04
I just hope that we can dig in a little deeper there.
Kevin McDermott
01:31:08
We will be getting into that stuff in this next phase.
01:31:11
So thank you.
Lonnie Murray
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:31:13
I mean, just adding in on that, I did listen in on the Board of Supervisors meeting when they discussed these toolkits.
01:31:25
And there was a lot of really great comments.
01:31:27
If you haven't all listened to that meeting, it's really worth listening to.
01:31:30
One of the great comments, I believe it was Supervisor Andrews made, was he talked about the current comprehensive plan and how it's structured in order of importance and how
01:31:41
Natural Resources is actually one of the top sections because it was considered to be the most important.
01:31:48
And same thing with the rural areas, it was structured very close to the front because it was considered primary importance.
01:31:54
And my concern about the toolkits is that they relegate natural resource protection to be secondary in relation to some other use.
01:32:05
and so I think you come at very different solutions and you come up with very different ideas when you're thinking not what is the impact of natural resources
01:32:17
from housing or from this or from that.
01:32:19
And you think, well, how can we just start from the perspective of natural resources?
01:32:24
How do we protect these?
01:32:25
Or how do we start from the perspective of the rural areas and talk about protecting the rural area as opposed to framing it in the context of other uses?
Kevin McDermott
01:32:38
Understood.
01:32:38
And we will have a broader discussion about that at the next work session we have.
Nathan Moore
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:32:47
Just a quick report from the Rio CAC as well.
01:32:51
Also had a presentation and conversation around long-range transportation planning, so they're making the rounds.
01:32:57
But also there was a request from a developer to rezone four parcels kind of between Burkemar and Woodburn, just up Woodburg Road, and kind of actually butst up to the back entrance to Agnahurt.
01:33:11
for about seven acres to build more than 200 residential units.
01:33:15
It's an apartment complex and has actually, it's a property that actually is a good candidate for redevelopment.
01:33:27
And the committee, the community advisory committee, honestly, mostly was, you know, they asked questions, but it was like, oh, it's actually kind of sounds good, gets to walk to school.
01:33:35
All right.
01:33:37
But you know, we'll see.
01:33:39
There's the usual concerns about this and that.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:33:44
I would be remiss if I didn't sort of channel our chair, who will ask, are we looking for opportunities to get different kinds of voices, particularly around the park and recreation pieces?
01:33:55
So when we're looking at outreach, we're in football season.
01:34:02
So if there was a way to get the van to the various football places or soccer places, you would have an opportunity to talk to some young people.
01:34:14
Plus, I understand.
01:34:15
Now, I don't know if this is happening at the other two schools, but I do believe it is.
01:34:19
I do know that it's happening at the Journeys of the Middle School, right?
01:34:24
Yeah, Journeys of the Middle School.
01:34:25
But there actually are some fifth graders who are talking about civic involvement.
01:34:30
And so wouldn't it be interesting to have fifth graders have an opportunity to talk about what parks and recreation, parks and that kind of recreation means to them.
01:34:42
And then the third thing I would recommend is that we do sell season passes.
01:34:47
So perhaps we already have a built-in group of people who go to the various parks around here.
01:34:51
I assume we do those passes.
01:34:55
I believe there are season passes for the swim beaches, yes.
01:34:59
That would be a natural group of people to sort of tag them up to ask them how would you like to, how would you like, so we've got data which we might have easy access to and we have locations which is that time of the year where they're marching bands and doing all those kinds of things so just so you have some opportunities to bring a diverse or an eclectic group of people into this part of the conversation and that's for you Corey.
01:35:28
Anything else?
Kevin McDermott
01:35:29
Anything else?
01:35:30
Great suggestions.
01:35:31
Thank you, Commissioner Bivins.
01:35:33
We'll walk those opportunities over.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:35:40
We are about to adjourn this meeting and we will regather on Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 6 o'clock in this room.
Kevin McDermott
01:35:51
No, that is a work session evening.
01:35:53
Oh, we're going to be over there?
01:35:54
So, we are going to be in this room but at 4 o'clock.
01:35:57
What's at 4 o'clock?
01:35:58
We'll have a 4 to 530 work session on the Riparian Buffer Overlay District.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:36:05
The riparian buffer overlay district.
Kevin McDermott
01:36:10
This is a ZTA that we are working on right now.
01:36:14
So, there's a work session on that on at our next meeting.
01:36:17
Twenty-six.
Julian Bivins
Commissioner, Planning Commission
01:36:18
At four o'clock in this room.
01:36:20
Correct.
01:36:21
Alright.
01:36:22
Hearing no objections.
01:36:25
See you all then.