Planning Commission Regular Meeting   2/14/2023

Yeah.

Madam Clerk, would you mind calling the roll?

Mr. Missel?

Here.

Mr. Carrazana?

Here.

Mr. Bivins?

Here.

And Mr. Murray?

Here.

And of course, Mr. Clayborne.

I'd like to ask the commission, is there any modifications or changes required to the meeting minutes?

No, sir.

Madam Clerk?

Yes, Mr. Murray?

Aye.

Mr. Clayborne?

Aye.

Mr. Missel?

Aye.

Mr. Carrazana?

Aye.

Mr. Bivins?

Aye.

Thank you.

And with that, I'll ask for the staff report.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you, Mr. Reidelbach for the presentation.

Commission, any questions for staff?

So three units total, and if they were to do the dwellings as is laid out in the comp plan or the land use plan, how many would that necessarily be?

probably 20 or so.

Around 20, is that what the bonus of even if they put this afford, if they even included affordable, the number of affordable units, would that also, would that push it up a bit?

It would be a bit more if they've used any of the bonus density.

or Hathaway Street.

If they did by right, the applicant may be able to explain better, but it would be likely that the three by right units would get access from Avon Street as there are a few existing driveways onto those parcels, but any type of rezoning would likely need access from Hathaway Street.

And that's a public road.

Hathaway is public, yes.

Any other questions for Steph?

But has the ARB weighed in on this at all?

So the setbacks that are identified in the concept plan, the applicant would have to meet those setbacks.

Got it.

All your questions answered.

Thank you.

Any other questions?

Can you just walk us through the thinking on, particularly the one on Hathaway, why did staff feel that that was potentially one that we can accept?

So they are providing sidewalk and staff didn't see there to be a need for a planting strip as well.

Thank you.

Did staff have any concerns with the fact that the adjoining property is not controlled by this applicant?

And so based on those numbers and the calculations, Fire Rescue had no concerns about a second access not being provided.

Okay.

And the floor is yours.

It is not.

You've gone to split screens here.

Okay, I had a couple of minutes.

Do I have a couple of minutes?

I can give you an extra minute.

So happy Valentine's Day to y'all and to my brother.

Commissioner, Lonnie, do you have any questions?

They said that they had challenges with the water pressure in the neighborhood that you'd be traveling through and the concern about additional demands on that.

But for those out there, we will not have an impact on your water pressure.

Thank you.

Commissioner Missel, do you have any questions?

Thank you.

I don't believe we're hearing that you're part of the public service district.

We are tied to that system and it's only sort of fault in that zone is the pressure is just not as high as it would be desired.

Any other questions, Commissioner Bivins?

I do, but I can wait until he hears until they hear and come back to something.

Could you share a little bit about where the affordable housing might be within the concept plan?

So we'd have probably the four here plus some of these other townhomes are in the rental.

But have it mixed in with everyone else.

Could I comment on that?

Sure.

Yeah, so that's a trade-off of going away from putting them in one unit if they use the land trust model, which I would hope they would because every time we approve affordable housing, it's just temporary, the way that ends up being.

plan to bring to that, or was the thinking behind mass transit?

And I think the more riders there are to access that, the sooner the vision can come to reality.

Please share your name and just general area of where you're coming from.

And Marlo, he's right here.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for your time.

Nish Nodrell, hopefully I'm saying that correctly.

Good evening, everyone.

Thank you very much.

All right, thank you.

Sarah Meister.

Thank you.

I am Peter Meister.

All right, thank you.

Shelly Pelish, Leigh Ann Skipper, Andrew Hodon, Ashley Lady.

So let's take them up on their offer.

Leanne Skipper.

So we want to make sure that it's cared for and constructed appropriately.

Good evening.

Thank you all.

Well, thank you.

Is there anyone else here that would like to speak?

You just say your name.

I'm sorry that you're hearing that continuously, but it is a problem.

Can you share your name one more time?

Thank you.

Is there anyone online that would like to speak?

Please state your name and address if you're affiliated with a group or organization, and you'll have three minutes to speak and your time will start as soon as you start speaking.

Thank you.

And your time starts when you start speaking.

Thank you.

Ashley, please state your name, address if you're affiliated with a group or organization, and your time starts as soon as you start speaking.

Thank you in advance for your willingness to address our community's concerns.

And that starts as soon as you start speaking.

Dennis, can you unmute, please?

Dennis, can you please unmute yourself so we can hear you?

Can you hear me now?

Yes.

Thanks very much for your attention.

I don't have anybody else with their hand raised at this time.

Thank you.

Any last questions?

Any last questions?

Is that because you're assuming more single-family residential, which has a higher trip generation per unit?

That's right.

Okay, thank you.

Any other questions for the applicant?

the public side, let's just look at, let's do that first.

But so I think that was just an element of sort of maximizing the width of the green space in that area was the logic behind that.

Well, if it's rental, it's up to your, it's up to the applicant to put whatever they do, if it's sold, that's a different question.

Yeah, I mean, I think the waiver for the ones, it's sort of adjacent to the green space on the other side, the private street.

I don't think we have a

You guys have an exhibit and staff.

It has proposed to be waved, and then the yellow part is proposed to be the sidewalk and the planning to be waved, because I've got this mustard colored on the top part and the avocado color on the bottom part on this exhibition.

I remember seeing it earlier, but... Attachment eight.

Yeah.

We just didn't see any value in having a sidewalk on the round because, again, it just took away from green space that could be used better, in our opinion.

So can you talk a bit about how that might be mitigated up here?

We will have our own amenities.

How long will the length of Hathaway Street?

Yeah, to our length of Hathaway Street.

Here's where it starts.

And you're attaching that, you're concatenating that too?

The current length, which is, we had their site plan up earlier.

Okay, that's fine.

Okay, then I'll ask staff a question about what kind of mitigations need to be put in place.

1100 foot road, public road, if any.

the logic there because I'm not quite understanding just because there's a green strip but you have the sidewalk.

We thought it was just more valuable to have that space there.

Any other questions for the applicant?

I'm just saying, would they be able to sit on a bench and watch the butterflies or whatever?

but it's not unavailable for folks to use.

Anyway.

It is managed critical slopes.

There's sort of requirements under.

And so are you requesting that those managed slopes be impacted or is that something that you would handle at staff level with a site plan?

Thank you.

Last call for questions.

Is there a reason why you decided to fracture the green space up into multiple pieces as opposed to consolidating in one space?

a guideline we go by from zoning ordinance and so we sort of pick that as our active which is that central green space and the rest of it is accessory to that I guess so sometimes we'll put it all together but it's sometimes also nice to have a couple zones where you just sort of replant trees there becomes a little wooded area.

She really liked the idea of small intimate like green spaces split up throughout the community that could be accessed and so that and that they could have different characters and like each one of them so that was really that was kind of an idea that she brought to us from the initial design phase and so I'd say that was also in addition to all the requirements and you know engineering side of things that we have to adhere to that was like an original tenant that she brought to us to move forward with with design.

Thank you.

And could you speak to that, please?

We realize that's an inconvenience for folks, but I think I don't want to stand here and make a promise that I think is likely to be broken by the contractors down the road because it's difficult to pull off.

With that, we'll close the public hearing.

initial thoughts, reactions, concepts to wrestle with.

And I was wondering, sometimes you have access to VDOT information, and I was hoping you had access to VDOT information to tell us about that intersection if possible, or that driveway coming into Avon Street.

I don't know if that road has actually been in for a full seven years yet, but I did not see a single accident at the intersection.

And if you could bring some experience or just sort of validate or bring your opinion to whether or not that's something that a public road of some length has to have applied to it.

So I would expect that's not a standard.

All right.

Any initial thoughts or actions that you want to put forth?

I'd like to skip for now.

So go ahead and tell me your thoughts.

No, I do not.

Firehock's comments, is consistent with the comp plan.

But I too will support, not support it at this level, but would support it at a different level.

You want to comment?

And I don't see that here.

Does the commissioner from this district wish to make a motion in their support or against?

That's me, right?

Mr. Chair.

Can I approach for one second?

I think we're beyond that.

So if we could request deferral, I will revise our plan and come back.

Council, does a date need to be set, or can it be indefinite?

It's preferable to set a date, but not required.

Would you like to set a date, sir?

They'll give us time to make some revisions, coordinate with the staff, and then they can bring a report back to you.

I think you heard some interest in that.

Right.

It just said that it looks like May 9th is the closest meeting to three months out, if that's available.

I'm trying to check my calendar now to see if we have something.

Can we say by June 1, if not earlier?

Yeah, it doesn't have to be on a date, correct?

By June 1, if not earlier.

Like a date of commission.

All right.

I think that we would actually recommend or prefer that we don't have a date, that we leave this open so that we can have the time to discuss and make sure we get this on the appropriate time without having to come back for a second deferral if that happened.

Is there a motion from the commission?

ZMA 2022-4, 1906 Avon Street extended to a date to be determined.

And Commissioner Missel, would that also include a motion to defer the two related requests for waiver?

Yes.

OK.

Any additional discussion?

I look forward to the better proposal.

With that, Madam Clerk, can you call the roll?

Mr. Murray?

Aye.

Mr. Bivins?

Aye.

Mr. Carrazana?

Aye.

Mr. Missel?

Aye.

Mr. Clayborne?

Aye.

Thank you.

And we'll turn this over to Mr. Videlbach, who's had a long night tonight, for the staff report.

Thank you.

Good evening, commissioners.

businesses, including the Dr. Ho's Humble Pie Pizza Parlor, the bank branch, a gas station, and a convenience store, as well as several institutional uses south of Plank Road across from the Crossroads Corner Shops, including the North Garden Post Office and the North Garden Volunteer Fire Station.

Well, it's the best.

And then the fourth factor is consistency with the comprehensive plan and whether the special use is consistent with what the comprehensive plan recommends.

So in looking at those four factors,

All right.

Sorry, Mr. Bivins?

From the applicant's desire, it looks like they want 12 rooms added on to the five current rooms.

Yes, so they're-

There are seven rooms currently being operated at the inn.

OK, good.

12 are proposed in the cottage structures, two in the schoolhouse and chapel structure, one in the summer kitchen, and then four in the existing inn and tavern.

But yeah, page three, the third paragraph, last line, and the third paragraph.

The white being the rural area zoning district and the yellow being the village residential zoning district.

Is that where you're pointing us to?

Yeah, so the split zone parcel is this one right here, 8627.

Thank you.

Any other questions for Steph?

Yeah, so this is a question about one of your conditions recommended 1B.

Anyway, I wrote down 1B.

I just want to

Certainly the language can be more fine-tuned prior to going to the Board of Supervisors to make that clearer or just really emphasize that intent that the verandas and porches are not to be enclosed spaces.

OK, thanks.

Commissioner Missel.

I think those are the setbacks, I assume, right?

Yes, those are to depict the setback lines.

Is that because the setback does not apply to Travelways?

Those are for structures.

Do you feel like there's enough room between what's proposed as Ridge Road and the property boundary?

It seems like from the concept plan, but of course that is also something that would have to be determined at site planning and any sorts of conditions or requirements on that would be reviewed at site plan as well to ensure that those can be met.

What did you want us to take away from that reference?

That was really just to provide more information on Village Residential and what the surrounding zoning is and what uses could be there because Village Residential is not really a zoning district that we see often or that we work with often so just to provide that additional information.

something that was brought up and I can ask the applicant that too.

I am not sure if one's been done or not but the applicant may have better information on that.

Thank you.

Commissioner Murray.

So, if this was developed for residential uses, what would be the amount of homes that could potentially be there?

So at four acres, it would be two houses on two acres, one house, two acres.

You know, there was one question, one comment that we had received that suggested that those be specified as native screening shrubs.

So at this point, it is recommendation from staff to use native plants, but it is not something that we can require.

All right.

So I'll turn it over to you, and the floor is yours.

Thank you, Andy, for that wonderful recap of the plan that will make this portion a little quicker and easier.

Is it different?

to slow people down or to stop them as we feel that intersection is a danger and that some change should be made.

Mr. Missel and then anyone thereafter?

Have you done an archaeological survey of the site?

And additionally, Ben Ford is an archaeologist that we've already spoken to, who has all but agreed to serve at his site.

Did they consider cultural landscape in terms of the larger picture or the bigger picture and this being part of a larger landscape?

who may be first visiting the site.

So being built, when was it, 1820?

1820, and then the schoolhouse is 1790.

And part of the cultural landscape piece is the potential for burial grounds on the property.

Yeah.

You haven't, you're not aware of any.

Having said that, the cemetery on site, while it is the Sutherland family cemetery, it does have unmarked, it does have markers that are unknown and the hope would be is that if there were any buried slaves that they would be in that section.

Can you tell us a little bit about conversations you may or may not have had concerning connectivity to Pippin Hill from this property internally?

So that was how that got removed and changed.

So when you say your owner's cottage has the Andrews, is that the Andrews that's connected to Pippin Hill?

Yes.

You intimated that there is a separate ownership between these two properties now?

There's not a separate ownership, but they are two separate operating entities from an LLC legal.

But the LLC location on this is at Pippen Hill.

It is under Pippin Farmhouse.

Which is something else?

Yes.

which is the address for this property.

Sure, and this is Pippen Farmhouse, which is a separate address, separate LLC.

On Pippenhill Lane.

Yes, LLC.

And that's the nexus between the Andrews guy?

Yes.

Okay.

Jim Stern is the owner for 20 years from 2000-ish to until we purchased in August of 22.

Sure, sure.

And when I say that we want to do our own historical research is that we don't want to rely on the word of mouth from the formal owner, Jim Stern.

And I will be quiet for right now, but we'll come back to something.

And when I say operations, I do mean how do we as a business safely get them from one place to the other if we are aware of that connection.

Yeah.

So just want to confirm what I'm hearing that you would expect if there was a wedding at Pippin Hill, some guests would stay at the end.

And then if they're attending a cooking class, it's easy for us to kind of have that conversation with them on arrival.

Okay thank you.

Any other questions for the applicant?

Could you talk a little bit about that and how you're interested in doing more for biodiversity on your property?

Thanks.

So how, like if I'm a guest there, how much space is the interior space?

And the rooms currently at the inn that were already, that have queen beds are

So if I was to book into one of these rooms, I would get a 1200 square foot room, which is like a bed, the bathroom, and a little table couch area.

the three keys would become two keys.

I know you say you're going to mimic or try to, well, not exactly match the inn because you don't want to confuse the periods of history, but I'm just trying to get a sense of how tall these things are.

Not to say that the cottages will be that tall, but to kind of best inform our plantings that they would have full coverage, particularly of roof lines and sight lines.

So what is your thinking on the colors and the blending of the material, you know, so the materials feel like they're more part of the landscape, even though they're brand new buildings?